Now that I've complete one fic, I'm doing research for another.  I was watching S4, Harsh Light of Day and got the feeling of deja vu.  It dawned on me that the scenes were familiar because it's very similar to S7, Chosen.

I'm sure I'm not the first person to notice this and if it's been brought up here before, I'm sorry.

Spike puts an amulet on, thinking it's the gem of amara.  Soon after they cut to Giles' apartment and there is breaking news on TV with an aerial view of the hole in the highway that Spike created with his tunneling. 

In S7, he puts the amulet on and it does it's thing.  Later we see Buffy on the bus, looking at the cave in of Sunnydale.  They cut to an aerial scene of it. 

I made a post in my LJ with screencaps of both episodes side by side here:  http://dawnofme.livejournal.com/26743.html , but I figure more people were on here than there.

It's kind of eerie when you see the pictures side by side.  Do you think this was planned, or just unoriginal writing or something else? 

Yeah, this was discussed somewhere before (on which thread?  I have no idea).  Um, yeah, the two eppies are totally inverse for Spike--one's used for good, the other evil, one makes him impervious, the other is volatile, etc.  I personally think it was done purposely, but I don't think Joss realized it when he made "Harsh Light of Day," but found the irony for it later when writing "Chosen."  He was probably all "instead of a little hole in Sunnydale, and taking out the 'Welcome' sign, let's have Spike, the slayer of Slayers, and initial one dimensional villain, be the hero, saving the slayers, and making a crater out of the town!  How's that for vandalism?  In yo' face, naysayers!"

Okay, not exactly like that...but you get the picture :P

Yeah, I remember that discussion, although I couldn't find it in the forum threads. One other inversion I remember is that Buffy takes the gem from Spike and gives it to Angel, and Buffy takes the amulet from Angel and gives it to Spike. I think there was other stuff, really weirdly detailed things, but I don't remember what they were.

I agree Scarlet.  I think Joss got down to S7 and said How do we tie this all up and the writers looked back and said, gee we had Spike collapse a big hole in Sunnydale before, let's use that.  If that's not what happened and Joss planned it all from S4, then he's a big fat liar with all his we didn't know what to do with Spike and he was just an accident and we only kept him around because the fans liked him.  Which I never believed.

I'm the one who's made a big deal of the way The Chosen inverts Harsh Light of Day.  I agree that it was probably the case that Joss just made use of the details he happened to have in that episode.  But there's at least part of me that thinks Joss is totally lying about the "Spike was just an accident stuff".  Cause there's a lot of stuff in season 4 that doesn't look accidental at all. 

That was me above!

I have read in other discussions that Joss whedon had his ending for Spike planned from as early at OMWF - that episode is the first mention of "The Spark" that Spike will finally seek and win and also sets up the tragic relationship between between Spike and Buffy and her devasted emotional state after her resurrection - It also gives clues to the people that eventually die or will leave Buffy in the song montage, Tara, Giles, and Spike.

I could believe Joss started planning Spike's ending in season six, since he does tend to plot things out pretty far ahead (leaving clues to Buffy's death two full seasons before it happens, for example, or the clues to Dawn's arrival), but I really don't think he had all those plans for Spike back in season four. He feels very directionless in season four, like they decided to keep Spike around, did the first few episodes establishing the chip, and then said, "Okay, now what?" It wasn't until they landed on "Spike's in love with Buffy" that the character really made sense again.

And if Joss did have those plans all along, it's kind of a shame he kept them a secret, considering JM was so frustrated by the direction of his character in season four that he almost got fired for mouthing off. If he'd known where Spike was going, he probably would've kept his trap shut. :) (Oh, who am I kidding? That man never keeps his trap shut.)

season 5 for a Spike ending departure seems likely, I am only repeating what I read at another site - one thing that we can connect as a foreshadow was all that "this love is not real" from Buffy's perspective - and it makes a wonderful contrast to everything that Spike really did have in his nature to experience.

