BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

It's a matter of "trust"

Jan 09 2008 06:09 pm   #1pfeifferpack

I posted this on my LJ but thought it would be a good topic here too. 

I was thinking about the issue of trust for Buffy and have a few thoughts to share.

Trust first comes up with a young and idealistic Buffy in "Lie To Me" of Season 2. 
<i>Buffy says, "I'm talking about the people I trust. Who's Drusilla?"  Angel acts sheepish and Buffy catches that he's lied to her.  "And don't lie to me.  I'm tired of it."  Angel offers, "Some lies are necessary".....After Buffy insists she can take the truth Angel asks, "Do you love me?"  Her reply is, "I love you.  I don't know if I trust you."  Angel replies that maybe she shouldn't do either before walking off. </i>

Note that Buffy freely loves even though she does NOT trust.  The matter of trust has not yet become a foundation for her to allow herself to love at this point.

Contrast that scene to this from Seeing Red in S6:
<i>Spike is trying to force a confession of feelings from Buffy, "Because you love me."  She denies loving him and he accuses her of lying to herself.  Buffy is exasperated but has this telling bit of dialogue, "How many times....!  I have feelings for you, I do.  But it's not love.  I could never TRUST you enough for it to be love."  Spike goes on to say that trust is for old marrieds, great love is wild and passionate and dangerous.  It burns and consumes (hum....a hint of his being consumed and burning to ash in Chosen??).  She replies, "Until there's nothing left.  Love like that doesn't last."</i>

********side note*****damn but I just thought of another aspect where this might "foreshadow" the Spuffy story post Chosen, or at least the ME version!!!!************  But I digress *G*

Clearly Buffy has decided that trust is essential for her to permit herself to love by the time S6 has come around.  She says she does not trust Spike but what does she mean?

Obviously she DOES trust him in some very important ways.  Even after she had declined his invitation after Crush she took her mother and sister to him for protection from Glory.  She is trusting the care and safety of the two most important people in her life to him without hesitation.  She trusts him from that point forward when it comes to her family and watching her back in battle.

When he reveals to her in Smashed that the chip does not work on HER but does on others she takes him at his word (trust in his truthfulness).  She does not seek proof that he can't kill human but her.  She also does not protect herself from him trying to kill her.  She knows he won't (or possibly doesn't care but I think the former is more likely).  Again....lots of trust there.

So....what does she mean in Seeing Red.  He hasn't gotten physical in that bathroom yet so it isn't because he has attempted to force himself on her.  What trust does she lack to allow herself to love?

Well one thought would be that when Angel left he took her trust with him.  The whole abandonment issue is a hot button with her.  In truth that does factor in since after Angel she was also abandoned by Giles (the other man she  felt was a permanent pillar in her life an unconditional love).  Her friends had displayed traits that made her see their love as quite conditional and therefore she didn't trust that they would remain as her friends and surrogate family.  Later when tossed from her own home into a Sunnydale crawling with Bringers and Turok-Han's by these people she was proven correct BTW...even her own sister didn't seem to think about her safety, only her power and taking it from her.

I think it was more than that however....not just the leaving (because she has to know by now that she can't easily rid herself of Spike.....he's not one to leave). 

When Angel left Sunnydale a part of Buffy believed that even though he was no longer there he would always be THERE for her.  Angel would always take her side, have her back, look out for her, come when called...etc.  When she went to LA to confront Faith she discovered to her shock that this was not the case.  Feel how you will about that situation put yourself in Buffy's shoes for a moment.  When last seen Faith had tried to kill her, had hijacked her body and terrorized Buffy's mom not to mention slept with Riley.  Buffy had no insight into Faith seeking redemption, in fact had she known what Faith had done to Wes on arrival she would have been even more concerned.  Angel was supposed to take HER side, instead he protected and defended Faith and essentially told Buffy to get out of HIS town! 

We don't know what took place in S6 when she went to see Angel in the desert but judging by her reactions it wasn't Angel being supportive.  He hadn't shown up for any of her big battles against the Initiative or Glory either.   She had given up hope for a happily ever after as long as the curse held but had ALWAYS expected his undying devotion and support.  She found it was not a given.

