bring myself to watch it. I just can't do it. I don't know why. I'm a wus, plan and simple. Everytime I got  watch it I freeze up and can't follow through. What s wrong with me?

Probably because you can't bear to see a good thing end???  Spike's arrival on Angel really saved the show from the disaster it had become in S4, IMHO; we all thought things were going beautifully, and then suddenly the show's over?  WTF?  You should watch it tho; it was a great episode; and there's some really great scenes; Wes's final scene is amazing (I cry everytime); you should really check it out!  C'mon, be brave!  :lol:

I haven't tried to rewatch it, I have seen Chosen on a number of times but have to leave the room or turn off, when it comes near the end, I can't watch Spike die.

I also can't watch the body, I don't even put it on.

smlcspike

it would be great for members to choose couple of episodes each week and then discuss - maybe one from each series -  would anyone be interested in doing something like this?

<--raises hand to  nmcil's question

Also, as for the original content of the thread, I absolutely love all eppies of Ats s5, and I <3 (and watch them) all.  However, the murdering of Lindsey I felt was senseless, and stupid.   If Angel was asking Lorne to specifically kill him, I don't understand why, and of all people to choose to murder him (which was, again, studpid), why Lorne? I've never see him kill anyone...and out he comes with a pistol. Yeah, okay...

The only episode I can think of on Angel that I prefer not to watch in general is "I Will Remember You," do to the heave factor, and in s5, well, that ep about Nina being a werewolf, where she's first introduced, is kind of dull.  Other than that, no problems here :P

I agree about the killing of Lindsey.  There was no point to that.  He finally helps out in the end and what?  He should die for that?  And asking Lorne to do it was just not cool, Angel should have known how hard that would be for him.  I don't blame him for leaving in the end. 

Wesley's death always gets me teary, but it was so beautifully done.  I love when Illyria lies to him and he gets to pretend that Fred is really with him.

Kill my traitorous self, but I actually really like "I Will Remember You."  It was always one of my favorite Angel episodes.  Of course, when I first saw it I was still more for Bangel, but that episode still manages to get me teary even today.  *runs from crazed Spuffy fans with pitchforks*

They better run from me too, cause I like it too, there are some good Bangel moments for us even if we like Spike, and hey he changed himself back into a Vamp and sent her way sort off, If he did not do that then we would never have had our Spuffy, since Spike was just chipped.

smlcspike

 <--raises hand to  nmcil's question; I'd be very interested in that

I love all the eppies of S5 except for Harm's Way; I can't stand that little blond ditz; the annoyance factor with her is to the power of 10; she drives me nuts.  Other than that, probably Fred's death (I literally SOB everytime I watch it, and my husband sits there going "Why do you do this to yourself???) and Wes'd death.  I also love "Smiletime"  *You're a wee little puppet man!*  That's one of the best lines, that and the swearing you can hear Angel doing in the elevator when he and Spike are fighting *Stupid....limey....*  :lol:

In regards to Lindsey; I think Angel had him killed simply b/c he couldn't trust him; how many times had Lindsey vacillitated b/n good and evil??  And he choose Lorne b/c he knew that Lorne was leaving, and the pistol b/c aside from hitting high notes and making demon's heads explode, Lorne didn't have any fighting skills; but anyone can shoot a gun and hit the target from five feet away.  I think it was also important to showcase the fact that Lindsey wasn't an important villian/hero; like he said, he always thought it would be Angel who took him out, not a sidekick, like Lorne.

Oh, IWRY doesn't make me want to heave cause I'm a Spuffy.  It makes me want to heave cause, well, I found it sickening.  It felt totally ass backwards to me--the whole thing.  That, and before the whole Groo and teen Connor thing, I really wanted him with Cordelia.

