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Least Favorite Spuffy moment
What was your least favorite Spuffy moment in the entire series?
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."
-Dag Hammersjold
-Dag Hammersjold
Buffy telling Spike he is beneath her and him breaking down... With his denial of how she feels in the end being a close second! And then again there's the scene in the alley from Dead things... Actually more than a few I really didn't like!!
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
yep have got to say the alley scene where she beat him into a bloody messy pulp
Jan 13 2008 09:17 pm #4goldenusagi
I'm gonna have to go with the bathroom scene. Hmm, or Spike dying. I really didn't like Spike dying (even though he comes back.)
But yeah, the bathroom scene.
But yeah, the bathroom scene.
Jan 13 2008 09:19 pm #5TammyDevil666
Sadly, there are more scenes that I hate over ones I like. A few that come to mind are of course the bathroom scene, the alley scene in Dead Things, the scene when she says he's beneath her, the one where she has him disinvited from her house, I hate the look on his face when she closes the door. I'm sure there's more, but just to name a few.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
There are only two scenes in the entire Slayerverse that I cannot watch: the alley scene in "Dead Things" and the bathroom scene in "Seeing Red."
"Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Jan 13 2008 10:31 pm #7goldenusagi
Hmm, the disinvited one didn't bother me so much, even though it was a complete overreaction on her part. Mainly, because we get that great moment when he's invited back in. 
Jan 13 2008 11:28 pm #8Spikez_tart
Other than those mentioned, the scene in the cave where Spike reaches out to touch Dawn's hair then snatches his hand back before she can see him. It totally points up how very alone Spike is.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I love hearing Joss Whedon talk about his work, especially how he laughs at how much horrible stuff he puts his characters through to show them growing and changing and being who they are. I liked a lot of scenes that were painful for Spike not because I want to see Spike hurt but because it shows how much feeling he has and what it means to him and how strong or vulnerable he is to work through it.
Season Six is the hardest for me to watch. It felt like the writers were turning Spike into what they needed for the Buffy character to hate herself and get dragged down instead of keeping him in character. He was shown as selfish and callous and dark, totally disconnected from acting human, despite how wonderful he was early in Season Six before they slept together or even the immature version struggling with his feelings in Season Five and crying and watching Passions. In "Dead Things" and "Seeing Red" it was raw and intense and awful and showed anguish and feeling and worry and concern, and in the bathroom scene we've had the build-up to understand his feelings, so I can understand it and think about what Spike's going through. When he's just so callously selfish and careless of what Buffy's feeling that I really hate it. It's unfair to his character and cheapens what he feels, and so few scenes were shown where he was hurt or vulnerable, so he didn't have that motivation to lash out as if in defense. It was like he was the monster Buffy accused him of being, without real feeling. It was those scenes that I really hated. I still don't find that relationship believable after Spike kicks Buffy out when she's invisible, saying "If I can't have all of you..."
Spike loved Buffy and the writers seemed to forget that or twisted it for the Spuffy scenes that I hated.
Season Six is the hardest for me to watch. It felt like the writers were turning Spike into what they needed for the Buffy character to hate herself and get dragged down instead of keeping him in character. He was shown as selfish and callous and dark, totally disconnected from acting human, despite how wonderful he was early in Season Six before they slept together or even the immature version struggling with his feelings in Season Five and crying and watching Passions. In "Dead Things" and "Seeing Red" it was raw and intense and awful and showed anguish and feeling and worry and concern, and in the bathroom scene we've had the build-up to understand his feelings, so I can understand it and think about what Spike's going through. When he's just so callously selfish and careless of what Buffy's feeling that I really hate it. It's unfair to his character and cheapens what he feels, and so few scenes were shown where he was hurt or vulnerable, so he didn't have that motivation to lash out as if in defense. It was like he was the monster Buffy accused him of being, without real feeling. It was those scenes that I really hated. I still don't find that relationship believable after Spike kicks Buffy out when she's invisible, saying "If I can't have all of you..."
Spike loved Buffy and the writers seemed to forget that or twisted it for the Spuffy scenes that I hated.
Jan 14 2008 12:50 am #10Guest
Guest
Gotta say, I agree. I loved the scene where Spike reached out to touch Dawn's hair, and then chickened out and tried to play it off when she turned to him. I thought it was sweet and showed a side of Spike and everything, even that it was nice to see that he could feel lonely like that and that he wanted to comfort her. Lots of season 7 pissed me off, too. Spike was so beaten down and different with a soul and Buffy, even though she wasn't the totally innocent party, acted all self-righteous and condemning and how noble it was of her to forgive him after she spent a year abusing his love for her! The soul only matters to her when she can call Spike a soulless thing or when angel gets one! 
#1 hated Spuffy moment: when Buffy calls Spike 'weepy and wailed on' because of the soul he got for her, so he couldn't hurt her any more, that has nearly killed him and been torturing him. She tells him he's not good enough, again, and that she wants some muscle she can use and it doesn't matter if he's a monster because she doesn't care about him anyway! I just wanted to smack her!
#1 hated Spuffy moment: when Buffy calls Spike 'weepy and wailed on' because of the soul he got for her, so he couldn't hurt her any more, that has nearly killed him and been torturing him. She tells him he's not good enough, again, and that she wants some muscle she can use and it doesn't matter if he's a monster because she doesn't care about him anyway! I just wanted to smack her!
Not sure that "least favorite Spuffy" applies to mine, but I take it to mean acts that worked the most against Buffy & Spike in a positive and love filled relationship.
The episode that I have such strong emotional reactions to happen in "As You Were." That entire episode is like a summary of all the horrors and tragic consequences from Buffy’s history and Spike desperate love.
Riley is the huge contrast, in her mind, to everything that she loathes about Spike and her secret little dirty affaire. Riley and Sam, for me, represent all her delusions about Life and Love and the real nature of human love outside of parental or familial love.
Spike is the potential for a realistic love in her Slayer existence but all is lost and corrupted through the filters of her anger and hatred and Spike’s inability to stay strong when he tries to move away from her i.e., Buffy being invisible. The scene when Riley enters the crypt and Buffy easily believes everything that Riley states and Spike’s terrible emotional response; his "you know what I am …and you still come etc." (Sorry for the needed paraphrase) is my worst Spuffy moment. I don’t think there is another episode, outside the church Cross Scene, that shows us Spike stripped totally down and suffering, just like any human being would, from his connection to Buffy. Love, Betrayal, Desperation, Suffering, Honesty, Violence, Intense Emotions, Bitter Disappointment, and ultimately The Loss of Dreams and Hope – this is the face of Spuffy at its most intense and desperate.
James Marsters was at top form in this haunting scene, he makes you hate him as Macho Spike Vamp and then makes your heart cry along with Spike – and the ending with "it’s real for you" as she leaves him and all the potential of a great love. This man really knows how to use his body as part of his verbal language. His powerful performance in that scene made me physically ill and even now, I still have such strong memories of that Buffy night.
From "Dead Things" all things find their ultimate tragic ending at the bathroom.
