Yeah I know that's a weird thread title.  Niamh got me to thinking after mentioning that "if i wanted that, I'd be dating spike" line was only one of many foreshadowing pieces of dialogue for the upcoming spuffy relationship, that you could catch it if you really paid attention to what was being said.

So now I'm intrigued...what lines from the show did you interpret as "spuffy foreshadowing"?

I'm not sure if it was foreshadowing exactly, but there was the break-up scene at the end of Lover's Walk where she tells Angel that Spike knows her.  SMG and JM definitely have an onscreen chemistry that she didn't have with the other actors.

Right, she said she can't lie to herself or "for some reason, spike."  I think that counts.

That's foreshadowing all right.

She said something to Riley also in season 4 about dating Spike.

I thought that was season Five's "out of my mind" where she said (talking about superpowers) "If that's what I wanted, I'd be dating Spike."

I seem to remember Buffy thinking Spike was hot in School Hard, though it has been a very long time since I have seen it, so I can't be sure I am remembering right :D

Doesn't she say something just after he sleeps with Faith?

Been too long for me to remember. I'd have to go watch again.

Caro Mio

For me, its not always about what was said, but more of the actions displayed. Im more of an 'actions speak louder than words' type of girl and the way Buffy and Spike always had this thing between them...this RAWR-type thing just kind of clued me in.

For one, they always fought with each other THE most and the hardest. No-one could rouse the other's ire more quickly nor could anyone else illicit that much irritation. Secondly, they've both had numerous occcasion where they could have done the other in quite easily and neither chose to take advantage for one reason or another whereas with anyone else it would have been snap*crackle*pop*dead/dust. The snark factor almost doubled and/or tripled when they were within speaking distance or were referring to the other in conversation.

They seemed to be polar-opposites on a good number of things as well. Spike is very heart on his sleeve whereas Buffy is more reserved.  He's very left-brained (bookish, persuasive, good verbal skills) whereas Buffy is more right-brained (physical, hands-on, intuitive). When it came to each other they were both volatile and hot-headed and when there was that much heat something was bound to spark.

hehe yes they did. hahaha.

Awww, you mean you don't bop your boyfriend on the head and let him pull your pigtails? Lmao

I was trying to come up with some foreshadowing and could not remember but another post reminded me. It was during season two when Kendra first showed up. It was the episode were Spike was trying to heal Dru. I believe Buffy or Spike said something about "I'd rather be fighting you."

We also can not forget Becoming pt2 I believe. Spike said "I want to save the world." Not actually Spuffy but it was the first time they worked together.

At least back then I had BSUA mailing list. (Buffy Spike Unholy Allies) I had my little Spuffy haven during the Buffy/Angel angst. Now there are more Spuffy sites. =)

yeah "i'd rather be fighting you" seems to show something personal at least, and we all know there's a thin line between love and hate.

Yes, there is a thin line. And I feel if things didn't progress to them falling for each other I would have felt cheeted. I mean it's only natural for feelings to develope, even in the warring place,lol. They sorta worked together then became unliekly allies then lovers. If it didn't move in that way I would have been pissed, but I said that already.

Me!? Well, I kinda let my friend who was a boy know I liked him. I would beat him up on a daily basis and take his lunch, but I was in second grade. Funny thing, when we were in the sixth grade that's when he FINALLY got the hint coughslow* *coughslow* and asked me out. I told him he missed his chance should have taken it back in 2ed. lol. But me and my hubby beat each other up all the time, all with the love taps, hee hee hee.

Hehe, no pain, no gain *giggles*

During that crazy episode where Jonathan was the Superstar, Spike is all over Buffy, touching her hair, telling her he'd like to get her alone without Jonathan.  He's just about to slide his hand down her neck when Jonathan interferes. 

Thought of another.  During Something Blue, it seems Spike snaps out of the spell before Buffy (before Willow even finishes turning off the spell).  Buffy's kissing him and he calls her Slayer and looks surprised.  Then proceeds to kiss her some more.  Of course, the two of them are hysterically ridiculous with the whole Lips of Spike, when they've plainly been enjoying themselves. 

hahaha both good points on the something blue and the superstar eps.

I wondered if anyone else noticed that on something blue. it was like spike was waiting for her reaction.  he probably would have gone back to kissing her had she not made the big reaction.  And then later with the guilt cookies, he's saying he still has buffy taste in his mouth.  PULEASE he so wanted her lol.

Oh also...during the body swap...the heated look he was giving faith in buffy's body when she approached him.

And while we're talking about heated looks, the very first time he saw her at the bronze dancing with her friends, the look in his eyes wasn't just murder predatory, it was sexual.  And before anyone says I'm trying to read something into it that wasn't there, JM has said many times in interviews from the very beginning, THAT scene, he played a sexual attraction to buffy because he knew as long as he was trying to kill her or kiss her he'd be getting work on that show.  And he was clearly right.

Also, on "Halloween" He took way too long with the killing her.  He had her vulnerable and he could have had her...but he took entirely too long about the killing.  An observant viewer might think he didn't really want her dead as much as he thought he did.  And then also on "Halloween" She has him at a bit of a disadvantage there at the end, and yeah, she's holding a metal pipe and not a stake, but you're telling me there was nothing wooden lying around? She basically stood back and allowed him to make his exit.  That could have been just the writers trying to keep their season 2 big bad alive for the rest of the season, but from a story perspective it appears very clear that neither wanted to kill the other, even that early on.

Oh...god I'm on a roll...in School Hard, during the fight, they are both flirting with the whole: "do we really need weapons for this" , "I just like them" exchange.

"Something Blue" was a huge clue - Willow's wording was about "marriage", not love. And we all know that people don't have to be in love to get married. Both parties don't even have to be happy about it. Still happens.

There was definitely attraction, and even a bit of possessive affection, in the "no one's killing my vampire/Slayer but me" kind of thing. Not that I really noticed any of the specifics when I was originally watching. I didn't come online about the show until right after season 5, cause I know they were continuing the show, but I wanted to know how Buffy was going to come back...so I didn't have anyone to discuss theories with. I'm so easy when watching stories...I just let them take me along, so with the Bangel thing I was like "awww", and then she started dating Riley, who i thought was a nice young man...thought Spike was hilarious and great comic relief....then he started helping with Dawn in season 5 and I liked him more, felt sorry for his unrequited feelings....and just rolled with it when they put then together in Season 6.

Fandom educated me as I went along, and it was like "ohhhhh!!!". Light bulb!

Caro Mio

I'm glad somebody mentioned the fact that the sexual predator looks in Season II were all James.  He made Spike a sexual creature and one who clearly saw Buffy as more than another snack.  It's hard to say where/when Joss decided that three years down the road he was going to have Spike fall in love with Buffy (considering that he was originally to be a desposable villain to be replaced by Angelus), but I don't put it past him to have been already thinking ahead that far once he decided to keep Spike undusty.  It would be great fun to be able to interview him and ask that question: "when did you start thinking in terms of Spike/Buffy?"

I read somewhere that SMG thought that Buffy and Spike should be together at the beginning of season 4, but Joss vetoed the idea. 