And as for Lindsey may or may not turning against Angel, well, he knew Harm would betray him, but didn't kill her.  Lindsey was broken out of a W&H prison by Angel, so I'm sure he had a vendetta against them, and therefore wouldn't betray Angel anytime soon, so I still don't get it :sigh:

I think Angel knew about Lindsey from the vision Cordelia gave him. It's what set that whole end plan in motion. Lorne gets to do it specifically because 1) Lorne couldn't have accomplished any of the other missions, and 2) Lindsey would never expect it, so Lorne was safe to carry it out.

CM

I don't think it was about betraying Angel; it was about the fact that Lindsey was dangerous, not just to Angel, but to everyone; he was power hungry, and amoral, unprincipled...and sarcastic...and sexy...and the accent....... hmmmm, yum....what?  Oh, right...OK, I'm back!  Anyone else thinking Lindsey was a long-haired Mid-west version of Spike??  No wonder Angel couldn't stand him!

I think Angel was thinking he couldn't trust that Lindsey wouldn't take the knowledge he had of the Senior Partners and Wolfram & Hart, and use it for evil purposes; Harmony betrayed Angel, but she didn't do it for power or money, she did it because she liked Hamilton (vapid whore that she is.  I really don't like Harmony, anyone else getting this???  :lol:)  I don't think it was personal for Harmony; she didn't wake up one morning and go "Hmmm, what can I do to really stab Angel in the back?"  Lindsey, however, was another story.

I'm up for discussing eps over a cup of cyber-cocoa.  It would be fun.

As for NFA:  I watched the whole thing, and the end...?  I kept thinking, "What the *&%$?"  I wanted to throw a shoe at my t.v., but I wasn't crying my eyes out like I did with "Chosen."  With that one, I seriously cried for a week, thanks to Mr. Marsters's performance.

I always thought it was interesting that no matter how vacillating Angel could be, he didn't really tolerate it in other people. 

IWRU seemed like the true end for the Bangel relationship, because it was the ultimate revelation, to the viewers at least, that Angel wanted to be the hero more than he wanted to help Buffy.  He didn't think Buffy could survive unless he was super-strong--regardless of the fact that when he was supposed to have first truly helped Buffy, it wasn't his strength that saved her, but Xander's CPR.

As to NFA, I haven't seen it yet, but I love what JM said about it, something to the effect that they wanted to have a really super cool awesome heroic ending, and all they could afford was lots and lots of cold water.

Like FetchingMadScientist, I too cried a lot over Chosen.  I didn't know that James was going over to AtS, so I really thought Spike was dead.  Probably didn't help that I graduated high school the same night that Chosen aired.  Emotions ran high, if memory serves.

Also, I totally cast a vote for the discussion of one episode a week.  That sounds like awesome fun. 

My whole take on Angel becoming a vamp again. I don't think he trully wants to be human. Period. He clams that he wants to be, that he's fighting for redemption, but time and time again we see him treading on the dark side. Plus, the idea of living forever, not to shabby. And this is just me. I also think the PTB are jearking him around. I don't think they'll ever give him shanshu. Same with Spike. (If they didn't die in NFA.)

What killed Bangel for me? Once he lost his soul and went all evil, that killed it for me, no more lovin' for them. Nope, Buffy was young she needed a man she could get down with. Plus, Angel was just... Looking back now, I don't believe he ever trully loved her. And what gave hima happy was not them sleeping together it was the pure thrill, the pure joy of popping her cherry.

As for Chosen. Watched it all the way through when it aired, cried for a week too. I started crying before Spike stopped fighting. Hwn Buffy went down after getting run through with a sward, I was think, "Please let her die instead of Spike." lol After that I haven't been able to watch it past them sleeping in the basement. Then I have to stop. Even in fan vids. if they have him dying I can't watch it. It's too hard.

NFA. I still can't do it. SpikesKat I guess you're right. I don't want to let a good thing end. Though I LOVED Bonze with DB on it, so that's a plus.

Ooh, ooh, me too, me too!!! (Waves hand frantically while looking like she is going to pee). If you haven't seen NFA, then I guess it's worth watching, if only so you know to never do it again! Personally, I stop watching S5 ATS the moment Fred spews blood. If Wes and Fred can't be together, then there is simply no good thing left watching for.

