BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Who was a better champion?

Jun 15 2008 06:12 am   #1Guest
Who do you think was a better champion, Angel or Spike?
Jun 15 2008 06:27 am   #2Scarlet Ibis
Though Angel's been in the game much longer, Spike would probably win by default due to the fact that he not only sought out his soul, but opted to become a champion without the coersion of some higher power.  His first official year in, and he does the whole self sacrifice thing.  Angel's champion status technically kicked in when...hmm...I guess when he accepts Whistler's offer, but I don't think he would have served as a sacrificial lamb if given the choice (his first year--not later on).  But then, Spike was always about staying to fight and going out with a bang.  That was something that Angel acquires much later.  Angel had a lot of fear in season one of Buffy.  He wanted to do the right thing, but at the same time, he would've quit if he could have.

Also, I think it's entirely possible that sense the Liz Taylor necklace was for Angel, and was meant to "cleanse" or whatever, perhaps it was meant to take away his soul.  An incorporeal Angelus, lurking around and trapped in W&H, chopping at the bit to do evil, and then bam, he's corporeal again, raising all kinds of hell.  Basically, I think that it's possible that Spike didn't have his soul all that time.  When he was a "ghost," he really wasn't (I think Fred says).  He was just this...incorporeal essence.  And this is probably going to open a can of worms I had no intention of opening, but it was just a thought that turned into a ramble.  Sorry.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 15 2008 06:54 am   #3Guest
Excellent point , Scarlet Ibis.

Angel was terrible help at first. All info, no fight. And not even great info at first He witheld info about the Master, Darla, Spike and Dru.

Plus he was willing to let Buffy die because of some prophecy and not do jack to help. If Buffy hadn't started up with him (why I don't don't know considering everything) he would've bailed right after her funeral.

ladycat713
Jun 15 2008 05:51 pm   #4Guest
In TGIQ Angel and Spike have an argument about who saved the world more often. I think it's more about the reason and nature of the person than what their action resulted in, like Faith in season three was killed a bunch of vampires and demons because she enjoyed the fight and the feeling of power, not anything to do with duty or saving people.

The definitions of a champion relevant here is:
-A person who fights for or defends any person or cause.
-A fighter or warrior.
-To act as champion of; defend or support

Now, which of the vampires best fits these definitions? Let's think. Spike has fought to impress a girl, for love, because he wanted to make himself better, and to save the world for others, all while being stepped on or ignored.  Angel was pushed into fighting, but he didn't really bother fighting until he was making out with, the girl, because he didn't know what else there was to do after losing and regaining his soul, because another mesenger showed up and tried to get him to fight, and for the hope of being rewarded.
Jun 15 2008 05:53 pm   #5LisFayte
One thing is that Angel never really stopped an apocalypse, but he was good at starting them. The W.R.&H. apocalypse was one of his own making, Jasmine wasn't causing one, she really wanted to make the world better, but went around it in the wrong way. And lets not forget Acathla, Angel say's that Angelus wasn't who he is, but that is bull, Spike hardly changed at all when he got his soul.
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings

Come to challengespuffy  post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Jun 15 2008 06:11 pm   #6Guest
Plus, if we compare the two vampires for only when they had souls, Spike is absolutely more of a Champion than Angel and all his destructive, egotistical decisions and sometimes mistakes. Spike even without a soul may not have been a champion, but he was in standing with Angel too, who also didn't seem to be much of a champion so much as someone doing a job. The fact that Spike could love and try to better himself and fight for actual reasons when he didn't have a soul just makes me think he was more worthy to be a Champion because his nature, who he is, whatever you want to call it, is all like that where Angel totally ignores anything to do with his ignoble curse and soulless self to have anything to do with his self-righteous title of champion. Spike can accept all parts of himself and be true to himself, where Angel shuts one part of himself away and denies it. All people have darker desires or selfish thoughts but they can't just label them and box them up with a curse and claim they are then such a good person. Constantly denying a part of yourself is not healthy or genuine.
Sorry, started to ramble...
Jun 15 2008 06:16 pm   #7Scarlet Ibis
I don't think it's fair to compare Spike and Angel souled and unsouled.  It's clear that when it comes to that, Angel/Angelus has a personality disorder.  As for the whole W&H thing, I get what Angel was trying to do.  It was an honest mistake.  It was not his intent to send LA to a hell dimension.  The consequences were huge sure, but that does not change the intent of his actions.  Spike's had quite a few mucked up "honest mistakes" as well.  Of course they never involved world endage, but still.  Well, cept that one time in "Doomed."

As for the whole champion definition thing, well, Angel and Spike both fit the bill.  Typically, everyone has at least one motivation that could be defined as "selfish."  Even Buffy had selfish motivations at times.  If we were to go by the least selfish champion on both series, then that champion would be...Cordelia. 

ETA:  Spike unsouled was always able to see the big picture, whereas Angelus was provincial.  Angelus was more about image, and in a sense, had more to prove.  When he came back for the whole Acathla thing, I think a big part of it was (besides the fact that he was a bit insane by being caged by a soul) was to show who had the biggest wrinklies.  Think of it--he'd been out of the evil cycle for a hundred years.  In that time, Spike had taken out two slayers.  Further more, he killed his sire, the woman he loved for some girl.  A slayer, no less.  Yes, Angelus had a lot to prove, and what says "I'm the baddest mother fucker in town" then sending everyone into hell?  Over the top and unnecessary, but we are talking about Angelus.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 16 2008 03:46 am   #8nmcil

An important issue, IMO,  regarding  Angel/Angelus is that his being en-souled was meant as a curse and punishment and it worked extremely well until his encounter with Whistler - his soul had a very dark quality to it as well as we see in the episode   "Are You Now, or Have You Ever Been?" - "Reunion" and during the Boxer Rebellion he does feed off what he considers "low life criminals" plus he stay at W&H had many problems attached with it.  His en-souled life goes through several cycles before we see him in the alley with Whistler.  Even the "moment of happiness" works to cause him suffering - it takes away any great joy from his existence.  That it  is a poorly thought out "clause"  we all agree on.  All of the AI Team is tainted by "quilt from association"  while at W&H.  I my opinion Angel/Angelus was definitely in a much darker mode at W&H and ever since Darla comes back into his life.

It was not his intent to send LA to a hell dimension. The consequences were huge sure, but that does not change the intent of his actions."honest

This question of "intent" has so many layers - each viewer will interpret his decision very differently - My personal POV is that Angel/Angelus was simply utterly exhausted  from his role as Champion and practically destroyed from what happens to Connor. This  made him extremely vulnerable to Illyria's perception of Rulers and Power and he goes into his "one last great stand mode" and takes his faithful warriors along with him.

Spike's soul and status as champion has the huge advantage from being self-directed and completely by choice - not only done by choice and with almost no support or encouragement.   Spike/William had this enormous capacity to love and this is also a vital part of choices for action - Angel has this too, but I don't think he has it to the same degree - of course that's just how a Spike fan will see it. 