Actually, according to several sources, Sarah started campaigning for Spike to be Buffy's love interest long before Joss agreed.  Apparently, she thought it was a logical progression for Buffy to fall for Spike and she wanted James to come back.  Joss resisted the idea and kept saying "no more vamps", but Sarah persisted.  And not only Sarah, but some of the writers wanted JM back, because he gave Spike such depth and they knew he could act.  Basically, that's what Lover's Walk was, again straight from Joss' mouth -- an experiment to see how well Spike interacted with the other characters.  You'll notice he had scenes with just about everyone.

I think Sarah was also against the Buffy/Riley pairing.

Ack, that was me, Nia. . and duh, so is this

The more I think about it the more sense it makes. Sarah was in the right mind frame, it would only make total sense that Buffy would fall for Spike even before he feel for her, because well, she knew him he knew her, they were a perfect match for each other. Also may I mention Dru with her "You taste of ash." and her other ramblings. She saw something between them before there wa something and we all can't say it was just her way of foreseeing Spike's death. Can't help but wonder was the wheels turning in Joss' head when he first brought JM on the show even after he decided to sust Spike. Maybe he had this set up all along.

But that brings me to another thought, if he did indeed plan on having some Spuffy action then why such a hard time with it, putting Spike in such a spot. I get the whole evil soulless creature needing to repent for what he's done and all. But at the time he was evil and soulless, and the only thing he had was that chip. But he had changed a lot on his own, with no  help from Buffy or the scoobies. And then came season six, yay, but boo too. I know Buffy had major issues, but I like to see she did start to trust Spike, and look to him as something other than a monster until Xander and Willow started with their crap as well and Giles. She was so confussed and agry that she took it out all on him.

That season truly pissed me off to no end. I don't see how they could have let it go that way. Ok, I'm ranting and so shuting up now. *steps off soap box* hee hee hee

Sarah had the right idea, no Buffy/Riley, blech!

The more I think about it the more sense it makes. Sarah was in the right mind frame, it would only make total sense that Buffy would fall for Spike even before he feel for her, because well, she knew him he knew her, they were a perfect match for each other. Also may I mention Dru with her "You taste of ash." and her other ramblings. She saw something between them before there wa something and we all can't say it was just her way of foreseeing Spike's death. Can't help but wonder was the wheels turning in Joss' head when he first brought JM on the show even after he decided to sust Spike. Maybe he had this set up all along.

But that brings me to another thought, if he did indeed plan on having some Spuffy action then why such a hard time with it, putting Spike in such a spot. I get the whole evil soulless creature needing to repent for what he's done and all. But at the time he was evil and soulless, and the only thing he had was that chip. But he had changed a lot on his own, with no  help from Buffy or the scoobies. And then came season six, yay, but boo too. I know Buffy had major issues, but I like to see she did start to trust Spike, and look to him as something other than a monster until Xander and Willow started with their crap as well and Giles. She was so confussed and agry that she took it out all on him.

That season truly pissed me off to no end. I don't see how they could have let it go that way. Ok, I'm ranting and so shuting up now. *steps off soap box* hee hee hee

Sarah had the right idea, no Buffy/Riley, blech!

OK now I really like SMG...if SHE was a spuffy shipper way back then...well she's just our biggest cheerleader isn't she? lol.

Ah...now things are starting to make sense.  There were always rumblings that SMG was a big prima donna on the set but whenever anyone talked about her to JM, he always had only nice things to say about her.  Of course I've never seen Any interview where he ever said a bad thing about anyone...still.

This gives me a whole new perspective on some of the behind the scenes dynamic...and YAY she was against Briley.  That's one smart cookie there heh.  So yeah season three was to test Spike, I get that...and he passed with flying colors...it also seemed to be an episode about showing a slightly softer side of spike...because if they were bringing him back more long term, there obviously had to be a reason he and buffy didn't kill each other. (of course SMG had a solution to that...but would joss listen? heh.)

I guess then "something blue" could be like 'testing the waters for a spuffy relationship and laying groundwork for if they went in that direction ever.  I wonder now...since SMG was a spuffy shipper probably before almost anyone...how she felt about the way Spuffy first really manifested itself strongly in season six?  With all the abusive actions of Buffy towards Spike?

I would hope she hated as much as we did. I mean who would have thought the Slayer, well Buffy, could be an abuser. You expect that from Faith not her. And again with the whole demon angle, yeah Spike was a vamp and he thrived in violence and all that, but he also wanted to be loved. And it ripped my heart out that he allowed Buffy to use him and abuse him in the way that she did, sorta made me cring at her the way I did Dru... you know for using him too. *sigh* It was a total 360 to how they were in Something Blue, even though it was a spell. I would have loved to see them not as lovey dovey, but at least making with the moon eyes. I feel Joss sold us short. *grumbles*

Well in season seven, I really felt like that love was there.  I don't know why joss had to have the angel kissage, but they were really there together and she loved him.  I think. That's what it should have been from the beginning, if not for stupid writers and coming back from the dead angst.

Also, I don't accept "the immortal" as, in any way, shape or form, canon.  I don't care WHAT happened supposedly in the episode, we never saw buffy's face, and I'm not buying it.  Just cause Spike was off on Angel being heroic, doesn't mean buffy would have fallen right into another relationship.  I just don't see it.  Especially not with another morally ambiguous guy...considering how hard it was for her to let down her defenses with spike.

Sarah definitely didn't feel comfortable with where Buffy went in season 6. It was well publicized that she had disagreements with Joss over it. It's a big part of why she was so worn out by season 7 and not wanting to continue...the job was less fun.

And James has said plenty that he approached Joss with the idea for Spike to fall in love with Buffy, but he wanted it to remain unrequited, and be a driving force towards Spike's choice to change. He really didn't think at the time that they would have Buffy actually give in to Spike's advances.

Well, with the Immortal, one, the guy had to have some kind of charm mojo for how everybody in Rome was falling all over him with praise, so that could be an explanation. Two, it had been a year since Spike's death by the time they found her there. Three...it's possible she was "under cover"....but really, how's a girl supposed to resist all that shopping and attention? She definitely had to be lonely for adult company with Andrew and Dawn around. The Immortal is really the one that fits the label "convenient".

This is how I explain the immortal, Ducan McCloud. You know, the Highlander. That's the only logical way she would be with him, 'cause Ducan is HOT! Plus, they never showed her face, so how can we be certain that it was Buffy. And did Spike and Angel get close enough to smell if it was her?

Spike was Buffy's first real love love, Angel was a childhood puppy, star crossed lovers thing. And personally Riley was the rebund guy, and just way too normal for her. And we all know that by season 7, yes the love was there. She showed us the lovin. I find it really hard that after a year she would be over Spike and ready to date once again. I think she would still have been greaving, unless Willow preformed yet another spell.

But that brings me to something esle. Drusilla. She knew all this (the SPuffy lovein) would happen, and she knew when Spiek returned, I think that she would want to make him happy and would have done something to help him. But I could be wrong. (I think to much don't I?)

