BSV Forum - General - Off-Topic
New Season Eight Thread Now That Spike Arrived!!
The old thread is so long, I can barely get to the bottom, so how about a new thread in honor of Spike's arrival? 
For those who didn't know yet, a one page preview of #36 is out now with SPIKE in it!!!! Here it is:
For those who didn't know yet, a one page preview of #36 is out now with SPIKE in it!!!! Here it is:
Just what the heck does "what she feels must be pure" mean with what we saw in the last arc?
LOVE Spike with his laptop and that he has been involved on some level -
Does that older man making his costume look like the character that was working with Giles in the Faith-Giles arc?
Can you make out that image that has the face on it - looks like the word ON but it could be just as easily be something else entirely. That face reminds me of Andrew or Dawn.
creepy image of Angel putting on that mask -
LOVE Spike with his laptop and that he has been involved on some level -
Does that older man making his costume look like the character that was working with Giles in the Faith-Giles arc?
Can you make out that image that has the face on it - looks like the word ON but it could be just as easily be something else entirely. That face reminds me of Andrew or Dawn.
creepy image of Angel putting on that mask -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 25 2010 03:38 pm #3slaymesoftly
Moderator
nmcil - I'm guessing it means that she must hate/fear/be really pissed off at Twilight in order for it to succeed. If she knows he's Angel, her feelings for Angel could/woud affect her ability to fight against him. Hence the big secret. So, seems like the plan is for Angel to front all Buffy's enemies so as to manage the war to keep her safe.
Yay for Spike immediately recognizing him!
Yay for Spike immediately recognizing him!
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Does that older man making his costume look like the character that was working with Giles in the Faith-Giles arc?
No, he looks more like the guy in Living Doll where Dawn turns into a doll.
No, he looks more like the guy in Living Doll where Dawn turns into a doll.
Thanks - that does make it easier to understand -
The first thing that I am asking myself is - why would all this great new change and all the "protect Buffy and take her away" have to be based on all that extreme anger and violence?
And with the Geppetto look-a-like, the obvious reference would be someone being played and manipulated and the subtext of the story, the marionette that escapes his strings and eventually becomes human. What JW intends, we have to wait until September. But with Spike coming into the scene in his Sea and Sky Ship and the complete difference in technology that is shown for Angel, the antique sewing machine, and Spike with his laptop - it's an interesting presentation. With Angel and his mentor, it's so much founded on no communication and secrets - the laptop it the iconic symbol of the exact opposite, communication and knowledge at your fingertips.
The first thing that I am asking myself is - why would all this great new change and all the "protect Buffy and take her away" have to be based on all that extreme anger and violence?
And with the Geppetto look-a-like, the obvious reference would be someone being played and manipulated and the subtext of the story, the marionette that escapes his strings and eventually becomes human. What JW intends, we have to wait until September. But with Spike coming into the scene in his Sea and Sky Ship and the complete difference in technology that is shown for Angel, the antique sewing machine, and Spike with his laptop - it's an interesting presentation. With Angel and his mentor, it's so much founded on no communication and secrets - the laptop it the iconic symbol of the exact opposite, communication and knowledge at your fingertips.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 25 2010 08:01 pm #6The Enemy of Reality
Thank you for posting the preview here, sosa lola! The link didn't work for me. I love the image of Spike with the laptop, and that he recognised Angel right away is just brilliant. The whole 'vampire rights' thing reminds me of True Blood. I find it kind of amusing that the Slayers are hated and feared whereas the vamps are 'good guys' in this universe. Very ironic on Joss' part since his whole aim of vamps on the show was to make them ugly monsters/animals that deserved to be slain (except the Fanged Four, who had more layers, but I'm sure it wasn't his intention to make them so popular).
Slayers destroyed a whole town, now stealing, and using guns and killing, I can understand why they're hated. Vampires weren't a big deal until Angel, a vampire, saved LA from Hell and then we have Harmony on TV being "unfairly" attacked by an angry Slayer.
Jun 25 2010 08:59 pm #8The Enemy of Reality
Yup, I can understand it too and I find it interesting. I like that the roles have been reversed albeit it's all the work of media, not necessarily true. I bet the vamps are still as evil as ever. The Slayers aren't explicitly good though, the choices Buffy made in the comics are morally ambiguous (e.g. robbing the bank) and they seem to have that superiority complex Buffy had been accused of in "Conversations with dead people' by the Holden Webster fledge. Wasn't there a group of rogue Slayers that was all about being superioir to the normal populace? The leader was a punk chick if I remember it well, though I may be wrong about their motivations since it's been a long time I read that issue... also, only read it once.
Here is a study I did for the new "The Devil You Know" Spike & Eddie Hope -
Large Image: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4739403844_171d072e47_b.jpg
Second Study - Large Image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4738853135/sizes/l/
Large Image: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4739403844_171d072e47_b.jpg
Second Study - Large Image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4738853135/sizes/l/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Excerpt from the Slayalive Brain Lynch Spine mini series - sounds like he has a very good plan for Spike and how he will connect with Buffy S8.
The Q&A is good and much more informative than others -
http://slayaliveforums.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=angelseason6&action=display&thread=11257&page=1
YES, absolutely. I love some of the new goings on of the survivors of AFTER THE FALL (in the first five pages, you all are gonna look at a different character VERY differently), but I'm most looking forward to your reaction to the last four or so pages of issue 1. It sets something up that could be really interesting, might piss some people off, but will lead to big, great things in the arc.
The Q&A is good and much more informative than others -
http://slayaliveforums.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=angelseason6&action=display&thread=11257&page=1
| Do you have a favourite scene that you've written thus far for the Spike series or anything that you're really looking forward to seeing/hearing fan reactions about? |
YES, absolutely. I love some of the new goings on of the survivors of AFTER THE FALL (in the first five pages, you all are gonna look at a different character VERY differently), but I'm most looking forward to your reaction to the last four or so pages of issue 1. It sets something up that could be really interesting, might piss some people off, but will lead to big, great things in the arc.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Solicitation for #37
[B][URL="http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/16-673/Buffy-the-Vampire-Slayer-37-Last-Gleaming-part-2-Georges-Jeanty-cover"]Buffy the Vampire Slayer #37: Last Gleaming part 2 (Georges Jeanty cover)[/URL][/B]
Writer: Joss Whedon
Penciller: Georges Jeanty
Inker: Andy Owens
Colorist: Michelle Madsen
Cover Artist: Georges Jeanty
Genre: Action/Adventure
Spike and Buffy are finally reunited (*sigh*) and lucky him-he's discovered the source of all her problems, and it's not Angel. Now Buffy must revisit the place where love was indiscriminate, the Scoobies were formed, and Hell's mouth was closed for good.
Joss Whedon and Georges Jeanty launch readers into the finale of Buffy Season Eight, promising more adventure, twists, and turns. Bonds are tested, lives altered, and oh!-the fate of humanity hangs in the balance.
Joss Whedon writes the series finale!
Publication Date: October 06, 2010
Format: FC, 40 pages
Price: $2.99
UPC: 7 61568 14111 5 03721
Spike and Buffy are finally reunited (*sigh*)
The sigh made me laugh. But the Spuffy fan in me is dancing with happiness.
and lucky him-he's discovered the source of all her problems, and it's not Angel.
#36 is gonna be either so good or so bad. I'm really hoping for a good explanation.
Now Buffy must revisit the place where love was indiscriminate, the Scoobies were formed, and Hell's mouth was closed for good.
Sunnydale!!! The Long Way Home, I love how the title of the first arc is also about the whole season.
Jul 18 2010 07:18 am #13coalitiongirl
Interview with Bill Williams here, somewhat about Spike and the Angel comics.
Just thought I'd share this:
Just thought I'd share this:
Q: How much creative control do you have?
BW: One of the scenes I had to cut was a splash with Spike holding a demon informant upside-down in a toilet as he asks him for information. The grilling-the-stoolie scene is a staple of detective fiction and every fourth Batman comic book seems to have him dangling some lowlife off of a high-rise. But I was told that Spike was a hero and that kind of behavior was out of bounds. No using a green-skinned informant as a demonic toilet brush for my little script.
I cut it upon request. When you have no ownership stake or control, the changes get made even if they alter the flow of the story. The rights holders have a duty to maintain the properties they manage. So I rewrote the scene and a new scene appears in the third issue. It is part of the job and if you can't make changes at the request of the client, this type of writing might not be the line of work for you.
Hero or not, that's such a Spike thing to do. Personally, I don't find that as loathsome as him shagging that female vamp who ended up killing her friend in a turning gone bad. I'd rather see him use the demon informant as a toilet brush.
Jul 18 2010 03:06 pm #15slaymesoftly
Moderator
I agree, MP. It's very much a Spike thing to do. Not to mention, in canon Buffy has tortured vamps for info, Angel is not above behavior like that, and so on. That sounds pretty silly to me.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Jul 18 2010 08:41 pm #16Anca
Guest
Since when is Spike into torture? Big thanks from me to the *rights owners* who wanted out that scene.
Spike doesn't have a darned thing against torture. He just usually lets others do his torturing for him. So the scene would be more like Spike standing around letting his minions plunge the informant's head into the toilet.
One good thing from the Spike Fan perspective is see that at last Spike is recognized by the franchise owners as a Hero Model whose image needs to be protected.
The Big Magilla heroes from what I see in the Marketing and PR are Angel and Buffy - these two tortured without any hesitation -
One of the most brutal of any scenes, in the entire series for me, was seeing Giles torture Ethane in the Holloween episode. Willow, if I have it right, tortures in Season 8 as does Buffy -
How I hate all the wait for the final JW concluding arc for Season 8 -
The Big Magilla heroes from what I see in the Marketing and PR are Angel and Buffy - these two tortured without any hesitation -
One of the most brutal of any scenes, in the entire series for me, was seeing Giles torture Ethane in the Holloween episode. Willow, if I have it right, tortures in Season 8 as does Buffy -
How I hate all the wait for the final JW concluding arc for Season 8 -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
One more month! God, I can't wait any longer, I wanna know what's gonna happen next.
Jul 20 2010 06:36 pm #20Anca
Guest
Purely speculation from my part. "The right holders" - meaning Fox Licensing or whatever - they have to approve both Buffy and Angel comics. Somebody at Fox knows the general direction of the stories (including Joss Whedon). There's a lot of talk everywhere how Angel's character is totally trashed. I'm sure the complains were heard also for Spike's character treatment over at IDW. They cannot/don't want to impose to Whedon a darn thing, but to a newbie like Williams..or to force Mariah Huehner (editor) at IDW to make a statement. Fox is after pleased customers after all.
Well, as much as Spike fans, or a great many of the Angelverse comic book readers who totally hate what Bill Willingham is doing to the Spike character - guess who is splashed all over the TV screen from The New York Times Graphic Novel outstanding writer? Bill Willingham and his "Fables" - with this kind of recognition, Mr. Willingham could care less what the Spike fans think of his work.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jul 22 2010 02:23 am #22Spikez_tart
Not to totally hijack the forum, but I just got an email from Amazon for Buffy Season 8 "official motion comic." Has anyone seen this yet???
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 22 2010 03:10 am #23ghostyouknow27
I've been heavily warned off reading the Angel comics. I wasn't too thrilled with what I read of Spike: After the Fall. Or most of Season 8, for that matter.
I'm looking forward to #37, kinda despite myself. I miss Sunnydale.
I'm looking forward to #37, kinda despite myself. I miss Sunnydale.
Jul 22 2010 06:33 am #24coalitiongirl
Spikez_tart, I saw the free preview on iTunes. It didn't really excite me, but then, the comics rarely do anymore. We need new material to mock and hate already! 
I did find this review on them, for those who are interested.
I did find this review on them, for those who are interested.
Jul 23 2010 03:41 am #25Spikez_tart
Thanks CG - guess I can break loose with 99 cents to try one out. I missed a lot of the first comics for S8. We do need new material. We've chewed S8 (and all the others) over pretty good at this point.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 27 2010 08:12 am #26ladycat713
Guest
Here's a bit of cross promotion they're doing
http://www.myjones.com/limited/buffy
I hate that they are mucking up my favorite soda with this though. It has six flavors, Buffy, Dawn as a centaur, Twilight , Xander, Willow , and Giles.
Pre season 8 I wouldn't have minded but they irrevocably ruined characters for me . Buffy has been reeinforced as a user with no remorse who'd corrupting people and who's willing to throw away everything to screw Angel, Willow's cheating on her girlfriend., Dawn's shown in the middle of her punishment for cheating (which I maintain was unecessary to have her go through changes, she's a key , they could've had loosing her virginity trigger changes because of blood loss,) Angel as Twilight in full I know what's best mode. Xander and Giles come off better though I wonder what the whole Drac deal was and you end up wanting Giles to bitchslap Buffy back to being someone you found likeable or potentially likeable.
http://www.myjones.com/limited/buffy
I hate that they are mucking up my favorite soda with this though. It has six flavors, Buffy, Dawn as a centaur, Twilight , Xander, Willow , and Giles.
Pre season 8 I wouldn't have minded but they irrevocably ruined characters for me . Buffy has been reeinforced as a user with no remorse who'd corrupting people and who's willing to throw away everything to screw Angel, Willow's cheating on her girlfriend., Dawn's shown in the middle of her punishment for cheating (which I maintain was unecessary to have her go through changes, she's a key , they could've had loosing her virginity trigger changes because of blood loss,) Angel as Twilight in full I know what's best mode. Xander and Giles come off better though I wonder what the whole Drac deal was and you end up wanting Giles to bitchslap Buffy back to being someone you found likeable or potentially likeable.
Jul 28 2010 02:42 am #27Spikez_tart
you end up wanting Giles to bitchslap Buffy back to being someone you found likeable or potentially likeable - It's hard to imagine how he can restrain himself sometimes. LOL
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Excerpt from IDW Forum regarding the changes for Angel and info on the new Spike series and Illyria. I would love to see a really good exploration of Illyria - such an interesting character and a huge chance that, IMO, is being lost to write about what it means to be human in Buffy and Angel. One of the reason that I have always dislike any attempts to pair up Spike and Illyria is how very Not Human or capable to having experiences that human beings do have.
Mariah IDW Editor taken from the IDW Forum
Hi, everyone. I'm wiped out from SDCC but I wanted to clarify a few things after all the big announcements at the con. I'll try not to be be too SPOILERY.
Hi, Deborahmm.
You know, it's entirely possible that I'm mixing up where things fall in the continuity with when they come out in store. When it's no longer 2am I'll check and repost. Spike #1 may in fact be coming out earlier than November, but it will all fall in line continuity-wise with Angel #38/39 and Illyria #1. I probably just have them jumbled up in my head. This is why I keep all of this mapped out at the office. Without my big old timeline chart, I get all messed up. :}
A little spoilery, but Gunn's arc in Eddie will also match up and get folded back in. And I for one want to see more of him, but I don't want to give away everything going on there. :}
And now I should probably sleep so I can post tomorrow and give you all the official months to avoid confusing anyone when I'm too tired post convention.
But it was a blast ad I hope everyone picks up Brian's Spike and everything else we're doing. I just cannot say enough how much I love what Brian is doing and how fantastic his Spike story is.
Hi, Hawkedup.
I can understand your frustration, and all I can really say is that making comics from behind the scenes is a lot more challenging than it looks from the outside. Bill has actually be on the book for a year, and with issue #38 will have done 11 issues of the series. We're not disregarding anything he's done, we're simply continuing on from the natural end point of some of those threads, just like #32 did. We don't always have the luxury of being able to have people on a book for years and years. They stay on as long as they can and we're happy to have them. But we are working from a cohesive story place even when we switch writers. Even when it seems jumbled, it's not.
Bill does have a master plan, and he's been building it, and it builds towards #38 in several big ways. Unfortunately, scheduling just didn't allow for him to continue past that point. He's a really busy guy. So some plot threads will be wrapped up, but things like James, for instance, are part of what the next arc will be tackling. So please be patient. There's plenty to come and it all matches up. As I said, this is not a reboot. It's simply doing what comics do and continuing the story. We do have to take the story where we think it should go from here, but it's all based on where we've been, including ATF.
