BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
Spike as The Stalker
Spike as a stalker and obsessed with Buffy reflected both positive and negative aspects of his character - How did this face of Spike either help or hinder his love and development of the character? This is a carry over from the Spike dislike plot points thread.
As a vampire and predator, stalking is a natural and vital trait - stalking would have been a natural act for Spike. How did you view Spike as Stalker? How did his stalking effect his relationship with Buffy and how did his stalking effect other characters?
Simplified Encarta definition of stalker : stealthy pursuer or as a harasser (person who persistently and obsessively harasses somebody else with inappropriate attention.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 03 2008 07:19 pm #2Scarlet Ibis
The only time it was directly inappropriate was the hanging by her window while she was having sex thing. Excluding that, I think it was more lurking than stalking (lurk-- to be concealed but capable of being discovered. Let's face it, he often was discovered by someone). However, sometimes he did "stand about" 
Anyway, his showing up at inappropriate times usually was a service as opposed to a disservice for Buffy--the invisible demons that were holding Buffy down in the Magic Box, the Queller demon that jumped her...and it certainly didn't help things that Buffy kept going to the guy for help. "Spike--I need your help. We have to find such and such before such and such." Being dependent on someone and wanting them around (even if it is just for help) doesn't really give them the impression that you want them gone, or to stay away from you (I'm talking pre-tied up here). The only time she really told him to go away, was when she was patrolling alone, which I think had more to do with her whole "Slayer's alone" thing then really sending him away (if the not patrolling with her friends or boyfriend is any indication, cause she used to...).
Anyway, his showing up at inappropriate times usually was a service as opposed to a disservice for Buffy--the invisible demons that were holding Buffy down in the Magic Box, the Queller demon that jumped her...and it certainly didn't help things that Buffy kept going to the guy for help. "Spike--I need your help. We have to find such and such before such and such." Being dependent on someone and wanting them around (even if it is just for help) doesn't really give them the impression that you want them gone, or to stay away from you (I'm talking pre-tied up here). The only time she really told him to go away, was when she was patrolling alone, which I think had more to do with her whole "Slayer's alone" thing then really sending him away (if the not patrolling with her friends or boyfriend is any indication, cause she used to...).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Feb 03 2008 07:23 pm #3Guest
Guest
Spike was stalker-ish, but nowhere near what real stalkers do to torment their prey.
I consider it a moot point anyway after seeing his actions while buffy was dead btwn S5 and S6. If he was just a mere stalker, once the object of his obsession was dead, he wouldn't have stayed and taken care of Dawn.
I think that most of the "stalker" notions is just another of the massive angel/angelus baggage that just carried over to spike.
I consider it a moot point anyway after seeing his actions while buffy was dead btwn S5 and S6. If he was just a mere stalker, once the object of his obsession was dead, he wouldn't have stayed and taken care of Dawn.
I think that most of the "stalker" notions is just another of the massive angel/angelus baggage that just carried over to spike.
Feb 03 2008 07:50 pm #4Spikez_tart
I agree with Scarlet and Guest - a real stalker would have slashed her tires, broken her windows, left her nasty notes, sent her flowers with threats (Angel), threatened her friends (Angel), attempted to injure her (Angel). Stealing her clothes and her underwear is stalkerish, but mostly Spike is obsessing, lurking and buying Buffy boxes of candy that he beats up and ends up sharing with Dawn. Love sick, but not stalking.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
The only time it was directly inappropriate was the hanging by her window while she was having sex thing.
I'm gonna have to say that breaking into her house was inappropriate, even if it meant that he was conveniently around to help her out once or twice. Stealing stuff from her room was inappropriate. In the previous thread, you mentioned Willow having a t-shirt of Xander's or something. Fine, but I highly doubt that Willow ever broke into Xander's room without his knowledge and stole his clothes. More than likely, she borrowed something from him and never gave it back, or he left something at her house and never asked for it back. If Buffy had accidentally left something at Spike's crypt and he kept it, that'd be one thing, but to break into her house, root through her personal belongings, and take things without her knowledge or permission is way beyond the realm of appropriate behavior. In fact, it's a crime. And, as many people mentioned in the other thread, having a robot version of her built was also extremely inappropriate.