Yup, I'm with you there. I hiss and boo the writers with the "I've been ripped out of heaven, I can't feel, let me take it out on Spike," crap. We should have had almost happy Spuffy loven from the get go. We had that with Bangel and Biley, we should have gotten that with Spuffy. Hello, the soul thing, way over rated! See, this is why I love fanfic,lol. But if it wasn't for the show then we would have never gotten the canon stuff! So I will give Joss a cookie for that.

heh i think it was transferring some of that "bitchy buffy" onto SMG especially since she never did conventions and after buffy season seven just wanted to be done, but i can sort of understand that now.  And also, I guess she had to move on and do other things too.  It sounds a lot like she really loved the Buffy character and didn't particularly care for her being turned into a monster.

if buffy and spike had gotten their happy ending, there wouldnt' be so much passion out there about the fanfic.  We didn't really get it in canon, not completely in a happily ever after type way anyway...but now we can get it in indefinite other stories...so in a way, we now have the better deal. 

I had always wondered why she didn't do the conventions. I think she loved Buffy and I think if thinks went more in the other direction we would have gotten at least one more season, less doom and more fun happy moments. I don't know, oh well.

I think if the character I played was being destroyed like that, until there wasn't anything heroic left, I would have avoided conventions too.  Why go out of your way to support something that you don't truly believe in anymore?

She only ever did ComicCon, and those were in group settings. Always gotten the feeling she's very private, too...though it's just as easy for her to come off stuck-up, as sweet.

But yeah, by halfway into season 6, I wouldn't want to put myself into the way of fans if I couldn't give them a really good reason for Buffy being that way...like it was about to turn the corner....I think she would have been crucified on stage by all the Spike fans.

The only reason they didn't firmly come out on the Spuffy on the shows is that Joss didn't want to alienate the other fans while AtS was still going....he wanted to be able to give that tease of "will they or won't they" finally be together for good. I think they also would have resolved it more if SMG had come back for TGIQ. It's sounded that way, in talks afterward.

Oh - no one's mentioned Buffy's line to Willow in Season 7 - "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?" <i>Still</i> is the very important word there. Buffy blurted it out without thinking, so she actually said what she felt.

Caro Mio

Good points about her possibly being a very private person.  A lot of behaviors come off as being "snobby" and "bitchy" that aren't either.  And yeah...I wouldn't want to be SMG at ANY convention past season five with all the rabid spike fans.  That would be horrible.  

I mean who wants to deal with that? Especially when she didn't support the story choices to begin with.  I have a feeling that what went on behind the scenes, Joss comes off a little bit less pristine and she comes off a little less bitchy.

And I  hate that Joss was trying to continue that will they/won't they crap about Angel.  He seems to be a bangel fan.  I mean LET IT GO...Angel has his own show and he and buffy can't be together cause of the stupid curse.  If Buffy had been with Riley at the end of Season Seven, I can guarantee there wouldn't have been that stupid Angel crap.  That really annoys me.  We didn't NEED "will they/won't they" about the Bangel because we KNEW they weren't.  DUH.  Even if Angel Shanshu'd cause he'd already been human and decided it was too dangrous for him to be in her world where he couldn't protect her. bah.

That truly irks me.  The people who weren't letting go of dreams of bangel would have kept holding on without trying to keep the will they/won't they alive.  I just don't understand the point of it anymore when they aren't even on the same show.  There's really no justification to keep the sexual tension going, especially when she's been in two different relationships since then.

Also...why was Joss concerned about alienating the fans of AtS?  Surely he had to know, no one was watching AtS because they thought he and buffy might get back together...i mean HELLO she wasn't even on the same show!  Big clue there.

Also yeah...that line about "still being in love with him." we all knew it, but it was nice for her to admit it...which is why...when people get into these big arguments about how at the end of the show she never really loved spike, she just told him that (believe it or not there are some people, even spuffy fans who think this.) I just say: "um...hello...what about that line where..." If she was in love with him before the soul, she was definitely in love with  him after it.

Actually, Joss said that Spike is Buffy's true love.

Really?  Ok then i'm back on the Joss love train.  I'm so easily swayed lol.

The whole Bangel thing bugged me too. Angel does not love her! He's too fickle. It really pissed me off when they kissed at the end of season 7, especially after all of the angst over Cordelia. The moment she's in a coma he's off making out with Buffy. I mean, come on! The girl nearly dies helping him on his mission and he's off kissing Buffy. Then Cordelia does die and he runs off to Rome in order to chase after Buffy. (not to mention he's also sleeping with Nina at the time) In my opinion the writers gave both Spike and Cordelia the shaft. But I guess I should get off my soap box now or I'll be ranting for a while. =)

Joss said, during an interview that "Chosen" was about choices.  And Buffy made her choice -- and unless you are living under a rock, the only "choice" Buffy could make during that episode was who her heart belonged to.  And she pretty much said it.  Her last lines were:    "I love you."  And:  "Spike." 

So you tell me what that meant.

Also, in regard to TGiQ -- I never took that episode to be "about Buffy", truthfully, I think that crap in Rome was thrown together at the last minute after Joss knew AtS was being canceled.  However, what I do believe TGiQ was about -- was Fred.  And that episode was supposed to be all about Fred/Illyria and they had to refilm parts of it after the series got canceled.  Rome anyone?  I know they're an evil law firm and all, but same extact set?  Please, even my offspring isn't dumb enough to buy that one.

And another point about Morty -- while the "Highlander" theory does wonders to cross-over junkies, I'm thinking no, it was just some lame attempt, again, to explain why Buffy wasn't chasing after Spike.  I knew that wasn't Buffy, couldn't be Buffy and I'm thinking Spike probably knew it wasn't her either.  Although, kudos for trying to recreate School Hard and thumbs down for the falling very short of that. Anyway, back to Morty -- and Andrew's little speech -- I'm of the camp that believes Andrew kept his mouth shut - at least until this point --  although his speech was definitely directed at Angel -- Spike only heard it because he was accidentally there.

SMG and conventions -- look at it this way, people -- she was working 18 hours a day, six days a week, 8 months or more out of a year.  Would you want to be doing conventions?  I know I wouldn't.  I'd want to do nothing but not think about my day job -- because the danger is in becoming your day job.  Plus, you know?  Time to unwind and what not.   She was exhausted by the end, you can see it in her eyes and the way she was carrying herself.  She was tired, worn out and well, probably not at all happy with some of the story threads.

Neither she nor JM was happy about season 6 -- and while JM has said filming Seeing Red was hard on them both -- I'd venture a guess that from a certain point on (say before Dead Things)  the set was riddled with tension.  While it's all pretend and make-believe -- you're beating up on a co-worker, someone you've come to appreciate and perhaps, in a way, love -- and you are mercilessly beating on them.  And yeah, it is smoke and mirrors for a lot of it.  But you still have to get yourself in that mindset.  That cannot be easy.

By season 6 of BtVS, Joss had pretty much handed over the running of the show to Ms. Noxon.  And I'm not going to say anything else, unless you want a rant.

Yes Lady Y. I was completely disgusted by Angel's apparent inability to remain faithful to anyone.  I mean you're right what about Nina and Cordy? And also why was he even getting involved with Nina when he supposedly cared about Cordelia and she was in a coma?  None of it made sense.  He was way way too fickle and self absorbed.  Human or demon he's not good dating material.

Those are all good points Nia...It was a team of writers so Joss clearly can't be handed the full blame for all the story lines that happened.  Good point about conventions and probably why most main characters didn't do them...not that they were "too good" but they were freaking tired!

