BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
Buffy s8 Comic issue 11 *minimal spoiler*
I just wanted to say, for those who may be interested issue 11 holds the answer to the whole "kiss of true love" thing that came up in one of the earlier issues. I dont want to say who it is because i dont wanna be mean 
I thought that was pretty clear in issue #4. I know some people have expressed confusion or missed the clue, but I thought Scott Allie had explained that they weren't trying to be coy or mysterious about it - the answer was right there for us to find. It's not really still a mystery.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
i just meant the whole obvious unveiling and blatant dive in to the issue, not just the "tadaa" moment.
Anyways i enjoyed this issue.
Anyways i enjoyed this issue.
I am very interested to see where Joss takes this issue of Buffy's feelings of separation - and if her duties as The Primier Slayer will force her to accept, or require, this separation from the other slayers. Liked how the theme of all who have loved her have suffered for it -
What was that aside line about being a lesbian - not as you can see. I will have to check - I sincerely hope that another male lover, or female lover is not introduced into the season eight comics -
What was that aside line about being a lesbian - not as you can see. I will have to check - I sincerely hope that another male lover, or female lover is not introduced into the season eight comics -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
This issue was really good, I think the best so far. I'm not sure if Buffy knows Spike is back or not, but I'm glad he was finally mentioned.
I sincerely hope that another male lover, or female lover in introduced into the season eight comics
Really? I think you may be the only one. I've found that, regardless of ship, the fans whose opinions I've read seem to think that a character introduced in the comics will never feel as fleshed out as the characters who were created on the TV show (lacking the living, breathing person aspect of it), and therefore it'd be very difficult for any new comic character to have as much chemistry with Buffy (or anyone, really) as any of her love interests on the show.
Really? I think you may be the only one. I've found that, regardless of ship, the fans whose opinions I've read seem to think that a character introduced in the comics will never feel as fleshed out as the characters who were created on the TV show (lacking the living, breathing person aspect of it), and therefore it'd be very difficult for any new comic character to have as much chemistry with Buffy (or anyone, really) as any of her love interests on the show.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 10 2008 07:39 pm #7Guest
Guest
Agree with Eowyn. Joss himself admitted so:
Joss Whedon: The hard part about writing comics is creating juice. Let's say I'm trying to create a love interest for Buffy. People are like, "It's Angel!" "It's Spike!" Some people are saying it's Riley, possibly. Not many. I think that's above Andrew, actually, in the poll. But to create somebody in the comic who has anything like the juice of somebody who was on the show, that's an insane challenge. It's going to be really tough.
Joss Whedon: The hard part about writing comics is creating juice. Let's say I'm trying to create a love interest for Buffy. People are like, "It's Angel!" "It's Spike!" Some people are saying it's Riley, possibly. Not many. I think that's above Andrew, actually, in the poll. But to create somebody in the comic who has anything like the juice of somebody who was on the show, that's an insane challenge. It's going to be really tough.
Feb 10 2008 07:46 pm #9Scarlet Ibis
Hmm...tough, but not impossible. It's all about the pitch. I think Joss' problem more in lies with that the people reading it already have themselves invested in a guy who's already been there (like Angel or Spike), and not because the story is written as opposed to being acted out. I tell ya--if they brought someone new for Willow who wasn't Kennedy--guy or girl, I'd be thrilled.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
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OK, I know I'm too obsessed with Spuffy, but ewww to the thought of a new love interest and ewww squared to the possibility of Riley, Andrew, or Xander!
As a matter of fact, ewww to anyone but Spike! I guess I'll have to give up on the comics and stick to only reading Spuffy fanfiction if something like that arises.
xxx
As a matter of fact, ewww to anyone but Spike! I guess I'll have to give up on the comics and stick to only reading Spuffy fanfiction if something like that arises.
xxx
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Feb 10 2008 07:50 pm #11Scarlet Ibis
You can pretty much count on that, Sotia. If you want Spuffy goodness, stick with fan fic 
Anyway, Spike's in the Angel comics, and trapped in Hell A with Angel, and who knows who they'll put him with?
Anyway, Spike's in the Angel comics, and trapped in Hell A with Angel, and who knows who they'll put him with?"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Uh, no-one? Brian said we shouldn't get invested in 'ships for Angel: After the Fall, because he won't be focusing on them. (And thank God for that.)
Thanks Enisy *sighs with relief* and Scarlet I know they'll have to pair her with someone and that it's not gonna be Spike (I don't know about the rest of you, but I got the impression from the latest Buffy comic that she still doesn't know he's alive -- could be me being blond) but I don't think I can stomach anyone else.
I mean I know she's too young to be a hermit, but still... *keeps fingers crossed* LOL
xxx
I mean I know she's too young to be a hermit, but still... *keeps fingers crossed* LOL
xxx
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
I'm thinking we'll get Xander/Buffy for a season or two, but I wouldn't really worry about it. Joss has said in interviews that he's aware his fandom is split pretty much 50%-50% between Angel/Buffy and Spike/Buffy 'shippers (not quite, considering Spike/Buffy has 203 LJ comms interested in it to Angel/Buffy's 56, and 471 LJ users to Angel/Buffy's 182, but it's still a positive comment for us).
I tell ya--if they brought someone new for Willow who wasn't Kennedy--guy or girl, I'd be thrilled.
Oh, me too, but I think that's more a reflection on Kennedy than the "juice," to use Joss' word, of a comic character. I might like a comic love interest more than Kennedy (wouldn't take much), but I'd be hard-pressed to find someone I think suits Willow as well as either Oz or Tara.
Brian said we shouldn't get invested in 'ships for Angel: After the Fall, because he won't be focusing on them.
He did say that... but he also said that Angel and Spike were gonna kiss in issue #3. I think Brian's a dirty liar.
(That's humor, btw.)
I'm thinking we'll get Xander/Buffy for a season or two, but I wouldn't really worry about it.
You still think that's gonna happen? I know there was speculation in the beginning, but Xander and Renee seem to have a thing going right now. Of course, forty issues is a long time, so maybe Bander will happen later, but I think he'll want to spend some time exploring the X/R relationship before splitting them up. Also, as a sidenote on the "juice" in that relationship - Xander/Renee doesn't bother me, since I was never invested in any Xander pairing on the show, but I definitely don't feel like Renee is as... well, I'd say 3-dimensional, no pun intended... as the significant others we saw on the show. It's just a lot harder to see her as a developed character - I'm not looking for, like, seven seasons on the show worth of development, but at least the extent that Oz, Riley, Anya, and Tara were developed before getting into relationships with the gang.
I can't remember who said it, but someone in reviewing issue #11 suggested that Buffy may fall into a relationship with Satsu, purely out of loneliness. I don't really see Buffy showing any indication that she's a lesbian, but I would imagine that she's quite comfortable with homosexuality after all these years with Willow. So, while she might not be attracted to Satsu, she wouldn't find the idea repulsive, and could find a measure of comfort in being loved, even if she doesn't love back. Obviously, they're going somewhere with it, otherwise they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of Satsu being in love with Buffy, so that's one option of where it might go.
Oh, me too, but I think that's more a reflection on Kennedy than the "juice," to use Joss' word, of a comic character. I might like a comic love interest more than Kennedy (wouldn't take much), but I'd be hard-pressed to find someone I think suits Willow as well as either Oz or Tara.
Brian said we shouldn't get invested in 'ships for Angel: After the Fall, because he won't be focusing on them.
He did say that... but he also said that Angel and Spike were gonna kiss in issue #3. I think Brian's a dirty liar.
(That's humor, btw.)
I'm thinking we'll get Xander/Buffy for a season or two, but I wouldn't really worry about it.
You still think that's gonna happen? I know there was speculation in the beginning, but Xander and Renee seem to have a thing going right now. Of course, forty issues is a long time, so maybe Bander will happen later, but I think he'll want to spend some time exploring the X/R relationship before splitting them up. Also, as a sidenote on the "juice" in that relationship - Xander/Renee doesn't bother me, since I was never invested in any Xander pairing on the show, but I definitely don't feel like Renee is as... well, I'd say 3-dimensional, no pun intended... as the significant others we saw on the show. It's just a lot harder to see her as a developed character - I'm not looking for, like, seven seasons on the show worth of development, but at least the extent that Oz, Riley, Anya, and Tara were developed before getting into relationships with the gang.
