BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
RumorsMay 13 2008 05:12 pm #1Guest
Guest
Did anyone ever hear of any rumors of Joss planning Spike/Willow and Buffy/Xander originially in season four?
Um, never heard about that. I knew from Season 1, Joss knew he was going to make either Xander or Willow gay, so putting them both in heterosexual relationships wouldn't make sense. I doubt that's true...but then again I don't hear every rumor in circulation.
May 13 2008 06:40 pm #3TammyDevil666
I didn't hear anything about Spike/Willow, but I did hear that Joss maybe planned on hooking Buffy and Xander up. I don't think it would have been in the 4th season, though. Apparenly, both Sarah and Nicholas were all for it, but I guess Joss decided on Spike instead. I have no complaints with that.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Actually, Tammy, I've heard the reverse - that Joss wanted Buffy/Xander in season 4, but Sarah was the one who said no. Nothing to back it up, though. I think Joss did intend to do Buffy/Xander at some point, but the show just went in a different direction and it never happened.
Never heard anything about Spike and Willow.
Edited to add a couple Buffy/Xander references: In this interview, Sarah is quoted as saying she believes Joss' original intention was to put Buffy and Xander together. Also, Jane Espenson mentions in the DVD commentary for "I Was Made To Love You" that "it certainly was set up that the two of them should end up together."
Never heard anything about Spike and Willow.
Edited to add a couple Buffy/Xander references: In this interview, Sarah is quoted as saying she believes Joss' original intention was to put Buffy and Xander together. Also, Jane Espenson mentions in the DVD commentary for "I Was Made To Love You" that "it certainly was set up that the two of them should end up together."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I have never heard about Willow/Spike..
Buffy/Xander was the first pairing planned when the series started, but then Joss created the character Angel and fans fell in love with him so the plan changed. Prophecy Girl shows a lot of Xander/Buffy hints, so did some S2 episodes. I remember seeing lots of promo pics showing a love triangle between Buffy/Xander/Angel during S2. The idea was totally dropped when Xander hooked up with Cordelia.
I remember reading that Sarah and Nick asked Joss to pair Buffy and Xander in S7 but Joss thought it's more interesting for Buffy to fall for someone she can't have (Spike)
May 13 2008 09:55 pm #6Guest
Guest
According to commentary on the DVD extras, they were CONSIDERING a Spike/Willow pairing, but decided against it.
Never heard that one about Sarah wanting Buffy/Xander -- what I've always heard was that Joss was pushing for it -- and I have my own theory on why -- and that Sarah nixed it completely saying that the Buffy/Spike arc hadn't completely been dealt with. And if you listen to Sarah? She's very much a fan of Spike.
May 14 2008 04:34 am #9Guest
Guest
She's very much a fan of Spike----Niamh
But really could ya blame her, between the two it is no contest!!
But really could ya blame her, between the two it is no contest!!
May 14 2008 06:20 am #11TammyDevil666
Spike wasn't exactly a saint, either, but he would be my first choice. I always did like Xander, just couldn't see him and Buffy ever having chemistry. He was too much like a brother.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
well thank goodness for little favors - I can't even begin to imagine what could possibly be interesting or satisfying about a Xander-Buffy romantic relationship. Just today, I was struck again how very powerful the Buffy-Spike relationship was - so much more interesting and compelling than even the Buffy-Angel.
Was listening to a cd with some of the music used for Buffy-Spike scenes during the entire series and I was again reminded just how much I was completely absorb by their relationship and journey. Listening to the music and small excerpts for each piece was perfect while doing my glazing - especially hearing the lyrics without the visuals was so interesting. The songs chosen fit the characters and episodes so well, they added so much to my appreciation for the excellent work done on the series.
Another very interesting thing is to read the shooting/working transcripts - I read the transcript for "Beneath You" and the final scene at the church was so different and so beautiful and poetic in comparison.
Anyone here think that Buffy and Xander ending up together would have been interesting? I sure wonder what the ideas and logic regarding a Buffy and Xander relationship would have been - from my POV, nothing would have been worse.
