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BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions "Lie to Me" Feb 14 2008 04:32 am #1Scarlet Ibis Well, it's mid week, and no one actually objected to my bi-weekly proposal for these ep review threads...so here it is. "Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly." https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel I hope a lot of our members will join this episode discussion, especially since it is a Whedon script and the themes are very important to the series - we see Buffy be we sure of her "right" position that will be turned into a disaster and utter chaos with Angel - I think that we should discuss "Lie To Me" and "The Dark Age" together - watched both episodes and they are tied very closely together - they also are huge foreshadows for the Buffy-Angel-Angelus cycle - ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Feb 15 2008 03:13 am #3Guest I know that I love "Lie to Me" because it deals with a lot of emotional depth in all the characters, including the bad guys, while some of the early Season One and Two episodes didn't manage as well. I'm going to go watch the "Dark Age" again to see why nmcil thinks they go together, though. The only thing I really get is that they both have humans put in bad situations who make bad decisions. Though, gotta say, Ethan can just be a lot of fun. he reminds me of Spike sometimes with his wit and banter and the few fics with him being a semi-good guy are really fun. :eyebrows: Feb 15 2008 04:26 am #4Immortal Beloved Hmm, I don't remember much about "Dark Age." Although, I do remember that that episode made me respect Giles a bit more, made him a bit less one-dimensional. I'll chime in tomorrow, though, 'cause it's getting late here and RL expects me to put my Buffy obsession second :-P Give me Spuffy, or give me death. Feb 15 2008 04:32 am #5Scarlet Ibis You know, I was almost going to say that this was like the first ep where a human was the "bad guy" and purposely put other humans in danger for their own agenda. Then I reviewed the list up till that point, and there was "Halloween" (which was chaotic, sure, but more prank like, considering the town and the fact that no one really got hurt. Or at least, dead), "Reptile Boy," and "Out of Mind, Out of Sight." But I think this is the first ep where the viewers were compelled to feel sympathetic to the human wrong doer. Ford wanted to save himself, and was willing to sacrifice Buffy and some lameos who worshipped vamps or whatever. I think what would have been more pivotal in this episode is if we got to see Ford as a vampire. Buffy says, " You die, and a demon sets up shop in your old house, and it walks, and it talks, and it remembers your life, but it's not you." Tons of theories to this, and it may in fact vary from vampire to vampire. But what if they had a moment to converse? I think an interesting contrast is that a human traps people in a bomb shelter to save himself, and a soulless vamp let's them all go to save the woman he loves. There was no gurantee that Ford would be turned (though he is), and no gurantee that Buffy wouldn't have staked Drusilla. Both put their trust in the enemy, essentially. This ep helped to prove that the world in Sunnydale isn't as black and white as it was made out to be in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "The Harvest," which makes it kind of neat. "Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly." https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel LTM is I think a pivotal episode, and it absolutely ties directly to The Dark Age - together, these two are the set the foundation for the Buffy-Angel-Angelus cycle. The titles are perfectly matched - LTM clearly places Buffy at the start of her journey and rite of passage into having to learn the lessons, and horrendous lessons, they will that come with her duty as The Slayer and into becoming a mature woman. In "The Dark Age" she discovers that eventually she and Giles will be equals as adults - that all people/heroes must go through the ordeals of "discovery of self and their inner demons" in-order to become strong, competent, self-motivated, intelligent individuals - to discover their inner strengths, flaws, and attempt to live their lives with their highest potential knowing that they are made of both dark and light forces in combination. The foreshadows and symbolism of LTM and TDA are so interesting and directly connected - I think these two episodes are the foundation for the entire season and season 3. These are the episodes that set the arc for Buffy and her journey as heroine and The Slayer into the trials of passage. Lie To Me is all about accepting that another person's life can be used as a sacrifice to your individual needs - Billy has justified his use of people to be sacrificed - his leading The Sheep to the slaughter, in The Dark Age, Giles and Ethan, also to serve their own desire and interest have caused the death of someone and Ethan is now serving up Buffy, as the sacrificial lamb; Jenny will also become the victim and sacrifice with the Angelus phase.