I was reading this essay over at Bloody Love Poetry and it symbolized everything I ever felt about how Angel and Spike are potrayed in canon.

http://www.bloodyawfulpoet.com/essays/whedonverse.html

Huh. I never thought to give Angel and Spike Myers-Briggs types. But when you reason it out like that, they do seem like total counterpoints. The essay didn't mention the E/I, but I think we can assume that Spike's pretty much an E and Angel's most definitely an I. Now it makes me want to figure out all the characters' MB types, lol.

Thanks ever for posting the link - excellent essay; clarity and effective examples.  Gives voice to what so many viewers felt and certainly what many of the current Buffyverse followers via FF are still concern with.  Much of the FF work is expanding into more fantasy, crossovers AU, literary transfers - but this inequality and ambiguity of morality and standards for application is still a major starting point for many writers.

I have been wanting to start some type of Buffyverse Fiction site - my first idea was doing a SAGA and SERIES site -  as so many sites are closing, perhaps an archive site for all the great analysis articles is more important.  

Would love to get some ideas -  

This was a great essay.  Thanks for sharing it.

~ Q

I agree with almost all of it.  Almost, because I don't think the whole "soulless" thing equates to a type of mental problem overall.  It seems to me that the type of vampire one becomes is dependent upon who "raises" them.  Harmony is an excellent example--she had no...formal training, and personality wise, remained the same.  Sure, she traded up on the food chain for a few years, but it was her new nature after all.

As for favoritism, it seems to me it's more of a fan and Scooby reaction, as opposed to both series over all.  They were much more judgemental, and yet more forgiving over in LA then they ever were in Sunnydale.  Also, Spike is presented as the better vampire (and Champion, in Angel's eyes) on Angel s5, and it is duly noted on many occasions.  Angel is mockingly called "the hero" by Spike, and Angel cannot refute his claim.  I also personally feel that when Angel signs away the Shanshu in blood, that he was admitting it was not meant for him anyway.  The name of the vampire with a soul is never mentioned, and in "Destiny" he questions this.  He acknowledges the extreme difference of being cursed or choosing to fight through hell for a soul.  I think in that moment, Angel accepted that he was not the better hero, and that he was not meant for the reward.  I find it admirable, however, knowing and accepting that, he still does not quit.

Spike was embraced by Angel's friends, and even Angel himself.  They try to bring him back from his incorporeal state, it is a full team effort to save him from the psychotic slayer, and he gets an abundance of cars from his good friend and grandsire Angel.  The prejudice that we see on Buffy is not seen on Angel, but perhaps this is because that the latter was the more "adult" show anyway.

It appears to me...The elect and the damned only exists in Sunnydale.  But then, they've always had a pretty black or white view of things.  Not to say they didn't make improvements...And it's funny to me that Cordelia, Sunnydale alum, was the one to be the most accepting of other's differences, or demoness, as the case may be

The prejudice that we see on Buffy is not seen on Angel, but perhaps this is because that the latter was the more "adult" show anyway.

I don't think it's because Angel the Series was more adult. Angel's friends never met Spike in person, they only knew him after he became good. The Scoobys, however, knew Spike since he was trying to kill them, so it surely would take them time to accept him. And they did by the end. Except perhaps Giles, whose anger toward Spike had more to do with The First's control over him.

I think if Angel's friends met Spike as Evil in season one, their reactions will be like Cordelia's.

Cordelia didn't have much of a reaction other than hearing about him being soulled, and mentioning his ridiculous hair.  She wasn't afraid or all "I'll kick your ass" like she was with Eve and Lindsey.

And despite Spike's little evil jaunt in S1 of AtS, the first thing he did upon seeing Cordelia is compliment her hair and ask if she'd lost weight - big brownie points in Cordy's world.

You're right, Scarlet, it did only exist in Sunnydale as a big deal. I've just been watching AtS again, and from the beginning, there are clear distinctions between agressive and non-aggressive demons. And they're cool with demons as long as they're not harmful to people. Wes comes straight from Council training and still knows the difference. Acceptance of the gray in life was asserted throughout. When Gunn's old crew got that asshole Gio and started killing demons all over town, Gunn was the only one wondering why they were looking for who was killing demons.....but it was his last test, last step into being a part of the team. He figures out by the end that it's about the mission and who's carrying it out, not *what* is carrying it out. And metaphorically, it was about casting off that last vestige of childhood and hanging on to the past - he's moved on from the old crew, much as it hurts to realize they're not on the same path anymore.

I always liked AtS better for asserting that it was about what you *did*, not what race or species you were. It was about actions and where your actions came from inside.

CM

I think part of the difference comes from the fact that Angel, the "hero," is a vampire, and thus a gray character himself. It'd be hard to draw a clear line when you're not sure which side of it to put your main character on.