Smile time - now that was a truly awesome episode (she says, inching towards the DVD player to re-watch). Not just for the puppety goodness either - the character developments (alright, the Fred/Wes part) would put it in my top ten Angel eps on its own.

Chosen - hmm. Mostly loved it. Spike's death however was totally under-played. Its like "Oh yeah, he burnt to a horrible crisp to save us, so I might actually shed one tiny glistening tear." Where's the uncontrollable sobbing? The catatonia? Clearly, her love is not like our love.

Finally, IWRY - I kinda love it, but I fully understand that if you don't really enjoy Spangel, then it would be kinda dull/vomit-inducing. However, never will understand how he goes from "if I'm not strong enough to save her, then she'll die", to "toodles then, go live a life away from me so I can REALLY do diddley-squat to save you". Possibly my favourite type of fic is any one where Spike finds out about all this and kicks Angel's ass (if anyone knows of any such fic, please email me/post them).

I'm down with episode discussions.  That would be cool.

When I first watched "Chosen," the series had already ended, but I had no idea that Spike would die.  At that point, I knew that he was going to be on AtS, but I didn't know any specifics as the new AtS season hadn't started.  I cried like a freaking baby before Buffy even got those three little words out, and when they clapsed hands and caught fire, I swear they may as well had reached through the TV screen with those flaming hands and tore my heart from my chest.  Then, when Spike crumbled to ash, I pounded my fists down and screamed, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"  My husband thought I was having a heart attack or something :-P  My only saving grace was that I knew he'd be coming back somehow.

IWRY is actually a very good episode, not because of the Bangle-y theme, but because of the non-Bangle-y theme :-)  I always thought that Angel loved himself and his redemption more than he loved Buffy, and turning his back on her when they could have actually been together--something that he swore he wanted--just showed how much he DIDN'T love her. 

That whole I'm leaving you for your own good is a load of cliched crap.  Tough love is reserved for parent/child relationships, not romantic relationships.  The only time sometime should leave a romantic partner is for their own good, not the other person's well being (e.g., a woman leaving her abusive husband).  Angel always made Buffy's decisions for her, kind of like Giles.  Giles was a father figure, not Angel.  If Angel wanted to make her decisions for her and bone her at the same time, then he had more issues than I care to think about :-P  Also, staying a vamp so that he can help her fight?  When the HELL did he ever come to help Buffy fight?  He was only interested in his own fight.

Angel thought that he knew better than Buffy, but the girl has proven umpteen times that she can take care of herself.  That doesn't mean that she can't welcome help (like with Spike), but she's fully capable of fighting alone.  Angel didn't even think about ways that he could help her.  He could have loved her, he could have held her hand when the fight got too rough, he could have lifted her up when she was down.  All things that Spike did.  That's what a real relationship is, not the candy-hearts, bubblegum love that Buffy and Angel shared.  IWRY is just evidence that Angel didn't love Buffy the way she needed.  So, yeah, I love that episode ;-)

Wesley dying in Fake Fred's arms: I think I actually cried more at that sceene than I did at the flaming hands of burning love.  At least in Chosen, there was the bittersweetness of Buffy no longer being the lone Slayer.  With Wesley and Illyria, the bittersweet was just a mirage.  Heart-freaking-breaking :-(

Argh! The one down side of Smile Time (yes, I am watching it) is the whole Angel/Nina thing. Does anybody actually care? At all? Still, the puppets are worth it.

Wesley & Illyria - best line between them EVER:  "Would you like me to lie to you now?"  SOB!!! :-(

Yeah, that whole death scene was heartbreaking. Multiple tissues.

I was spoiled for Spike going to AtS, but I still sobbed for Chosen. Every time I saw Spike dust, I sobbed. Reading it in a fic, I sobbed. Took a long time for it to not kill me. :)

But I so heart AtS.

Angel always made Buffy's decisions for her, kind of like Giles.