Angel/Angelus  had much support for taking on the role of Champion so it was much easier for him to take on the role - but as has been posted,  his idea of what that means is very strange in the early seasons at Sunnydale.

Guess the bottom line for me is that each vampire had their  individual strengths and were so different that a comparison of "Which Is Better" is hard to apply -  I will always see Spike as being The Best Champion-VampireMan because he represents the qualities that are important in my own life - Angel was never a  good example of  mature and responsible man - be it in human form or as the vampire/man.

 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 16 2008 04:45 pm   #9pfeifferpack
Well although Angel had his SOUL longer he did very little with it until he moved to LA.  Those times he "helped" like saving the dog in Chicago (yup...he counted that), didn't eat the missionary baby in China, worked for the Allies in WWII (one time under force and he sired Lawson and left him to continue as a killing vampire for pete's sake!) and helping the scared girl in the hotel in the 1950's (then leaving them all to die because they turned on him)...nope not much of a champion.  Then came Buffy who won his loyalty with her "heart in her hands" (or lollipop which is what I saw in her hands)....he would drop hints, offer suggestions and half truths and on occassion fight but never took on his family to save her from prophecied death .... I digress.... Anyway, his days as a champion really seemed to start after he left Buffy and moved to LA.  many is the time he chose poorly there too.

Spike helped Buffy stop Angelus with Acathla while soulless...yes his motive was not pure but he did a champions job nonetheless.  He helped against Glory, again soulless.  He stayed that summer while Buffy was dead and took care of Dawn and her friends while guarding the Hellmouth...no soul and the actions of a champion.  He fought for and won his soul tomake better choices and to keep frmo ever hurting Buffy again and RETURNED to the one place most likely to see him dust (probably to keep his promise to always look out for Dawn...why else hide out at her high school?).  Finally he died a sacrificial death in the hellmouth....a definite champion this time with no suspicious motive (we didn't even get into Angel's motivations and he has some not purely high minded too).  On to LA where he saved Angel's life immediately then Fred's (both times giving up  chance to be corporeal and save himself from that hell he hovered over), he took up Angel's old occupation of champion of the people  and finally joined Angel rather than just sit back and watch his sire on his suicide mission. 

Add in that Angel without a soul would and could do nothing as a champion whereas Spike has been demonstrated to have done so it seems to go without saying that Spike is a champion with or without that soul and Angel only on occassion with one.  Spike wins hands down.

Kathleen
Jun 16 2008 08:13 pm   #10Chaotic_Soul
Personally, I see Spike as being the classic "bad guy turned hero", while Angel seemed to me to represent how the average person would act with the whole vamp/hero gig thrown on them. Spike as a human was a very creative, innocent, and pure person, while Angel was a bit of a rowdy drunk. He wasn't evil, but he was far from pure(which is how I think the majority of people are). So he was meant to represent human weakness and strength, at least that's my view.
I am misunderstood and therefore, feared. Humans will always fear that which they don't understand, and are therefore eternally ignorant of true beauty.
Jun 16 2008 10:50 pm   #11nmcil
Even in the "Angel After the Fall" season Angel/Angelus is stilled motivated by a self-centered agenda - his arrogance played a huge part of all his choices at W&H and he is again saved by his comrades - whatever game is being played out in HellLA - Angel, especially with the turning human, fits into the Hero brought back into the real world by guides - Lorne, Spike, and Connor are the perfect, IMO, metaphor guides - Lorne who really only wanted to live his life in a world where he could be himself and sing his voice of the world, Connor because he is the new cycle of possibility, and Spike because he is the self-created & resurrected man.

Having seen many of the early seasons from Sunnydale, I find that I have a very hard time accepting Angel as a character of the "White Hat" side - it is only after he leaves Buffy that I can begin to see him in a role as "would be Champion." - 

What is Angel/Angelus' best moment of Champion?  I always see his willing to sacrifice his life to save Darla as one of, if not his best moment - but even that is so heavy with layers.  

One of the things that I always hated about Buffy's world view is her dogmatic attachment to  Angel-Angelus were not the same entity - that all his history could be put aside because he had this mystical soul ticket.  On every possible level, other than Angel having absolutely not even one shred of memory; even this is questionable, could Angel-Angelus not be connected.   I believe that mature vampire do have the ability to make choices and that they are fully sentient beings able to experience all levels of emotions and intellect.  Angelus simply choice to paint his life canvas in full blood red and Angel needed to see himself as separate. 

Wouldn't life be nice and easy if we could all do that - even in "Destiny" what I loved about Spike is that he knew he was made of both side - when he drinks from the elixir cup - he acknowledges that he is taking away from Angel for their past history but also very clearly taking on the burden of Champion and Warrior.  And while Spike may think that they were being played, which they were, nevertheless - Mountain Dew is akin to the ambrosia drink of the Gods.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 17 2008 03:22 am   #12Eowyn315
It's certainly not a surprise that on a Spuffy site, Spike would come up the winner in a debate like this. However, it's apparently too much to ask that we even give the appearance of fairly comparing the two...

Kathleen, I don't mean to pick on you, but your post is just perfect for demonstrating the bias in giving rationale for the "better champion." You give a detailed accounting of everything Angel did with the soul that wasn't heroic, and then by your own admission, you stop at the point at which Angel's "days as a champion really seemed to start." So, you only wanted to give us the negative things about Angel, and then move on to the positive about Spike. Doesn't really seem fair.

It's interesting that no one has yet mentioned the two apocalypses Angel helped Buffy to avert ("The Zeppo" and "Graduation Day" ). Nor has anyone mentioned the countless people Angel saved, one at a time, during the five seasons of "Angel." Being a champion is not just grand gestures and noble sacrifices - it's also the day-to-day fighting, making a difference one life at a time. Is it really more meaningful to save thousands of people in one fell swoop than it is to save one person at a time, every day for years? I honestly think it takes more courage to go out every day and fight a losing battle against evil than it does to make one big gesture and sacrifice yourself. That's why Buffy saw her death as a release - because death was easier than fighting. Death was easier than making the hard choices that came with the daily struggle against evil. Death was easier than seeing everything you love stripped away and everyone you care about die in a battle that never ends. That's something that Angel did, day in and day out, for years, and it took a lot out of him. And that was something Spike only did after Lindsey told him to, and was never very good at. I don't think he ever knew the frustration and despair of that life, to know that you fight and fight and you never win, but you can't stop fighting or evil triumphs.

And while we're on the subject of Spike, I feel like it needs to be pointed out that he gets a lot more credit for stopping Acathla than he deserves. He claimed he wanted to save the world, but once he had what he wanted (Dru), he split. He stated flat-out that Angelus was going to kill Buffy, thus allowing the world to be sucked into hell, and he walked away.