I do think there is some validity to the idea of characters' history with Spike impacting how easily they accept him. Of the Scoobies, Anya and Tara rarely gave Spike a hard time or showed any fear of him - and I don't think it's a coincidence that neither of them were around when Spike was evil. Also, Dawn's acceptance of Spike could come from being younger, and thus removed from a lot of the high school horrors. (Even though she'd have implanted memories of season 2, Buffy probably would've done her best to avoid exposing Dawn to the slaying stuff, so Dawn might not have even met Spike back then.) On the other hand, Buffy, Giles, Xander, and Willow - the ones who were kidnapped, threatened, and attacked by Spike - have some obvious hurdles to get over before accepting him.

Gunn...yeah, he had the only lingering prejudice in the group, but he got over it.  His struggle was more to the fact of giving up his past and his friends, I think, though he did say all that crap about him and Angel not being friends, but he clearly doesn't mean it

Well, Giles wasn't kidnapped by Spike.  In fact, Spike saved his life--even if it was just to meet the end of the deal with Buffy.  As for Anya, well, when Spike and Buffy were "engaged," she acted just as disgusted seeing them kiss as Xander did, and it is my feeling that it was soley because Xander did.  Anya found Spike to be attractive, and not repulsive, and she had no personal history with him.  Furthermore, she herself was a demon for over a millenia, and dated vampires (one of which was Dracula, who was...not very good looking IMHO, on Buffy, which is the one she dated or whatever), so it can't be that that disgusts her.  She just hops on the bandwagon to side with Xander, which we eventually see alot of.  It's funny how easily she was cowed by Xander, considering she was a vengeance demon who definitely didn't take crap from men ever, which is why she became a demon in the first place.

Tara, well, we don't get to see much of her reactions towards Spike, and really, I can only count like three or four incidents.  Spike helps prove she's not a demon, which clearly distressed her, (I don't recall her reaction in "I Was Made to Love You," cause that scene is damn painful to watch, so I haven't, really...), and then she thinks a grief stricken Buffy is "nuts" for sleeping with him.  Now, clearly he's harmless, what with the chip and all, and Drusilla's gone, so no accomplices, so if Buffy, the Slayer, wants to have casual sex with him (even though it wasn't true at that point) with some hot, unable to hurt her vampire to get over the pain of losing her mother, why does she have to be nuts?  I'm not into being casual myself, but I wouldn't begrudge someone else of it--particularly so if they just lost the person they loved the most.  And the summer post s5, she sees all these changes with Spike, and doesn't call Buffy on her crap.  Spike just had a consistent stigma with those people, no matter what.  Even when he purposely gets a soul, it doesn't add to much with the Scoobies overall.

Well, Giles wasn't kidnapped by Spike.

No... but Spike stole one of his books. That's unforgivable. Also, I'm not too sure that he realized Spike saved his life - Spike made a good show of acting like it was for his own purposes when he was talking to Angel, and I doubt Giles saw much of the fight when Spike was backing up Buffy. And somehow, I don't think Buffy mentioned that when she came back after the summer.

Given how protective Giles is, of Buffy in particular but of Xander and Willow, too, I don't think Giles would've needed a personal threat to his life to hold a grudge against Spike. Spike tried to kill his Slayer. That's more than enough, I think.

As for Anya, well, when Spike and Buffy were "engaged," she acted just as disgusted seeing them kiss as Xander did, and it is my feeling that it was soley because Xander did.

Yeah, she definitely seemed to mimic the Scoobies' behavior - which is understandable, because she was newly human. She wanted to fit in, and she didn't know the proper way to behave, so she copied the behavior of the people whom she wanted to accept her. But she's not actively mean or rude to Spike (at least, not because he's a vampire... she's rude to pretty much everyone at some point), and she does occasionally take his side against Xander. "Forever," for example, when she points out to Xander that Spike didn't leave a card with the flowers for Joyce. And she clearly liked him enough to have sex with him, so I don't think she had any personal issues with him....

Spike helps prove she's not a demon, which clearly distressed her

I think it was more the situation in general that was distressing to her. Other than "He hit my nose!" which... he did, she doesn't really react to Spike.

so if Buffy, the Slayer, wants to have casual sex with him (even though it wasn't true at that point) with some hot, unable to hurt her vampire to get over the pain of losing her mother, why does she have to be nuts?

Well... he did just chain her up and threaten to let Drusilla kill her... Sure, Drusilla's gone, but as plenty of people have pointed out, Spike could still do damage without physically hurting Buffy himself - he just doesn't ever seem to think of it. But he pretty much proved he was crazy in "Crush," so for Buffy to start sleeping with him does seem a little nuts.