One other thing--the first "gem" Spike picks up in that gave is a gigantic, Liz Taylor necklace, and he's holding his hands out, attempting to feel the power in a position very similar to the one when he's wearing the necklace in s7. Also, Angel obtains the necklace which ends up with Spike, and Spike obtains the ring which ends up with Angel.  Spike is destroyed by his gem/necklace for the greater good, and Angel destroys the gem to...um, I guess preserve the greater good in the sense he felt unworthy to be in the sun just yet cause he hadn't earned it?  Whatever, I'm sure it's all obvious to you guys :P

Damn, everytime I read a thread on the forum, I'm like, "Just gonna read other people's comments, not gonna contribute 'cause I'll get thinking, and that way leads to badness."  Then you guys say something so friggin' insightful I can't resist but to jump into the frey :-P

The whole inversion thing is very intriguing.  The Spike stuff definitely makes sense, with the Liz Taylor jewelry and the hands (very observy, Scarlet), and the ring going to Angel and the amulet going to Spike, both taken from one and given to the other by Buffy.  The sun also plays a part.  Angel went into the sunlight with the gem of Amarra, and Spike is destroyed by the sunlight in Chosen.

Now, I give you my two cents: Spike tells Buffy that he loves her, she tells him that he doesn’t love her, doesn’t know what love is.  She denies his love for her.  When Buffy (finally) tells Spike that she loves him, he says, “No, you don’t, but thanks for saying it.”  In other words, he denies it.  Whether he believed her or not is up for (long, drawn-out, seemingly endless) debate, but I find the fact that he tells her that she doesn’t love him intriguing.  It’s the same response that Buffy gave him so many times.  Was Spike joking with Buffy?  Or, perhaps, Joss was joking with us, one last funny before the screen went black.  Whatever the case, Spike’s denial is ironic as hell, and I can’t BELIEVE that I never looked at it that way before :-P

If you go the link in my orginal post, I have photos side by side from both seasons that really highlight the whole thing.  I don't think I can post them here?

I'm rather new to the fandom so all this "stuff" is new to me.  Very interesting.

Oh--I *so* didn't notice that IB!  I feel like such a tard now.  "No you don't" so deserves to be in the list of repeats that we have.  "Freak show" and "no you don't love me."  Very intriguing.

Added--

Angelus said "to kill this girl, you have to love her."  Well, Spike loved her, and it killed him.  Fun, huh?

"Was Spike joking with Buffy?  Or, perhaps, Joss was joking with us, one last funny before the screen went black.  Whatever the case, Spike’s denial is ironic as hell, and I can’t BELIEVE that I never looked at it that way before"

James Marsters ending scene with Buffy and his "no you don't" phrase is one of the most heart breaking things for me in the entire series. these along with the scene where Buffy's tell him that his love is true for him,  coupled with cassie/cassandra foreshadow are superb story telling in my opinion.  The tragic connections and symbolism are  like superb greek tragic drama. 

Poor Buffy and Poor Spike, all her earlier denial are turned right back on her at their ending.  I just did a new piece from this Chosen scene which is also influenced from some poetry of Pablo Neruda.  I will post them at my Flickr site if anyone cares to check them out.

I plan on doing a set of Buffy-Spike Poetry Valentines this year - if anyone would like to join me, just let me know.

Here are the links for images:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2176352172&size=o

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2175559291&size=o

I never saw it as a joke, either by Spike or as an "in-joke" from Joss. It is definitely ironic, and as nmcil said, tragic, but I think it's far too serious a situation for it to be a joke. Even Spike knows better than to mock Buffy about something like that when he knows he's dying, and she's definitely not laughing. And for that matter, neither are we, if it was meant as a joke from Joss.

I've never heard any commentary from writers or actors that says anything other than that Spike was brought on as comic relief in season 4 and that his role evolved from there.

But there's a big chunk of me that really doesn't believe it.  Their presentation of Spike in season 4 is anything but directionless, at least in retrospect.  The parallels between Harsh Light of Day and The Chosen have already been discussed.  But that's not the only stuff that happens:

* Spike's escape from the Initiative is deliberately presented as heroic.  Not something you do for the buffoon.  And it foreshadows his big heroic arc from there to the end of the series.