And yeah I agree with you about Buffy choosing Spike, but Joss also said in an interview that he was trying to give hope to both sets of Shippers.  So he was trying to make it look like it was possible Buffy and Angel could get back together, which pissed me off. It was completely unnecessary and unneeded and in some ways took away from the big love confession at the end.  At least she admitted to Angel that Spike was in her heart, but after that kiss it felt like a little too little too late. (although I suppose an argument could be made the other way as well.  She kissed Angel and it was nice and all, but it wasn't Spike...she chose Spike understanding what was once there with Angel.  It wasn't like she temporarily forgot about Angel, so I suppose it can be viewed in that manner too.)

I never noticed that in TGiQ they were trying to recreate School Hard, with the him watching her dance...DUH zoe lol.  gah.

And yeah...I feel sorry for both SMG and JM having to do those roles in season six, especially from "Dead Things" onward.  In some way, having to go to a set every day and work up emotions to carry out those actions...in some very real way you are experiencing those things with another person.  You can step out of it and go home and it's not the reality, more like a dream reality...but in something like season 6, we're talking about a waking nightmare most of the time.  Which couldn't have been fun for either person.

I really feel like actors...more than a lot of people put themselves through an emotional wringer for their craft.  All parts of the brain don't always get that acting isn't the same as real life...if something is playing out and the emotions are there, whether false or not...it can be difficult to separate that out at the end of the day.  I'm sure a lot of the tears in that season didn't have to be worked very hard for.  I highly doubt SMG had to sit and think "dead puppies, dead puppies" to work up the feeling.

I like the way one of the writers put it in an interview of something (I can't remember which one, poss Marta or Martha or whatever). Anyhu, she said that the Spuffy realtionship was real. Wheras the Bangel saga was full of secrets and hiden feelings (i.e. I will Remember You, Buffy not knowing Angel was a vampire, having to resort to mind reading to try and find out about the whole Faith thing in s3), the B/S relationship was always honest. They never lied to each other, she always knew exactly who he was. Even though he tried to keep secrets from her (his soul), he couldn't keep them for long and vice versa. Buffy told him everything before anyone else- her Mom getting sick and being in heaven. Their relationship was messy but it was real- which is why s5 of Angel pissed me off! to stay away from Buffy and keep this *collossal* secret from her was completely out of character. The Spike  shown to us in BtVS wouldn't have been able to do that- he knew she at least cared for him, and hates "seeing Summers women taking it so hard on the chin"- something he had 2 have known Buffy would be doing. That was pure Angel influence.

OK, so i've gone a bit off the thread topic, but that's my opinion combined with that writer person. ty :)

Oh come on, Nia...gimme a rant LMAO 

Let us know how you really feel about Ms Noxon LMAO

I think the fact that Buffy didn't de-invite Spike from her house with any sense of urgency is a bit of symbolic foreshadowing. Angel mid-way through season 3 is still de-invited from her house whereas Spike can just walk straight in.

Even after the events of Lover's Walk Buffy doesn't de-invite Spike. Kind of odd considering he was still dangerous. And look how long the "Crush" de-invite lasted.

I'm sure it was a way for the writers - either consciously or not - to say to us that Spike has more of Buffy's trust. He could have come in any time pre-chip and slaughtered her in her sleep but Buffy obviously doesn't even consider he would, unlike Angel and his weird psychotic drawing people when they sleep fetish, Buffy at least trusts Spike enough to try and kill her in an upfront manner. Now, that's true love :)

The very fact that Buffy's door is always open for Spike is her way of saying that he's a part of her inner-circle of friends without her ever having to actually say it. We know she's not too good with such declarations. Poor dear. :)

From Coquine

I've tried really hard to think of more pre-Spuffy clues, but I think everyone else has mentioned any I could think of.

Just to reply (assuming anyone cares what I think *g*) to some of the other tangents mentioned in the thread, I was really surprised and happy to learn that SMG was a Spuffy shipper.  I'd heard James' and Joss' opinions on the matter before, but this definitely improves my opinion of her.  All I'd ever heard was how much she disliked S6, which could be understandable, but I never knew she wanted Buffy to hook up with Spike in S4.  If only, huh?

As far as the whole Spuffy vs. Bangel thing, I'm probably one of the few Spuffy shippers who respects Buffy and Angel's relationship for what it was: first love.  Now don't get me wrong, I do think that Buffy and Spike's relationship was more honest, real, mature, and yes, loving, but I also feel it's the kind of love that can only happen after one has loved and lost.  Spike loved Drusilla before Buffy.  Buffy loved Angel before Spike.  But in the end, they came to love each other, and both were better for it.  I mean really, how many people in the world actually end up staying with their first love's forever?  Not many that I know of.  Now Riley on the other hand was just a big ball of wrong that had "rebound" written all over it!  And the Immortal, I pretty much choose to ignore as the plot device that he was.  Ugh.

OOH!  I just thought of something.  It's kind of like Buffy's Freudian slip about being "still" in love with Spike, but in S7 when they take the Potentials out hunting, and one of them asks where Spike lived before he had the soul, and Buffy blurts out that his old crypt was "comfy."  I also loved Spike's little double-take after she said it...like, "yeah, I heard you!"  Technically it's post-Spuffy, but still, it gives us some insight about how Buffy really felt.

I love how this discussion about foreshadowing ended up including all the hints in later seasons that she was in love with Spike.  I think there is enough of that to shut up any Bangel with a lick of sense. LOL

I agree with most of what Niamh said about how tired Sarah probably was, and perhaps not thrilled with the way those last seasons went. And no doubt some fans would have been obnoxious to her about Buffy's behavior - like she had any say so about it. LOL

James mentioned (in Sacramento when I asked if he still hung out with the other BtVS people) that they reminded him of an unhappy time in his life and therefore he didn't.  Don't know if that was meant to be show-related or personal. He didn't elaborate and I didn't ask.  

I do think that Sarah may well be - not "too good" in the snotty sense - but a sufficiently successful enough actor that cons are not something she needed to do.  She was the star of her own show, already appearing in movies, engaged to a semi-star.  There really would be little reason for her to do cons - financial or otherwise. And, while she's quite amusing on talk shows and seems to be a lot of fun, she may well be a bit on the shy side and not find that sort of thing (cons) very enjoyable.  As a general rule, I think most actors who do cons are not those who are making enough money at their craft that they can afford to turn them down. James may be the exception to that, at this point, but he does waay fewer than he did initially and it can get very expensive to get any time with him.  He does seem to feel an obligation to the fans who helped put him where he is, but I wouldn't be surprised (if and when he gets something more going for him) to find that he isn't doing them any more.  You just don't see the top actors doing that sort of thing and I can't blame them.  It's a bit of a dog and pony show and probably not much fun for them.

I consider Buffy's "still in love" remark to be the final word on how she felt about Spike.  She was in love with him during season VI and she was still in love with him when he returned with the soul he got for her.  His remark about "no you don't..." pissed me off, but I suppose Joss was setting us up for the fact that he had no way to get them together the following year and needed to set the stage for Spike to be willing to stay away from her.  I think alot of the S/B stuff on AtS was contrived just because they had to work around not having Sarah available to wrap things up.  I doubt he would have let them get together anyway - you know Joss. He doesn't believe in happy endings for romances. LOL

Okay first off I'm sending a vertual slap up side Joss' head. How dunce can one be? Bangel was over once Angelus showed his poofy head. After that happened I was so over them being to gether that it hurt she was all goo goo eyes over Angel when he returned from hell. I was thinking "wtf, why did the PTB bring him back?" And yes, it was stupid if Joss had the who "will they" or "won't they" thing going on. No body (well sane no bodies) wanted them back to gether, maybe that's why he was so pro no Spuffy, he was jonesing for Bangel.