I sometimes wonder if the writers and even Joss Whedon really appreciate how great the Buffy-Spike relationship and their magnificent story of "humans on life's paths" became. One of the things that I really wish that were part of the DVD sets is a really in depth discussion of series - I am so grateful that there are some excellent analysis and critical studies books available.
Was listening to a cd with some of the music used for Buffy-Spike scenes during the entire series and I was again reminded just how much I was completely absorb by their relationship and journey. Listening to the music and small excerpts for each piece was perfect while doing my glazing - especially hearing the lyrics without the visuals was so interesting. The songs chosen fit the characters and episodes so well, they added so much to my appreciation for the excellent work done on the series.
Another very interesting thing is to read the shooting/working transcripts - I read the transcript for "Beneath You" and the final scene at the church was so different and so beautiful and poetic in comparison.
Anyone here think that Buffy and Xander ending up together would have been interesting? I sure wonder what the ideas and logic regarding a Buffy and Xander relationship would have been - from my POV, nothing would have been worse.
I sometimes wonder if the writers and even Joss Whedon really appreciate how great the Buffy-Spike relationship and their magnificent story of "humans on life's paths" became. One of the things that I really wish that were part of the DVD sets is a really in depth discussion of series - I am so grateful that there are some excellent analysis and critical studies books available.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Considering that Buffy turned Xander down when he asked her to the dance in S1, and then they built up a friendship but he also tended not always to like her choices a Xander/Buffy partnership might not have fit the greatest.
YaY for Buffy/Spike that is my favorite.
I could see a Spike/Willow but it not lasting in S4 when Oz left her, she could have used him as a bad boy kind of thing if she wanted too, but I am glad it never happened, I liked Willow/Tara.
smlcspike
YaY for Buffy/Spike that is my favorite.
I could see a Spike/Willow but it not lasting in S4 when Oz left her, she could have used him as a bad boy kind of thing if she wanted too, but I am glad it never happened, I liked Willow/Tara.
smlcspike
Anyone here think that Buffy and Xander ending up together would have been interesting?
Depends on when and how they did it. I would much rather have had Buffy/Xander in season 4 than Buffy/Riley. But I think the best time for Buffy/Xander is post-Chosen, once they've both matured.
Depends on when and how they did it. I would much rather have had Buffy/Xander in season 4 than Buffy/Riley. But I think the best time for Buffy/Xander is post-Chosen, once they've both matured.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
From my perspective, for whatever reasons, IMO, the series ended up with the most wonderful, exciting, compelling, passionate and complex relationships. With the background of Angel/Angelus, Buffy-Spike made a great contrast and compelling study for consequences of that relationship. A Spike/Willow would have worked, but I loved how they brought in the non-traditional love/life style of the lesbian relationship with Tara and Willow. Having lived with the powerful dramatic and complexity of the Buffy-Spike story, I have a difficult time trying to see a Xander-Buffy Couple relationship - I know that it is not fair to the Xander character, but he just was not a big enough character and his character suffered so much from being depicted as an insecure young male. I thought the Riley-Buffy arc was really important, both from the political and moral themes but also from a study of the male-female relationship and the culture patterns that were part of that failed couple.
Of course, in the hands of really good writer doing an honest study, I am sure that any relationship would have been interesting - still, from these Spuffy Filled Eyes and Head, Xander-Buffy is something that totally dislike. One relationship that would have been interesting to follow up after Darth Willow, is Anya and Giles - I love those two together.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Depends on when and how they did it. I would much rather have had Buffy/Xander in season 4 than Buffy/Riley. But I think the best time for Buffy/Xander is post-Chosen, once they've both matured.
It's terrible to see the lastest comic episode and what happened to Xander's new love - I can't wait to see what is going to happen with him - and I so hate this Buffy-Satsu thing - An Effective General cannot tolerate back-talk or disobeying of given orders from his troops. Intelligent discussion and presentation of contracting opinions most certainly should be part of the officer-troops structure, but personal wants over orders can't be a good thing - not if you want an effective and orderly run organization. I certainly hope that this new Buffy relationship is going to take the comic season to a really interesting place.