What's with the intense desire to make Spike's obsessive actions acceptable? The fact is, whether we love him or not, he's a vampire, sometimes he does bad shit. In fact, it's more remarkable that occasionally he doesn't commit crimes or act inappropriately. Call it stalking, call it obsession, call it whatever you want, but Spike's not a saint. Nowhere close. I think it's okay to admit that some of the stuff he did in pursuit of Buffy was completely unacceptable by human standards.
If he was just a mere stalker, once the object of his obsession was dead, he wouldn't have stayed and taken care of Dawn.
No one's suggesting he was a "mere stalker" - it's obvious that his stalking is rooted in his feelings for Buffy. He does what he does because he doesn't know (or doesn't care about) the lines he's crossing in order to express his feelings. That's what makes the end of "Intervention" so important. Buffy shows him proper behavior - he's like a child with positive and negative reinforcement. He built a robot, and it was taken away from him. He protected Dawn, and he was rewarded with a kiss. It's a turning point in their relationship, because Spike now understands the right way to get to Buffy, and Buffy realizes that he is capable of it.
sent her flowers with threats (Angel), threatened her friends (Angel), attempted to injure her (Angel).
Uh, I think you're confusing Angel and Angelus, here. Regardless of how you feel about the soul issue, Angel never did those things when he was in love with Buffy. He only did those things when he was deliberately trying to hurt her. Not exactly the same thing as either Spike or Angel with a soul.
I'm gonna have to say that breaking into her house was inappropriate, even if it meant that he was conveniently around to help her out once or twice. Stealing stuff from her room was inappropriate. In the previous thread, you mentioned Willow having a t-shirt of Xander's or something. Fine, but I highly doubt that Willow ever broke into Xander's room without his knowledge and stole his clothes. More than likely, she borrowed something from him and never gave it back, or he left something at her house and never asked for it back. If Buffy had accidentally left something at Spike's crypt and he kept it, that'd be one thing, but to break into her house, root through her personal belongings, and take things without her knowledge or permission is way beyond the realm of appropriate behavior. In fact, it's a crime. And, as many people mentioned in the other thread, having a robot version of her built was also extremely inappropriate.
What's with the intense desire to make Spike's obsessive actions acceptable? The fact is, whether we love him or not, he's a vampire, sometimes he does bad shit. In fact, it's more remarkable that occasionally he doesn't commit crimes or act inappropriately. Call it stalking, call it obsession, call it whatever you want, but Spike's not a saint. Nowhere close. I think it's okay to admit that some of the stuff he did in pursuit of Buffy was completely unacceptable by human standards.
If he was just a mere stalker, once the object of his obsession was dead, he wouldn't have stayed and taken care of Dawn.
No one's suggesting he was a "mere stalker" - it's obvious that his stalking is rooted in his feelings for Buffy. He does what he does because he doesn't know (or doesn't care about) the lines he's crossing in order to express his feelings. That's what makes the end of "Intervention" so important. Buffy shows him proper behavior - he's like a child with positive and negative reinforcement. He built a robot, and it was taken away from him. He protected Dawn, and he was rewarded with a kiss. It's a turning point in their relationship, because Spike now understands the right way to get to Buffy, and Buffy realizes that he is capable of it.
sent her flowers with threats (Angel), threatened her friends (Angel), attempted to injure her (Angel).