Perhaps we could make a selection from the mentioned episode in this topic to watch as a group and discuss. Or we could maybe start with a lighter episode - I watched The Yoko Factor last week and just fell in love all over again with that script - Spike at his self-centered best, I really like the script, and acting, and humor - all the characters are great.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 14 2008 10:16 am #12Scarlet Ibis
I'd have to say tie between the alley scene in "Dead Things," and then her reaction to seeing her handiwork in "Older and Far Away." I think the extreme lack of remorse pissed me off the most.
Or, her allowing Riley to punch him, and then for her to follow suit in "As You Were." To trust Riley, after the last time they saw her, all the man did was *lie* up and down in their relationship and his whereabouts, and Spike was more forthcoming about his intent, even if she didn't want to hear it, or even if it made him seem callous. That was the most retarded thing ever--to believe and side with Riley. What a crock.
Or, her allowing Riley to punch him, and then for her to follow suit in "As You Were." To trust Riley, after the last time they saw her, all the man did was *lie* up and down in their relationship and his whereabouts, and Spike was more forthcoming about his intent, even if she didn't want to hear it, or even if it made him seem callous. That was the most retarded thing ever--to believe and side with Riley. What a crock.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
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nmcil, I think you have a great idea for a new thread.
I'm new to the forum and love how the debates and conversations go on, but I don't know if people can coordinate to watch an episode or scene to discuss it together. It's worth a shot, though. Personally, I love owning the DVDs of the episodes because I can go back and watch a scene whenever I need to and I get the commentary from the directors or writers about every scene. In fanfic sometimes authors rewrite sections of an episode and how they view the character's motives and thoughts and feelings, which can't be stated clearly on a TV show, is sometimes more insightful, completely random, or surprising to me and I'd love to hear everyone's ideas. I think it would be an especially good idea on a Spuffy shipper site because the few times I've heard people discussing certain lines or expressions in scenes it was objective and calculated and not nearly as much fun or focused.
I'm new to the forum and love how the debates and conversations go on, but I don't know if people can coordinate to watch an episode or scene to discuss it together. It's worth a shot, though. Personally, I love owning the DVDs of the episodes because I can go back and watch a scene whenever I need to and I get the commentary from the directors or writers about every scene. In fanfic sometimes authors rewrite sections of an episode and how they view the character's motives and thoughts and feelings, which can't be stated clearly on a TV show, is sometimes more insightful, completely random, or surprising to me and I'd love to hear everyone's ideas. I think it would be an especially good idea on a Spuffy shipper site because the few times I've heard people discussing certain lines or expressions in scenes it was objective and calculated and not nearly as much fun or focused.
Jan 14 2008 05:05 pm #14Guest
Guest
You guys are insane!, when Spike`s about to touch Dawn`s head and dosn`t is a sweet moment! *SIGH*....
The scene that`s the hardest for me to watch is the balcony scene, i don`t remember wich episode but god!... I hate the things he says to her, and my greatest fantasy at that moment was to punch his nose and other bodyparts. I don`t think Buffy was the reason spike treated her like that at all. When you look at the early episodes their nice to eachother, and the reason they started fighting was becaus buffy kissed him, and i really truly belive that if Spike had been a little more careful to Buffy after that and don`t try to pressure her like he did, we would have had "Happy season six"... And to those of you that complain about Buffy being emotion-less after the first night they spent together think about this: how would you have felt if someone told you that you were a demon and all wrong.. And even after that they do kiss and Buffy intend to stay before he says something like "Nothing like doing a Slayer".... Moron!!... Nope, i never never never never never never never watch season six, if it`s not for "Once moore with feeling", way too sad. I`m a season seven kinda girl!!!...
The scene that`s the hardest for me to watch is the balcony scene, i don`t remember wich episode but god!... I hate the things he says to her, and my greatest fantasy at that moment was to punch his nose and other bodyparts. I don`t think Buffy was the reason spike treated her like that at all. When you look at the early episodes their nice to eachother, and the reason they started fighting was becaus buffy kissed him, and i really truly belive that if Spike had been a little more careful to Buffy after that and don`t try to pressure her like he did, we would have had "Happy season six"... And to those of you that complain about Buffy being emotion-less after the first night they spent together think about this: how would you have felt if someone told you that you were a demon and all wrong.. And even after that they do kiss and Buffy intend to stay before he says something like "Nothing like doing a Slayer".... Moron!!... Nope, i never never never never never never never watch season six, if it`s not for "Once moore with feeling", way too sad. I`m a season seven kinda girl!!!...
Jan 14 2008 06:56 pm #15TammyDevil666
Finally, someone agrees with me. I hate that everyone is always on Buffy's case for the way she acted, but never on Spike's. He was just as much in the wrong. I hated that whole season, with the exception of Once More, With Feeling and Tabula Rasa. After that, it all went to hell. I was more for the 7th as well.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
As most of you said, the bathroom scene in Seeing Red. Adding the "Didn't take long, did it?" in Entropy, one of the moments I hated Buffy so much, she told him to move on then she gets angry that he did as he was told? Also, the balcony scene in Dead Things, I didn't like how Spike took advantage of Buffy's weak emotional state. So most of my hated Spike/Buffy scenes are in season six.
Perhaps we could make a selection from the mentioned episode in this topic to watch as a group and discuss.
It was brought up on another thread that we should pick an episode and do something like this. If you wanna do it, somebody start the thread and pick an episode.
It was brought up on another thread that we should pick an episode and do something like this. If you wanna do it, somebody start the thread and pick an episode.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
My knee jerk reaction to the original question is "Dead Things" followed closely by "Seeing Red" but, again, that's knee jerk. After letting myself think about it I really feel the end of "Intervention" is the hardest for me to watch. Why? Because it was the moment that made a Spike/Buffy pairing possible. It's horribly bitter sweet - especially in light of her death at the end of s5 - and the astonishment and gratitude in Spike's face is heartbreaking.
It's no secret I have a hate/hate relationship with s6 so I tend to lean toward enjoying fiction that focuses on a Spike/Buffy relationship that was able to bloom AU to the two final seasons.
That's a great question. I'm still reviewing in my head and all sorts of moments are popping up in my head. I think an episode discussion would be a great thread.
~ Q
It's no secret I have a hate/hate relationship with s6 so I tend to lean toward enjoying fiction that focuses on a Spike/Buffy relationship that was able to bloom AU to the two final seasons.
That's a great question. I'm still reviewing in my head and all sorts of moments are popping up in my head. I think an episode discussion would be a great thread.
~ Q
~ Q
Jan 15 2008 03:01 am #19Guest
Guest
I think it depends on what you are considering. For acting, I actually do not like the scene in Touched, where Spike has his great line to Buffy about being "the one". I liked some of the words, and the idea behind it, but it did not have the chemistry I had fallen in love with. Yet, the scene in Chosen, where Spike teases Buffy about his pride right after "Angel-kisses" is actually one of my favorites because I love Sarah's face when she touches James' cheek (or pretends to), there is so much compassion and love there.