It's terrible to see the lastest comic episode and what happened to Xander's new love - I can't wait to see what is going to happen with him - and I so hate this Buffy-Satsu thing - An Effective General cannot tolerate back-talk or disobeying of given orders from his troops. Intelligent discussion and presentation of contracting opinions most certainly should be part of the officer-troops structure, but personal wants over orders can't be a good thing - not if you want an effective and orderly run organization. I certainly hope that this new Buffy relationship is going to take the comic season to a really interesting place.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I can't find the article, but I do remember reading something about Sarah and Nick asking Joss to have a Buffy/Xander relationship in S7, but he thought it's better for Buffy to have feelings for someone she can't have.
This is the closest I can find, but i'll keep looking because I swear I read about Sarah and Nick going to Joss and asking him to do a Buffy/Xander pairing in S7:
http://whedonesque.com/comments/2294
http://whedonesque.com/comments/2294
May 14 2008 11:55 pm #19Immortal Beloved
It's terrible to see the lastest comic episode and what happened to Xander's new love
I know, I was like, "Aww, man, why do they keep bumping off Xander's women?" I don't particularly like the guy, but he needs somebody to love him.
I so hate this Buffy-Satsu thing - An Effective General cannot tolerate back-talk or disobeying of given orders from his troops.
Ditto. Buffy/Satsu (Batsu? Suffy?
) just screams train wreck to me. There's a reason why superiors aren't supposed to become involved with the people they lead, a reason why teachers don't date student, and a reason why some companies have actual policies against inter-office dating. It's called, excuse my language, the Principle of Don't Shit Where You Eat. One party almost always has difficulty separating the personal and the working relationship. I'm not saying it can't work, but it rarely does. Buffy sleeping with one of the Slayers can only lead the place of the bad.
I know, I was like, "Aww, man, why do they keep bumping off Xander's women?" I don't particularly like the guy, but he needs somebody to love him.
I so hate this Buffy-Satsu thing - An Effective General cannot tolerate back-talk or disobeying of given orders from his troops.
Ditto. Buffy/Satsu (Batsu? Suffy?
) just screams train wreck to me. There's a reason why superiors aren't supposed to become involved with the people they lead, a reason why teachers don't date student, and a reason why some companies have actual policies against inter-office dating. It's called, excuse my language, the Principle of Don't Shit Where You Eat. One party almost always has difficulty separating the personal and the working relationship. I'm not saying it can't work, but it rarely does. Buffy sleeping with one of the Slayers can only lead the place of the bad.Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Buffy sleeping with one of the Slayers can only lead the place of the bad.
Well, duh. Joss wouldn't do it if it didn't lead to badness.
I don't really mind Buffy/Satsu. It's pretty clear that it's not meant to be a sweeping romance, or even a lasting relationship. It's a vehicle with which to explore more of Buffy's character. I don't mind that it's most certainly going to go wrong, or that Buffy's not making the best decisions. It's not about portraying the perfect relationship, it's about telling a good story. Good stories have conflict.
Well, duh. Joss wouldn't do it if it didn't lead to badness.
I don't really mind Buffy/Satsu. It's pretty clear that it's not meant to be a sweeping romance, or even a lasting relationship. It's a vehicle with which to explore more of Buffy's character. I don't mind that it's most certainly going to go wrong, or that Buffy's not making the best decisions. It's not about portraying the perfect relationship, it's about telling a good story. Good stories have conflict.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I don't really mind Buffy/Satsu. It's pretty clear that it's not meant to be a sweeping romance, or even a lasting relationship. It's a vehicle with which to explore more of Buffy's character. I don't mind that it's most certainly going to go wrong, or that Buffy's not making the best decisions. It's not about portraying the perfect relationship, it's about telling a good story. Good stories have conflict.
with the idea of "exploration of Buffy's character" - what are the readers suppose to make of this line Buffy: I can't believe I find it sexy when she calls me "ma'am." this certainly sounds like something that we would find in a dreamscape or Freudian realm. I look forward to seeing how this all develops. I am also enjoying the return of Drac in the comic season It was very very sad seeing the death of Aiko and Buffy carrying her wrapped body.