Sorry, this is kind of completely off-topic, but I just thought of it when I read IB's rant. :) I read a really interesting meta-essay on Angel a while ago, which pointed out that Angel didn't always make Buffy's decisions for her. Pretty much until he went evil, Angel continually tries to set boundaries for their relationship, and Buffy continually breaks them - and every time, Angel gives in. He let a sixteen-year-old girl set the course of their relationship, even though she was too naive to make the kinds of choices she was making. Angel knew better, but he let her push him into things, and she literally led them into hell. When he comes back, season 3 is about Angel learning to stand up to Buffy and make the choices in the relationship, until finally he breaks it off for good, against her wishes.

So, really, Angel's making choices for Buffy was motivated by the bad choices Buffy made earlier in their relationship. It doesn't mean that his judgments are any better than hers (and in fact, I think the fact that they could never settle on a sharing of power is a prime reason they shouldn't be together), but I think it adds more depth to the one-dimensional "Angel tries to control Buffy" argument.

Um, back on topic - I only watched NFA once... but that's because I borrowed the DVD from somebody, and then I had to give it back, and I've never had any other chance to see it. But I'd totally watch all of season 5 over and over.... which I can now, because I just bought the Angel DVDs (they were half-price at Amazon! Merry Christmas to me!). On a related note, now that my collection is complete, I'm all for episode discussions. :)

In regards to episode discussions, I have one thought/suggestion.  I'm not sure how to do this, but would we be able to have the episode listed a day or two before the discussion begins, to give everyone a chance to rewatch it?  I haven't watched any Buffy or Angel for over a year; been too busy reading fics!

" IWRU seemed like the true end for the Bangel relationship, because it was the ultimate revelation, to the viewers at least, that Angel wanted to be the hero more than he wanted to help Buffy. "

This episode shows not only the Angel Wants To Be Super Strong Vamp Hero but, IMO, more important for Buffy is the ending scene. Buffy is still in denial about her Slayer Life - it clearly shows a Buffy that still yearns for the "normal life."

The Slayer is not meant to live "a normal life" and I don't believe that a man that is "normal" would not be a proper mate for her. Riley was a good test for this "normal life" scenario. And even though Buffy tells him that if she wanted a male with super powers she would be dating Spike, she does not really have confidence in his fighting powers. For sure, Buffy is also concerned with losing Riley and not just how skillful he is – but nor can Buffy be at 100% Slayer Mode is she is distracted by worry over mate in a major battle.

If any of the "normal life" relationship might succeed, I believe it would have to be with a man, or partner, that is not going to be her counterpart as warrior. Perhaps a really grand Watcher or person that works in the supernatural field but does not go into battle situations.

I still say Spike would have made her a perfect Soul Mate-Warrior Counterpart. I hated that whole "I have never opened up to anyone like I have to you" speech to Riley – This was clearly not true as the hospital scenes show and Riley’s trips to Vamp Blood Bites Dive. Those lines had a sense of falseness about them - I suppose the writers were preparing for the Vamp Bites episode and his exit from Sunnydale.

We should open the Episode to watch to suggestions and maybe have a small discussion on some ideas to discuss - then go into our discussion - Maybe we could do one buffy and the following week one Angel.  We also need to give at least three days for people to watch.

Interesting points, E.  When I think about it...he was just very accepting of not being in control in general.  Whistler makes him an offer, he takes.  Giles tells him there's a prophecy where Buffy dies, and he accepts it (a few years later, he doesn't take such heed to prophecies).  Buffy says "let's have sex," more or less, and he resists, but then gives in.  Actually, he breaks up with Buffy finally cause Joyce tells him to, even if it was for the best in the end.

Angel's like this guy I know who doesn't trust his own decision-making skills, so he practically begged for people to do it for him when he was younger. He's better now, older and with a supportive girl, but yeah......Angel pre-losing soul was a lot like that. I think between his long stay in Hell, and the Angelus debacle, that he began to see that he *had* to take control or there'd be another disaster. But he always struggled with taking it on for a team....it's hard for most anyone to be responsible for others in life or death. I think he's always going to prefer to work alone, even if he can't.