Giles, her father figure, not only left her but berated her for not taking on more responsibility than simply keeping the entire world safe from demons *G*.  He felt SHE needed to deal with Willow's coming implosion (although his background as Ripper with magic should have made HIM the logical one for that job!).  She wasn't able to even stand up straight yet so soon from death and resurrection and he was wanting her to run and run as an adult with adult responsibilities.  He had betrayed her trust years before with the Cruciamentum but had regained much of it after.  He had sided with her about Angel even in face of his personal dislike and disapproval.  She had counted on him to be in her corner, her support system even when he disagreed.  He left her and left her reeling.

Riley was a small contributer as well.  He claimed to love her.  He was "in the fight" against evil and yet he left while Glory was on the loose.  True they had no idea what she was at that point but they DID know she had kicked Buffy's arse well and proper!  Her mom had surgery successfully but was still merely on the mend.  He even knew that Spike (evil, soulless vampire Spike) was on the scent with Buffy.  He didn't "have her back" either...instead he left her to deal with it all.

I think that was when she turned off trust piece by piece until when Giles left it was written in stone.  It wasn't only Spike she didn't trust but the concept that if someone loved her they would be at her side, have her back and not go away.  How much more so when the one proclaiming that sort of love had no soul....something she had been led to believe necessary for any true emotion of the positive sort?

She didn't trust him with her HEART even though she clearly trusted him with her life and the lives of those she cared about.  EVEN after the attempted rape she was trusting of him enough to take Dawn to him for protection from Willow.  No, she trusted him but she no longer trusted love or her vision of love.

I think his returning and returning with a soul began to erode the ice encasing her heart and the fire consuming him in the Hell  mouth finally burned the last of it away (unless you take the comics as canon in which case it isn't even the same Buffy IMHO!).  Her "I love you" was meant and surprised even herself because she was acknowledging who Spike was and his unique way of loving, his TRUSTWORTHINESS.  Perhaps she lost that trust again when he didn't contact her (after all it's always all about Buffy and it wouldn't occur to her that SHE could and should make the first move for a change! LOL).  This would explain knowing he was alive and not going to him.  Look what happened when she went to Angel after all.  She would be wrong but that would not be the first time.

I think too much about this sometimes *G*.


Kathleen
 

 

 

 

Jan 09 2008 06:24 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis

 Riley was a small contributer as well... He didn't "have her back" either...instead he left her to deal with it all.

Here's what I find interesting: Was it mentioned or not on Buffy, it most certainly was on Angel.  In s1 of Angel, when Buffy comes to town after Faith, she's bitter, and tells Angel about her relationship with Riley.  She tells him that it's "new, because I trust him."  Which, she really did.  She trusts him so much, that she didn't even suspect him, against better judgment, in being in cahoots with Professor Walsh.  But on that same token, she most certainly didn't love the guy.  There was no "passion, heat, desire," which causes him to seek out the vamp ho bags and for her to go on a patrolling spree night after night cause she's never satisfied.  She opened her heart to Riley, but wasn't in love with him all the while (the fake, corny crying we see in "Triangle?"  Come on, she wasn't really hurting there...), and shuts down with Spike who she (presumably) is in love with, but refuses to trust him with her heart, cause once her heart gets in the way, she loses the control, which is something I'm sure she's aware of.

ETA:  Oh, and Kathleen, there's a um...incredibly *dramatic* re-enactment of Buffy and Angel's reunion performed by Wes and Cordelia in s3.  I can find the eps name if you like :P

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 09 2008 06:37 pm   #3pfeifferpack

Oh yeah!  I remember the re-enactment scene...I died laughing.  They were explaining Bangel to Fred and Angel walked in at the end.  Notice Angel didn't have much to say about his reunion with Buffy either!

Great points about Riley!  YES all that eroded her trust too.  He went to Vamp ho's (and jeopardized all of them had he been turned) and he lied about the Initiative too.  All that factored in.  She did trust him until he "cheated" and left but didn't love him ITA.

Kathleen

Jan 09 2008 06:52 pm   #4Guest

That scene was freakin' hilarious! And yet it also showed perfectly why I hate Bangel. They're all full of dramatic gestures but they really get nothing done. Thay're supposed to be soulmates but you don't see either one of them looking for a solution that allows them to be together.