I know that Buffy is still very young and growing as a person and leader - but with all that happened in season 6 and 7, and especially the Spike-Buffy fiasco, I would have expected a lot more maturity and introspection from this Buffy. Of course, the comic book format is completely different from tv and the style for writing must be very different, but I would like to have had more explanatory background for her current emotional state. The "screams train wreck" has been shown as potentially part of the season in the Sex Triangle Dreamscape Image. One thing for sure is that Joss Whedon and the writers will eventually bring everything together and give us a wonderful new Buffyverse season. One thing that I really like about the comic season is all the Jungian references and possible mythic connections to explore.
Getting back to original topic of Couples - One possible couple that would have worked is getting Willow and Xander together again - with their history, having them reunite would have also been a good way to explore how the characters matured. Willow and Kennedy were not at all interesting but Xander and Willow might have been very interesting in their final tv season.
with the idea of "exploration of Buffy's character" - what are the readers suppose to make of this line Buffy: I can't believe I find it sexy when she calls me "ma'am." this certainly sounds like something that we would find in a dreamscape or Freudian realm. I look forward to seeing how this all develops. I am also enjoying the return of Drac in the comic season It was very very sad seeing the death of Aiko and Buffy carrying her wrapped body.
I know that Buffy is still very young and growing as a person and leader - but with all that happened in season 6 and 7, and especially the Spike-Buffy fiasco, I would have expected a lot more maturity and introspection from this Buffy. Of course, the comic book format is completely different from tv and the style for writing must be very different, but I would like to have had more explanatory background for her current emotional state. The "screams train wreck" has been shown as potentially part of the season in the Sex Triangle Dreamscape Image. One thing for sure is that Joss Whedon and the writers will eventually bring everything together and give us a wonderful new Buffyverse season. One thing that I really like about the comic season is all the Jungian references and possible mythic connections to explore.
Getting back to original topic of Couples - One possible couple that would have worked is getting Willow and Xander together again - with their history, having them reunite would have also been a good way to explore how the characters matured. Willow and Kennedy were not at all interesting but Xander and Willow might have been very interesting in their final tv season.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Willow and Kennedy were not at all interesting but Xander and Willow might have been very interesting in their final tv season.
I read somewhere that they didn't go there because they didn't want to be seen as "disrespecting Tara" if Willow suddenly turned straight again. I don't think it would have been (at least, no more than Kennedy replacing Tara was disrespecting her by being a heinous bitch), but some fans get very touchy about that.
I read somewhere that they didn't go there because they didn't want to be seen as "disrespecting Tara" if Willow suddenly turned straight again. I don't think it would have been (at least, no more than Kennedy replacing Tara was disrespecting her by being a heinous bitch), but some fans get very touchy about that.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 15 2008 06:22 pm #25Scarlet Ibis
You know, I think that Willow/Xander would have been a godsend...Who actually gave a rat's ass about Kennedy? I thought that was way disrepectful to Tara's memory--someone who didn't know Willow's previous history at all, and encouraging her to take on spells that she may or may not have been able to handle, and was in no shape or form to help Willow should she be on the brink of darkness again. Xander was more than capable, and was the only one who could talk her down. He's her best friend, someone she was previously attracted to in her grown up years, and someone she loves dearly--why wouldn't they make sense (by that point)?
That, and...I really hated Kennedy. They really should have offed her within the forty minutes of her introduction. Or hey--why couldn't Willow just be alone? That would have been more realistic.
That, and...I really hated Kennedy. They really should have offed her within the forty minutes of her introduction. Or hey--why couldn't Willow just be alone? That would have been more realistic.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
He's her best friend, someone she was previously attracted to in her grown up years, and someone she loves dearly--why wouldn't they make sense (by that point)?
