Okay, this is kind of a yes or no type of deal.  I constructed an open poll on my LJ to find out-- http://www.livejournal.com/poll/?id=1126960

Anyway, the past couple of months, I've started to watch Angel from the beginning, and I've come to love him in a special way.  But that's not the point.  I'm talking specifically about seasons one through three, and in regards to his relationship and interactions with Buffy.  I personally think that he's kinda exempt, considering his background, and the fact that Buffy and her people are pretty much the only steady human contact he's been with in oh say...ever.  It's all new to him.  On top of all that, he assumes that Buffy, champion that she is, would know what the right thing to do is.  Of course, later on he learns that no, she doesn't, but initially he's following her lead.  He doesn't know what "being cool" is (I think that's refernced in "School Hard", and then when he thinks that staying by her side is the thing to do, Joyce easily persuades him with a lot of valid points.  I think my point is, ramble that this post is, is that he was just as lost as Buffy was young.

Also, in regards to not killing the Master, or Dru or Spike, well, like it or not, they're still family.  He had a hard enough time killing Darla, and only did it because she forced his hand.  Had she not shown up at the Bronze for his and Buffy's showdown, he was ready to take the fall for his sire.  Angel was divided--between loyalty, and what is now deemed to be right for his soulled self.  He's been alone, no friends, and pushed away, essentially, by the family that he had for nearly a hundred and fifty years.

Yeah okay, I can probably produce something more coherent if someone responds to this--I've just seen a ton of Angel knocking on several different posts, and my brain went "hmm" for a moment.  Anyway, please take my poll, cause I'm way curious

Well, I already responded over there, but I don't think Angel's such a bad guy. He definitely makes some bad decisions, but so does pretty much everyone on the show, pretty much over and over.

If you're interested in a thought-provoking Angel character study, I recommend this one. The other essays are good, too.

I actually do like Angel. Not as much as I love Spike, but I do think he's a good and a bit flaw character, but what character isn't in BTVS/ATS? But I came to like him more when he was away from Buffy because I think he grew more as a person when he was away from her.

Above was me, forgot to log in.

I actually like Angel.  Sure, he didn't always make the best choices, but he was never that bad to me.  It's just that you read enough fan fiction where he's the evil jerk, and you start to believe it.  I actually prefer it when he's a decent guy in fictions.

Angel's great!

Just not with Buffy.

Coquine

I love Angel. I got to know him on his own show in the first place, except for a few reruns before of BTVS Season 3, so I've always liked him and empathized with him. The bashing really gets on my nerves. I've just re-watched Seasons 1-3 of AtS, too, and there's so much that's quite endearing from our socially awkward souled vamp. And I'm a firm Cordy/Angel shipper.

CM

I read again the Jennifer Crusie "Dating Death: article in "Seven Season of Buffy - an excellent article on Buffy and her loves.

I am very glad that we are watching episodes and seeing the Angel-Buffy Love cycle again - with all the later season and reading of articles and fan fiction, it is good to go back to their story now.

Although it may seem that I don't care for Angel, I actually do like him, I just think that his choices with respect to Buffy were not particularly good ones. But I am applying judgements from my RL perspective, that is also not a particularly good point of view. Taking their love from the "unconditional love" interpretation, it can be seen as an existing on a very intense and high level of commitment and bonds between the couple. However, for me it is difficult to ignore the consequences of where that love took them.

One of the real difficulties about this relationship is that Buffy was shown with a very strong, realistic, and mature understanding of what it means to live as The Slayer.  the scene when she yells at Giles about his duties as a Watcher is a powerful and brutal depiction of what her life has been and will likely be.  Contrast that Slayer Buffy with Buffy young high school-er liking that Owen character , plus all the very young and girlish mannerism she displays, along with Willow, the viewer is presented with two very different faces.  With Angel and their eventual path, are the viewers primarily to see Buffy the strong and mature Slayer?  I don't know, it is a difficult question and a very complex relationship.  Ultimately, no matter what I think of Love and the mythic and human  constructs of a relationship, that question of Faith and the actions Buffy chooses is not something that I can let go of.   The Unconditional Love is the ultimate expression of giving oneself over completely to another being come what may - in the abstract the unconditional Love for man, and the even higher level of unconditional love of the spiritual & intellectual realms, are beautiful and wondrous things but the underside of that level of total giving over of the self can also bring very ugly things with it. 

 

I actually like Angel in his own series and have watched it on TNT when on.  I just don't like him with Buffy...he is so much better with Cordy and I definitely am an Angel/Cordy shipper in that respect.  There was an episode in which he and Wesley were dancing in the credits that had me laughing and it endeared him to me for some reason.  Being able to humiliate yourself in public is a definite sign of courage in the face of derision...He has his faults but we all do and he just really made some bad choices. 

Kimmy

I've said it before, but I like Angel. I liked him since day one, and just like all the characters he has his flaws too. But I think that's what makes him the more like able. I used to be all for him and Buffy, but when he decided to leave her for her own "good" that's what made me realize that they were not ment for each other.