*  We next see Spike in Pangs, trying to come into the gang.  This is the same episode in which Angel shows up and resolutely stays out of sight, outside.  Then we have I Will Remember You where Angel refuses life in the light with Buffy, followed by Something Blue where Spike totally embraces it (under the spell).  All of this is more stuff that gets inverted, just the way the Chosen inverts the Harsh Light of Day.  Also, notice the contrast between Harsh Light of Day (Spike wants to go into the light) and In the Dark (Angel refuses the light).  This point is due to Macha over at Tea at the Ford.

* There are contrasts between Riley and Spike.  Riley is the Insider who needs to learn how to think for himself.  Spike is the Outsider who needs to learn how to play well with others.  (Think of the title "The I in Team" as indicative of the way this is a big theme for the season).  That symmetry is frequently pointed to by juxtaposition of scenes dealing with Riley's insider problems with scenes dealing with Spike's outsider problems. 

All of these points suggest that there's a plan from the word go to move Spike "in".  They all foreshadow his big arc.  Why set up all that structure if there's no big design?

* Giles suggests that Spike's chipping might be an opportunity for his life to be about something more.  Spike ignores it, except that it exactly forecasts what ends up happening.

* In Restless we get Spike striking a bunch of villainous poses, only to be concluded by the Christ on the Cross pose.

* SB and all the other UST between Buffy and Spike foreshadows what's going to happen between them.  That SB kickstarts the "Doomed" relationship between Buffy/Riley doesn't seem accidental either.  She's running away from the thing that's eventually going to happen anyway.

At some point I'll write a detailed meta on all of this.  But it was either planned, or just uncanny.  Because the sequence of scenes and episodes and a whole myriad of details are all set up exactly the way one would set them up if one were planning on telling the long-term story about Spike that, in fact, got told. 

But, yeah, they all say it wasn't planned.  It baffles me every time I watch season 4.  There should be more elements that don't fit the subsequent trajectory if they really had something else in mind for the character when they brought him back.

 * In Restless we get Spike striking a bunch of villainous poses, only to be concluded by the Christ on the Cross pose.

All excellent points, Maggie.  But with this one, keep in mind that his "villainous poses" were all only for show for the spectators--it wasn't really Spike.  That is the core of the Spike character, and I also cannot believe that Spike was purely...comic relief.  They brought him back in s3 for one ep to see how he fits in with the cast.  His whole point of existence, as Joss has said, was to be in contrast to Angel, which is why Joss had him become a platinum blonde.  "Lover's Walk" was all about this soulless vampire's grief, and desperately wanting the love of his unlife back, and interacting with humans without killing them (excluding magic shop lady), and in Joyce's case, not bothering to harm him at all.  Spike was always the ex-factor, and I think, in addition to his extreme capabilities to love, made Joss pause. I don't think it was "not knowing what to do with Spike" so much as when to do it.

And Indiana escape music for his escape scene in the Initiative? Kick ass.

considering JM was so frustrated by the direction of his character in season four that he almost got fired for mouthing off

Ooh, when was this?  And what direction of Spike's was he frustrated at?

I think maybe they had a vague trajectory, but not a specific idea of Spike having a redemption arc. Like, for example:

All of these points suggest that there's a plan from the word go to move Spike "in".

That makes sense, because regardless of what they did with Spike, eventually he needed to be "in" if they wanted to keep him around. He couldn't stay the villain, otherwise there's the obvious question, "Why hasn't Buffy killed him yet?" He couldn't remain in his season 4 role, because it was too undefined - why is he there? He's not a good guy, he can't be a bad guy. What is he? 

So, ultimately, no matter what they did, Spike had to get at least somewhat into the group if they wanted to keep him on the show. That didn't necessarily mean he had to fall in love with Buffy, go seek a soul, and sacrifice himself to save the world. They could've gone in a lot of different directions once Spike was "inside."