November is going to be a very important month for Angel, with #39, Spike #1, and Illyria #1 all coming out. Each of these issues will have ways they're related to the others and show a lot of hints at the overall story in the main arc. Because the cast is so massive this is the best way to focus on each one and really get us where we need to be.
Mariah IDW Editor taken from the IDW Forum
Hi, everyone. I'm wiped out from SDCC but I wanted to clarify a few things after all the big announcements at the con. I'll try not to be be too SPOILERY.
Hi, Deborahmm.
You know, it's entirely possible that I'm mixing up where things fall in the continuity with when they come out in store. When it's no longer 2am I'll check and repost. Spike #1 may in fact be coming out earlier than November, but it will all fall in line continuity-wise with Angel #38/39 and Illyria #1. I probably just have them jumbled up in my head. This is why I keep all of this mapped out at the office. Without my big old timeline chart, I get all messed up. :}
A little spoilery, but Gunn's arc in Eddie will also match up and get folded back in. And I for one want to see more of him, but I don't want to give away everything going on there. :}
And now I should probably sleep so I can post tomorrow and give you all the official months to avoid confusing anyone when I'm too tired post convention.
But it was a blast ad I hope everyone picks up Brian's Spike and everything else we're doing. I just cannot say enough how much I love what Brian is doing and how fantastic his Spike story is.
Hi, Hawkedup.
I can understand your frustration, and all I can really say is that making comics from behind the scenes is a lot more challenging than it looks from the outside. Bill has actually be on the book for a year, and with issue #38 will have done 11 issues of the series. We're not disregarding anything he's done, we're simply continuing on from the natural end point of some of those threads, just like #32 did. We don't always have the luxury of being able to have people on a book for years and years. They stay on as long as they can and we're happy to have them. But we are working from a cohesive story place even when we switch writers. Even when it seems jumbled, it's not.
Bill does have a master plan, and he's been building it, and it builds towards #38 in several big ways. Unfortunately, scheduling just didn't allow for him to continue past that point. He's a really busy guy. So some plot threads will be wrapped up, but things like James, for instance, are part of what the next arc will be tackling. So please be patient. There's plenty to come and it all matches up. As I said, this is not a reboot. It's simply doing what comics do and continuing the story. We do have to take the story where we think it should go from here, but it's all based on where we've been, including ATF.
November is going to be a very important month for Angel, with #39, Spike #1, and Illyria #1 all coming out. Each of these issues will have ways they're related to the others and show a lot of hints at the overall story in the main arc. Because the cast is so massive this is the best way to focus on each one and really get us where we need to be.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jul 28 2010 05:14 am #29lovesbitch91
So... having just bought and watched the first two eps of the Buffy season 8 motion comic... I've gotta say I still have hope. The animation's pretty lame,actually, when compared to other motioncomics such as the astonishing x-men motion comic. and gahh my spacebar's messingup so excuse me. Like, a lot of the time they don't animate the mouths of the characters, which is really annoyingwhen there's back and forth conversation going. But from a recent interview, what's-his-face that's doingall this said they didn't really find their stride till about the fifth episode so....hopefull also, the voices... oh my gosh the voices. There are not words enough to describe how i feel about the voices, but for one - Andrew needs to sound more gay. just saying. Hopefully it's something they'll change in the future,because Giles sounds retarded.
Like, a lot of the time they don't animate the mouths of the characters, which is really annoyingwhen there's back and forth conversation going. But from a recent interview, what's-his-face that's doingall this said they didn't really find their stride till about the fifth episode so....hopefull also, the voices... oh my gosh the voices. There are not words enough to describe how i feel about the voices, but for one - Andrew needs to sound more gay. just saying. Hopefully it's something they'll change in the future,because Giles sounds retarded.Jul 29 2010 12:35 am #30CM
Guest
Now get ready for a new controversy in IDW's Angel (and I assume, Spike) comics series. Angel #35 apparently ends with a shocking reveal......
Spoiler
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*
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Spike no longer has a soul--and apparently wasn't aware of it.
According to Dark Horse Senior Managing Editor Scott Allie, Spike and Angel also will appear in the upcoming Buffy Season 9, and DH will be working to co-ordinate storylines with IDW's Angel and Spike comics series.
Spoiler
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Spike no longer has a soul--and apparently wasn't aware of it.
According to Dark Horse Senior Managing Editor Scott Allie, Spike and Angel also will appear in the upcoming Buffy Season 9, and DH will be working to co-ordinate storylines with IDW's Angel and Spike comics series.
Jul 29 2010 02:25 am #32ladycat713
Guest
Well Spike really doesn't need one to be a hero. Buffy and Angel however appear to need a translpant of a ethics, morality and remorse.
Jul 29 2010 02:44 am #33pfeifferpack
The only sad part is how hard he fought for it! As for needing it I think he's changed enough for it to make perfect sense that he didn't even notice. I used to think it made sense if he returned in AtS S5 without a soul since they (W&H) intended for Angel to wear the amulet and what better pay off than to have Angelus returned to them! Instead Spike wore it and if he lost the soul...no biggie, he was still fighting on the side of good and it didn't make THAT big a difference in his character. Sad that he lost what he fought for though! He actually wanted it unlike Liam/Angelus!
Kathleen
Kathleen
Jul 29 2010 04:38 am #34slaymesoftly
Moderator
IMHO Spike never actually needed the soul. The interesting thing is how many fanfics have been written in which Spike has lost his soul. They're stealing ideas from us now! LOL
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Jul 29 2010 10:02 am #35Cassiel
Guest
I love Spike with o without a soul. I don't think he needs one.
However, now I'm really dying to know:
1. When did he lost it?
2. Does he know it?
3. Does Joss kown it?
4. Is this his idea?
5. Does Spike have a soul now in Buffy?
God, I'm so curious that if I could I'd buy the comic!
Jul 29 2010 12:07 pm #36ghostyouknow27
I loved Spike pre-soul, but I think he does need one. Plus, he fought for his soul, not only to become some sort of man, but also to "fit" into the world. Losing it robs him of both those things. It pulls everything, including his already precarious sense of identity (by which I mean he still doesn't know where he fits) out from under him, and a character who chose his soul doesn't deserve that.
We never saw Spike make morally questionable (or wrong!) decisions like Angel-struggling-with-demon-and-soul, and but I think it's likely that we would have, if AtS hadn't been canceled in S5. I wonder if this is the start of that for Spike?
Finally, Spike must be deeply stupid to not have noticed losing his soul. He's not a genius by any means, but souls aren't like keys and watches. We understand that souls create voices and guilt, among other things, and that not having one makes it impossible to really understand what's right.
And I am going to be furious if this is a retcon or if it applies to S8.
I don't think I've ever been this mad at a comic I don't even read ...
We never saw Spike make morally questionable (or wrong!) decisions like Angel-struggling-with-demon-and-soul, and but I think it's likely that we would have, if AtS hadn't been canceled in S5. I wonder if this is the start of that for Spike?
Finally, Spike must be deeply stupid to not have noticed losing his soul. He's not a genius by any means, but souls aren't like keys and watches. We understand that souls create voices and guilt, among other things, and that not having one makes it impossible to really understand what's right.
And I am going to be furious if this is a retcon or if it applies to S8.
I don't think I've ever been this mad at a comic I don't even read ...
Jul 29 2010 12:46 pm #37Cassiel
Guest
I understand what you're saying, ghostyouknow27.
What I mean is: I don't think he need a soul to be 'good'. But, yes, he needs one to understand where he 'fit'.
So, yes, I'm really sorry for him. He deserved to be able to keep the soul he fought for.
But I can't say I hate this new development in the comics. It makes me curious. I only hope the writers can 'handle' well this situation.
About the 'noticing' thing, I disagree. I think vampires know what is wrong and what it right. They just don't care.
But Spike started to care, even before the soul. He felt giulty for the rape attempt to Buffy, didn't he?
If I remember well, when Angel lost his in Buffy was painful, right? But what if Spike lost his in Sunnydale? When he was dying. Hard to note.
So, this is why I can't wait to know what and when it happened.
Jul 30 2010 12:39 am #38ghostyouknow27
I'm obviously in the minority here, but ...
I don't think Spike needs a soul to love Buffy or to do good. But to be good? To instinctively recognize the ethical choice in a situation? To empathize with people to whom he's not directly connected? Yes, he needs a soul.
Angel/us never seemed to struggle with knowing whether or not he had a soul. He knew immediately when he'd lost it. Holden reported feeling a deep connection to evil immediately after rising from the grave (Buffy vampires seem to know that they're evil right off). And other demons (Doc, Anya) could recognize Spike's status immediately. He's at least around Illyria in the comics, isn't he? No one else noticed he wasn't smelling so soulful? Plus, I really can't see the Spike of "Beneath You" failing to realize that his spark's been snuffed out.
If this a short arc, fine. It's stupid, but whatever. If this is a retcon/Spike's unsoulled in S8, I will stab cute, furry things until they die.
I don't think Spike needs a soul to love Buffy or to do good. But to be good? To instinctively recognize the ethical choice in a situation? To empathize with people to whom he's not directly connected? Yes, he needs a soul.
Angel/us never seemed to struggle with knowing whether or not he had a soul. He knew immediately when he'd lost it. Holden reported feeling a deep connection to evil immediately after rising from the grave (Buffy vampires seem to know that they're evil right off). And other demons (Doc, Anya) could recognize Spike's status immediately. He's at least around Illyria in the comics, isn't he? No one else noticed he wasn't smelling so soulful? Plus, I really can't see the Spike of "Beneath You" failing to realize that his spark's been snuffed out.
If this a short arc, fine. It's stupid, but whatever. If this is a retcon/Spike's unsoulled in S8, I will stab cute, furry things until they die.
Jul 30 2010 02:25 am #39ladycat713
Guest
I don't think Spike needs the soul but given what he went through to get it, the agaony he felt afterwards and all the crap he was given because of lack of it , he should get it back,
However it would be a nice na na na na na towards Angel, Buffy et al that he's still doing good after loosing the soul he fought for while while they nearly fuck the world away.
Maybe have all the Slayers (especially Satsu because she could become his new Little Bit and he could try to find her a NICE girl to love) defect and become a force for good under Spike.
However it would be a nice na na na na na towards Angel, Buffy et al that he's still doing good after loosing the soul he fought for while while they nearly fuck the world away.
Maybe have all the Slayers (especially Satsu because she could become his new Little Bit and he could try to find her a NICE girl to love) defect and become a force for good under Spike.
If this is still in the Bill Willingham cycle - it could all turn out to be pretty lame - judging by the resolution of the Illyria I have to mate with Connor, it could all just turn out to be of little importance. This is so stupid, that Spike would not even be able to realized that he his soul was missing - considering that this having of a soul has always been the fundamental justification for everything related to Angel/Angelus and to the concept of the hero/champion/worthy/good model.
Anyway, Issue 34 has introduced a "soul eater" that can put her victims in complete control via thrall and the potential for said victim's soulless body "to wither, becoming empty carcass. If this woman and "soul eater" has had an encounter with "Spike" and taken his soul - that could very well be the connection.
Anyway, Issue 34 has introduced a "soul eater" that can put her victims in complete control via thrall and the potential for said victim's soulless body "to wither, becoming empty carcass. If this woman and "soul eater" has had an encounter with "Spike" and taken his soul - that could very well be the connection.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jul 30 2010 09:18 am #41Cassiel
Guest
Good point, ghostyouknow27. Just... I don't know. It have always intrigued me how vampires perceive the whole good/evil thing. And however Spike has always been an exception. Probably they rely on that.
Maybe it could be also a strategy to calm down Spike's fans. Like ladycat713 said, now we can do na na na na na towards Angel's fans. Maybe they rely on that, too. (And, yes, this is totally lame!)
But still, it seems strange that it happened in Angel comic.
I think that it stupid that he doesn't realize it, too. Except if it happened on the Hellmouth. There it has a litte more sense.
But, who know, maybe he knew. He just didn't say anything to anyone, for good reasons.
Still, it is weird seeing that he is so obsessed by prophecies. I always think it was cause of the Shanshu (vampire with a soul). Maybe he was trying to find out what happened to his soul.
Anyway, nmcil, in the spoiler I read, the soul eater is the one who told Spike he doesn't have a soul when it/she tries to eat it.
And Spike says *what?!* So, it seems that he doesn't know. Maybe they weren't alone and he was pretending...
But I'm not sure because in this spoiler I also read something else that let me a little stunned. And I want the comic to know if it is true or not.
Jul 30 2010 09:36 am #42Cassiel
Guest
Ok, I found the spoiler I read and I also found an image. So I guess it is true.
That's what happened at the end of the issue.
Soul eater:And I'll be dining on not one but two vampire souls tonight!That has to be the rarest of delicacies in a thousand realms!
It grabs Spike.
Soul eater (angry):But now I see I've been cheated!Angel clearly has a soul!I can taste it from here!But not this one!This thing is as empty as all others of his kind!
Spike(shocked):WHAT!You take that back,you slanderous bint!
Next: Things you thought you knew about Spike.
And that's the immy of the other part that let me stunned.
Spike hired people to write prophecies (about him).
---> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fKd6_mm1BFQ/TFH5mk_tT5I/AAAAAAAAAeE/1eljhOnS77A/s1600/Picture+3.png
Seriously? Dusk? Sunset?
Why not Twilight?!
Jul 31 2010 03:06 am #43pfeifferpack
Story iffy but GOD the artwork is fabulous!!!! They managed to really capture James as Spike, full of emotion.
Kathleen
Kathleen
Jul 31 2010 07:08 am #44CM
Guest
What the heck is with that making up prophecies story??? (the art is good, though) There's a typo, though. It's "prophesy" when it's to give a prophecy. Don't they have a Merriam-Webster?
I hate what they're doing to Spike! And yeah, I don't read these comics, either, but just that it comes from Joss' go-ahead.......UGH.
I hate what they're doing to Spike! And yeah, I don't read these comics, either, but just that it comes from Joss' go-ahead.......UGH.
I've been thinking about Spike and his ending in "Chosen" - Spike could definitely feel his soul when and he tells Buffy the line about "it kind of stings" - that reference I always thought very interesting within the context of what Angel described the function of the amulet - as a cleansing device. Spike's reaction to the effect on his soul was very little - I took that as an indication that his soul did not need a lot of cleansing - but the power of his soul was great. Had Angel been wearing the amulet, what would have happened to his soul? Was the amulet meant to destroy Angel's soul? If we take Spike's line about "kinda stings" as truth, the amulet was working and effecting the soul of the wearer.
Spike's soul is anchored, he is not going to lose it like Angel's "happy clause" would allow. Even in the state of Spiritual Grace/Nirvana that Spike attains when he is burning up, he would not lose his soul - but this is a point where the magic of the amulet could have drained the "soul essence" from Spike. The Spike that emerges from that amulet never gives any indication from his conduct that he is anything but the same Spike we saw at the end of the series - clearly still a hero model and champion. Spike tells Buffy just how much he is effected by his soul - that it is not the chip that is controlling his demon from feeding, it is his soul and guilt. Spike tells Angel emphatically that he is changed and working for the "side of good" - that he is a player and force for good when he helps bring down the necromancer. But Spike is bitter in this episode, bitter about Angel ending up with what seems like all the rewards - a king in his castle while Spike has come back as ghost that can effect nothing. So bitter, sure - but the thing is that Spike is the one that came up with the plan on how to bring the necromancer down, along with Gunn's idea of taking all the money away from him.
If Spike has lost his soul in the hellmouth by using the amulet, it would be, IMO, a really big retcon because his actions and words never give any indication that Spike is missing his soul. If they are now going with Spike not having a soul and his not even being aware of it - this would be such a big change. What does this do to the entire arc regarding Spike and his transformation? What does this do to one of the fundamental concepts of all the Buffyverse and Angelverse - that the having of a soul is the vital element in the determination of having the capacity to be a "Good Vampire." If Spike can be the vampire we see in AtS Season 5 and "After the Fall" all of the comic books post NFA, where in heck does that leave the prime hero model, Angel?