Uh, I think you're confusing Angel and Angelus, here. Regardless of how you feel about the soul issue, Angel never did those things when he was in love with Buffy. He only did those things when he was deliberately trying to hurt her. Not exactly the same thing as either Spike or Angel with a soul.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 03 2008 08:52 pm #6Scarlet Ibis
I don't think any of us is saying Spike's a saint (at least, I'm not), but I do agree with Guest that it wasn't that extreme. Also, is it really breaking and entering when he has an invite and the door's always unlocked? Invasion of privacy when he goes to her room, sure. But Buffy's aware, by at least "Into the Woods," that Spike comes in her house from time to time to steal things, and she just rolls her eyes in irritation. Doesn't chastise him or anything. Granted she's distracted from the subject seconds later, but she doesn't address it later. Or in "No Place Like Home," right after Spike's botched plan to remove his chip, Buffy catches him outside her house, but doesn't demand that he never come back or anything--just asks what's he doing. Didn't revoke his invitation or anything. He's not completely innocent, yeah, but it's give and take here. If she didn't want him around, then she could've said so then, and taken away his invitation. She only does when he's finally decent to her. The other thread's closed, but I thought I should put this here:
Well, when he does try the whole "perfect gentleman" thing, he pretty much gets his hand slapped for his efforts. In "Crush, before the whole Drusilla debacle, he ditches all of the black clothing and fell into the Gap, tries to be amicable with her friends, which he's rebuffed for, keeps Dawn safe, albeit in his crypt, but safe (which he also gets scolded for), has a pleasant visit with Dawn and Joyce, and then, Buffy gets all wigged when he holds open a door. None of this works. So, later in the same ep, he switches tactics, drastically, to get her attention. I'm sure if Buffy had said "thanks," and just kept on walking, not putting too much thought behind it, then the whole chained to the wall thing probably wouldn't have happened.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Scarlet Ibis -
Thanks for adding the post from other thread -
My primary objection to Spike as a stalker is not of a general character flaw, but more with how this was used in "Listening to Fear" - Frankly, all the stalking that Spike does is, part of his established character , "evil vampire here," and adds much to the Spike plots and gives the character opportunities to learn lessons of acceptable human behavior - I just think that the stealing panties in this particular episode's timeline was not something that the character would not have done. Entering Buffy's bedroom to show show her Riley's vamp whore visit, totally in character - stealing her sweater for his shrine and images, same thing. Stealing yes, lurky and inappropriate, yes, but also perfect for where Spike was at this time in the series.
Good point, also on how any attempts at acting like a normal male or normal social courtesy was always rewarded with disdain or ridicule by Buffy and the inner circle of Scoobies.
Thanks for adding the post from other thread -
My primary objection to Spike as a stalker is not of a general character flaw, but more with how this was used in "Listening to Fear" - Frankly, all the stalking that Spike does is, part of his established character , "evil vampire here," and adds much to the Spike plots and gives the character opportunities to learn lessons of acceptable human behavior - I just think that the stealing panties in this particular episode's timeline was not something that the character would not have done. Entering Buffy's bedroom to show show her Riley's vamp whore visit, totally in character - stealing her sweater for his shrine and images, same thing. Stealing yes, lurky and inappropriate, yes, but also perfect for where Spike was at this time in the series.
Good point, also on how any attempts at acting like a normal male or normal social courtesy was always rewarded with disdain or ridicule by Buffy and the inner circle of Scoobies.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Also, is it really breaking and entering when he has an invite and the door's always unlocked?
No, but it's still stealing when he takes her stuff.
If someone walked into your house - even if you left the door unlocked - went through your stuff, and took your personal items without your knowledge or permission, would that be acceptable to you? Even if it was a good friend (which I don't think we can really say Spike is - he's more of a helpful acquaintance at that point). I certainly wouldn't find that okay. I might assume it was partly my own fault for leaving the door unlocked, but someone who doesn't respect my privacy, even with that temptation, is really no better than a burglar.
You're right that Buffy should've said something - but remember what she was going through at the time. Her entire world had been turned upside down by the knowledge that Dawn wasn't real, that there was a hell god after her, and on top of that her mother is sick, and her life is falling apart. I really don't think Spike is her top priority at that point. She found him lurking around, and once caught him with pictures - on its own, that's pretty insignificant compared to the other things she's going through. But I don't think the fact that she didn't say anything means that it's acceptable behavior, by any standard. We could see how horrified she was by the shrine, which was full of things he'd stolen - if she'd fully realized what he was doing, I'm sure she would've put a stop to it.
Remember, she didn't realize Spike was in love with her until Dawn pointed it out. Even if she thought Spike's behavior was weird, he didn't seem obsessive or stalkerish to her, because she was missing the emotional component of his feelings for her. She didn't put it all together until "Crush."
I'm sure if Buffy had said "thanks," and just kept on walking, not putting too much thought behind it, then the whole chained to the wall thing probably wouldn't have happened.