And TGIQ, I head that SMG didn't want to do it beacuse she was filming the grudge and couldn't get away to come back, plus to much drama. Methinks maybe she wanted to get back with Spike but Joss squished the idea. Who knows, but it would be nice if we got at lest a 2 hr movie and he gave us our happy ending. One can dream can't they.

We all knew Buffy was in love with Spike in season 6, and still was in love with Spike in season 7.

I remember reading that Joss directed both of them in "Chosen" to come across loving, all that mushy stuff. And rewatching when Spike dusted *sniff* last night I still hold firm to "no you don't..." as his way of getting Bufyf out. If he he verbally accepted her love and returned it she might have taken longer to get out, and then there would have been no reason for Spike to pop up on Angel,lol.

Also when she and Angel kissed in "Chosen" she did feed him the line that Spike wasn't her boyfriend but he was special. I mean she pushed Angel away for Spike, she sent him back to LA, and spent her final hours with Spike. I think that says a lot as well.

Spike staying away from Buffy in season 5 Angel, he was brain washed by Angel. They didn't show it to us but Angel must have pulled some grand-sire thrall thingy on him.

You don't really want me to rant, do you? 

Or --

You really don't want me to rant. . . . .

But that, I thnk would be another thread. . . .

*I like the way one of the writers put it in an interview of something (I can't remember which one, poss Marta or Martha or whatever). Anyhu, she said that the Spuffy realtionship was real."

Sorry, but absolutely no way in hell was that said by she who shall not be named.  She didn't like the Spuffy relationship, she did everything possible to undermine said relationship and has stated publicly:  "I just can't see Buffy and Spike doing laundry on a Saturday night".  Meaning there's no way they could have a happy, stable, loving relationship.  *snorts*

If anyone said it -- it was Jane Espenson. 

Rant, Nia, Rant! *pokes the flams of ranting*

Spikes_wish.  I agree totally, Spike not going to Buffy was COMPLETELY OOC.  And we all know the only reason that flimsy justification was given was because James Marsters was signed on for all of Season Five of Angel and they had to find a justification to actually keep him on the show.  It was a cheap attempt though and fell completely flat.  You're right, he wouldn't have reacted that way.

But I forgive it because if he HAD gone to Buffy, we wouldn't have seen JM in the rest of season five.  And although I LOVE spuffy...I'd rather get to see Spike onscreen without her than not at all.

JamesMFan, Good points about the disinvite.  And the one time she DID disinvite him, it seemed to be because all her friends were sitting around all expectantly.  I think it's incredibly interesting to know that even after the rape attempt at the end of season six, she didn't have his dis-invited again.  That speaks volumes, considering what had taken place between them.

I always felt that "no you dont' but thanks for saying it" line was Spike's way of getting Buffy to save herself.  I don't really think he didn't think she loved him.  Not after the night in the house and the conversation they had...and yes season five of Angel was completely contrived because of not being able to bring Buffy back into it.  It worked while he was trapped as a ghost and couldn't get to Buffy, but once he could get to her, that's when the believability of the whole thing got shot to  hell.

And Niamh I don't care for Noxen at ALL, so go ahead with your rant...get the rage out lol.

I would definitely not be surprised if she pushed the "attempted rape" plot turn for "Seeing Red"  That whole thing seemed like such a contrived way to turn the fans away from Spike...as if we hadn't watched the show up until that point to know who Spike was.  And he wasn't a rapist.  It was such a BS way to make us all go "shock" "gasp" "I knew he was bad for Buffy."

Again though...as much as Noxen is the freaking beast from revelation...without her retardia spuffy fanfic probably wouldn't exist.  Despite all her attempts to completely undermine Spuffy, SMG and JM seemed to want it enough that no matter what happened in the plot, the truth of the story came through...and the angst and "not quite together" created a LOT of Spuffy fanfic, which is still going strong after the show is over.

Had they allowed Buffy and Spike to get together and to not have all that horribleness...few people would have been compelled enough to "fix it" with fanfic.

 "I just can't see Buffy and Spike doing laundry on a Saturday night". 

Well Ms.She who shall not be named, is right. Buffy and Spike would not be doing laudry on a Saturday night. They would be shagging on the washer, during the spin cycle. ;)

LadyYashka

Oh she had her finger in the pie on Seeing Red -- that was all her --

Gah! 

She admitted, in the past to not watching any of the previous episodes so she didn't give a shit about continuity, didn't worry about characterization and just threw shite together and called it a story line.  Ninety percent of the fiasco that was season 6 can be laid directly at her door -- and any positive Spuffy moments in that season were not written or sanctioned by her.  She bashed the character of Spike to the point of brutality -- and no one stopped her. 

She advocated domestic violence (but hey, who cares? One of the characters involved is a soulless demon, so what we do to them doesn't count).  Excuse me?  Where on earth do you get off promoting something like that when your target audience is teenaged girls?  Are you f*cking brain dead?  You don't advocate anything like that at all. . .  ever.  No matter what the circumstances are.  Whether the two involved are human, fyarl or vampires or freaking muppets -- domestic violence is not something you tacitly approve. 

And please -- can someone point her to some of the fanfic that's on the net that completely and totally blows her narrow-minded, small brain out of the water -- stuff that's knocked her "Spike and Buffy don't do laundry" mindset on its ass. . . .

*grumbles*

 "I always felt that "no you dont' but thanks for saying it" line was Spike's way of getting Buffy to save herself. "

Your right. If you remember at the beging of season 6 Spike told Buffy "Every night I saved you." In Chosen, he got to save her in reality instead of his dreams.

As for Ats season 5, I'll just pretend that Spike called Buffy when he went to take that boat to Europe and she got him to stay and act as her spy. =)

 "I just can't see Buffy and Spike doing laundry on a Saturday night". 

Well Ms.She who shall not be named, is right. Buffy and Spike would not be doing laudry on a Saturday night. They would be shagging on the washer, during the spin cycle. ;)

Not during spin -- during agitation cycle. . . . . *snickers*

And hey, who says you have to do laundry on Saturday night any way?

 " He was way way too fickle and self absorbed.  Human or demon he's not good dating material."

Well dear old Liam was a drunk womanizing bastard. Also if you think back to the VampWillow episode, Angel nearly slipped and spilled the beans on vampires. He nearly told them that the type of person you were before being turned did influence the vampire you became.

Niamh, let me just say...I LOVE you in rant-mode lmao!  You go!  Yes I totally agree with all that.  Spike and Buffy were involved in a relationship of domestic abuse...and Buffy was the abuser.  She abused Spike emotionally, physically and sexually and no matter what he was, her treatment of him was horrific and not the behavior of a hero. No matter WHAT the reason.  I don't care if she got pulled out of heaven.  