I'm not saying I disagree with the ultimate conclusion, because I wouldn't be on this site if I did, but I think this thread needed a little perspective.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 17 2008 05:25 am   #13nmcil
I honestly believe that one of the problems that surrounds Angel/Angelus as a champion is the very early treatment that the writers used with his character - it is hard not to remember that in her confrontation with The Master - we are shown Angel  reading,  and apparently accepting the prophecy, without not trying to prevent her death - it is the common normal human Xander that goes into action and Angel follows his lead plus Giles will go and try to fight The Master himself.  I'm not sure what Joss Whedon was trying to accomplish with Angel as the hero.  What we see is not Angel, the hero, but Xander and Giles as the heroes along with Buffy and perhaps that was the whole point - that the power to be a hero and a warrior is inside all the "everyday Joes" -

Is it really more meaningful to save thousands of people in one fell swoop than it is to save one person at a time, every day for years? I honestly think it takes more courage to go out every day and fight a losing battle against evil than it does to make one big gesture and sacrifice yourself.

It is as you say - extremely hard but also vital and heroic  to go out every day and night to fight the battle over and over without the end in sight - and certainly Angel/Angelus does this but then so did Gunn, so did Wesley and The Scoobies and the AI Team - it's what fathers and mothers do everyday with their boring and dead end jobs or back breaking physical labor jobs and leave behind their dreams for different life everyday too.    Perhaps it is the title "Champion"  being used to distinguish Angel that is a bit of the problem.   There is no question that Angel/Angelus did a tremendous amount of good but his role as "The Champion"  is brought into question.  And that is what makes him so interesting, if he were always doing the right thing and making all the right choices he would not be complex and interesting character -

I am not sure what other viewers found really interesting in Angel/Angelus and his role of The Champion - my real interest in his character was as a vehicle for exploring the complex relationships and conflicts  between his/our  Light and Dark nature.  His role as The Champion, just as the arc between Buffy and Spike, was not ever really about a romantic relationship, was not what I found compelling or important -

I do agree with you regarding Spike's role in The Acathla Cycle - and it was another of those "not making sense moments" - if he really wanted to save his butt and his love Drusilla and thinking that Angel was going to kill Buffy - the logical connection to previous story would have been to stay and make sure that Angel did not open the portal -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 17 2008 05:31 am   #14pfeifferpack
Okay...not feeling picked on mind you but I did concentrate on the negatives with Angel thinking to be brief.  You are right and that wasn't fair.  On Angel the Series (which, BTW, I loved and where I came to love the flawed character at last) he did day to day heroics that proved him ndeed a champion.  Yes, Doyle had to be sent to spur him on as he was backsliding to avoiding humans again but once he was in it he was out there first saving Cordy and many individuals including demons (something I really enjoyed on that series...they got into the grey area).  He also finally made some effort to undo some of his own legacy by killing Penn and later Lawson.  He was indeed a champion be it from guilt, a sense of purpose (something Spike claims his impetis when he joins in S5....the need to do something with his unlife) or for a future of cleared "sins" and Shanshu metters not.  He was out there flaws and all trying to make a difference to the end.  He made some very bad judgement calls along the way but he was all in all a champion.

I stand by my summation that Spike was the better man, vampire and champion though for reasons far too numerous to mention.  As for him cutting out after  Acathla....he only promised to fight the others so that Buffy had a shot at Angelus and his reward was to leave with Dru.  There was hesitation and an argument could be made that had he really felt Buffy would ultimately loose he might have returned to help....after all had she died and the world been sucked into hell it was a circumstance he had clearly stated would not be to his benefit or desire.  On some level he knew she would prevail without his further aid.   He fulfilled his contracted agreement.

Hope I've given Angel sufficient credit this time.  I didn't mention all the Angelus time he had on both series as he did nothing productive in the least unsouled.  The point (that got lost) in my first rendering was to show that only with the forced soul was Angel a champion at all and then only when spurred on by representatives of the Powers whereas Spike acted the role without a soul more than once and with no other reason than love (be it Dru or Buffy).



Kathleen
Jun 17 2008 05:56 am   #15Eowyn315
I'm not sure what Joss Whedon was trying to accomplish with Angel as the hero.
I think that's exactly the point. He wasn't trying to make Angel a hero. Angel didn't really become a hero until they decided he should be the star of his own show. Until then, his only role was to be the mysterious/forbidden lover and cause tremendous angst in season 2. He wasn't even supposed to come back from the hell dimension, but they decided to do a spin-off, which is why there is a marked difference in Angel's character from the beginning of the series.

certainly Angel/Angelus does this but then so did Gunn, so did Wesley and The Scoobies and the AI Team
I think there's a difference between being the leader and being the sidekick, though. It's no question that things were harder for Buffy than for the Scoobies, and I think the same is true with Angel and his crew. The leader has more responsibilities, a lot more weight on their shoulders. Not to mention that the leaders are chosen - the sidekicks volunteer, and can walk away at any time.

There was hesitation and an argument could be made that had he really felt Buffy would ultimately loose he might have returned to help....after all had she died and the world been sucked into hell it was a circumstance he had clearly stated would not be to his benefit or desire. On some level he knew she would prevail without his further aid.
I don't know... the words "God, he's gonna kill her" seem to indicate that, well, Spike thought he was going to kill her. :) The whole point of the joke is that he thinks she's going to die, yet he just shrugs and walks away. I think it's an instance where the writers went for the cheap laugh rather than what would make logical sense for the character.

whereas Spike acted the role without a soul more than once and with no other reason than love (be it Dru or Buffy)
Well... I'd quibble over whether you could call what he did in Becoming the actions of a champion, but I get your point. Thanks for indulging me in considering Angel further. :)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 17 2008 07:04 am   #16Scarlet Ibis

*raises hand*

I was not on a, well, "strongly dislike of Angel" bandwagon, though I still think Spike would win.  I agree with Chaotic_Soul though--Angel was a reluctant hero.  He grows out of it, and it's okay.

Hope I've given Angel sufficient credit this time.  I didn't mention all the Angelus time he had on both series as he did nothing productive in the least unsouled. 

This is actually untrue--Angelus was the only one who was capable at stopping the Beast.  Not Angel and his crew, not Faith....Just Angelus.  He figured out how to kill the big stone monster.  Sure it was for fun, and the Beast annoyed him, but still, he took him out, and brought back the sun. 

Angel is considerably older, and therefore has had a lot more time to make mistakes. And let's face it--the only reason Spike got his soul was to not be a champion, but to prove a point--that he could change on his own without the aid of the chip.  Even though I feel that his point had already been proven the year before, and all of the Scoobies were just too dumb to see it.  Cept for Dawn and Tara maybe.  Angelus had a soul forced into him, and Spike fought for one to prove he wasn't just an unfeeling thing--that he wasn't a monster.  It wasn't for a noble cause or to save people or fight a war or heal the world.  And, I think it wasn't specifically for love--he already felt it.  It was to say "You're wrong about me" once and for all, and no one could possibly refute it once he had a soul.  Well, cept for Xander for a little while there.

So, we have two roads diverged folks.  But the result is still the same.  With souls, both are still capable of making bad decisions as well as the good.  Both are capable of bad things.  Sure, Angel left those lawyers to die by two vampires they brought to town in the first place, and Spike willingly tortures a man to get information to save Fred.  One could even say that Spike's hands may be dirtier. Frankly, neither instance bothered me--I could understand both their reasoning.  Both parties had it coming.