Well, true, but it's a little more complicated than "Spike tried to be chivalrous and it didn't work, so he chained her up." If she'd said "thanks" and kept walking, then they never would've had the conversation in which Spike confessed his love for her. He chained her up because she refused to acknowledge his feelings in that conversation, not because she refused to walk through the door he held open.
And it wasn't the gentlemanly act that creeped her out - it was the idea that he was in love with her at all. No matter how Spike had acted after her conversation with Dawn, Buffy would've found Spike disturbing. And with fairly good reason, too - she's suddenly realized that all those times she caught him lurking around or in the house, it was because he was obsessed with her. All the things he was pilfering from her were going into his shrine.
No, but it's still stealing when he takes her stuff.
If someone walked into your house - even if you left the door unlocked - went through your stuff, and took your personal items without your knowledge or permission, would that be acceptable to you? Even if it was a good friend (which I don't think we can really say Spike is - he's more of a helpful acquaintance at that point). I certainly wouldn't find that okay. I might assume it was partly my own fault for leaving the door unlocked, but someone who doesn't respect my privacy, even with that temptation, is really no better than a burglar.
You're right that Buffy should've said something - but remember what she was going through at the time. Her entire world had been turned upside down by the knowledge that Dawn wasn't real, that there was a hell god after her, and on top of that her mother is sick, and her life is falling apart. I really don't think Spike is her top priority at that point. She found him lurking around, and once caught him with pictures - on its own, that's pretty insignificant compared to the other things she's going through. But I don't think the fact that she didn't say anything means that it's acceptable behavior, by any standard. We could see how horrified she was by the shrine, which was full of things he'd stolen - if she'd fully realized what he was doing, I'm sure she would've put a stop to it.
Remember, she didn't realize Spike was in love with her until Dawn pointed it out. Even if she thought Spike's behavior was weird, he didn't seem obsessive or stalkerish to her, because she was missing the emotional component of his feelings for her. She didn't put it all together until "Crush."
I'm sure if Buffy had said "thanks," and just kept on walking, not putting too much thought behind it, then the whole chained to the wall thing probably wouldn't have happened.
Well, true, but it's a little more complicated than "Spike tried to be chivalrous and it didn't work, so he chained her up." If she'd said "thanks" and kept walking, then they never would've had the conversation in which Spike confessed his love for her. He chained her up because she refused to acknowledge his feelings in that conversation, not because she refused to walk through the door he held open.
And it wasn't the gentlemanly act that creeped her out - it was the idea that he was in love with her at all. No matter how Spike had acted after her conversation with Dawn, Buffy would've found Spike disturbing. And with fairly good reason, too - she's suddenly realized that all those times she caught him lurking around or in the house, it was because he was obsessed with her. All the things he was pilfering from her were going into his shrine.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 04 2008 01:07 am #9Scarlet Ibis
I think the chaining up was a culmination of things. What I meant was that he does try to do the whole chivalrous bit and helping out without wanting anything (well, besides her noticing him, and that he's changed), and none of it works. So yeah, he's still not on the up and up on what's acceptable, and does something where she's forced to notice him and to listen.
Oh, and my point was about revoking his invite...she doesn't do it till she knows he likes her, right? And big changes iIn her life were going on at the time of "Out of My Mind" as well. So, when he attempts to become a legitimate threat again, she doesn't put him in his place. She still uses him for help and so forth, and yada yada. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not consistent.
And if I was stupid enough to leave my doors unlocked to an aquaintance (cause let's face it, he wasn't a friend then), and my stuff got stolen, then I don't think I'd have the right to be all pouty and upset over it when I didn't remedy the problem in the first place.
Oh, and my point was about revoking his invite...she doesn't do it till she knows he likes her, right? And big changes iIn her life were going on at the time of "Out of My Mind" as well. So, when he attempts to become a legitimate threat again, she doesn't put him in his place. She still uses him for help and so forth, and yada yada. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not consistent.
And if I was stupid enough to leave my doors unlocked to an aquaintance (cause let's face it, he wasn't a friend then), and my stuff got stolen, then I don't think I'd have the right to be all pouty and upset over it when I didn't remedy the problem in the first place.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Feb 04 2008 03:06 am #10Spikez_tart
I think you're confusing Angel and Angelus - not really, I just don't think there's that much difference between the two of them. Angel was pretty creepy in the beginning of the show, following Buffy around, saying he was a friend, but not hers, not bothering to mention that he's a vampire. That's pretty stalkerish, too.