Spike proved himself to be more man than monster, sadly Buffy couldn't manage it.  I don't understand why Noxen was SO against the Spuffy thing? Do you have any idea why? I mean it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Her not having watched previous episodes says a lot.  It explains a lot also about what happened with that season. What I don't understand is why Joss would leave her in charge if she didn't know the show.  I mean I understand he was all caught up with Angel and far more interested in Firefly...still Buffy was his creation too.  Shouldn't he care that someone was destroying beloved characters like that?  What she did to Buffy's character was NOT Buffy.  And I think most of us who Write Spuffy to "fix Buffy" understand that.  

We DO like Buffy.  We don't like season 6 Buffy.  

Why did Noxen have such an ax to grind with the Spuffy relationship?  And how did Spike and Buffy get back on Track in season seven? Was Noxen still running things?  Or was someone else in charge that got it back on track?  Because season 7 was VERY different in every way.

I'm glad I'm not the only one looked at "no, you don't" as his way of saving her.

Why would Joss do that? Season 6 I totally hated because of the way Buffy treated Spike, and how he let her, even though he knew he could fight her back. Spike isn't like that. And as far as rape goes. What about when she jumped him in the house, he didn't ask for it. Yeah he went along with it, it was a fantasy come true, but still. She took advantage of Spike. Even after the scoobies knew the truth they still held Buffy up. Never called her on her wrongs, but they were all hell bent when they found out Spike tried to rape her. Even turned Dawn against him, which I'm sure Xander was thrilled about.

I mean if Joss was so wrapped up in his other shows he should have put someon in charge who was with Buffy from the begining. It reminds me of how the last two seasons of X-Files sucked cause they removed Mulder and basically Scully and tried to make us accept something else. It sold the fans short.

Thank you Niamh! Rant all you like! I hated that episode!(just like everyone else) It was a cheap attempt to try and say "Look! Spike's evil. He nearly raped her!" If he was so evil then why did he look so horrified afterwards? Why did Buffy take Dawn to his place the next day so that he could look after her?(I think it was the next day) It was like they(she) wanted everyone to forget all of the good Spike had done before this episode. Though they liked to completely forget all of the crappy things that the humans did. (Hyena possesion, Evil Witchy Willow, Ripper) And if Angel is a different person without his soul, then Spike is too. O.k so I don't believe that last part but they seemed to shove that in our faces so I thought I'd use it for Spike's advantage.

" Even turned Dawn against him, which I'm sure Xander was thrilled about."

Xander was probally thrilled. Stupid prick. He only told her out of spite and that was wrong on many levels. He was always "kill Spike", "He's evil", but when Anya killed those frat boys he was all "No! Don't kill her!" ::grumbles::

Dawn's anger I understand. Somebody hurts any of my sisters, I want their heads on a platter. (even if it's in my imagination) Dawn, in my opinion, was probally torn and she lashed out at Spike. I really do not see Buffy giving her all of the dirty details, so she probally was not sure how to feel about him.

Re possible reasons for Noxen's being just a hardass about Spike - I recently saw a couple of publicity photos from what appeared to be season IV or V (it's possible it was an early season VI, but I think he had the black nailpolish on) in which James (dressed as Spike) is sitting on a couch or something and clustered behind him are three women, one of which is Marni. In both shots, she has her hands on him very possessively. I think they might holding hands in one of them and in the other she's just touching him with both hands while the other two (forget who - not Sarah) are just leaning in and smiling for the camera. My immdiate response was "Whoa! The plot thickens..."  I've also heard that she took every opportunity she could to get him naked during season VI - that all the sex was her idea (although, not the relationship).  I'm thinking that possibly she had the hots for James and either never got lucky, or it didn't last and she was taking it out on him. Which might fit in with how used and abused he felt about his last few seasons on the show. (I don't think he was too thrilled with AtS either, but he said that was one specific person - one of the writers/directors, I think.)  Never occurred to me until I saw those photos, although I do remember reading somewhere that the crew used to laugh about how often she got him naked - somebody even wrote a very funny satire story based on that idea some time ago in which everybody leaves the set and she's still running around insisting they have to re-shoot a particular scene.

This is one of the publicity photos that slaymesoftly was referring to. If clicking on the link doesn't work, copy and paste it to your browser.

Yeah, I save publicity shots. I'm a geek. It's James. 

Shut up.

We say that Marti hated  Spuffy, but really did the shebitch like any of the characters??  She pretty much ripped them all to shreds.  She had a chance to build so much in season 6 but instead pretty much made me hate every character but Spike.

is it just me... or does anyone else think that noxen is tryna block Michelle in that picture?

Never quite looked at it from the *Marti wants James* slant, but if he turned her down -- and he would have, then it sort of fits.  And she very much looks like she's trying to push MT out of the pic (and I've got that one saved also Tam -- great minds think alike). 

However, I do remember hearing Marti said season 6 was about trying to work out relationship issues. . . . and I'm thinking those issues weren't Spike and Buffy's issues, but hers.  Transference from real life?  Hhhhhhhmmmm?

Noxious got control because Joss needed an "adult".  Apparently the male writers were very much like the trioka -- always sort of squabbling and getting off on tangents, while Martial apparently cracked the whip and made them focus.  Okay, whatever.  Since it was basically her first job and she didn't have any theater/television management background, he should have hired someone else and maybe allowed them to handle things.  Instead, like any ADD adult, he wandered off and stopped paying attention.

I'm just glad that SMG put a squash on the proposed Buffy/Xander arc that Joss and/or Marti proposed at the end of season 6/start of season 7.

And believe me, this is not me in rant mode. . . not yet anyway

And, for the record, I don't hate season 6.  In fact, some of my favorite episodes are in 6 -- however, I disapprove of the over-all message of season 6 -- which despite them saying it was how real life can be just as scary as fantasy world -- the message was it's okay to beat on your domestic partner if he's (or she's -- since Xander was guilty of verbal abuse) not the same social status as you are.

Joss also said that season six was about falling in love with the right person at the wrong time. . . .

Honestly?  the only thing I liked about season six was Spike's character development,  the rest just wasn't... wasn't it.  If Season seven hadn't been the last season I would have prolly just given up on it.  Which in a way is great because I mostly liked season 7

I heard a little bit of Niamh in rant mode at Writercon LMAO

I want more lol *pokes Nia wif a stick* rant rant lol

OMG there was gonna be buffy/xander. ewwww ewww ewww.

And that publicity photo is just creepy as hell.  And not to go totally projecting stuff, but in some very real sense, the way buffy treated spike in season six is how marti was treating james.  I mean hello?  I think it's pretty damned abusive to continue to get an actor naked with nothing but a sock for your own personal amusement.  I don't see a lot of respect in the way that was handled.  It's humiliating and it's wrong...and yes I have no doubt he turned her down.

Damn what a bitch.  Well now I have somewhere else to redirect all that buffy season 6 anger.  I'm just saying Buffy was posessed by the Noxen beast.

Also I am curious about who came up with the "spike get's his soul for buffy" angle?  Because it really seemed like that was the turning point to try to get out of the crap of S6 in the spuffy relationship and get us to S7.  Again, was someone else in charge of season 7?  Did Joss make some kind of executive decision regarding the soul?  Because it seems like once the soul thing started to happen, everything took a turn and it wasn't Martian's merry-go-round of torture anymore. God what a bitch.