I can't remember who said it, but someone in reviewing issue #11 suggested that Buffy may fall into a relationship with Satsu, purely out of loneliness. I don't really see Buffy showing any indication that she's a lesbian, but I would imagine that she's quite comfortable with homosexuality after all these years with Willow. So, while she might not be attracted to Satsu, she wouldn't find the idea repulsive, and could find a measure of comfort in being loved, even if she doesn't love back. Obviously, they're going somewhere with it, otherwise they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of Satsu being in love with Buffy, so that's one option of where it might go.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 11 2008 02:59 am #16Guest
Guest
I don't follow the comics, but this has my interest piqued. I don't suppose anyone has scanned or posted it online??
I thought I would scan the page that has Buffy and Satsu conversation -
What is wonderful is how Buffy acknowledges that she remembers what love feels like also that Angel, Riley, and Spike all loved her - So that now we can put aside the question of can Spike feel Love and if she has finally given that it credibility. But his theme of separation, being left by people who love her, and feeling disconnected is still a huge part of her emotional world.
My hope is that Season Eight will focus on what the consequences of changing the world via all the slayers that were created - Buffy takes full responsibility for that happening - while not something that she did alone, like the primo slayer and general that she became in Season Seven, she again is taking the responsibility on her shoulders.
And for the record, I made a bad typo error on my first post - I DO NOT want another love interest, just forgot to add the "no" in my post - bad me.
I personally don't think that Joss Whedon will get Buffy involved with another love interest, but it is most certainly suggested that Buffy is lonely and would very much like to share her life or feel connected on a deep level with someone.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong - but my interpretation of the Xander-Buffy exchange is that Buffy is very lonely and under emotional stress from some of the same issues from Season Seven -
Xander: It's always complicated with girls. That's why I need a man.
Buffy: No, the Willow thing is...it's complicated.
Buffy That would be nice.... (bubble that reads like a response, more like thinking to herself, to Xander's man coment)
What is wonderful is how Buffy acknowledges that she remembers what love feels like also that Angel, Riley, and Spike all loved her - So that now we can put aside the question of can Spike feel Love and if she has finally given that it credibility. But his theme of separation, being left by people who love her, and feeling disconnected is still a huge part of her emotional world.
My hope is that Season Eight will focus on what the consequences of changing the world via all the slayers that were created - Buffy takes full responsibility for that happening - while not something that she did alone, like the primo slayer and general that she became in Season Seven, she again is taking the responsibility on her shoulders.
And for the record, I made a bad typo error on my first post - I DO NOT want another love interest, just forgot to add the "no" in my post - bad me.
I personally don't think that Joss Whedon will get Buffy involved with another love interest, but it is most certainly suggested that Buffy is lonely and would very much like to share her life or feel connected on a deep level with someone.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong - but my interpretation of the Xander-Buffy exchange is that Buffy is very lonely and under emotional stress from some of the same issues from Season Seven -
Xander: It's always complicated with girls. That's why I need a man.
Buffy: No, the Willow thing is...it's complicated.
Buffy That would be nice.... (bubble that reads like a response, more like thinking to herself, to Xander's man coment)
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Didn't the conversation go like this?
Buffy: No, the Willow thing is...it's complicated.
Xander: It's always complicated with girls. That's why I need a man.
Buffy That would be nice....
Buffy likes to have the men in her live shag other men.
Buffy's insecurity when it comes to her loved ones leaving her is dealt with nicely in Beautiful Sunset. In Anywhere but Here, Willow confessed that she wanted to keep Kennedy away from Buffy so she won't get hurt. Angel, Riley and Spike all ended up hurt and left Buffy. Giles left Buffy to support Faith.
The only ones there for Buffy right now are Xander and Satsu, they're Buffy's closest friends now, the ones she opens up to.
Buffy: No, the Willow thing is...it's complicated.
Xander: It's always complicated with girls. That's why I need a man.
Buffy That would be nice....
Buffy likes to have the men in her live shag other men.
Buffy's insecurity when it comes to her loved ones leaving her is dealt with nicely in Beautiful Sunset. In Anywhere but Here, Willow confessed that she wanted to keep Kennedy away from Buffy so she won't get hurt. Angel, Riley and Spike all ended up hurt and left Buffy. Giles left Buffy to support Faith.
The only ones there for Buffy right now are Xander and Satsu, they're Buffy's closest friends now, the ones she opens up to.
maybe I got my bubbles all wrong - frankly, as I am not used to reading comics, it takes me a while to figure out how to read the text sequence -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Buffy likes to have the men in her live shag other men.
That brings me back to the oil wrestling quote from Buffy in Chosen about Spike and Angel and the threesome dream from an earlier issue in the comics.
That brings me back to the oil wrestling quote from Buffy in Chosen about Spike and Angel and the threesome dream from an earlier issue in the comics.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."
-Dag Hammersjold
-Dag Hammersjold
Just saw a peek from issue 12, and Buffy and Satsu......
*
*
*
*
are in bed.
Teen boys everywhere rejoice. ::eyeroll::
*
*
*
*
are in bed.
Teen boys everywhere rejoice. ::eyeroll::
What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Mar 05 2008 06:13 pm #22pfeifferpack
Here is the NYTimes article with the spoiler and Joss' comments on this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/books/05buffy.html?_r=2&ref=arts&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
I've posted my reaction on my LJ and it's waaaaay too long for here but feel free to drop by and read/comment/yell at me for being wrong...whatever:
http://pfeifferpack.livejournal.com/254854.html#cutid1
I think since they made it that Satsu is the one who gave the kiss of true love I kinda get the "You're just convenient" vibe from Buffy and I don't like what that says of her character. I also don't like Joss saying Willow would have a "funny" reaction (ie jealous)...I think that's not kind to Buffy OR Willow (or that yucky Kennedy either *G*).
Sigh....... Loves me some fanfic is all I have to say!
Kathleen
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/books/05buffy.html?_r=2&ref=arts&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
I've posted my reaction on my LJ and it's waaaaay too long for here but feel free to drop by and read/comment/yell at me for being wrong...whatever:
http://pfeifferpack.livejournal.com/254854.html#cutid1
I think since they made it that Satsu is the one who gave the kiss of true love I kinda get the "You're just convenient" vibe from Buffy and I don't like what that says of her character. I also don't like Joss saying Willow would have a "funny" reaction (ie jealous)...I think that's not kind to Buffy OR Willow (or that yucky Kennedy either *G*).
Sigh....... Loves me some fanfic is all I have to say!
Kathleen
not at all surprise, we had the previous lines "not as you can see" and we also have, what I thought was a very strange panel, which did remind me of Buffy and Spike, how Buffy kicks Satsu into the vamps - reminded me of "kick the Spike" and also the "get it done" call to action from Season 7 -
Presenting this theme with the I am lonely and the Xander "I need a man" lines you just knew that something was going to come up - and of course, the sexual triangle page still brings in her history -
Will see everyone later tonight the comic is out today - my comic book store always puts at least 2 copies away for me -
I also have a very good high res scan of the Spike & Dru cover - should I post that at one of my sites? anyone interested in having the image?
Presenting this theme with the I am lonely and the Xander "I need a man" lines you just knew that something was going to come up - and of course, the sexual triangle page still brings in her history -
Will see everyone later tonight the comic is out today - my comic book store always puts at least 2 copies away for me -
I also have a very good high res scan of the Spike & Dru cover - should I post that at one of my sites? anyone interested in having the image?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 05 2008 10:58 pm #24slaymesoftly
Moderator
When wondering where Joss is going to go, I think it's important to remember that he doesn't seem to believe in long-term relationships of any sort. Sometimes they break-up, mostly one of them dies, but he just doesn't believe in happy ever afters. And I don't think he's at all invested in any particular 'ships - he's all about his story arcs and the lovers will come and go as he sees fit. I think he is mildly invested in Angel - as a character - and that may explain his 50/50 remark, but he doesn't really care about relationships the way we do. He's willing to explore them, but not committed to making it work out for any one particular pair.
Buffy is young and healthy, and, particularly if she thinks Spike and Angel are dead or evil, she shouldn't be condemned for looking into other relationships. I just tell myself she won't get emotionally involved because her heart belongs to Spike, but I don't begrudge her a little solace and/or hanky panky if she needs it.