And the summer post s5, she sees all these changes with Spike, and doesn't call Buffy on her crap.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. She does see the changes in Spike, which is why she tells Buffy it's okay if she loves him. She doesn't really know what Buffy's "crap" is - she only knows Buffy's side of the story, which is "why do I let him do those things to me?" Doesn't quite give an accurate impression of what their relationship is like, so I'm not sure what Tara's expected to do.

Even when he purposely gets a soul, it doesn't add to much with the Scoobies overall.

I think it makes a huge difference with Xander. I don't think he would ever have let Spike live with him if it weren't for the soul. And it obviously makes a difference to Buffy. I think Willow and Anya's objections to Spike in s7 have more to do with what they see as unfair treatment (Spike gets it easier than they did for killing people) than anything else. Neither of them seemed bothered by Spike before the soul - when Willow found out Spike and Buffy had been sleeping together, her biggest concern is that she was the last to know. And Anya, as previously established, had no problem sleeping with soulless Spike. So, getting the soul doesn't really add anything because they already accepted him. It's really only Dawn and Giles who ought to have acknowledged the soul and didn't.

Xander took awhile to come around though (but I admit he does in fact come around--moreso than Dawn which was surprising).  I remember his "what if he soulfully tries to rape you" comment towards the beginning of s7.  And as for Anya and Willow s7, well, Willow was pretty mellow, and didn't have much of a problem with Spike ever, so I won't delve into that.  But Anya was...I think she was just bitter that Buffy tried to kill her and not Spike, but then again, Spike didn't have free will and she did. 

And yes, stealing books is a serious offense   Shame on that naughty Spike.

And you're right--Tara, unfortunately, didn't know the full story, so I can't really blame her for shaking some kind of sense into Buffy for her true behavior when she didn't know it, so, my bad.

As for the whole Buffybot thing and her friends thinking it was really her, and yeah, Spike did tie her up a few weeks before, well, he's still someone she knows, and in that sense, better than a stranger.  Or maybe not.  I dunno, I think the bottom line on that one is that Buffy can take care of herself, and this is post "he didn't leave flowers" (which was done by Willow and not Anya, btw) moment, which was something that was clearly sincere.  We, or they, in this case, know that Spike is capable of love, if Drusilla is any indication (which I think it is), and that he can feel for humans beings genuinely, but has the unfortunate handicap of expressing his love in not so good ways cause he is in fact a vampire.  I don't think it should have been made as big a deal as it was made out to be, is all.  Kinda small on the scale, since Glory was tipping it towards the gates of hell literally. 

Gunn also had a hard time accepting Angel, and unlike Xander and Giles who did not claim to be friends with Spike, Angel was supposed to be Gunn's friend.  But then Gunn came around and so did Xander when it came to Spike.  Giles' reasons for betraying Buffy in season seven have more to do with The First's threats to use Spike than him having personal dislike of him, Buffy's "obsession" with Spike worried Giles, he thought she won't make the right choice if Spike got controlled by The First again, like she had threatened to kill anyone who tries to kill Dawn in season five even if it was for the greater good.

If The First was never able to control Spike at all, I think all of the Scoobies would have came to like him, except Dawn, who just needed Spike to make an attempt to talk to her.

It's cute in a way how among all the Scoobies it was Xander who came to accept Spike even with The First controlling him. I think Selfless and Spike living with Xander helped make Xander understand and accept Spike more.

I really think if Spike came to Sunnydale as a souled vampire who saved the world, the Scoobies would consider him a friend in a heartbeat. They sort of had no problems with ex-demon Anya, except for Willow who was the only one who had an encounter with Evil Anya.

"Giles' reasons for betraying Buffy in season seven have more to do with The First's threats to use Spike than him having personal dislike of him, Buffy's "obsession" with Spike worried Giles, he thought she won't make the right choice if Spike got controlled by The First again, like she had threatened to kill anyone who tries to kill Dawn in season five even if it was for the greater"

Giles also is feeling very much like her would be father or guardian at this time - his "I wanted more for you" (paraphrase) is a father's speech - plus I believe that he is still influenced by Angel/Angelus incident.  Angel/Angelus remained a huge influence for all of them throughout the series.  The double standards and selective morality is, IMO, not just prejudice, but directly connected back to Buffy & Angel.  There is no question that Buffy's choices with her other Vampire Love had the worst possible consequences.   I think that it is important to remember that Giles did first try to get information about Spike's trigger with the magic golden larva (get metaphor again with self-creation and transformation).  It is only after, by Spike's keeping back vital information, that he goes along with Wood's plans for vegence and murder.  Not excusing his choices but from the perspective of how a general would act and having to make the hard decisions - they would have be a logical action from his pov.   Giles, like all our major characters, has a hidden face and fine capacity for meanness plus selective morality.