Hi

I have seen the show Angel before but it has been a long long long time since I have seen it except for season 5. (Spike!!!!!)

Anyways, we all know that Angel loses his soul for one moment of complete happiness.  What I don't get is how come he never loses his soul with Conner or when he thought Cordy woke up from her coma.   You would think Angel seeing his son for the first time will be a complete moment of happiness or when the woman he loves wakes up from her coma.

Did they ever explain on the show why he didn't lose his soul then.  Or are we to assume that the only he loses his soul ever is when he sleeps with the woman he is in love with. Which I think it is stupid if that is the case.  I don't remember at all if  all this was explained on the show.

Thanks

That is a good question, as for Connor it could be because it was a Prophecy so that is why he did not.

There were other times I wonder too, was his soul when Willow replaced it a second time premanent, I did not think so but then you have the Nina/Angel relationship in S5 as well he slept with Eve too in the last season did he not.

smlcspike

This has been discussed before and what was decided was that Angel lost his soul not because of the sex act or because he was in love but because he was 'perfectly content', like Enyos says in Season 2, not happy. When he slept with Buffy he didn't know about the curse or that Angelus could come back and thought he was put on his path by the Powers that Be, that he was meant to be a hero and a champion at the side of a beautiful girl who loves him, he's being redeemed, his life is getting better, and consummating his relationship with Buffy was like saying that this could be his life now and he'd be allowed to be happy.


Also, lotsa stories talk about the soul issue differently. With Angel/Angelus only, and his curse, did it seem like the writers on AtS and BtVS disagree? Cuz lots of times they have different rules or small details but this is kind of important. In S2 Innocence Angelus says the he finally is Angel, at last, and that now he remembers who he is. He talks about being forced to feel love and makes it seem like it's Angel but with a different personality now, after living through being soulful. In AtS, though, especially in S4, Angelus treats it differently. He talks about 'that idiot Angel' like a totally different person and that his ideas are lame or stupid and in Orpheus it shows that he doesn't think of himself as at all involved in Angel's actions, decisions, feelings, anything. They describe it as Angelus being locked away behind the scenes unable to affect anything around him and a totally different person trapped behind the personality of Angel.

So do you think it's the story changing as it grows and the writers have to deal with it more, like some of the back stories of characters, or is it that the AtS writers had a different idea about the soul issue than when it was originally pitched on BtVS?

It's also been discussed that the reason why Connor didn't make Angel perfectly happy or content is because Angel was always in fear for Connor's life. He was born in the pouring rain in an alley, with enemies on their heels, as Darla commits suicide, leaving Angel to raise his son alone. Not exactly a happy-making moment. And after that, there were all kinds of demons after Connor because of the prophecy, and just when that seemed to die down, Angel started freaking out about wanting to kill Connor because of W&H spiking his blood. He may have loved Connor, and had plenty of happy moments, but was never able to put aside the worry enough to be perfectly happy.

Re: the soul - has anyone ever considered that maybe Angel has some sort of dissociative personality disorder? His crimes as Angelus are so great that maybe he has to separate himself from them in order to keep himself from going crazy. He almost DID go crazy in that first hundred years, and just when he thought he'd finally gotten his life back into some semblance of functional thanks to Buffy, just when he's finally starting to come to grips with who he was and make amends, out comes Angelus again. Add a hundred years of a hell dimension to that, and I can see him having some serious issues.

From a meta standpoint, I think the separation between Angel and Angelus is so stark on Angel because you can't have a lead character that's a vicious murderer. You have to distance Angel from those crimes, or he's not worthy to be a hero. Also, I think the separation has always been there to some extent, even on Buffy - look at the way Buffy and the Scoobies make the distinction between Angel and Angelus in accepting him back into the fold in season 3. Whether Angel himself believed it then is a little ambiguous, but given that established dichotomy, it's not really a stretch for the writers to portray Angel and Angelus as two separate people on Angel.

Thanks guys.

So the writers said that the reason why Angel didn't lose his soul was because he was always in fear of Conner's life or was the fans who says that. Just wondering.

I have to say that I don't buy that at all. Here is a man who thought kids wouldn't be possible. By the PTB he was able to have a kid. I don't see how he wouldn't be completely content for a moment at seeing and holding baby Conner. I don't.

Also, if Angel was in love with Cordy. Having her wake up from her coma should have made him completely happy.

I just don't buy the reasons at all on why he doesn't lose his soul during those moments.   I don't think I ever will. Just my opinion.

Thanks again.

Angel was on his knees, in a dark, dirty alley where his child was dying in his mother’s womb, and a man who made a trip from the past, reminding him of his alter ego’s past deeds, is yards away, wanting to kill him.  His child is born through his mother’s ashes.  He loved Darla—he was sobbing, holding her hand and then kissed it tenderly right before she staked herself.  He holds Connor to him, and one of the first things he notices is Holtz with a weapon.

 

After that, he has extreme worries about money, and keeping his son safe from the many demons and humans that wish him harm.  He comes close to perfect happiness, sure (what with the whistling and everything), but then Cordelia is taken away by Groo, and Connor is kidnapped by Holtz.  He didn’t have time to be completely happy.