I didn't like the bathroom scene because I cannot watch it and I wish the writers did not feel Spike needed to be taken to that place to get his soul. (I also supremely dislike the idea of a soul, so that may be a partial reason)
D
I didn't like the bathroom scene because I cannot watch it and I wish the writers did not feel Spike needed to be taken to that place to get his soul. (I also supremely dislike the idea of a soul, so that may be a partial reason)
D
Jan 15 2008 03:41 am #20Guest
Guest
I'm gonna vote for the pathetic date attempt in "Crush". For some reason, that is so much more squirm-worthy to me than either "Dead Things" and "Seeing Red". Maybe I'm sick. The most appealling thing about Spike is his ability to see the emotional truths that are not apparent to others, and he was so off the mark this time that it was painful. His tentativeness with "Do you like the Ramones?" and "Do you want it to be [a date]?" are just so hard to watch, probably because we've all been there, alas. Chaining up Buffy later didn't get him any closer to reality, either. Even for those of us rooting for the guy, he deserved the disaster that was the whole evening.
--Reb
--Reb
Jan 15 2008 03:58 am #21Guest
Guest
My least favorite Spuffy moment was actually Dead Things, when he looks at her and asks her if she even likes him. I don't know why, but it broke my heart when she said 'sometimes.' I guess I just felt for him in that scene. And I think unlike most people, I think in the balcony scene Spike was trying to connect with her the only way he knew how. Darkness had always been his main connections before; Drusilla, Angelus. I think he honestly thought that was a way to get close to her, warped though his methods may have been.
~Nika
~Nika
Jan 15 2008 04:28 am #22Guest
Guest
The worst, in my opinion, was in "End of Days" in Season Seven, when they meet up in the Summers living room for the first time after she left him in that house. They're trying to address it, and he asks her "What does that mean?"
And after the dozens of private and public hells comes that condescendingly callous line, "Does it have to mean anything?" Of course it meant everything to him - he just told her it did. And then of course, the next time he sees her, she's macking on Angel. No wonder he doesn't believe her when she says it.
For me, that's the worst part, because he holds out hope until that moment that he might be the one she loved. Seeing it just kind of die in his eyes is the most painful thing, because it's that hope that has kept him going until then.
Power of the Book
And after the dozens of private and public hells comes that condescendingly callous line, "Does it have to mean anything?" Of course it meant everything to him - he just told her it did. And then of course, the next time he sees her, she's macking on Angel. No wonder he doesn't believe her when she says it.
For me, that's the worst part, because he holds out hope until that moment that he might be the one she loved. Seeing it just kind of die in his eyes is the most painful thing, because it's that hope that has kept him going until then.
Power of the Book
Should we try to start up a small list of Pivotal Episodes for Buffy & Spike. I suggested 3 days for members to watch, is that enough time? We could also do any Buffy-Angel episode that members feel are important as well I would also be willing to put up screencaps that would help the discussion - One other members placed side-by-side images at their LJ and it was very helpful. I can very easily start a Flickr Image Group for us. Flickr does have a Free Account that members could sign up for and the site is completely easy to use. It would be nice to have a group gallery site - One place where we can all easily post images.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
"My least favorite Spuffy moment was actually Dead Things, when he looks at her and asks her if she even likes him. I don't know why, but it broke my heart when she said 'sometimes.' I guess I just felt for him in that scene. And I think unlike most people, I think in the balcony scene Spike was trying to connect with her the only way he knew how."
Agree, that was such a great scene - the only time you actually seem them smiling and looking like a real couple in love - then we have the huge reality check of "do you even like me?" and these small moments of positive feelings from Buffy end up at that horrific brutality in the alley. I know that "Dead Things" is not an episode that many might want to see, but it really is so powerful and vital to their relationship. One good thing about having the DVD is that one can always fast forward -
Agree, that was such a great scene - the only time you actually seem them smiling and looking like a real couple in love - then we have the huge reality check of "do you even like me?" and these small moments of positive feelings from Buffy end up at that horrific brutality in the alley. I know that "Dead Things" is not an episode that many might want to see, but it really is so powerful and vital to their relationship. One good thing about having the DVD is that one can always fast forward -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 16 2008 03:10 am #25Guest
Guest
At the end of As You Were when Buffy breaks up with Spike I really hate it. Not just cuz she's breaking it off, but how she does it. She's just destroyed his home after hitting him, letting him be hit, instantly judging and condemning him with her ex, and that crack with Riley about not finding a way to shut him up yet. Buffy goes to him, ignores how he might be feeling, and says she should have remembered what he was, like she never expected anything more of a soulless thing. Spike tries to play the bad boy trying to seduce her again, because that's the only way he thinks he canhold onto her, and I hate that we lose all his feelings and love and goodness to it. Then she calls him William after saying that what he's been getting her to do with him is killing her. What about him? That hurts him so much, but it doesn't matter to her. And she calls him a human name, like it's not just that he's a soulless thing, it's the human in him isn't enough or good enough. I hated that. And she just walks away and Spike, the stubborn, impossible, pain in the ass fighter, just watches her and she's smiling. 
Hated it.
Hated it.
Jan 16 2008 04:23 am #26Guest
Guest
It wasn't a good scene, but to me it showed that she finally realized what she was doing to him was wrong and it would be best to end it. I'm glad that she finally did, and I think her calling him William proved that maybe she was starting to see him as more like a human. That's just my theory, anyway.
Jan 16 2008 04:57 am #27Scarlet Ibis
I have to respectfully disagree, Guest. I think that once again, Buffy made it about her. She made it about her hurting, her pain, and his be damned. I think that calling him William was a particular slap in the face, because true, she's acknowledging more than just a soulless demon, or that it was real for him or whatever, but simultaneously saying that hey, your feelings still aren't worth shit to me, which is why she let Riley hit him before following suit. Yeah, that was the worst episode for me in season six. And "Older and Far Away." Like I said before, I can cope with the events of DT, but there was no remorse. That's what gets my gourd the most.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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I have to agree with Scarlet because I always felt that her calling him William as she was breaking up with him hurt him more than anything. Cause calling him William was acknowledging the human part of him, acknowledging his feelings for her, and than completely disregarding them.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."
-Dag Hammersjold
-Dag Hammersjold
Jan 16 2008 08:42 am #29Guest
Guest
We don't really know that's how it was for her. Just because she acts or says a certain thing, doesn't mean that's really how she feels. She could have been feeling a lot of remorse for what she did, it was just never shown. This is why I prefer fan fiction, that way we get to know more about what she's feeling.
Jan 16 2008 08:52 am #30Scarlet Ibis
Just because she acts or says a certain thing, doesn't mean that's really how she feels.
I think her actions spoke quite loud, and utterly clear for her. We can't use fan fiction to contradict what was shown. If we take that route, ignoring what she said or how she acted, then one could surmise she was in love with Spike since she saw him in that alley in season two, or when she revoked his invitation, etc., and that really wasn't the case.