Buffy is young and healthy, and, particularly if she thinks Spike and Angel are dead or evil, she shouldn't be condemned for looking into other relationships. I just tell myself she won't get emotionally involved because her heart belongs to Spike, but I don't begrudge her a little solace and/or hanky panky if she needs it.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Mar 06 2008 12:22 am #25Guest
Guest
But she uses a girl that supposedly loves her, for sex. And she's her boss. There are definite ethical wrongs with her sleeping with Satsu. If it was going to be an actual relationship, and she's lonely as hell, then okay.......but it's not. And that means Buffy hasn't grown up at all because she's still all me, me, me.
Joss Whedon on Buffy:
She’s young and experimenting, and did I mention open-minded?”
Open-minded? not the Buffy I remember - anyone else see Buffy as "open-minded" in the series?
Got my copy today - looking forward to the Drew Goddard arc - like what happens to Buffy on this sexual encounter.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
nICE post -
I've posted my reaction on my LJ and it's waaaaay too long for here but feel free to drop by and read/comment/yell at me for being wrong...whatever:
http://pfeifferpack.livejournal.com/254854.html#cutid1
I've posted my reaction on my LJ and it's waaaaay too long for here but feel free to drop by and read/comment/yell at me for being wrong...whatever:
http://pfeifferpack.livejournal.com/254854.html#cutid1
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 06 2008 01:43 am #28Scarlet Ibis
The more I think about it, the less surprised I am. In the last issue, Buffy was feeling lonely, out of place, and pitying herself. The next thing you know, she's sleeping with the person who's in love with her, but hey, it's A-ok cause she's just experimenting.
To be fair, haven't read it yet, but Joss says she's not gay, and that she's just experimenting, so I feel okay is assessing the situation in such a matter. Whatev.
To be fair, haven't read it yet, but Joss says she's not gay, and that she's just experimenting, so I feel okay is assessing the situation in such a matter. Whatev.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 06 2008 03:03 am #29Guest
Guest
I don't read the comics because I'm just afraid that they are just going to mix up all these characters I love. Which is why I just tend to stick with fanfiction.
Butt I will say this. I will be pissed if they made Buffy a lesbian or bi. There is no way that I can picture Buffy a lesbian or bi. Which is why I wouldn't read any Buffy being with another female in fanfcition. I mean look how she reacted when she found out Willow was a lesbian. Kept being all fidgety and kept calling her Will.
No offense to those are lesbians or bi. I just don't Buffy one at all. Ever. I see her as a strong female who needs a strong male.
Butt I will say this. I will be pissed if they made Buffy a lesbian or bi. There is no way that I can picture Buffy a lesbian or bi. Which is why I wouldn't read any Buffy being with another female in fanfcition. I mean look how she reacted when she found out Willow was a lesbian. Kept being all fidgety and kept calling her Will.
No offense to those are lesbians or bi. I just don't Buffy one at all. Ever. I see her as a strong female who needs a strong male.
Mar 06 2008 03:29 am #30Indigo Stevens
I tell ya--if they brought someone new for Willow who wasn't Kennedy--guy or girl, I'd be thrilled.
Bring back Oz!!!
One of us needs to write something along those lines--hopefully where Kennedy gets pummelled within an inch of her life. The Space Between was writing some Willow/Oz and said she had plans to reveal Kennedy's true nature and then kill her but she's not written anything for awhile--I'm wondering if her fibromyalgia worsened or if she just let go of the writing.
Bring back Oz!!!
One of us needs to write something along those lines--hopefully where Kennedy gets pummelled within an inch of her life. The Space Between was writing some Willow/Oz and said she had plans to reveal Kennedy's true nature and then kill her but she's not written anything for awhile--I'm wondering if her fibromyalgia worsened or if she just let go of the writing.
Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping... ...waiting... And though unwanted... ...unbidden... it will stir...open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have? Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank... Without passion, we'd be truly dead ~Angelus, BtVS Season 2, Passion episode
Mar 06 2008 03:31 am #31Guest
Guest
I haven't read the issue yet. My copy comes by snail mail, so it'll be a few days before I get it. I am surprised, yet kind of not surprised, at this development. To tell you the truth, when I was trying to figure out who kissed Buffy before it was revealed, I actually thought it was Willow who had kissed Buffy. Well, at least I got the gender right, but that's not hard considering that the only guy around was Xander 
I have a few initial reactions, in no particular order:
*Publicity stunt--a desperate attempt to attract more young male readers, who are typically the target audience of comic books. Get two girls in the sack; get pimply-faced boys to boost sales. It's funny that this should come out today 'cause, just yesterday, Husband asked me if the Willow/Tara relationship was about girl-on-girl action to attract more male viewers
*Huh? WTF? Huh?--To quote Giles, "Three excellent questions." I'm not one of those people who sees character's actions and goes on and on about something being out-of-character, especially if I can see a clear series of events to lead him or her to those actions. But, in this case, I just don't see it as being a logical progression. There hasn't been anything--and I mean anything--to lead me to believe that Buffy would take a visit to the other side of the fence, even for a quick dip in the pool, as Joss claims it to be.
*Deja vu--Buffy is lonely, feeling cut off from everyone else, has no one in whom to confide, and hops into bed with someone who's in love with her in order to dull the pain. Hmm...Didn't that already happen? I know we're supposed to reduce, recycle, and reuse; but since when does that apply to storylines?
I have no prejudice against one sexual preference or another. However, if Buffy’s just experimenting, then I suppose her sexuality isn’t the question. The question is this: Did Buffy learn nothing from using Spike? I thought she had, but if she’s just using Satsu to fill her emotional void, I suppose she hasn’t. Buffy has issues, but there are only so many times that one can watch a character repeat the same pattern without learning from her mistakes. Eventually, just as in real life, she has to start changing before her loyal supporters stop supporting.
As I said, I haven’t read the issue yet. I have no idea in which direction this new development will take our heroine. I’m sure it won’t be the beat-the-ever-loving-shit-out-of-her-bed-partner road. Perhaps she will just have yet another traumatic morning after, and they will both go their separate, living in the same castle, and working together ways. Maybe sleeping with Buffy will make Satsu turn evil; it’s happened before. Maybe Satsu is already evil, and falling in love with Buffy will turn her to the good side. That’s happened, too. In any case, whatever happens, is Joss’s decision. This is his canonical continuation of the series. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t raise an eyebrow, shrug my shoulders, and shake my head :huh:
Mar 06 2008 03:32 am #32Immortal Beloved
Damn! The guest post just above was me, IB.
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Mar 06 2008 03:40 am #33Scarlet Ibis
Being realistic here, but the only person Buffy could've ever been gay with was Faith (and not even presently--several years ago), and to have her sleep with another person who loves her just to use them for her own means (once again) lowers my opinion of her even more than season six--this just compounds it two times. But I guess Joss is just trying to point out that she's a user, and likes to pass the buck. At least, that's how it appears.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
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I see nothing wrong with being gay or bi, I love the Willow/Tara relationship, and I wouldn't mind something happening with Spike/Angel. On that note. I can't see Buffy at all being with another woman. Not only that, but Joss has to know that if it is another, I'm using the person for sex scenrio, than their opinion of Buffy is going to get lower. He might even loose sales from some of those people.
If it was one with her in a stable relationship with Satsu (not that I can see it happening) that scenrio might not happen, but still, I'm sure some of the more feverent Bangel fans will be protesting. It actually does come off as more of a publicty stunt to attract male readers.
If it was one with her in a stable relationship with Satsu (not that I can see it happening) that scenrio might not happen, but still, I'm sure some of the more feverent Bangel fans will be protesting. It actually does come off as more of a publicty stunt to attract male readers.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."
-Dag Hammersjold
-Dag Hammersjold
Mar 06 2008 05:48 am #35Guest
Guest
I don't see Buffy as a lesbian either. Not even with Faith. I see her relationship with Faith during season 3. Just having another slayer and being wild together. But not wild as in we are having sex. I will never consider Buffy a lesbian even if Joss has her become one.
I too think it is a publicity stunt. I mean how does this sound.
fan1- did you know that Buffy has sex with another woman in the comic?
fan2- What???????? You must be kidding.
fan1- Nope. I'm telling the truth. She has sex with another slayer.
Next day fan2 goes off to buy the comic. Just to see what is going on in the world of Buffy.
More people buying equals more money.
I don't buy that whole experiencing thing either. I really don't get that. I'm going to sleep with the same sex just to see how different it is. I'm not gay though. Nope. I'm just sorry that is just so stupid to me.