The chaining up thing wasn't stalking - it's kidnapping and possibly attempted second degree murder or at least manslaughter for letting Drusilla go after Buffy while she was chained up.
Holding a door or not isn't going to mean squat to Buffy - Spike's a serial killer! Not really boyfriend material. In real life, he never would be, no matter what he did or how much he straightened up later. Only a nut case would get involved with a Ted Bundy knowing what he was and what he'd done. And, yes, what was she thinking getting involved with Angel? He's even worse. Buffy's problem is she's thinking that there is something about her personality or character that is attracting murderers. I'd be worried, too.
The chaining up thing wasn't stalking - it's kidnapping and possibly attempted second degree murder or at least manslaughter for letting Drusilla go after Buffy while she was chained up.
Holding a door or not isn't going to mean squat to Buffy - Spike's a serial killer! Not really boyfriend material. In real life, he never would be, no matter what he did or how much he straightened up later. Only a nut case would get involved with a Ted Bundy knowing what he was and what he'd done. And, yes, what was she thinking getting involved with Angel? He's even worse. Buffy's problem is she's thinking that there is something about her personality or character that is attracting murderers. I'd be worried, too.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
What I meant was that he does try to do the whole chivalrous bit and helping out without wanting anything (well, besides her noticing him, and that he's changed), and none of it works.
I think the problem is that the chivalry comes after the lurking, after the sweater, picture, and panty-stealing, and after the eavesdropping on sex with Riley. Of course it doesn't work - he's already acted like a creep for months.
Oh, and my point was about revoking his invite...she doesn't do it till she knows he likes her, right?
I think that's a whole separate discussion, and one which we've had many times already. Yes, she should've logically revoked the invite after "Out of My Mind," and yes, it is inconsistent that she still goes to him for help afterwards. But that was because he was trying to become dangerous again, and tried to kill her, which is a completely separate issue from him being in love with her and being obsessive. Two completely different types of creepy, you might say.
And really - it's somewhat in character for Buffy. She's always been good at demons. Point her at something to kill and she's in her element. But trying to figure out relationships? She's completely at a loss. She's terrible at it, and she knows it. She has a warped sense of what attracts guys, and what drives them away, and so I can actually see why Spike being in love with her might really be more terrifying than Spike wanting to kill her. The latter is familiar - she knows how to deal with it. But him having feelings for her? That's a whole new realm of scary for Buffy.
I think the problem is that the chivalry comes after the lurking, after the sweater, picture, and panty-stealing, and after the eavesdropping on sex with Riley. Of course it doesn't work - he's already acted like a creep for months.
Oh, and my point was about revoking his invite...she doesn't do it till she knows he likes her, right?
I think that's a whole separate discussion, and one which we've had many times already. Yes, she should've logically revoked the invite after "Out of My Mind," and yes, it is inconsistent that she still goes to him for help afterwards. But that was because he was trying to become dangerous again, and tried to kill her, which is a completely separate issue from him being in love with her and being obsessive. Two completely different types of creepy, you might say.
And really - it's somewhat in character for Buffy. She's always been good at demons. Point her at something to kill and she's in her element. But trying to figure out relationships? She's completely at a loss. She's terrible at it, and she knows it. She has a warped sense of what attracts guys, and what drives them away, and so I can actually see why Spike being in love with her might really be more terrifying than Spike wanting to kill her. The latter is familiar - she knows how to deal with it. But him having feelings for her? That's a whole new realm of scary for Buffy.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 04 2008 04:21 am #12Scarlet Ibis
I think the problem is that the chivalry comes after the lurking, after the sweater, picture, and panty-stealing, and after the eavesdropping on sex with Riley. Of course it doesn't work - he's already acted like a creep for months.
That's all true, but no one knew about that. Well, Riley kind of, but he didn't say anything about it. So technically, that doesn't count until the point of which she's aware of that information.
The chaining up thing wasn't stalking - it's kidnapping and possibly attempted second degree murder or at least manslaughter for letting Drusilla go after Buffy while she was chained up.