I hate this idea of Spike still feeling so completely inadequate with regards to Angel - that he is envious of the things Angel has achieved. After "Destiny" why is this still being used as a character device? It's not only Buffy who is not allowed to leave behind all her baggage, Spike apparently is also getting the same "stagnation" treatment. And Willingham has turned Spike into a shallow narcissistic womanizer buffoon. One of the few good things that are given to Spike in this Willingham cycle is Connor telling Gunn that one thing he knows for sure is that Spike can be depended on - that he will always do his absolute best when the fighting gets down and dirty and desperate. Willingham, thus far, has trashed Spike, he has thrown out a very few good things for the character - but they have been very few indeed.
Spike's soul is anchored, he is not going to lose it like Angel's "happy clause" would allow. Even in the state of Spiritual Grace/Nirvana that Spike attains when he is burning up, he would not lose his soul - but this is a point where the magic of the amulet could have drained the "soul essence" from Spike. The Spike that emerges from that amulet never gives any indication from his conduct that he is anything but the same Spike we saw at the end of the series - clearly still a hero model and champion. Spike tells Buffy just how much he is effected by his soul - that it is not the chip that is controlling his demon from feeding, it is his soul and guilt. Spike tells Angel emphatically that he is changed and working for the "side of good" - that he is a player and force for good when he helps bring down the necromancer. But Spike is bitter in this episode, bitter about Angel ending up with what seems like all the rewards - a king in his castle while Spike has come back as ghost that can effect nothing. So bitter, sure - but the thing is that Spike is the one that came up with the plan on how to bring the necromancer down, along with Gunn's idea of taking all the money away from him.
If Spike has lost his soul in the hellmouth by using the amulet, it would be, IMO, a really big retcon because his actions and words never give any indication that Spike is missing his soul. If they are now going with Spike not having a soul and his not even being aware of it - this would be such a big change. What does this do to the entire arc regarding Spike and his transformation? What does this do to one of the fundamental concepts of all the Buffyverse and Angelverse - that the having of a soul is the vital element in the determination of having the capacity to be a "Good Vampire." If Spike can be the vampire we see in AtS Season 5 and "After the Fall" all of the comic books post NFA, where in heck does that leave the prime hero model, Angel?
I hate this idea of Spike still feeling so completely inadequate with regards to Angel - that he is envious of the things Angel has achieved. After "Destiny" why is this still being used as a character device? It's not only Buffy who is not allowed to leave behind all her baggage, Spike apparently is also getting the same "stagnation" treatment. And Willingham has turned Spike into a shallow narcissistic womanizer buffoon. One of the few good things that are given to Spike in this Willingham cycle is Connor telling Gunn that one thing he knows for sure is that Spike can be depended on - that he will always do his absolute best when the fighting gets down and dirty and desperate. Willingham, thus far, has trashed Spike, he has thrown out a very few good things for the character - but they have been very few indeed.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
"But still, it seems strange that it happened in Angel comic."
If I have it right, The Brian Lynch series will start to connected the events of Angel with Buffy Season 8 and Spike's role in the concluding arc - I hate that Joss Whedon, after all this time and when readers and fans were anticipating that he would complete and resolve this season, will now be shared with Scot Allie. Joss Whedon had years to prepare for this, and especially since he gave Brad Meltzer and all the writers his approval - IMO, he was obligated to complete this project. We know that he is very busy and now with his big chance with Avengers, even more so, but with all the time that this series has been and his knowledge of what the writer's arc were going to be, why wait so long to complete the most important part of the season - three years plus were used to bring in the big Meltzer Universe/Cosmic Copulation/Slayer Evolution arc and Joss Whedon's resolution and development. The ought to have been plenty of time and opportunity for JW to write his all important ending.
Guess I sound like a spoiled kid who is not getting what they want - but I do feel disappointed - and especially with what happened to Spike under the Willingham cycle, I wanted this ending to be all Joss Whedon - there would be not questions about where Buffy Season 8 had taken the characters and why.
If I have it right, The Brian Lynch series will start to connected the events of Angel with Buffy Season 8 and Spike's role in the concluding arc - I hate that Joss Whedon, after all this time and when readers and fans were anticipating that he would complete and resolve this season, will now be shared with Scot Allie. Joss Whedon had years to prepare for this, and especially since he gave Brad Meltzer and all the writers his approval - IMO, he was obligated to complete this project. We know that he is very busy and now with his big chance with Avengers, even more so, but with all the time that this series has been and his knowledge of what the writer's arc were going to be, why wait so long to complete the most important part of the season - three years plus were used to bring in the big Meltzer Universe/Cosmic Copulation/Slayer Evolution arc and Joss Whedon's resolution and development. The ought to have been plenty of time and opportunity for JW to write his all important ending.
Guess I sound like a spoiled kid who is not getting what they want - but I do feel disappointed - and especially with what happened to Spike under the Willingham cycle, I wanted this ending to be all Joss Whedon - there would be not questions about where Buffy Season 8 had taken the characters and why.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 01 2010 08:41 am #47ladycat713
Guest
Given the differences between Spike and Angel with souls both pre turning and post , I'm thinking that cleansing Angel's soul would've done more than stung. He looked like he was hellbound long before he was Angelus. And a lot of his heroic activities post soul returning seem to be ego driven.
Wolfram and Hart definitely would've known that with thier files on Angel.
Wolfram and Hart definitely would've known that with thier files on Angel.
Aug 02 2010 12:01 am #48The Enemy of Reality
If anyone's interested, here's link to an audio interview with Brian Lynch about the new Spike comic... http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/07/podcast-interview-with-brian-lynch-from.html
He mentions a big reuinion of Spike and a certain 'someone' (who we all know is Buffy
) at the end.
He mentions a big reuinion of Spike and a certain 'someone' (who we all know is Buffy
) at the end.I don't have my scanner anymore - but I did take a photo to share - this is the ending image for the issue - Wonderful image of Spike and the Soul Eater.
The large image where you can read the text is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4851073016/sizes/o/ It is also known that Willow will be a crossover character -
The large image where you can read the text is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4851073016/sizes/o/ It is also known that Willow will be a crossover character -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
SDCC Bestfest Interview with Mariah Huehner on the Spike Reveal
Mariah: Nope.
Buffyfest: So how difficult was it given the fact that there had been a lot of discussion about how out of character he had been. How hard was it for you to keep that secret on the low?
Mariah: Well it was very difficult because you hope that people are gonna be patient and wait for the story to unfold because you can't just have that sort of a thing pop up suddenly. There's gotta be some kind of basis for it, you gotta go "Well he's acting at least a little bit differently but he's not totally not Spike". And the thing about him not having a soul is not all there is to it either so there's a lot more that's gonna come in #36 that kind of explains that. But it's a big deal because there's obviously been a lot of stuff that Spike's been doing that's not quite what people are used to and it was meant to be (and I think sort of successfully) Spike in a a sort of a different way. Yeah, it was hard because I wanted fans to understand something was coming but couldn't say what it was, you know it's always kind of delicate.
Mariah: Nope.
Buffyfest: So how difficult was it given the fact that there had been a lot of discussion about how out of character he had been. How hard was it for you to keep that secret on the low?
Mariah: Well it was very difficult because you hope that people are gonna be patient and wait for the story to unfold because you can't just have that sort of a thing pop up suddenly. There's gotta be some kind of basis for it, you gotta go "Well he's acting at least a little bit differently but he's not totally not Spike". And the thing about him not having a soul is not all there is to it either so there's a lot more that's gonna come in #36 that kind of explains that. But it's a big deal because there's obviously been a lot of stuff that Spike's been doing that's not quite what people are used to and it was meant to be (and I think sort of successfully) Spike in a a sort of a different way. Yeah, it was hard because I wanted fans to understand something was coming but couldn't say what it was, you know it's always kind of delicate.
Buffyfest: Actually, speaking of that what I wanted to talk about was there is a huge difference and always has been in this whole way that the soul thing works with Angel vs. Spike because even whenhe didn't have the soul, Spike was sorta capable...
Mariah: Of doing the right thing...
Bufffyfest: With the chip and even before the chip he's sort of capable of love whereas Angelus...
Mariah: Is really not.
Buffyfest: Totally incapable. What do you think it is that makes it like that?
Mariah: I think it kinda goes to the episode where they talk about how Spike became Spike. William as a human being was a good man, he was a poet, he was kinda not the best at anything but he was, at heart, a decent person. Angel was kind of an ass. I mean really as a person he wasn't a terrible guy but he wasn't really a hero. he was sort of this philandering, drinking guy. So there's a big different where there base comes from and even though I know they're demons I think that there's a core difference there. I think it's harder for Angel to work at being good than it is for Spike ultimately.
Buffyfest: How do you think that Spike is going to react to his news?
Mariah: He's not gonna be happy about it.
Buffyfest: How about everyone else are they gonna want to lock him up like Angelus, Season 4?
Mariah: It's gonna be interesting to see because a lot of the characters react differently to it. Spike has obviously still been doing a lot of perfectly reasonable good things this whole time too. So I think a lot of characters are gonna have a hard time because there is such a stark difference between when Angel goes because if that happens you've gotta lock him up or get it back in there now. Obviously they haven't had to worry about Spike. Especially between Angel and Spike, though. That kind of thing is going to be interesting in how it plays out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you think - considering the line of Spike's reaction: "Mariah: He's not gonna be happy about it." can't imagine how this story is going to play out. The first things that comes to my mind is that the amulet consumed his soul essence - but that is taking is so far back. And there are some very powerful new characters that have been introduced now. This Spike losing his soul is the most interesting event that has happened in a long time. Something that is fundamental to both characters and the entire series.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Looky at the covers for Last Gleaming #38
Link...www.comicsalliance.com/2010/08/03/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-38-comic-the-death-of-dawn/
Who knows if Dawn will die, seems too obvious to me. But you never know with these comics.
And Yay! for the Jeanty one with Spuffy fighting side-by side. 
Just how we like to see them.
Back in Sunnydale everyone is fighting for their lives against a horde of demons, and someone close to Buffy joins forces with a villian from the past to strive for a common goal-protect the seed. What the frilly heck is "the seed". Plz anything but a mystical pregnancy with the birth of Baby Blight-Summers
Could be Dawn and her Key past. Who knows? At least we got a Spuffy together fighting cover. I'll just be happy about that.
Link...www.comicsalliance.com/2010/08/03/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-38-comic-the-death-of-dawn/
Who knows if Dawn will die, seems too obvious to me. But you never know with these comics.
And Yay! for the Jeanty one with Spuffy fighting side-by side. Just how we like to see them. Back in Sunnydale everyone is fighting for their lives against a horde of demons, and someone close to Buffy joins forces with a villian from the past to strive for a common goal-protect the seed. What the frilly heck is "the seed". Plz anything but a mystical pregnancy with the birth of Baby Blight-Summers
Could be Dawn and her Key past. Who knows? At least we got a Spuffy together fighting cover. I'll just be happy about that. Aug 04 2010 03:33 am #52Spikez_tart
Dawn looks pretty dead to me and she's commited the fatal error of falling in love with one of the Gang of Four. They wouldn't tease us like that and bring her back would they??? On the other hand, Xander doesn't look all that sad.
And are Spike and Buffy going to have a sexapalooza reunion like she had with Angel? And does that make her a big slut?
And are Spike and Buffy going to have a sexapalooza reunion like she had with Angel? And does that make her a big slut?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Aug 04 2010 05:40 pm #53ladycat713
Guest
Given that Dawn is the Key , her "death" could be her returning to her previous for, Assumning of course that they remember she's the Key instead of using a dumb reason like a curse because she cheated as a reason to have her change shape.
Xander didn't look too overwrought over Anya's death either.
Given Buffy's sexual exploitsa in the comics so far have had her be a heartless user (with Satsu) and a dumb bimbo who was thinking more with what was between her legs instead of her shoulders (with Angel) , sleeping with Spike can't actually make things any worse.Though I think it's be funny if he rejected her because he found out about both Satsu and Angel and called her cruel because of Satsu (and asked her what excuse she used to justify her behavior since she's souless wouldn't work with a Slayer) and stupid because of Angel (because sex with Angel has never led to anything good.
I might be totally out of touch with how most Spuffy and Spike fan would feel about any kind of sexual relationship at this point between Buffy & Spike - that is something that I would absolutely hate. It would, IMVHO, be a terrible statement about their relationship and would detract from their last days together. There is not much that can be done, outside of the treatment that Buffy was being controlled by other forces, to explain Buffy's behavior in the "Cosmic Sex" and in the "Twilight Realm." I may be mistaken, but from my interpretation of her conduct she does not ever show any remorse or concern, just the opposite in fact, that she has just had this "Cosmic Sex" with the very person that put her and all her slayer and countless people through all the death and destruction and chaos.
For Spike and Buffy to be put into that same "sexual pleasure & emotional need" would not be a good thing - Of course the justification or explaination to Spike has many possible ways that it can go - and that will be the "all important: development for Spuffy & Spike fans, but the last thing I want is for Spike to have any sexual encounter with Buffy given what happened between Buffy & Angel/Twangel. With so many themes in the season that must be dealt with, I don't think that the time and page space would allow for a good exploration of where Buffy and Spike are now in their relationship and what the "Cosmic Sex" means for them in their future.
For Spike and Buffy to be put into that same "sexual pleasure & emotional need" would not be a good thing - Of course the justification or explaination to Spike has many possible ways that it can go - and that will be the "all important: development for Spuffy & Spike fans, but the last thing I want is for Spike to have any sexual encounter with Buffy given what happened between Buffy & Angel/Twangel. With so many themes in the season that must be dealt with, I don't think that the time and page space would allow for a good exploration of where Buffy and Spike are now in their relationship and what the "Cosmic Sex" means for them in their future.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 05 2010 01:29 am #55Jeleyne
Guest
I wouldn't want to see any sexual relationship between Buffy and Spike until she fully, completely, and honestly answers one question from him. And that question would be, "Slayer, what the HELL were you thinking?" I'd also like to see some shame-faced groveling and some genuine contrition from her, but I'd settle for just having the question answered. But as things stand right now? No bloody way.
Aug 05 2010 02:56 am #56ladycat713
Guest
Rejecting would definitely be the way to go. Maybe at the most have Spike say he loves her but he doesn't like her very much.
She needs to grow up and learn to feel guilty over things which are actually her fault . They showed her showing so much guilt over Angel losing his soul and sending him to hell when the first thing she had no way to no (he should've checked and known about the clause long ago) and the second was necessary and his fault really .
However by now she knows how dangerous anything with Angel and sex is and she knows better. Not to mention that she knows he's Twilight and then she slept with him. That's one of the reasons I liked Angel and Cordelia because Cordelia would put him down in a heartbeat. She needs to feel guilty as hell over her treatment of Satsu and for sleeping with Angel even with some mystical glow. The Scoobies though have a bad habit of enabling each other's bad behavior and getting on to each other about things which they consider bad because they don't approve like Spuffy.
For example, Think how much better things would have turned out if just one of them had bitchslapped Willow after the my will be done spell and yelled at her about her being a control freak. Maybe then she wouldn't have blamed her behavior on the magic instead of herself.
She needs to grow up and learn to feel guilty over things which are actually her fault . They showed her showing so much guilt over Angel losing his soul and sending him to hell when the first thing she had no way to no (he should've checked and known about the clause long ago) and the second was necessary and his fault really .
However by now she knows how dangerous anything with Angel and sex is and she knows better. Not to mention that she knows he's Twilight and then she slept with him. That's one of the reasons I liked Angel and Cordelia because Cordelia would put him down in a heartbeat. She needs to feel guilty as hell over her treatment of Satsu and for sleeping with Angel even with some mystical glow. The Scoobies though have a bad habit of enabling each other's bad behavior and getting on to each other about things which they consider bad because they don't approve like Spuffy.
For example, Think how much better things would have turned out if just one of them had bitchslapped Willow after the my will be done spell and yelled at her about her being a control freak. Maybe then she wouldn't have blamed her behavior on the magic instead of herself.
Aug 05 2010 03:48 am #57ghostyouknow27
Guest
I'm trying to remember about Satsu – did Buffy make Satsu think they could have relationship? If she was honest (this is just casual sex for me), it wasn't the smartest/most responsible thing ever, since Satsu was in love and going to get hurt, but I don't think Buffy needs to feel immense loads of guilt if both partners knew the deal. At least some of the responsibility's Satsu's. Twilight's a whole 'nother deal, since he was murdering her Slayers!