Joss sometimes does the most stupid things with his characters. I think the fans do a better of understanding the characters than he does. Which is why I just read fanfiction. I think the only way I will ever read the comics if I found out that Buffy and Spike ended up together. They are it for me and in my Buffy world they end up together. Knowing Joss though he probably won't say til the end of the comics if at all who these characters end up with. I don't need or want to read anything else but my Spuffy.
Sorry for my rant. Joss just makes me upset.
Since I don't read the comics. I don't know what is really going on. But from what I read. This girl she sleeps with is in love with her and Buffy just uses her. That makes me mad too. Buffy did not learn anything. Seriously.
But it doesn't make me dislike her character. It makes me dislike Joss. hehe....
I too think it is a publicity stunt. I mean how does this sound.
fan1- did you know that Buffy has sex with another woman in the comic?
fan2- What???????? You must be kidding.
fan1- Nope. I'm telling the truth. She has sex with another slayer.
Next day fan2 goes off to buy the comic. Just to see what is going on in the world of Buffy.
More people buying equals more money.
I don't buy that whole experiencing thing either. I really don't get that. I'm going to sleep with the same sex just to see how different it is. I'm not gay though. Nope. I'm just sorry that is just so stupid to me.
Joss sometimes does the most stupid things with his characters. I think the fans do a better of understanding the characters than he does. Which is why I just read fanfiction. I think the only way I will ever read the comics if I found out that Buffy and Spike ended up together. They are it for me and in my Buffy world they end up together. Knowing Joss though he probably won't say til the end of the comics if at all who these characters end up with. I don't need or want to read anything else but my Spuffy.
Sorry for my rant. Joss just makes me upset.
Since I don't read the comics. I don't know what is really going on. But from what I read. This girl she sleeps with is in love with her and Buffy just uses her. That makes me mad too. Buffy did not learn anything. Seriously.
But it doesn't make me dislike her character. It makes me dislike Joss. hehe....
I think will be surprised what comes out of this - there are some very interesting graphic used in this encounter with the clothes that get worn - It would not be at all surprised if some kind of mystical event comes from this, or a good life lesson - perhaps not for Buffy but maybe Dawn. Think that readers will remember that the previous issue has Buffy breaking down and crying from her memories of her former love affairs when she and Satsu are talking about love.
I really wish that Buffy could experience living without an attachment to anyone - as long as she has been in the series, has she ever learned to be without a romantic crutch? Guess Buffy is doing some Cookie Baking.
I for one am very much enjoying the comic season 8 - I like this young slayer, Renee, that Xander is trying to connect with,
So far we have seen Buffy dreaming of a triangle sexual experience, since both men are naked I am going with sex dream, with Angel and Spike and now we have her with going naked with Satsu -
I really wish that Buffy could experience living without an attachment to anyone - as long as she has been in the series, has she ever learned to be without a romantic crutch? Guess Buffy is doing some Cookie Baking.
I for one am very much enjoying the comic season 8 - I like this young slayer, Renee, that Xander is trying to connect with,
So far we have seen Buffy dreaming of a triangle sexual experience, since both men are naked I am going with sex dream, with Angel and Spike and now we have her with going naked with Satsu -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
What a sad statement on our society when Buffy Lesbo can create such a hullabaloo - I have not read any of the comments yet, but I think I will do a little reading just to check out what others are saying - IMO, it does make perfect sense in the story that has been told thus far - and it does fit Buffy's MO from the series - and cinnamon has been associated with aphrodisiacs - I thought it was typical Whedon style - foreshadowed by Buffy's awakening and saying cinnamon buns, which is exactly what she ends ups with, cinnamon being an consider a stimulant, plus Buffy tells Satsu in the hospital room that they will both heal, and frankly, sexual exploration and connecting with another person when you are feeling really down is very common. Was it bad to do it with someone that clearly loves you, yes, cause it will easily lead to some very bad place for the person doing the loving - what this feels like, is very similar to Spike and Anya trying to comfort each other. Readers just have to wait and see where this is going. One thing that Spuffy or followers of the Spike and Buffy relationship might find very sad, which I certainly did, but this is my perspective of interest, is the difference from this sexual encounter contrasted to all the violence created around the Spike Buffy Sexual encounter - Spike's love a love of such a grand scale, and what a pity that his love was always depicted with violence, even when he is giving himself up as a sacrifice, it is always surrounded by violence and brutality.
Since there may still be some members that plan to read the issue, I don't want to post anything that happens and spoil anything -
this "readers comments" has quickly turned into Religious Dogma vs Freedom of Life Style Choices -
I did like this post very much - so I thought I would share:
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Story?id=4396156&page=1
Since there may still be some members that plan to read the issue, I don't want to post anything that happens and spoil anything -
this "readers comments" has quickly turned into Religious Dogma vs Freedom of Life Style Choices -
I did like this post very much - so I thought I would share:
I wish SOMEONE could explain to me why religious people go into orbit every time there's a gay issue. We've got people dying in wars all over the world. We've got a planet that is slowly being poisoned by us. We've got people right here in the U.S. who go to bed hungry. We;ve got leaders who lie to us every time they open their mouths. And all the religious community can get excited about is a comic book with a couple of girls in a bed????? Take all that passion and energy and do something USEFUL with it. When you get to eternity, I think it's far more likely that God is going to look at you and ask, "How did you help?" than he/she is to give you a medal because you waved a sign saying "God hates ####." God doesn't hate ANYBODY.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Story?id=4396156&page=1
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
If you are interested in desktops from the comic series here is the link: http://www.darkhorse.com/zones/buffy/downloads.php
There are some really beautiful images here - even if you don't follow the comic series these are wonderful for your Buffyverse Image Collections-
There are some really beautiful images here - even if you don't follow the comic series these are wonderful for your Buffyverse Image Collections-
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
The religious people always hate things that are different from them. The really religious ones are the ones saying, 'We should love everyone' and then going around telling people that their going to hell. Probably why I'm not religious, cause I just don't understand how they can preach how their God loves and forgives everyone but yet has a place like hell. It doesn't make sense to send somebody you love to a place filled with burning fiery torture, which is why I never went to church with my family. Those kind of religious people pick and choose their bible passages. 'Thou shalt not kill.' Yeah, for that issue it depends on who's doing the killing and who's getting killed, because the same people protesting gay people are the same people supporting a war that's killing people that shouldn't have to die. They don't protest the big issues, like war, or murder, or opression by the government. No, they protest things like gay marriages and burning books with witchcraft in them like Harry Potter (which now has a gay character so they protest that to even though it wasn't mentioned in the books).
And now I'm getting off my little rant.
And now I'm getting off my little rant.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."
-Dag Hammersjold
-Dag Hammersjold
Having read the issue, I thought Buffy appeared completely in character, I didn't think it was very much like her season 6 relationship with Spike, and I didn't see her as particularly worthy of condemnation or criticism. While Buffy definitely seems to have stumbled into something out of loneliness and desperation, she still comes off as caring deeply about Satsu's feelings, and is genuinely confused about the future of their relationship - not in an "am I a lesbian?" kind of way, but in a "how do I keep from hurting Satsu?" way.
Satsu is not Spike, and I think that changes the dynamic of the relationship drastically. She knows full well what she's getting into, whereas Spike spent the entire time deluding himself that Buffy sleeping with him meant she loved him. It doesn't keep her from getting hurt, but she is capable of making her own choices, and she knew it was a one-night stand when she made the choice. Also, while Spike believed he was trying to help Buffy, I think Satsu will probably feel guilty for using Buffy just as much as Buffy used her. Buffy was feeling lonely, and Satsu took advantage of that to make her fantasies come true, even though it's clear Buffy was uncertain about the sex, and may not have been all that into it.
Satsu is not Spike, and I think that changes the dynamic of the relationship drastically. She knows full well what she's getting into, whereas Spike spent the entire time deluding himself that Buffy sleeping with him meant she loved him. It doesn't keep her from getting hurt, but she is capable of making her own choices, and she knew it was a one-night stand when she made the choice. Also, while Spike believed he was trying to help Buffy, I think Satsu will probably feel guilty for using Buffy just as much as Buffy used her. Buffy was feeling lonely, and Satsu took advantage of that to make her fantasies come true, even though it's clear Buffy was uncertain about the sex, and may not have been all that into it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
when was the last time Buffy said anything along the lines of "I had a wonderful night" -
The only thing that I related to her relationship with Spike, and it is only my soft heart for Spike that brings it to mind, is that she invites Satsu to stay with her till the morning, which is something that Spike wanted so much from her.