SB and all the other UST between Buffy and Spike foreshadows what's going to happen between them.

I think this is more of a case of SB revealing the potential, and so they ran with it. It was obvious from the beginning that SMG and JM had fantastic chemistry together, but it was impossible. Spike was the villain, and they could never be together - especially since Spike appeared while they were in the middle of doing that very arc with another character! I would bet that this episode came about because somebody said, "Wouldn't it be awesome if Spike and Buffy got together?" and then they tried to come up with a way in which that was possible, given the restrictive framework of the current relationship. And once they saw the magic that is Spuffy, they worked out a way for it to happen naturally. :)

Edited to add: JM got frustrated when Spike was turned into comic relief. He thought he was coming on to be the new Cordelia - snarky, telling them all they're gonna die, etc. But then Anya ended up filling that role, and so Spike got dressed in silly clothes and became the butt of impotence jokes. I think it was actually the clothes that JM was complaining about at the time, but whatever it was, he was mouthing off, and Joss heard him and said something to the effect of, "You don't need to be here at all." James shut up after that. :)

Edited again because I found the interview:

"I did get worried when they put me in Xander’s clothes, but that was the only time I almost got fired from Buffy... I was in a Hawaiian shirt in the make-up trailer and I was mouthing off. 'I thought I was playing Spike. I didn’t know I was going to have to play Urkel.’ Joss caught wind of that and it was before he knew me very well. I’m not really a complainer on the set but he got mad. He was like, 'That ingrate, he’s fired.' But luckily that didn’t happen."

Spike's escape from the Initiative is deliberately presented as heroic.

I never really looked at it that way, but now that I think about it, yeah, it is kinda heroic with the fooling the guard into unlocking his cell, releasing another prisoner, escaping...and the Indiana Jones slide under the closing door ;-)  All of it is kinda hero-y, except the part where he throws the other prisoner to the lions in order to save his own hide :-P  But, hey, nobody's perfect.

she's definitely not laughing. And for that matter, neither are we, if it was meant as a joke from Joss.

Oh, I definitely don't think it's funny in a ha-ha way, but who knows what Joss's sense of humor could have been like at that point :-P

As for Spike's wardrobe, I know they made him wear the same pair of pants for quite a long while...James was so excited when he went to Angel for the clothes alone--several coats, and a multitude of crisp shirts, pants and boots!

The music in the background is pretty heroic, too.

on the "you're fired" comment - it's mentioned in a group convo on the Special Features disc that came with the seven seasons box set that Joss had a thing for yelling You're fired! at everybody.....and if he hadn't done it in a while, you probably *were* in trouble. It was a big joke among the group and the topic is really funny. He liked doing it to the newbies too to keep them on their toes. :P

"In Restless we get Spike striking a bunch of villainous poses, only to be concluded by the Christ on the Cross pose."

It happens that I watched this episode tonight and what is so interesting about Giles Dreamscape sequence is that these are his fears.  Are we being shown what does exist as all potential realities in spike?  Does Giles fear that all his Watcher Knowledge regarding Spike is wrong - Is Spike actually more than just the Vamp Demon, is he capable of taking on a human role?  Interesting also that Spike files higher than Giles while they are swinging - Is Olivia and the Baby carriage giles being afraid that Spike will run off with his daughter?  I just loved that part where Buffy said she wants that vampire.  and of course it is just after this part that the Spike part happens.   Maybe Giles hates and fears any connection that spike might have with his daughter/slayer but I love how he will still suggest to Spike that there might be a choice to serve a  higher purpose - which spike will eventually accept - and there is clearly many symbolic connections to Spike as a Christ/Sacrificial figure in Chosen.

* SB and all the other UST between Buffy and Spike foreshadows what's going to happen between them.  That SB kickstarts the "Doomed" relationship between Buffy/Riley doesn't seem accidental either.  She's running away from the thing that's eventually going to happen anyway.

Do I remember Riley having a line "Kinda Blue" in an episode or two just before SB happens?