I think her actions spoke quite loud, and utterly clear for her. We can't use fan fiction to contradict what was shown. If we take that route, ignoring what she said or how she acted, then one could surmise she was in love with Spike since she saw him in that alley in season two, or when she revoked his invitation, etc., and that really wasn't the case.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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The entire episode of As You Were is all about using people and delusions - Of course she uses the name William it makes perfect sense from the perspective of how destructive and destroyed Buffy has become - Spike is a combination of Man&Vamp by now and the use of Willaim only makes this more clear. The ending scene also tells states again her true feelings and how she values Spike; the only way he is capable of being (the bust your chops lines) Everything is so totally skewed in her mind - the perfect couple that is Riley & Sam, using Spike to deal with issues of abandonment and rejection, using another being as nothing more than a living sex toy, the list goes on and on. For Buffy to show are signs of remorse or care or guilt, in her mind it has to be William - Spike is not worthy and even more important I think is that using "Spike" brings everything back to reality and what her part has been. Both Buffy and Spike are on the path of destruction; of dreams and hope and self, but eventually Spike gets on the road to Africa.
As much as I love Spuffy I always try to remember that Buffy really loathes Spike and is disgusted with herself and her desire for him. For sure, she can forget at times all this turmoil, anger and hatred, but they surface oh so quickly when she is confronted with having to acknowledge any part of their relationship -
As much as I love Spuffy I always try to remember that Buffy really loathes Spike and is disgusted with herself and her desire for him. For sure, she can forget at times all this turmoil, anger and hatred, but they surface oh so quickly when she is confronted with having to acknowledge any part of their relationship -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 16 2008 08:19 pm #32pfeifferpack
There's two
The beginning of Normal Again when Buffy is talking with Spike in the cemetery about Xander's non wedding. When Xander and Willow arrive Buffy is not even willing to accord Spike the status of friend that he has clearly earned but instead starts to make the excuse that she's checking Spike for contraband! What a slap in his face! Her good friends might object to Spike as a love partner but she should have at least insisted he be accorded status of friend. He'd even been invited to the bloody wedding and before her death she had insisted they treat him as a comrade!
The other spreads over S6 and is every time she used the words "Evil, disgusting, thing with no good in" him. Those words hurt so much more than the beating in the alley and they helped make the mess he became when he got the soul (as he then agreed with that assessment) and later was a reason he didn't call her when he returned. She destroyed his sense of self, of achievement over the demon each time she said those words.
Kathleen
Edited with:
Buffy's behavior when Riley returned and her choice of saying William to Spike inthe break up. The whole attitude of "what can I expect. You're a vampire" and then apologizing JUST to the bit of humanity she couldn't deny was so cruel (needlessly so). I despise that entire episode on every level really.
Didn't care for her running off after Xander in Entropy after Xander had tried to stake Spike and the truth came out either. Xander shouldn't have been her priority and her choices helped lead to the SR fiasco.
Also Power of the Book is right about the "Does it have to mean anything" after Spike has told her to stake him if she was going to make light of how much it DID mean to him. I think THAT is when Spike gave up his hope finally and for all. I think that is why he said the "no you don't...." and why he was afraid to contact her when he returned. That one moment when she blew it once and for all and blew his self confidence/belief in his perceptions once and for all. She would need to work to regain his trust after that.
I also didn't like Spike being written as such a dickhead with his comments in Dead Things especially (that balcony scene)....he was too emotionally intuitive nd loved her too much to sink to that IMHO.
The beginning of Normal Again when Buffy is talking with Spike in the cemetery about Xander's non wedding. When Xander and Willow arrive Buffy is not even willing to accord Spike the status of friend that he has clearly earned but instead starts to make the excuse that she's checking Spike for contraband! What a slap in his face! Her good friends might object to Spike as a love partner but she should have at least insisted he be accorded status of friend. He'd even been invited to the bloody wedding and before her death she had insisted they treat him as a comrade!
The other spreads over S6 and is every time she used the words "Evil, disgusting, thing with no good in" him. Those words hurt so much more than the beating in the alley and they helped make the mess he became when he got the soul (as he then agreed with that assessment) and later was a reason he didn't call her when he returned. She destroyed his sense of self, of achievement over the demon each time she said those words.
Kathleen
Edited with:
Buffy's behavior when Riley returned and her choice of saying William to Spike inthe break up. The whole attitude of "what can I expect. You're a vampire" and then apologizing JUST to the bit of humanity she couldn't deny was so cruel (needlessly so). I despise that entire episode on every level really.
Didn't care for her running off after Xander in Entropy after Xander had tried to stake Spike and the truth came out either. Xander shouldn't have been her priority and her choices helped lead to the SR fiasco.
Also Power of the Book is right about the "Does it have to mean anything" after Spike has told her to stake him if she was going to make light of how much it DID mean to him. I think THAT is when Spike gave up his hope finally and for all. I think that is why he said the "no you don't...." and why he was afraid to contact her when he returned. That one moment when she blew it once and for all and blew his self confidence/belief in his perceptions once and for all. She would need to work to regain his trust after that.
I also didn't like Spike being written as such a dickhead with his comments in Dead Things especially (that balcony scene)....he was too emotionally intuitive nd loved her too much to sink to that IMHO.
Jan 16 2008 08:37 pm #33Guest
Guest
Um, I'm sorry if I sound dumb, but people use letters for episodes all the time, like OMWF for Once more with feeling. I don't get what you mean by writing SR, though. Is it an episode? I can't remember one with Spuffy scenes or 'fiasco' like you said with those initials.
Jan 16 2008 08:38 pm #34Guest
Guest
Sorry, sorry! SEEING RED. I'm an idiot. I was trying to think of a souled Spike fiasco, and Season 7. Can't edit cuz I'm a guest, but I do know what SR was referring to.
Jan 18 2008 07:56 pm #35Guest
Guest
I hated what they did to both Spike and Buffy in season six. They dragged them down to their worst. The beginning half up to Tabula Rasa on season six was great in the devolpment of Spuffy, Spike was sweet and attentive to her. We were show that they could become friends. And then they sleep together, and while I admit that Spike said some things he shouldn't have the moment after, i think he was retreated back into his bad boy shield once he saw the disgust on her face.
But it just seemed like the writers were tring to make him as someone completely different then we'd ever seen before. We'd seen Spike in love with Drusilla, and what he did for his love for Buffy is season five, and the balcony scene in Dead Things was very unlike a Spike in love. In the episode you can go from feeling sorry for him in the beginning, than the balcony scene where he wasn't at his best moments, and then the alley scene where he was just trying to protect her and having him get beat down for his efforts.
And I hate Seeing Red because they took him to a level he would have never done. They devised the whole 'rape' as a means to get his soul, but I hate that they took it to that. I could never imagine him trying to rape Drusilla, and he was more in love with Buffy than he ever was with Dru, which is why I tend to avoid Seeing Red because it is so OOC for him to me.
But it just seemed like the writers were tring to make him as someone completely different then we'd ever seen before. We'd seen Spike in love with Drusilla, and what he did for his love for Buffy is season five, and the balcony scene in Dead Things was very unlike a Spike in love. In the episode you can go from feeling sorry for him in the beginning, than the balcony scene where he wasn't at his best moments, and then the alley scene where he was just trying to protect her and having him get beat down for his efforts.
And I hate Seeing Red because they took him to a level he would have never done. They devised the whole 'rape' as a means to get his soul, but I hate that they took it to that. I could never imagine him trying to rape Drusilla, and he was more in love with Buffy than he ever was with Dru, which is why I tend to avoid Seeing Red because it is so OOC for him to me.