I also see this as something that had some of the same dynamics of Spike and Anya, two people who are lonely or feeling very disconnected reaching out to each other -
What did you make on the graphics on Buffy's clothing? What did you make of Buffy kicking Satsu into the vamps in the earlier issue? Whether the writer intended it or not, that so made me think of that wonderful "kick the Spike" line - not connected but it did make me think on one of my favorite Spike Quotes.
Also - kind of neat that Buffy has lost her scythe and Spike makes a homemade variation scythe - not suggesting that they are connected, just an observation, just like one of the AtF issues shows Spike drinking from a golden that is similar to the Destiny Chalice - and Spike in all the girly pink, just have to smile. Buffy wears Girly Pink in this issue as well.
The only thing that I related to her relationship with Spike, and it is only my soft heart for Spike that brings it to mind, is that she invites Satsu to stay with her till the morning, which is something that Spike wanted so much from her.
I also see this as something that had some of the same dynamics of Spike and Anya, two people who are lonely or feeling very disconnected reaching out to each other -
What did you make on the graphics on Buffy's clothing? What did you make of Buffy kicking Satsu into the vamps in the earlier issue? Whether the writer intended it or not, that so made me think of that wonderful "kick the Spike" line - not connected but it did make me think on one of my favorite Spike Quotes.
Also - kind of neat that Buffy has lost her scythe and Spike makes a homemade variation scythe - not suggesting that they are connected, just an observation, just like one of the AtF issues shows Spike drinking from a golden that is similar to the Destiny Chalice - and Spike in all the girly pink, just have to smile. Buffy wears Girly Pink in this issue as well.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Joss Whedon, the creator of the film, television show, and executive producer of the comic book said the story line evolved naturally.
Issue No. 12 was written by Drew Goddard, who's the screenwriter of Cloverfield. In this series, Buffy and her female friend are in bed and naked under the sheets.
“It puts the reader in this ‘Oh my God’ moment,” Whedon said during a telephone interview with The NY Times. “And it puts Buffy in an ‘Oh my God, what did I just do?’ moment.”
Whedon made sure to mention that “We’re not going to make her gay, nor are we going to take the next 50 issues explaining that she’s not. She’s young and experimenting, and did I mention open-minded? You do have to be careful about the message you’re sending out. It’s a double-edged sword. You have to be responsible, but you also have to be irresponsible or you’re not telling the best stories.”
Didnt know if any of you had read this yet.
This is funny
quote from kryptonite site, a pic with james and kara
"I have a thing for spunky blond girls. Though I am disturbed by her latest comic book, I assume it was revenge for the business with Jack Harkness... either way, you're coming with me."
hehehehehehehe
Here is the link again if anyone has not read the article yet -
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/books/05buffy.html?_r=2&ref=arts&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
While there have been many negative comments in several sites, I personally don't think that Joss Whedon is not disregarding the TV series history of Buffy's conduct -
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/books/05buffy.html?_r=2&ref=arts&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
While there have been many negative comments in several sites, I personally don't think that Joss Whedon is not disregarding the TV series history of Buffy's conduct -
Still, most pleasing to Mr. Whedon is the feelings the encounter will evoke in the characters. He suggested that both Buffy and Satsu might think, “Did I use this person? I had a nice time, but does this make me a bad person emotionally?” Even more important, he added, is “the funny” it will bring: “Willow might be defensive about it: ‘Well, I didn’t want to sleep with you anyway.’ ”
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here are some Joss Whedon interviews about Issue 12 you might want to read -
http://www.whedon.info/Joss-Whedon-Buffy-Season-8-Comic,26286.html
http://www.whedon.info/Scott-Allie-Buffy-Season-8-Comic,26290.html
http://www.whedon.info/Buffy-Season-8-Comic-Book-Gay.html
Super late, but I am going to check out some of the Whedonesque comments - anyone here posting there?
http://www.whedon.info/Joss-Whedon-Buffy-Season-8-Comic,26286.html
http://www.whedon.info/Scott-Allie-Buffy-Season-8-Comic,26290.html
http://www.whedon.info/Buffy-Season-8-Comic-Book-Gay.html
Super late, but I am going to check out some of the Whedonesque comments - anyone here posting there?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 15 2008 11:06 am #45Guest
Guest
I've already seen some posts of people saying they lost Buffy as a role model now that she's had a lesbian experience with Satsu.
Seriously? That's just insane. I bet they hate Willow's guts for that reason alone.
Mar 15 2008 12:25 pm #47Guest
Guest
I don't know, some of them think of her as a background character or something. They say since Buffy's the lead, she should be hetero.
It's the old "I love you" but only if you follow my rules - you should have read some of the comments at the ABC site - many comments turned this into a religious issue and subversion of our children's morals.
Live and Let Live that is what I say - what is that great line connected with a viewer that was complaining about the series and the way the characters were developing and his no longer watching? "will miss you" - I am sure this is wrong, but it was something like this.
I often wonder what some viewers thought they were watching in Buffy and Angel -
I am so excited about the Spike After the Fall mini story that is being created - yea, we have Spike's Story coming - I Love the Comic Seasons - And we always will have our Spuffy Writers to create stories that will take our favorite couple in directions the original writers never would - THANKS Spuffy Writers! We Love You!
Live and Let Live that is what I say - what is that great line connected with a viewer that was complaining about the series and the way the characters were developing and his no longer watching? "will miss you" - I am sure this is wrong, but it was something like this.
I often wonder what some viewers thought they were watching in Buffy and Angel -
I am so excited about the Spike After the Fall mini story that is being created - yea, we have Spike's Story coming - I Love the Comic Seasons - And we always will have our Spuffy Writers to create stories that will take our favorite couple in directions the original writers never would - THANKS Spuffy Writers! We Love You!
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 15 2008 07:32 pm #49Guest
Guest
The only thing it being a female she sleeps with means to me is that Buffy is giving hope to someone she knows loves her and that she knows won't lead anywhere. It could just as easily have been a male if there where any male slayers but since the only males around her are like family or Andrew then a female it would be.
I'm not disappointed in her for sleeping with a woman.I'm disappointed in her for mishandling another person's heart.
Since Joss has stated that Buffy is just experiementing and is straight then she could've tried some other way to satisfy her curiousity without sleeping with someone she knows loves her. Thatt gave Satsu hope and it's cruel.
The only way I think of the not being Buffy being callous and clueless about how much she could hurt Satsu is if she's deliberately trying to make the girl hate her in order to protect her from Buffy. Since the last person who truly loved her ended up being put through hell and then burnt up. If it's that's what she's doing and satisfying some curiousity and getting off all at the same time then it makes a kind of sense in a twisted logic kind of way.Like being cruek to be kind.
Unless that's the scenario then Buffy telling Satsu not to tell everyone before everyone went and burst in does not bode well.
I'm not disappointed in her for sleeping with a woman.I'm disappointed in her for mishandling another person's heart.
Since Joss has stated that Buffy is just experiementing and is straight then she could've tried some other way to satisfy her curiousity without sleeping with someone she knows loves her. Thatt gave Satsu hope and it's cruel.
The only way I think of the not being Buffy being callous and clueless about how much she could hurt Satsu is if she's deliberately trying to make the girl hate her in order to protect her from Buffy. Since the last person who truly loved her ended up being put through hell and then burnt up. If it's that's what she's doing and satisfying some curiousity and getting off all at the same time then it makes a kind of sense in a twisted logic kind of way.Like being cruek to be kind.
Unless that's the scenario then Buffy telling Satsu not to tell everyone before everyone went and burst in does not bode well.
Mar 15 2008 07:38 pm #50Guest
Guest
The above post was by me ladycat713,And I just realized the wording may have sounded wrong on one aspect. About disappointment. There's nothing wrong with Buffy sleeping with a woman, there is something wrong with using someone who loves you for sex when you know they love you and will never return that love.If she wanted to experiement she could've found someone who didn't love her to do so.It would've been a lot nicer.
Mar 15 2008 07:40 pm #51Scarlet Ibis
Perhaps that's just how she really is.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
If she wanted to experiement she could've found someone who didn't love her to do so.