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Feb 15 2008 10:43 pm #7Spikez_tart nmcil - wow! I have to read this over a couple of times. I did notice all the undressed mannequins lying around the shop which I thought was weird, but I didn't get the religious aspect. a human traps people in a bomb shelter to save himself, and a soulless vamp let's them all go to save the woman he loves. - I would add that the human sacrifices the woman he loves ("I really missed you Summers") or at least had the potential to love, in order to save himself. Interesting that Buffy immediately grabs Drusilla; plainly she believes that Spike will abandon his feeding frenzy to save her, which why would she believe that if vampires are evil, souless blah blah blah? Giles calls Spike "our new friend" and says that Drusilla is a 'sometime' paramour of Spike's. Does the Council keep close enough tabs on vampires like Spike and Angel etc that they know when they've broken up their romantic liasons? Interesting. If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who? Giles calls Spike "our new friend" and says that Drusilla is a 'sometime' paramour of Spike's. Does the Council keep close enough tabs on vampires like Spike and Angel etc that they know when they've broken up their romantic liasons? Interesting. Well, they don't keep tabs on them closely enough to know how old they are or who sired who, so probably not as carefully as you might think, lol. (Did Giles even know Angel had a soul until Angel told them? I don't think he did.) One pretty easy benchmark is that Spike doesn't appear to have Dru with him when he fights Nikki Wood. She obviously lived to report at least one of their encounters, so the Council knows of at least one instance when Spike was without Dru. I doubt they've tracked all or even most of their comings and goings. Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat. Feb 16 2008 01:24 am #9Guest I don't know if I'm over-analyzing here but I thought someone could explain to me. In LTM when Buffy is talking to Angel about who she trusts she's wearing pure white. Drusilla also wears white throughout the show, maybe to emphasize her innocence from what Angelus did to her and made her a demon to do. Buffy wears white talking to Angel about who she trusts and saying not to lie to her. Immediately afterward she's in a black top meeting Ford at the school. Then she's still wearing black but with a pale coat over it at the bomb shelter, but loses the coat and wears black or dark brown for the rest of the episode. Could someone better with words or reading into stuff tell me what the color scheme could mean? Cuz I know they usually pick out outfits to matter. That blouse that Buffy wears reminds me of the Bridal Gown she wore in her "Brides Dream" - it also has a suggestion of the evening gowns, this very low cut bodice has just a suggestion of what some of the Victorian and Regency evening gowns would have been - Contrast this very elegant look with her Angel-Buffy-Truth scene with the totally sloppy and men's clothing that she wears around Kendra in "What's My Line - Part 2" - She goes for a young woman who is always extremely well groomed into the slovenly clad woman in men's clothing - What that suggests to me is a play on Freud and how she will very soon be over powered by her emotions (as Kendra will tell her) for Angel. No matter how many viewers fell into the Buffy-Angel-Forever, outside of the application of mythic symbolism, this viewer thinks that Buffy lived through and involved her family and friends in a battle to the death rite of passage. Their love story is compelling, and the actress takes all the viewers along her deadly mirror-world journey of self-discovery. Watching Season 2 again has reminded me how very young all these character were, how very vulnerable Buffy, irrespective of being The Slayer, she was to her emotions and Angel's presence. It's so sad in their ice skating scene to hear her say that she did not even notice his transformation to his vamp face. It is very interesting to see how Xander in the episodes starting with LTM, is the primarily speaker of future events, it is logical that he would be, as the other male in love with Buffy. In WMLpart2 we see also how irrational Buffy will become with respect to Angel - how easily she can cross over into her dark side. While all this unconditional love makes for beautiful metaphor, it is deadly real life of lovers in The Buffyverse. Great contrast and inversion of the savior, that all started with LTM; Drusilla is resurrected to full power. One thing that I had forgotten was how in this early seasons, Drusilla remembers what Angel did to her and her family and how often she reminds him - she really is his waking nightmare, The Bride of God turned into the dark princess of the Hades, nice touch with the reference in LTM with The Sound of Music "Ted" is another really interesting Inner Demons episode - you have to love how the writers used a fantasy love inversion with Joyce - the perfect male that becomes a monster - also an interesting aside is the time period for Ted, the fifties were the ending era of women being viewed as nothing more than attachments to their husbands and home makers - the next generation and era will being about birth control and the Women's Movement - Having to work on couple of paintings is giving me much time to watch all this episodes - great way to watch and work simultaneously. ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. She goes for a young woman who is always extremely well groomed into the slovenly clad woman in men's clothing Buffy always seems to dress down when she's upset or depressed in the early years. Witness the Overalls of "I Just Killed Someone" Depression seen in both "Ted" and "Becoming II," and the sweats in "Anne." I think her clothing in "What's My Line" is a reflection of her being miserable about having assassins after her. Look at how sad and vulnerable she seems when she goes to Angel's apartment and sleeps in his bed. The clothes are a reflection of her mood. It's one thing that I really appreciated about Buffy in the early years, that they acknowledged she doesn't always have to dress like she just stepped off a runway. I mean, who wants to put out the effort on fashion when you're depressed? Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat. that scene when she gets into Angel's bed is so poignant - you feel so sorry for her, especially knowing what is in their future. I always have to laugh at myself - the one outfit that I disliked happens to be the one she wore for her first kiss with Riley - that rather strange somewhat Native American influenced two piece outfit. ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Feb 17 2008 02:20 am #14Spikez_tart LTM - Did SMG ever look more beautiful than she did in the scene with Angel. Which brings me to the question - as the scene ends, the camera shot is from outside the window looking in through the curtains. If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who? Feb 17 2008 03:31 am #15Guest Has anyone else noticed that Spike's coat keep changing? Sometimes its shiny black leather and cut sharply other times it's got wide lapels and is smooth dark leather, and... it just seems odd. It's very noticeable in fool for love when it switches from the punk Spike who's just taken the coat from the dead Slayer to the Spike in the alley. About the Overalls of Woe (LOL), I think I've seen Buffy wear them more than once. In Ted Buffy wears them the day she thinks she's killed a human. She wears them to run away. She wears them in Helpless when she's going to fight Kralik after being weakened and betrayed by Giles. I get that they're bad situtations but is they're more of a common thread? they are both naked when they have sex If you're looking for symbolism in that, I'd say you're really overanalyzing, lol. Most people tend to be naked when they have sex. :) I think it's more unusual when Buffy and Spike are wearing clothes. Buffy is wearing her spotted giraffe pants the night she has sex with Angel and that totally has to mean something. If it does, I don't think I want to know what it is... Angel, spotted giraffe... yeah, that's one better left unexplored. I get that they're bad situtations but is they're more of a common thread? I think it's mainly just Buffy at her lowest. She's got so many things weighing her down, she doesn't have the energy to look good. Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat. Feb 17 2008 05:11 am #17Guest Spike's coat was the same all through BTVS, except that when the prop people would put away for the summer, they'd clean it, and James would have to dirty it all up again. They bought a new coat for the character for S2, but it couldn't look new on an old vampire, so they immediately fatigued it, made it look worn. By the later seasons, it was so grungey, that if James offered it to one of the ladies because it was cold, they'd have nothing to do with it, it was so gross. (Can't imagine all the sweat stains inside from all the stunt work over the years.) CM Overalls of Woe - excellent, makes a perfect statement - Woes is Me. Buffy and Drusilla wear the same the same nightgowns, a very elegant and stunning piece of clothing in the dreamscape scene of "Innocence"- another wonderful inversion of killing, Angel has symbolically killed both women - . The overalls and shirt make a great contrast to the Exotic and suggestive of East Indian clothing that the woman of duty, Kendra wears. In "The Dark Age" Jenny, Willow, Xander and Giles wear variation of black, white, and gray - After "Surprise" and "Innocence" Buffy begins to wear a lot of black and in some of the pivotal episodes and important encounter scenes, Cordelia, who in her Xander/Cordila couple phase mirrors Buffy-Angel, also wears black. One episode, I think it is "I Only Have Eyes For You" all three women wear black and red - the colors of underworld Drusilla. In "Anne" Buffy wears a variation of her elegant silk coat, in pale beige which is also a variation of her brown pants in the original "change of life" outfit. ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Feb 17 2008 04:21 pm #19Spikez_tart If you're looking for symbolism in that, I'd say you're really overanalyzing, lol. Most people tend to be naked when they have sex. -- Heh heh = just joking. Also can't take credit for Overalls of Woe or Black Leather Pants of Evil - for an In Depth Analysis of clothes and Buffy's hairdos go to Boils and Blinding Torment. Heres' an article from Slayage that has stuff about the clothes and the colors used on the set Color of the Dark If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who? There were at least two coats, though - one for James and one for Steve Tartalia, right? Maybe stunt!Spike's coat is dirtier than actor!Spike's coat or something. Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat. Feb 18 2008 03:57 am #21Guest In LTM, DA and Ted (and all the rest of S1) we see JW's obsession with Evil Baby Boomers. Which, okay, we deserved it and it's ironic what bad parents a lot of Boomers made considering how much they bitched and moaned about their own parents. So, here goes: Buffy's mom chooses a sinister Ted over her own daughter because she wants a man in her life. Giles' evil past dabbiling in black magic ( read drug head) is revealed and his lame attempts to cover up his past end up nearly getting Buffy and Jenny killed. No one of the original Sunnydale core has a brother or a sister or a baby in the family, until Dawn shows up and she's more of a clone than a real sister. Tara has a family and they're creeps. Bad parenting is passed on in Bad Eggs. The younger generation hatches monsters or, in Xander's case, kills their offspring outright.