Angel as a whole, I like him. He had layers and I enjoyed finding more out about him, his family life before and after being vamped and how he enteracted with them. I felt bad when he was cursed with the soul, I think I even teared up a bit. The only problem I have with him is really with the Power's that Be. I don't understand, can't wrap my mind around the fact that they would make a vampire who was CURSED with his soul a Champion. I don't get that. And Spike, who went and fought for his, they leave high and dry. Nope, can't get my mind around that. I think Angel is and always will be a lose cannon. He can go either way, soul or not. But then again, that's why I love him too. lol

Angel is not bad IMHO....flawed in major ways and in total denial over it (as are the Scoobies).  His motives aren't lilly pure either but he is well intentioned and striving for good.  As you wisely put it he is not used to this whole human thing.  He's spent a century AVOIDING humanity with his only "good deed" being a chance in diet.  He  stumbling about and learning as he goes.  He still isn't getting it right even in NFA.  I think the "Angel hate" is more a reaction from people having "Angel is good, Spike is evil" shoved down our throats.  His laws are covered up and Spike's held under a spotlight.  Basically I found him bland and insipid  (and terribly childish) on Buffy but LOVED him on Angel where he actually grew and was more honest about his nature.

Kathleen

Angel the Series was like the Buffyerse but with the combination of myths in a Jungian dreamscape - I still think of Angel going for the kill of the dragon in his war with his inner demons -

I liked him on Angel when he was allowed to grow as his own person. I found on Buffy, when he was with Buffy, both of them never really saw each other. They loved each other, but I found that they loved the idealized image of each other that they had. I don't think either of them really knew the other person.

With Cordelia, Cordelia knew every aspect of him and she understood him better than Buffy ever did. Cordelia accepted all parts of him, and she didn't put him of a pedestal. Angel did things for Cordelia that he would never have done for Buffy, and I don't mean life sacrifices and such. I meant normal, every day things. I really feel if the writer's had handled the Cordelia/Angel storyline better it could have got a more positive reception.

I also find that a lot of Spuffy fans are better about Angel than the Bangels are about Spike.

Well well--though an abundance of people haven't taken the poll, so far, I am in the minority.  The majority seem to go with the notion that Angel took advantage of Buffy (which, I really don't get, considering all the times he told her no, and how many times he tried not to take her out...), coming second to they're both equally guilty--either because it takes two, or mentally, Angel was the same age as her.

I agree that Cordelia knew and understood him way better (which is part of the reason season four of Angel hurt so bad), and Angel attempted to be a normal, human guy for her--fixing her breakfast and eating food, for instance.  Cordelia totally domesticated him.

I think Tammy brings up a good point--bastardized versions of Angel in fan fic can tip the scales.  I honestly don't recall my full opinion of Angel before rewatching eps these past couple of months...But I <3 him now (in a totally different way that I <3 Spike).

And if those Bangel fans are hardcore Angel fans underneath, season five of Angel must've been damn tough for them to watch (not that I care, cause it was awesome for me!)  Anyway, I can't think of a logical reason why the Bangels would hate Spike so much.  Why not Riley?  She did, after all, treat him way nicer.  Or is he just not that important?

*scratches head* thought I'd be original, but then I read what Scarlet said in her last post and, well *shrugs*, totally what I was thinking of and so much better expressed!

xxx

I love Angel on his show, and he's not bad for most of his time on Buffy.  But at the same time, I hate them together.  I also hate that Buffy has this tendency to...I don't know, absorb the energy from a guy?  Because her viewpoint tends to be so centered on herself, she seems to have the effect on men that they have difficulty being their own person.  With Angel, that would be his knowing that he had to hoof it out of there so they could both grow up--well, Buffy growing up, and Angel growing more comfortable with his humanity.  Also (and I hate to say this) I can see it with Riley, too, and how he felt compelled to do things he found disgusting and hurtful to himself, from a need for attention or petulance or because he felt useless or whatever. Finally, I can see it with Spike after he went to get his soul.  He finally saw that there was a "me" in the whole thing, and so he tried to hold Buffy at arm's length for the majority of season seven.  And call me Dru, but I think the real reason Spike stayed away from Buffy in season five of Angel was that he found he liked being his own man.

Which is all very off-topic.  Sorry.  But, yay Angel!  I'm really glad that I started watching the show, because I finally got over my whole kick-the-Angel schtick.

Sotia, I think Lindsay just expressed it even better

I agree with all of the above.  Furthermore, Spike was starting to have fun again in s5 of Angel (let's not forget the actual friends, or the abundance of cars as well).

Really, Angel's not bad. Just... annoying, really. IMO, he was two stiff and restricted when he was with Buffy. He seemed more - free, more like an actual person, especially in season four of Angel. Cordy's influence, maybe?

I think a lot of the difference (from a meta point of view) is that Angel went from being a supporting character to the main character. On BtVS, particularly in the early seasons when all the characters were fairly stereotypical, Angel had one role to play - star-crossed lover, meant to provide dramatic tension with the heroine at every turn. That doesn't leave much room for comic relief, and besides, they had other characters for that.

But you can't have a main character who takes himself too seriously and broods all the time, or he'll bring down the tone of the entire show. Angel had to loosen up, become more well-rounded, in order to pull his weight as the lead.

From a character perspective, yes, Cordy was probably a good influence on him, helping him to not take himself so seriously, but also all the other characters helped to draw him out of his shell, to live in the world instead of distancing himself (like he did on BtVS).

Yep, Doyle started it right off the bat, and then he and Cordy had a great effect on Angel. And taking in Wesley showed how much softening they'd already done to Angel. He kind of tolerates Cordelia until after she gets the visions, and the pain she feels brings out his empathy. By the end of Season 1, the three of them are a little family of cast-offs.

CM

"...little family of cast-offs."


nice phrase -