They devised the whole 'rape' as a means to get his soul, but I hate that they took it to that. I could never imagine him trying to rape Drusilla, and he was more in love with Buffy than he ever was with Dru, which is why I tend to avoid Seeing Red because it is so OOC for him to me.
When Spike began his advances in Seeing Red he wasn't consciously trying to rape her, all their time 'together' was violent and rushed from what we were shown, so he saw it as a way of reminding her what 'they had'. I do not condone his actions by any means, attempted rape is attempted rape, but he stopped once he realized what he was doing, and their whole relationship was leading to an outburst like that. Aaaaand, I'm off topic, so *shuts up and waves bye-bye*.
When Spike began his advances in Seeing Red he wasn't consciously trying to rape her, all their time 'together' was violent and rushed from what we were shown, so he saw it as a way of reminding her what 'they had'. I do not condone his actions by any means, attempted rape is attempted rape, but he stopped once he realized what he was doing, and their whole relationship was leading to an outburst like that. Aaaaand, I'm off topic, so *shuts up and waves bye-bye*.
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Jan 18 2008 08:22 pm #37Guest
Guest
But it just seemed like the writers were tring to make him as someone completely different then we'd ever seen before. We'd seen Spike in love with Drusilla, and what he did for his love for Buffy is season five, and the balcony scene in Dead Things was very unlike a Spike in love.
I can see why this scene makes people not too happy with Spike, but I also think it's being interpreted wrong. Spike knew that Buffy wanted, needed him to be the bad guy, so in that moment, she gets to view him as such, and Spike gets her to allow herself to be let off the hook. Later in the episode, he tells her in that alley "Lay it all on me." I believe that balcony scene was just another variation of that. Spike didn't drag her up there to the balcony, away from her friends, she willingly walked up there, to be alone in the dark. And who's there to seek her out, make sure she isn't alone? He is. And I'm sure Buffy feels guilty for not being able to be with her friends, so he tries to take her pain away the best way he knows how.
I can see why this scene makes people not too happy with Spike, but I also think it's being interpreted wrong. Spike knew that Buffy wanted, needed him to be the bad guy, so in that moment, she gets to view him as such, and Spike gets her to allow herself to be let off the hook. Later in the episode, he tells her in that alley "Lay it all on me." I believe that balcony scene was just another variation of that. Spike didn't drag her up there to the balcony, away from her friends, she willingly walked up there, to be alone in the dark. And who's there to seek her out, make sure she isn't alone? He is. And I'm sure Buffy feels guilty for not being able to be with her friends, so he tries to take her pain away the best way he knows how.
Scarlet I'm sure I've mentioned it a couple of times, but you're sooo tuned in with my thoughts it's scary!!!
xxx
xxx
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Spike knew that Buffy wanted, needed him to be the bad guy, so in that moment, she gets to view him as such, and Spike gets her to allow herself to be let off the hook.
But that's not good or healthy, and not what Spike should have done in the situation, and letting her view him as the bad guy is doing her a disservice. Of course, there are a lot of things Spike shouldn't have done in season six, and it makes me wonder if he'd been different, if he'd put his foot down and stood up to Buffy when she treated him like crap, if it might've done her good.
But that's not good or healthy, and not what Spike should have done in the situation, and letting her view him as the bad guy is doing her a disservice. Of course, there are a lot of things Spike shouldn't have done in season six, and it makes me wonder if he'd been different, if he'd put his foot down and stood up to Buffy when she treated him like crap, if it might've done her good.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 19 2008 01:25 am #41Scarlet Ibis
But what healthy relationship does Spike have that to base on? He was doing the best he could with the knowledge that he had. "What makes Buffy feels better is what I'm going to do" was his motto. Not saying it's right, but that's where his mindset was. He didn't have the moral high ground in that relationship, but still managed to do oodles better in it than she did.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Never mind. I think we've had this conversation about 6,000 times already.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 19 2008 04:28 am #43Guest
Guest
Okay, I'm being really dumb, but when you guys mentioned the reaching out for Dawn thing, which episode is that from? I can't believe I don't remember, but it's just not coming to me
Jan 19 2008 04:38 am #44TammyDevil666
"Tough Love," when Tara was brain sucked and Buffy took Dawn to Spike's crypt to watch her.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
I tend to enjoy when Spike has sweet scenes with other Scoobys. I really like the one with Xander in Spiral, and the one where he wants to bite Willow but can't, and the one where he and Giles laugh together in season six, his scene with Anya in season four. I think Spike can win the Scoobys' hearts if he reaches out more, but he seems more interested in winning Buffy's heart.
Well Said - this scene has always been (from my pov) more about Buffy than Spike - it reads very much like her dreamscape and how she connects Spike as a symbol of her destructive self-image. The dreamscape, balcony scene and alley scene all connect and contrast, in splendid visuals; Buffy's anger and self-hatred and Spike's love.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
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Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 23 2008 12:28 am #47Darth Rosenberg
As far as sucky Spuffy moments go, Chosen definitely ranks high, along with all the aforementioned - SR bathroom scene, Dead Things balcony scene, As You Were with Riley scene - but i have to agree with... whoever it was, I can't find the comment now, about the one where Spike's invitation is revoked. You can see the pain, hurt and betrayal second by second, and it's heartbreaking. I also have a love/hate relationship with Smashed - it's where the Spuffy relationship got started, for 'love'. And it's where the Spuffy relationship got started, for 'hate'.
Nov 30 2008 05:16 am #48chlarkspuffy
The bathroom scene from Seeing Red. I have only ever seen it once. Never again. That was so horribly OOC for Spike.
The balcony scene in Dead Things doesn't paint Spike well, but it doesn't stray too far from his character/arc for the season. It's nowhere on my list of dreaded Spuffy scenes. Now, the alley scene is definitely featured. I cannot help but wince just remembering how she says she will never be his girl (Bangel call, I take it) and how there's nothing good in him blah blah. One of my biggest disappointments with Buffy is she never got her redemptive arc. All the other characters who did something wrong - Xander, Anya. Willow, Spike - did, but not Buffy. Her actions towards Spike in Season 6 were never addressed.
I also dislike the bits from the last 2 episodes in which Bangel kiss (although when I was a Bangel fan I remember tuning in for the finale and recording just that scene
) and when she comments in "Does it have to mean something." Poor Spike.
The alley scene in Fool for Love is painful too, but I can bear to watch it partly because I love watching JM deliver the scene and partly because I love what happens next on the porch.
Crush might have made the list were it not for a simply adorabale performance by JM.
I also hate how dismissive Buffy is of Spike in As You Were (the crypt blow-up scene and the break-up) and wanted her to hurt real bad in the first Spuffy scene in Entropy.
The balcony scene in Dead Things doesn't paint Spike well, but it doesn't stray too far from his character/arc for the season. It's nowhere on my list of dreaded Spuffy scenes. Now, the alley scene is definitely featured. I cannot help but wince just remembering how she says she will never be his girl (Bangel call, I take it) and how there's nothing good in him blah blah. One of my biggest disappointments with Buffy is she never got her redemptive arc. All the other characters who did something wrong - Xander, Anya. Willow, Spike - did, but not Buffy. Her actions towards Spike in Season 6 were never addressed.