I don't think Buffy needs to grovel to Spike. They're not in a relationship. Why should she have to apologize for sleeping with someone else? I didn't think Anya or Spike needed to apologize for Entropy, either. Buffy should be held responsible for fucking Angel instead of beating him into the ground, but that's because he was freaking Twilight, not because she owes Spike anything.
I do want someone chewing her out. Again, because you shouldn't sleep with guys leading armies against you/people with detachable souls. But I think Buffy needs to accept that she was stupid and start fixing things, not brood about it. She has enough guilt complexes about sex as it is.
I don't think Buffy needs to grovel to Spike. They're not in a relationship. Why should she have to apologize for sleeping with someone else? I didn't think Anya or Spike needed to apologize for Entropy, either. Buffy should be held responsible for fucking Angel instead of beating him into the ground, but that's because he was freaking Twilight, not because she owes Spike anything.
I do want someone chewing her out. Again, because you shouldn't sleep with guys leading armies against you/people with detachable souls. But I think Buffy needs to accept that she was stupid and start fixing things, not brood about it. She has enough guilt complexes about sex as it is.
Aug 05 2010 04:40 am #58slaymesoftly
Moderator
Buffy knew Satsu was in love with her, but I don't recall that she promised anything. I think Satsu went into knowing what she was doing and that it wasn't likely to be going anywhere.
And, no she doesn't need to grovel to Spike. If he wanted to be in her life, he should have told her he was back the minute he could hold a phone. I don't think an apology for having such public sex would be out of line, if she has some reason to think he still loves her and would have been hurt having to watch/listen to it, but she doesn't need to grovel. Not specifically to him, anyway. Maybe to the people dying while she and Twangel were ending the world? Of course, now it looks like the comics are going to make Spike responsible for Angel's actions as Twilight. So maybe it should be apologies all around - after they save the world.
And, no she doesn't need to grovel to Spike. If he wanted to be in her life, he should have told her he was back the minute he could hold a phone. I don't think an apology for having such public sex would be out of line, if she has some reason to think he still loves her and would have been hurt having to watch/listen to it, but she doesn't need to grovel. Not specifically to him, anyway. Maybe to the people dying while she and Twangel were ending the world? Of course, now it looks like the comics are going to make Spike responsible for Angel's actions as Twilight. So maybe it should be apologies all around - after they save the world.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Aug 05 2010 05:10 am #59Niori
Guest
It's not so much that Buffy slept with Satsu, but how she handled it afterwards. The whole not acknowledging her existance at one point, promoting her far, far away to Japan and then sending Kennedy of all people to make sure Satsu knew that Buffy wasn't interested. That's a crappy way to treat someone, let alone someone you know is in love with you.
And I think that Buffy needs to apologize to the general population about her actions, not Spike in partircualr.
And I think that Buffy needs to apologize to the general population about her actions, not Spike in partircualr.
" Buffy should be held responsible for fucking Angel instead of beating him into the ground, but that's because he was freaking Twilight, not because she owes Spike anything."
And this is exactly what Buffy was doing before she before the "green glo" and Angel/Twangel sweet talked her into all the bullshit of "transformation & Cosmic Sex" - now we have all this renewed speculation about protecting the "seed" - and since the Brad Meltzer arc made such an obvious statement about Angel/Twangel and all his part in good working order, an impregnation is not totally out of the possible developments. I am hoping that the reference to all working in good order regarding Angel/Twangel was meant as misinformation and not an element that is going to result in a mystical birth - but it is not out of the possible. Combine all these references with the preview description:
“Everything comes to a head. We will find out what the Twilight symbol means and just how important Buffy and Angel are to each other on a cosmic level.”
preggers Buffy could happen. I would not at all mind having Xander and Dawn birth scenario
Raise your hand if your are thoroughly "tired and bored" by more Bangel and more Buffy - Angel loves woes. Wish I could remember that great Spike line about "who cares."
And this is exactly what Buffy was doing before she before the "green glo" and Angel/Twangel sweet talked her into all the bullshit of "transformation & Cosmic Sex" - now we have all this renewed speculation about protecting the "seed" - and since the Brad Meltzer arc made such an obvious statement about Angel/Twangel and all his part in good working order, an impregnation is not totally out of the possible developments. I am hoping that the reference to all working in good order regarding Angel/Twangel was meant as misinformation and not an element that is going to result in a mystical birth - but it is not out of the possible. Combine all these references with the preview description:
“Everything comes to a head. We will find out what the Twilight symbol means and just how important Buffy and Angel are to each other on a cosmic level.”
preggers Buffy could happen. I would not at all mind having Xander and Dawn birth scenario
Raise your hand if your are thoroughly "tired and bored" by more Bangel and more Buffy - Angel loves woes. Wish I could remember that great Spike line about "who cares."
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 05 2010 12:04 pm #61ghostyouknow27
Guest
That makes sense about Satsu. I had forgotten about Kennedy. I would say that it sounds like Buffy thought she could handle something, but then freaked and handled it badly --- except this is the comic and there's not much in the way of character <i>anything</i>.
I'm trying to ignore the possibility of pregnant Buffy. The comic already reads like sub-par ffic half the time. Twangel!baby would be too much for me, especially since it would be a <i>second</i> "miracle" baby for Angel.
I'm also annoyed by Spike losing his soul/ maybe having Willow put it back/ being responsible for Angel's actions, though I suppose nothing would teach Spike a bigger lesson about messing with prophecy than causing cosmic!Bangel sex. Except I can't buy unsoulled him messing with prophecy in the first place!
I'm trying to ignore the possibility of pregnant Buffy. The comic already reads like sub-par ffic half the time. Twangel!baby would be too much for me, especially since it would be a <i>second</i> "miracle" baby for Angel.
I'm also annoyed by Spike losing his soul/ maybe having Willow put it back/ being responsible for Angel's actions, though I suppose nothing would teach Spike a bigger lesson about messing with prophecy than causing cosmic!Bangel sex. Except I can't buy unsoulled him messing with prophecy in the first place!
the image on the large preview page looks like someone is going to have a very bad encounter with that Soul Eater - the image looks like it could be Connor.
Joss Whedon and Brad Meltzer really put their heroine in a very bad place. I wonder if they understand just how offensive it was to a great many readers and fans having that "Cosmic Sex" following immediately after Buffy was in a Huge Battle with Twilight over all the death and destruction that he caused. And especially with the treatment that follows in the Twilight Realm. Buffy's seemingly total lack of concern for what had immediately preceded her reunion with Angel/Twangel. How she seems to simply have forgotten all about those 206 Slayers that were killed, and all those soldiers and people living with the commune who were dragged into the battle that Twilight and his military allies forced on them. Maybe Brad Meltzer does not understand the Buffyverse fandom, but Joss Whedon certainly does. How in the world is he going to justified the actions and conduct of Buffy jumping right into a sexual relationship with the person that a few minutes before she saw as her enemy and the person that was responsible for killing her Slayers, young women that she is responsible for.
Even if the Buffyverse and Angelverse is now in "full comic book mode" - aren't the characters still held responsible for their conduct, don't the themes that are introduced into the story arcs still have to be resolved. Surely, holding hands and saying I really missed you and coming back through the portal to join in the battle which their "I can't live without you and my life is one great big fucked up mess because I can't have you" sexual reunion caused. Or did I read the script wrong - didn't that general say that "that boy" probably does not know what portals he caused to be opened.
When is Buffy ever going to be allowed to grow up and move on from the Bangel Woes?
Joss Whedon and Brad Meltzer really put their heroine in a very bad place. I wonder if they understand just how offensive it was to a great many readers and fans having that "Cosmic Sex" following immediately after Buffy was in a Huge Battle with Twilight over all the death and destruction that he caused. And especially with the treatment that follows in the Twilight Realm. Buffy's seemingly total lack of concern for what had immediately preceded her reunion with Angel/Twangel. How she seems to simply have forgotten all about those 206 Slayers that were killed, and all those soldiers and people living with the commune who were dragged into the battle that Twilight and his military allies forced on them. Maybe Brad Meltzer does not understand the Buffyverse fandom, but Joss Whedon certainly does. How in the world is he going to justified the actions and conduct of Buffy jumping right into a sexual relationship with the person that a few minutes before she saw as her enemy and the person that was responsible for killing her Slayers, young women that she is responsible for.
Even if the Buffyverse and Angelverse is now in "full comic book mode" - aren't the characters still held responsible for their conduct, don't the themes that are introduced into the story arcs still have to be resolved. Surely, holding hands and saying I really missed you and coming back through the portal to join in the battle which their "I can't live without you and my life is one great big fucked up mess because I can't have you" sexual reunion caused. Or did I read the script wrong - didn't that general say that "that boy" probably does not know what portals he caused to be opened.
When is Buffy ever going to be allowed to grow up and move on from the Bangel Woes?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 07 2010 07:50 pm #63ladycat713
Guest
Even if Buffy outright stated that she was just looking to get laid she had to have known that sleeping with someone who was in love with her was leading them on. Kennedy even stated when she talked to Satsu that Buffy led her on. And remember that even though Buffy seemed to have eventually returned Spike's feelings (the jury is till out on that one) she has already done this to one person before Satsu and she doesn't have her excuses about soulessness with Satsu that she used with Spike.So she definitely knows that kissing someone who's stated they love you and having sex with them is leading them on. She can't be so clueless that she doesn't know that. She gave Satsu hope that her feelings would be returned (and if Satsu knows about her and Spike and Buffy's constant denial that she had feelings for him it would make things so much her hope even more).
Also to add insult to injury , it's highly likely that Satsu was taught to look up to Buffy as a hero and the ultimate Slayer so she was vulnerable to harm in more than one way.
And the reason I want Spike to rake her over the coals is that someone should and Spike is a lot more likely to do it than a Scooby. He's always said that she loves her and he sees her flaws and all while the Scoobies seemed to have a very conditional love for her that involves lying to themselves that everything is all right.,
Also to add insult to injury , it's highly likely that Satsu was taught to look up to Buffy as a hero and the ultimate Slayer so she was vulnerable to harm in more than one way.
And the reason I want Spike to rake her over the coals is that someone should and Spike is a lot more likely to do it than a Scooby. He's always said that she loves her and he sees her flaws and all while the Scoobies seemed to have a very conditional love for her that involves lying to themselves that everything is all right.,
Aug 07 2010 08:39 pm #64ghostyouknow27
Guest
I think Satsu knew exactly what Buffy was doing with her – I seem to recall Willow saying something to her? Like I said, it was irresponsible of Buffy, but Satsu bears some responsibility, as does Spike. I think Satsu/Buffy and Spike/Buffy are quite different, because Spike and Buffy were mutually abusive, and Buffy didn't consider Spike a person.
I'm sure Spike's not happy with her, but if he chews her out, it should be because she almost let the world go boom, not because she slept with someone else on whatever terms. Because, frankly, it's not his business. A scene with Spike and Satsu commiserating could be cute, though.
I'm sure Spike's not happy with her, but if he chews her out, it should be because she almost let the world go boom, not because she slept with someone else on whatever terms. Because, frankly, it's not his business. A scene with Spike and Satsu commiserating could be cute, though.
Aug 08 2010 04:24 am #65Spikez_tart
Soul Eater - the image looks like it could be Connor - I think Connor ate my soul when
he slept with Cordelia. Blerkgh.
Maybe Connor ate Spike's soul, but even if he did, Willow can always put it back. She knows
the recipe. She could use tupperware if there's no orb of thessalah around.
he slept with Cordelia. Blerkgh.
Maybe Connor ate Spike's soul, but even if he did, Willow can always put it back. She knows
the recipe. She could use tupperware if there's no orb of thessalah around.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Aug 08 2010 05:12 am #66ghostyouknow27
Guest
Guys! I've figured out why Buffy's so OOC in S8!
** dun dun dun **
She lost her soul! Someone sucked it out when she wasn't looking! It explains everything - her slipping moral code re: killing humans, her somewhat callous treatment of Satsu, going after Xander post-Xander/Dawn and sleeping with Twiight! She has completely lost her moral compass.
(Also, the problem with WIllow restoring Spike's soul is that he's then cursed, isn't he?)
** dun dun dun **
She lost her soul! Someone sucked it out when she wasn't looking! It explains everything - her slipping moral code re: killing humans, her somewhat callous treatment of Satsu, going after Xander post-Xander/Dawn and sleeping with Twiight! She has completely lost her moral compass.
(Also, the problem with WIllow restoring Spike's soul is that he's then cursed, isn't he?)
While it is true that Satsu went into the sexual relationship with Buffy knowing that Buffy was not in love with her - the point that I see as "wrong" is that Buffy in her position as leader and general should not be having sexual relationships with any of her subordinates. As especially if Buffy believed that Satsu was very gifted and could be a great leader, having a sexual relationship with her is even worse. With Xander, it is different - they have known each other for many years nor has Xander told Buffy that he is in love with her as Satsu did.
What is Satsu going to think now that she has seen her leader and the woman that she took to her bed and shared her body and love with? The same person that beat the shit out of her and Buffy both, and that is connected to all that killings and attacks against the slayers. It is not a "thing of little concern" that Buffy has done. And I don't put this onto Angel/Twangel, because unless Buffy is being controlled or manipulated by this mysterious "universe and glo" she made the choice, with full knowledge of all that her enemy "Twilight" has done.
We will see how much the Riley One Shot tells about what was happening outside of the things shown in the season thus far.
What is Satsu going to think now that she has seen her leader and the woman that she took to her bed and shared her body and love with? The same person that beat the shit out of her and Buffy both, and that is connected to all that killings and attacks against the slayers. It is not a "thing of little concern" that Buffy has done. And I don't put this onto Angel/Twangel, because unless Buffy is being controlled or manipulated by this mysterious "universe and glo" she made the choice, with full knowledge of all that her enemy "Twilight" has done.
We will see how much the Riley One Shot tells about what was happening outside of the things shown in the season thus far.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 08 2010 04:31 pm #68Spikez_tart
the problem with WIllow restoring Spike's soul is that he's then cursed - heh heh, she needs a beta to edit that spell for her.
Xander doesn't have to tell Buffy he loves her, everything he's done for years tells her and everybody else that he does. In one of his "dream" arguments w Xander in Hells Bells, Xander and Anya are fighting that he went out to help Buffy in a fight and got hurt (implication he can no longer have sex?). Anya is always worried about his relationship with Willow, but Buffy is the real problem.
From the day he first saw her and symbolically took a fall off his skateboard forward, he's loved her. Maybe he finally realized that there's no point waiting for her, so he moved on, but I think his love for Buffy has ruined every one of his relationships. Hence, he becomes a demon magnet?
Xander doesn't have to tell Buffy he loves her, everything he's done for years tells her and everybody else that he does. In one of his "dream" arguments w Xander in Hells Bells, Xander and Anya are fighting that he went out to help Buffy in a fight and got hurt (implication he can no longer have sex?). Anya is always worried about his relationship with Willow, but Buffy is the real problem.
From the day he first saw her and symbolically took a fall off his skateboard forward, he's loved her. Maybe he finally realized that there's no point waiting for her, so he moved on, but I think his love for Buffy has ruined every one of his relationships. Hence, he becomes a demon magnet?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Aug 08 2010 08:27 pm #69ghostyouknow27
Guest
Yes, you shouldn't sleep with coworkers, much less subordinates, but no one in the Slayer Army seems to have scruples (because they've all lost their souls!!!!!)
IDW doesn't seem to understand that there's a difference between Spike's soul (a prize) and Angel's soul (a curse). Willow seems to stick with the Gypsy means of soul resurrection, which contains that pesky happiness clause. Though really, Miss All Powerful should be able to work around it.
Xander definitely loves Buffy, but I don't think he's sooo hung up on her that it ruins his other relationships. I honestly think he held a torch for her, but then it mellowed into friendship. He didn't leave Anya because of Buffy. He left Anya because he's an idiot with a lot of baggage, and it was a sudden infatuation with Willow that destroyed his relationship with Cordy. The sequence in HB is Xander's worst nightmare – he tries to help Buffy, fails (she's dead) and renders himself even more useless than he was before (busted back – can't support himself or give Anya the life she deserves). I think that scene says a lot about his feelings of inadequacy, especially as an American Male of Masculine Manliness.