And the interesting thing is, Angel and Buffy are opposites in this. Buffy made all the decisions that led to Angel losing his soul, and then when she realized the terrible mistake she'd made, she relinquished a lot of her decision-making (at least in relationships) to other people. She let her friends have too much influence, she was fairly passive in letting the guys she was with take the lead. She says she's "making a choice" with Parker, but what she's doing is letting herself be manipulated. And then she's practically going crazy because Riley won't make a move to advance their relationship, but she won't take the first step. Even though she's interested in Ben, she waits for him to give her his number. Which means Spike ends up being the first guy where she actually takes the lead in advancing the relationship since Angel.... of course, that was after he pursued her for a solid year, but she started the sex! lol

The one thing that I could never accept from the Buffy-Angel relationship is the age factor - No Adult male should engage in a relationship with such a young woman - An especially Angel, who is fully aware of her age.  It has been proposed in other discussions that Buffy being The Slayer acts against the accepted norms of Older Male & Under age Female - but that never works for me.  Same goes for works that have Spike engaged with Buffy before he 18th. birthday - I can accept that once the might be moved to action by intense passion, but I am not comfortable with a sexual relationship between either vampire before her 18th birthday. 

Angel was the adult and should have been the responsible party in their relationship - and as the responsible adult male, he should never had allowed any physical contact period -

I always have to remind myself that the stories and series did not happen in a real life situation and that the Real World Norms don't always apply, still the reason it was such a powerful series was because it reflected the viewers real world.   it all gets complicated, especially since the series and all the characters make superb mythic and psychological symbols.

I can't watch Spike die.

Spike doesn't die sweetheart, just gets a cut on his face. In some ways it's a positive ending with them standing together as a group preparing to fight together as a united team.

Hmm, it's wierd, but I never felt that way about Spike's actions. To me, Buffy was too young for Angel because of their different mental ages - she was still kind of innocent and childish at the time, while he ACTED like he'd had a bicentennial. Also, he was first attracted to her at the age of 15, while she was sucking on a lollipop and gossiping to her girlfriends. That's creepy to me. Buffy and Spike, however, act like they are exactly the same age in s4, so I didn't have a problem with it. However, this may be due to where I'm from - in the UK it's legal to have sex at 16, so engaging in a sexual relationship shortly before your 18th birthday is actually pretty normal. Also, by that age, she struck me as a reasonably independent young woman, so his age mattered less.

The age factor never really bothered me. As some people say age ain't nothing but a number. Now if Angel had taken advantage of her then that would have been a problem. Each society and each culture veiws when a girl becomes a women differently. I know here in PA the legal age for marrige is 16, and if a girl wants to marry younger than that then she has to have a parent sign for concent. Even if the husband is older than her.

Angel really seemed like the older, mysterious man and he played that up a lot IMHO. He didn't talk about himself, he wasn't in touch with modern music or pop culture, he didn't seem to have any hobbies or interests beyond us seeing him with the occasional book, and he seemed to be a little patronising toward Buffy like an adult with an 'adorable' child. Buffy, 16, felt like an adult from being the Slayer but I thought she was very much a girl.

Then, Spike came onto the scene in Season Four. He was sometimes sulky and irritated and snarky and he watched TV and ate food and offered his opinion and feelings on everything. It reminded me of teen angst and rants and rebellious stages. He and Buffy were competitive in an immature way that made them seem much closer in age. Season Five had Buffy a lot more grown-up and let Spike be so, too, though he could still be awkward and a little nervous and defensive and acted a lot like a guy with a crush rather than a decades-old vampire with lots of experience smoothly trying to woo some girl.