Re Noxen : What are we rweally expecting from the woman who turned Willow into a magic junkie and helped kill off Tara? A relationship full of hugs and puppies? Unlikely. Because of the way she portrayed their relationship in s6 I'm gonna hafta disagree with GoldenBuffy-

"Buffy loved Spike in s6." I don't buy it. Post Dead Things it was obvious she didnt, at least to me. If anything it seemed like she didn't feel worthy to love him- when she was beating the crap outta him outside the police station it was obvious she was talking about herself, not Spike.

But the bathroom scene was completely OOC for Spike. In fact, everything post OMWF as completely OOC where Spike is concerned-  unsurprisingly, that's where Noxon came into this whole stupid mess. I mean, from sobbing over her return to telling her she came back wrong and eventually trying to rape her? talk about a 180.

 [quoted]Did Joss make some kind of executive decision regarding the soul? Because it seems like once the soul thing started to happen, everything took a turn and it wasn't Martian's merry-go-round of torture anymore.[/quoted]

I heard/read somewhere that Joss decided he was sick of it being miserable, and making the characters being miserable, just before the end of s6. The soul thing came out of that, I'm pretty certain.

yeah i don't see that whole "you came back wrong" and the fighting stuff.  It DID seem OOC after he did everything to save Dawn, and got tortured for Buffy.  He would have never tried to hurt her like that.  I mean I guess him impulsively hitting her back and then finding out the chip didn't work on her anymore...still I just really don't see a lot of that that happened.  When I watched that scene I really had to suspend my disbelief.  

I mean I could see them fighting a bit since he could.  I don't see him saying those things to her, and I don't see him taking it as far as he did on the violence front.  Picking her up by the scruff of her shirt and throwing her against the wall for one thing seemed very "off"   I would have thought they might fight some, but neither's heart would really be in it.  That's how I would envision a physical fight between them happening at that point.

AND now that you mention it...yeah...I mean i CAN see Willow going dark after all her botched spells and such...but at the same time...yeah.  And killing off Tara WTF?  And of course Xander left Anya at the altar God I so freaking dislike the Noxen Bitch.  

Now i understand why so many Buffy fans consider her like the anti-buffy. (spin on antichrist in case you missed it lol.)  At any rate...What happened with Season Seven.  Willow wasn't insane, Xander was trying to get back with Anya, Buffy was nice to Spike, etc.  Was someone else in charge for season 7 or did Joss put some kind of electronic zapping leash on Marti?  

And in "dead things" I agree that buffy was talking about herself.

And yes the bathroom scene was COMPLETELY OOC really for both Spike AND Buffy.  Not only did I hate them trying to turn Spike into the kind of monster that would do that.  I hated them trying to turn Buffy into a victim.  That wasn't Buffy.  Yeah she got injured, but I don't buy that she was injured enough that she couldn't fight off spike, or that she would have cried and begged like that.  As Spike had pointed out to her when he first fought her... "You don't strike me as the begging kind."

And despite the fact that no had meant "yes" all season, I REALLY don't believe that THAT spike, at THAT time would ever have ignored Buffy's cries for any reason.  He's not that dumb.  He would have understood that her crying like that and begging him was completely different from what had gone on between them before, and he never would have done it.

 Yep  - that was one of the pics I was talking about (go Tam!)  

Hey, Zoe, I believe Joss was in charge during season VII (which is why Season IV of Angel sucked immensely). He did all the interviews about the show - what was going tohappen, etc. (He never said - kept answering the question about how it was going to end by saying Buffy's head would explode like a pumkin.)  He wanted to be the one to wrap up the show.  According to (brain fart - the writer who is so entertaining and does so many cons - crap! It'll come to me eventually. David somebody?), while they deliberately left Spike's reason for taking off at the end of S.VI ambiguous, the intent was always there for him to get his soul back. So, someone (Joss?) was already planning ahead to the last leason by that point. He (the writer guy) had a funny argument with a woman in Sacramento. She kept insisting that Spike left to get the chip out and she wouldn't give it up even after he repeated several times that Spike was leaving to get his soul.  He finally yelled at her, "I wrote the damn thing!"or words to that effect.  It was funny. 

Anyway, the point of all that is that they were looking ahead to that last season at least by the last third of s.VI.

And a proposed Buffy/Xander?  Ewwwww! No way.  I would have stopped watching - I swear.LOL

David Greenwalt?  And my god Angel season 4 DID suck.  Everything falls apart when Joss leaves.  

Yeah I had heard that the soul thing was supposed to be a mislead where we were supposed to think he was going to get the chip out or something...but that the intent was always that he was going to get his soul...and it DOES make sense, all that calling her a bitch, well that's what he does when he's hurting...It would make sense that he would decide that he was going to make her see that he could be better rather than get the chip out to prove he was what she always thought. (after all, he could have hurt HER with the chip.  It wouldn't make sense that he'd need a chip removal to bag his third slayer.)

hahahahaha @ "I wrote the damn thing!"  That woman is a moron.  Like I said, there's really no reason for spike to get the chip removed if he wants to "give the bitch what she deserves" if it was violence, he could already do that WITH the chip.

heh I would have stopped watching if there was a Bander also. EWWW that is all kinds of wrong.  I mean I know there was a point where Joss was like "no more vampire relationships for Buffy." I'm of the opinion that RILEY was the biggest mistake and there should be no more human relationships for Buffy.

I've always thought, with her superhuman powers, she needs a guy she won't break. 

patti, do you know where I can find more creepy noxen stalker pics?

she needs a guy she won't break.    I've always felt so.  And, especially after we find out that the source of the Slayer's power is a demon - it just makes sense.

It wasn't David Greenwalt - Fury! David Fury. That's it!  *pats aging brain for coming through*  He's great to listen to and very open and friendly with everybody.  He's the guy singing about his mustardless shirt in OMWF.

The pics I saw were posted on LJ by someone, but I don't remember who or for what community.  Probably for Martsters Daily or James Daily.

she needs a guy she won't break.    I've always felt so.  And, especially after we find out that the source of the Slayer's power is a demon - it just makes sense.

It wasn't David Greenwalt - Fury! David Fury. That's it!  *pats aging brain for coming through*  He's great to listen to and very open and friendly with everybody.  He's the guy singing about his mustardless shirt in OMWF.

The pics I saw were posted on LJ by someone, but I don't remember who or for what community.  Probably for Martsters Daily or James Daily.

Mixed signals from her all season would have led him to a state of confusion in any situation.  However, the Spike we all know and love wouldn't try to rape her. 

Season 2 Spike wouldn't have done it (oh he would've tried to get in her knickers all right).  Season 6 Spike never would have done it.  I honestly don't think he would have gone thru with it anyway.  He stopped himself -- nothing she said or did stopped him.  He was trying to get her to listen -- and it just escalated to a point that it probably shouldn't have ever reached.  She wasn't really fighting him off and probably, like in the past, maybe the only way he could get her to stay and listen to him was when they were having sex. 

Although you have to remember -- everything he learned about a real relationship he learned from and with Drusilla, so already he's screwed.