As for the whole getting LA sucked into LA, well, I've said this before on some other thread, but Wesley, Gunn, Lorne and Spike all made a choice.  They took a vote.  Wesley, I think would, follow Angel into the pits of hell without being asked to.  But Spike and Gunn are two very vocal men, and they were all intelligent.  There wasn't even a hesitation.  Either could have said, "Angel, uh...don't you think this is a bit over the top?  I mean, we can't exactly even attempt fighting the good fight if we're all, you know, dead."  No one spoke up. Angel can't take full responsiblity for coming up with a plan, when three other, well, four (Illyria) parties helped him to carry it out.  He didn't put a gun to their head.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 17 2008 02:11 pm   #17Guest
Anaross did a wonderful compare and contrast on Spike and Angel on her LJ, including analyzing their friendship from season 5.

http://anaross.livejournal.com/56874.html#cutid1

http://anaross.livejournal.com/57184.html#cutid1

I started with only a couple season 3 eps, then got to know Angel on his show as it aired, so I've always liked him. Not always liked what he did, lol. I don't think Angel gets the actual "Champion" label until ep 2.1, "Judgment", where he stands in for the pregnant woman in front of the court to decide the fate of her baby. In an old-fashioned knight on a horse duel.
I don't mind comparing their personalities, but asking me to choose who's better is like asking me to choose a child or sibling I'm going to favor.....squicky.....Once Spike had his moment to win in "Destiny", I see he and Angl on equal footing as men, so they can continue on without the competition. At least no more than is natural for friends/brothers.
Angel's the pessimist, Spike's the idealist. They're going to have different approaches to things. Would they both do anything for the people they truly love? Yeah. That's heroic right there.

CM
Jun 17 2008 05:01 pm   #18Guest
Does the fact that Spike never changed his name mean that he doesn't feel as much remorse as Angel did?
Jun 17 2008 07:45 pm   #19Eowyn315
As for the whole getting LA sucked into LA, well, I've said this before on some other thread, but Wesley, Gunn, Lorne and Spike all made a choice.
Very true. A lot of people like to blame Angel solely for the decision (including Angel himself), but no one objected or told him he was crazy. And we know they're capable of it, because they all confronted him in "Power Play" when they thought he was evil - and it was in fact this plan that changed their minds. I remember seeing a post-NFA fic where Spike was furious at Angel for creating this mess, and I couldn't believe that the author (and Spike himself) could see Spike as blameless. Not a single person in that room has cause to rebuke Angel for making the decision, or for any consequences that might have come from it. They were all there, too, and not a single one spoke out against it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 17 2008 08:27 pm   #20Guest
And Angel started that whole plan because of the vision Cordy gave him, so to everyone but Spike, that really added weight to the plan. Angel told them all they could go if they wanted. It was a total free will decision - just like Connor showing up to help at W&H was.

They could be mad at Angel only if they found out he lied and snowed them all, which he didn't.

CM
Jun 17 2008 09:08 pm   #21LisFayte
When Spike, Wes, Gunn, Lorne and Illyria decided to throw in with Angel, the whole WR&H thing was pretty much a done deal, they could have left, but there still would have been the fight, so they chose the lesser of two evils, they wanted to minize the damage as much as possible, so really, they had no choice. there are two things that Angel did that didn't sit very well with me, one was his killing Drogan, a warrior of light, he said they would have killed him anyway, but he could have fought for him. The other thing is having Lorne kill Lindsay, that seemed pretty hypocritical to me, Angel could have given him the chance to change, lord knows Angel had enough chances.
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings

Come to challengespuffy  post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Jun 17 2008 09:31 pm   #22Guest
When Spike, Wes, Gunn, Lorne and Illyria decided to throw in with Angel, the whole WR&H thing was pretty much a done deal, they could have left, but there still would have been the fight, so they chose the lesser of two evils, they wanted to minize the damage as much as possible, so really, they had no choice.

Again, I disagree.  There's always a choice.  Lorne's choice was to walk away after the whole Lindsey incident, and honestly, he didn't even have to do that.  None of them had to stay.  In fact, none of them had to come to W&H in the first place--cept for Spike.  He would've ended up wherever Angel was, since he was sent there...even so, he didn't have to stay.  Just like Harmony didn't have to sell out Angel to the Baldwin dude.  Everyone had free will.  You may not like your options, but they're still there all the same.

Also, there only would have been the big fight if Angel took out all of W&H's generals--if the others had vetoed his plan, then the big fight never would have went down.  It was a slow burn until Angel decided he had had enough, and with his friend's aid, stoked the fire to a big friggin' inferno.  And again, that aid was not mandatory.  As Eowyn said, he asked who wanted to leave, and they all raised their hands.

~Scarlet
Jun 17 2008 09:32 pm   #23Guest
When Spike, Wes, Gunn, Lorne and Illyria decided to throw in with Angel, the whole WR&H thing was pretty much a done deal, they could have left, but there still would have been the fight, so they chose the lesser of two evils, they wanted to minize the damage as much as possible, so really, they had no choice.

Again, I disagree.  There's always a choice.  Lorne's choice was to walk away after the whole Lindsey incident, and honestly, he didn't even have to do that.  None of them had to stay.  In fact, none of them had to come to W&H in the first place--cept for Spike.  He would've ended up wherever Angel was, since he was sent there...even so, he didn't have to stay.  Just like Harmony didn't have to sell out Angel to the Baldwin dude.  Everyone had free will.  You may not like your options, but they're still there all the same.

Also, there only would have been the big fight if Angel took out all of W&H's generals--if the others had vetoed his plan, then the big fight never would have went down.  It was a slow burn until Angel decided he had had enough, and with his friend's aid, stoked the fire to a big friggin' inferno.  And again, that aid was not mandatory.  As Eowyn said, he asked who wanted to leave, and they all raised their hands.

~Scarlet
Jun 17 2008 11:57 pm   #24nmcil
No one spoke up. Angel can't take full responsiblity for coming up with a plan, when three other, well, four (Illyria) parties helped him to carry it out. He didn't put a gun to their head.

Absolutely Right - but what I question is not that his warriors followed him - but that as a leader he placed them in the position to begin with.  How was he suppose to do all this "take on the circle" without having his team accept the job?  His plans depend on their acceptance - what would happen to all his plans without assistance?  Angel himself describes his attack as one that would only be temporary ( anyway that is the impression I got, correct me if I am wrong) - 

The Leaders do have a much greater responsibility, and a vital part of that responsibility is seeing that the people you lead into a battle & struggle go into the fight based on some extremely well thought out plan or as a last resort - and for a good reason.  Losing all your warriors and yourself for a temporary, albeit  grand stand, is most certainly open to hard questioning and criticism.  I still maintain that this was Angel's Grand Play based on a great deal of trauma with Connor and all his existence as a vampire and his role of Champion and that his last grand gesture was not something that was good for his warriors or a particularly good strategy - 

Shelby Foote, that great author and Civil War historian stated, and sorry I have to paraphrase - that he felt had the Confederates made greater success in their struggles, The Northerners would simply have brought out another hand and more resources into play - the North had the advantage of far superior powers available to them that they could simply call forth - and we see that LAHell was the result of Angel's grand play.  Now, will Angel/Angelus end up being placed in a position in this comic season to make a new drawing and make a really new and important page on the Big Picture of the Sr. Partners - another question entirely.  

When Spike told Angel/Angelus he had entered into The Belly of the Beast he was right - and what great contrast to go from Angelus killing The Beast  and then to step into not only a beast belly but a beast castle.  I think that Angel/Angelus makes his own hell both consciously and unconsciously -

I for one am very excited to see where Joss Whedon takes all of this.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 18 2008 12:21 am   #25nmcil
I guess if we really stretched this we could actually blame all this on Illyria and her Powers and Rulers lecture she gives Angel/Angelus -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 18 2008 12:44 am   #26Guest
The plan came from Cordy's vision she passed to Angel when they kissed. Sure, the interpretation is up to Angel based on what he saw, but that's WHY he came up with the plan - what he saw basically told him he had to, he felt compelled. Angel might have been able to take them out in surgical strikes, himself, but it would have taken longer and more preparation, leaving him more open to get caught.........but also isn't dramatic enough for a TV finale. And he knew Lindsey would turn on them once the Circle was out of the way. (The way David played it is just like this, with simple certainty. Angel says it as just a simple matter of fact.) The Lindsey of Season 5 could not be trusted.

CM
Jun 18 2008 02:30 am   #27LisFayte
I think Cordy's vision was to show Angel what whould happen if he did take on the Senior Partners, and guess what, that is exactly what happened. And as for everyone choosing to follow Angel, they did that based on what Angel told them about the vision, that the world would end if they didn't go along, but there was one of the players that had no choice....Drogan
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings

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Jun 18 2008 04:06 am   #28Eowyn315
The Leaders do have a much greater responsibility, and a vital part of that responsibility is seeing that the people you lead into a battle & struggle go into the fight based on some extremely well thought out plan or as a last resort - and for a good reason.
Have you ever considered that Angel's plan might have actually been the best option? What were their other choices? They could stay at Wolfram & Hart and continue to be manipulated, fooling themselves that they're doing good fighting evil from the inside, but even Angel recognizes (because of Cordy's wake-up call) that he's not winning that battle. Their future, if they'd done nothing but the status quo, would end in the corruption of them all.

They can't leave Wolfram & Hart - surely the Senior Partners would kill them, not to mention the binding contracts. If employees can be forced to work even after their death, there's really no escaping them.

Angel could perhaps try the surgical strike that CM mentioned - but how long would that last? How many of the Black Thorn do you think he could take out before the Senior Parters realized it was him and put a stop to it? One, maybe two? The only way to cause maximum damage - to have any impact at all - was to take them all out in one fell swoop.

It was a calculated risk. Angel knew the Senior Partners would rain down their full wrath - on him, and on his teammates. He expected it, and he accepted it, as did they all. He couldn't possibly have predicted that they'd send an army that would kill innocents, or that the city would be plunged into hell. You can't really hold someone responsible for something if they have no idea it's going to happen.

In hindsight, maybe it was a bad idea. But maybe it was also the only idea. You don't always fight because you know you're going to win. You fight because it's the right thing to do, because allowing evil to thrive unimpeded is something you can't live with. Angel isn't the only champion out there, and the battle doesn't end if he dies. Others will rise to take his place. (I can't help thinking of this bit from Les Miserables, maybe because I just saw it recently:

Let us die facing our foes
Make them bleed while we can
Make them pay through the nose
Make them pay for every man
Let others rise to take our place, until the earth is free!


I still maintain that this was Angel's Grand Play based on a great deal of trauma with Connor
That doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. For the first time in his life, Connor is actually in a good place. He's stable, well-adjusted, and he and Angel are getting along really well. Why would Angel suddenly throw all that away? Why would he be more traumatized now than he was at any other point in the season? I don't think this has anything to do with Connor - in fact, I think Angel makes this choice despite his relationship with Connor, which is newly rediscovered and the best it's ever been. A year earlier, he was willing to sacrifice everything for Connor; now, he's sacrificing his relationship with Connor for this mission. IMO, it only shows that this mission to take out the Black Thorn must have been really damn important, to give up the relationship he'd always wanted with his son.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 18 2008 07:01 am   #29nmcil

I still maintain that this was Angel's Grand Play based on a great deal of trauma with Connor

By this I mean that his life and what happens to Connor did play an important part of the choices he makes - Connor and all the endless trauma Angel along with all the AI Team and Connor experienced had a huge effect on Angel, how could the theme of Control and Power, and what his complete lack of those elements with all the happens to Connor, not be a huge motivating factor on his perception of how he can and does function in this world - 

Their future, if they'd done nothing but the status quo, would end in the corruption of them all.

But weren't they tainted already by simply moving into W&H?  Any work, irrespective of the good they accomplished, there would still have been hundreds of acts that did a great deal of harm from the connections of that firm - the perfect example, IMO, is Knox's theme that he is not the boss or directing what happens with the work done in their department, he only works there.   They were bound to be either personally corrupted or be used  by the powers at play at W&H as was Fred. 

In the very first page of AATF - Angel describes his taking a stand  based on a girl being killed and he states it all started with a girl which I take to be references to Fred and Cordelia.  How does this connect  back to his "Grand Stand" and strategy, how much is personal agenda and how much is effective strategy?  Of Course, stratgeby by hind sight is the best possible way to go and I know that I am doing just that - But I firmly believe that based on what we saw in in the Connor Arc and Season 5,  that Angel made a terrible mistake in taking his stand against the Black Thorne but that his choice to go to Wolfram and Hart was filled with potential disaster from the first -

Following is from "HOME" - and why I think Angel has much to answer for  -  his choice to change everything to give Connor his second chance - and while we know that most parents will do everything they can to save the life of their children - do they have the right to sacrifice the lives of others?  Angel wanted to continue his work as Champion and player for the forces of light but  his primary choice is the saving of Connor; why he makes that deal that takes him to W&H.   Didn't Angel at this point in time have the moral obligation to his warriors to tell  the truth about the deal he makes with Lilah?  We know that everyone makes their own decision but they were fundamentally changed by this point - Gunn most certainly wants to go - Lorne seems pretty fine with it too but Fred and Wesley are still ambivalent -  Interesting song that Lorne is signing.

LORNE: (singing) Could be...who knows? There's something due any day I will know right away soon as it shows (Fred walks into the lobby) It may come cannonballin' down from the sky gleaming inside... Welcome back, Fred (talking, hugs her) Hi. Hey. (starts dancing with her) Oh, well, let me tell you, when this cruise ship sets sail, I will be on the Lido deck. You know, I mean, it's unbelievable. Secrets of the universe, like Siegfried, evil; Roy, not so much. Oh, and balance? Very, very important.

(Lonre spins Fred out, and she bumps into Wesley)

FRED: Uh, heh—ooh! Uh... guess we're all straggling back, some more straggly-like than others. Are you—?

WESLEY: Just, uh... a lot to take in.

(The elevator bell rings, Gunn steps out.)

FRED: You look... did they make you taller?

GUNN: I'm doing this. Hope it's not just me, but if it is, that's all right, too.

WESLEY: As much as it pains me to admit it, there's probably a great deal we could accomplish with the resources available here.

FRED: I can't believe it. Are—are you saying we should take the deal?

ANGEL: I already took it.

FRED: Angel, what—what?

WESLEY: You took the deal?

ANGEL: Executive decision.

WESLEY: I didn't think you'd—

LILAH: Know a silver platter when he's handed one? I'm impressed with the lot of you. Team Angel, all growed up.

ANGEL: (to Lilah) Is it taken care of?

LILAH: Cordelia's safe and sound, probably getting a manicure and a blow dry as we speak.

FRED: You found Cordy? And she's—

LILAH: Still in a coma. But hey, it doesn't mean she can't look her best. (to Angel) She'll receive the finest care, medical and metaphysical. If there is a way to get her back, we'll find it.

ANGEL: Good. Just one more piece of business. I got to see him.

LILAH: I'm sorry, Angel, but that wasn't part of the deal.

ANGEL: Value of compromise. Remember, Lilah? I need to see him.

LILAH: You're the boss. (hands Angel the file and amulet) There'll be a limo waiting outside. It'll take you to see Connor.

ANGEL: (softly) Thank you.

(walks out the door)

FRED: Who's Connor?




 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 18 2008 07:27 am   #30Scarlet Ibis
his choice to change everything to give Connor his second chance - and while we know that most parents will do everything they can to save the life of their children - do they have the right to sacrifice the lives of others? 

Well, by saving Connor, and erasing his memory along with the memory of him from his friends' minds actually saved people.  Before Angel did that, Connor was going to blow up himself, and a bunch of innocent people. Angel's deal with Lilah and W&H didn't involve the AI team directly--they were offered jobs at W&H sure, but in the end, they all individually chose to take a big bite out of that apple all on their own.  In fact, they each tried to sneak away from the Hotel to even go to Wolfram and Hart, and saw each other in the limo.

As for "it all started with a girl," he could've been referring to Buffy.  Hell, he could've been refering to Darla--if it weren't for her, he would have died of syphilis before he hit age 30.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 18 2008 11:44 am   #31nmcil

Well they all certainly paid an extreme price for their choice to accept the Sr. Partner's offer - some found their way back to honor and control of their own lives and others died -

I have to watch the last two episode today - as far as Angel's choice to accept the offer and service of exchange - how viewers interpret that act, either for good or bad, is just going to have join the list of "agree to disagree" - his actions took a lot of people with him - unless all those citizens of LA were playing with the devils at W&H - they got a really bad conclusion to his Lilah and Sr. Partners Deal -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 18 2008 06:42 pm   #32Guest

I always assumed the "started with a girl" quote was about Buffy. He wasn't on the path to being a hero until Whistler showed him the Slayer. It just makes the most sense.

The construct around Connor was shattered, so those months of not knowing ended, and anyone too offended by what Angel did could have walked. Just looking at that situation, it was never meant to last - Fate still intervened to fulfill the prophecy Sahjahn tried to save himself from. Frankly, I think the conclusion of the series and what could be dreamt up afterwards has always been meant to be - the Apocalypse everybody knew was coming. The PTBs sent a vision, the SPs went in with way more force than necessary - Angel and Co. are chess pieces, all of LA is a chess piece for higher beings with too much time on their hands and too many controls issues. They're ready to see who comes out on top when their differing philosophies are set in motion - humans or demons, order vs. chaos, free will vs. slavery.

CM

Jun 18 2008 07:11 pm   #33nmcil
I think the conclusion of the series and what could be dreamt up afterwards has always been meant to be

Some presentation of this LAHELL would have been the next TV season - and the idea of chess or game, particularly with Angel/Angelus, is applicable.  It came to me from this discussion just how much Angel/Angelus has always been pulled along his existence by guides in the pivotal circumstances of his life - Darla brings him into his vampire life, Whistler & Doyle are his "change sides" guides, Buffy is his mother/creator guide, Lilah acts like another guide into the underground/hades realms, Cordelia is very much a guide figure as well - Does Wesley take on the guide symbol now or is LAHELL his final time to be his own man?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 18 2008 07:36 pm   #34Eowyn315
But weren't they tainted already by simply moving into W&H? Any work, irrespective of the good they accomplished, there would still have been hundreds of acts that did a great deal of harm from the connections of that firm
I don't understand this argument. You're saying they were already tainted by working for W&H, so rather than acknowledge that W&H is corrupting them and taking a stand against it (even if it means their death) they should just stay there and go on the way they have been? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Whether or not they should've gone to W&H in the first place is a completely different question, and making a wrong decision there doesn't place blame for NFA. Yes, if they'd never taken the deal, they never would've ended up in the alley, but again, you're making judgments based on hindsight. Regardless of the reasons Angel made the deal, the very scene you quoted shows that the others thought they could make a difference at W&H. It turned out they were wrong. Surely, if they'd known what would happen, they wouldn't have done it, but you can't blame them for consequences they couldn't foresee.
The construct around Connor was shattered, so those months of not knowing ended, and anyone too offended by what Angel did could have walked.
That's a really good point, CM. The fans like to judge Angel harshly for "mind raping" his friends - but the friends themselves don't seem to have been all that upset about it. Even Wesley, who was so desperate to find out the truth, doesn't condemn Angel once he gets his memories back.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 18 2008 08:28 pm   #35Scarlet Ibis
In regards to the whole mind swipe thing, it was to my understanding it only affected those within close proximity of the orb, which was why Angel was unsure if Connor's memories were restored or not.  Either way, removing his son from his friend's memories for a greater good, to save him, isn't really something I would think his friends would sweat his balls for.  In fact, soon after joining, Gunn willingly has the people at W&H go into his head, as does Lorne to remove his sleep.  Also, it wasn't as if Angel did anything to modify their behavior in any way, or erase any arguments they have had in the past for his own gain like some other characters we know...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 18 2008 09:19 pm   #36Guest
The it started with a girl could even have referred to the gypsy girl who was the whole reason he was cursed because if he hadn't killed her doing good wouldn't have even occurred to him.
Jun 18 2008 09:36 pm   #37LisFayte
When Angel erased Conner from everyone's minds, this was not the first time he had done something like that, remember when he took the day back? His reasoning for having the day taken back and being a vampire again is because the Oracles warned  him that without his help Buffy would die. Well Buffy died anyway, but Angel wasn't there for her, he was off saving the other love of his (un)life. When Angel mind wiped everyone, Wes didn't remember running off with Conner, but Angel still resented him for it, and Wes didn't know what he had done wrong.
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings

Come to challengespuffy  post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Jun 18 2008 11:45 pm   #38Guest
I never understood if taking away the memories of Connor did affect people's behavior or not, because our experiences and what we learn through them makes us who we are, and taking out such a huge part of everyone's lives... Like, how did everyone remember Wesley becoming an outcast if the reason, Connor, was no longer in their minds? When Wes and Fred are getting together, Wes asks Gunn if it's alright and Gunn says something like "A year ago you wouldn't have asked me that. A man becomes civilized." -But neither of them knew the real reason for Wes getting kicked out of AI and ignored and becoming so different and rougher and more attractive (hee). Plus, I think only Wesley, the part of Illyria that was Fred's mind, and Connor got the memories of that time back after the orb broke.

I agree that Angel didn't force the others to go with him into the last big stand in NFA, but he has the responsibility as the Leader who proposed such a plan. What got to me about it was that he didn't give the others the choice in helping come up with the plan, didn't give them information or ask their advice when we know they are experienced and intelligent people willing to make sacrifices. Instead, Angel made up his own plan and lied and manipulated his own team for a very long time until it had already started moving forward and he was so deep into it, like giving the 'holy' baby to the Brotherhood and killing Drogan, that when he finally told the team and gave them the option to choose, there were hardly any options left. He manipulated them into a corner, and then pretended he was being fair and treating them as equals by giving them the choice after he set it up that HIS plan seemed like the only logical choice. He didn't force them to fight, they could have run away and left him to die trying to save the baby he put in danger and kill the Black Thorn on his own without anywhere near enough manpower, and then they could be attacked by W&H for running away or breaking contract or whatever. 
I've never read the graphic novel of Angel, though I'm planning to, so I don't know about what the writers made the characters do or say about it, but I felt they changed Spike a lot through season seven of BtVS and five of AtS so I don't know.
Jun 19 2008 02:59 am   #39Guest
But weren't they tainted already by simply moving into W&H? Any work, irrespective of the good they accomplished, there would still have been hundreds of acts that did a great deal of harm from the connections of that firm

Sorry, I should have tried to be more clear - what I meant is, that in my personal opinion, if you accept work with a company that engages in violence or produces weapons for war, you  by default become part of the cycle of that business - While Angel and all the AI Team did have control over their personal projects - how many other services and  actions from the business were still taking place?  Even with all their good intentions - they were in the playing field of a proven element for destruction and promotion of very negative things let loose in their world.   There is no question that the AI Team had excellent intentions and did much to try and control and manipulate the W&H normal state of business - But I still maintain that by working with W&H, even with all the good they did, they are still involved with a firm that did some very nasty stuff. 

I guess from my very narrow perspective I can't help but think that they should never have gone there to W&H  - perhaps I am being totally stupid and narrow minded about Angel but I think he was faced with the ultimate worst case scenario for any parent - the death and destruction of his child and that he falls to the temptation offered by The Senior Partners - I am sure that most people faced with that situation would have done the same - LOVE for children has to be the most powerful motivator for the majority of human beings. 

I know that most people would think I border on the insane or am a heartless woman without compassion for Angel or Connor  - but Angel makes a deal with the devil because he will not face the death of his child and he paid for his decision  as did the rest of the AI TEAM for their choices. 

Someone posted that everyone chose to go along with the plan - and for the drama and story telling of the series, it makes perfect sense- but in the real world, IMO, that would have been the time that a good "what are you crazy?" - why not try for surgical strikes or keep trying to change W&H by small increments?  It did not have to go down this way.  I don't know how the AI TEAM could have removed themselves from W&H and what kind of working arrangements were actually made with contracts.

Seems that I don't need to worry about Angel's Championhood - apparently things might  just  work out  in LAHELL -

Jun 19 2008 03:08 am   #40Guest

The only person he could have brought in on that plan that wouldn't act different is Wes. Gunn, Lorne, and Fred are either too open or too bad a liars to carry out a long-standing plot. And we don't know that it wasn't a part of the vision that Angel was specifically told to start alone.

Since Connor's "parents" no longer remembered him, I assume that everything changed for the construct dissolved. I'd be willing to bet the blocks on the group's memories would start crumbling if they tried to access related memories. Especially since the mage that created the spell is now dead.

Angel didn't resent Wesley anymore, so much as feel uncomfortable with his own memories. Even with the anger gone, he and Wes were no longer close, so it's awkward for Angel. But as soon as they talk about it, he's not judging Wes anymore. He says that Wes was just doing what he thought was right at the time, like he always does. There's no bitterness or resentment in his tone. And if he resented Wes, he wouldn't have been talking to him about if to date Nina, either. Angel still confided in him.

The original plan for Season 6 was to have them end up in another dimension, a hellish dimension, at the end of NFA and have to fight their way back to LA all season, and band together again like they'd just started to. The overall point of AtS is "family gets you through the bad times of real life". They're a family they created together, not by blood, but no less bonded. (probably more) I don't know why they chose to take LA into a hell dimension for the comics, besides it looking cool to comic geeks. I'm not keeping up with them a lot, as I prefer the writing team AtS had for the show. I'm pretty sure the smaller storylines have changed from what the show originally had in mind for after NFA.

I seem to find that a lot of people who originally decided they didn't like Angel are those who started with the first 3 seasons of BtVS, where Buffy is painted as the sympathetic hero, the vulnerable girl. The Buffy I started with was Season 4 at the same time I started with Season 1 AtS - and anyone I've talked to who did the same is a lot more fair to Angel. It really starts to tweak me when fans want to pile everything on him as all his fault and the others are saints, when that isn't real life...it isn't true for AtS definitely. He did grow as a character and he's not exactly an asshole, so it'd be nice to see a little less prejudice. I think it's no secret by now that I prefer AtS as a show, anyway.

CM

Jun 19 2008 04:15 am   #41Scarlet Ibis
Well, if one were to blame Angel solely for taking his team down to Hell, because he was a poor planner, then technically, isn't Buffy just as guilty, if not more so for going out to that vineyard?  Her entire team spoke up against going, and she forced them to go anyway, resulting in the deaths of others and loss of body parts, whereas with Angel, he had the full suport of his group--no dissention in the ranks whatsoever.  Then some want to complain about Angel making an executive decision to remove Connor from his friends' memories, where with Buffy purposely put a power (derived from a demon) into a bunch of girls worldwide without their consent.  It just seems to me that Angel's getting the short end of the stick here...

Also, I don't think the memory of Connor was removed from his parents' minds.  Either way, both sets of memories would still be there.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 19 2008 08:47 am   #42Guest
Connor says "Yeah, they didn't know me." He went to his fake parents, and they were like "Who?" He tells Angel.

And yeah, exactly......a lot more people get on Angel's case for that than Buffy's for hers.

CM
Jun 19 2008 08:58 am   #43Scarlet Ibis
That's messed up they (Connor's parents) didn't remember him.  It should have been like with Dawn--even though the spell was lifted, the memories should have stayed, especially the real ones when he was actually there...  But wait, wasn't he still in school or something?  Technically, shouldn't those people not remember him either?  Meh, I won't be picky.  There weren't that many plot holes, unlike this other season finale...I'll cut the guy a break :P

ETA:  I started watching Buffy right from the very beginning (including when the movie first came out), but I still get/like Angel, and don't feel as if he should be blamed for, well, a lot of stuff he's blamed for.  It's a gray area, and I get that.

Xander too--he's judged quite critically a lot of the time.  He's had a lot of hurdles to leap, and he doesn't get things straight away....Okay, I'll save that for another thread.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 19 2008 10:20 am   #44Guest
He did grow as a character and he's not exactly an asshole, so it'd be nice to see a little less prejudice. I think it's no secret by now that I prefer AtS as a show, anyway.

Can't speak for other readers and their posts regarding Angel - but I am not prejudiced against Angel - I have a real interest in the character and I have always been extremely interested in the choices this character makes - primarily because from my perspective of the series, Angel/Angelus represented our darker side and all the troubles that people make for themselves.  It is important to remember that most of the viewers that have reservations about Angel have thought about him a great deal and what motivates this character - I don't think it is fair to say that we are prejudiced against the Angel character - that we question his conduct and his choices does not mean that we cannot and acknowledge  all the good things that he has done, but with all the good stuff is also some really bad choices.
Jun 19 2008 10:42 am   #45Guest
The original plan for Season 6 was to have them end up in another dimension, a hellish dimension, at the end of NFA and have to fight their way back to LA all season, and band together again like they'd just started to. The overall point of AtS is "family gets you through the bad times of real life". They're a family they created together, not by blood, but no less bonded.

The Comic Season seems to be going along this path, at least for now.  I wish that we all read the comic books so that they could become part of the discussions of NFA -
Jun 19 2008 11:27 am   #46nmcil
One of the things that I have questions and reservations about Angel's choice is about going over to W & H -

Granted, all the characters make their own choice to go there but as their leader why not simply tell them the truth about what he had to do to save Connor - why the big secret, I think we can all agree that his team would have understood and supported his choice -  Didn't the people that he worked with all those years and that served together with him in the struggle to do some good in the world deserve the truth?  That move to accept the W&H corporation is not like just moving into another building - that was a huge and fundamental change for their lives and knowing the truth behind his accepting that deal, IMO, should have been told.

I LOVE that all the AI TEAM went along with his Grand Stand Plan - that they were all wonderful and brave and offered their lives at his bidding - In the end, there will be many viewers who think Angel's game plan was not a good thing and that going to W&H ended up only in disaster.  On the other side there will be the viewers that think it was good and that they did not have much choice by the time of NFA. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 19 2008 12:44 pm   #47Guest
I always had the feeling that Angel wasn't allowed to tell before or after the fact. Always had this vibe that it was contracted to be secret indefinitely. I think Angel was paranoid about anyone knowing about Connor's real identity because they and the boy would be a big target. Maye it was even a condition of the mage that no one know who wasn't part of the contract....  But I always got the vibe that it wasn't just safest for Connor to put him in that construct, but safer for everyone else not to know about it. Just my intuition the whole season.

Thinking logistically - if he told or asked the team before the spell, either they have to be left with their memories, too (which might be a lot more difficult for the spellcaster), or they have to willingly give up every memory associated with the boy. There's a LOT that cascaded from Connor's existence. Granted, it's most painful for Wes, but I think he wouldn't want to be meddled with, either. I wish they'd had the time to show how he thought he ended up with Lilah, because their whole relationship came about because of Connor.
If Angel tried to explain after the spell, then how far does he go? How vague can he be and still have them believe it? And would they really accept it when they don't have the memories for context.....most people would insist on having their memories back because they're theirs, so it puts Angel between a rock and a hard place.
Wes and Gunn and Fred were getting along a lot better without those memories. The resentments and hurts were gone, or buried so deep, they weren't conscious of them. Fred and Gunn hadn't been on comfortable terms since he killed a man for her. And Wes hadn't been a best friend since he'd taken and lost Connor. The spell actually benefitted their friendship.

Scarlet - yeah, he was still enrolled at the university. Connor and Angel both didn't get it, but Connor wasn't going to knock it. It didn't have to make sense. But he lost his parents and his girlfriend, the people specifically arranged to feel for him by the spell. Oooo, I guess that's why the university still kept him - it wasn't personal. He's a name on a file, and the payments are real from W&H. I think the paper trail was real. The spell just wipes the memories of those who've interacted with him, and creates feelings in new people for his new life. Outside of giving Connor himself the reboot, of course.

CM
Jun 19 2008 07:48 pm   #48nmcil
How vague can he be and still have them believe it? And would they really accept it when they don't have the memories for context.....most people would insist on having their memories back because they're theirs, so it puts Angel between a rock and a hard place.

This changing of memories, it is vital point and, IMHO,  should not be accepted as "a necessary evil" - Peoples lives are made up from their memories and their experiences - to take them away is to take away part of their lives and powers of perception.  Even with all the terrible things in our lives, I bet most of us we never want to change them because it makes us what we are today - for good or bad, that is our life and we learned and developed from all of it.  Yes, not all their memories were changed, but some really important things were.

It is entirely possible that Angel was not allowed to disclose his disclose his arrangements - nor do we know who actually signed a contract of perpetuity - Gunn was certainly on board with everything and then offers his own life in order to redeem himself - Fred is killed and is total victim - Lorne, we don't know but I suspect that Lorne knew very early on that Fred was in danger, Wesley, based on AFTF, is connected to the Sr. Partners now - Spike, works with the AI TEAM, not for W&H so is not part of the original Connor deal.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 19 2008 08:15 pm   #49Eowyn315
That's messed up they (Connor's parents) didn't remember him. It should have been like with Dawn--even though the spell was lifted, the memories should have stayed, especially the real ones when he was actually there...
The spell was never actually lifted with Dawn. Everyone knew that Dawn was the Key, because they'd been told so, but there was never any indication that they were able to remember their real memories, either in addition to or in place of the ones with Dawn inserted.

I also don't think that bit about Connor's parents not remembering him is accurate. I do, however, remember that at the end of the episode, Wesley and Illyria have a conversation about having two sets of memories, and it confuses Illyria. Wes tells her to just block one out. Also, this is the last scene of "Origin":

ANGEL: How's your dad?

CONNOR: He's fine. They're releasing him now. I should warn you—he's pretty pissed. I told him that you took me out demon fighting and, uh, almost got me killed. He wants to have a talk with you.

ANGEL: All right. I'll, uh...

CONNOR: I'm kidding! Man, you gotta lighten up. He thinks we spent the whole night doing tests. I told him I could bench press, like, 1,000 pounds.

ANGEL: What are you gonna tell them about... who you are?

CONNOR: The truth, more or less. I'll tell them that I'm different. I'll tell them it's... actually a good thing. I'll tell them to stop worrying so much.

ANGEL: Well, they're parents.

CONNOR: Yeah, I know. They'll feel a lot better knowing you're looking out
for me.


Doesn't sound to me like his parents don't remember him.....
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.