Angel tried a lot less to be a person to me and was more an ideal, an adult watching the children. Spike seemed a lot more 'human' in a way and was a lot more involved in everything to do with living. JackofSpikes wrote a fantastic story where Buffy and Spike from Season Six go to early Season Two. I loved how younger Buffy and Spike were so different from the older versions but both versions were still in character. Older Spike even mentions how immature and annoying he used to be and how that was perfect for the younger, giggly girl-Buffy and thinks how he preferred the woman he fell in love with. 

I'll just add note that everyone reading this post should take a look at "Paradox" by JackofSpikes if they're looking for a great, long fic.

Izzy I'm sending you a big ol' kiss. I started reading that fic but forgot the name so I lost track of it. THANK YOU!!!! And I agree with everything you said.

I dunno--acting all quiet and mysterious doesn't equate to "older" to me.  Angel was turned in his...mid twenties, right?  And Liam was not the king of maturity.  Angel was not attracted to Buffy because of her age or her maturity (or lack thereof, as it may be), but to her purity, and the fact that she exemplified champion and redemption by default.  Though he never really took action for about a hundred years, he did want to be redeemed by that point, and he saw that in her.  He wants to belong, but knows that he doesn't, so enforces that distance that's already there by remaining all, well, mysterious.  Also, he does try to keep his distance from Buffy, but she just kept on pushing it.  On top of that, they kept ending up in these life or death situations.  Oh, and from the time period he's from, dating a 16 year old was probably perfectly normal.  And really, she was seventeen when they finally did "it." Angel doesn't find his niche really until he's away from the Scoobies, and grows with the Angel gang, who were all (Wes, Cordelia and Gunn) immature in some form or fashion.

And yes, Spike is immature a lot of the time.  But I think that's only because one becomes affected by the people that surround them.  And who was surrounding Spike?  Buffy, Xander, Dawn, so that's "immaturity" times three for him.  Even Giles found himself slipping to their level one time or another.  Angel is another person who brings out Spike's immaturity.  I could buy his relationship with Buffy if she was seventeen with no problem. 

And to be honest, well, the times, they have a-changed (once again), and a sixteen or seventeen year old having sex is definitely not outlandish.  In fact, I'm sure the numbers are actually lower than that, but I don't wanna freak anybody out.  Not saying I agree, cause I really don't, but it's reality, and if someone's sexually active, well, does it really matter if their partner of choice at the time is their age or older?  They're still going to be doing it with somebody.  May as well be a somebody more likely to use a condom (cause most teens are idiots--whether it's 100% their fault or not is debatable), and knows what they're doing.

Exactly, Scarlet.

When I watched Season 2 again not too long ago, I was shocked (in that I hadn't remembered) how much Buffy and Angel weren't a couple until it got close to January. It took both of them a long time to act on their feelings for more than one night at a time. She's the first girl, let alone person, that Angel's interacted with on a close to friendly basis since he got his soul, and I think that even though he's old, he was looking to the human to guide him through this *human* relationship......She has to know how to better than him, right, since she's the one with the humanity experience......except that she's so so young, and he keeps forgetting that when he sees her large and in charge as a Slayer. Buffy wasn't old enough to be his compass, and Angel wasn't confident enough to act on his own. They both learned the hard way with the release of the curse.

Was it technically okay that they had sex by CA law? Nope. But were they emotionally pretty close in maturity? Yup. And neither of them were ready to be in love with anybody, not just each other.

CM

For Sure times have changed - and I am from an older generation when a young woman of Buffy's age and an older male of mid or late twenties having a relationship would be considered highly inappropriate - at least it was in my social circle.  And my main objection aside from any age issue from the Angel-Buffy relationship was how very often she made some very poor life choices - If nothing else, IMO, her treatment and actions with Faith in the Slayer Blood Cure stabbing was enough for me to find their relationship as extremely harmful to Buffy. 

But for Angel, the time he's from, it wouldn't have been inappropriate.  And her treatment of Faith, well, that was her own choice.  Buffy had free will, and a capable mind.  I'm sure that if that had been Giles or her mom, she would've done the exact same thing.

Yeah, that part is just Buffy's character - she's willing to go to extreme measures for ANYONE she loves. And by that time, she felt Faith deserved the fate of dying to cure Angel.