IDW doesn't seem to understand that there's a difference between Spike's soul (a prize) and Angel's soul (a curse). Willow seems to stick with the Gypsy means of soul resurrection, which contains that pesky happiness clause. Though really, Miss All Powerful should be able to work around it.
Xander definitely loves Buffy, but I don't think he's sooo hung up on her that it ruins his other relationships. I honestly think he held a torch for her, but then it mellowed into friendship. He didn't leave Anya because of Buffy. He left Anya because he's an idiot with a lot of baggage, and it was a sudden infatuation with Willow that destroyed his relationship with Cordy. The sequence in HB is Xander's worst nightmare – he tries to help Buffy, fails (she's dead) and renders himself even more useless than he was before (busted back – can't support himself or give Anya the life she deserves). I think that scene says a lot about his feelings of inadequacy, especially as an American Male of Masculine Manliness.
Aug 09 2010 05:25 pm #70ladycat713
Guest
Buffy had all the power wityh Satsu in these ways and she abused that power.
1. Satsu is in love with Buffy.
2. Buffy is her commander.
3. Buffy probably has been held up as the ultimate Slayer and Satsu would have been taught to look up to her and probably that Buffy can do no wrong.
4. Buffy has always indentified as straight and continued to do so even though sleeping with Satsu means she's bisexual as is Willow. The definition of bisexual is someone who enjoys sex with both men and women. Having a strong preference for the opposite sex doesn't make you straight and having a strong preference for the same sex doesn't make you gay. (why the Whedonverse has a problem with saying someone is bisexual I don't know and the word bicurious doesn't make sense , if you are curious enough to get aroused you are bisexual). By saying that she's straight still, she is exerting power and saying that Satsu can't even get her to admit to bisexuality.
Season 8 seems to be a case of how low can you go, At first when I heard that the Buffy in Rome was a decoy , I was glad but then I thought about that poor girl having to essentially be a human target who would probably be killed in Buffy's place. Buffy ends up teaching all these girls that might makes right so it's no wonder they abuse the power, that love is a weakness that can be used against you and do what you want no matter the consequences.
All of the storylines could have done another way without the character assassination. Imagine if Dawn had lost her virginity with her boyfriend and immediately started growing when they were basking in the afterglow and grew too big for the bed and the building. It would make them investigate Dawn's Keyness which was uncermoniously dropped.
Willow could have communed with a snake goddess without cheating on her girlfriend ( amove which has actually made me feel sorry for Kennedy who I had pegged as a snotty little spoiled bitch from the moment she walked in the door.
Flawed heroes are one thing but this is too far. I can deal with a hero who broken , that explains the character Rorschach from the Watchmen, he's profoundly broken , you can feel pity for him, admire that he still gets up and tries to do the right thing in spite of his brokenness and find him offputting all at the same time. The Scoobies (especially Buffy and Willow) have become the people you want to slap silly instead of pat on the back . Now when they are at thier lows you don't want to help and commiserate, you just want to say you brought it on your self.
1. Satsu is in love with Buffy.
2. Buffy is her commander.
3. Buffy probably has been held up as the ultimate Slayer and Satsu would have been taught to look up to her and probably that Buffy can do no wrong.
4. Buffy has always indentified as straight and continued to do so even though sleeping with Satsu means she's bisexual as is Willow. The definition of bisexual is someone who enjoys sex with both men and women. Having a strong preference for the opposite sex doesn't make you straight and having a strong preference for the same sex doesn't make you gay. (why the Whedonverse has a problem with saying someone is bisexual I don't know and the word bicurious doesn't make sense , if you are curious enough to get aroused you are bisexual). By saying that she's straight still, she is exerting power and saying that Satsu can't even get her to admit to bisexuality.
Season 8 seems to be a case of how low can you go, At first when I heard that the Buffy in Rome was a decoy , I was glad but then I thought about that poor girl having to essentially be a human target who would probably be killed in Buffy's place. Buffy ends up teaching all these girls that might makes right so it's no wonder they abuse the power, that love is a weakness that can be used against you and do what you want no matter the consequences.
All of the storylines could have done another way without the character assassination. Imagine if Dawn had lost her virginity with her boyfriend and immediately started growing when they were basking in the afterglow and grew too big for the bed and the building. It would make them investigate Dawn's Keyness which was uncermoniously dropped.
Willow could have communed with a snake goddess without cheating on her girlfriend ( amove which has actually made me feel sorry for Kennedy who I had pegged as a snotty little spoiled bitch from the moment she walked in the door.
Flawed heroes are one thing but this is too far. I can deal with a hero who broken , that explains the character Rorschach from the Watchmen, he's profoundly broken , you can feel pity for him, admire that he still gets up and tries to do the right thing in spite of his brokenness and find him offputting all at the same time. The Scoobies (especially Buffy and Willow) have become the people you want to slap silly instead of pat on the back . Now when they are at thier lows you don't want to help and commiserate, you just want to say you brought it on your self.
Aug 10 2010 04:35 am #71Spikez_tart
Willow could have communed with a snake goddess without cheating on her girlfriend - If Kennedy was your girlfriend that Snake Goddess would be looking pretty good.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Buffy is now officially bi-sexual now - with all the WOW's she was telling Satsu - Buffy has experienced great sexual pleasure with both sexes now - there is no turning back the ship now.
It will be really interesting to see if Joss actually goes with his idea of Slayers becoming pariahs let loose on society - maybe the rogue slayers is as far as he will take that idea.
It will be really interesting to see if Joss actually goes with his idea of Slayers becoming pariahs let loose on society - maybe the rogue slayers is as far as he will take that idea.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 10 2010 11:29 am #73ladycat713
Guest
The Scoobies have become a prime example of power corrupts. For all thier complaining about the Watcher's council they've actually managed to do worse and on a much larger scale.
First example of that was activating all those girls. Surely they could have limited the spell to Sunnydale itself , at least those girls had a say in what was happening to them. There still would have plenty of fodder for storylines and how those girls reintegrate into society. With too many Slayers you really cease to care , it's all just a blur, they only seem to be necessary in the storyline to go bad, be killed or have Xander or Buffy sleep with. And if that's all they wanted more Slayers for there were still enough on the bus to do that. Kennedy for example would have been a great one to go bad given that she seems to have an elitest attitude , especially with Willow's power at her back making her feel stronger.
The mass activation was especially heinous when you take into account Buffy's years of complaining about being a Slayer. The Whedonverse seems very sexist in that it doesn't let women really take responsibility for thier actions, it's brushed off as the result of magic or someone elses fault. The only female to really take responsibility was Faith and that's probably only because she's not considered to be girly , Xander OTOH doesn't take responsibility because he's one of the girks.
First example of that was activating all those girls. Surely they could have limited the spell to Sunnydale itself , at least those girls had a say in what was happening to them. There still would have plenty of fodder for storylines and how those girls reintegrate into society. With too many Slayers you really cease to care , it's all just a blur, they only seem to be necessary in the storyline to go bad, be killed or have Xander or Buffy sleep with. And if that's all they wanted more Slayers for there were still enough on the bus to do that. Kennedy for example would have been a great one to go bad given that she seems to have an elitest attitude , especially with Willow's power at her back making her feel stronger.
The mass activation was especially heinous when you take into account Buffy's years of complaining about being a Slayer. The Whedonverse seems very sexist in that it doesn't let women really take responsibility for thier actions, it's brushed off as the result of magic or someone elses fault. The only female to really take responsibility was Faith and that's probably only because she's not considered to be girly , Xander OTOH doesn't take responsibility because he's one of the girks.
Aug 10 2010 01:10 pm #74ghostyouknow27
Guest
On the bi-sexuality ...
Willow: I'm sure there are plenty of women who have slept with men and thought it was fine at the time, but who later discovered that they prefer women. Willow doesn't seem to be interested in sexual or romantic relationships with men, at all, ever again, so why would she identify as "bi?"
Buffy: Obviously, she has bisexual leanings (because people on the straightest edge of the spectrum don't usually have sex with members of the same sex), but Joss seemed to believe that she was simply experimenting, and Buffy didn't seem interested in a relationship, not just with Satsu, but with any woman. That's why everyone told Satsu there was no future for her and Buffy. She could come out as bi, even if she never sleeps with another woman again. She could continue to self-identify as straight, "except for that one time she was lonely and curious and there was a woman who happened to be in love with her and sex with guys always ends up badly, so." I guess I am just uncomfortable assigning someone else a sexual orientation – self-identification counts for a lot, whether it be as gay, straight, lesbian, asexual, bisexual, bicurious, etc, etc.
Willow: I'm sure there are plenty of women who have slept with men and thought it was fine at the time, but who later discovered that they prefer women. Willow doesn't seem to be interested in sexual or romantic relationships with men, at all, ever again, so why would she identify as "bi?"
Buffy: Obviously, she has bisexual leanings (because people on the straightest edge of the spectrum don't usually have sex with members of the same sex), but Joss seemed to believe that she was simply experimenting, and Buffy didn't seem interested in a relationship, not just with Satsu, but with any woman. That's why everyone told Satsu there was no future for her and Buffy. She could come out as bi, even if she never sleeps with another woman again. She could continue to self-identify as straight, "except for that one time she was lonely and curious and there was a woman who happened to be in love with her and sex with guys always ends up badly, so." I guess I am just uncomfortable assigning someone else a sexual orientation – self-identification counts for a lot, whether it be as gay, straight, lesbian, asexual, bisexual, bicurious, etc, etc.
On the bi-sexuality...
I'm just saying that based on the series, Buffy enjoys very much her sexual life - she has been sexually active, and by her own admission missed having all that great sex - to think that she would not be tempted to have sexual relationships with women now, after Satsu - not sure that she would not go there again. She jumped back into bed with Satsu the second time with not hesitation. And the whole Slayer's and their sexual urges - be in sexual relationships with another slayer would seem like a very likely development for many of the slayers.
But I do believe that Buffy thinks of herself more as a "straight" - just the use of "straight" as a description of sexual orientation pisses me off; the straight and true path, straight shooter, the implication that the heterosexual relationship is "the right" kind of sexual life style.
I'm just saying that based on the series, Buffy enjoys very much her sexual life - she has been sexually active, and by her own admission missed having all that great sex - to think that she would not be tempted to have sexual relationships with women now, after Satsu - not sure that she would not go there again. She jumped back into bed with Satsu the second time with not hesitation. And the whole Slayer's and their sexual urges - be in sexual relationships with another slayer would seem like a very likely development for many of the slayers.
But I do believe that Buffy thinks of herself more as a "straight" - just the use of "straight" as a description of sexual orientation pisses me off; the straight and true path, straight shooter, the implication that the heterosexual relationship is "the right" kind of sexual life style.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Flickr has changed their system - hope that this will still work - it was very easy to share photos before - This is the preview page for Angel Issue 36 - this look like it could be Connor -
Looks like the super easy to share no longer works - here is the link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4880767023/sizes/o/in/photostream/
Looks like the super easy to share no longer works - here is the link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4880767023/sizes/o/in/photostream/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 11 2010 11:52 am #77ladycat713
Guest
I identify Willow as bisexual because when Oz came back ther was a very real and visable struggle with Willow on who to choose. If sleeping with Oz was a matter of her doing what she thought she was supposed to do then I don't think she would have that struggle. I do think that a lot of the gay now bit was because of Anya's justifiable jealousy over Willow's influence on Xander. The other part had to do with Willow being a control freak.
The definition of bisexual is someone who is sexually responsive to both sexes. Both Willow and Buffy fit that. No matter how many times Buffy says she is traight and Wilow says she's gay they aren't.
The whole experimenting thing rubs me the wrong way. You don't experiment with someone you know is in love with you. It's cruel and selfish. Satsu is a human being not a vibrator. If a woman wants to experiemnt with another woman, hire a professional, ask a friend you know swings that way, go to a lesbian bar and let yourself get picked up. All are better ways to go about it. Buffy had way too much power over Satsu even without Satsu being in love and she abused it . With great power comes great responsibility and it was Buffy's moral responsibility to do the right thing . She could have turned Satsu down gently and told her she was going to reassign her to another country because Satsu was making her feel awkward which would be much classier than promoting her after sleeping with her and then ignoring her.
This all makes me think that the inferiority part of that superiority inferiority complex the vamp shrink said she had may be gone . She seems to have taken Faith's original want take have policy and run with to an extreme level and taught others the same.
Not to mention that it would be nice if the Scoobies could learn from thier mistakes but they only repeat them and they don't seem to feel remorse for them.
There's nothing sexy about Buffy's use of Satsu , it's just makes Buffy repuslive. If a man who had always slept with men had done this , would people be calling it sexy because he was experimenting? I don't think so. They'd be righteously pissed at him for sbusing the trust of a girl under his command that was in love with him.
There are two good essays about the way gender is portrayed with Buffy where women rarely ever take the blame or admit to wrongdoing and men repeatedly suffer for the same or a lesser crime.
Examples of this Willow's successful multiple rapes of Tara's mind and body
Spike's attempted rape of Buffy after her month's long abuse and mixed signals
http://www.allaboutspike.com/gender.html
http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/essays/DomesticAbuse.html
and here's a review of season 6 which brings up some more points that still are relevant.
http://www.allaboutspike.com/barb.html
The definition of bisexual is someone who is sexually responsive to both sexes. Both Willow and Buffy fit that. No matter how many times Buffy says she is traight and Wilow says she's gay they aren't.
The whole experimenting thing rubs me the wrong way. You don't experiment with someone you know is in love with you. It's cruel and selfish. Satsu is a human being not a vibrator. If a woman wants to experiemnt with another woman, hire a professional, ask a friend you know swings that way, go to a lesbian bar and let yourself get picked up. All are better ways to go about it. Buffy had way too much power over Satsu even without Satsu being in love and she abused it . With great power comes great responsibility and it was Buffy's moral responsibility to do the right thing . She could have turned Satsu down gently and told her she was going to reassign her to another country because Satsu was making her feel awkward which would be much classier than promoting her after sleeping with her and then ignoring her.
This all makes me think that the inferiority part of that superiority inferiority complex the vamp shrink said she had may be gone . She seems to have taken Faith's original want take have policy and run with to an extreme level and taught others the same.
Not to mention that it would be nice if the Scoobies could learn from thier mistakes but they only repeat them and they don't seem to feel remorse for them.
There's nothing sexy about Buffy's use of Satsu , it's just makes Buffy repuslive. If a man who had always slept with men had done this , would people be calling it sexy because he was experimenting? I don't think so. They'd be righteously pissed at him for sbusing the trust of a girl under his command that was in love with him.
There are two good essays about the way gender is portrayed with Buffy where women rarely ever take the blame or admit to wrongdoing and men repeatedly suffer for the same or a lesser crime.
Examples of this Willow's successful multiple rapes of Tara's mind and body
Spike's attempted rape of Buffy after her month's long abuse and mixed signals
http://www.allaboutspike.com/gender.html
http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/essays/DomesticAbuse.html
and here's a review of season 6 which brings up some more points that still are relevant.
http://www.allaboutspike.com/barb.html
Aug 12 2010 02:14 am #78ghostyouknow27
Guest
I identify Willow as bisexual because when Oz came back ther was a very real and visable struggle with Willow on who to choose. If sleeping with Oz was a matter of her doing what she thought she was supposed to do then I don't think she would have that struggle. I do think that a lot of the gay now bit was because of Anya's justifiable jealousy over Willow's influence on Xander. The other part had to do with Willow being a control freak.
The definition of bisexual is someone who is sexually responsive to both sexes. Both Willow and Buffy fit that. No matter how many times Buffy says she is traight and Wilow says she's gay they aren't.
~ I don't think Willow slept with Oz because she felt that she had to. I think she loved him, but when she fell in love with Tara, she realized that she was fulfilled in ways that she couldn't be with a man. Willow discovered she was gay. She didn't flirt or check out men. It's clear that she never entertained the thought of another heteronormative relationship, so why would she identify herself as bisexual, which implies that she's interested in both men and women, when she is not? As for Oz ... she cared for the guy. He had gone on some quest to control his wolf just for her. Of course she was going to be torn about hurting him. That doesn't make her any less gay.