I give Joyce a little more consideration as a parent after Anne - this whole thing with keeping secrets about The Slayer is a huge part of the problems between mother and daughter. Granted this was a dysfunctional family even before Buffy is called, but when Joyce calls Giles out on the other life with Buffy, I think that she is makes a valid point - One of the big reason that Buffy falls so had for Angel is her feeling of isolation via duties of The Slayer and they distance from her mother. One of the plot inconsistencies is this secrecy that surrounded Buffy being a slayer. Kendra's parents knew all about slayers and her duty to the world yet Joyce is kept in total ignorance by Giles - it's a huge contradiction and in terms of what happens between mother and daughter in Becoming, this secrecy that Buffy and Giles impose is a major factor in their breaking apart. The parental models covered the problem of the general student body; ambitious, materialistic, lowered expectations, no support, self centered, anger and hatred between parents, etc. As you state, all the parental relationship are bad. Children have to ultimately leave their parents behind us and make their own world, take the responsibilities of their life and future. Joyce insisting that Buffy can just stop being The Slayer, even if her motivation is all about trying to keep her safe, is like asking Buffy to stop growing from childhood and "Becoming" the powerful and independent adult woman. Buffy, the future heroine cannot ignore her duty i.e., path toward growth and power. Whistler's question; what are you willing to give up, is the vital point to - it's why she has to perceived that Angel has returned - to kill Angelus is the simple task, to become The Real Slayer Angel has to be answer to "what will you give up." It is also why she has to deny her mother's authority and why she can answer with such elegant beauty after all your support is gone what have you got left? and she can answer, Me and in "Anne" Lily, in their last scene together after saying that she does not know how to take care of herself, will take on the name of Anne. In LA, Buffy has the part 2 of the question to answer - she must accept what her Slayer Life demands - All life is sorrowful and you must learn to live with it, to experience the loss that life and love demands. Like Angel told her "that the deal." Did Angel pass his own test is another question? ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Right, jumping into the discussion a little bit late so I'll try not to rehash what has already been discussed which leaves me with: How did human Ford knock the slayer Buffy off her feet and down the stairs? Or knock her back down when she was trying to get up? That was an enormous error in my opinion. Very sloppy. She wakes up and knocks him out in the end. Would have been just as dramatic and more within the whole mythos of the show if they had skipped him getting the better of her. Ford is human and supposedly dying of cancer. Guess he was eatin' him some spinach that day. The bit at the very end (the Buffy-Giles conversation at the grave) is very good, and highlights just how not black/white good/evil Buffy's world is ... which even the writers seem to forget on down the line time and again. Regardless, very good scene. My favorite line of the episode - What I see is that right after the sun goes down Spike and all of his friends are going to be pigging out at the all-you-can-eat moron bar. ~ Q My favorite line of the episode - What I see is that right after the sun goes down Spike and all of his friends are going to be pigging out at the all-you-can-eat moron bar. Yeah, this is a great line - My favorite line of the episode is this one, which for me, was the most vital to this episode and the remainder of the season - ending with Acathla (sp?) and revisited in the Faith as cure for Angel - Kendra was a great voice for the future chaos that comes in the Buffy-Angel Lovers and learning lessons of life. Ford: I'm sorry, Summers. Did I screw up your righteous anger riff? Does the nest of tumors liquefying my brain kinda spoil the fun? ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. One of the plot inconsistencies is this secrecy that surrounded Buffy being a slayer. Kendra's parents knew all about slayers and her duty to the world yet Joyce is kept in total ignorance by Giles - it's a huge contradiction and in terms of what happens between mother and daughter in Becoming, this secrecy that Buffy and Giles impose is a major factor in their breaking apart. I think Giles probably wanted it kept a secret from Joyce because he knew how she would react. Maybe the Council's method of gaining access to the Slayer (or potentials) depends on the culture they're in and the family's willingness to part with their daughter. Doesn't Kendra say that among her people, it's an honor to have your daughter be a potential, and the parents are happy to give up their daughters for training at a young age? I can't imagine Joyce - or any parent in a culture that doesn't believe in vampires - having that reaction. Look at how much resistance she puts up in "Becoming" - I think that's probably exactly what Giles expected, and he didn't want Joyce's disapproval to interfere with Buffy's slaying. And, if we take the "Normal Again" retcon into consideration, then Buffy DID try to tell her parents when she was first called, and their reaction was to toss her in a mental institution. Given that reaction, I don't wonder why Giles insisted she keep it a secret. Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat. Feb 19 2008 02:56 am #26Spikez_tart Sorry that was me ragging about mistreated Baby Boomers. If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who? How did human Ford knock the slayer Buffy off her feet and down the stairs? Or knock her back down when she was trying to get up? That was an enormous error in my opinion. Very sloppy. She wakes up and knocks him out in the end. Would have been just as dramatic and more within the whole mythos of the show if they had skipped him getting the better of her. Ford is human and supposedly dying of cancer. Guess he was eatin' him some spinach that day. This is nothing compared to the climax scene in "Becoming, 2" - how many times do you suppose Spike clobbered Angel with the poker only to have Angel get up and fight Buffy without any marks on his face? ” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.” Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. | |||
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