That's just it - she didn't *want* to experiment. She's not sitting around thinking, "Gee, I wonder what it's like to have sex with a woman. Maybe I should try that out." She's faced with the situation where a woman has expressed feelings for her, and because she is close to Satsu, she's willing to give it a try. Buffy would never be the type of girl to just have sex with some random woman just to try it - she doesn't even have casual sex with men. It wouldn't have happened if it wasn't Satsu, and whether she is sexually attracted or not, Buffy obviously cares deeply about Satsu (more than she appeared to care about Spike when they started having sex).
And I find a lot of people blaming Buffy, as though Satsu is completely innocent and had no say in the matter. It's made very clear that Satsu knew Buffy wasn't gay, and she chose to sleep with her anyway. She knew Buffy wasn't going to suddenly become a lesbian because of one night of hot sex, and she knew their relationship probably wouldn't go any further than that, but she obviously thought that one night was worth it. If she's hurt afterwards, it's only because she set herself up to get hurt.
I think, if you're going to cast blame, it should go equally on the two of them. It takes two to tango, and Buffy got used just as much as Satsu did. Buffy was lonely and starved for affection, and Satsu took advantage of that to have the chance to fulfill her fantasies, even though it wasn't something Buffy was really into. (Although it was clearly good sex, you can tell that Buffy was somewhat uncomfortable about it, given her defensiveness about whether she did it right, and "there's no instruction manual" and "did I do enough?" ) They both knew where the other stood emotionally, and what the likely outcome would be the next day, and they both made the choice to get into bed.
That's just it - she didn't *want* to experiment. She's not sitting around thinking, "Gee, I wonder what it's like to have sex with a woman. Maybe I should try that out." She's faced with the situation where a woman has expressed feelings for her, and because she is close to Satsu, she's willing to give it a try. Buffy would never be the type of girl to just have sex with some random woman just to try it - she doesn't even have casual sex with men. It wouldn't have happened if it wasn't Satsu, and whether she is sexually attracted or not, Buffy obviously cares deeply about Satsu (more than she appeared to care about Spike when they started having sex).
And I find a lot of people blaming Buffy, as though Satsu is completely innocent and had no say in the matter. It's made very clear that Satsu knew Buffy wasn't gay, and she chose to sleep with her anyway. She knew Buffy wasn't going to suddenly become a lesbian because of one night of hot sex, and she knew their relationship probably wouldn't go any further than that, but she obviously thought that one night was worth it. If she's hurt afterwards, it's only because she set herself up to get hurt.
I think, if you're going to cast blame, it should go equally on the two of them. It takes two to tango, and Buffy got used just as much as Satsu did. Buffy was lonely and starved for affection, and Satsu took advantage of that to have the chance to fulfill her fantasies, even though it wasn't something Buffy was really into. (Although it was clearly good sex, you can tell that Buffy was somewhat uncomfortable about it, given her defensiveness about whether she did it right, and "there's no instruction manual" and "did I do enough?" ) They both knew where the other stood emotionally, and what the likely outcome would be the next day, and they both made the choice to get into bed.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 15 2008 08:20 pm #53Scarlet Ibis
I think a lot of people are more inlcined to place the bulk of blame on Buffy because it's Joss who refers to it as experimentation, and that just doesn't sit well. It's a tad hard to look past that, especially considering past events.
ETA: As for casual sex with men, well, technically, there's Spike. She didn't (or wouldn't--whatever) love him in season six, but she had a lot of sex with him. For her, it was casual. You don't have to have sex with various men in order for it to be considered casual. All it takes is one.
ETA: As for casual sex with men, well, technically, there's Spike. She didn't (or wouldn't--whatever) love him in season six, but she had a lot of sex with him. For her, it was casual. You don't have to have sex with various men in order for it to be considered casual. All it takes is one.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Well, it is an experiment, so I don't think Joss is being misleading, but just because she's willing to experiment doesn't mean she was looking to experiment. I think the distinction is that she's not bi-curious, she's not looking around for some chick to sleep with and decided Satsu would be a good candidate. Rather, an opportunity she wasn't looking for presented itself, and she only slept with Satsu because of a bond between the two of them that made her feel comfortable enough to go beyond her boundaries.
Maybe it doesn't make any difference to other people, but to me that makes it seem not at all callous and careless, as others have described it. If she'd just been curious in general and had taken advantage of Satsu's feelings in order to experiment, then yes, I'd have a problem with that. But this is more about exploring an emotional connection with someone, even though that person is not Buffy's preferred gender. In fact, it's a lot like Willow's first experiences with Tara, except that the result is Buffy confirming that she's not gay or bi, instead of realizing she's gay, as Willow did.
ETA: I don't think you can describe the sex with Spike as casual. Even if she didn't love him, there were still a lot of emotions tied up in that relationship - the fact that those emotions were anger, depression, and self-loathing doesn't make it any more casual. Casual sex means you can do it and then cut yourself off from it emotionally - it doesn't mean anything to you. This obviously meant something to Buffy, for her to have such strong feelings about it, even though it didn't mean something good.
Maybe it doesn't make any difference to other people, but to me that makes it seem not at all callous and careless, as others have described it. If she'd just been curious in general and had taken advantage of Satsu's feelings in order to experiment, then yes, I'd have a problem with that. But this is more about exploring an emotional connection with someone, even though that person is not Buffy's preferred gender. In fact, it's a lot like Willow's first experiences with Tara, except that the result is Buffy confirming that she's not gay or bi, instead of realizing she's gay, as Willow did.
ETA: I don't think you can describe the sex with Spike as casual. Even if she didn't love him, there were still a lot of emotions tied up in that relationship - the fact that those emotions were anger, depression, and self-loathing doesn't make it any more casual. Casual sex means you can do it and then cut yourself off from it emotionally - it doesn't mean anything to you. This obviously meant something to Buffy, for her to have such strong feelings about it, even though it didn't mean something good.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I don't think you can describe the sex with Spike as casual. Even if she didn't love him, there were still a lot of emotions tied up in that relationship - the fact that those emotions were anger, depression, and self-loathing doesn't make it any more casual. Casual sex means you can do it and then cut yourself off from it emotionally - it doesn't mean anything to you. This obviously meant something to Buffy, for her to have such strong feelings about it, even though it didn't mean something good.
I agree. Not only that, but she only slept with Spike, when she could have grabbed any random slampiece from the Bronze, and she defined the relationship in terms of its longevity ("Love like that doesn't last" ).
As for Buffy/Satsu: I will have serious issues with it if Buffy is using Satsu, like Scott Allie indicated, since she's supposed to have learned from her mistakes in Season 6 and Season 7 ("What? Using him? What's okay about that?! ... It isn't! It's wrong!" ... "I'm using you. I can't love you. I'm just being weak and selfish. ...And it's killing me." ... "The last guy I was with, it got really... I behaved like a monster, treated him like..." ) However, I'm postponing the verdict until the next issue, or until the end of the arc. Hopefully Joss will treat it as delicately as it deserves to be treated.
I agree. Not only that, but she only slept with Spike, when she could have grabbed any random slampiece from the Bronze, and she defined the relationship in terms of its longevity ("Love like that doesn't last" ).
As for Buffy/Satsu: I will have serious issues with it if Buffy is using Satsu, like Scott Allie indicated, since she's supposed to have learned from her mistakes in Season 6 and Season 7 ("What? Using him? What's okay about that?! ... It isn't! It's wrong!" ... "I'm using you. I can't love you. I'm just being weak and selfish. ...And it's killing me." ... "The last guy I was with, it got really... I behaved like a monster, treated him like..." ) However, I'm postponing the verdict until the next issue, or until the end of the arc. Hopefully Joss will treat it as delicately as it deserves to be treated.
Mar 15 2008 09:41 pm #56Scarlet Ibis
it doesn't mean anything to you.
Well, when you're using someone, which she admits to doing, it doesn't mean something to you. If your objective is to just get laid, regardless if you're angry, or depressed, or whatever, even if it's with that same someone, it doesn't equate to meaning something. "Hey, I'm lonely and depressed, and decide to have sex with my friend cause it's safe--not some random guy from a bar or club" is still casual sex. It's just worse cause you know that person has feelings for you. Unless of course, it was casual and meaningless for them as well, which in that case, it wasn't.
Not only that, but she only slept with Spike
Again, that doesn't mean it wasn't casual. You don't have to go on a one night stand spree with a bunch of different guys in order for it to be casual sex. It can be just the one guy.