And um, what? Anya did not have any influence on Willow's sexuality. At all. Willow was gay. Willow stated that she was gay, because she is. She was getting defensive in that particular moment, but she reiterates that she is gay over and over throughout the series. Never once does she identify as bisexual.
Joss discusses Buffy/Satsu and Willow here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/books/05buffy.html?_r=1
He makes it clear that 1)Willow went gay 2)Buffy was experimenting 3)Whether or not Buffy took advantage of Satsu was a question he wanted to raise
There's nothing sexy about Buffy's use of Satsu , it's just makes Buffy repuslive. If a man who had always slept with men had done this , would people be calling it sexy because he was experimenting? I don't think so. They'd be righteously pissed at him for sbusing the trust of a girl under his command that was in love with him.
~ Personally, f/f slash does nothing for me, so I can't weigh in on the sexiness. But if a man had done the same thing, I'd probably react to it in the same way. I would say it's irresponsible, but if he were 100 percent honest about his feelings and intentions, then some of the responsibility would belong to his female partner. That said, considering our cultural narratives, a man in a position of power using a woman does strike a harsher note than a woman using a woman, because woman are victims of male privilege. I think Buffy gets a little more leeway in her choice of sexual partners (not her treatment of them) because she's a superhero and the Slayers are isolated from other groups. I don't remember people freaking out about Xander and Renee, and Renee worked under Xander.
I agree that men and women are treated differently in the Buffyverse. I'm not arguing about that.
The definition of bisexual is someone who is sexually responsive to both sexes. Both Willow and Buffy fit that. No matter how many times Buffy says she is traight and Wilow says she's gay they aren't.
~ I don't think Willow slept with Oz because she felt that she had to. I think she loved him, but when she fell in love with Tara, she realized that she was fulfilled in ways that she couldn't be with a man. Willow discovered she was gay. She didn't flirt or check out men. It's clear that she never entertained the thought of another heteronormative relationship, so why would she identify herself as bisexual, which implies that she's interested in both men and women, when she is not? As for Oz ... she cared for the guy. He had gone on some quest to control his wolf just for her. Of course she was going to be torn about hurting him. That doesn't make her any less gay.
And um, what? Anya did not have any influence on Willow's sexuality. At all. Willow was gay. Willow stated that she was gay, because she is. She was getting defensive in that particular moment, but she reiterates that she is gay over and over throughout the series. Never once does she identify as bisexual.
Joss discusses Buffy/Satsu and Willow here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/books/05buffy.html?_r=1
He makes it clear that 1)Willow went gay 2)Buffy was experimenting 3)Whether or not Buffy took advantage of Satsu was a question he wanted to raise
There's nothing sexy about Buffy's use of Satsu , it's just makes Buffy repuslive. If a man who had always slept with men had done this , would people be calling it sexy because he was experimenting? I don't think so. They'd be righteously pissed at him for sbusing the trust of a girl under his command that was in love with him.
~ Personally, f/f slash does nothing for me, so I can't weigh in on the sexiness. But if a man had done the same thing, I'd probably react to it in the same way. I would say it's irresponsible, but if he were 100 percent honest about his feelings and intentions, then some of the responsibility would belong to his female partner. That said, considering our cultural narratives, a man in a position of power using a woman does strike a harsher note than a woman using a woman, because woman are victims of male privilege. I think Buffy gets a little more leeway in her choice of sexual partners (not her treatment of them) because she's a superhero and the Slayers are isolated from other groups. I don't remember people freaking out about Xander and Renee, and Renee worked under Xander.
I agree that men and women are treated differently in the Buffyverse. I'm not arguing about that.
Aug 12 2010 12:22 pm #79ladycat713
Guest
I didn't mean that Anya had anything to do with Willow's sexual orientation , I meant that she's the reason Willow went around loudly identifying herself as gay now in order to try to convince Anya that Willow wasn't a threat to Anya and Xander's relationship. Willow was a threat just not necessarily a sexual one. And and even bigger argument of Willow being bisexual than her relationship with Oz is that she cheated on Oz with Xander and felt that she had to resort to a delusting spell to stop it. I don't really buy the whole attidtude that suddenly someone can flip a switch and become gay, by saying that someone can flip like that it gives justification to those who think homosexuality can be cured . The mother of my deceased brother's longtime boyfriend (probably common law husband since Jimmy died before it became legal for them to marry) wanted Brian to "get cured" , get married to a woman and have children.
Femslash does nothing for me either , I'm repeating what many said(mostly fanboys) said about Buffy Satsu.
A hero should be held to at least a halfway decent standard not a lower one than the rest of us. And powers don't make you a hero. Supervillians can have powers too.
I don't care that Buffy was with a woman , that means nothing to me. It's the massive abuse of power by her yet again using someone who loves her for sex.
And I think the main reason (besides deliberate hype about the girl on girl to keep the sales going no matter how bad things get) has to do with the levels of balance. Renee and Xander's emotional levels were close if not the same. Buffy wanted to get laid, Satsu wanted to be loved and was in love. Buffy is The Slayer (the one to emulate and admire) in charge of all, Xander's a Scoobie sidekick in charge of some.With Xander it ended with Renee's death, With Buffy , she promoted Satsu out of the country and then ignored her the next time she saw her.Buffy was leading Satsu on (acknowledged by Kennedy), Xander wasn't.
Exacerbating this is that Buffy has not learned by both her mistakes and others to her. She gave Satsu hope by sleeping with her thereby negating what originally looked to be a good way to behave (until you saw them in bed together the next issue) by letting her know it was never gonna happen . Sleeping with her basically said that it could happen just like kissing Spike all the while saying said it couldn't happen gave him hope. This isn't her first time doing this. Doing it once is an error in judgement, twice is a fatal flaw.
She also didn't learn from what happened with Parker . While Buffy wasn't in love she was looking for a relationship,. he was just looking to get and cross her off a list. Even without loving him, she was incredibly hurt by the fact that he used her and then brushed her off like she was nothing. Parker was scum to do so but even though he led her on making her think there would be a relationship by words, Buffy led Satsu on by her sexual actions. Parker was a college guy on the make, Buffy was the hero to look up to and admire. Considering how hurt Buffy was by the treatment by this college guy , how much more would Satsu be hurt when Buffy ignored her existance the next time she saw her when it would truly sink in that all her love and admiration and the gift of her body was given to someone who ultimately didn't give a damn about her.
I don't think that women sheould be given leeway because of being victims of male privelage. If anything knowing how it feels should make you more compassionate . I've known more abusive women than men in my life and the women were more violent. My mother in particular showed no remorse even going so far as to pretend she did nothing by saying that's why I never hit my kids when I'm the only one in the room.
I'm wondering if someone at the helm has serious issues with women.Think of what this season says to men. The use of Satsu basically says it's ok to use a woman who loves you for sex because women do it too (even the heroes!). Willow and Dawn both cheating says that women cheat (and really the statistics should have made it only one . The number of 2 is low if you consider all the new Slayers but not if you only think of regular Buffy characters.
The main difference I see between Xander/Renee and Buffy/Satsu, and what makes Xander/Renne acceptable, is how it was protrayed. Xander and Renee were working towards a relationship, while Buffy was with Satsu for a one night stand. Also, Buffy was in the highest position possible -general- in her army, while Satsu is either a private or corporal (maybe sargent, but I doubt it). Xander, while in a postion on power, is maybe a leftenient, thus making the rank gap between him and Renee significatnly less. Thus the potential abuse of power isn't as large.
Oh, and forgive the military speak- years of cadets has taken over my brain. lol.
Oh, and forgive the military speak- years of cadets has taken over my brain. lol.
~ Niori ~
"I'm wondering if someone at the helm has serious issues with women.Think of what this season says to men. The use of Satsu basically says it's ok to use a woman who loves you for sex because women do it too (even the heroes!). Willow and Dawn both cheating says that women cheat (and really the statistics should have made it only one . The number of 2 is low if you consider all the new Slayers but not if you only think of regular Buffy characters."
Think what disturbs me the most of this season, and particularly the entire Angel/Twangel, is the message, anyway the message I get, that women are the victims and that it doesn't matter. Buffy, experimenting sexually? If that were true and what was going on, why present it in the context Satsu being truly in love with her and why set-up their sexual encounter with Buffy's monologue on her longing for Home, her memories and all that was destroyed in Sunnydale. Why the need to And it's interesting that Buffy clearly mentioned all that great sex - she cannot be thinking of Angel, since that only happened one time - this leaves us with Riley and Spike, and of these two, I would go with Spike as the "great sex memory." The great Buffy was once again feeling disconnected and very lonely, and she falls back on her use of people who she knows have great affection and love for her. Not saying that Satsu did not understand, and accept, the circumstances of their sexual relationship, but Buffy's been through so much pain and suffering, pain that was done to her, and pain that she inflicts on Spike. "Sexual Experimentation" is not, IMVHO, the story that was presented, if that was the intent, it was not a success.
A theme of "sexual experimentation" could have been presented without bringing back the elements of the Buffy-Spike relationship; readers can help but remember that Buffy used Spike for sexual and emotional needs, not out of love. I won't be at all surprised if Satsu continues to be effected by this sexual relationship. But more important in this story and this arc is how it connects to the next "great muppety Odin sex" that follows with Angel/Twangel - Doesn't it matter that Buffy jumps right into the arms of her former lover who has been such a destructive force against the Slayers that she has sworn to lead and be responsible for? This is the very same person that previously beat the hell out of Satsu and Buffy both. Something is really wrong with this story and how women are being used. Buffy does not seem at all to care that Angel/Twangel has victimized her Slayers, nothing in that Twilight Realm encounter post Cosmic Sex indicates that Buffy is even thinking about what Angel/Twangel did as her enemy "Twilight." It's like Jenny Calendar all over again - kill a woman and because Buffy is so in love and needy for this man, it does not matter.
All we can do is wait to see how Joss Whedon will resolve all of this - but from the perspective of a great many women readers and fans, he has a hell of a lot of crap that needs to be answered. For a lot of the devoted Buffyverse fans, he has seriously trashed his two prime characters.
Think what disturbs me the most of this season, and particularly the entire Angel/Twangel, is the message, anyway the message I get, that women are the victims and that it doesn't matter. Buffy, experimenting sexually? If that were true and what was going on, why present it in the context Satsu being truly in love with her and why set-up their sexual encounter with Buffy's monologue on her longing for Home, her memories and all that was destroyed in Sunnydale. Why the need to And it's interesting that Buffy clearly mentioned all that great sex - she cannot be thinking of Angel, since that only happened one time - this leaves us with Riley and Spike, and of these two, I would go with Spike as the "great sex memory." The great Buffy was once again feeling disconnected and very lonely, and she falls back on her use of people who she knows have great affection and love for her. Not saying that Satsu did not understand, and accept, the circumstances of their sexual relationship, but Buffy's been through so much pain and suffering, pain that was done to her, and pain that she inflicts on Spike. "Sexual Experimentation" is not, IMVHO, the story that was presented, if that was the intent, it was not a success.
A theme of "sexual experimentation" could have been presented without bringing back the elements of the Buffy-Spike relationship; readers can help but remember that Buffy used Spike for sexual and emotional needs, not out of love. I won't be at all surprised if Satsu continues to be effected by this sexual relationship. But more important in this story and this arc is how it connects to the next "great muppety Odin sex" that follows with Angel/Twangel - Doesn't it matter that Buffy jumps right into the arms of her former lover who has been such a destructive force against the Slayers that she has sworn to lead and be responsible for? This is the very same person that previously beat the hell out of Satsu and Buffy both. Something is really wrong with this story and how women are being used. Buffy does not seem at all to care that Angel/Twangel has victimized her Slayers, nothing in that Twilight Realm encounter post Cosmic Sex indicates that Buffy is even thinking about what Angel/Twangel did as her enemy "Twilight." It's like Jenny Calendar all over again - kill a woman and because Buffy is so in love and needy for this man, it does not matter.
All we can do is wait to see how Joss Whedon will resolve all of this - but from the perspective of a great many women readers and fans, he has a hell of a lot of crap that needs to be answered. For a lot of the devoted Buffyverse fans, he has seriously trashed his two prime characters.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 13 2010 01:47 pm #82ghostyouknow27
Guest
I didn't mean that Anya had anything to do with Willow's sexual orientation , I meant that she's the reason Willow went around loudly identifying herself as gay now in order to try to convince Anya that Willow wasn't a threat to Anya and Xander's relationship. Willow was a threat just not necessarily a sexual one. And and even bigger argument of Willow being bisexual than her relationship with Oz is that she cheated on Oz with Xander and felt that she had to resort to a delusting spell to stop it. I don't really buy the whole attidtude that suddenly someone can flip a switch and become gay, by saying that someone can flip like that it gives justification to those who think homosexuality can be cured . The mother of my deceased brother's longtime boyfriend (probably common law husband since Jimmy died before it became legal for them to marry) wanted Brian to "get cured" , get married to a woman and have children.
I don't think Willow flipped a switch – I think she discovered that she'd been gay all along. When she talks with Kennedy, she doesn't say "When did you go?," but "When did you know?" Willow refers to being gay several times, not just when Anya's putting her on the defensive. Never once does she mention being interested in men. Even if she is, deep down, bi, it would make no sense for her to identify as bi, when she's clearly only interested in lesbian relationships. And I am very, very sorry for your brother's partner's experience. That kind of bigotry is so hurtful and destructive. Even if there is fluidity in sexuality, it is not okay (or possible) to control or determine someone else's orientation (I've ranted about "turning someone x" in ffic before).
A hero should be held to at least a halfway decent standard not a lower one than the rest of us. And powers don't make you a hero. Supervillians can have powers too.
That's not really what I meant. I meant that, in a world of vampires, demons, kitten poker and sexbots, characters have a little more allowance. Spuffy's without a doubt the most violent pairing I've ever shipped. I know I wouldn't ship if they were two humans who just happened to punch each other a lot. That doesn't mean I'm going "woot! beating's fun if you have superpowers!" because both of them behave terribly and it's hard to watch, but it's not quite the same as watching two normal people do the same thing, because both Buffy and Spike are inherently violent creatures, and we're used to seeing them fight long before the relationship turns sexual.
In terms of S8, I just think that sleeping with a subordinate is a little more excusable for a Slayer or a Scoob than for anyone in real life, because who else is there? That doesn't address the using issue, just the subordinate issue (it sounds like it's okay for Xander and Renee because the relationship itself is on equal ground, and I think that's fine, but it is still Xander and someone working under his command, so obviously, we don't totally object to those kinds of relationships in all circumstances).
Considering how hurt Buffy was by the treatment by this college guy , how much more would Satsu be hurt when Buffy ignored her existance the next time she saw her when it would truly sink in that all her love and admiration and the gift of her body was given to someone who ultimately didn't give a damn about her.
The difference between Parker and Buffy was that Buffy was upfront and honest. If Satsu chose to believe differently, that's not Buffy's fault. I agree that Buffy was irresponsible and that she handled things badly. I just don't think that a one-night stand has to determine your entire sexual identity. I do think it's a terrible pattern for Buffy to continue sleeping with people who love her when she can't feel the same. There's no doubt about that. If Satsu was just bored and wanted some fun, there'd be nothing to object to.
I don't think that women sheould be given leeway because of being victims of male privelage. If anything knowing how it feels should make you more compassionate . I've known more abusive women than men in my life and the women were more violent.
That's not what being a victim of male privilege means. Male privilege means that men enjoy greater freedoms than women, find it easier to succeed professionally and are subject to double standards that work in their favor purely because they are men. In the example of a male sleeping with a subordinate versus a woman sleeping with a subordinate, culturally, the first example will read as the greater offense, because of a historical and cultural context in which men hold power over women in ways that have nothing to do with their job title. Even though women have a long history of controlling and shaming other women, I don't think it carries the same weight in pop culture.
Being a second class citizen does not excuse female abusers. And male privilege does not always work in favor of men. It's much harder for male rape victims to be taken seriously, for example (and it's not like female rape victims have an easy time dealing with the system). Just look at Hollywood, where males getting raped is usually played for laughs.
I'm wondering if someone at the helm has serious issues with women.Think of what this season says to men. The use of Satsu basically says it's ok to use a woman who loves you for sex because women do it too (even the heroes!). Willow and Dawn both cheating says that women cheat (and really the statistics should have made it only one . The number of 2 is low if you consider all the new Slayers but not if you only think of regular Buffy characters.