I also dislike the bits from the last 2 episodes in which Bangel kiss (although when I was a Bangel fan I remember tuning in for the finale and recording just that scene
) and when she comments in "Does it have to mean something." Poor Spike. The alley scene in Fool for Love is painful too, but I can bear to watch it partly because I love watching JM deliver the scene and partly because I love what happens next on the porch.
Crush might have made the list were it not for a simply adorabale performance by JM.
I also hate how dismissive Buffy is of Spike in As You Were (the crypt blow-up scene and the break-up) and wanted her to hurt real bad in the first Spuffy scene in Entropy.
"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."
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Nov 30 2008 05:28 pm #49BecomingChosenGirl13
The bathroom scene is shit. When Buffy tells spike he is a thing or whatever is also shit. The beating in "Dead things" is big shit.
I didn`t actually have to big of a problem with Buffy telling Spike he is beneath he, it didn`t really bother me.. It kinda had to be there for us to get that nice Spuffy moment afterwards.
I didn`t actually have to big of a problem with Buffy telling Spike he is beneath he, it didn`t really bother me.. It kinda had to be there for us to get that nice Spuffy moment afterwards.
Nov 30 2008 05:32 pm #50BecomingChosenGirl13
And i forgot the biggest shit of them all: "As you were". I WILL NEVER EVER WATCH THAT EPISODE AGAIN!!. Maybe if i ever become an emotional cutter, but till then; NO.
Nov 30 2008 07:36 pm #51slaymesoftly
Moderator
The bathroom scene in "Seeing Red" is obviously a downer for everyone. However, I didn't actually see it as being OOC for Spike. He was desperate, drunk and had just found out how badly he'd hurt Buffy by shagging Anya. He was there to apologize for hurting her, and to try (once again) to get her to admit to feeling something(love) for him. He was, at that point, still a demon with no soul to guide his actions. That's of course, based on the assumption that you accept the Jossverse view of demons and the value of souls... Anyway, the scene was hard to watch - and yay to Sarah and James for that -- but when the words "I know you feel it when I'm in you" and "I'll make you feel it" left his mouth, my heart broke for both of them. He was trying to connect any way he could and force her to stop denying what he was sure she felt, she was hurt and couldn't believe what he was trying to do to her.
I agree, Buffy's dismissing Spike so cavalierly in front of Riley was awful. And I totally agree with chlarkspuffy that Buffy needed a redemptive arc. I guess they figured that saving the world again made up for her behavior in season vi, but it would have been nice to see it addressed at some point. They wouldn't have had to belabor the point - just an admission from Buffy that she didn't treat Spike well, could have paid more attention to or been more honest with Dawn and the Scoobies - something.
I agree, Buffy's dismissing Spike so cavalierly in front of Riley was awful. And I totally agree with chlarkspuffy that Buffy needed a redemptive arc. I guess they figured that saving the world again made up for her behavior in season vi, but it would have been nice to see it addressed at some point. They wouldn't have had to belabor the point - just an admission from Buffy that she didn't treat Spike well, could have paid more attention to or been more honest with Dawn and the Scoobies - something.
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I am upper management.
The bathroom scene in "Seeing Red" is obviously a downer for everyone. However, I didn't actually see it as being OOC for Spike.
Yeah, me either... it actually fits pretty well with Spike's previous insistence that Buffy has feelings for him, his refusal to take no for an answer, and their violent sexual relationship in general.
I guess they figured that saving the world again made up for her behavior in season vi
I don't think so... Buffy doesn't save the world in season 6 (unless you mean saving the world in season 7 makes up for it... but we're supposed to be on Buffy's side for all of season 7, so I don't think they expected us to wait until the end of the season to forgive her). I think Buffy's epiphany in "Grave" was supposed to be her "redemption" of sorts - her realization that she's been approaching life all wrong since her resurrection. She really only deals specifically with Dawn ("I want to show you the world" ), but I think we're supposed to get the sense that this is a changed Buffy, that this one is whole and healed and not the damaged, depressed person she's been all season. I can see why that's not satisfying to most people, though.
Yeah, me either... it actually fits pretty well with Spike's previous insistence that Buffy has feelings for him, his refusal to take no for an answer, and their violent sexual relationship in general.
I guess they figured that saving the world again made up for her behavior in season vi
I don't think so... Buffy doesn't save the world in season 6 (unless you mean saving the world in season 7 makes up for it... but we're supposed to be on Buffy's side for all of season 7, so I don't think they expected us to wait until the end of the season to forgive her). I think Buffy's epiphany in "Grave" was supposed to be her "redemption" of sorts - her realization that she's been approaching life all wrong since her resurrection. She really only deals specifically with Dawn ("I want to show you the world" ), but I think we're supposed to get the sense that this is a changed Buffy, that this one is whole and healed and not the damaged, depressed person she's been all season. I can see why that's not satisfying to most people, though.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 30 2008 08:56 pm #53slaymesoftly
Moderator
Um, yeah, I did mean that she saved the world again in season vii - but I guess you're right. We were supposed to see the conversation with Dawn as some sort of epiphany. Didn't do it for me at the time. At least I don't recall that it did. And it doesn't address the issue of how she treated Spike. If she'd addressed the issue of her using him (during the breakup scene) as something that was hurting <i>him</i>, I could have bought it a bit better; but her response to his saying he didn't mind is "it's killing me", so still all about Buffy and what makes her feel good. And I thought the later "you need to move on" speech was unnecessarily cruel. If she really thinks it's real for him (and how dismissive is that?), then she needed to be more careful of his feelings. I get that they needed to build up to Seeing Red so that Spike had a reason to go get his soul, but the way they did it makes Buffy look very bad and uncaring. And we know (and she knows) that she really does care. She admits to it a bit at the wedding, and doesn't try very hard to hide it when they catch the Spike/Anya action. If we're to believe that Buffy has recovered herself after the post-resurrection funk, then where was the girl who would kiss him for not ratting them out under torture? Who told her friends and watcher that he was coming with them? And so forth.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Nov 30 2008 09:32 pm #54Scarlet Ibis
I agree with all that you said slayme.
We were supposed to see the conversation with Dawn as some sort of epiphany. Didn't do it for me at the time.
I guess the writers figured that that was enough (though it really wasn't). Basically, they had her backed into a corner by her BFF who wants to kill her and destroy the world, and when that doesn't happen, she has some kind of epiphany of appreciating life, and wanting to show Dawn the world (though they don't leave the state of California, let alone Sunnydale until it's a crater), and that alone would absolve her of everything else. And that didn't work for me then, or now.
We were supposed to see the conversation with Dawn as some sort of epiphany. Didn't do it for me at the time.