And Spike didn't release Drusilla to attack Buffy--he just threatens to do it. Drusilla escapes her bonds while Spike's busy fighting Harmony, and then he stops Dru when she attacks Buffy.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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One thing with the dis-invite, stalking, and their relationship is that this is also when the theme of "human feelings" become associated with Spike. As long as Spike was separated and acknowledged as "strictly a vamp without human emotions" Buffy understands the structure of their relationship. There is no confusion about how to see Spike and have to consider him any way connected to real human emotions - Spike in Love however introduces big questions about his nature, reflects back on the Angel/Angelus disaster and capacity to experience and understand love. More than anything, that shrine would be something that would create fear and would be extremely disturbing - plus we also had her mother and Willow also feed into "Spike In Love" could become very dangerous. While Xander finds it hilarious and then explains it as "just a Spike thing," the women quickly see it as potential dangerous.
One thing that Spike stalking or lurking does allow is for his character to develop - We clearly see that his lurking and spying on Buffy and Riley leads to his understanding that while Riley's vamp biting is a huge factor in an eventual breakup of that couple - he also had a direct hand in causing Buffy great emotional distress. He did not completely understand how angry she would become, not just with Riley, all the vamps, but with the messenger as well.
One thing that Spike stalking or lurking does allow is for his character to develop - We clearly see that his lurking and spying on Buffy and Riley leads to his understanding that while Riley's vamp biting is a huge factor in an eventual breakup of that couple - he also had a direct hand in causing Buffy great emotional distress. He did not completely understand how angry she would become, not just with Riley, all the vamps, but with the messenger as well.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
So technically, that doesn't count until the point of which she's aware of that information.
Right. And she's made aware of it when Dawn tells her Spike's in love with her - which is before she comes home to see him chatting with Joyce and Dawn, before the stake-out, and before the door-holding. I'm sure if Dawn hadn't said anything, she probably wouldn't have given those things much thought, but now she's hyper-aware of everything Spike does, and reevaluating everything he's done in light of this new information.
One thing with the dis-invite, stalking, and their relationship is that this is also when the theme of "human feelings" become associated with Spike.
I don't know about that exactly. I don't think Buffy sees Spike as "in love" or having "human feelings" until "Intervention." That's really what scares her in "Crush" - in her mind, it's not love, the way normal humans have feelings for one another. If it was, she could let him down easy the way she does with normal guys (like Ben, for example). But with Spike, she sees only lust, vampire obsession, creepy and twisted emotion, all of which leads to danger. And yeah, that's most likely a hold-over from Angelus, and although Spike isn't nearly as bad as that, he does have a different view of how to love than most humans do, and it's only through trial and error that he figures it out.
Right. And she's made aware of it when Dawn tells her Spike's in love with her - which is before she comes home to see him chatting with Joyce and Dawn, before the stake-out, and before the door-holding. I'm sure if Dawn hadn't said anything, she probably wouldn't have given those things much thought, but now she's hyper-aware of everything Spike does, and reevaluating everything he's done in light of this new information.
One thing with the dis-invite, stalking, and their relationship is that this is also when the theme of "human feelings" become associated with Spike.
I don't know about that exactly. I don't think Buffy sees Spike as "in love" or having "human feelings" until "Intervention." That's really what scares her in "Crush" - in her mind, it's not love, the way normal humans have feelings for one another. If it was, she could let him down easy the way she does with normal guys (like Ben, for example). But with Spike, she sees only lust, vampire obsession, creepy and twisted emotion, all of which leads to danger. And yeah, that's most likely a hold-over from Angelus, and although Spike isn't nearly as bad as that, he does have a different view of how to love than most humans do, and it's only through trial and error that he figures it out.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 04 2008 07:56 am #15GoldenBuffy
He was a stalker, I really don't care. Yeah, for humans what he did was wrong, etc., etc. But he is a vampire, and like Scarpet pointed out in the Angel thread, he (Spike) hadn't been around humans in over 100+ years. And the humans he did hang around he ate. So it's not as if he'd willing go by our code of ethics. I don't care what he did, hanging out under her window, blending in with the shadows at night. Don't care, it's part of his nature, Angel's nature, a vampire's nature to do those things. If you're gonna love Spike then you have to take all that he's done, both the good and the bad. He's a bad, rude vamp. And I like him like that.