Also, that wasn't just the relationship talking. Faith had gone from her ally to her enemy at the worst possible time. She threatened everything - not just Angel's life. This was more of a "I stop evil no matter what" moment for me - she herself says using her that way is "kind of perfect", or something like that. In the heat of battle, it seems to be more about anger and the fight than about saving Angel's life.

BTW, the age difference is actually more normal the further back you go, I think. My grandmother met her husband of 50+ years when she was 15 and he was 22, so not so far off the Angel/Buffy thing, and weirder than the Spike/Buffy thing. It's unusual, that's for sure, but I don't think that makes it wrong in itself. Again, I come back to the importance of mental age over chronological age. Nowadays we have this big thing about pedophilia, which is good in general, but can make us go a little OTT about actual working relationships. I don't think Spike ever acted innapropriately due to the age difference, while Angel did seem to baby her.

What's amazing is that all of us feel weirder about that age thing than we do about the "having sex witha re-animated corpse" thing. Hmm.

What's amazing is that all of us feel weirder about that age thing than we do about the "having sex witha re-animated corpse" thing.

*snort* We're all just a bunch of closet necrophiliacs....

So, I dvr'd NFA when it aired on TNT a few weeks ago, and then I got busy with holiday stuff, and then this thread popped up, and I had decided to not watch it.  But then I watched it anyway, because I had to.  I wanted to see how it ends. 

I like it more than Chosen.  It tied things together, and it was wickedly well-written.  What I loved the most about NFA is that at the end of the episode, I felt better about Angel than I did at the beginning.  I found myself thinking that this is a good person to look up to, not only because he made the hard choices, but because he fought even when he knew he wasn't going to win.  He even inspired the rest of them to go on the same end-game. 

The interesting thing, when contrasting the two series enders, is the arguments the two eps offer.  When Buffy's talking to Angel about being cookie dough, she says something about after the next thing and the next thing...maybe she'll figure out who she's supposed to be.  Ironically, for Buffy in Chosen it is not about the mission--defeating the first or activating the potentials--but just surviving.  I think she wanted that moment of Dawn asking, "Yeah, Buffy, what are we gonna do?" more than anything.

Whereas NFA says, "Fuck that."  I think Angel and co. have grown to realize they don't want to die by any more inches.  It's not about surviving to fight another day.  In the end, it's not even about why they came to be in that position in the first place--not that Angel was cursed with a soul, that there was a Shanshu prophecy, that the PTB wanted him to be a champion.  At the core of the conspiracy to destroy the Black Thorn circle, it was, as Angel said, about making Fred's death not meaningless.  I think he was making that argument for everything they've done--all the sacrifices--in the face of learning just how small they seem to the evil ones in power.

Long story short, I think I like NFA more than Chosen for the simple fact that Angel's plan works out.  That always bugged me about Chosen--that Buffy's big plan doesn't really do anything to destroy the First.

I agree wholeheartedly, Lindsay.  Also, there wasn't any terribly visible plotholes in NFA, and I love it for that in and of itself.  I bought it all, and I loved it.  There cut to black at the end didn't bother me, and I loved the ending.  No divided loyalties...it was excellent.

What's amazing is that all of us feel weirder about that age thing than we do about the "having sex witha re-animated corpse" thing.

*snort* We're all just a bunch of closet necrophiliacs....

ROFL, well neither bothers me. But I'm just like that.

I think that NFA will always be one of those questions of individual POV - my former board had such heated discussions about ending tactics of Angel's Battle Plan.  I have always been on the side of "WTF." - how was it good tactics to sacrifice your team for such a temporary solution.  I frankly think that Angel had lost his will to continue his personal struggles and simply wanted a out, but an out with a big heroric/sacrificial ending. 

NFA we should remember, was and ending to a season that had been created for a continuation in Season 6.  I am really glad that  season 6 will be given to us in comic book format and that we will have the consequences from NFA explored.