As for the whole Buffy/Satsu thing, yeah, only time and more issues can tell, but as it stands, it's not looking too good.
Well, when you're using someone, which she admits to doing, it doesn't mean something to you. If your objective is to just get laid, regardless if you're angry, or depressed, or whatever, even if it's with that same someone, it doesn't equate to meaning something. "Hey, I'm lonely and depressed, and decide to have sex with my friend cause it's safe--not some random guy from a bar or club" is still casual sex. It's just worse cause you know that person has feelings for you. Unless of course, it was casual and meaningless for them as well, which in that case, it wasn't.
Not only that, but she only slept with Spike
Again, that doesn't mean it wasn't casual. You don't have to go on a one night stand spree with a bunch of different guys in order for it to be casual sex. It can be just the one guy.
As for the whole Buffy/Satsu thing, yeah, only time and more issues can tell, but as it stands, it's not looking too good.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Scarlet, I think you and I disagree on what makes sex casual. Regardless of the definition, do you really think that the relationship meant nothing to Buffy? Even if she was just using him, given her behavior both during and after the sex, I can't believe that it had no impact on her - the very fact that she says it was killing her means that it affected her. Like I said, it doesn't mean something good, but it's obviously a significant event that impacts her life, which to me is the very opposite of casual.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 15 2008 10:17 pm #58Scarlet Ibis
Well, there's no definition for it in Merriam Webster's dictionary, but the one I did find is the way I interpret casual sex:
She clearly was not in a love relationship with Spike. And I'm not saying it didn't affect her, but it doesn't negate the fact that to her it was in fact casual--albeit consistent and with the same person, but still casual. One can have casual sex with an ex for instance, just because they're there. Doing it with the same person and/or a person you know somehow makes it seem more acceptable. I expect her to have emotions--she isn't a robot. To have sex with someone and it impacts your life in some shape or form doesn't make it un-casual. When Anya and Spike had sex, it affected them, there were emotions involved, in a sense they were using one another, and it definitely had an impact. At the end of the day, it was still casual.
ETA: Oh--happy birthday Eowyn Hope you get to have some fun today.
| Main Entry: | casual sex |
| Part of Speech: | n |
| Definition: | sexual relations not involving a love relationship |
She clearly was not in a love relationship with Spike. And I'm not saying it didn't affect her, but it doesn't negate the fact that to her it was in fact casual--albeit consistent and with the same person, but still casual. One can have casual sex with an ex for instance, just because they're there. Doing it with the same person and/or a person you know somehow makes it seem more acceptable. I expect her to have emotions--she isn't a robot. To have sex with someone and it impacts your life in some shape or form doesn't make it un-casual. When Anya and Spike had sex, it affected them, there were emotions involved, in a sense they were using one another, and it definitely had an impact. At the end of the day, it was still casual.
ETA: Oh--happy birthday Eowyn
Hope you get to have some fun today."Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 15 2008 11:31 pm #59Guest
Guest
I think Satsu's being set up to be the prophesized betrayer. Maybe after getting her hopes up because Buffy sleeps with her and getting her heart broke.
I just hope that if that's true then they don't do what they did with Seeing Red and say "see, it was ok for her to treat him/her like that, look what he/she did".
If that happens I may bitchslap Joss Whedon. I can only hope that Buffy (the Mistress of the teflon epiphany) gets a clue and realizes her own actions are what caused the betrayal (if Satsu is the betrayer) and have this realization stick.
ladycat713
I just hope that if that's true then they don't do what they did with Seeing Red and say "see, it was ok for her to treat him/her like that, look what he/she did".
If that happens I may bitchslap Joss Whedon. I can only hope that Buffy (the Mistress of the teflon epiphany) gets a clue and realizes her own actions are what caused the betrayal (if Satsu is the betrayer) and have this realization stick.
ladycat713
My speculation on this betrayal in the Slayer Group, and possible directly to Buffy, is with that Red Headed Slayer - Satsu herself being manipulated into a bad situation is also another scenario that could happen with a"betrayal" arc. What I have read of the Satsu character thus far, she seems like a very serious and nice young woman. Unless she ends up being a master assassin that can play many roles or a master Intelligence Operative.
I have yet to hear any mention of the graphics on the clothing in Buffy's room - 1. A pink top with a baby figure on it and Buffy's pink tights or work out pants she wears a donkey. That donkey or ass - could mean that Buffy was being an ass about things, it could mean that she is going to kick some ass on the assailants that entered their compound, or it could mean that Buffy is being made an ass of - OF COURSE, it could mean absolutely nothing - and the artists and writers are just having some fun. I sincerely hope that the donkey/ass does not turn out to be Bottom or a foreshadow of a new lover interest for Buffy. Frankly, I sure as hell would like to see that woman learn to be alone.
My take on the Satsu-Buffy night together is that both women are wanting to connect with someone, Buffy certainly is and, if we can believe the writers, Satsu does in deed have a real love for Buffy. And Buffy thought that having someone that is attractive, strong, etc - not to mention the Smells Good, be attracted to her was just terrific. Cinnamon was considered an aphrodisiac, so maybe Buffy and Satsu are both being played.
The next issue can't get here soon enough for me - Wonder how "the talk" is going to go with Dawn - The thing that I mainly felt, but of course it has nothing to do with the comic season, is feeling very sad seeing Buffy facing Satsu, holding on to her hand, being gentle in their post coital time, when all that was ever shown with Spike after any sexual encounter was filled with anger, recrimination and violence.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 16 2008 05:09 am #61Guest
Guest
The thing that I mainly felt, but of course it has nothing to do with the comic season, is feeling very sad seeing Buffy facing Satsu, holding on to her hand, being gentle in their post coital time, when all that was every shown with Spike after any sexual encounter was filled with anger, recrimination and violence.
Word. Spike goes through hell for time and time again and he's never allowed in her bed ever .The closest he gets to sleeping with her in her bed is sleeping (no sex) in his bed in her house .
ladycat713
Word. Spike goes through hell for time and time again and he's never allowed in her bed ever .The closest he gets to sleeping with her in her bed is sleeping (no sex) in his bed in her house .
ladycat713
The difference, I think, is that Buffy considers Satsu a friend, someone she likes, but Spike isn't her friend, she doesn't like him, and Spike likes to push Buffy's buttons, but Satsu is more polite and understanding of Buffy's feelings. She knows Buffy isn't gay or in love with her, that's why she coped better with the whole thing. Spike thought Buffy was in love with him but didn't know it yet, which was why he didn't understand or cope with the situation.
Mar 16 2008 11:58 am #63Scarlet Ibis
Spike isn't her friend, she doesn't like him
But what sucks is that she did. She didn't start treating him like crap again until she realized she couldn't keep her hands off of him. Could also be that apart of her didn't feel as if he was really, well, real ("I can be alone with you here" business).
But what sucks is that she did. She didn't start treating him like crap again until she realized she couldn't keep her hands off of him. Could also be that apart of her didn't feel as if he was really, well, real ("I can be alone with you here" business).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 16 2008 12:46 pm #64Guest
Guest
One thing I definitely know is true is that this plot point was planned from the beginning. It wasn't to get a sudden sales boost because of lack of interest in the other storylines. It most likely was to get people talking about the comic and get attention but it wasn't out of the blue.
The beginning can be seen where Buffy is thinking Great muppetty Odin,I miss that sex. . Then there's the kiss of true love spell.The prophesized betrayer (could be Satsu or she's the red herring).I just hope the payoff means something and isn't just them saying "look this castle is 99% hot chicks with superpowers, let's have Buffy have sex with one of them! Overlook the fact that Buffy isn't gay and the fact that all those girls are her subordinates.We'll completely bypass all the shippers that way if we use a new (non-tv) character .It'll sell big , there'll be newspaper and tv stories!"
From the I miss that sex line , they were telling us that Buffy was going to have sex.The Bander flirting was the red herring . For some reason the only shippers that have ever gotten any satisfaction in print are the Bangel ones. Satsu is still listed as a minor character in the wikipedia even with this.Basically Satsu exists to fall in love with Buffy , sleep with her and possible betray her (or be thought to betray her) . If it were one of the Sunnydale potentials that Buffy slept with whose name and face we know (like Vi or Rona) then they probably wouldn't had Buffy as a straight woman experiementing , they would have her as bisexual but just now comfortable enough with herself to start dating women.