I guess the writers figured that that was enough (though it really wasn't). Basically, they had her backed into a corner by her BFF who wants to kill her and destroy the world, and when that doesn't happen, she has some kind of epiphany of appreciating life, and wanting to show Dawn the world (though they don't leave the state of California, let alone Sunnydale until it's a crater), and that alone would absolve her of everything else. And that didn't work for me then, or now.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 30 2008 10:15 pm #55chlarkspuffy
To me a redemption means Buffy verbally acknowledging her mistreatment of Spike and apologizing to Spike for that. He did it and more for that one instant in which he crossed the line. Not once does Buffy come out and apologize to him for anything she did or said to him in S6 and she had a lot to apologise for. Certainly more than Spike did. The closest she comes to addressing the issue is in that scene with Giles in S7 wherein she says they should give Spike a chance if he is to be good (loosely paraphrased).
True, Buffy does go to great lengths to support and defend Spike, but again, she fails in not addressing her past actions.
True, Buffy does go to great lengths to support and defend Spike, but again, she fails in not addressing her past actions.
"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox
- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Didn't do it for me at the time. At least I don't recall that it did.
Nah, it didn't do it for me, either. Although that's more because epiphanies don't tend to last long in the Buffyverse than the particular content. Also, I wasn't really expecting any kind of epiphany about Spike at that point. I figured we'd have to wait until he came back to deal with those issues. I disagree with some of the other stuff you said, but I've already had that conversation on another thread.
To me a redemption means Buffy verbally acknowledging her mistreatment of Spike and apologizing to Spike for that.
That's not the only definition of redemption. We don't, for example, see Spike apologizing for all the people he killed over the years. He doesn't really seem to regret it the way Angel does - he just accepts it as something that happened, something he can't change, and he resolves to be different from now on. That's where his redemption comes from - from doing good. And we definitely see Buffy do that - she accepts that she used Spike (both in "As You Were" and reaffirmed in "Never Leave Me," if that first one wasn't satisfying to you) and she changes the way she treats Spike, no more violence, no more sexual relationship, encouraging him and supporting him in being good, and defending him to others. Does Spike deserve an apology? Sure, but I'm not hinging my entire perception of Buffy on whether she says one specific phrase. Everything about their relationship is different, and they both can see that.
Nah, it didn't do it for me, either. Although that's more because epiphanies don't tend to last long in the Buffyverse than the particular content. Also, I wasn't really expecting any kind of epiphany about Spike at that point. I figured we'd have to wait until he came back to deal with those issues. I disagree with some of the other stuff you said, but I've already had that conversation on another thread.
To me a redemption means Buffy verbally acknowledging her mistreatment of Spike and apologizing to Spike for that.
That's not the only definition of redemption. We don't, for example, see Spike apologizing for all the people he killed over the years. He doesn't really seem to regret it the way Angel does - he just accepts it as something that happened, something he can't change, and he resolves to be different from now on. That's where his redemption comes from - from doing good. And we definitely see Buffy do that - she accepts that she used Spike (both in "As You Were" and reaffirmed in "Never Leave Me," if that first one wasn't satisfying to you) and she changes the way she treats Spike, no more violence, no more sexual relationship, encouraging him and supporting him in being good, and defending him to others. Does Spike deserve an apology? Sure, but I'm not hinging my entire perception of Buffy on whether she says one specific phrase. Everything about their relationship is different, and they both can see that.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 30 2008 11:05 pm #57chlarkspuffy
When you put it that way, I have to concede your point. I guess the horribleness of S6 was so extreme that I feel like I need more from Buffy, if that makes sense. Ignore me. I'm just a greedy Spike fan who doesn't always like Buffy or the Scoobies in the last 2 seasons.
"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox
- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Nov 30 2008 11:14 pm #58Scarlet Ibis
I guess the horribleness of S6 was so extreme that I feel like I need more from Buffy, if that makes sense.
Keeping it on their relationship in general, and not their past faults overall, I do think that there should have been more from Buffy. In order to truly grow or whatever, you have to own up to your mistakes, and she just doesn't. The only reason Spike is there in "Never Leave Me," according to Buffy, is to understand the thing that's been playing them. I don't doubt that she wanted to help him, but the fact that she's still covering in front of her friends...it's a regression. She was better at standing up for herself and her decision making in late s5.
Keeping it on their relationship in general, and not their past faults overall, I do think that there should have been more from Buffy. In order to truly grow or whatever, you have to own up to your mistakes, and she just doesn't. The only reason Spike is there in "Never Leave Me," according to Buffy, is to understand the thing that's been playing them. I don't doubt that she wanted to help him, but the fact that she's still covering in front of her friends...it's a regression. She was better at standing up for herself and her decision making in late s5.
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I don't doubt that she wanted to help him, but the fact that she's still covering in front of her friends...it's a regression.
I don't think she's covering so much as trying to convince them she's doing the right thing. She doesn't deny that she wants to help Spike: "I'm not keeping him around just to help him" (my emphasis) implies she is going to help him, but it's not the only reason. And to be perfectly honest, I don't blame the Scoobies for needing more than that. Spike has been out killing people, unhindered by the chip or the soul, and doesn't seem to have any control over it. I'd be pretty scared to live under the same roof with him if I were them. If Buffy just wanted to help Spike, she could take him away from the Scoobies and do whatever she needs to do to help him get better. But if she wants put all her friends in danger by keeping Spike around, then she owes them a little bit more of a reason why.
She was better at standing up for herself and her decision making in late s5.
Yeah... but that was season five, and a lot of things have happened since then. You're the first one to point out how many things Buffy did wrong in season six. After the year she's had, can you blame her or anyone else for not having confidence in her decision-making skills?
I don't think she's covering so much as trying to convince them she's doing the right thing. She doesn't deny that she wants to help Spike: "I'm not keeping him around just to help him" (my emphasis) implies she is going to help him, but it's not the only reason. And to be perfectly honest, I don't blame the Scoobies for needing more than that. Spike has been out killing people, unhindered by the chip or the soul, and doesn't seem to have any control over it. I'd be pretty scared to live under the same roof with him if I were them. If Buffy just wanted to help Spike, she could take him away from the Scoobies and do whatever she needs to do to help him get better. But if she wants put all her friends in danger by keeping Spike around, then she owes them a little bit more of a reason why.
She was better at standing up for herself and her decision making in late s5.
Yeah... but that was season five, and a lot of things have happened since then. You're the first one to point out how many things Buffy did wrong in season six. After the year she's had, can you blame her or anyone else for not having confidence in her decision-making skills?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 01 2008 02:31 am #60Scarlet Ibis
I'd be pretty scared to live under the same roof with him if I were them. If Buffy just wanted to help Spike, she could take him away from the Scoobies and do whatever she needs to do to help him get better.
The only one who has to live under the same roof really is Dawn. And when she first accused Spike of killing people, she still thought it safe enough for him to stay under Xander's roof--her average Joe friend, and not with a Slayer and a powerful witch who could keep Spike in line if need be. Also, Buffy is the head of Buffy's house (or she should be), so where exactly is it she would be taking him away to? If she wants to help him, her house is pretty much it.
You're the first one to point out how many things Buffy did wrong in season six. After the year she's had, can you blame her or anyone else for not having confidence in her decision-making skills?