Actually, I think it would be really nice if BtVS moved away from punishing female characters for having sex.
I think overall, Buffy's behavior in S8 is unusually callous in all areas of her life. And sleeping with Twangel was just so OOC that it makes me want to punch things.
I don't think Willow flipped a switch – I think she discovered that she'd been gay all along. When she talks with Kennedy, she doesn't say "When did you go?," but "When did you know?" Willow refers to being gay several times, not just when Anya's putting her on the defensive. Never once does she mention being interested in men. Even if she is, deep down, bi, it would make no sense for her to identify as bi, when she's clearly only interested in lesbian relationships. And I am very, very sorry for your brother's partner's experience. That kind of bigotry is so hurtful and destructive. Even if there is fluidity in sexuality, it is not okay (or possible) to control or determine someone else's orientation (I've ranted about "turning someone x" in ffic before).
A hero should be held to at least a halfway decent standard not a lower one than the rest of us. And powers don't make you a hero. Supervillians can have powers too.
That's not really what I meant. I meant that, in a world of vampires, demons, kitten poker and sexbots, characters have a little more allowance. Spuffy's without a doubt the most violent pairing I've ever shipped. I know I wouldn't ship if they were two humans who just happened to punch each other a lot. That doesn't mean I'm going "woot! beating's fun if you have superpowers!" because both of them behave terribly and it's hard to watch, but it's not quite the same as watching two normal people do the same thing, because both Buffy and Spike are inherently violent creatures, and we're used to seeing them fight long before the relationship turns sexual.
In terms of S8, I just think that sleeping with a subordinate is a little more excusable for a Slayer or a Scoob than for anyone in real life, because who else is there? That doesn't address the using issue, just the subordinate issue (it sounds like it's okay for Xander and Renee because the relationship itself is on equal ground, and I think that's fine, but it is still Xander and someone working under his command, so obviously, we don't totally object to those kinds of relationships in all circumstances).
Considering how hurt Buffy was by the treatment by this college guy , how much more would Satsu be hurt when Buffy ignored her existance the next time she saw her when it would truly sink in that all her love and admiration and the gift of her body was given to someone who ultimately didn't give a damn about her.
The difference between Parker and Buffy was that Buffy was upfront and honest. If Satsu chose to believe differently, that's not Buffy's fault. I agree that Buffy was irresponsible and that she handled things badly. I just don't think that a one-night stand has to determine your entire sexual identity. I do think it's a terrible pattern for Buffy to continue sleeping with people who love her when she can't feel the same. There's no doubt about that. If Satsu was just bored and wanted some fun, there'd be nothing to object to.
I don't think that women sheould be given leeway because of being victims of male privelage. If anything knowing how it feels should make you more compassionate . I've known more abusive women than men in my life and the women were more violent.
That's not what being a victim of male privilege means. Male privilege means that men enjoy greater freedoms than women, find it easier to succeed professionally and are subject to double standards that work in their favor purely because they are men. In the example of a male sleeping with a subordinate versus a woman sleeping with a subordinate, culturally, the first example will read as the greater offense, because of a historical and cultural context in which men hold power over women in ways that have nothing to do with their job title. Even though women have a long history of controlling and shaming other women, I don't think it carries the same weight in pop culture.
Being a second class citizen does not excuse female abusers. And male privilege does not always work in favor of men. It's much harder for male rape victims to be taken seriously, for example (and it's not like female rape victims have an easy time dealing with the system). Just look at Hollywood, where males getting raped is usually played for laughs.
I'm wondering if someone at the helm has serious issues with women.Think of what this season says to men. The use of Satsu basically says it's ok to use a woman who loves you for sex because women do it too (even the heroes!). Willow and Dawn both cheating says that women cheat (and really the statistics should have made it only one . The number of 2 is low if you consider all the new Slayers but not if you only think of regular Buffy characters.
Actually, I think it would be really nice if BtVS moved away from punishing female characters for having sex.
I think overall, Buffy's behavior in S8 is unusually callous in all areas of her life. And sleeping with Twangel was just so OOC that it makes me want to punch things.
Is Faith the only character that has sex in the Buffyverse TV era and is never punished for it? The BAD GIRL persona model. I have to say, that for all the compliaints about Buffy and how she has used people who love her - this character has been treated worst than anyone - Buffy & Spike both are the "poster kids" for terrible life experiences with love and sex. Buffy has been treated as Young Teen falling for older male/vamp and having her life overwhelmed from that relationship. She has been turned into a would be murderess, a physical and imotional abuser, an emotionally stagnated young woman, pitiful self-respect with Parker and the returning Riley. She has had to face all that crap from her father figure regarding Spike- and now we have her in this entanglement with Angel/Twangel and the Cosmic Sex. and how conduct in the Twilight Realm. Unresolved story thus for season 8, but this character has been put through the ringer and suffered more from her love experiences than anyone else. Spike had to deal with all the pain, emotional and physical from his life with Drusilla and then the Sunnydale Dru-Angelus mess and then all his pain and troubles from his love for Buffy. At least Spike ended up finding his humanity and from his relationship with Buffy and the Scoobies, finds his inner hero and spiritual grace again. Poor Buffy, is still seemingly caught in the same "bad choices & love" pattern that she suffered from in her first love experience with Angel/Angelus.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 14 2010 12:53 pm #84pfeifferpack
Faith was punished for her wicked ways too.
She is an outcast and was in prison as well.
Part of the MO used to brand her the bad girl
was her open sexuality (not just with Xander but
her attempted seduction of Angel among other things).
None escape the aftermath of sex in the Buffyverse.
KAthleen
She is an outcast and was in prison as well.
Part of the MO used to brand her the bad girl
was her open sexuality (not just with Xander but
her attempted seduction of Angel among other things).
None escape the aftermath of sex in the Buffyverse.
KAthleen
It's and interesting treatment of the characters and the role models that the only prime character who ever had "legal law system" consequences for her actions was the Bad Girl Faith - Buffy, Xander and Willow all either killed someone, killed someone by effects of magic ritual, or like Buffy planned on exchanging Faith's life for Angel's. I don't count Giles killing Ben, but he also through his use of magic as Ripper had a death connected with him.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 20 2010 07:41 pm #86SpaceLord
Guest
Well I think that this whole losing his soul and not knowing it is really dumb. How would he not know? I'm not saying I know what an actual soul is but that is reality and as it was put by George Lucas (paraphrase here) "If I decide that the guns should sound in space that
is ok but then I will have to keep that part of the lore" regarding the fact that some of the stuff in Star Wars made no real sense, now we come to the soul and from my recollection he was on a massive guilt trip in S7 and even though he pulled through I somehow doubt that the
guilt would just go away, I mean just imagine soldiers in WWII and then the show Pacific which had a lot of people close to those soldiers who fought saying that it never went away for them and that they had constant nightmares. Angels guilt never seems to go away.
I would think that he was able to live with it but that it would always be with him but that it would just go away that particular guilt if he had no soul. So even though I don't think that soul or no-soul Spike would be much different I just can't believe he wouldn't know himself.
But as I've stated in other posts, it seems that the writers fit the characters into the story and don't really care if "it's in character" or not or if it makes much sense in general as long as they get their chock value.
The only logical explanation I could possibly think of that would make Spike not knowing is if he when he closed the hellmouth but before he died was redeemed and forgiven so that when he had his soul he was no longer burden by guilt but that would mean he was
favoured and we all know that is Angels place.
is ok but then I will have to keep that part of the lore" regarding the fact that some of the stuff in Star Wars made no real sense, now we come to the soul and from my recollection he was on a massive guilt trip in S7 and even though he pulled through I somehow doubt that the
guilt would just go away, I mean just imagine soldiers in WWII and then the show Pacific which had a lot of people close to those soldiers who fought saying that it never went away for them and that they had constant nightmares. Angels guilt never seems to go away.
I would think that he was able to live with it but that it would always be with him but that it would just go away that particular guilt if he had no soul. So even though I don't think that soul or no-soul Spike would be much different I just can't believe he wouldn't know himself.
But as I've stated in other posts, it seems that the writers fit the characters into the story and don't really care if "it's in character" or not or if it makes much sense in general as long as they get their chock value.
The only logical explanation I could possibly think of that would make Spike not knowing is if he when he closed the hellmouth but before he died was redeemed and forgiven so that when he had his soul he was no longer burden by guilt but that would mean he was
favoured and we all know that is Angels place.
With all the shit going down now with Angelverse leaving IDW and Dark Horse taking over in late 2011 - and that utterly stupid last question in the latest Scott Allie Interview from Buffyfest and his, IMO, completely Not Clever Flippant Answer, what is going to happen to all these characters and the IDW stories now is very uncertain. And while we all understand that Scott Allie and the Buffyfest Interviewer were taking a swipe at all the "Scott Hates Spike" fan history - I still found it completely insensitive and not as clever and funny as these two seemed to think so.
And BTW, there was nothing that was not obvious in the Sam-Riley Buffy-Angel parallels - nor in the connections to warfare and the Powers that imposed their will and "Truths" on to the lives of other people. What serendipity that this issue comes out just as the RL - Powers That Be and Super Powers and the wars inflicted in this realm by all these forces working "for the Better World or The Truth" are making the headlines on our news. Make no mistake, I am not making a comment on the Brave Soldiers of the USA and all the Iraqis, it is nothing but tragedy on a colossal scale what has happened and continues to happen in that area. It is to the Powers behind everything, from all sides involved, that I am speaking about. What the writer intended with all the Religious symbols I can only speak to from how I interpret this issue, but all it make me think of was how Angel/Twangel and Whistler are all about Faith in their "Truths" and their personal agendas. When in the Hell in Buffy going to be allowed to control her own life and destiny. I'm with Spike, he wants to control his own destiny and his new restored humanity and soul.
I will post my scans from some the Issue 36 panels later today at my Flickr site - Isn't there some way that we can upload images directly here? is Photobucket the only photo share site that works here now?
And BTW, there was nothing that was not obvious in the Sam-Riley Buffy-Angel parallels - nor in the connections to warfare and the Powers that imposed their will and "Truths" on to the lives of other people. What serendipity that this issue comes out just as the RL - Powers That Be and Super Powers and the wars inflicted in this realm by all these forces working "for the Better World or The Truth" are making the headlines on our news. Make no mistake, I am not making a comment on the Brave Soldiers of the USA and all the Iraqis, it is nothing but tragedy on a colossal scale what has happened and continues to happen in that area. It is to the Powers behind everything, from all sides involved, that I am speaking about. What the writer intended with all the Religious symbols I can only speak to from how I interpret this issue, but all it make me think of was how Angel/Twangel and Whistler are all about Faith in their "Truths" and their personal agendas. When in the Hell in Buffy going to be allowed to control her own life and destiny. I'm with Spike, he wants to control his own destiny and his new restored humanity and soul.
I will post my scans from some the Issue 36 panels later today at my Flickr site - Isn't there some way that we can upload images directly here? is Photobucket the only photo share site that works here now?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here is the official IDW announcement from Chris Ryall about IDW and the Angelverse - man shows his class IMO.
Scott Allie must think readers are really dumb if his "I screwed up" explanation - this man is a professional working in his field for years now - this type of information is not something that is inadvertently put on your column.
IDW’s Final Angel Story Arc to Bring in New Creators, Old Nemesis
Thursday, Aug 19th, 2010 - Wolfram & Hart Return IDW and Dark Horse Series Converge
IDW Publishing today confirmed that it will launch the company's final ANGEL story arc in November. IDW has published ANGEL comics since 2005, and this closing six-issue arc will serve as a bridge to Dark Horse Publishing, which will pick up the series in late 2011. Under the direction of BUFFY and ANGEL creator Joss Whedon, all parties are working together for as seamless a transition as possible. The companies have been coordinating storylines in both Dark Horse's BUFFY and IDW's ANGEL, creating a greater sense of cohesion and cooperation to ensure that this transition is true to both ongoing storylines and to the faithful fans of both series. News of the upcoming change was recently revealed by Dark Horse Publishing, without coordination with IDW. "Dark Horse really regrets that this news was released before a joint statement from both companies was issued," said Dark Horse Senior Editor Scott Allie. "Behind the scenes, we'd been working closely with IDW to ensure that the hand-off went smoothly. It was never our intent to catch Angel or IDW readers unaware. We've been working directly with Chris, Mariah and Brian on the interaction and the overlap between the storylines, and we think it's gonna be a lot of fun for everyone." IDW's ANGEL #39 is the first step in this closer co-existence. The issue introduces new series writers David Tischman (ANGEL: BARBARY COAST) and his TRUE BLOOD co-writer, Mariah Huehner, who kick off IDW's final six-part storyline entitled "The Wolf, The Ram & The Heart," which should give fans a good indication of just who the final tale's "big bad" will be. Longtime ANGEL readers know just how big and how bad Wolfram & Hart can be. Issue #39 is also an excellent jumping on point for new readers, as it begins a new storyline for Angel and his crew. Chris Ryall, IDW's Chief Creative Officer said, "We've loved the half-decade of publishing the exploits of ANGEL, and the fan support has been truly inspiring and appreciated. The fact that steps are being taken by both companies to tie the books more closely together is something I've long wanted to do. This will not only ensure a smooth hand-off back to Dark Horse, it will also give the fans a cohesive storyline and explain some of the lingering questions they might have. While I hate to see Angel go, I know Joss has a vision for where things are headed and I'm excited to be a part of that." Starting in October, Brian Lynch and Franco Urru's ongoing SPIKE series furthers the coordinated storylines. Not only does BUFFY "Scooby Team" member Willow appear in an upcoming issue of SPIKE, but the series will also explain how Spike appeared in BUFFY in a spaceship accompanied by giant alien bugs. In addition to the storylines being told in ANGEL and SPIKE, November's ILLYRIA miniseries by Scott Tipton and ongoing ANGEL artist Elena Casagrande will offer further ties with the two ongoing series, even as it vastly complicates the life of its title character. Added Ryall, "I have nothing but good memories of our time managing Angel's affairs. ANGEL was one of the first series I worked on upon joining IDW, and it introduced me to the great David Messina, who's gone on to tackle the sexy vampires of True Blood for us. David, Franco, [ANGEL artist] Elena Casagrande, along with Stephen Mooney, John Byrne and writers like Jeff Mariotte, Lynch, Tipton, Tischman, Juliet Landau and so many other talented folk... it's truly been one of the most rewarding rides I've had at IDW. I trust that the license will be in good hands with Dark Horse. "I know change is hard for fans - and us publishers, too," Ryall continued, "but I want to remind everyone that we're still going strong and have big plans for ANGEL well into 2011. Another point in our favor here is that the reversion nevertheless allows us to keep all of our ANGEL books in print long after we've stopped releasing new ANGEL comics. So the news might be surprising but the fact is, the stories you've loved aren't going away any time soon. We've still got one last, big year to come, and we'll fight the good fight until the end. Angel wouldn't have it any other way." ANGEL #39 ($3.99, 32 pages, full color) will be available in stores in November. Diamond order code SEP10 0373. SPIKE #1 ($3.99, 32 pages, full color) will be available in stores on October 13th. Diamond order code AUG10 0331. ILLYRIA #1 (of 4, $3.99, 32 pages, full color) will be available in stores in November. Diamond order code SEP10 0368.
Scott Allie must think readers are really dumb if his "I screwed up" explanation - this man is a professional working in his field for years now - this type of information is not something that is inadvertently put on your column.