And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 04 2008 05:32 pm #16Guest
Guest
I think we need a clearer definition on the term "stalker" cause when I think stalker I think real life stalkers that torment and terrorize their victims (similar to what angelus did). While Spike's actions could be seen as approaching that, they never crossed that line. Plus, if his actions really bugged Buffy, then she would have at least gotten willow to do a disinvite spell.
Obsessed? Yeah.
Stalker? No
-DmD
Obsessed? Yeah.
Stalker? No
-DmD
Stalking is obsessively following or observing a person. Legally, I believe it has to include harassment and an invasion of privacy before the authorities can be involved. Either would apply to Spike's behavior. That and human morals/ethics aside I think something that is being overlooked is that vampires are predatory. Humans are first and foremost their food. His actions are very in line with predator-prey behaviors. Ever watch a cat hunt a mouse? Play with it? Is it stalking when a human hunter follows a deer through the woods? Stakes out its feeding ground? The fact Spike forced himself to be at least semi aware of Buffy's feelings or thoughts is rather remarkable. While it might have been distasteful for the audience it really wasn't out of character or even unexpected for Spike to do any of the things he did so its kind of a moot point, isn't it?
~ Q
Stalking is obsessively following or observing a person. Legally, I believe it has to include harassment and an invasion of privacy before the authorities can be involved. Either would apply to Spike's behavior. That and human morals/ethics aside I think something that is being overlooked is that vampires are predatory. Humans are first and foremost their food. His actions are very in line with predator-prey behaviors. Ever watch a cat hunt a mouse? Play with it? Is it stalking when a human hunter follows a deer through the woods? Stakes out its feeding ground? The fact Spike forced himself to be at least semi aware of Buffy's feelings or thoughts is rather remarkable. While it might have been distasteful for the audience it really wasn't out of character or even unexpected for Spike to do any of the things he did so its kind of a moot point, isn't it?
This was one of my main points for the discussion - Spike is a predator and stalking is a vital and basic to his life form - How was the viewer suppose to interpret this behavior, as Spike acting from his predatory instinct or as Spike, would be human in love, or are we seeing a combination of Vamp Spike/William? Was there a greater degree of influence from the vampire predator instinct or from his desires as vamp-in-love?
"One thing with the dis-invite, stalking, and their relationship is that this is also when the theme of "human feelings" become associated with Spike."
What I refer to in this idea is not that Buffy begins to see him as having human feelings, but the conflict and questions of how human feelings can be applied to Vamp Spike. Many of the viewers begin to question the dogma of vampires can have no real feelings from Spike falling in love with Buffy plus the Angel/Angelus mix for twisted love becomes part of the problem.
This was one of my main points for the discussion - Spike is a predator and stalking is a vital and basic to his life form - How was the viewer suppose to interpret this behavior, as Spike acting from his predatory instinct or as Spike, would be human in love, or are we seeing a combination of Vamp Spike/William? Was there a greater degree of influence from the vampire predator instinct or from his desires as vamp-in-love?
"One thing with the dis-invite, stalking, and their relationship is that this is also when the theme of "human feelings" become associated with Spike."
What I refer to in this idea is not that Buffy begins to see him as having human feelings, but the conflict and questions of how human feelings can be applied to Vamp Spike. Many of the viewers begin to question the dogma of vampires can have no real feelings from Spike falling in love with Buffy plus the Angel/Angelus mix for twisted love becomes part of the problem.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
While it might have been distasteful for the audience it really wasn't out of character or even unexpected for Spike to do any of the things he did so its kind of a moot point, isn't it?
I think there's been some question about whether certain aspects were out of character, but for me at least, I'm with you. While it is extremely inappropriate human behavior, I find it completely in character for Spike. I guess my perspective is that some fans seem to want to justify his actions as not inappropriate or distasteful, in order to make him more likable or suitable as a boyfriend. But he's a vampire, so I'm okay with him being inappropriate and distasteful.