 

As for Cordelia returning, whether or not she was actually driving the seat after she got her memories back, I’m sure it still hurt, seeing her do all those…things.  On top of that, she shows up precisely when he feels like giving up—he’s at one of his lowest points.  It’s not easy to bounce right back from that no matter who shows up.

I understand that all that.  I just don't see how someone who thought kids wouldn't be possible. Has one and not feel one moment of complete happiness. Or the woman he is love with waking up from her coma.

That is just my opinion.  I get that some people may not agree with me.  Which is all good. It would be boring if everybody shared the same opinion.

Thanks to all those who replied.

Figured I'd give this a bump since it's about Angel.

Anyway, I made a poll about Angel and why some dislike him.  I invite you to take it here.

While many parents describe the moment their son or daughter was born as the happiest moment of their life or their greatest accomplishment, I've yet to find one parent who wasn't utterly terrified at the same moment their child was born.

I don't think seeing your child alive is an automatically pure happiness moment. Sure, there's happiness, but there's also an extreme amount of weight, as there is something that now depends on you, something small and fragile that can't exist without you. Chalk up the fact that Angel has a million enemies (as everyone else has mentioned) and you get happiness plus terror and worry.

Not to mention that he probably felt bad about Darla having to die. I mean, yeah, he didn't love her, but Angel feels guilt about just about everything, and he did know her for 200-plus years.

I read a fic once (a very convincing one) in which Angel is holding Connor and has a moment of pure happiness - with the expected result...
Having said that, somewhere, somewhen, it was said that his moment with Buffy was "perfect" happiness. It wasn't specifically sex with Buffy - it was the whole situation. Beautiful, virginal girl he loves, the ultimate connection between them, her love for him, what appeared to be an end to his lonely life of regret, blah, blah.  As others have pointed out, that moment of perfect happiness was probably never going to happen again.  Even with Buffy - now that they know the possible consequences and have had to deal with the result of the first time, I suspect even having sex with Buffy again wouldn't have made him "perfectly happy".  If we're to assume that his soul is so shakey that being happy about sex would pull it out, he'd have long since lost it.  There's nothing that I remember (haven't seen it all) about AtS to indicate that he's celibate. Just no sex with the love of his life.  If the soul really was that easily dislodged, Connor's birth might very well give it to him, but certainly not the very moment of his birth. Too much else going on.  It appears that he can be happy, just not quite that happy. :)

in the Angel After The Fall comics Angel, sorry I don't have the issue and I totally paraphrase big time, that he thought he understood and knew a great love but with Connor he has discovered and understood the ultimate love in his life -

Perfect happiness, totally something that could have happened easily with the pure joy he felt in all those perfect moments of love and joy with baby Connor -

Does someone remember the episode where Angel get super happy with drugs and lost his soul or somehow returns into his Angelus persona?  It's been many years since I saw it and don't really remember what the circumstances in that episode were regarding his Happy Clause and loss of soul.  Can someone give me the episode title?

That was "Eternity."  Some actress slipped him a happy pill :P  That was a pretty funny ep.

I think Janus describes the losing of his soul, as the moment it stops tormenting him, then that soul will be taken from him. Don't know if that helps at all :)

Janus describes the losing of his soul, as the moment it stops tormenting him
That does explain things a bit.  When would be a better time to be free of thought, and therefore, when his soul is not tormenting him?  Looking at Darla in that alley, feeling their baby die, hearing his heart slow, then seeing Holtz after retrieving his child from her ashes, well, it couldn't be anything other than pain and chaotic thought there.

I remember (haven't seen it all) about AtS to indicate that he's celibate.  I don't think Angel's getting any.  From Judgment, S2.

LORNE: I know you're feeling smooth, in the groove. Isn't that the thing that comes before a fall?

ANGEL: There are three things I don't do: tan, date - and sing in public!

I thought that Angel spends "quality love time"  with Nina

He did.  Wesley convinced him that the loophole wasn't likely to occur just because he got groiny.  Also, he has sex with Eve in that party ep at the beginning of s5.  And Darla in s2 (which lead to many orgasms).  It isn't the sex itself, or just the sex.  The loophole revolves around bliss, which can vary and often has many and various components.

I always wondered if he'd ever be able to lose the soul again through sex (Without the help of a shahman anyway, or some kooky drugs), as isn't he going to be very aware that he might lose his soul, even in the moment?
So even if he'd had sex with Buffy again, I don't think he would let himself get lost in the moment like that again. Ergo- no soul lossage.

I don't think it was just sex with Buffy--it was sex after a long time, sex with a virgin, sex with a slayer--a warrior for good (which would be great for someone seeking atonement, like a baptism, in a metaphorical way), and sex with someone he loved.  So yeah, I think he could have had sex with Buffy many times, and it wouldn't have been like the first time.

Yeah, that first night was a very emotionally-heightened moment.......a unique event. He's all too aware, now, so in the normal real world? Not going to forget the guilt, etc.

CM

Therefore Buffy and Angel endured months of UST ( or they would have if they'd had better chemistry anyway).
What a cop out.