IDW’s Final Angel Story Arc to Bring in New Creators, Old Nemesis
Thursday, Aug 19th, 2010 - Wolfram & Hart Return IDW and Dark Horse Series Converge
IDW Publishing today confirmed that it will launch the company's final ANGEL story arc in November. IDW has published ANGEL comics since 2005, and this closing six-issue arc will serve as a bridge to Dark Horse Publishing, which will pick up the series in late 2011. Under the direction of BUFFY and ANGEL creator Joss Whedon, all parties are working together for as seamless a transition as possible. The companies have been coordinating storylines in both Dark Horse's BUFFY and IDW's ANGEL, creating a greater sense of cohesion and cooperation to ensure that this transition is true to both ongoing storylines and to the faithful fans of both series. News of the upcoming change was recently revealed by Dark Horse Publishing, without coordination with IDW. "Dark Horse really regrets that this news was released before a joint statement from both companies was issued," said Dark Horse Senior Editor Scott Allie. "Behind the scenes, we'd been working closely with IDW to ensure that the hand-off went smoothly. It was never our intent to catch Angel or IDW readers unaware. We've been working directly with Chris, Mariah and Brian on the interaction and the overlap between the storylines, and we think it's gonna be a lot of fun for everyone." IDW's ANGEL #39 is the first step in this closer co-existence. The issue introduces new series writers David Tischman (ANGEL: BARBARY COAST) and his TRUE BLOOD co-writer, Mariah Huehner, who kick off IDW's final six-part storyline entitled "The Wolf, The Ram & The Heart," which should give fans a good indication of just who the final tale's "big bad" will be. Longtime ANGEL readers know just how big and how bad Wolfram & Hart can be. Issue #39 is also an excellent jumping on point for new readers, as it begins a new storyline for Angel and his crew. Chris Ryall, IDW's Chief Creative Officer said, "We've loved the half-decade of publishing the exploits of ANGEL, and the fan support has been truly inspiring and appreciated. The fact that steps are being taken by both companies to tie the books more closely together is something I've long wanted to do. This will not only ensure a smooth hand-off back to Dark Horse, it will also give the fans a cohesive storyline and explain some of the lingering questions they might have. While I hate to see Angel go, I know Joss has a vision for where things are headed and I'm excited to be a part of that." Starting in October, Brian Lynch and Franco Urru's ongoing SPIKE series furthers the coordinated storylines. Not only does BUFFY "Scooby Team" member Willow appear in an upcoming issue of SPIKE, but the series will also explain how Spike appeared in BUFFY in a spaceship accompanied by giant alien bugs. In addition to the storylines being told in ANGEL and SPIKE, November's ILLYRIA miniseries by Scott Tipton and ongoing ANGEL artist Elena Casagrande will offer further ties with the two ongoing series, even as it vastly complicates the life of its title character. Added Ryall, "I have nothing but good memories of our time managing Angel's affairs. ANGEL was one of the first series I worked on upon joining IDW, and it introduced me to the great David Messina, who's gone on to tackle the sexy vampires of True Blood for us. David, Franco, [ANGEL artist] Elena Casagrande, along with Stephen Mooney, John Byrne and writers like Jeff Mariotte, Lynch, Tipton, Tischman, Juliet Landau and so many other talented folk... it's truly been one of the most rewarding rides I've had at IDW. I trust that the license will be in good hands with Dark Horse. "I know change is hard for fans - and us publishers, too," Ryall continued, "but I want to remind everyone that we're still going strong and have big plans for ANGEL well into 2011. Another point in our favor here is that the reversion nevertheless allows us to keep all of our ANGEL books in print long after we've stopped releasing new ANGEL comics. So the news might be surprising but the fact is, the stories you've loved aren't going away any time soon. We've still got one last, big year to come, and we'll fight the good fight until the end. Angel wouldn't have it any other way." ANGEL #39 ($3.99, 32 pages, full color) will be available in stores in November. Diamond order code SEP10 0373. SPIKE #1 ($3.99, 32 pages, full color) will be available in stores on October 13th. Diamond order code AUG10 0331. ILLYRIA #1 (of 4, $3.99, 32 pages, full color) will be available in stores in November. Diamond order code SEP10 0368.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 21 2010 01:08 am #89SpaceLord
Guest
Probably a little OT but I was over at Dark Horse's forums and for some reason there are only posts about how great season 8 is and all that kind crap. I'm not one for trolling around on boards but on independent buffy boards how is the talk going there? Are most people happy or
do they not think the comics are as good as the show? I mean in here people are not happy, I'm not sure if it's because the lack of spuffy or because of the totally crappy story for most of you but for me it's the story. I've read a few non spuffy fics with Spike and they have actually been
some of the best stories I've read so I'm not so much against Spike not ending up with Buffy but more due to the fact that to me this whole story feels badly plotted and written.
I read over at comics forum someone that posted a reply to the announcement that "Spike appeared in BUFFY in a spaceship accompanied by giant alien bugs" and his fitting remark to that was
"Urgh... it's stuff like that why I can never get into comics based on TV shows.
It's like the moment the writers are not bound by the budget of a weekly TV series they come up with the most ridicolous ideas possible."
That pretty much sums it up for me, same kind of shit that happened when George Lucas got rich and could go crazy with special effects in the prequel trilogy of Star Wars, felt like it was all about the effects and not about the story.
do they not think the comics are as good as the show? I mean in here people are not happy, I'm not sure if it's because the lack of spuffy or because of the totally crappy story for most of you but for me it's the story. I've read a few non spuffy fics with Spike and they have actually been
some of the best stories I've read so I'm not so much against Spike not ending up with Buffy but more due to the fact that to me this whole story feels badly plotted and written.
I read over at comics forum someone that posted a reply to the announcement that "Spike appeared in BUFFY in a spaceship accompanied by giant alien bugs" and his fitting remark to that was
"Urgh... it's stuff like that why I can never get into comics based on TV shows.
It's like the moment the writers are not bound by the budget of a weekly TV series they come up with the most ridicolous ideas possible."
That pretty much sums it up for me, same kind of shit that happened when George Lucas got rich and could go crazy with special effects in the prequel trilogy of Star Wars, felt like it was all about the effects and not about the story.
Yeah, it's not just about lack of Spuffy. I can live without it. I would prefer it didn't happen in the comics actually. My friend doesn't really ship couples, but he prefers Spike/Drusilla over all. I've been telling him the plot of the comics, and I think I made his brain explode when I got to space sex. That just shows that it's the story.
~ Niori ~
Spike's soul went through some extremely powerful magic in the Hellmouth - now that we know Wolfram & Hart will play a big part in the final Angelverse period at IDW - what could be coming is the Great Apocalyptic Battle in which that Angel/Angelus is to play such a crucial part. If Joss Whedon is going to reunite both series together, the great struggle between Angel and Wolfram & Hart would be a wonderful way to bring closure of the Angelverse at IDW and transition to Joss Whedon's new phase of his Buffyverse Saga.
I am both glad and unhappy about the changes coming with the Buffy franchise - while it makes sense that both Buffy and Angel are produced by one production house and with at least some supervision by Joss Whedon - I mostly liked what IDW was doing with The Angelverse. They kind of lost it with the James and Angel cycle and I totally disliked the Bill Willingham run, but all else I liked. I liked the Historical Back Story Issues and I very much liked all the Spike Issues as well as the Shadow Puppet and the Gunn and Illyria arc.
Comparing what was done with the Buffy Season 8 and the IDW works - IDW wins my vote. Buffy Season 8 never really connected with me on a strong emotional level. It did not start to make me care about any of the characters until the "Retreat" arc. The Chain, is the only story that really touched me emotionally. The Brad Meltzer arc connected with me but because of all the negative reactions I had and the moral and ethical questions that were presented. Now I find that what I really care about is, what will happen to the Spuffy relationship and to Spike. And that is wrong, after all these years to find myself in this place where I don't understand Buffy, maybe not even respect the character anymore - and Angel/Twangel, I have just about lost all interest in Angel and his story now. How is it OK to have him beat up on Satsu and Buffy and have him rewarded by having one of his most cherished dreams and desires fulfilled in their cosmic sexual reunion?
Angel/Twangel as Twilight - all that it has done for me is reduce the character to a plot device. Where I once felt a great sympathy for the character and found his story so rich and complex, now all I see is a shadow like character. Perhaps all this will change; there will come a wonderful change in the series that will make Angel/Twangel and his story of pain and sorrow and desperate attempt to find some good and peace in his life compelling again. I keep asking myself, what could possibly create an intellectually satisfying conclusion to the Brad Meltzer arc and all those question that I need to have answered about Angel/Twangel and Buffy. The problem for me is that what I would want is more a philosophical exploration for the conduct and choices presented in the final phase of the season. I don't think that given the time and page space available, that the season finale will deal with those complex themes. I hope that I am wrong.
The Riley One Shot - for all it's simple focus on Riley and Sam and the elements of how they come together as a couple, how they try to deal with the pressures of being warriors and attempting to also live a more normal life, maybe have a family was much more interesting than all that Cosmic Sex and Twilight Love Land. Sam, comes across as a real person, that woman that wants to be strong and independent and does not want to settle for that "Normal Life" that Buffy was so desperate to find when she first reaches out for a relationship with Riley. Her Mr. Joe Normal is anything but normal. The issue was a very good study in contrast as well with the history of relationships in the series. Jane Espenson did a wonderful issue.
The focus on Angel and Whistler, again tight and interesting with all the religious symbols and talk of wars and warriors and choices of faith and duty.
There are still so many questions that need to be dealt with regarding the choices that Angel/Twangel has made and those answers have to an honest intellectual effort - not just some "great escape" for the character or a continuation of this season with an exciting finale and setup for season 9.
For me, the story really does matter - I don't care about super hero characters saving the world, what I care about are the reasons and complexities that motivate these characters. How many readers after the initial fun response to all those "homage to classic comics" care about any of it now? It's like a great big "who cares" - Who the hell much cared about Xander and Dracula? And while the Vampy Cats story was neat, how much development did that story really bring to the season? How much more impact if "Predators & Prey" had been followed up with an exploration of how that encounter effected Buffy and her Slayers. It was very interesting how Andrew's group of Slayers were so loyal to him and how that Slayer does not simply follow Buffy's line of thinking - but actually advices Buffy. That was a big moment in the generalship of Buffy and the story of her Slayer army - when Buffy fails in her mission to liberate that Island that was stolen from those people by Simone and her rogue Slayers.
Well, anyway as Illyria tells Angel, "it is what it is" - and we will all just have to wait and see where Joss Whedon will take his Buffyverse creation. Not sure that I can follow him down a Bangelfest road.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 21 2010 07:50 pm #92SpaceLord
Guest
I just read the Riley one shot and I must say, the white washing has begun. Whistler is there and all, what a crock of shit this will turn out to be. "Do what's right for the planet and not the girl", to actually stand for something is to do the right thing this is just justification I bet Adolf
also thought he was doing the right thing.
also thought he was doing the right thing.
Joss Whedon has always been interested in the realities that people make for themselves - I found all the religious symbols and words of faith and choice very interesting. Their conversation is taking place right on one of God's house of worship and where messengers for God's usually communicate with said Gods. Angel/Twangel and Whistler are sitting right next to the most sacred and important symbol of sacrifice and redemption, but the road to that cross was set with a great betrayal. I still say that Angel is being played by The Rich and Powerful - that lighter and the flame sure makes me think of a mouth being drawn into the flame. What deal does Angel/Twangel make, or what perception of "truths" has him to end up at one of his greatest desires fulfilled via Cosmic Sex Reunion and at Twilight LaLaLove Land?
The entire premise, IMVHO, of Buffy having to transition into the Super Powered Slayer Chosen One is utter nonsense and something that Angel/Angelus seems to be taking on a whole lot of faith. Of the three symbols shown in the "walk in the park" what are potential connections? We have that bird, which made me think of Athena's Owl, the runner possible Hermes/Messenger - can't remember the third figure, think it was a woman.
The entire premise, IMVHO, of Buffy having to transition into the Super Powered Slayer Chosen One is utter nonsense and something that Angel/Angelus seems to be taking on a whole lot of faith. Of the three symbols shown in the "walk in the park" what are potential connections? We have that bird, which made me think of Athena's Owl, the runner possible Hermes/Messenger - can't remember the third figure, think it was a woman.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 23 2010 03:10 am #94Spikez_tart
the white washing has begun - Does Mrs. Riley make an appearance, or have we forgotten all about Mrs. Smug Bitch?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Aug 23 2010 04:02 am #95slaymesoftly
Moderator
She's there, Tart. She urges Riley to help Buffy. Not sure what happens to here when they end up in Twilight's lair. She kind of gets shoved away from him when they carve the symbol on his chest.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
"I just read the Riley one shot and I must say, the white washing has begun. Whistler is there and all, what a crock of shit this will turn out to be. "Do what's right for the planet and not the girl", to actually stand for something is to do the right thing this is just justification I bet Adolf
also thought he was doing the right thing."
But what Angel/Twangel finally does with the Cosmic Sexcapades does not turn out "the good thing" for the world - just the opposite.
I really dislike and hate so much of this comic book season.
What we will finally see is just what Joss Whedon has to say in his Buffyverse about women and their powers, independence, intellect, and freedom of choice. If somehow Angel/Twangel is given the "clear card & justification" for all his actions, his treatment of Satsu and Buffy in "A Beautiful Sunset" and his choice to once again attempt to take over control of Buffy and her "freedom of choice" - this will be the end of my Buffyverse-Joss Whedon devoted fan phase.
No matter how much I want to have a connection with the Buffyverse and Angelverse post TV Era - a white washing of Angel/Twangel and Buffy (if she is not being controlled via green glo) will have to be the end for me. I still have hope that Joss Whedon will conclude this comic book season with an ending that will have a very good reason for what Buffy and Angel/Twangel did in the "Cosmic Sex" craziness - will we all just have to wait and see, that this will not all come from the hand of Joss Whedon takes away from the finale we were all expecting.
also thought he was doing the right thing."
But what Angel/Twangel finally does with the Cosmic Sexcapades does not turn out "the good thing" for the world - just the opposite.
I really dislike and hate so much of this comic book season.
What we will finally see is just what Joss Whedon has to say in his Buffyverse about women and their powers, independence, intellect, and freedom of choice. If somehow Angel/Twangel is given the "clear card & justification" for all his actions, his treatment of Satsu and Buffy in "A Beautiful Sunset" and his choice to once again attempt to take over control of Buffy and her "freedom of choice" - this will be the end of my Buffyverse-Joss Whedon devoted fan phase.
No matter how much I want to have a connection with the Buffyverse and Angelverse post TV Era - a white washing of Angel/Twangel and Buffy (if she is not being controlled via green glo) will have to be the end for me. I still have hope that Joss Whedon will conclude this comic book season with an ending that will have a very good reason for what Buffy and Angel/Twangel did in the "Cosmic Sex" craziness - will we all just have to wait and see, that this will not all come from the hand of Joss Whedon takes away from the finale we were all expecting.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here are some scans from the Riley One Shot - "Commitment through Distance, Virtue through Sin" When you open the image, it will give your the "actions" prompt - click and you can see the image at various sizes. http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
writer: Jane Espenson
Art: Karl Moline
Inks: Andy Owens
Colors: Michelle Madson
Letters: Richard Starkings
Jimmy Betancourt
Executive Producer: Joss Whedon
Riley...Commitment through Distance, Virtue through Sin"
writer: Jane Espenson
Art: Karl Moline
Inks: Andy Owens
Colors: Michelle Madson
Letters: Richard Starkings
Jimmy Betancourt
Executive Producer: Joss Whedon
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Preview Photos from CBR Interview of "Last Gleaming Part One" http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
Select the image then use the "actions" to see all sizes -
Select the image then use the "actions" to see all sizes -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
:-P
:love
:wah:
:(
:drugs:
:um:
:getwriting:
:tsk:
:buhbye:
:coffeelove:
:eatme:
:smooch:
:kiss:
:heartfic:
:shrug:
:sigh:
:drink:
:goodevil:
:what:
:evil:
:hyper:
:lol:
:reading:
:readporn:
:up:
:hand:
:down:
:hurl:
:wave:
:vampire:
:moon:
:D
:boohoo:
:tongue:
:shake:
:lurk:
:happy:
:announce:
:stupid:
:grr:
:)
:wazzup:
:right:
:insane:
:crap:
:poke:
:stalker:
:taped:
:grrarg:
:throughpc:
:fic:
:halo:
:help:
:clap:
:eyebrows:
:bday:
:dance:
:needsmut:
:lash:
:neener:
:bow:
:wall:
:spank:
:butthead:
:hair:
:suck:
:get:
:spuffy:
:soon:
:vamps:
;-)
;)
:-(
:P
:O
:-O
:-D
:blush:
:-)
:cheer:
:sleep:
:pigsfly: