 |
BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
The X Factor, as in Xander...
Jun 19 2008 09:14 am #1Scarlet Ibis
There are three particular guys in the Buffy/Angel verses who get the "Oh, I just vomitted a bit in my mouth" reaction when mentioned. Okay, that was an embellishment, but you get my drift. The three of course are Angel, Xander and Riley. This thread's all about Xander.
Anyway.
I just wanted to say that I didn't think that Xander was so bad. Given the many crappy circumstances he was put in, I think he handled a lot of things like any normal person would, which would include, not very well in some cases, but better than most in others. So, here's the deal with this--I'm going to not write an essay on why I think Xander's A-okay, and instead, wait for the (what I assume to be) many replies that will come in about how much he sucks, how he's a hypocrit, etcetera, etcetera, and yada yada yada, and (hopefully) refute them one by one. Yes, I want a Xander debate; point counter point.
So let's have at then, shall we?
:P
Anyway.
I just wanted to say that I didn't think that Xander was so bad. Given the many crappy circumstances he was put in, I think he handled a lot of things like any normal person would, which would include, not very well in some cases, but better than most in others. So, here's the deal with this--I'm going to not write an essay on why I think Xander's A-okay, and instead, wait for the (what I assume to be) many replies that will come in about how much he sucks, how he's a hypocrit, etcetera, etcetera, and yada yada yada, and (hopefully) refute them one by one. Yes, I want a Xander debate; point counter point.
So let's have at then, shall we?
:P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Xander had his good points and his bad points, He was a very loyal friend, he was just an average person fighting supernatural forces. The talk he had with Dawn after she found out she wasn't a potential was so insightful. Xander also had his bad points, as everyone does, it made me mad that he went on and on about the almost rape of Buffy by Spike, when he had done the same thing while the hyena was in him, and he had no-one calling him a rapist and having no accountability for it. I get why he left Anya, but he could have went to her before the wedding and told her he needed more time rather than leaving her at the alter. One other thing that pissed me off about him was how he (and the others) treated Spike after Buffy was brought back, all summer long Spike had helped them patrol, but as soon as Buffy was back, Spike was once again on the outside. I feel that after season 7 Spike and Xander were starting to get along much better, and may have become friends if there had been more time.
I know that Xander's childhood was hard, but that still didn't keep him from being a happy person, so overall I liked Xander, just disliked some of the things he did over the years
I know that Xander's childhood was hard, but that still didn't keep him from being a happy person, so overall I liked Xander, just disliked some of the things he did over the years
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Jun 19 2008 09:38 am #3TammyDevil666
Sorry, I actually like Xander...lol! He's one of my favorite characters and I really don't think he was as bad as everyone makes him out to be. I hate how people make him in fictions, because I really don't think he was like that. Yes, he was a bit harsh when it came to Spike, but Spike was really no better. Yes, he was a bit of a hypocrite, coming down so hard on Spike for killing, yet always overlooking the fact that he was dating an ex-vengeance demon, one that has caused way more deaths than Spike has. I still can't help but love the guy, especially his yellow crayon speech and saving Willow, along with the world. I think he's just a misunderstood character. We all love Spike in here, so it's easy to hate Xander, but I'm probably the only one that finds like for all three, being Angel, Xander, and Riley. I hope there are others in here. I hate always feeling like I'm alone in that...lol!
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Xander is certainly a LOVE/HATE kind of guy. Who could not love and admire and respect his total loyalty and willingness to face death for his friends and loved ones. But I also don't ignore his oftentimes narrow mindedness and hypocritical tendencies. I think that he, like so many of the rest of us, wanted to see life through "selective morality" - and that is something that I think does nothing but harm. It is this "selective morality" that I find so offensive in his character. The reason that I find it so distasteful is the great power it has for extremely negative social dynamics. How easy it becomes to see Anya as acceptable, even while she has done for 1000 years what he finds utterly reprehensible and unforgivable in Spike. Project Xander's "selective morality" onto the social fabric and we begin to see how his narrow world view can do so much harm. Place yourself in a group that many Xander's of the world find unacceptable - instead of Spike you might be a non violent demon, or a homosexual, or an atheist, or a Pro-Choice advocate, or a particular religious group - it quickly becomes very important.
I might love and admire all the great things that come with Xander , but I deplore what his narrow world view brings into the social dynamics and this is the main reason that I can sometimes dislike him so much.
Having said all of this, I just watched Xander at his absolute best in "The Freshman" tonight - he played the true Hero for Buffy in this episode.
I might love and admire all the great things that come with Xander , but I deplore what his narrow world view brings into the social dynamics and this is the main reason that I can sometimes dislike him so much.
Having said all of this, I just watched Xander at his absolute best in "The Freshman" tonight - he played the true Hero for Buffy in this episode.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 19 2008 02:39 pm #5Guest
Guest
Since completing the series, I have gone back and watched it through again. Going back to the early seasons was an unpleassant surprise about Xander. I remember his wise-cracking and lame jokes and teenage hormones, but it felt like, knowing Buffy's later issues and insecurities and worries about judgement, all the jokes don't mean much compared to all the angry lectures and self-righteous speeches and vicious or spiteful jabs and a surprising amount targeting Buffy and not just Angel or whatever he was angry about. I think he mellowed a bit later on, probably because the writers felt they didn't have to consider his jealousy as part of a lot of what he said once Angel was gone, but there were a few times when it was so easy to fall back on hypocritical views that he did it easily. And I hated how he could treat Spike the same way we saw him treated by bullies in high school, only when he knew Spike couldn't fight back physically and then getting angry or lashing out when Spike fought back verbally, and acting like whatever Spike gets he deserves because he's evil and he's proving it by calling me names! So was Xander!
I do think there are good things about Xander, but I'm sure other people will bring them up later. I will say I felt his bravery took a hit after day after day of playing a cowardly bully who picks on someone hurting or 'weaker' unable to fight back.
I do think there are good things about Xander, but I'm sure other people will bring them up later. I will say I felt his bravery took a hit after day after day of playing a cowardly bully who picks on someone hurting or 'weaker' unable to fight back.
Jun 19 2008 02:50 pm #6slaymesoftly
Moderator
The character of Xander is, as most of us are, a flawed human. It's the one thing about him that makes him so easy to use in a story. You can write a story that emphasizes his courage, loyalty, basic decency, etc. and that makes him a great protagonist or best buddy. Or, you can emphasize his pettiness, hypocrisy, jealousy, etc. and make him the Iago of the story. He can be written well within character and still used as everything from the hero to the villain. Xander is really a gift to a writer! LOL
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Jun 19 2008 03:44 pm #7Guest
Guest
TammyDevil, you're not alone. I've also always liked all three. :)
Xander......I love the good parts about him. As far as his jokes and tastes go, he's a lot like most of my guy friends, so I always found him really funny for that stuff. The jealousy and protectiveness during the Angel years, I get. I do wish they had kept it to snark with Spike, and not made Xander the asshole unless Spike really provoked it. I *really* like Season 7 Xander. For Season 6, they could have kept his insecurities about marrying Anya, but otherwise made him be the one light of the season, and made things a lot more realistic. I think it would have been fantastic story to have him be the one that sees his friends are drowning in their crap, but he can't do anything about it because they're things they have to fix themselves......seeing everybody else's problems but blind to his own with Anya. Would've been real, and probably some fantastic acting for Nick.
Oh, well.... I guess the spot that really gets me is that he got away with summoning Sweet and paid no consequences for those who died. Even one episode of "oh, god, what did I do" wallowing would have at least said that he was sorry. I have no idea why they breezed by that, that early in the season.
CM
Xander......I love the good parts about him. As far as his jokes and tastes go, he's a lot like most of my guy friends, so I always found him really funny for that stuff. The jealousy and protectiveness during the Angel years, I get. I do wish they had kept it to snark with Spike, and not made Xander the asshole unless Spike really provoked it. I *really* like Season 7 Xander. For Season 6, they could have kept his insecurities about marrying Anya, but otherwise made him be the one light of the season, and made things a lot more realistic. I think it would have been fantastic story to have him be the one that sees his friends are drowning in their crap, but he can't do anything about it because they're things they have to fix themselves......seeing everybody else's problems but blind to his own with Anya. Would've been real, and probably some fantastic acting for Nick.
Oh, well.... I guess the spot that really gets me is that he got away with summoning Sweet and paid no consequences for those who died. Even one episode of "oh, god, what did I do" wallowing would have at least said that he was sorry. I have no idea why they breezed by that, that early in the season.
CM
Jun 19 2008 03:53 pm #8Scarlet Ibis
Excellent points all around! LisFayte's response may be the easiest to repsond to, since she brings up specific points, as well as Guest. So here goes...
it made me mad that he went on and on about the almost rape of Buffy by Spike, when he had done the same thing while the hyena was in him, and he had no-one calling him a rapist and having no accountability for it. Two things about this--one, I blame Buffy more for this misunderstanding. Xander is the type of guy where pretty much everything has to be spelled out for him, and it is Buffy who does not correct him on what occurred between she and Spike in the bathroom that night. That being said, the circumstances are completely different. For all intents and purposes, Xander did not have full use of his free will and mental faculties (then again, IMHO, neither did Spike). I think the eqivalent of Xander being possessed by that demon is like when the First was controlling Spike--they can't be held accountable for those actions. Furthermore, Xander had the opprotunity to take advantage of Buffy in "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered," and if it had ever been his intent to use her sexually, that would have been the time to do it. On that same token, in "Halloween," if Spike wanted to take advantage of Buffy sexually, when she was truly weak and helpless, that would have been the time to do it. Of course, that was never his intent either, and just goes to further show how much B.S. was in SR.
I get why he left Anya, but he could have went to her before the wedding and told her he needed more time rather than leaving her at the alter.
The thing is though, I think he still was going to go through with it. The straw that finally breaks the camel's back there was not only the demon who showed him his worst nightmare--a future where he becomes worst than his father, but before he calls it off for good, he looks at his abusive father, yelling at his mother. I'm pretty sure that becoming that man was one of his worst fears. Xander likes to hide behind jokes, but his childhood was pretty crappy. This is emphasized in some s3 ep, I think the one when Angel's haunted by the First, and Cordelia makes a pretty harsh remark about his family life. It really takes the wind out of his sails.
Which brings me to Guest.
Technically, the only time that Xander truly becomes hypocritical is when he starts to date Anya. However, because of his (and the Scoobies overall) black and white view of the logistics of morals, Anya's slate was more or less wiped clean due to the fact that she was human. Do I agree with that sentiment? Hell no--in fact, the fact that she lost her power center, and was back to her regular self only made me feel that if she had a soul, it never left once she became a demon, and that she did all of those horrible things cause she enjoyed it. Moving on....but again, the Scoobies were pretty provincial when it came to things like that. Soul=good, no soul= bad, when it's never that simple, be it in regards to a human or a demon (which the show proved almost every season with some evil, sick and twisted humans and atypical "monsters"). As for Xander being a bully to Spike, well, again, it was all verbal sparring. Spike has a mouth and more wit than Xander, so that never bothered me. He poked fun at Spike for being weak and helpless. Know who else did? Buffy. In fact, she would be considered more hypocritical than Xander because she knows what it's like to be super strong, and have that taken away. She was the only one to actually physically hurt Spike when he couldn't fight back (and sometimes, even when he could). The only time Xander puts his hands on Spike is in "Entropy," and his emotions were running high. I get the anger there, even if it was misplaced.
and finally--
One other thing that pissed me off about him was how he (and the others) treated Spike after Buffy was brought back, all summer long Spike had helped them patrol, but as soon as Buffy was back, Spike was once again on the outside.
This I can actually agree with. However, Xander is not the only one to blame. Spike slips through the cracks, but it's not as if the others didn't try to reel Spike in and say, "Hey, you're still apart of the team. Come hang with us." Cept for Dawn. In that regard, the rest of them are on pretty equal footing. The only thing that I ever truly disapproved of Xander doing one hundred and ten percent is his callous remark to Spike in "Afterlife," right after he leaves Buffy's house, accusing him of stalking her. That was sickening and uncalled for. I suppose the writers were setting up the "Spike gets excluded" theme for the rest of the season, but again, the others didn't have to allow that to happen. They just accepted his disappearance without question, which is why I blame all of them, and not just Xander's particular stupidity about that situation.
ETA: CM, the writers that season had a big problem with glossing over serious incidents, and it's no surprise to me that in regards to Xander and the Sweet thing that they played it off as comic relief, even though people were dying. I mean, if Xander had spoken up sooner, why, then we never would have had the gag about him going to hell as a demon bride, thus getting out of marrying his own (ex) demon bride. Ahem.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Overall, I never really liked the character of Xander. There were times that I felt bad for him, though. My reasons for disliking him are very shallow, so nothing intelligent can be said on my behalf.
From the first time I saw him, I thought he was very unattractive. Just, ew kinda ugh. The actor is not an ugly guy, so I think it has to do with the way they dressed him and the way they wrote him. Although, he's not my type. I don't like the lanky, broad shouldered type.
I'm always drawn to the bad guys and gals on a tv show. Xander always came off as a self-righteous good guy who whined too much.
The only time I really enjoyed watching him on the show was when he was with Cordelia. Oh, and the fight scene with Harmony. LOL!
From the first time I saw him, I thought he was very unattractive. Just, ew kinda ugh. The actor is not an ugly guy, so I think it has to do with the way they dressed him and the way they wrote him. Although, he's not my type. I don't like the lanky, broad shouldered type.
I'm always drawn to the bad guys and gals on a tv show. Xander always came off as a self-righteous good guy who whined too much.
The only time I really enjoyed watching him on the show was when he was with Cordelia. Oh, and the fight scene with Harmony. LOL!
I can't say that any of those really cause a "vomit in my mouth" reaction. In fact, there's hardly anyone in the Buffy or Angel verses that I really hate. So you'll get no debate from me, though I may end up chiming in on the pro-Xander side. Whatever the trend is in Spuffy fandom, I tend to take the other side. :)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
In fact, there's hardly anyone in the Buffy or Angel verses that I really hate.
Not even Kennedy? :-D
Not even Kennedy? :-D
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
I think Xander was initially created as a sort of the average man "stand-in" for Joss Whedon, then evolved into a whole lot more over the course of the series. Ferociously loyal and courageous to a fault, Xander also showed that "being brave" was a talent. That talent started out as comic relief, but it expanded to become crucial to telling these stories, I think.
For me, the lesson in Xander's character was that plenty of foolish and insane people are born "brave," but that real bravery comes when you know the deck is stacked against you and have something to lose, yet still race into the burning Kitten Factory. There were other brave characters, but most of them did what they did because of a sense of duty (Buffy, Giles) or because of a longing to fit in (Willow) or because of feelings of guilt and shame that have given them a low, almost suicidal self-image (Spike, Angel).
Xander also eventually became a fixer of broken things, and the rock that everyone depended on at one time or another. But in the game of "who represented what?" I think Buffy was Strength, Giles was Wisdom, Willow was Curiosity and Xander was Bravery. Season Six was about Willow, Xander and Warren as much as it was about Spike and Buffy. It was about regular humans and their choices. And let's not forget that it was Xander Harris who saved the world in Season 6 - the only human to single-handedly accomplish that in either series. He didn't do it armed with a sword or kung-fu kicks or a magic spell. The Xan-man did it with courage and love.
Go Xander!
For me, the lesson in Xander's character was that plenty of foolish and insane people are born "brave," but that real bravery comes when you know the deck is stacked against you and have something to lose, yet still race into the burning Kitten Factory. There were other brave characters, but most of them did what they did because of a sense of duty (Buffy, Giles) or because of a longing to fit in (Willow) or because of feelings of guilt and shame that have given them a low, almost suicidal self-image (Spike, Angel).
Xander also eventually became a fixer of broken things, and the rock that everyone depended on at one time or another. But in the game of "who represented what?" I think Buffy was Strength, Giles was Wisdom, Willow was Curiosity and Xander was Bravery. Season Six was about Willow, Xander and Warren as much as it was about Spike and Buffy. It was about regular humans and their choices. And let's not forget that it was Xander Harris who saved the world in Season 6 - the only human to single-handedly accomplish that in either series. He didn't do it armed with a sword or kung-fu kicks or a magic spell. The Xan-man did it with courage and love.
Go Xander!
Honestly (despite what anyone thinks) I don't dislike any characters on either Buffy or Angel. Okay, I don't care for Riley, but I don't hate him with a passion. Neither do I hate Angel. I actually like Xander, but like slaymesoftly said, because he is loyal yet jealous (and all those other human emotions that everyone has) he can be written as a good guy or someone who has leaped off the deep end to be the bad guy.
Now, do I find some of the characters harder to find a voice for? Well, that's a whole 'nother thread, isn't it?
Now, do I find some of the characters harder to find a voice for? Well, that's a whole 'nother thread, isn't it?
...Also, I don't much get why some people compare Xander to someone who is "intolerant" of different groups of people. To me that's like saying he was intolerant of giant man-eating bears.
If anything, Buffy Summers herself was the least tolerant of vampires on the show. Not only did she kill them by the score, she wavered between enjoying it very much and being bored stiff by it, as though she was pounding rivets at the widget factory. Xander didn't really think or care about souls very much, I think. That was something for other characters to obsess and debate about. Xander just knew his town was being eaten up by monsters and HOLY COW SOMEONE LET ONE OF THEM IN THE HOUSE!
If anything, Buffy Summers herself was the least tolerant of vampires on the show. Not only did she kill them by the score, she wavered between enjoying it very much and being bored stiff by it, as though she was pounding rivets at the widget factory. Xander didn't really think or care about souls very much, I think. That was something for other characters to obsess and debate about. Xander just knew his town was being eaten up by monsters and HOLY COW SOMEONE LET ONE OF THEM IN THE HOUSE!
Jun 19 2008 08:47 pm #15TammyDevil666
I don't really think there's anyone I hated, either, not even Kennedy. I didn't like her with Willow, but I never hated her. If I would choose anyone, it's probably Warren because he's the one that killed Tara, whether it be accidental or not. That guy always bugged me, he was a little freak. There were others that I disliked, but I don't know about hate. I liked Xander best in the very beginning, or the very end of the series. I have mixed feelings toward the middle.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Jun 19 2008 09:14 pm #16Scarlet Ibis
I actually didn't hate Warren. Or Riley--I thought he was too boring to hate. I didn't get Parker at all--he looked like Xander on crack, and was just slimy overall. And Kennedy? Did I hate her...I won't say that. However, I did wish for an ubervamp to just viciously kill her so she wouldn't be on the show anymore. She surpassed annoying, IMHO.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 20 2008 12:36 am #17pfeifferpack
Ahhh Xander! Quite flawed and complex and able to be twisted in story so believably to do both the heroic and the horrendous!
I could go on and on but will try to only highlight.
One the one hand he was loyal to those he loved. He truly didn't want to become the man his father was (and that childhood clearly moulded him). He was brave...no powers of any kind and precious few skills yet was willing to go into battles and apocalypse after B&A's to watch his friends backs.
Yes he had moments where he was as funny as he seemed to think himself.
For all his misplaced vitriole about Spike he took him in and even if he was far from gracious he at least did this, this was especially notable in S7 when Spike was not stable and Xander had ended the previous time in his company so hatefully.
And.....for me the kicker....in S7 he appeared to be actually maturing and growing. The simple act of placing a comforting hand on Spike's shoulder before the application of the Procrite stone in LMPTM show that he had begun to see Spike differently (just as his not whining when Buffy was clearly obsessed with getting Spike sorted be it after they found he was killing to after the FE had him was different as well. He said not a thing when Buffy was spending all her time in the basement and didn't complain when she rushed to check on Spike after they rescued him from the hot demon girl who tried to sacrifice him....very different frmo the Xander of the past). He actually had shown signs that he was going to turn out a decent human after all.
Others have already mentioned some major problems.
I didn't like his pettiness...the nasty way he bullied a chipped Spike. He was amzingly "brave" taunting a being who could have torn him apart without the chip and clearly that was WHY he dared to (signs of a budding bully). This no doubt comes from being the one with the kick me sign for years but it is a big character flaw.
He was inclined to bigotry....yes they contained it to vampires in his clearcut attitude (he always judged them based on those first encounters and on Angel so never saw or acknowledged the differences in Spike for example). His behavior towards Spike in S6 is particularily hateful to a being that should have earned better consideration after the battle with Glory and the summer without Buffy.
He never took responsibility when involved in genuine evil (the hyenna incident was badly handled all round and I hated the smirk and laugh attitude at the end! The worst...because there was no demon driving him then...was not speaking up immediately when Sweet came to town at his conjouring. PEOPLE DIED and he kept still! I don't remember any remorse either).
I could mention incidents going both ways till the cows come home but in short he was deeply flawed as were all the characters. He had layers and dimensions that cover the canvass and he was showing growth. As a writer I love him because I can make him do and say nearly anything and if I set it up right it will fly!
edited to add: I could add he was indecisive too especially where women were concerned. He was led into his sex act with Faith, led into a relationship with Cordy and with Anya without really forming any interest to begin. He wasn't too kind (verbally) to any of his "women". I got vibes he might have been equally attracted to males and reacted badly towards them when he was (Spike in particular...although he seemed to really take to Riley which I think might have partly been living vacariously through the "Super GI".)
Kathleen
I could go on and on but will try to only highlight.
One the one hand he was loyal to those he loved. He truly didn't want to become the man his father was (and that childhood clearly moulded him). He was brave...no powers of any kind and precious few skills yet was willing to go into battles and apocalypse after B&A's to watch his friends backs.
Yes he had moments where he was as funny as he seemed to think himself.
For all his misplaced vitriole about Spike he took him in and even if he was far from gracious he at least did this, this was especially notable in S7 when Spike was not stable and Xander had ended the previous time in his company so hatefully.
And.....for me the kicker....in S7 he appeared to be actually maturing and growing. The simple act of placing a comforting hand on Spike's shoulder before the application of the Procrite stone in LMPTM show that he had begun to see Spike differently (just as his not whining when Buffy was clearly obsessed with getting Spike sorted be it after they found he was killing to after the FE had him was different as well. He said not a thing when Buffy was spending all her time in the basement and didn't complain when she rushed to check on Spike after they rescued him from the hot demon girl who tried to sacrifice him....very different frmo the Xander of the past). He actually had shown signs that he was going to turn out a decent human after all.
Others have already mentioned some major problems.
I didn't like his pettiness...the nasty way he bullied a chipped Spike. He was amzingly "brave" taunting a being who could have torn him apart without the chip and clearly that was WHY he dared to (signs of a budding bully). This no doubt comes from being the one with the kick me sign for years but it is a big character flaw.
He was inclined to bigotry....yes they contained it to vampires in his clearcut attitude (he always judged them based on those first encounters and on Angel so never saw or acknowledged the differences in Spike for example). His behavior towards Spike in S6 is particularily hateful to a being that should have earned better consideration after the battle with Glory and the summer without Buffy.
He never took responsibility when involved in genuine evil (the hyenna incident was badly handled all round and I hated the smirk and laugh attitude at the end! The worst...because there was no demon driving him then...was not speaking up immediately when Sweet came to town at his conjouring. PEOPLE DIED and he kept still! I don't remember any remorse either).
I could mention incidents going both ways till the cows come home but in short he was deeply flawed as were all the characters. He had layers and dimensions that cover the canvass and he was showing growth. As a writer I love him because I can make him do and say nearly anything and if I set it up right it will fly!
edited to add: I could add he was indecisive too especially where women were concerned. He was led into his sex act with Faith, led into a relationship with Cordy and with Anya without really forming any interest to begin. He wasn't too kind (verbally) to any of his "women". I got vibes he might have been equally attracted to males and reacted badly towards them when he was (Spike in particular...although he seemed to really take to Riley which I think might have partly been living vacariously through the "Super GI".)
Kathleen
Not even Kennedy? :-D
Hey, I said "hardly anyone"! lol
Seriously, though, hate is such a strong word. I certainly dislike Kennedy, I thought she was all wrong for Willow, and I would've preferred the season without her, but I don't particularly feel any vile reaction to her, such as an urge to vomit or the desire to kill her a gruesome fashion in fanfic. I'd rather just ignore her completely than expend energy hating her.
If I would choose anyone, it's probably Warren
I think that's kind of a different situation. Warren's a villain - aren't we supposed to hate him? Granted, there are some villains who are just so cool you love them anyway, but I really think we're supposed to be disgusted by Warren. That's a completely different situation than someone like Xander or Riley or Kennedy, who was introduced as a good guy, and yet people hated them despite the writers' intentions.
Hey, I said "hardly anyone"! lol
Seriously, though, hate is such a strong word. I certainly dislike Kennedy, I thought she was all wrong for Willow, and I would've preferred the season without her, but I don't particularly feel any vile reaction to her, such as an urge to vomit or the desire to kill her a gruesome fashion in fanfic. I'd rather just ignore her completely than expend energy hating her.
If I would choose anyone, it's probably Warren
I think that's kind of a different situation. Warren's a villain - aren't we supposed to hate him? Granted, there are some villains who are just so cool you love them anyway, but I really think we're supposed to be disgusted by Warren. That's a completely different situation than someone like Xander or Riley or Kennedy, who was introduced as a good guy, and yet people hated them despite the writers' intentions.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
It's strange to me that the majority of people seem to be tethering Xander's moral worth to how he treated Spike... oh wait, no it's NOT! This is a Spuffy site! LOL, I keep forgetting. :P
But seriously, I think ol' Spikey had a lot of that coming, no? Chip or no chip, he was a pretty bad dude. Anybody remember the episode where Xander get's split into two in that junkyard? Spike is there when it happens, rooting for the bad guy to murder them all.... heheheh.
Here was a vampire who spent an exorbitant amount of time and energy trying to eat Xander and his friends. Then, he imposes himself on them for help when he escapes from vampire jail, all the while still plotting their deaths... sometimes out loud and to their faces! Later, after falling for Buffy, Spike then managed to botch his job in the S5 finale, forcing Buffy to sacrifice herself for Dawn. He went on to make sweet love to Xander's fiancee on candid camera and, as a final touch, tried to rape his best friend.
Yeah, Xander sucks! How could he not just forgive the guy and get over it?!
Jun 20 2008 01:20 am #20pfeifferpack
Hi lostboy! Yes it is filtered through Spike in many ways but that's because most of his flaws were shown in situations with Spike. ITA that Spike asked for his share but no credit was ever given even when earned like after that long Buffyless summer. As for Spike trying to kill them...hum....The one time I remember Xander in the direct line of fire was when a drunken Spike kidnapped him and Willow to do a love spell. He clocked Xander and then.....wait! The evil bloodthirsty vampire is about to do EV0L!... carried Xander to his lair and laid him on a mattress (yes, he threatened to kill him to urge Willow to comply but he could have been as effective just draining the boy and threatening to do the same to Willow). Those "tried to kill" incidents were largely directed at Buffy, the Slayer (and half arsed at that). The order of Taraka were clearly a diversion as he had to have called them off when no longer needed (Giles said this order...and it had to be more than the three we saw who made it up.....never gave up until the target was dead yet they did).
I didn't say he should forgive and/or love the guy....merely that he should have seen the differences as he clearly did in S7. The season I disliked Xander was S6 and they were all fairly unlikable that season.
Kathleen
I didn't say he should forgive and/or love the guy....merely that he should have seen the differences as he clearly did in S7. The season I disliked Xander was S6 and they were all fairly unlikable that season.
Kathleen
It's strange to me that the majority of people seem to be tethering Xander's moral worth to how he treated Spike
And I'm sure you'll be shocked to discover that such measurements are used for all characters. :) Like how Buffy is only likable when she's being nice to Spike, and Angel's worth as a champion is measured on a yardstick of how he compares to Spike... Also, I hear Clem was voted "most popular Buffyverse character" because he's the only one who was never mean to Spike. :)
And I'm sure you'll be shocked to discover that such measurements are used for all characters. :) Like how Buffy is only likable when she's being nice to Spike, and Angel's worth as a champion is measured on a yardstick of how he compares to Spike... Also, I hear Clem was voted "most popular Buffyverse character" because he's the only one who was never mean to Spike. :)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 20 2008 02:55 am #22Immortal Beloved
Read most of what everyone else wrote, but not all. Some stuff I feel begs repeating. Other stuff, forgive me for repeating 'cause I didn't read it all :-)
When I first started watching Buffy, I really liked Xander. He was funny and kind and helpful and supportive. But all that changed, as people are wont to do. Probably the thing I dislike most about Xander is his hypocrisy. I won't go into detail about how he's a hypocrite 'cause we already know that (i.e., Xander was with Anya, but criticized Buffy for being with Spike). Now, this only applies to Xander's criticism of Buffy when she was with Spike. By that time, he had been with Anya for a few years. When Buffy was with Angel, Xander had been attracted to demons and bug women, but not involved with any of them on a deeper level. We also know that each individual person has their own set of values. For me, hypocrisy is probably the characteristic I hate most in people. To me, to cast stones at someone when one is not only imperfect, but perhaps doing the exact same thing that one criticizes, is a terrible offense. I've seen hypocrisy in school, at work, in politics, even in my own family; and I find it deplorable. I'm not perfect, and neither is anyone else. If someone is hypocritical, I loose all most all respect for them. So, when Xander became hypocritical toward Buffy, I lost all but an iota of respect for him.
As for Xander's attempted rape of Buffy while possessed by a hyena: Oddly enough, it's not the attempted rape part that bothers me; he was possessed and not necessarily acting under his own accord. Or perhaps he wanted Buffy, and the hyena possession twisted that desire into something dark. What bothers me is the fact that he lied to Buffy after it. Lying is the other thing I abhor. I can understand that he was embarrassed, but admitting that you're embarrassed is better than covering up the truth. And don't even get me started on Giles aiding and abetting when he was supposed to be the responsible adult. I value honesty. Everyone who knows me knows it. Whenever a friend wants an honest answer, they ask me. It may not be pretty, as possessed rape is not, but it's the truth.
Xander did have many admirable qualities. He was unswervingly loyal and remarkably brave; but his good qualities don't make me overlook the bad ones. He was a good person, just flawed in ways that conflict with my personal set of values.
Oh, and by the way, probably nothing anyone says will change my mind. I'd give Buffy a run for her money when it comes to unbending convictions :-P
When I first started watching Buffy, I really liked Xander. He was funny and kind and helpful and supportive. But all that changed, as people are wont to do. Probably the thing I dislike most about Xander is his hypocrisy. I won't go into detail about how he's a hypocrite 'cause we already know that (i.e., Xander was with Anya, but criticized Buffy for being with Spike). Now, this only applies to Xander's criticism of Buffy when she was with Spike. By that time, he had been with Anya for a few years. When Buffy was with Angel, Xander had been attracted to demons and bug women, but not involved with any of them on a deeper level. We also know that each individual person has their own set of values. For me, hypocrisy is probably the characteristic I hate most in people. To me, to cast stones at someone when one is not only imperfect, but perhaps doing the exact same thing that one criticizes, is a terrible offense. I've seen hypocrisy in school, at work, in politics, even in my own family; and I find it deplorable. I'm not perfect, and neither is anyone else. If someone is hypocritical, I loose all most all respect for them. So, when Xander became hypocritical toward Buffy, I lost all but an iota of respect for him.
As for Xander's attempted rape of Buffy while possessed by a hyena: Oddly enough, it's not the attempted rape part that bothers me; he was possessed and not necessarily acting under his own accord. Or perhaps he wanted Buffy, and the hyena possession twisted that desire into something dark. What bothers me is the fact that he lied to Buffy after it. Lying is the other thing I abhor. I can understand that he was embarrassed, but admitting that you're embarrassed is better than covering up the truth. And don't even get me started on Giles aiding and abetting when he was supposed to be the responsible adult. I value honesty. Everyone who knows me knows it. Whenever a friend wants an honest answer, they ask me. It may not be pretty, as possessed rape is not, but it's the truth.
Xander did have many admirable qualities. He was unswervingly loyal and remarkably brave; but his good qualities don't make me overlook the bad ones. He was a good person, just flawed in ways that conflict with my personal set of values.
Oh, and by the way, probably nothing anyone says will change my mind. I'd give Buffy a run for her money when it comes to unbending convictions :-P
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
One thing about Xander is that he is so much about Extremes - He is the most loyal and brave Scooby. Lost Boy, great description "The Xan-man did it with courage and love." but he could also be vicious and mean spirited. We see him open his home to Spike and we also see him go on automatic "what the hell are you doing here" when Spike goes to offer his daisy bouquet after Joyce's death. And we see how Xander can also become a potential murderer - he had every intention of killing Spike after seeing him with Anya - which he had absolutely no justifiable grounds. In "The Freshman" he is so wonderful and in "Hells Bells" he is so confused and filled with sorrow while he proceeds to break Anya's heart - Sure, not going through with the marriage was the right thing to do - but we see him as a man who did not know himself and let the Marriage Plans get completely out of control.
Xander, for me, became one of the hardest character to understand and reconcile because he could be so Wonderful and So Dreadful but I guess that makes him the perfect symbol of the Everyday Person and the perfect us.
Xander, for me, became one of the hardest character to understand and reconcile because he could be so Wonderful and So Dreadful but I guess that makes him the perfect symbol of the Everyday Person and the perfect us.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
And I'm sure you'll be shocked to discover that such measurements are used for all characters. :) Like how Buffy is only likable when she's being nice to Spike, and Angel's worth as a champion is measured on a yardstick of how he compares to Spike... Also, I hear Clem was voted "most popular Buffyverse character" because he's the only one who was never mean to Spike. :)
Isn't having questions and trying to understand the conduct of all the characters the whole point of the series - forcing the viewers to think and ask hard questions is what made this series great.
We all have characters that we especially care about and others that did not appeal to us - but I hope that we can come together and critic and share our ideas about all these characters with respect for all our members - We all filter these characters through our own perspective - I appreciate and am excited to read what each of us has to say. I think everyone brings interesting and useful information into the discussions. I hope we all feel the same.
now I want to go vote for Clem?
Isn't having questions and trying to understand the conduct of all the characters the whole point of the series - forcing the viewers to think and ask hard questions is what made this series great.
We all have characters that we especially care about and others that did not appeal to us - but I hope that we can come together and critic and share our ideas about all these characters with respect for all our members - We all filter these characters through our own perspective - I appreciate and am excited to read what each of us has to say. I think everyone brings interesting and useful information into the discussions. I hope we all feel the same.
now I want to go vote for Clem?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
And I'm sure you'll be shocked to discover that such measurements are used for all characters. 
Like how Buffy is only likable when she's being nice to Spike, and Angel's worth as a champion is measured on a yardstick of how he compares to Spike... Also, I hear Clem was voted "most popular Buffyverse character" because he's the only one who was never mean to Spike.
Isn't the true measure of a person taken by how they treat those 'below' them rather than how they treat equals or those above?
Clem was probably the most easy-going and likeable character on the show. His only flaws? He cheated poorly at poker and ate kittens. He treated everyone the same, equally, in an almost childlike way. He didn't see Spike as below him because he was a chipped vampire, or Buffy as above him because she was the Slayer. Clem treated everyone evenly. And that's the mark of a good soul -- demonic or not.
Any virtues Xander may have were far outweighed by the flaws.
He was a liar and a hypocrite, as has been mentioned above. He lied continuously throughout the series -- to himself, to Buffy, to Willow, to Faith, to Giles, to Cordy, to Angel, to Oz, to Spike, and to Anya. Xander didn't learn to understand himself until it was very nearly too late -- and even then his self won knowledge didn't last beyond the losing of his eye.
He never bothered to transcend his upbringing, never bothered to right any of the wrongs -- hell it took him five freaking years to admit that he lied to Buffy -- an act which devastated her -- when she was about to face Angelus. And even then he never really admitted it.
I don't claim to be perfect, I never have -- but one thing I've never done is not admit when I've made a mistake, or done something wrong. Xander couldn't even admit to himself that he was wrong, how on earth was he going to admit it to someone else?
No, none of the characters was perfect. They were all flawed. But some of the characters, by definition were supposed to be flawed. Xander, as the lone "real" human, should have been a bit less flawed than the demons he so decried.
Maybe he was on the road to self-awareness and growth, but since that never played out, I'm sticking to my opinion that Xander was never one of the truly good guys. And he'd never be a hero.
Like how Buffy is only likable when she's being nice to Spike, and Angel's worth as a champion is measured on a yardstick of how he compares to Spike... Also, I hear Clem was voted "most popular Buffyverse character" because he's the only one who was never mean to Spike. Isn't the true measure of a person taken by how they treat those 'below' them rather than how they treat equals or those above?
Clem was probably the most easy-going and likeable character on the show. His only flaws? He cheated poorly at poker and ate kittens. He treated everyone the same, equally, in an almost childlike way. He didn't see Spike as below him because he was a chipped vampire, or Buffy as above him because she was the Slayer. Clem treated everyone evenly. And that's the mark of a good soul -- demonic or not.
Any virtues Xander may have were far outweighed by the flaws.
He was a liar and a hypocrite, as has been mentioned above. He lied continuously throughout the series -- to himself, to Buffy, to Willow, to Faith, to Giles, to Cordy, to Angel, to Oz, to Spike, and to Anya. Xander didn't learn to understand himself until it was very nearly too late -- and even then his self won knowledge didn't last beyond the losing of his eye.
He never bothered to transcend his upbringing, never bothered to right any of the wrongs -- hell it took him five freaking years to admit that he lied to Buffy -- an act which devastated her -- when she was about to face Angelus. And even then he never really admitted it.
I don't claim to be perfect, I never have -- but one thing I've never done is not admit when I've made a mistake, or done something wrong. Xander couldn't even admit to himself that he was wrong, how on earth was he going to admit it to someone else?
No, none of the characters was perfect. They were all flawed. But some of the characters, by definition were supposed to be flawed. Xander, as the lone "real" human, should have been a bit less flawed than the demons he so decried.
Maybe he was on the road to self-awareness and growth, but since that never played out, I'm sticking to my opinion that Xander was never one of the truly good guys. And he'd never be a hero.
I'm starting to get angry. You won't like me when I'm angry!
*hulks out Rrrrrrrruhhhh*
Xander was a hero. Xander was a hero, a hero, a hero, a hero. Not only was he a "good guy," he was a great guy. Xander was not the "only real human." Willow, Giles, Tara, Cordelia, Riley, Wesley, Charlie Gunn, Maggie Walsh, Joyce, Oz, The Trio, Robin Wood... more... ALL of them were "human." Xander did well in that mix. Everyone - human, demon or cephalapod - messed up on those shows, big time. Xander stands alone as someone who "goofed" more than he "sinned." He was not a "liar and a hypocrite." That's a horrible way of describing him. He was a loyal, confused, brave, self-conscious, impulsive, obnoxious, courageous man-child. He was also comic relief, and damn good at it.
Maybe Xander didn't have awesome, bulging jean shots, or a biblical redemption story, or a cool motorcycle, or a satisfying romantic arc.... but he DID save the world, and saved his friends on a number of occasions before and after that. He lost his eye dueling with the devil, and more than once refused to kill his tormentors to spare the feelings of the people he loved. And as far as "correcting his upbringing" he was probably brought up with the least amount of love than any other human character on the show... even Tara's creepy kinfolk seemed to genuinely care about her. But love and loyalty defined him to his core.
He was full of flaws, and not perfect to any degree. But Xander was not "The Liar" or "The Hypocrite." Saying that those attributes define him is missing the whole point of him, I think.
*okay hulking back down now huhhhhhhrruh*
Calm down Son, we aren't saying we dislike Xander, just that he has flaws like any human being, if he was perfectly perfect, he would be pretty boring, it's his flaws that make him interesting.
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
*hulking WAY down hurrruhhhhhhhaaa*
Lis, I'm a huge fan of the sixth season, which is the season where Xander saves the world. I get defensive of the boy, I guess. :)
Lis, I'm a huge fan of the sixth season, which is the season where Xander saves the world. I get defensive of the boy, I guess. :)
Jun 20 2008 06:59 am #29Always_jbj
Moderator
I agree with Patti that Xander is a great gift to writers because he does have a considerable number of both flaws and virtues which allow you to use him in anyway you want in a story.
Having said that, my biggest problem with Xander personally is that he was never really called on any of the things he did wrong. He basically got a get out of jail free card for everything. All the other characters had their flaws and their moments of completely stuffing up, and all of them were called on it in one way or another... Xander just lied or made a lame joke and got away with everything from the attempted rape on Buffy to summoning Sweet (which resulted in at least one death that we know of, and probably more).
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Jun 20 2008 07:24 am #30Scarlet Ibis
Jesus H.
I'm willing to bet that most of you didn't read my well thought out rebuttal as to why Xander's A-okay, which was the initial point of this thread to begin with.
Anyway.
Since several people brought up who likes who and why, well....
The likabitly of Xander or Buffy or anyone for that matter is not based upon how they treated Spike. At least in my opinion. I already wrote down my arguements for the whole Xander/Spike thing, so if you're interested in that at all, scroll up and check it out. As for the whole Buffy thing--the problem was not that she was mean to Spike in s6--she was pretty much always mean to him before. But in s6, it was not entertianing, it was not comic relief--it was straight up abuse. It could have been Giles, Xander, whoever, and her behavior still would have been unacceptable as well as disgusting and appalling in my eyes. Especially for someone who's supposed to have been a hero. We've had this discussion time and time again, and I don't care how depressed one is, it still doesn't give them the right to act so horrendously. Particularly so to someone who they know loves them, and they proceed to take advantage of that fact. Users are abusers, kids.
And Always--that's not necessarily true. Buffy isn't called on her bad behavior. Willow is only called on it after she gets Dawn in an accident, and again when she tries to end the world, but the point is, no one spoke up. Cept for Tara. Xander isn't the only who's used a get out of jail free card. And again--he did not attempt to rape Buffy. He had no free will. Which I've said further up...but whatev.
I'm willing to bet that most of you didn't read my well thought out rebuttal as to why Xander's A-okay, which was the initial point of this thread to begin with.
Anyway.
Since several people brought up who likes who and why, well....
The likabitly of Xander or Buffy or anyone for that matter is not based upon how they treated Spike. At least in my opinion. I already wrote down my arguements for the whole Xander/Spike thing, so if you're interested in that at all, scroll up and check it out. As for the whole Buffy thing--the problem was not that she was mean to Spike in s6--she was pretty much always mean to him before. But in s6, it was not entertianing, it was not comic relief--it was straight up abuse. It could have been Giles, Xander, whoever, and her behavior still would have been unacceptable as well as disgusting and appalling in my eyes. Especially for someone who's supposed to have been a hero. We've had this discussion time and time again, and I don't care how depressed one is, it still doesn't give them the right to act so horrendously. Particularly so to someone who they know loves them, and they proceed to take advantage of that fact. Users are abusers, kids.
And Always--that's not necessarily true. Buffy isn't called on her bad behavior. Willow is only called on it after she gets Dawn in an accident, and again when she tries to end the world, but the point is, no one spoke up. Cept for Tara. Xander isn't the only who's used a get out of jail free card. And again--he did not attempt to rape Buffy. He had no free will. Which I've said further up...but whatev.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 20 2008 12:54 pm #31Guest
Guest
Well, to redefine, Buffy got called on *everything* she did the group didn't like. From hiding a returned Angel to making a wrong battle plan, if the group didn't *like* it, she was judged upon. But since her bad behavior only happened to Spike for the most part, it either was of little consequence to her friends because he was a demon and they were doing it, too, or they didn't know about it. There was so much blindness in S6, and secrecy, that the only thing someone could have called her on in the group was neglecting her sister - if they were paying attention. Which they weren't, except for Tara while she lived there, and I got the impression she was focused on keeping Dawn fed on a regular basis.
There's fanfic that continues Xanders growing up past the series, and that's fine with me, I do it, too. I don't care what the comics say, as they're basically a reboot of the series where the characters don't even feel the same.
CM
What bothers me is the fact that he lied to Buffy after it.
My perspective on that is that it didn't bother Buffy, so why should it bother me? Buffy's the one who was affected by it, and she found out that he'd lied and didn't seem offended or angry (in fact, she barely seems surprised). So if she's not going to judge him, and she was the one he tried to rape, then how can you, as an outside observer, still require more accountability?
Isn't having questions and trying to understand the conduct of all the characters the whole point of the series
That doesn't mean that we only measure the conduct of the characters against that of our favorite. That's a completely biased way of going about it, and doesn't give a fair shake to other characters - especially when the measurement you're using (Spike) has just as many bad qualities as anyone else, yet no one but Lostboy has brought that up here.
Isn't the true measure of a person taken by how they treat those 'below' them rather than how they treat equals or those above?
I think the true measure of a person should be the sum of their actions, not just their treatment of one specific person - especially when that one specific person has as tumultuous a history as Spike does. Why is it that Spike saving the world trumps all the thousands of people he's killed over a century, but Xander saving the world doesn't balance his being mean to Spike?
hell it took him five freaking years to admit that he lied to Buffy -- an act which devastated her
Um... what? His lying devastated her? Then how come it's barely a footnote in their conversation? What devastated her was having to kill Angel, which she would've had to do whether she knew Willow was doing the spell or not - the spell didn't kick in until after Angelus had awakened Acathla, so she couldn't have done anything differently if she'd known.
Maybe he was on the road to self-awareness and growth, but since that never played out, I'm sticking to my opinion that Xander was never one of the truly good guys. And he'd never be a hero.
Didn't you watch season 7? That sure looked like self-awareness and growth to me. And I think single-handedly saving the world qualifies someone as a hero, regardless of whether you like them or not.
My perspective on that is that it didn't bother Buffy, so why should it bother me? Buffy's the one who was affected by it, and she found out that he'd lied and didn't seem offended or angry (in fact, she barely seems surprised). So if she's not going to judge him, and she was the one he tried to rape, then how can you, as an outside observer, still require more accountability?
Isn't having questions and trying to understand the conduct of all the characters the whole point of the series
That doesn't mean that we only measure the conduct of the characters against that of our favorite. That's a completely biased way of going about it, and doesn't give a fair shake to other characters - especially when the measurement you're using (Spike) has just as many bad qualities as anyone else, yet no one but Lostboy has brought that up here.
Isn't the true measure of a person taken by how they treat those 'below' them rather than how they treat equals or those above?
I think the true measure of a person should be the sum of their actions, not just their treatment of one specific person - especially when that one specific person has as tumultuous a history as Spike does. Why is it that Spike saving the world trumps all the thousands of people he's killed over a century, but Xander saving the world doesn't balance his being mean to Spike?
hell it took him five freaking years to admit that he lied to Buffy -- an act which devastated her
Um... what? His lying devastated her? Then how come it's barely a footnote in their conversation? What devastated her was having to kill Angel, which she would've had to do whether she knew Willow was doing the spell or not - the spell didn't kick in until after Angelus had awakened Acathla, so she couldn't have done anything differently if she'd known.
Maybe he was on the road to self-awareness and growth, but since that never played out, I'm sticking to my opinion that Xander was never one of the truly good guys. And he'd never be a hero.
Didn't you watch season 7? That sure looked like self-awareness and growth to me. And I think single-handedly saving the world qualifies someone as a hero, regardless of whether you like them or not.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I think part of the problem is that we the audience see Spike's transformation, but Xander and the other Scoobs don't get to see very much of it. We alone are privy to Spike and Buffy's first kiss in S5, and their second kiss and hot monkey-luvin' in S6, but its a well kept secret for everyone else. As far as Xander knows, a creepy vampire is stalking his friend. The Spike that Xander sees is culled more from shows like the "Yoko Factor." Xander doesn't trust Spike, and in many ways he's correct not to trust him. Two of Spike's defining characteristics are his almost supernatural insights into people and his willingness to use that information to his advantage.
It's true that in Season Six, Spike -like everyone else- was on a journey of transformation, but it was largely hidden in solo scenes and his duets with Buffy. And even that was a messy journey. What's the first thing that Spike does when he thinks that his "conscience" chip isn't working? He goes out and tries to eat someone. And the Spike that Xander fought alongside "all summer long" is very specific about the reasons why: Spike has a passion for violence. He likes to kill things, but because of the chip implant, he can only kill the things that Xander kills. It's implied that there was more to it than that, but as far as Xander knows it was a marriage of convenience.
It might have been a mystery to Spike, too. I think Spike was a very conflicted character. While he has deep insights into everyone else, he has almost none at all about himself. It could be because he can't bear to look in there. Yes, love transforms him eventually. But all the evidence of that transformation is something that Xander doesn't see, even with two eyes.
It's true that in Season Six, Spike -like everyone else- was on a journey of transformation, but it was largely hidden in solo scenes and his duets with Buffy. And even that was a messy journey. What's the first thing that Spike does when he thinks that his "conscience" chip isn't working? He goes out and tries to eat someone. And the Spike that Xander fought alongside "all summer long" is very specific about the reasons why: Spike has a passion for violence. He likes to kill things, but because of the chip implant, he can only kill the things that Xander kills. It's implied that there was more to it than that, but as far as Xander knows it was a marriage of convenience.
It might have been a mystery to Spike, too. I think Spike was a very conflicted character. While he has deep insights into everyone else, he has almost none at all about himself. It could be because he can't bear to look in there. Yes, love transforms him eventually. But all the evidence of that transformation is something that Xander doesn't see, even with two eyes.
How are you guys doing those neat-o quotation boxes?!
Highlight the text you want to quote, then click the "Quote" button at the top of the reply box.
I think part of the problem is that we the audience see Spike's transformation, but Xander and the other Scoobs don't get to see very much of it.
I think that's a good point. I would argue that none of the Scoobies (not even Buffy) really has any reason to trust Spike until "Intervention" at the earliest. Also, I think a lot of people point to the summer after Buffy's death and say, "Well, look! Spike was helping them all out of the goodness of his heart, and they were mean to him once Buffy came back." The thing we have to remember is how it looked from their perspective - yes, Spike was helping out for the summer, but as soon as Buffy came back, he all but disappeared. He didn't hang around the Scoobies, he barely even saw Dawn, and he went back to lurking in the shadows. Now, maybe the real reason is because Buffy didn't want him around the others (to keep their relationship a secret), but the Scoobies don't know that. All they see is that Spike has apparently reverted back to his season 5 behavior, just as Xander predicted he would.
Highlight the text you want to quote, then click the "Quote" button at the top of the reply box.
I think part of the problem is that we the audience see Spike's transformation, but Xander and the other Scoobs don't get to see very much of it.
I think that's a good point. I would argue that none of the Scoobies (not even Buffy) really has any reason to trust Spike until "Intervention" at the earliest. Also, I think a lot of people point to the summer after Buffy's death and say, "Well, look! Spike was helping them all out of the goodness of his heart, and they were mean to him once Buffy came back." The thing we have to remember is how it looked from their perspective - yes, Spike was helping out for the summer, but as soon as Buffy came back, he all but disappeared. He didn't hang around the Scoobies, he barely even saw Dawn, and he went back to lurking in the shadows. Now, maybe the real reason is because Buffy didn't want him around the others (to keep their relationship a secret), but the Scoobies don't know that. All they see is that Spike has apparently reverted back to his season 5 behavior, just as Xander predicted he would.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Also, I think a lot of people point to the summer after Buffy's death and say, "Well, look! Spike was helping them all out of the goodness of his heart, and they were mean to him once Buffy came back."
Look I quoted you! Thanks E!
Yes. And also, who's to say what happened during that summer. When they introduce the alliance, it looks like a fractured, very stressful sort of video game... robot running around, Willow invading people's minds, Giles hauling a big goofy axe and Spike still trying to play it cool and getting in his digs. It might have been one nightmare after another for them.
Actually that would make a really good fic! Anyone know of any authors who've taken a stab at this?
Look I quoted you! Thanks E!
Yes. And also, who's to say what happened during that summer. When they introduce the alliance, it looks like a fractured, very stressful sort of video game... robot running around, Willow invading people's minds, Giles hauling a big goofy axe and Spike still trying to play it cool and getting in his digs. It might have been one nightmare after another for them.
Actually that would make a really good fic! Anyone know of any authors who've taken a stab at this?
I get the impression that Spike helped them patrol and babysat Dawn, and didn't exactly make friends with the Scoobies. I mean, Xander, Willow, Tara, and Anya obviously spent a good portion of the summer having those secret meetings and planning to bring Buffy back. Maybe Spike hung around with Giles some, but overall, I think he was pretty much just there to kill things and protect Dawn.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 20 2008 07:35 pm #38Scarlet Ibis
he barely even saw Dawn
That's not true--it's because of Maudlin we didn't actually get to see their interactions, but they still happened, as is stated in "Seeing Red." Also, because of this tidbit, and the fact that he is invited to Buffy's birthday party, I'd say it's fair to say he wasn't as MIA as was presented. We didn't have a camera on them 24/7. The verse continued during the cuts and the commercial breaks.
DAWN: I wanted to stop by on my way and, you know. (beat) Everybody's pretty mad at you.
SPIKE: Yeah. Kinda picked up on that.
DAWN: (softly) You're not going to be coming around anymore. Are you?
SPIKE: (staring into the distance) It's complicated, Nibblet.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
On the subject of whether Xander ever accepted responsibility for his behavior, this is also from "Seeing Red:"
XANDER: I thought I hit bottom, but... It hurt. That you didn't trust me enough to tell me about Spike. It hurt.
BUFFY: I'm sorry. I should have told you.
XANDER: Maybe you would have. If I hadn't given you so many reasons to think I'd be an ass about it.
BUFFY: Guess we've both done a lot of things lately we're not proud of.
XANDER: Think I got you beat.
XANDER: I thought I hit bottom, but... It hurt. That you didn't trust me enough to tell me about Spike. It hurt.
BUFFY: I'm sorry. I should have told you.
XANDER: Maybe you would have. If I hadn't given you so many reasons to think I'd be an ass about it.
BUFFY: Guess we've both done a lot of things lately we're not proud of.
XANDER: Think I got you beat.
Jun 21 2008 06:26 am #40Immortal Beloved
My perspective on that is that it didn't bother Buffy, so why should it bother me? Buffy's the one who was affected by it, and she found out that he'd lied and didn't seem offended or angry (in fact, she barely seems surprised). So if she's not going to judge him, and she was the one he tried to rape, then how can you, as an outside observer, still require more accountability?
Ahem. This may come out sounding a lot more defensive than it's meant to be, what with the whole not-in-personess of the 'net, but:
Just because Buffy is willing to sweep Xander's lies under the rug doesn't mean that I have to be willing to do the same thing. As I stated before, I value honesty. If honesty isn't at the top of Buffy's list, that's her business. In fact, honesty may not even be on her list. She had to keep her slayerness secret from everyone in her life until she came to Sunnydale. She had to sneak out of the house, make up excuses about where she'd been. She hid Angel's return from her friends and Joyce, hid her entire relationship with Spike, hid his return when she saw him in the school basement. I can see why Buffy wouldn't hold Xander's falsehoods against him. Most times, she wasn't even honest with herself, much less with other people :-P To Buffy, Xander's lies probably paled in comparison to some of her own doozies. It's little wonder that she wouldn't bat an eyelash at his fibs.
How can I see past Buffy's lies and not Xander's? That's a good question. I'll have to think about that for a second....Maybe because, when Buffy lied, I got to see the whole thought process behind it, her reasoning, her motivation. We don't see all of Xander's moves from his perspective. Not all of his actions are explained in minute detail. Afterall, it's "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer," not "Xander, friend of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer." :-P Or maybe it's Xander's lying in conjunction with his other faults, or what he lied about, or to whom he lied. Or maybe I understand Buffy's character more than I do Xander's, and I'm able to resolve her issue issues better. Or perhaps I just don't plain like him. I will think about that some more.
There are many people in this world, and every one of them unique. The Buffyverse characters are just as diversified as all of us in reality. That's why the show appeals to so many people. Some people admire Angel more than Spike (I have no idea why), others prefer Captain Peroxide to Captain Forehead. Some people identify with Buffy, others identify with Faith. I bet there are even people out there who think Riley was the best thing since sliced bread. If you find one, let me know :-P Everyone has their own reasons for being attached to a certain character, and everyone has the right be so.
EDT:
I think part of the problem is that we the audience see Spike's transformation, but Xander and the other Scoobs don't get to see very much of it. We alone are privy to Spike and Buffy's first kiss in S5, and their second kiss and hot monkey-luvin' in S6, but its a well kept secret for everyone else. As far as Xander knows, a creepy vampire is stalking his friend. The Spike that Xander sees is culled more from shows like the "Yoko Factor." Xander doesn't trust Spike, and in many ways he's correct not to trust him. Two of Spike's defining characteristics are his almost supernatural insights into people and his willingness to use that information to his advantage.
It's true that in Season Six, Spike -like everyone else- was on a journey of transformation, but it was largely hidden in solo scenes and his duets with Buffy. And even that was a messy journey. What's the first thing that Spike does when he thinks that his "conscience" chip isn't working? He goes out and tries to eat someone. And the Spike that Xander fought alongside "all summer long" is very specific about the reasons why: Spike has a passion for violence. He likes to kill things, but because of the chip implant, he can only kill the things that Xander kills. It's implied that there was more to it than that, but as far as Xander knows it was a marriage of convenience.
It might have been a mystery to Spike, too. I think Spike was a very conflicted character. While he has deep insights into everyone else, he has almost none at all about himself. It could be because he can't bear to look in there. Yes, love transforms him eventually. But all the evidence of that transformation is something that Xander doesn't see, even with two eyes.
Well said, lb. :-)
Ahem. This may come out sounding a lot more defensive than it's meant to be, what with the whole not-in-personess of the 'net, but:
Just because Buffy is willing to sweep Xander's lies under the rug doesn't mean that I have to be willing to do the same thing. As I stated before, I value honesty. If honesty isn't at the top of Buffy's list, that's her business. In fact, honesty may not even be on her list. She had to keep her slayerness secret from everyone in her life until she came to Sunnydale. She had to sneak out of the house, make up excuses about where she'd been. She hid Angel's return from her friends and Joyce, hid her entire relationship with Spike, hid his return when she saw him in the school basement. I can see why Buffy wouldn't hold Xander's falsehoods against him. Most times, she wasn't even honest with herself, much less with other people :-P To Buffy, Xander's lies probably paled in comparison to some of her own doozies. It's little wonder that she wouldn't bat an eyelash at his fibs.
How can I see past Buffy's lies and not Xander's? That's a good question. I'll have to think about that for a second....Maybe because, when Buffy lied, I got to see the whole thought process behind it, her reasoning, her motivation. We don't see all of Xander's moves from his perspective. Not all of his actions are explained in minute detail. Afterall, it's "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer," not "Xander, friend of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer." :-P Or maybe it's Xander's lying in conjunction with his other faults, or what he lied about, or to whom he lied. Or maybe I understand Buffy's character more than I do Xander's, and I'm able to resolve her issue issues better. Or perhaps I just don't plain like him. I will think about that some more.
There are many people in this world, and every one of them unique. The Buffyverse characters are just as diversified as all of us in reality. That's why the show appeals to so many people. Some people admire Angel more than Spike (I have no idea why), others prefer Captain Peroxide to Captain Forehead. Some people identify with Buffy, others identify with Faith. I bet there are even people out there who think Riley was the best thing since sliced bread. If you find one, let me know :-P Everyone has their own reasons for being attached to a certain character, and everyone has the right be so.
EDT:
I think part of the problem is that we the audience see Spike's transformation, but Xander and the other Scoobs don't get to see very much of it. We alone are privy to Spike and Buffy's first kiss in S5, and their second kiss and hot monkey-luvin' in S6, but its a well kept secret for everyone else. As far as Xander knows, a creepy vampire is stalking his friend. The Spike that Xander sees is culled more from shows like the "Yoko Factor." Xander doesn't trust Spike, and in many ways he's correct not to trust him. Two of Spike's defining characteristics are his almost supernatural insights into people and his willingness to use that information to his advantage.
It's true that in Season Six, Spike -like everyone else- was on a journey of transformation, but it was largely hidden in solo scenes and his duets with Buffy. And even that was a messy journey. What's the first thing that Spike does when he thinks that his "conscience" chip isn't working? He goes out and tries to eat someone. And the Spike that Xander fought alongside "all summer long" is very specific about the reasons why: Spike has a passion for violence. He likes to kill things, but because of the chip implant, he can only kill the things that Xander kills. It's implied that there was more to it than that, but as far as Xander knows it was a marriage of convenience.
It might have been a mystery to Spike, too. I think Spike was a very conflicted character. While he has deep insights into everyone else, he has almost none at all about himself. It could be because he can't bear to look in there. Yes, love transforms him eventually. But all the evidence of that transformation is something that Xander doesn't see, even with two eyes.
Well said, lb. :-)
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jun 21 2008 09:10 am #41Always_jbj
Moderator
And Always--that's not necessarily true. Buffy isn't called on her bad behavior. Willow is only called on it after she gets Dawn in an accident, and again when she tries to end the world, but the point is, no one spoke up. Cept for Tara. Xander isn't the only who's used a get out of jail free card. And again--he did not attempt to rape Buffy. He had no free will. Which I've said further up...but whatev.
Buffy is constantly called on her behaviour, even when she hasn't really done anything to deserve it. If you mean she wasn't called on how she treated Spike, her friends didn't really know about it, not that most of them would have cared. Dawn would, I imagine, have called her on it had she known, and probably Tara would have too...but as they didn't know, the point is pretty well moot.
Prior to hurting Dawn, Willow was called on her behaviour by Giles and Tara and to some small extent by Xander and Anya.
As for Xander attempting to rape Buffy, just because you say he had no free will doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, it may have been the ID, but it was still a part of Xander that was in control and to some extent he was responsible for his actions. So even just an "I'm sorry' would have been okay, but no, he lied, pretended he didn't remember any of it and got away with the first of many transgressions that he was to get away with over the ensuing years.
Buffy is constantly called on her behaviour, even when she hasn't really done anything to deserve it. If you mean she wasn't called on how she treated Spike, her friends didn't really know about it, not that most of them would have cared. Dawn would, I imagine, have called her on it had she known, and probably Tara would have too...but as they didn't know, the point is pretty well moot.
Prior to hurting Dawn, Willow was called on her behaviour by Giles and Tara and to some small extent by Xander and Anya.
As for Xander attempting to rape Buffy, just because you say he had no free will doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, it may have been the ID, but it was still a part of Xander that was in control and to some extent he was responsible for his actions. So even just an "I'm sorry' would have been okay, but no, he lied, pretended he didn't remember any of it and got away with the first of many transgressions that he was to get away with over the ensuing years.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Jun 21 2008 09:22 am #42Scarlet Ibis
You make some fine points Always--you're right. Buffy has had some interventions.
As for the Xander thing, well, I'm not just saying he had no free will--he was in fact posessed by the demon. Accidentally, of course, but still without his consent. He may remember everything, but I don't think it was any part of Xander. Okay, yes, he was crushing on Buffy. But here's the thing--she wasn't viewed as Buffy, she was viewed as an alpha female. She was seen as someone on his (now) superior level. In addition to that, Xander would never hurt Willow. When he was possessed, he attacked her during gym, and then tried to hunt her down later. The last person Xander would ever hurt would be WIllow. I think we can at least agree on that (that he would never hurt Willow). He even threatened to kill Buffy if Willow had gotten hurt due to her reckless actions. Anyway, thanks for actually reading my response :P
As for the Xander thing, well, I'm not just saying he had no free will--he was in fact posessed by the demon. Accidentally, of course, but still without his consent. He may remember everything, but I don't think it was any part of Xander. Okay, yes, he was crushing on Buffy. But here's the thing--she wasn't viewed as Buffy, she was viewed as an alpha female. She was seen as someone on his (now) superior level. In addition to that, Xander would never hurt Willow. When he was possessed, he attacked her during gym, and then tried to hunt her down later. The last person Xander would ever hurt would be WIllow. I think we can at least agree on that (that he would never hurt Willow). He even threatened to kill Buffy if Willow had gotten hurt due to her reckless actions. Anyway, thanks for actually reading my response :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
I don't get the "Xander never got called upon his wrong deeds" "Xander always gets a free of jail card" sayings.
Other than Once More with Feelings, give me another moment when Xander screwed up and was never yelled at for. I can give times when Xander was called about his wrong deeds: Cordelia never gave Xander a second chance after cheating on her when Oz forgave Willow, Anya never gave Xander a second chance after what he did in Hell's Bells when Buffy gave Spike another chance, Giles yelled at Xander for the spell he made in BB&B, Willow showed Xander that the flowers Spike brought for Joyce had no card and there you get a guilty expression from Xander, Anya let Xander have it in Entropy when he was acting like a fool and even though the sex between Spike and Anya wasn't intended, it appeared as a punishment to Xander.
As for Xander and Spike's snark, both are guilty as charged. King-of-the-Big-Exit and Willie-Wanna-Bite always stood their ground in a fight of wits.
Xander is a great character because he's a mixture of good and bad qualities, making him more human than many TV show characters, especially comic relief ones.
Other than Once More with Feelings, give me another moment when Xander screwed up and was never yelled at for. I can give times when Xander was called about his wrong deeds: Cordelia never gave Xander a second chance after cheating on her when Oz forgave Willow, Anya never gave Xander a second chance after what he did in Hell's Bells when Buffy gave Spike another chance, Giles yelled at Xander for the spell he made in BB&B, Willow showed Xander that the flowers Spike brought for Joyce had no card and there you get a guilty expression from Xander, Anya let Xander have it in Entropy when he was acting like a fool and even though the sex between Spike and Anya wasn't intended, it appeared as a punishment to Xander.
As for Xander and Spike's snark, both are guilty as charged. King-of-the-Big-Exit and Willie-Wanna-Bite always stood their ground in a fight of wits.
Xander is a great character because he's a mixture of good and bad qualities, making him more human than many TV show characters, especially comic relief ones.
Isn't having questions and trying to understand the conduct of all the characters the whole point of the series That doesn't mean that we only measure the conduct of the characters against that of our favorite. That's a completely biased way of going about it, and doesn't give a fair shake to other characters - especially when the measurement you're using (Spike) has just as many bad qualities as anyone else, yet no one but Lostboy has brought that up here.
I hope that I cannot be accused of being biased toward Spike Good Now Ignore His History - that is not my intent, nor do I suspect it is the intent of the people posting here - I think most are trying to be fair - The Thread invites the readers ideas about Xander and I don't think that readers are particularly biased in their comments. If a contrast is being made between Spike and Xander surely that does not mean that the reader is making that contrast based on the degree that Spike is the favorite character. I most certainly am not - that was never my intent or starting point, now or ever.
Xander, as has been agree on by most posts, has his excellent qualities and just as equally his very bad qualities - that he is primarily contrasted with Spike in this thread is because a lot of the animosity between the characters brings out the worst in both.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
that he is primarily contrasted with Spike in this thread is because a lot of the animosity between the characters brings out the worst in both.
I guess my question then would be why contrast him primarily with Spike unless the intention is to illustrate Xander's worst qualities? Why not compare him with Buffy, Willow, Giles, Anya, Riley, etc.? Particularly since as a Scooby, a more apt comparison for Xander would be with that of another Scooby. Xander wins the morality award hands down compared to Willow, or even Giles. No other Scooby has single-handedly stopped an apocalypse. No one else has fought on the side of good for as long or as hard as Xander has without any special abilities. No one else sustained a permanent physical injury and yet refused to sit on the sidelines. So how come the only comparisons we can make are the ones that bring out the worst in him?
I guess my question then would be why contrast him primarily with Spike unless the intention is to illustrate Xander's worst qualities? Why not compare him with Buffy, Willow, Giles, Anya, Riley, etc.? Particularly since as a Scooby, a more apt comparison for Xander would be with that of another Scooby. Xander wins the morality award hands down compared to Willow, or even Giles. No other Scooby has single-handedly stopped an apocalypse. No one else has fought on the side of good for as long or as hard as Xander has without any special abilities. No one else sustained a permanent physical injury and yet refused to sit on the sidelines. So how come the only comparisons we can make are the ones that bring out the worst in him?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 23 2008 12:09 am #46Spikez_tart
| only comparisons we can make are the ones that bring out the worst in him | |
only comparions we can make are the ones that bring out the worst in him
I think the reason that Xander gets bad press is because he himself is not all that willing to forgive certain people, especially Buffy's boyfriends. When there's a chance to give Angel his soul back (and consequently get him to stop killing people and destroying the world) Xander wants nothing to do with it. He wants Buffy to kill him ASAP and he wants revenge for Jenny Calendar's death. He never really lets up on Anya for her past and he has no use for Spike whatsoever. That makes him more interesting to me.
He is very brave, especially considering he has no special powers and he does get badly hurt several times, but he seems to think he has the inside track on everything that's happening (like Buffy's relationship with Riley or that he should be totally in the know about her relationship with Spike) and doesn't ever seem to realize that he is so often full of crap or to realize that its not his job to make Buffy shape up. It does always sound so logical when he's saying it.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
He never really lets up on Anya for her past
Waaaiiiit a minute. Several people on this thread have argued that he's hypocritical because he ignores Anya's demon past but not Spike's, yet he also never lets up on Anya for her past? He can't do both! I don't actually recall Xander having a problem with Anya's past, except for maybe in the very beginning (late s3/early s4) when he was creeped out hearing about all the things she's done to men.
Waaaiiiit a minute. Several people on this thread have argued that he's hypocritical because he ignores Anya's demon past but not Spike's, yet he also never lets up on Anya for her past? He can't do both! I don't actually recall Xander having a problem with Anya's past, except for maybe in the very beginning (late s3/early s4) when he was creeped out hearing about all the things she's done to men.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I don't think it's Anya's past Xander had the problem with, mostly it was her bluntness
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Jun 23 2008 03:43 am #49Immortal Beloved
he's hypocritical because he ignores Anya's demon past but not Spike's,
I don't think he's hypocritical because he ignores Anya's demon past. In fact, I don't think he completely ignores it, but he does have a tendency to not want to hear her talk about it. I agree that it's not exactly polite dinner conversation, but there were times when I felt he could have been a bit nicer to Anya when asking her to not bring up the subject. I think Xander's hypocritical because he criticizes Buffy for being with a demon when he himself has done essentially the same thing. I don't think he begins to recognize that until Anya goes back to being a demon, and Buffy goes to kill her. Xander says that he still loves Anya even though she's a demon who just killed a house full of frat boys, and I think that's when he finally starts to understand Buffy's situation.
I don't think he's hypocritical because he ignores Anya's demon past. In fact, I don't think he completely ignores it, but he does have a tendency to not want to hear her talk about it. I agree that it's not exactly polite dinner conversation, but there were times when I felt he could have been a bit nicer to Anya when asking her to not bring up the subject. I think Xander's hypocritical because he criticizes Buffy for being with a demon when he himself has done essentially the same thing. I don't think he begins to recognize that until Anya goes back to being a demon, and Buffy goes to kill her. Xander says that he still loves Anya even though she's a demon who just killed a house full of frat boys, and I think that's when he finally starts to understand Buffy's situation.
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Lots of great points above, from both perspectives.
As a character Xander was at times hypocritical, selfish, narrow minded but he was also forgiving, selfless, open and, at times, incredibly brave - as were most of the core characters which was part of what made it such a great show. I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find a single character on the show that was always perfect in their actions and reactions. Would have been an incredibly boring show if all of them had been perfect.
Xander is probably my favorite character after Spike and Faith, and maybe even a little ahead of Faith. But, then again I liked flawed, complex characters and his flaws seem to be one of the biggest reason he gets the big dislike from many of the BtVS fans. For some reason, many of us (and I'm definitely including myself in the us) tend to latch onto characters we like and dislike those that put them in a bad light, or treat them badly. I hated the way Xander treated Anya the majority of their relationship, but it didn't stop me from finding his character interesting.
As a side note - I dislike the way Angel was portrayed on BtVS, but I loved AtS as a whole and found Angel a character I grew to really enjoy. However, Riley will always get the "a little vomit in the mouth" reaction from me because I find him one of the most ridiculous and two-dimensional characters in all of the Buffyverse, aside from maybe Kennedy. They found a GI Joe cut-out, slapped it with a military-alpha-male-stereotype and called it Riley. Not even the desperate attempt to splash him with some darkness with the whole vampire-biting thing gave him depth. It just made him, along with Buffy and Xander, appear incredibly stupid. I shudder to think how bad it could have been if they had chosen a less skilled and competent actor.
As a character Xander was at times hypocritical, selfish, narrow minded but he was also forgiving, selfless, open and, at times, incredibly brave - as were most of the core characters which was part of what made it such a great show. I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find a single character on the show that was always perfect in their actions and reactions. Would have been an incredibly boring show if all of them had been perfect.
Xander is probably my favorite character after Spike and Faith, and maybe even a little ahead of Faith. But, then again I liked flawed, complex characters and his flaws seem to be one of the biggest reason he gets the big dislike from many of the BtVS fans. For some reason, many of us (and I'm definitely including myself in the us) tend to latch onto characters we like and dislike those that put them in a bad light, or treat them badly. I hated the way Xander treated Anya the majority of their relationship, but it didn't stop me from finding his character interesting.
As a side note - I dislike the way Angel was portrayed on BtVS, but I loved AtS as a whole and found Angel a character I grew to really enjoy. However, Riley will always get the "a little vomit in the mouth" reaction from me because I find him one of the most ridiculous and two-dimensional characters in all of the Buffyverse, aside from maybe Kennedy. They found a GI Joe cut-out, slapped it with a military-alpha-male-stereotype and called it Riley. Not even the desperate attempt to splash him with some darkness with the whole vampire-biting thing gave him depth. It just made him, along with Buffy and Xander, appear incredibly stupid. I shudder to think how bad it could have been if they had chosen a less skilled and competent actor.
~ Q
One thing that happens with these two character is how they are used to set the plot lines from episode to episode and within an episode. For instance in "Forever" Xander is a vital part of the set-up for the story-lines in "Forever" and "Intervention." The First episode has Xander bringing out the theme of Spike as evil stalker and who operates only from his motivation of "making points" with Buffy - Dawn reiterates this as well. The contrast is Spike's speech about Joyce and his innocence and friendship is symbolized in his Chrysanthemum Daisy Bouquet - looks like he has some Sunflowers as well which mean "adoration." Xander and Spike are the contrast of the theme which Spike presents in both episodes - Love for all these Summers Women and his wanting to protect them or alleviate their suffering; he is innocent of Xander's accusations and suspicions as will be dramatically shown in the next episode "Intervention." Xander is shown with a much more thoughtful look after they see the note card with no name - And of course, Dawn introduces the plot of Willow and her fall plus the future resurrection of Buffy.
One of the main reason, IMVHO, for the scene of Anger and Accusation by Xander is to make Spike's torture and his never going to give up Dawn as The Key have such a strong impact and significant notice of the changes that Spike is going through. Unfortunately, this very angry and unjust conduct by Xander is one of the reasons that makes him so offensive and disagreeable and a counter balance to his "Good Guy Hero" for many viewers. He would be just as offensive if he were doing this to any other character, but the plot is set for Xander and Spike and for the next episode and huge arc advancement.
Xander plays the "bad guy" in the first episode which brings in the innocence of intentions - and how grief and love can bring down the innocent young girl, Dawn and how Love and wanting to protect those we love can just as easily cause Spike to do something totally irrational as helping Dawn with the spell. Dawn learns her lesson at the end of "Forever" - Spike will learn his brutal lessons with the hopelessness of The Buffy Bot and the very real "trial by fire" at the hands of Glory.
Truth, Innocence, Reality, Growth, and the hardest lessons of all in life, the finality of death; except if you have Willow around - that is what Xander, Spike, Dawn and Buffy are all learning.
While Xander acts really vicious but with good intent of trying to protect Buffy, Spike with equally good intent is trying to protect and help Dawn - GOOD INTENTIONS - BAD RESULTS by both. Xander will have his own tragic lessons about truth and reality in "Hells Bells" and Spike has his wonderful heroic real life triumph in "Intervention."
Xander has a great heroic world saving day against Willow.
Just because some of us do contrast Xander to Spike, that does not mean to we don't pay attention to the story lines and what each characters has done - both the good and the bad.
One of the main reason, IMVHO, for the scene of Anger and Accusation by Xander is to make Spike's torture and his never going to give up Dawn as The Key have such a strong impact and significant notice of the changes that Spike is going through. Unfortunately, this very angry and unjust conduct by Xander is one of the reasons that makes him so offensive and disagreeable and a counter balance to his "Good Guy Hero" for many viewers. He would be just as offensive if he were doing this to any other character, but the plot is set for Xander and Spike and for the next episode and huge arc advancement.
Xander plays the "bad guy" in the first episode which brings in the innocence of intentions - and how grief and love can bring down the innocent young girl, Dawn and how Love and wanting to protect those we love can just as easily cause Spike to do something totally irrational as helping Dawn with the spell. Dawn learns her lesson at the end of "Forever" - Spike will learn his brutal lessons with the hopelessness of The Buffy Bot and the very real "trial by fire" at the hands of Glory.
Truth, Innocence, Reality, Growth, and the hardest lessons of all in life, the finality of death; except if you have Willow around - that is what Xander, Spike, Dawn and Buffy are all learning.
While Xander acts really vicious but with good intent of trying to protect Buffy, Spike with equally good intent is trying to protect and help Dawn - GOOD INTENTIONS - BAD RESULTS by both. Xander will have his own tragic lessons about truth and reality in "Hells Bells" and Spike has his wonderful heroic real life triumph in "Intervention."
Xander has a great heroic world saving day against Willow.
Just because some of us do contrast Xander to Spike, that does not mean to we don't pay attention to the story lines and what each characters has done - both the good and the bad.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
What a great Xander war this has been! Thanks for the topic, Scarlet.
Lot's of great points being made from both sides, but I doubt I'll ever be swayed. Xander was a good comic foil for Spike and vice-versa. They were both snarky as hell, and never missed a chance to pour salt in the wound. But there were other, quieter moments between them that seemed to indicate they didn't hate each other as much as they claimed to. I wouldn't call them tender Hallmark moments exactly - more a sort of fist-bumpin' respect. How about in "Spiral," when Xander lights Spike's cigarette. Even in Bargaining, there's a sort of a mute apology in Xander when he tries to explain why he didn't tell him about the spell. And as roomates, there a sort of bon-homie lurking just under the surface that I think let's you know that despite their verbal sparring there's a sort of kinship there, like a common denominator. And it's pretty clear what that is to me: they both love Buffy.
Lot's of great points being made from both sides, but I doubt I'll ever be swayed. Xander was a good comic foil for Spike and vice-versa. They were both snarky as hell, and never missed a chance to pour salt in the wound. But there were other, quieter moments between them that seemed to indicate they didn't hate each other as much as they claimed to. I wouldn't call them tender Hallmark moments exactly - more a sort of fist-bumpin' respect. How about in "Spiral," when Xander lights Spike's cigarette. Even in Bargaining, there's a sort of a mute apology in Xander when he tries to explain why he didn't tell him about the spell. And as roomates, there a sort of bon-homie lurking just under the surface that I think let's you know that despite their verbal sparring there's a sort of kinship there, like a common denominator. And it's pretty clear what that is to me: they both love Buffy.
Jun 23 2008 11:51 pm #53pfeifferpack
From The Replacement by Jane Espenson:
Giles: And when it hit Xander, I think it separated him into his strongest points and his weakest.
RILEY: But which one's the real one?
GILES: They're both real. They're both Xander. Neither one of them is evil. There's nothing in either of them that our Xander doesn't already possess.
GILES: But the two halves can't exist without each other. Kill the weaker Buffy half, and the slayer half dies.
BUFFY: So the same goes for the Xanders. We lose one, we lose them both.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Exactly! He was a mix of both the best and worst in most of us and very human for it.
Same for Angel (at least on his own series where he was more than a two dimensional character with a different name for each dimension!
My problem with Riley is I never got many facets with him and the one I kept seeing was not one I liked but that is for another discussion. Sad because I like the actor.
Kathleen
ITA with LB....they BOTH love Buffy and love deeply those they claim friend to. It is not hard to write them as friends (just as it is easy to write them as to the death enemies) they had both in them with the right motivation. I suppose we merely hope a human would be "above" some of the things that Spike sans soul is often given a break on by his legion of fans....then again....his detractors tend to hold Spike to that human standard so it all evens out. LOL
Giles: And when it hit Xander, I think it separated him into his strongest points and his weakest.
RILEY: But which one's the real one?
GILES: They're both real. They're both Xander. Neither one of them is evil. There's nothing in either of them that our Xander doesn't already possess.
GILES: But the two halves can't exist without each other. Kill the weaker Buffy half, and the slayer half dies.
BUFFY: So the same goes for the Xanders. We lose one, we lose them both.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Exactly! He was a mix of both the best and worst in most of us and very human for it.
Same for Angel (at least on his own series where he was more than a two dimensional character with a different name for each dimension!
My problem with Riley is I never got many facets with him and the one I kept seeing was not one I liked but that is for another discussion. Sad because I like the actor.
Kathleen
ITA with LB....they BOTH love Buffy and love deeply those they claim friend to. It is not hard to write them as friends (just as it is easy to write them as to the death enemies) they had both in them with the right motivation. I suppose we merely hope a human would be "above" some of the things that Spike sans soul is often given a break on by his legion of fans....then again....his detractors tend to hold Spike to that human standard so it all evens out. LOL
Kathleen - what a strong and intriguing point. I never thought of the split Xander in quite that way... it makes several tons of sense. Hmmm...
The scene they share in "After Life" outside the house felt very much like a pair of siblings to me, used to needling each other back and forth. But as the scene progresses, they both let their guard down a little... there's this moment where its sort of like Spike saying 'No, this is NOT our normal witty banter, I'm serious about this' and Xander is like 'OK, I get it, but I don't really have a good answer because it was Willow's decision.' There were a lot of scenes between those two where it felt like they were doing the whole "unspoken conversation" that guys are always doing with each other. We're not very verbal and hardly ever discuss our real feelings, so almost 90% of the personal stuff we say to each other is buried in the context of us acting like jerks. Growing up, my best mates and I used to skewer and belittle each other ruthlessly, all the time. And some of the most violent fistfights of my life have been with my brother and my best friends. Maybe that accounts for a little of why I don't see some of the animus that so many others do.
In other words, could it be that Xander and Spike's relationship was to much of a guy thing for girls to understand?
The scene they share in "After Life" outside the house felt very much like a pair of siblings to me, used to needling each other back and forth. But as the scene progresses, they both let their guard down a little... there's this moment where its sort of like Spike saying 'No, this is NOT our normal witty banter, I'm serious about this' and Xander is like 'OK, I get it, but I don't really have a good answer because it was Willow's decision.' There were a lot of scenes between those two where it felt like they were doing the whole "unspoken conversation" that guys are always doing with each other. We're not very verbal and hardly ever discuss our real feelings, so almost 90% of the personal stuff we say to each other is buried in the context of us acting like jerks. Growing up, my best mates and I used to skewer and belittle each other ruthlessly, all the time. And some of the most violent fistfights of my life have been with my brother and my best friends. Maybe that accounts for a little of why I don't see some of the animus that so many others do.
In other words, could it be that Xander and Spike's relationship was to much of a guy thing for girls to understand?
Riley, here on this thread like the series, seems to not be especially interesting to the readers or viewers - But he is a very important part of the Buffy story and a major player of the Initiative arc - should we start another thread for Riley Only since this thread is getting long or should we keep him as part of this topic as originally intended?
Either way is fine with me -
Sad because I like the actor.
Blucas did a wonderful interpretation of Riley -
Xander in his split form makes such an excellent theme - His less confident and self-doubting side while pleasant was doomed to failure - while his assertive and model for "successful player" while effective and much more powerful was totally willing to wipe out his weaker persona. Like the splendid original Star Trek episode, James Kirk finds that he needs that aggressive very ugly dark side to be powerful enough to command a star ship. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, like Angel/Angelus is the perfect example of extremes of domination -
Either way is fine with me -
Sad because I like the actor.
Blucas did a wonderful interpretation of Riley -
Xander in his split form makes such an excellent theme - His less confident and self-doubting side while pleasant was doomed to failure - while his assertive and model for "successful player" while effective and much more powerful was totally willing to wipe out his weaker persona. Like the splendid original Star Trek episode, James Kirk finds that he needs that aggressive very ugly dark side to be powerful enough to command a star ship. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, like Angel/Angelus is the perfect example of extremes of domination -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 24 2008 04:46 am #56pfeifferpack
LB you might well be on to something. I don't think we are from different planets (and do a fairly better than average job of "getting" it with men) but we do not think the same way or relate the same way. That may indeed be the crux of the problem! It may also be a reason Xander appears to be more beloved with male fans than female (not just Spike's fangirls either).
I did pick up many a moment of friendly subtext between the two that is one reason I can easily see them become friends with the right reason.
Kathleen
I did pick up many a moment of friendly subtext between the two that is one reason I can easily see them become friends with the right reason.
Kathleen
Jun 24 2008 07:12 am #57Scarlet Ibis
The scene they share in "After Life" outside the house felt very much like a pair of siblings to me, used to needling each other back and forth. But as the scene progresses, they both let their guard down a little... there's this moment where its sort of like Spike saying 'No, this is NOT our normal witty banter, I'm serious about this' and Xander is like 'OK, I get it, but I don't really have a good answer because it was Willow's decision.'
You make an intriguing point, lb. Thinking back on it, when Spike shoves him against the tree (and it's obvious how distraught he is), and Anya's all like "hey!" and stuff, Xander does seem....remorseful? Apologetic, perhaps. I think Buffy finally being back was like Xander putting on an old shoe, and old habits emerging once again. The comment in and of itself was Xander sounding like a dick, but his actions afterwards show that perhaps that was not his intention. Perhaps he really was just inappropriately and badly needling Spike "like old times." But because of Spike's reaction, he realizes that now wasn't the time. Even though he did look all miffed once Spike left, though some of that could be because Spike accused Willow of doing something nefarious, and at that point, Xander just couldn't believe Willow of being capable of such a thing, or was in denial about it...
Well anyway, that makes me feel sort of better about that whole exchange :P
You make an intriguing point, lb. Thinking back on it, when Spike shoves him against the tree (and it's obvious how distraught he is), and Anya's all like "hey!" and stuff, Xander does seem....remorseful? Apologetic, perhaps. I think Buffy finally being back was like Xander putting on an old shoe, and old habits emerging once again. The comment in and of itself was Xander sounding like a dick, but his actions afterwards show that perhaps that was not his intention. Perhaps he really was just inappropriately and badly needling Spike "like old times." But because of Spike's reaction, he realizes that now wasn't the time. Even though he did look all miffed once Spike left, though some of that could be because Spike accused Willow of doing something nefarious, and at that point, Xander just couldn't believe Willow of being capable of such a thing, or was in denial about it...
Well anyway, that makes me feel sort of better about that whole exchange :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
And some of the most violent fistfights of my life have been with my brother and my best friends. Maybe that accounts for a little of why I don't see some of the animus that so many others do.
I might take it even beyond the "a guy thing" - maybe viewers and fans that have a more negative reaction to Xander are people who are more "outsiders" and relate and respond to his treatment of Spike from that perspective and maybe fans who would be extremely uncomfortable with verbally aggressive behavior also have more negative reactions to Xander - we respond much more to this character because he does symbolize the normal human being. Since Spike takes the part of a supernatural character his aggression and violence does not effect the fans as much as Xander, the normal human that we can identify with.
Buffy is so aggressive and violent, but her supernatural status also gives her some distance from a normal human - plus her character is so conflicted - one time all love and compassion and the scene she can be a total bitch. Another factor - since she is the major character, the foundation for the entire series, the writers are able to give more screen time in explanation for her behavior; or not.
I might take it even beyond the "a guy thing" - maybe viewers and fans that have a more negative reaction to Xander are people who are more "outsiders" and relate and respond to his treatment of Spike from that perspective and maybe fans who would be extremely uncomfortable with verbally aggressive behavior also have more negative reactions to Xander - we respond much more to this character because he does symbolize the normal human being. Since Spike takes the part of a supernatural character his aggression and violence does not effect the fans as much as Xander, the normal human that we can identify with.
Buffy is so aggressive and violent, but her supernatural status also gives her some distance from a normal human - plus her character is so conflicted - one time all love and compassion and the scene she can be a total bitch. Another factor - since she is the major character, the foundation for the entire series, the writers are able to give more screen time in explanation for her behavior; or not.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I agree with your point, nmcil. Fans do react more to Xander's negative faults, maybe because they appeare more human as well as the fact that Xander has no pressure of supernatural strengths or vampire nature and that's why fans hold him to a higher standard than other characters.
Take Spike's relationship with Harmony and Xander's with Anya. Spike appeares more abusive and hurtful toward Harmony and yet no one seemed to criticize him, the excuses are he's soulless and she's soulless so it's okay. Xander says a few hurtful words to Anya and then fans jump with accusations regardless to the excuses over Xander's behavior.
Take Spike's relationship with Harmony and Xander's with Anya. Spike appeares more abusive and hurtful toward Harmony and yet no one seemed to criticize him, the excuses are he's soulless and she's soulless so it's okay. Xander says a few hurtful words to Anya and then fans jump with accusations regardless to the excuses over Xander's behavior.
Jun 26 2008 06:02 pm #60Scarlet Ibis
Take Spike's relationship with Harmony and Xander's with Anya. Spike appeares more abusive and hurtful toward Harmony and yet no one seemed to criticize him, the excuses are he's soulless and she's soulless so it's okay. Xander says a few hurtful words to Anya and then fans jump with accusations regardless to the excuses over Xander's behavior.
Actually, I don't use the "they're soulless" for Spike and Harm. I think the difference here is that Spike never claims to have loved Harmony, and she knows it. In fact, their relationship was way healthier than oh say, Pete and what's her name in s3, who were human (well, initially on one end) and had souls. Spike and Harm definitely had a relationship marked in the "it's complicated" box, but she did love him. He may not have loved her, but that didn't stop him from being monogamous and confiding in her.
Anya and Xander on the other hand were supposed to have defined as a more of a genuine relationship. Xander proves that he does care about Anya in s4, but he still tries to change her. Not only that, their initial relationship was only about sex, but Xander gets sick with the funny syphllyis, and we see that it's more than that (to Anya).
Actually, I don't use the "they're soulless" for Spike and Harm. I think the difference here is that Spike never claims to have loved Harmony, and she knows it. In fact, their relationship was way healthier than oh say, Pete and what's her name in s3, who were human (well, initially on one end) and had souls. Spike and Harm definitely had a relationship marked in the "it's complicated" box, but she did love him. He may not have loved her, but that didn't stop him from being monogamous and confiding in her.
Anya and Xander on the other hand were supposed to have defined as a more of a genuine relationship. Xander proves that he does care about Anya in s4, but he still tries to change her. Not only that, their initial relationship was only about sex, but Xander gets sick with the funny syphllyis, and we see that it's more than that (to Anya).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
He may not have loved her, but that didn't stop him from being monogamous and confiding in her.
C'mon, though. Spike didn't give a red lick about Little Ms. Convenient. He stuck a stake in the girl for pete's sakes! That was Spike as user and abuser. And he was only monogamous by circumstance, not by choice. Dru dumped him and Buffy wanted nothing to do with him.
C'mon, though. Spike didn't give a red lick about Little Ms. Convenient. He stuck a stake in the girl for pete's sakes! That was Spike as user and abuser. And he was only monogamous by circumstance, not by choice. Dru dumped him and Buffy wanted nothing to do with him.
Anya and Xander on the other hand were supposed to have defined as a more of a genuine relationship.
Anya was not the model of perfection to Xander either. Anya often said hurtful and humiliating things to and about Xander. Anya had a very twisted view of morality and civility, and wouldn't spare someone's feelings if it meant not saying exactly what she was thinking exactly when she felt like saying it. Her obsession with money I think was an outgrowth of having little to no empathy for anyone, including Xander.
Maybe it was a consequence of being in the revenge business for so long, and she certainly learned and grew as the series progressed, but in some ways I think Xander was seeing echoes of his relationship with Cordelia, who had thoroughly used and abused his feelings in all the worst ways. I mean, of course Xander found himself wanting to "change" that, right?
Jun 27 2008 03:02 am #63Scarlet Ibis
And he was only monogamous by circumstance, not by choice. Dru dumped him and Buffy wanted nothing to do with him.
Uh, circumstance? I don't think so. I was mostly referring to s4, since that was when they were actually a couple (and when he wasn't interested in Buffy). Season five didn't count--they were just kickin' it, and Harmony was aware (not that she wasn't aware that he wasn't in love with her before). It's true that Dru didn't want him, but to say that he was considered undesirable to the other ladies in the demon world, or hey, even humans (as seen in s7) is just plain untrue.
Anya often said hurtful and humiliating things to and about Xander.
Embarassing, perhaps. But referring to their great sex is hardly hurtful--it's complimentary, though inappropriate. And Anya never criticized Xander--not till he left her at the altar, anyway. And comparing their relationship to his with Cordelia's is totally wrong--Cordelia gave just as much, if not more than she got from Xander. Xander just constantly nit picked at Anya and her behavior. "We discussed this, Anya," as if she were a child or something.
Uh, circumstance? I don't think so. I was mostly referring to s4, since that was when they were actually a couple (and when he wasn't interested in Buffy). Season five didn't count--they were just kickin' it, and Harmony was aware (not that she wasn't aware that he wasn't in love with her before). It's true that Dru didn't want him, but to say that he was considered undesirable to the other ladies in the demon world, or hey, even humans (as seen in s7) is just plain untrue.
Anya often said hurtful and humiliating things to and about Xander.
Embarassing, perhaps. But referring to their great sex is hardly hurtful--it's complimentary, though inappropriate. And Anya never criticized Xander--not till he left her at the altar, anyway. And comparing their relationship to his with Cordelia's is totally wrong--Cordelia gave just as much, if not more than she got from Xander. Xander just constantly nit picked at Anya and her behavior. "We discussed this, Anya," as if she were a child or something.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 27 2008 03:56 am #64Immortal Beloved
And he was only monogamous by circumstance, not by choice.
I'm with Scarlet on this one, lb. I find it absolutely impossible that Spike wouldn't have been able to get a girl if he had wanted to. If the female population of Sunnydale could be considered a small sampling of the female population at large, then I daresay he could boink a good number of women, demon or human, living on the Hellmouth. And, if you need empirical evidence, just think about the bouncer in "Sleeper." He told Buffy that the not-her-boyfriend guy was a real player, had a different girl every night. If Spike wasn't sleeping around, it was by choice.
Embarassing, perhaps. But referring to their great sex is hardly hurtful--it's complimentary, though inappropriate. And Anya never criticized Xander--not till he left her at the altar, anyway. And comparing their relationship to his with Cordelia's is totally wrong--Cordelia gave just as much, if not more than she got from Xander. Xander just constantly nit picked at Anya and her behavior. "We discussed this, Anya," as if she were a child or something.
Ditto, Scarlet. One of the things that I don't care for in Xander's character is his treatment of Anya. That woman loved him. She would have done anything for him. She was even ready to marry him even though she personally witnessed 1120 years of bad breakups. I believe Xander loved Anya, but I always felt that he wasn't satisfied with her for some reason. I'm sure Buffy had something to do with it, but I don't think that was all. He did treat her like a child. In a way, she did experience the world through a child's eyes in that everything was new to her. But when Halfrek questioned the relationship, I actually found myself agreeing with thevengeance justice demon. It's possible that perhaps it was a carryover from his parents' relationship, but we don't see enough of them to draw any conclusions. I don't think he realized what he had until after Anya refused to date her ex-fiance. Certainly, Xander is not the first person to only realize he had something good until it was gone, but I always felt that something was holding him back from her.
Oh, and as for wildly inappropriate, but positive comments: "He's a viking in the sack." ;-)
I'm with Scarlet on this one, lb. I find it absolutely impossible that Spike wouldn't have been able to get a girl if he had wanted to. If the female population of Sunnydale could be considered a small sampling of the female population at large, then I daresay he could boink a good number of women, demon or human, living on the Hellmouth. And, if you need empirical evidence, just think about the bouncer in "Sleeper." He told Buffy that the not-her-boyfriend guy was a real player, had a different girl every night. If Spike wasn't sleeping around, it was by choice.
Embarassing, perhaps. But referring to their great sex is hardly hurtful--it's complimentary, though inappropriate. And Anya never criticized Xander--not till he left her at the altar, anyway. And comparing their relationship to his with Cordelia's is totally wrong--Cordelia gave just as much, if not more than she got from Xander. Xander just constantly nit picked at Anya and her behavior. "We discussed this, Anya," as if she were a child or something.
Ditto, Scarlet. One of the things that I don't care for in Xander's character is his treatment of Anya. That woman loved him. She would have done anything for him. She was even ready to marry him even though she personally witnessed 1120 years of bad breakups. I believe Xander loved Anya, but I always felt that he wasn't satisfied with her for some reason. I'm sure Buffy had something to do with it, but I don't think that was all. He did treat her like a child. In a way, she did experience the world through a child's eyes in that everything was new to her. But when Halfrek questioned the relationship, I actually found myself agreeing with the
Oh, and as for wildly inappropriate, but positive comments: "He's a viking in the sack." ;-)
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Here's a question, since we've brought up Spike and Harmony... how come the way Buffy treated Spike in season 6 (used him for sex, physically and verbally abused him, even though she knew he loved her) is unacceptable, but Spike's treatment of Harmony is A-okay? Didn't Spike do all the same things? He used her for sex; he physically and verbally abused her. She was in love with him, and he knew it, and he used that to manipulate her into doing what he wanted.
If Spike wasn't sleeping around, it was by choice.
I agree that Spike is monogamous by choice... it's the pattern we've always seen from him, goes along with him being love's bitch. However, I'm not sure that he was with Harmony by choice. Getting a woman and keeping a woman are two very different things. Sure, Spike could pick up a woman in a bar, no problem, but a long term monogamous relationship like Spike tends to have would require him 'fessing up about being a vampire. Maybe he'd be lucky and find a girl who doesn't mind, or even a willing blood donor, but I think it'd be a hard sell. I don't think he'd make it with most demons, because of the chip. Harmony was perfect because she was so in love with him that she didn't mind his shortcoming.
If Spike wasn't sleeping around, it was by choice.
I agree that Spike is monogamous by choice... it's the pattern we've always seen from him, goes along with him being love's bitch. However, I'm not sure that he was with Harmony by choice. Getting a woman and keeping a woman are two very different things. Sure, Spike could pick up a woman in a bar, no problem, but a long term monogamous relationship like Spike tends to have would require him 'fessing up about being a vampire. Maybe he'd be lucky and find a girl who doesn't mind, or even a willing blood donor, but I think it'd be a hard sell. I don't think he'd make it with most demons, because of the chip. Harmony was perfect because she was so in love with him that she didn't mind his shortcoming.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 27 2008 04:34 am #66Immortal Beloved
However, I'm not sure that he was with Harmony by choice. Getting a woman and keeping a woman are two very different things. Sure, Spike could pick up a woman in a bar, no problem, but a long term monogamous relationship like Spike tends to have would require him 'fessing up about being a vampire.
True. Harmony was the rebound girl. I don't he really cared who he was with after Dru dumped him. I can see him thinking, "I'm I can't have my black goddess, anyone will do for now." Until, of course, he finally realized that he was in love with Buffy. Then he had someone else to obsess over and didn't need Harmony to fill the void anylonger.
As for Spike's mistreatment of Harmony, it is a reflection of his relationship with Buffy, if only on a smaller scale. Spike did take out all of his frustrations and disappointments about women out on her because she was there and she would take it. Sound familiar? It almost seems like karmic retribution, but I don't think I'd take it that far. Harmony didn't deserve the abuse, but neither did Spike. I don't think that Spike even notices the similarities between the two relationships until he and Harmony are sitting at the bar in AtS Season 5. She tells him that of course Buffy would welcome him back with open arms, no questions asked, because Harmony would do the same. In fact, she did when he escaped from the Initiative. A little light seems to go off in Spike's head at that moment: "Bugger, maybe I shouldn't be so mean to Harm."
True. Harmony was the rebound girl. I don't he really cared who he was with after Dru dumped him. I can see him thinking, "I'm I can't have my black goddess, anyone will do for now." Until, of course, he finally realized that he was in love with Buffy. Then he had someone else to obsess over and didn't need Harmony to fill the void anylonger.
As for Spike's mistreatment of Harmony, it is a reflection of his relationship with Buffy, if only on a smaller scale. Spike did take out all of his frustrations and disappointments about women out on her because she was there and she would take it. Sound familiar? It almost seems like karmic retribution, but I don't think I'd take it that far. Harmony didn't deserve the abuse, but neither did Spike. I don't think that Spike even notices the similarities between the two relationships until he and Harmony are sitting at the bar in AtS Season 5. She tells him that of course Buffy would welcome him back with open arms, no questions asked, because Harmony would do the same. In fact, she did when he escaped from the Initiative. A little light seems to go off in Spike's head at that moment: "Bugger, maybe I shouldn't be so mean to Harm."
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jun 27 2008 04:35 am #67Scarlet Ibis
Here's a question, since we've brought up Spike and Harmony... how come the way Buffy treated Spike in season 6 (used him for sex, physically and verbally abused him, even though she knew he loved her) is unacceptable, but Spike's treatment of Harmony is A-okay? Didn't Spike do all the same things? He used her for sex; he physically and verbally abused her. She was in love with him, and he knew it, and he used that to manipulate her into doing what he wanted.
Well, for starters, Harmony wasn't Spike's dirty little secret. He never made her tell him "I love you," knowing full well that he didn't feel the same, and he didn't beat her. Beyond the staking and the "I love syphillis more than you" comment, I can't recall him calling her much of anything else. With Buffy, it was a constant barage of verbal abuse. Furthermore, Spike genuinely thought that as abusive as she was, that she loved him back. He was wrong, of course.
Sure, Spike could pick up a woman in a bar, no problem, but a long term monogamous relationship like Spike tends to have would require him 'fessing up about being a vampire. Maybe he'd be lucky and find a girl who doesn't mind, or even a willing blood donor, but I think it'd be a hard sell.
Well, Spike and Harmony hooked up pre-chip. Not only that, if Spike wanted to, he could have turned a human he fancied before the chip if there was one he was truly interested in. Harmony's initial purpose is "rebound girl." Which she is also aware--she knows all about his history with Dru, and how badly it ended, and that he clearly wasn't ready to be in another relationship, but I think she was happy to say "my boyfriend," and let the other stuff slide.
Well, for starters, Harmony wasn't Spike's dirty little secret. He never made her tell him "I love you," knowing full well that he didn't feel the same, and he didn't beat her. Beyond the staking and the "I love syphillis more than you" comment, I can't recall him calling her much of anything else. With Buffy, it was a constant barage of verbal abuse. Furthermore, Spike genuinely thought that as abusive as she was, that she loved him back. He was wrong, of course.
Sure, Spike could pick up a woman in a bar, no problem, but a long term monogamous relationship like Spike tends to have would require him 'fessing up about being a vampire. Maybe he'd be lucky and find a girl who doesn't mind, or even a willing blood donor, but I think it'd be a hard sell.
Well, Spike and Harmony hooked up pre-chip. Not only that, if Spike wanted to, he could have turned a human he fancied before the chip if there was one he was truly interested in. Harmony's initial purpose is "rebound girl." Which she is also aware--she knows all about his history with Dru, and how badly it ended, and that he clearly wasn't ready to be in another relationship, but I think she was happy to say "my boyfriend," and let the other stuff slide.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
I think of Spike and Harmony getting together as Spike was probably drunk and depressed and picked up Harmony in a bar for a one night stand or something, and then he just couldn't get rid of her. Scarlet, you're right that they hooked up pre-chip, but we only saw them together for one episode before Spike gets taken by the Initiative. If that hadn't happened, I don't think he'd have stayed with her as long as he did. He might've tried finding another vampire (or vamping a human he liked), but once he had the chip, he was pretty much stuck with her or nobody.
As for the Spike/Harmony and Spike/Buffy similarities, it may be a smaller scale, but I don't think what Spike does to Harmony is by any stretch of the imagination an acceptable or functional relationship. It's still abuse. Other than the two things you mentioned, Scarlet, he pretty much treats her like crap all the time. He's dismissive of her desires (unless he wants sex), he pushes her around, and he's just outright mean. In "Harsh Light of Day," he's constantly telling her to shut up, calling her a stupid bint, etc. He pretends to care about her so she'll feed him once he escapes from the Initiative. In season 5, when he's in love with Buffy, he actually makes her dress up in Buffy's clothes and role play - that's pretty sick. Not to mention completely forgetting she exists when he's preoccupied with his Buffy/Drusilla plan in "Crush" and throwing her over a desk as soon as he's corporeal in "Destiny."
Also, I'm not so sure that Harmony knew Spike didn't love her. Her view of the relationship is clearly different from Spike's - much the way Buffy and Spike see their relationship differently. I think Harmony felt like if she just spent enough time with him, put up with enough abuse, if she could just get him to stop focusing on the Slayer, it would turn into the relationship she wanted. And isn't that pretty much exactly how Spike felt about Buffy?
As for the Spike/Harmony and Spike/Buffy similarities, it may be a smaller scale, but I don't think what Spike does to Harmony is by any stretch of the imagination an acceptable or functional relationship. It's still abuse. Other than the two things you mentioned, Scarlet, he pretty much treats her like crap all the time. He's dismissive of her desires (unless he wants sex), he pushes her around, and he's just outright mean. In "Harsh Light of Day," he's constantly telling her to shut up, calling her a stupid bint, etc. He pretends to care about her so she'll feed him once he escapes from the Initiative. In season 5, when he's in love with Buffy, he actually makes her dress up in Buffy's clothes and role play - that's pretty sick. Not to mention completely forgetting she exists when he's preoccupied with his Buffy/Drusilla plan in "Crush" and throwing her over a desk as soon as he's corporeal in "Destiny."
Also, I'm not so sure that Harmony knew Spike didn't love her. Her view of the relationship is clearly different from Spike's - much the way Buffy and Spike see their relationship differently. I think Harmony felt like if she just spent enough time with him, put up with enough abuse, if she could just get him to stop focusing on the Slayer, it would turn into the relationship she wanted. And isn't that pretty much exactly how Spike felt about Buffy?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 27 2008 06:16 am #69Scarlet Ibis
he pretty much treats her like crap all the time.
Not all the time--tries to lie to Buffy about her whereabouts, then he hides her from Buffy, plays the games she wants to play to pass the time (though I think he enjoyed the company), and speaking of games, she's the one who brings up playing one--he doesn't force her to play the role of the Slayer. That's stretching it. She knew he was infatuated with the Slayer, or slayers, and asks him if he wants to play a game. As for "Destiny", she willingly went with him to the office--there was no surprise there that he wanted to have sex with her. Harmony really isn't that stupid.
In "Harsh Light of Day," he's clearly preoccupied and hellbent on finding the gem--all of their interactions that follow that aren't nearly as bad, nor is he constantly telling her to shut up. As for pretending to care so she'll feed him, that lasts for like five minutes, and then she kicks him out on his ass, which is how he ended up seeking Giles' help in the first place.
As for Harmony not knowing Spike loved her or not, there's no way to be sure on whether or not she believed that he did. But with Buffy and Spike, we know without question that he believed that she loved him. And I agree with IB--Harm and Spike's dysfunctional/abusive relationship was nowhere near the levels of Spike and Buffy's. I mean, Buffy didn't even acknowledge that they in fact had a relationship. In the words of Seth Gecko, Spike was a bastard, but he wasn't a fucking bastard.
Not all the time--tries to lie to Buffy about her whereabouts, then he hides her from Buffy, plays the games she wants to play to pass the time (though I think he enjoyed the company), and speaking of games, she's the one who brings up playing one--he doesn't force her to play the role of the Slayer. That's stretching it. She knew he was infatuated with the Slayer, or slayers, and asks him if he wants to play a game. As for "Destiny", she willingly went with him to the office--there was no surprise there that he wanted to have sex with her. Harmony really isn't that stupid.
In "Harsh Light of Day," he's clearly preoccupied and hellbent on finding the gem--all of their interactions that follow that aren't nearly as bad, nor is he constantly telling her to shut up. As for pretending to care so she'll feed him, that lasts for like five minutes, and then she kicks him out on his ass, which is how he ended up seeking Giles' help in the first place.
As for Harmony not knowing Spike loved her or not, there's no way to be sure on whether or not she believed that he did. But with Buffy and Spike, we know without question that he believed that she loved him. And I agree with IB--Harm and Spike's dysfunctional/abusive relationship was nowhere near the levels of Spike and Buffy's. I mean, Buffy didn't even acknowledge that they in fact had a relationship. In the words of Seth Gecko, Spike was a bastard, but he wasn't a fucking bastard.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Pardon me for saying so, but aren't we getting a little off track here :P
* Mounts the ramparts again *
Xander & Cordelia: Xander - at this point a young man risking his life to save the inhabitants of an ungrateful, wretched, spoiled little 'berg - was demeaned and made to feel like dirt by a spoiled, self-centered dimwit named Cordelia Chase.... That is a fact, come on. Cordelia treated every character like an afterthought, something that existed solely for her amusement or use, and Xander was NO DIFFERENT. Cordelia was rotten to her very core... I cannot understand how no one sees how she ruined him... I cannot understand that.
Xander & Willow: urst.
Xander & Buffy: URST!
Xander & Giles: URST?
(OK that's a bad joke)
By the time Anya comes calling, Xander is a basketcase with women. But Anya is NOT a woman. Anya is a tornado of evil, responsible for mass genocides and who views humanity and particularly men as antlike... sound like any ex-Xander-girlfriend we know? Still Anya becomes infatuated with Xander and even builds up his confidence a little. But when Anya asks Xander to flee Sunnydale with him due to the impending apocalypse, Xander declines... he prefers to stand and fight and probably die alongside his friends... THAT"S HORRIBLE JERKFACE XANDER FOR YOU, ALWAYS OUT FOR HIMSELF!!! :P
* Mounts the ramparts again *
Xander & Cordelia: Xander - at this point a young man risking his life to save the inhabitants of an ungrateful, wretched, spoiled little 'berg - was demeaned and made to feel like dirt by a spoiled, self-centered dimwit named Cordelia Chase.... That is a fact, come on. Cordelia treated every character like an afterthought, something that existed solely for her amusement or use, and Xander was NO DIFFERENT. Cordelia was rotten to her very core... I cannot understand how no one sees how she ruined him... I cannot understand that.
Xander & Willow: urst.
Xander & Buffy: URST!
Xander & Giles: URST?
(OK that's a bad joke)
By the time Anya comes calling, Xander is a basketcase with women. But Anya is NOT a woman. Anya is a tornado of evil, responsible for mass genocides and who views humanity and particularly men as antlike... sound like any ex-Xander-girlfriend we know? Still Anya becomes infatuated with Xander and even builds up his confidence a little. But when Anya asks Xander to flee Sunnydale with him due to the impending apocalypse, Xander declines... he prefers to stand and fight and probably die alongside his friends... THAT"S HORRIBLE JERKFACE XANDER FOR YOU, ALWAYS OUT FOR HIMSELF!!! :P
Jun 27 2008 07:11 am #71Scarlet Ibis
Cordelia was rotten to her very core... I cannot understand how no one sees how she ruined him... I cannot understand that.
Buh? Ruined him how?
He got the hottest chick in high school. She poo pooed all of her popular friends to be with him and his lame ones (well, they were the lames of the school. Cept for Oz). That was like uber self esteem boost. On top of that, she deemed him "locker material." That was something special. If anyone got kicked in their esteem, it was Cordelia when she found out he was cheating on her with Willow.
When he was waiting by Buffy's bedside when she was sick with a fever in s2, the girl Cordelia knew he was still crushing on, she took the time to buy him his favorite doughnuts and coffee to keep up his strength. And besides, they treated each other like crap--that is, when they were treating each other like crap, which wasn't always.. Xander was in fact treasure of the "We Hate Cordelia" club. And as for her being dimwitted, well, I can't recall anything specific right this second, but she had some really good comebacks.
Buh? Ruined him how?
He got the hottest chick in high school. She poo pooed all of her popular friends to be with him and his lame ones (well, they were the lames of the school. Cept for Oz). That was like uber self esteem boost. On top of that, she deemed him "locker material." That was something special. If anyone got kicked in their esteem, it was Cordelia when she found out he was cheating on her with Willow.
When he was waiting by Buffy's bedside when she was sick with a fever in s2, the girl Cordelia knew he was still crushing on, she took the time to buy him his favorite doughnuts and coffee to keep up his strength. And besides, they treated each other like crap--that is, when they were treating each other like crap, which wasn't always.. Xander was in fact treasure of the "We Hate Cordelia" club. And as for her being dimwitted, well, I can't recall anything specific right this second, but she had some really good comebacks.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
I can't believe I'm at war with the person who started the "Let's be fair to Xander" thread!
He got the hottest chick in high school. She poo pooed all of her popular friends to be with him and his lame ones
Hmmm... No, I seem to remember Cordelia treated Xander like the bubonic plague in public, "Heathers" and "Breakfast Club" style. Cordelia liked Xander... because hey, he is likeable... but not as much as she liked herself. She was not a sympathetic character... she is introduced demeaning and bullying WILLOW of all people... its no small wonder why Cordelia dumps Xander after his hookup with Willow... how dare SOMEONE AS LAME AS XANDER betray her with SOMEONE AS LAME AS WILLOW?!
Its just not natural! It's against the social order! HrrrrrrrUMPH!
He got the hottest chick in high school. She poo pooed all of her popular friends to be with him and his lame ones
Hmmm... No, I seem to remember Cordelia treated Xander like the bubonic plague in public, "Heathers" and "Breakfast Club" style. Cordelia liked Xander... because hey, he is likeable... but not as much as she liked herself. She was not a sympathetic character... she is introduced demeaning and bullying WILLOW of all people... its no small wonder why Cordelia dumps Xander after his hookup with Willow... how dare SOMEONE AS LAME AS XANDER betray her with SOMEONE AS LAME AS WILLOW?!
Its just not natural! It's against the social order! HrrrrrrrUMPH!
Jun 27 2008 07:45 am #73Scarlet Ibis
Hey, I'm totally fair to Xander, but you got to give credit where credit is due :P
Yes, Cordelia was shallow and a total bitch, but she did a one-eighty for Xander. As for the Willow comment, it had nothing to do with her "lame" status, cause Buffy's shared said status, but what I'm saying is, it's something she never saw coming. Buffy, okay, Faith, okay, but Willow, who's his BFF and like his sister? That had to have been an awful shock of cold water. And you keep mentioning her treatment of Xander...what about his treatment of her? He was big with the name calling too. This is just like when people were saying that Xander was a big meanie cause he made fun of Spike. Well guess what? They all were with the petty name calling. Xander and Spike were both guilty to one another, and so was Xander and Cordelia. Xander's not. That. Inn-o-cent ;)
Oh yeah, I'm showing my age...
Yes, Cordelia was shallow and a total bitch, but she did a one-eighty for Xander. As for the Willow comment, it had nothing to do with her "lame" status, cause Buffy's shared said status, but what I'm saying is, it's something she never saw coming. Buffy, okay, Faith, okay, but Willow, who's his BFF and like his sister? That had to have been an awful shock of cold water. And you keep mentioning her treatment of Xander...what about his treatment of her? He was big with the name calling too. This is just like when people were saying that Xander was a big meanie cause he made fun of Spike. Well guess what? They all were with the petty name calling. Xander and Spike were both guilty to one another, and so was Xander and Cordelia. Xander's not. That. Inn-o-cent ;)
Oh yeah, I'm showing my age...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Yeah, but Buffy only "shared said status" because she deigned to hang out with real, worthwhile people, instead of the soulless, mindless automatons that Cordelia preferred. Cordelia looked down on anyone who was not like her... yet we don't hear any "Cordelia is a Hitller stand-in" comparisons from anybody. Cordy was a great character, but she was the Anti-Xander. Sacrafice was not in her vocabulary. I was SURE that they would turn Cordy into a vampire... they turned her equally horrid BFF Harmony into a vampire instead, to show how little difference there would be. When your soul is already the size of a nickel, what's a little vampirism?
MAYBE I'm being a little hard on Cordy, but Xander was on the defensive in that relationship. Yes, they exchanged insults... but IMO Xander's insults had the added benefit of being true.
MAYBE I'm being a little hard on Cordy, but Xander was on the defensive in that relationship. Yes, they exchanged insults... but IMO Xander's insults had the added benefit of being true.
Jun 27 2008 08:07 am #75Scarlet Ibis
Um...yeah...
Doesn't Cordelia eventually hang out with same said "real people?" And Hitler stand-in? I would say that you're definitely being way harsh on Cordelia, and I'm not getting why.
As for her not making sacrafices, I'm guessing you didn't watch Ats at all--she made sacrafices up and down that show. Cordelia is one of the few characters who made the most growth and transition from the start of the series to when her role ended. Even when she was Queen Shallow, she was aware of what she was and how she was acting--she wasn't totally clueless, nor was she one dimensional. And Harmony actually got some depth after becoming a vampire. Or maybe it started right when high school ended. Meh.
Doesn't Cordelia eventually hang out with same said "real people?" And Hitler stand-in? I would say that you're definitely being way harsh on Cordelia, and I'm not getting why.
As for her not making sacrafices, I'm guessing you didn't watch Ats at all--she made sacrafices up and down that show. Cordelia is one of the few characters who made the most growth and transition from the start of the series to when her role ended. Even when she was Queen Shallow, she was aware of what she was and how she was acting--she wasn't totally clueless, nor was she one dimensional. And Harmony actually got some depth after becoming a vampire. Or maybe it started right when high school ended. Meh.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Scarlet, I think Cordy grew a lot on Angel! Heck, so did Wes! I never said I thought Cordy was Hitler, I just said no one ever makes that comparison, although they are quick to portray poor Xander that way, even on this thread. The fact that when she was Queen Shallow she knew how she was acting was what was so bad about it IMO. I don't think she was one-dimensional, I just think she was "Heather" from "Heathers" and "Claire" from "The Breakfast Club"... don't make me quote lines from that last one or I'LL show my age :)
Harmony got some depth on Angel? I will have to think about that Scarlet, but I do remember this exchange from NFA (one of my favorites in either series):
ANGEL: You betrayed me. You are betraying me now, even as we are talking.
HARMONY: Because you never have any confidence in me.
ANGEL: No, because you have no soul.
HARMONY: I would if you had confidence in me!
On the subject of Spike and his fans ignoring his evil ways - I don't think that in general Spike fans ignore and excuse Spike's treatment of Harmony - When Spike stakes Harmony with as little concern for her as if she were a fly in his way - that is probably the Low Point of Spike, worst than even the attempted rape. Spike's cold- blooded use of Harmony to test out the ring was absolutely wrong, inexcusable, disgusting, heartless, anyone can add their words to the list. Spike's treatment of Harmony comes back on with equal measure at the hands of Buffy in Season Six. When you see Harmony again with the Scoobies her "being a Vampire Sucks" is so sad - we know Harmony is shallow and not especially bright but at that moment we are reminded of her humanity and see her as a woman again, not just a vampire that is suppose to not have any capacity for love or strong affection. Was it the same huge love that Spike's felt for Buffy? No, it was not and maybe it is some of that Karma that Spike will find much greater suffering in Season Six than he brings to Harmony.
I think that we can all agree that Harmony was Spike's girl at his sufferance and that she would have been much better off without her Blondie Bear. I can't help but think of Harmony as the First Buffybot - I think she even wears pink in their Buffy Hunter Game.
Scarlet Ibis:
"Actually, I don't use the "they're soulless" for Spike and Harm. I think the difference here is that Spike never claims to have loved Harmony, and she knows it. In fact, their relationship was way healthier than oh say, Pete and what's her name in s3, who were human (well, initially on one end) and had souls.
Excellent Point - matter of fact these two human reflect more the Buffy-Spike horrors and emotional dynamics of Buffy-Spike Season Six with all the hidden violence and abuse.
There is no way that Spike's staking of Harmony can not be taken as Spike's at his vampiric worst and he is still very mean to her when he first comes to W&H - as someone else posted - he does not even clue into the similarities between both relationship until that bar scene and how he did hurt her -
I always like Cordelia - and I also think that Xander and Cordelia both gave out the harsh words - they wrote some great lines for these two - their relationship brings in another example of Xander at his Wonderful Best and Wonderful Worst - he is gracious and compassionate with buying her prom dress and not speaking of word about Cordelia having to work at that shop and he is so wrong in cheating on her with Willow.
Was great watching HLOD again - loved how Spike goes for that Green Gem and wanks it off the DEAD BODY and Harmony's great "too good for clasp" line.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
As for "Destiny", she willingly went with him to the office--there was no surprise there that he wanted to have sex with her. Harmony really isn't that stupid.
Spike isn't stupid, either. And he willingly went along with Buffy when she wanted to have sex. That doesn't seem to make the fact that she was using him any more palatable, so I don't think Harmony's feelings should get blown off so easily.
Cordelia was rotten to her very core
LB, I'm with you that Cordelia was by and large a bitch to everyone in early "Buffy." I can't, however, agree with this statement. If she truly were rotten to her very core, then there'd be no way to explain the growth she went through. She obviously did care about other people, and she was capable of turning into a remarkably selfless and self-sacrificing person. That doesn't happen by magic - it had to be in her the whole time, even if it was buried under layers of bitchiness. Even on "Buffy," before her great evolution on "Angel," we saw hints of the person she'd become when she let her guard down and let herself be vulnerable.
I would agree with Scarlet that you're being way too harsh on Cordelia - I hate to say it, but you sound an awful lot like the Xander-haters who can only come up with the bad things he did, and totally ignore the good ones. Maybe we all have our preferences, but again - does it kill us to be objective?
When Spike stakes Harmony with as little concern for her as if she were a fly in his way - that is probably the Low Point of Spike, worst than even the attempted rape.
I really don't think most fans see this as Spike's low point. I honestly don't think many Spike fans see Harmony as anything more than a blip on the radar screen. She was unimportant to Spike, and she's unimportant to his fans.
Spike isn't stupid, either. And he willingly went along with Buffy when she wanted to have sex. That doesn't seem to make the fact that she was using him any more palatable, so I don't think Harmony's feelings should get blown off so easily.
Cordelia was rotten to her very core
LB, I'm with you that Cordelia was by and large a bitch to everyone in early "Buffy." I can't, however, agree with this statement. If she truly were rotten to her very core, then there'd be no way to explain the growth she went through. She obviously did care about other people, and she was capable of turning into a remarkably selfless and self-sacrificing person. That doesn't happen by magic - it had to be in her the whole time, even if it was buried under layers of bitchiness. Even on "Buffy," before her great evolution on "Angel," we saw hints of the person she'd become when she let her guard down and let herself be vulnerable.
I would agree with Scarlet that you're being way too harsh on Cordelia - I hate to say it, but you sound an awful lot like the Xander-haters who can only come up with the bad things he did, and totally ignore the good ones. Maybe we all have our preferences, but again - does it kill us to be objective?
When Spike stakes Harmony with as little concern for her as if she were a fly in his way - that is probably the Low Point of Spike, worst than even the attempted rape.
I really don't think most fans see this as Spike's low point. I honestly don't think many Spike fans see Harmony as anything more than a blip on the radar screen. She was unimportant to Spike, and she's unimportant to his fans.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
If she truly were rotten to her very core, then there'd be no way to explain the growth she went through. She obviously did care about other people, and she was capable of turning into a remarkably selfless and self-sacrificing person.
E - when I say "rotten" I guess I mean "spoiled rotten." Look Cordy wasn't more or less flawed than anyone else. But she stood out as a symbol of how Xander and Willow would view themselves, I think. It's true that, in their Scooby circle, Cordy was the outsider looking in. To some extent, so was Oz. I loved the "Dennis" episode of Angel... it really dug to Cordelia's core, made her face some hard facts about herself and the world and everyone in it. Cordelia had her good traits, too. Over the course of the shows, she became very self-possesed, and rarely ever lied. That's all I meant when I compared Anya to Cordy. For me, Anya was like a Super-Cordelia - unfiltered, un-empathetic but trying to fit in with people who she used to torment. I thought it was kind of mature showing Xander trying to fit Anya in the context of his past relationships, and failing miserably to overcome his own insecurities. Maybe "love" was the one area where Xander wasn't really "brave"... perhaps it was his Achilles Heel.
E - when I say "rotten" I guess I mean "spoiled rotten." Look Cordy wasn't more or less flawed than anyone else. But she stood out as a symbol of how Xander and Willow would view themselves, I think. It's true that, in their Scooby circle, Cordy was the outsider looking in. To some extent, so was Oz. I loved the "Dennis" episode of Angel... it really dug to Cordelia's core, made her face some hard facts about herself and the world and everyone in it. Cordelia had her good traits, too. Over the course of the shows, she became very self-possesed, and rarely ever lied. That's all I meant when I compared Anya to Cordy. For me, Anya was like a Super-Cordelia - unfiltered, un-empathetic but trying to fit in with people who she used to torment. I thought it was kind of mature showing Xander trying to fit Anya in the context of his past relationships, and failing miserably to overcome his own insecurities. Maybe "love" was the one area where Xander wasn't really "brave"... perhaps it was his Achilles Heel.
Jun 27 2008 11:42 pm #80Scarlet Ibis
I never said I thought Cordy was Hitler, I just said no one ever makes that comparison, although they are quick to portray poor Xander that way, even on this thread.
I wouldn't say anyone compared him to Hitler, though he does take a beating from a lot of people for some reason. Oh, and I said Harm got depth becoming a vampire, but this could also be because she fell in love--maybe that was what it was.
When Spike stakes Harmony with as little concern for her as if she were a fly in his way - that is probably the Low Point of Spike
I repsectully disagree. That was more of a "shut the hell up!" moment born from extreme frustration. Once he has the gem, he doesn't try to stake her again.
Spike isn't stupid, either. And he willingly went along with Buffy when she wanted to have sex. That doesn't seem to make the fact that she was using him any more palatable, so I don't think Harmony's feelings should get blown off so easily.
I think the big difference though is that Spike and Harmony were out in the open--I find it more offensive to not only be someone's sex toy, but their secret sex toy on top of that. Also, Spike didn't always willingly go with Buffy (insert "Gone" here). I don't recall Spike ever forcing Harmony.
As for Spike fans not caring about Harmony, I don't think that's true. For me personally, I felt more sympathetic with her at the end of "Harsh Light of Day" then I did for Anya. Harmony may be the littlest vampire, and views are skewed, but I think she definitely became more likable once she was turned. Also, she did have good intentions in general (cept for that whole screwing over Angel thing). But I do agree when you say that Spike trying to stake her wasn't a low point.
Maybe "love" was the one area where Xander wasn't really "brave"... perhaps it was his Achilles Heel.
In the romantic sense? Definitely. I don't think he was trying to fit Anya into this Cordelia shaped box though--he was mostly confused at first as to why she kept hanging around him. And Cordelia's bluntness was different from Anya's bluntness. Cordelia just didn't give a damn where as Anya just didn't know any better. Cordelia said things with a certain directness, and Anya said them more matter of factly. If anyone on the show was a Cordelia type replacement, then that role would have gone to Spike.
I wouldn't say anyone compared him to Hitler, though he does take a beating from a lot of people for some reason. Oh, and I said Harm got depth becoming a vampire, but this could also be because she fell in love--maybe that was what it was.
When Spike stakes Harmony with as little concern for her as if she were a fly in his way - that is probably the Low Point of Spike
I repsectully disagree. That was more of a "shut the hell up!" moment born from extreme frustration. Once he has the gem, he doesn't try to stake her again.
Spike isn't stupid, either. And he willingly went along with Buffy when she wanted to have sex. That doesn't seem to make the fact that she was using him any more palatable, so I don't think Harmony's feelings should get blown off so easily.
I think the big difference though is that Spike and Harmony were out in the open--I find it more offensive to not only be someone's sex toy, but their secret sex toy on top of that. Also, Spike didn't always willingly go with Buffy (insert "Gone" here). I don't recall Spike ever forcing Harmony.
As for Spike fans not caring about Harmony, I don't think that's true. For me personally, I felt more sympathetic with her at the end of "Harsh Light of Day" then I did for Anya. Harmony may be the littlest vampire, and views are skewed, but I think she definitely became more likable once she was turned. Also, she did have good intentions in general (cept for that whole screwing over Angel thing). But I do agree when you say that Spike trying to stake her wasn't a low point.
Maybe "love" was the one area where Xander wasn't really "brave"... perhaps it was his Achilles Heel.
In the romantic sense? Definitely. I don't think he was trying to fit Anya into this Cordelia shaped box though--he was mostly confused at first as to why she kept hanging around him. And Cordelia's bluntness was different from Anya's bluntness. Cordelia just didn't give a damn where as Anya just didn't know any better. Cordelia said things with a certain directness, and Anya said them more matter of factly. If anyone on the show was a Cordelia type replacement, then that role would have gone to Spike.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
In the romantic sense? Definitely.
Yes! Sorry, of course I meant that. Xander "loved" his friends WAY more than himself, and was as brave as ten marines when it came to them. But in the romance department, didn't it seem like Xander was always waiting for the other shoe to drop? And yeah, I agree, Xander couldn't believe Anya, Cordelia or anyone else would be interested in him. On a show about heroes with low-esteem, I think Xander might have had the lowest. Even Willow eventually found a comfort zone with herself, I think.
Yes! Sorry, of course I meant that. Xander "loved" his friends WAY more than himself, and was as brave as ten marines when it came to them. But in the romance department, didn't it seem like Xander was always waiting for the other shoe to drop? And yeah, I agree, Xander couldn't believe Anya, Cordelia or anyone else would be interested in him. On a show about heroes with low-esteem, I think Xander might have had the lowest. Even Willow eventually found a comfort zone with herself, I think.
When Spike stakes Harmony with as little concern for her as if she were a fly in his way - that is probably the Low Point of Spike, worst than even the attempted rape. I really don't think most fans see this as Spike's low point.
I honestly don't think many Spike fans see Harmony as anything more than a blip on the radar screen. She was unimportant to Spike, and she's unimportant to his fans.
Can't speak for anyone else, but from my POV, if we can dismiss Spike's abhorrent action against Harmony, and especially based on her importance or lack of importance to Spike - why should we apply another standard to Buffy's treatment of him? It is exactly this utter lack of concern for her, the same lack of concern and brutality of The Alley Scene, that so many of the viewers found so reprehensible, that makes both cases outside acceptable behavior. Does Faith's killing of the professor matter? I am sure he had absolutely no importance in her life but still we would hold her accountable for the killing. The only way that I would be able to reconcile Spike's stabbing of Harmony as inconsequential would be if my criteria of measure would be restricted only in Vampire Social Structures. I may be totally illogical but if I am going to say that Buffy's actions against him and his attempted rape are completely wrong, if I want to apply human standards to those actions, than I will also apply that standard to his stabbing of Harmony -
I honestly don't think many Spike fans see Harmony as anything more than a blip on the radar screen. She was unimportant to Spike, and she's unimportant to his fans.
Can't speak for anyone else, but from my POV, if we can dismiss Spike's abhorrent action against Harmony, and especially based on her importance or lack of importance to Spike - why should we apply another standard to Buffy's treatment of him? It is exactly this utter lack of concern for her, the same lack of concern and brutality of The Alley Scene, that so many of the viewers found so reprehensible, that makes both cases outside acceptable behavior. Does Faith's killing of the professor matter? I am sure he had absolutely no importance in her life but still we would hold her accountable for the killing. The only way that I would be able to reconcile Spike's stabbing of Harmony as inconsequential would be if my criteria of measure would be restricted only in Vampire Social Structures. I may be totally illogical but if I am going to say that Buffy's actions against him and his attempted rape are completely wrong, if I want to apply human standards to those actions, than I will also apply that standard to his stabbing of Harmony -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 28 2008 06:47 am #83Scarlet Ibis
if we can dismiss Spike's abhorrent action against Harmony, and especially based on her importance or lack of importance to Spike - why should we apply another standard to Buffy's treatment of him?
I don't think we should keep making these blanket statements for Spike fans--there wasn't a vote or anything. And the stabbing itself was more of a "ha ha" moment (though not literally). Like when Spike tries to stake himself later, it's not presented as a serious scene, though he is in fact attempting suicide.
I don't think we should keep making these blanket statements for Spike fans--there wasn't a vote or anything. And the stabbing itself was more of a "ha ha" moment (though not literally). Like when Spike tries to stake himself later, it's not presented as a serious scene, though he is in fact attempting suicide.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
I don't think we should necessarily take the way the scene is presented as an indication of how we should react to the action. The storyteller is biased (and that's not a slam - the storyteller is always biased somehow), and just because the storyteller wants us to find it funny doesn't mean it is. Take "Gone," for example. Spike trying to say no to Buffy and Buffy forcing him into sex anyway is played as a comic moment - but in any other situation, it'd be completely unacceptable (and in fact, it is portrayed as unacceptable, when it's Spike forcing Buffy).
Spike staking Harmony may have been played for laughs, but that doesn't make it any less of a horrible thing for him to do. When you take a step back and look at the action objectively, it says a lot about Spike (and none of it good).
Spike staking Harmony may have been played for laughs, but that doesn't make it any less of a horrible thing for him to do. When you take a step back and look at the action objectively, it says a lot about Spike (and none of it good).
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Take "Gone," for example. Spike trying to say no to Buffy and Buffy forcing him into sex anyway is played as a comic moment - but in any other situation, it'd be completely unacceptable (and in fact, it is portrayed as unacceptable, when it's Spike forcing Buffy).
Eowyn if its the scene I think you mean in "Gone".... it wasn't funny.... It was hysterical. "Hey, that's cheating."
I have to admit I can think of no situation in which that behavior would be unacceptable. :P
Eowyn if its the scene I think you mean in "Gone".... it wasn't funny.... It was hysterical. "Hey, that's cheating."
I have to admit I can think of no situation in which that behavior would be unacceptable. :P
I know I'm the one that brought it up, but I didn't really think of Spike jamming a stake in Harmony as anything more then an extension of his character. As I saw him, he was sort of a nihilistic jerk who rather liked to hurt stuff. Am I wrong about that? And if I am, then what was the whole point of his salvation? Why bother with salvation if you're already so bloody good to begin with? :P
Buffy and the Scoobs jammed stakes in vampires constantly. It was sort of their job, and if they didn't those vampires were going to eat anything that wasn't nailed down, right? Hey look, you're supposed to have empathy for anything that walks and talks, but the Buffyverse didn't really present itself that way most of the time. Angel was presented as a "special" sort of a monster, because of his feelings of guilt and remorse. And, arguably, Spike was also shown as a "special" sort of monster, even in early on, because -while he was an exceptional killer- he had an unexplainable ability to fall in love... vampires weren't supposed to be able to do that, right? Of the three, it seemed to me that Drusilla was the "pure" monster; a scary Ophelia type who found flawed killers like Spike amusing and was mostly just hungry and evil.
Buffy and the Scoobs jammed stakes in vampires constantly. It was sort of their job, and if they didn't those vampires were going to eat anything that wasn't nailed down, right? Hey look, you're supposed to have empathy for anything that walks and talks, but the Buffyverse didn't really present itself that way most of the time. Angel was presented as a "special" sort of a monster, because of his feelings of guilt and remorse. And, arguably, Spike was also shown as a "special" sort of monster, even in early on, because -while he was an exceptional killer- he had an unexplainable ability to fall in love... vampires weren't supposed to be able to do that, right? Of the three, it seemed to me that Drusilla was the "pure" monster; a scary Ophelia type who found flawed killers like Spike amusing and was mostly just hungry and evil.
Jun 28 2008 08:35 pm #87Scarlet Ibis
but I didn't really think of Spike jamming a stake in Harmony as anything more then an extension of his character. As I saw him, he was sort of a nihilistic jerk who rather liked to hurt stuff.
You're absolutely right, lb. It seems strange to complain about him trying to stake his vampire gf to get her to be quiet (which is way more kind than the acceptable cutting off her head or setting her on fire) who when we first see him in an episode, breaks a guy's neck cause he was "too old to eat." E, you're right in the sense that it shouldn't have been funny (though I still think it is) cause of the biased view of the storyteller, but I think comparing it to "Gone" is also inaccurrate. lb makes the point that we're supposed to expect Spike to be a bastard, and it's weird to be disappointed in him when he actually is. But Buffy isn't supposed to be, so being disappointed in her makes sense.
Buffy and the Scoobs jammed stakes in vampires constantly. It was sort of their job, and if they didn't those vampires were going to eat anything that wasn't nailed down, right?
lb, I'm thinking some people found it so offensive when Spike did it to Harm cause she was his gf. I still don't think it was "one of the worse Spike moments" ever. That's being a bit melodramatic, I think.
You're absolutely right, lb. It seems strange to complain about him trying to stake his vampire gf to get her to be quiet (which is way more kind than the acceptable cutting off her head or setting her on fire) who when we first see him in an episode, breaks a guy's neck cause he was "too old to eat." E, you're right in the sense that it shouldn't have been funny (though I still think it is) cause of the biased view of the storyteller, but I think comparing it to "Gone" is also inaccurrate. lb makes the point that we're supposed to expect Spike to be a bastard, and it's weird to be disappointed in him when he actually is. But Buffy isn't supposed to be, so being disappointed in her makes sense.
Buffy and the Scoobs jammed stakes in vampires constantly. It was sort of their job, and if they didn't those vampires were going to eat anything that wasn't nailed down, right?
lb, I'm thinking some people found it so offensive when Spike did it to Harm cause she was his gf. I still don't think it was "one of the worse Spike moments" ever. That's being a bit melodramatic, I think.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Scarlet, I always tell the same story about how I got into this show, it's so ironic. My girlfriend at the time was SUPER into it, literally taping shows and watching them twice, and when Buffy was on, I was not allowed access to the TV, to her, or even to my own vocal chords. I remember being more than a little disturbed when I watched my first show with her, because of the violence I was seeing involving women and men.
Some people here know that (in my tertiary life) I cover Boxing for several online publications. Most people think of Boxing as a brutal sport, and over the course of my life I've seen it's mainstream popularity go way, way down because of that. But for me, it is the most beautiful and meaningful sport ever invented - blood, guts, grit and all. My father boxed in the army, my grandfather boxed in the marines and, up until the time I discovered that music, drugs and girls were more entertaining than running three miles a day to get my face punched in, I boxed down at the Front Street Gym in Philadelphia. Since I've taken up the pen again, I've had the occasion to catch a few women's bouts on undercards, and it didn't bother me at all. Some were better than others, but seeing women enjoying a good fight with each other made sense and didn't seem exploitative. But somehow watching the fake violence on Buffy, with leering adult men punching women in the face, had been a real "WTF?" moment for me. I didn't know much about the show, so I kept imagining that kids would be watching it and thinking that it was a pretty good idea to practice your flying roundhouse kicks on a woman's forehead.
Well, then after one marathon night of all of the clever dialogue, literary references and smashing fight choreagraphy, I came to believe that the violence in the show was symbolic of other things. Like, Spike sticking a stake in his GF wasn't about actual, psychotic bloodletting, but about how Spike was a jerk to his girlfriend and walked all over her. Had it been a human like Xander doing it to his human GF, a thing like that I think would have a more sinister feel to it. I think they used the Trio and particularly Warren to explore that in their storyline. It's funny when its Spike and Harm, because they are fairybook monsters, but in the context of the human Warren and his human "girlfriend"/ victim, its horrific. I think it was supposed to be that way.
Some people here know that (in my tertiary life) I cover Boxing for several online publications. Most people think of Boxing as a brutal sport, and over the course of my life I've seen it's mainstream popularity go way, way down because of that. But for me, it is the most beautiful and meaningful sport ever invented - blood, guts, grit and all. My father boxed in the army, my grandfather boxed in the marines and, up until the time I discovered that music, drugs and girls were more entertaining than running three miles a day to get my face punched in, I boxed down at the Front Street Gym in Philadelphia. Since I've taken up the pen again, I've had the occasion to catch a few women's bouts on undercards, and it didn't bother me at all. Some were better than others, but seeing women enjoying a good fight with each other made sense and didn't seem exploitative. But somehow watching the fake violence on Buffy, with leering adult men punching women in the face, had been a real "WTF?" moment for me. I didn't know much about the show, so I kept imagining that kids would be watching it and thinking that it was a pretty good idea to practice your flying roundhouse kicks on a woman's forehead.
Well, then after one marathon night of all of the clever dialogue, literary references and smashing fight choreagraphy, I came to believe that the violence in the show was symbolic of other things. Like, Spike sticking a stake in his GF wasn't about actual, psychotic bloodletting, but about how Spike was a jerk to his girlfriend and walked all over her. Had it been a human like Xander doing it to his human GF, a thing like that I think would have a more sinister feel to it. I think they used the Trio and particularly Warren to explore that in their storyline. It's funny when its Spike and Harm, because they are fairybook monsters, but in the context of the human Warren and his human "girlfriend"/ victim, its horrific. I think it was supposed to be that way.
Of Course Spike staking Harmony was done for a laugh and is in character as Vamp Spike, - but I still hate to see Harmony being staked like that, and for me it really is one of Spike's low marks in the series. She was certainly good enough when he wanted to enjoy her body and get his sexual pleasure, it's not like she was just one of his minions and I felt sorry for her in that episode.
We had a long discussion on my old Buffy Board about trying to place RL judgements and standards onto the characters and the story lines - My problem has always been that I have a very hard time not using RL standards and social dynamics in my interpretations of the series. I view the Buffy and Angel series completely from my RL perspective - I love and respect all the work done with the both series, but everything about it is a way for me to think about my real world. If I didn't care about Harmony and how he staked her - why would I care about his journey and how the character develops. Harmony being staked by Spike is a measuring point for me of the changes and how the character develops and I think the incident was significant, it was to me anyway.
We had a long discussion on my old Buffy Board about trying to place RL judgements and standards onto the characters and the story lines - My problem has always been that I have a very hard time not using RL standards and social dynamics in my interpretations of the series. I view the Buffy and Angel series completely from my RL perspective - I love and respect all the work done with the both series, but everything about it is a way for me to think about my real world. If I didn't care about Harmony and how he staked her - why would I care about his journey and how the character develops. Harmony being staked by Spike is a measuring point for me of the changes and how the character develops and I think the incident was significant, it was to me anyway.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 29 2008 08:38 am #90Guest
Guest
Well, I for one hated Xander. I hate Xander, I hate, Xander, I hate Xander. Did I mention that I hate Xander. The one thing that I hated him this most was probably leaving Anya on what was suppose to be their wedding day.
Jun 29 2008 04:47 pm #91Immortal Beloved
Scarlet, I always tell the same story about how I got into this show, it's so ironic. My girlfriend at the time was SUPER into it, literally taping shows and watching them twice, and when Buffy was on, I was not allowed access to the TV, to her, or even to my own vocal chords.
Hot damn! I'm not the only one? When I started watching Buffy, I had the exact same rules for Mr. IB. I knew I was perfectly normal (well, in the crazy about Buffy sense); he thought I was going crazy. I'm gonna have to show him this :-)
And the stabbing itself was more of a "ha ha" moment (though not literally). Like when Spike tries to stake himself later, it's not presented as a serious scene, though he is in fact attempting suicide.
Spike trying to stake himself is definitely used comedic value. Seeing him feeling completely useless, standing on a chair (I think it was a chair) wearing that ridiculous Xander outfit, arms spread out like Jesus, reciting his swan song, goodbye-cruel-world speech, and then failing is freaking hilarious. It's also rather sad. The poor guy's been dumped by Dru--twice--had his gem stolen, rendered effectively useless as a vampire, had to ask his mortal enemy for help, has to room with a guy whom he wouldn't have bothered to eat, and on top of all that, shrunk his tough-guy clothes. And now, he can't even kill himself right. Spike's situation has the makings of a hit blues song. It's presented as a funny scene, but the best humor always has a deeper meaning. Likewise, the saddest things always have a bit of humor. Just because one appreciates the humor doesn't mean one can't appreciate Spike's despair, and just because one appreciates his despair doesn't mean one can't appreciate the humor. I've always seen humor, at least ironic humor, in life's worst moments. Sometimes things are so bad, we either have to laugh or cry.
I don't see Spike's staking of Harmony quite as ha-ha funny as his attempted suicide, but I don't see it as particularly sad or evil. In reality, when someone makes us angry or annoys the crap out of us, we sometimes say, "I'm gonna kill him/her." Most people don't mean it literally, but the rules are different in the Buffyverse. The humans in the Buffyverse have pretty much the same rules as we do in reality. They don't typically go around killing eachother. But the vampires are different. They don't have the same social taboos. Sure, they don't make a habit of killing their own kind, but it's not unheard of. Also, the Buffyverse vampires are soulless. Per the Buffyverse rules, a soulless monster has no conscience (I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm just pointing out the Buffyverse view). They have no internal Jiminy Cricket inside to hold them back, and no external laws to punish them. So, when Harmony gets on Spike's last nerve, he thinks, "I'm gonna kill her." And he does. Or tries to, at least :-P
Hot damn! I'm not the only one? When I started watching Buffy, I had the exact same rules for Mr. IB. I knew I was perfectly normal (well, in the crazy about Buffy sense); he thought I was going crazy. I'm gonna have to show him this :-)
And the stabbing itself was more of a "ha ha" moment (though not literally). Like when Spike tries to stake himself later, it's not presented as a serious scene, though he is in fact attempting suicide.
Spike trying to stake himself is definitely used comedic value. Seeing him feeling completely useless, standing on a chair (I think it was a chair) wearing that ridiculous Xander outfit, arms spread out like Jesus, reciting his swan song, goodbye-cruel-world speech, and then failing is freaking hilarious. It's also rather sad. The poor guy's been dumped by Dru--twice--had his gem stolen, rendered effectively useless as a vampire, had to ask his mortal enemy for help, has to room with a guy whom he wouldn't have bothered to eat, and on top of all that, shrunk his tough-guy clothes. And now, he can't even kill himself right. Spike's situation has the makings of a hit blues song. It's presented as a funny scene, but the best humor always has a deeper meaning. Likewise, the saddest things always have a bit of humor. Just because one appreciates the humor doesn't mean one can't appreciate Spike's despair, and just because one appreciates his despair doesn't mean one can't appreciate the humor. I've always seen humor, at least ironic humor, in life's worst moments. Sometimes things are so bad, we either have to laugh or cry.
I don't see Spike's staking of Harmony quite as ha-ha funny as his attempted suicide, but I don't see it as particularly sad or evil. In reality, when someone makes us angry or annoys the crap out of us, we sometimes say, "I'm gonna kill him/her." Most people don't mean it literally, but the rules are different in the Buffyverse. The humans in the Buffyverse have pretty much the same rules as we do in reality. They don't typically go around killing eachother. But the vampires are different. They don't have the same social taboos. Sure, they don't make a habit of killing their own kind, but it's not unheard of. Also, the Buffyverse vampires are soulless. Per the Buffyverse rules, a soulless monster has no conscience (I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm just pointing out the Buffyverse view). They have no internal Jiminy Cricket inside to hold them back, and no external laws to punish them. So, when Harmony gets on Spike's last nerve, he thinks, "I'm gonna kill her." And he does. Or tries to, at least :-P
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Re- Xander and Anya. I think both characters said awful things about one another, Anya's way of saying rude things to everybody -even Xander (I think it was The Replacement when Anya's behavior annoyed me regarding Xander) and Xander's inablity to deal with Anya's past were two factors that hurt their relationship. I guess the two needed to talk more than have sex. Like Xander had said to Anya in a S4 episode, relationships are more than just sex, which made Anya upset because she had this idea that sex was the most important thing in a relationship.
If you are under the age of 17, please use your head and do not read fics that are labeled "NC-17". Parents, I cannot control what your children are reading, so please be advised that the majority of the fics archived here are NOT suitable for those under the age of 17.
I do not own Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I am in no way making any profit from this site. This is for pure entertainment purposes only.
Concept: (c)bringonthebloodshed.com (2004), Code & Design: (c)Diabola (2006), Graphics: Selene & Always