Oh, I can't take the credit for being the first, and I'm sure I won't be the last. And we weren't talking about season six Buffy--this is season seven "I had an awesome epiphany half a year ago" Buffy--the upgraded version. She's older and has adjusted to making her own decisions and running her house (or so she's portrayed), so yes, I feel comfortable pointing out her lack of confidence at that point.
ETA: Also, not one of her friends could take a moral high ground in the decision making department. Except for Xander. But he's never taken on a leadership position, so whatever was to be decided, he would eventually go along with it, even if he did bitch about it.
The only one who has to live under the same roof really is Dawn. And when she first accused Spike of killing people, she still thought it safe enough for him to stay under Xander's roof--her average Joe friend, and not with a Slayer and a powerful witch who could keep Spike in line if need be. Also, Buffy is the head of Buffy's house (or she should be), so where exactly is it she would be taking him away to? If she wants to help him, her house is pretty much it.
You're the first one to point out how many things Buffy did wrong in season six. After the year she's had, can you blame her or anyone else for not having confidence in her decision-making skills?
Oh, I can't take the credit for being the first, and I'm sure I won't be the last. And we weren't talking about season six Buffy--this is season seven "I had an awesome epiphany half a year ago" Buffy--the upgraded version. She's older and has adjusted to making her own decisions and running her house (or so she's portrayed), so yes, I feel comfortable pointing out her lack of confidence at that point.
ETA: Also, not one of her friends could take a moral high ground in the decision making department. Except for Xander. But he's never taken on a leadership position, so whatever was to be decided, he would eventually go along with it, even if he did bitch about it.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Willow was also living there at the time, so it's not just Dawn. And Buffy thought it was safe for Spike to stay at Xander's because she didn't really believe he was killing people at first. Even when she confronts him about it, she doesn't have anything more than a suspicion, and Spike points out her total lack of proof (and his innocence is pretty convincing, since he doesn't even know he's killing people). It's not until he calls her to come to the house that she actually confirms that he is in fact killing people. It's actually kind of a nice change for Buffy to insist on not judging until she has proof, instead of just assuming Spike's doing something evil.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 01 2008 04:11 am #62Scarlet Ibis
Yeah, but Willow's grown, so she had the option to leave if she wanted to. So for those reasons, she doesn't count. Probably still wasn't paying any rent...
It's actually kind of a nice change for Buffy to insist on not judging until she has proof, instead of just assuming Spike's doing something evil.
She did think he was killing people--after she tails him, and loses him, she kicks him out of the bed at Xander's. Spike does point out she has no proof, and that's when she said she'll get some proof. She spoke with conviction. And yet...she still leaves him with her vulnerable friend Xander. Very contradictory. She was right, sure, but she did tell him that she knew he was killing before she had concrete evidence.
It's actually kind of a nice change for Buffy to insist on not judging until she has proof, instead of just assuming Spike's doing something evil.
She did think he was killing people--after she tails him, and loses him, she kicks him out of the bed at Xander's. Spike does point out she has no proof, and that's when she said she'll get some proof. She spoke with conviction. And yet...she still leaves him with her vulnerable friend Xander. Very contradictory. She was right, sure, but she did tell him that she knew he was killing before she had concrete evidence.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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I think the old Buffy would've staked him without proof, so I'm taking it as a sign of improvement. But I think we're drifting off the point here, which is that Buffy is bringing a known killer into her house, and her friends are understandably concerned. Maybe Buffy should've been more concerned earlier in the episode; maybe they all should've. I wouldn't have blamed Xander if he'd refused to stay alone with Spike when they suspected him of killing people, but he didn't. That doesn't mean Willow and Dawn can't be concerned about Spike staying with them once they've actually confirmed that Spike is killing people.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 02 2008 12:29 am #64Scarlet Ibis
I think the old Buffy would've staked him without proof, so I'm taking it as a sign of improvement.
I don't know...she never really tried to stake Spike before (cept that one time when he was invulnerable), and she didn't intend to stake Angel when she thought he was killing people (but it was really that Pete guy, I think his name was). So I don't really think it's an improvement since I don't think the "old" Buffy (whichever one you prefer) would have staked him either. Old Buffy may have did the whole "get out of my town" thing, maybe. *shrug*
Also, I wouldn't have blamed Xander for not letting Spike live there in the first place, let alone after they suspected he was killing people (especially if he was totally unaware, which makes him more dangerous). I don't doubt that Dawn, and okay, Willow can't be concerned, but still, the ultimate decision is Buffy's. But at the same time, this is the same person who got kicked out of her own house by a bunch of people who weren't paying the bills there, so really, when I think about it, it makes sense.
I don't know...she never really tried to stake Spike before (cept that one time when he was invulnerable), and she didn't intend to stake Angel when she thought he was killing people (but it was really that Pete guy, I think his name was). So I don't really think it's an improvement since I don't think the "old" Buffy (whichever one you prefer) would have staked him either. Old Buffy may have did the whole "get out of my town" thing, maybe. *shrug*
Also, I wouldn't have blamed Xander for not letting Spike live there in the first place, let alone after they suspected he was killing people (especially if he was totally unaware, which makes him more dangerous). I don't doubt that Dawn, and okay, Willow can't be concerned, but still, the ultimate decision is Buffy's. But at the same time, this is the same person who got kicked out of her own house by a bunch of people who weren't paying the bills there, so really, when I think about it, it makes sense.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nah, it didn't do it for me, either. Although that's more because epiphanies don't tend to last long in the Buffyverse than the particular content. Also, I wasn't really expecting any kind of epiphany about Spike at that point. I figured we'd have to wait until he came back to deal with those issues.
This "seeing through different eyes" left me very dissatisfied too - it seemed very weak after all the very dark season and all Buffy's serious problems - while Buffy and Dawn have had strong conflicts and big problems in their relationships - this epiphany does not connect much to, IMO, to the season. Buffy protecting Dawn and being her protector was not an especially strong part of season 6.
As much as Buffy-Dawn fighting and coming away from their would be grave did not connect with me, even more of a personal disappointment was how they chose to conclude the Dark Willow arc. DW being overcome by Xander and their childhood history and great friendship, while a wonderful "friends and XanMan moment," felt like a very weak ending to all that powerful hatred, anger and violence that consumed Willow. Plus, Willow wanting to end the world because of the suffering that humans experience through their emotions "better dead than in pain" felt like an "easy out" to advance the plot for destruction.
This "seeing through different eyes" left me very dissatisfied too - it seemed very weak after all the very dark season and all Buffy's serious problems - while Buffy and Dawn have had strong conflicts and big problems in their relationships - this epiphany does not connect much to, IMO, to the season. Buffy protecting Dawn and being her protector was not an especially strong part of season 6.
As much as Buffy-Dawn fighting and coming away from their would be grave did not connect with me, even more of a personal disappointment was how they chose to conclude the Dark Willow arc. DW being overcome by Xander and their childhood history and great friendship, while a wonderful "friends and XanMan moment," felt like a very weak ending to all that powerful hatred, anger and violence that consumed Willow. Plus, Willow wanting to end the world because of the suffering that humans experience through their emotions "better dead than in pain" felt like an "easy out" to advance the plot for destruction.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
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