But, nmcil, with the way you're talking about Xander you sound just like a Bangel who says, how can Buffy be with an asshole like Spike who tried to kill her more than once. That Bangel fan could be watching the high school years when Spike was evil, and gets reminded of his bad qualities.

If you wanna judge the relationship between Buffy and Xander, you shoud watch season seven, where Xander became a changed man. More supportive, grown up, quiet, rarely lets go of his anger. That's a Xander I can see Buffy fall for, if she ever did. And Xander's growth continues in season eight, never thought he'd actually stay behind and not follow Buffy to save Willow. He knows he's not strong enough, that's why he tells Buffy to choose one of her slayers. That's more maturity from Xander.

We wish that Bangel fans can see how much Spike had changed over the years, why don't we do the same with Xander and other characters?

Reason that I disliked Xander so very much was this is issue of "judgemental and hypocrisy" -  While Xander does mellow and mature, I don't believe that he is a strong enough person for Buffy, even in Season Seven - he goes along with the let's get a new leader - What are the reasons for that, is it because he was so badly injured?  Did his maturity and changes far short of understanding the life of a warrior and that battles will always bring death and destruction with them?  The Xander that I would  respect  is the Xander that would have followed up on his Buffy Is The Bestest General You Could Have speech with real action of support -  Or a Xander that would have been the leader, the first to speak up in the discussion of tactics and what condition Buffy was to continue as the general. 

All the characters have many flaws, but Xander, IMO, really could be vicious against those whom he felt deep resent against - his part in the Acathla cycle, his attempted killing of Spike, his backlash against Buffy in Selfless when he insist that Anya Vengeance Demon not be slain - in complete contrast and denial of his Angel is a Killer-you just want your boyfriend back. 

Hey - all these characters are totally flawed and screwed up - why they hell did I even watch the series, of yeah, reflection of myself.  Frankly, the only two Scoobies that I really admired were Tara and Oz. I liked Willow and Cordelia I loved for complete acceptance of her self - greedy, selfish, self-centered and I like me this way - you don't like what you see, go elsewhere.

I like the Xander of Comic Season 8 thus far he does seem a lot more mature and being in this new phase of The Buffyverse gives us all an opportunity to have new connections and perceptions of this characters - I frankly would loved to be able to find a new understanding and respect for Xander, let both of us grow.  But from the series, Xander still had a lot of garbage baggage and he would have been better served with well crafted thoughtful scene of deep felt contrition and acknowledgement of some of his worst conduct with Buffy instead of that kitchen scene before he takes Dawn away.

I know that I am especially hard on Xander, but since I always viewed The Buffyverse as metaphor and commentary on our Real World social structures, Xander personified some of the worst dynamics in our society.  Sorry to offend anyone with my Xander dislike - but then I LOVED Andrew and how many viewers totally hated him.

I actually found a Bangel fan today that believes that the only people who are Spuffy's or Briley's are the people who started watching the show after all the seasons were done.

That's definitely not true. I watched from the first episode on because I had a thing for ASH from when he was on VR5.Not to mention he was playing a male British librarian, which was very kink hitting.


I did tend to channel flip more during the earlier seasons (and I missed an eppy or two) because the Bangel scenes made me cringe and that was long before I heard I even heard of Spuffy .

I hated how quickly she climbed into bed with Parker and how needy she acted the next day instead of going off on him. Even if she didn't go all Slayer on him she still could've made him beg for mercy without doing permanant damage.I chalk up her behavior to Angel damage because Angel never fixed any of the damage he did the morning after they slept together.

There's was even less chemistry with Briley then there was with Bangel (And I didn't think that was possible until I saw it). Buffy didn't seem to be interested at all in him . Willow's hard sell of Riley seemed a little too hard if there was any chemistry there. It also seemed like she talked herself into the relationship possibly because he was approved by one of her friends.

The sexfest episode could be held up as the best example of the lack of chemistry in Briley. I actually turned off the tv when they started having sex and then turned it back on occassionally to check if the disaster was over. That was the least titilating sex scene I have ever seen in my life.

The commercial for AYW  annoyed the heck out of me even before I saw the episode because it referred to Riley as the man she loved plus it showed her almost kissing him. My first reaction on seeing it was " I thought we were done with this!" Watching it didn't improve matters. Buffy seemed to simper around Riley even after she found out he was married. Not to mention you have to question the intelligence of a woman who blindly believes the word of a guy who  cheated on her at a low point in her life (sick mother, hellgod) and then blamed her for the betrayal. Then gave her the ultimatum to forgive him or else even though it was his fault and he had already made plans to leave. Not to mention he had gotten over her quickly, didn't tell her he was married(his wife did that) anf apparantly hooked up with someother black ops type unit.

She does all this and doesn't even try to listen to Spike who stayed and protected her sister and her friends after she died (unlike Angel who went to a monastery and left his friends in the lurch) . And who had definitely earned the benefit of the doubt unlike Riley.

ladycat713
 

neither Spike nor Angel were good to Buffy or good for Buffy. 

Buh?  Okay, maybe the not good for, but not good to?  I'd have to disagree there.  Also, yes it's true that Spike changes because of love, but his biggest changes occur while Buffy's dead.  So technically, he did take his own path (pre Buffy's second resurrection--then it becomes way skewed).

As for Angel, he definitely loved and was in love with Darla.  The first seven years or so they're together, Darla is offered to stay at the right hand of the Master, her maker, who she'd been with for a hundred and fifty years, whereas Angelus was only around for seven.  She chooses Angelus.  If there was a bond, her bond with the Master, her maker, would outweigh hers with Angelus twenty times over.  She also tries to ditch him (only to save herself from Holtz) within those first twenty years.  And she does.  He seeks her out.  And Spike did fall in love with Dru--a love that surpasses childe/sire loyalty, or whatever you want to call it, as did Angelus and Darla.  They've all made others (the young couple Darla and Angelus used to hange with pre-Drusilla come to mind, though I don't know their names), but they didn't stick around, nor did Angelus and Darla seek them out.  But the four of them were a family, and not in a "pack" kind of sense.

'Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.' Personally, I don't find DB all that good looking really, he's not my type. I don't think Xander's good looking either. Spike, Wesley, Gunn, Lindsay, even Giles I find handsome.

But DB, I don't find him handsome enough to have the saying 'face of an angel'. His forehead is large, his nose is to broad, and his face has no range of expressions. James might be aging, but I still think he's better looking than DB.

But I also don't think SMG is really that pretty. I know a lot of people do, but honestly I think Alyson Hanngan is prettier than her, and Charisma Carpenter. But that's just me.

And James actually said he tried to put on some weight in season seven so the writer's would stop making him take his shirt off. That didn't work out that well, because he's got his shirt off just as much in season seven as previous seasons.

DB was a terrible actor in the begining of btvs. but it was his first big thing, so i guess it can be expected. from the begining of buffy to the and of angel, he came a huge way.  
And I've always thought he had a fantastic smile. Lights up his whole face
i totally agree. it was nice to get him out of buffy's world, just to see him smile. which he did a great deal  more of on ats.