I agree that Xander would've been better for Willow than Kennedy (but honestly, anyone would've been better than Kennedy), but I don't really feel like the Xander/Anya stuff was resolved enough to put Xander with someone else. Not right in front of Anya at least, and especially not Willow, given Anya's issues with her. Wouldn't say no to post-Chosen Xander/Willow, though.
I agree that Xander would've been better for Willow than Kennedy (but honestly, anyone would've been better than Kennedy), but I don't really feel like the Xander/Anya stuff was resolved enough to put Xander with someone else. Not right in front of Anya at least, and especially not Willow, given Anya's issues with her. Wouldn't say no to post-Chosen Xander/Willow, though.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Having Willow and Xander again did not have to be in an intense romantic mode - just worked as two major characters that have lived through so much and that have matured - have them heading toward finding that Romantic Relationship but with a greater understanding of themselves - It would have been wonderful to have them act as the vehicle to explore not only themselves but as a way to bring in additional information about the other characters. Especially Buffy's emotional trauma and what was motivating all that huge and deadly anger that she channeled onto Spike. The Season 7, "I was using you scene" was paltry and, IMO, utterly failed dramatically and as a "connecting statement" to their destructive and abusive relationship, particularly the part she played. Willow and Xander could have been used to help bring some quality of "closure" or more in depth study.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
What I really disliked about S7 is the lack of strong focus on friendships. Why must Willow have a love interest to get through her issues and move on from Tara and grow stronger? Why can't she get that help from one of her friends? Many complained about the lack of Xander and Dawn in S7, it would have been great if one of them helped Willow get her confidence back. I vote for Dawn, seeing how she was the only one who voiced her distrust in Willow in Same Time, Same Place, it would have been a good arc for Dawn to be able to trust Willow again by helping her through her redemption.
I was also hoping for a blossoming friendship between Xander and Spike, sure, they don't seem to hate each other like they used to, but I wanted it to be more focused on.
I'm enjoying the new S8, and Dracula is one of the highlights. Buffy's thing with Satsu doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't develop into a big ship. I liked the idea of a gay slayer falling for Buffy, I was disappointed in Buffy when she used Satsu's feelings and disappointed in Satsu when she had sex with a woman she knew was not gay. But no one said that Joss' characters were perfect.
I was also hoping for a blossoming friendship between Xander and Spike, sure, they don't seem to hate each other like they used to, but I wanted it to be more focused on.
I'm enjoying the new S8, and Dracula is one of the highlights. Buffy's thing with Satsu doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't develop into a big ship. I liked the idea of a gay slayer falling for Buffy, I was disappointed in Buffy when she used Satsu's feelings and disappointed in Satsu when she had sex with a woman she knew was not gay. But no one said that Joss' characters were perfect.
I'm enjoying the new S8, and Dracula is one of the highlights. Buffy's thing with Satsu doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't develop into a big ship
I am not at all bothered by BufSat because of this being a lesbian relationship, what is both bothersome and yet very interesting is the set-up for their connecting. I think that there is going to be a lot more hidden agendas and manipulation of that character revealed in their arc.
Irrespective of what Joss Whedon's Season 8 brings into his Buffyverse, I am still firmly in the Spuffy Camp - that is the relationship that I find fascinating and powerful. And let me take this time to say "THANK YOU and KEEP WRITING" to all the wonderful writers here for keeping Spuffy alive for all the fans.
I am not at all bothered by BufSat because of this being a lesbian relationship, what is both bothersome and yet very interesting is the set-up for their connecting. I think that there is going to be a lot more hidden agendas and manipulation of that character revealed in their arc.
Irrespective of what Joss Whedon's Season 8 brings into his Buffyverse, I am still firmly in the Spuffy Camp - that is the relationship that I find fascinating and powerful. And let me take this time to say "THANK YOU and KEEP WRITING" to all the wonderful writers here for keeping Spuffy alive for all the fans.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I think we can still like Spuffy even if she's going to end up with someone else in S8. When you have fanfics it doesn't matter where canon goes, we can still write a fic where Buffy ends up with Spike
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