LIke I said , I just there's a good payoff with this storyline and the others. For instance the giant Dawn storyline. So far she seems to be part of the scenery .So far all we've found out is that she dated a thricewise (whatever that is) that her friends and family warned her about and then it turns out that she was the bad one in the relationship because she cheated on him with his roommate. The size thing is either a side effect of her losing her virginity , a curse of some kind cast by her cheated on boyfriend or Dawn's subconcious making her big because she now sees herself as a giant slut (i read something that had Dawn refer to herself as a big honkin' ho but I can't remember if it was from the comics or a fic).
Of course if it turns out that Satsu was some sort of double agent then would mena that the true love spell had nothing to do with true love and everything to with it being Satsu and to get Buffy intriguied with someone truly loving her again .That would make it one heck of a long term plan. And the cinnamon lipgloss actually could have had something in it to work on Buffy's defenses.
I think this is unlikely though. If Satsu is the betrayer , it's most likely will be because of heartbreak , humiliation (being teased by other baby Slayers) or both.
Possibly Satsu is going to be killed by the traitor (maybe after being thought the traitor) , die in Buffy's arms , have Buffy say "I love you" (even though she doesn't ) because she's dying, and Satsu respond with "no you don't but thanks for saying it" , providing us with a Spike echo.Then after Satsu's dead , Buffy can say , she was right but he was wrong(or something to let us know that the last time she heard those words Spike was wrong) . Letting us know that Spike means something to her still.
I hope that was coherent.It seems like everything in the world has conspired to keep me from getting to sleep early because I had to get up early and then I found out the job I got up early for couldn't be done today because they had neglected to send me all of the supplies (I'm ging to be changing the tags on a bunch of hanes bras.
ladycat713
This entire Satsu-Buffy thing was planned as you stated Ladycat713, from the start - and something very big is planned - Satsu is not the first in the comic series to Kiss and tell Buffy that she loves her. Decoy Buffy was kissed by the Faerie and also told that she was loved in the underground realm - that Buffy dies but she dies as a model of the fundamental theme from the entire series - Those last two pages are beautiful. With all this Buffy Lesbian Sexual Affair, at lot of great and important things in the series are being made less significant. And like so many of the "dark places" that the series took these characters, there seems not much attention paid to the death of this other young, courageous and beautiful slayer - Satsu had the Big Sex Scene, but that other Slayer gave her life, died all alone, with no one, other than the people who sent her there, knowing what she did - I Loved her last lines about if no one in the world knows what she has done and sacrificed, she does. There has been a lot of attention paid to people needing and making connections throughout the comic series - not just the Satsu-Buffy thing.
I would not at all be surprised if Satsu ends up being used by other agents - and the use of "wolves already here" was used in issue 5 "The Chain" which is the story of Decoy Buffy -
Do you think that the writers will ever give the respect and acknowledge the love that was shared between Buffy and Spike - I don't mean something like the statement of Issue 12 "all those who loved me," but a confirmation, in print, that Buffy did love Spike in Season 6? We are shown, for the only time ever, Spike and Angel as equals in her Sex Dream Fantasy which showed them in a triangle with the symbols of a potential train wreck and symbols of things going into a cave, which is a typical symbol of hidden desires or danger. Wonder why the are making such a point of Lovers and Connections?
I would not at all be surprised if Satsu ends up being used by other agents - and the use of "wolves already here" was used in issue 5 "The Chain" which is the story of Decoy Buffy -
Do you think that the writers will ever give the respect and acknowledge the love that was shared between Buffy and Spike - I don't mean something like the statement of Issue 12 "all those who loved me," but a confirmation, in print, that Buffy did love Spike in Season 6? We are shown, for the only time ever, Spike and Angel as equals in her Sex Dream Fantasy which showed them in a triangle with the symbols of a potential train wreck and symbols of things going into a cave, which is a typical symbol of hidden desires or danger. Wonder why the are making such a point of Lovers and Connections?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 16 2008 03:10 pm #66Guest
Guest
I didn't realize that Decoy Buffy had died. The whole DEcoy thing was one aspect that I had loved when I first heard about it (because I hated the hypocrisy of Buffy with the Immortal) but then hated after I thought about some poor girl with a target painted on her chest being made to feel that she is somehow less important than Buffy and less important of life.
Another one I hated was the dreamspace threesome. Spike should've gotten his own spot considering that he died saving the world , even if he didn't mean any more to her than that. I mean Riley even got his own spot and I think there were some pictures of a notebook with angel n buffy 4ever in it so he got the threesome picture and love words.
ladycat713
At least I think the Decoy Slayer from "The Chain" died - but I really don't read comics and perhaps I read the panels wrong - My impression was that she had died since the demon had her in his arms and showing her off as a trophy with his claim that The Slayer was dead. If you know different, please let me know.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
It wasn't to get a sudden sales boost because of lack of interest in the other storylines. It most likely was to get people talking about the comic and get attention but it wasn't out of the blue.
Very true. It's not like they needed a sales boost. The comics have been selling incredibly well. I think the publicity was slightly mishandled, and made it seem more like a stunt to boost sales than anything else, but the issue itself is 100% focused on the event as a character and plot development, and something that has been in the works for a year now, not as a titillating scene thrown in for teenage boys or a ploy to get more readers.
For instance the giant Dawn storyline. So far she seems to be part of the scenery
THIS seems way more like a stunt to me than the Buffy/Satsu sex. Was there any reason for Dawn to be a giant, other than to get people curious about her in the first few issues? Maybe there will be a payoff to this one, too, but at this point, I think it's solely so Joss can giggle and say, "Giant Dawn!!" It's dragged on way too long, and her minimal plot development just hasn't been worth it.
there seems not much attention paid to the death of this other young, courageous and beautiful slayer
I don't think there was ever intended to be. That's the whole point - that she dies alone and no one knows or cares. It was a one-shot, not part of an arc. Her story is tragic, but ultimately unrelated to what's going on with Buffy and the rest of the gang.
Do you think that the writers will ever give the respect and acknowledge the love that was shared between Buffy and Spike - I don't mean something like the statement of Issue 12 "all those who loved me," but a confirmation, in print, that Buffy did love Spike in Season 6?
No. Season 7, maybe, but it won't be a big event, probably just a throwaway line if it makes it in there at all. But definitely not season 6. In Joss' head, I don't think she loved Spike in season 6 at all.
Wonder why the are making such a point of Lovers and Connections?
Because they always have? Hasn't the entire show been about love and connections? The monsters and the apocalypses have always been secondary to the emotional relationships.
ETA - Yes, the decoy Slayer in "The Chain" died.
Very true. It's not like they needed a sales boost. The comics have been selling incredibly well. I think the publicity was slightly mishandled, and made it seem more like a stunt to boost sales than anything else, but the issue itself is 100% focused on the event as a character and plot development, and something that has been in the works for a year now, not as a titillating scene thrown in for teenage boys or a ploy to get more readers.
For instance the giant Dawn storyline. So far she seems to be part of the scenery
THIS seems way more like a stunt to me than the Buffy/Satsu sex. Was there any reason for Dawn to be a giant, other than to get people curious about her in the first few issues? Maybe there will be a payoff to this one, too, but at this point, I think it's solely so Joss can giggle and say, "Giant Dawn!!" It's dragged on way too long, and her minimal plot development just hasn't been worth it.
there seems not much attention paid to the death of this other young, courageous and beautiful slayer
I don't think there was ever intended to be. That's the whole point - that she dies alone and no one knows or cares. It was a one-shot, not part of an arc. Her story is tragic, but ultimately unrelated to what's going on with Buffy and the rest of the gang.
Do you think that the writers will ever give the respect and acknowledge the love that was shared between Buffy and Spike - I don't mean something like the statement of Issue 12 "all those who loved me," but a confirmation, in print, that Buffy did love Spike in Season 6?
No. Season 7, maybe, but it won't be a big event, probably just a throwaway line if it makes it in there at all. But definitely not season 6. In Joss' head, I don't think she loved Spike in season 6 at all.
Wonder why the are making such a point of Lovers and Connections?
Because they always have? Hasn't the entire show been about love and connections? The monsters and the apocalypses have always been secondary to the emotional relationships.
ETA - Yes, the decoy Slayer in "The Chain" died.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I actually did mean season 7 for buffy having loved Spike - and while in a very ugly and twisted way, I still think that she did have feelings for him other than just those of anger and hatred. thanks for the clarification of the slayer from The Chain -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
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