What I refer to in this idea is not that Buffy begins to see him as having human feelings, but the conflict and questions of how human feelings can be applied to Vamp Spike.
I would think that the idea of vampires having human feelings was brought up (from the viewers' perspective) way back in season 2 when Spike and Drusilla were first introduced. They obviously love each other, so it's always seemed a little silly to claim that vampires need a soul to love - and even the Judge tells them they reek of humanity. And simultaneously with BtVS s5, we were also seeing that Angelus and Darla loved each other in AtS s2.
I can, however, understand why Angel as an individual might love Buffy with the soul and yet be obsessed with killing her without one - because for him personally, he's disgusted that Buffy made him feel human. He's disgusted that he wanted to be human. He's also acting out after having been forced to suppress his natural urges for a hundred years, which is enough to make anyone homicidal. The reason this dichotomy is limited to Angel is because he's the only vampire to ever be in this situation. Even Spike can't compare, because the circumstances surrounding his soul were very different. It wasn't that Angelus couldn't love without a soul - he did, he loved Darla for centuries. It's that he couldn't love Buffy because of the specific set of circumstances in which that love grew.
I think there's been some question about whether certain aspects were out of character, but for me at least, I'm with you. While it is extremely inappropriate human behavior, I find it completely in character for Spike. I guess my perspective is that some fans seem to want to justify his actions as not inappropriate or distasteful, in order to make him more likable or suitable as a boyfriend. But he's a vampire, so I'm okay with him being inappropriate and distasteful.
What I refer to in this idea is not that Buffy begins to see him as having human feelings, but the conflict and questions of how human feelings can be applied to Vamp Spike.
I would think that the idea of vampires having human feelings was brought up (from the viewers' perspective) way back in season 2 when Spike and Drusilla were first introduced. They obviously love each other, so it's always seemed a little silly to claim that vampires need a soul to love - and even the Judge tells them they reek of humanity. And simultaneously with BtVS s5, we were also seeing that Angelus and Darla loved each other in AtS s2.
I can, however, understand why Angel as an individual might love Buffy with the soul and yet be obsessed with killing her without one - because for him personally, he's disgusted that Buffy made him feel human. He's disgusted that he wanted to be human. He's also acting out after having been forced to suppress his natural urges for a hundred years, which is enough to make anyone homicidal. The reason this dichotomy is limited to Angel is because he's the only vampire to ever be in this situation. Even Spike can't compare, because the circumstances surrounding his soul were very different. It wasn't that Angelus couldn't love without a soul - he did, he loved Darla for centuries. It's that he couldn't love Buffy because of the specific set of circumstances in which that love grew.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 04 2008 08:25 pm #20Guest
Guest
While it is extremely inappropriate human behavior
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but Spike isn't human. So why is he being held to human standards of what is appropriate and what is not? No one explained to him what's proper and what's not in the human world when it comes to romance, so when he mucks it up by human rules, why is he punished more severely? There's the "oh, he's creepy," but no one really explains. At any rate, I think that is the justification--that he may somewhat get a pass simply because he is a vampire (who tries).
~J~
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but Spike isn't human. So why is he being held to human standards of what is appropriate and what is not? No one explained to him what's proper and what's not in the human world when it comes to romance, so when he mucks it up by human rules, why is he punished more severely? There's the "oh, he's creepy," but no one really explains. At any rate, I think that is the justification--that he may somewhat get a pass simply because he is a vampire (who tries).
~J~
So why is he being held to human standards of what is appropriate and what is not?
By whom? The characters or us? I don't think we are holding him to human standards - at least, I'm not. The very point of the paragraph you quoted from is that Spike's behavior is completely in character for him because he's a vampire. That doesn't make it any less creepy to Buffy. He's trying to engage in a relationship with a human, and for that to succeed, he needs to become part of the human world and learn to live by human rules. And that's not my requirement - it's Buffy's.
By whom? The characters or us? I don't think we are holding him to human standards - at least, I'm not. The very point of the paragraph you quoted from is that Spike's behavior is completely in character for him because he's a vampire. That doesn't make it any less creepy to Buffy. He's trying to engage in a relationship with a human, and for that to succeed, he needs to become part of the human world and learn to live by human rules. And that's not my requirement - it's Buffy's.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
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