 

Jan 09 2008 06:54 pm   #5Guest

That was me

ladycat713

Jan 09 2008 07:02 pm   #6pfeifferpack

Not only don't they do anything to permit themselves from being together but Angel throws it all away when the chance is handed to him in IWRY.  I know Bangel shippers see it as him sacrificing for Buffy's good but if that was so why did he not show up for any of those battles he "needed" to be a strong vampire to help her with?  Not even on off camera phone call offer of help from the great poof.  Nope, his having that humanity thing reversed had everything to do with his self image and desire not with his love for Buffy and self sacrifice.  Any interest in Bangel by me died with that episode (not that I shipped them for a multitude of reasons).

Yup a funny and insightful scene.  The writers had to have shared an eye roll at Bangel to have put that lovely scene together.

Kathleen

Jan 09 2008 08:15 pm   #7nmcil

I've been watching Season 4 last several days - and you just knew that Riley was never going to be "Mr. Joe Normal-Life I Want" from the moment of their sparing and his line of - give me a week, etc.  (sorry for the paraphrase)

And that line of Buffy's to Riley (again, sorry for paraphrase) I have never opened up to anyone like I have with you.  But she apparently did not open up so much, cause Xander is the one that brings out the Angel All Happy Curse Clause.   I so wish I could ask SMG where she was playing that Buffy-Riley relationship from. 

TRUST & HEART - I don't think Buffy really ever recovered from Angel-Angelus - the wound was "heart Deep" then, as you so clearly show,  People just kept adding more and more to her fear of Trusting her heart and Love to people, and men in particular. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 10 2008 12:19 am   #8Scarlet Ibis

I think the Angel writers were just completely done with the whole Bangel scene.  That whole Wes/Cordelia re-encatment aside, there's also a scene where Angel's seeking guidance (even though the guy is a fake), and he's talking about Darla.  The guy tells him to "find some cute little blonde thing, use her up, then cast her aside" in order to get over and/or deal with his issues with Darla, and it was such a lovely "been there, done that" moment.  But alas...though I wasn't a strong Bangel fan, I don't think that was Angel's intention :P  But yeah, I pretty much chalk it up to it being a "Buffy?  Who cares?  Angel has real problems now" kind of thing. 

Also, I think they were basically saying that Bangel was so lame and corny, and then Angel's response to Cordy and Wes is "Yeah, I think you guys covered it."

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 10 2008 03:06 am   #9Spikez_tart

Good subject PF

From A2 - Sanctuary - Buffy and Angel are arguing about Buffy's right to beat the crap out of Faith.  Buffy decides to one up Angel:

BUFFY: I have someone in my life now. That I love. It's not what you and I had. It's very new. You know what makes it new? I trust him. I know him.

Strangely, I don't think Buffy ever tells Riley that she loves him or trusts him either for that matter.  Also, it's a little ambiguous:  "It's not what you and I had" and "That" I love - does she mean she loves the fact that she has someone new in her life or she loves Riley?  I think she loves the fact and not the man.

So, Buffy loves Angel but doesn't trust him; she doesn't love Riley and if she ever trusted him, she doesn't for long and she trusts Spike but doesn't love him?

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 11 2008 01:27 am   #10nmcil

As Clem so perfectly states "issues"

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 11 2008 01:44 am   #11nmcil

Here is one question that I wish someone who has read interviews or been to the conventions or writers conferences might have an answer for:

Why did the writers try to make the Buffy-Riley relationship take on such great importance as part of her life?  she tell riley repeatedly how utterly important he is to her, that he is everything to her and yet it always feels like she is not truthful, to him or herself. 

I treated myself to watch "The Yoko Factor: and after the big "revelations and Confrontations" scene he storms out of that room and states that she is going to the one person she can trust.

Are the writers going through all this "you are my Everything" just as a plot device to complete the ending of their relationship?  Their relationship and romantic scenes, at least for me, come across as total CORN and Sugar - must be huge products in IOWA. 

I loved his scenes as The Cowboy and the great "Death of a Salesman" foreshows with Adam and the Iniative story arc as well.

 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.