I can very well understand why JM doesn't really want to associate with some of the cast/writers from the shows.  He wasn't always treated all that well, and many of them viewed Spike as a joke.  And JM never struck me as someone who would appreciate that, considering the amount of time -- and himself -- he let show in that character.  Most of the writers didn't like the character, and really only Jane and Rebecca Rand Kirschner actively liked the character of Spike.  It's a shame, because he was far and away the most three dimensional character around.

Noxious got delegated to second fiddle again when the networks dumped Firefly and then Joss suddenly had not too much on his plate -- he must have known, too, there were unhappy rumblings on the set about what was being done in season 6.  Both JM and SMG appealed to him to have the Seeing Red episode rewritten more than once -- and I'm sure neither of them was truly happy with DT or Smashed or Wrecked. 

And her sililoquy in DT?  Was definitely about herself, just as his in Fool For Love was about him -- it always is.  It's a standard literary device for the character to expound on their own feelings/questions to an audience of one (usually oneself or the audience only) but see, Buffy and Spike were yin and yang, two halves of a whole, so when one spoke and the other was onscreen and it was only the two of them -- they were expressing their feelings.  What Buffy was really asking was how a soulless thing could love another. . .  but she already knew that answer.

And I do believe she loved him in season 6, she was just completely incapable of expressing it or allowing herself to be loveable.  Or to feel anything at all.  She didn't want to be there.  She wanted to be dead -- she wanted nothing more to lay down her burdens and rest in peace. . . .

I'll even go you one better and say that Buffy started to fall in love with Spike at the end of season 5 -- because she never would have trusted him with Dawn if she didn't feel something --- she never trusted Riley or Angel like that.  And her bullshit in season 6 was just that.  She knew it and he knew it -- which is why he continuously called her on it.  Buffy loved Spike -- she was just afraid to admit it.  Afraid of Giles, and Xander, and hell, even Willow and all their possible reactions.  She wasn't however, afraid of Tara's -- and strangely enough that says a lot about Tara.  Although I still think they should have let the cut lines when Buffy goes to Tara and asks her why she lets Spike do those things to her. . . and Tara's wonderful nonjudgmental response.

Marti allowed Xander to become an abusing bigot, who took out his inadequacies on his obviously smarter partner.  She allowed Giles to run scared (and yeah ASH wanted to go home, but still, cameos anyone?), and she allowed Buffy to physically abuse Spike. 

Frankly, I'd love an hour with her, to tell her what I really think of her.

And Tam, I'd so let you watch. . . .

LOL oh, we'd all watch, Nia!

And, yes, I never saw Spike's "attack" on Buffy as an attempt at rape - not in the usualy "all about the power, not the sex". It was an act of desperation by a very drunk and heartbroken man (with a bit of guilt for being caught with Anya) who had learned that he could always reach her physically, if not emotionally. The line "I know you feel it when I'm in you..." was all it took to give me his motivation.  And I never believed she couldn't fight him off - I think she was hurt that she might have to.  She never expected that level of violence from him.  I think at the first tear, the first "don't, I'm hurt" he would have backed off immediately and turned into caring Spike.    I guess they were thinking they needed something truly awful to drive him to get the soul, but I think they over-did it.

And, yeah - any people from the show who didn't like James' being there or didn't care for Spike, had their heads up their asses. All of Joss's characters have layers and are multidimensional, but Spike was far and away the most nuanced. And the one who changed and grew throughout the entire show. In many ways, even though he wasn't considered a "major" character, he made the show what it was. *growls at stupid people*

Patti,

I agree with all of that about the seeing red bathroom scene.  And I agree that it took something major to get him to seek his soul, but I always come back to the thought that it was completely OOC and the only reason it was done, was to make people dislike the Spike character.  But nobody bought it.  I saw one of those interviews where some of the writers could not believe that we all still liked Spike after THAT.  Like shouldn't all his throngs of adoring female fans go "oh god! Rapist! we hate you!" 

But of course we had actually watched the entire season and none of us were buying that that was what Spike truly was.  And yes I agree, the real actual Spike, would have stopped the second she said she was hurt, drunk and desperate or not.  

Niamh,

It seems Spike, both on camera and off was treated as a Joke...and I can totally understand why JM wouldn't want to associate with most of those people.  I've seen a lot of his interviews...and the reason Spike was more than some silly villain, was because of how much JM put himself out there.  A lot of the people in charge of the show may have thought he was a joke, but the devotion of the fans says a lot.  And really, when it comes to art of any sort, the fans are all that matters.  Many of the writers on that show did the fans a huge disservice. 

Heh...I saw Jane Espensen in some interviews, she got a bit of a twinkle in her eye when she talked about Spike lol. I'm thinking she was at least a tiny bit fangirl over Spike.  

Spike really was the most multi-dimensional and compelling character on that show.  

And I do have to agree that despite all the badness, Buffy did love Spike.  She even admitted in that season seven ep that she wasn't STILL in love with him.  And the only time she'd had to be in love with him was in season six.  She was in love with him.  She was terrified of it and she felt wrong and unworthy and unlovable and she took it out on him.  I think she was angry at him because she loved him.  I have no idea how it was his fault...but anyway.

I think she also loved him a little bit or was starting to fall at the end of season five.  There was definitely a strong bond forming.  From "intervention" on, when I think she understood that Spike loved her and her sister, there was a complete 180 in the way she treated him.  And she asked for his help when they ran.  And told her friends basically to F off when they tried to argue with her about bringing him in the RV.  

So yeah...barring the angst of coming back from the dead and the noxen beast, there would have been spuffy loving in season six.

I agree patti.  I mean without Spike, I still would have liked the show (I liked seasons one and three) but I didn't become an obsessive psycho fangirl until Spike.  Without Spike, it would have been a good show that I thought was cute and enjoyed, but I never would have had to own every season.  I wouldn't have read or written fanfic, and I wouldn't still be talking about it.  It would have been a passing amusement like "friends" or "alias"

Spike is what made it an obsession.

Well, all of the writers have insisted over and over that nothing got put on the air with any of his shows that wasn't run by him and approved. The day-to-day minutiae was run by others, but Joss was still very involved in what happened to the shows...and often did last-minute changes/additions to the scripts on a lot of episodes. There are a lot of scenes that were actually Joss, but weren't credited to him because he wasn't the assigned writer to that episode.

Oh, yeah, Jane definitely loved Spike. Actually, she loved all the characters she wrote for...it really showed in her face and her voice when she was talking about it at the QM con.

James admitted once that the bathroom scene was something that Marti had had happen in her life...and it sounded like she was the Spike role....obviously, details probably weren't a carbon copy, but the inspiration was there. And she was the primary reason he was practically naked all the time when it wasn't necessary, though Joss let it happen, too. The crew and SMG made fun of JM a lot when he was in the sock, acting pretty immature, and no upper brass ever put a stop to it, hence James getting self-conscious about being shirtless on screen by the end of that season. He even stopped working out over that summer hoping they'd make him do it less in Season 7.

But ultimately, if you don't like how Buffy acted in any season, blame Joss. He was still very much in charge.

Caro Mio

And I also agree that he never intended to rape her...never intended hurt, either....if she had just said "Fine, Spike, you have two minutes to speak your peace...", we would have had a pleading, but still rational Spike making his case. Or, if Buffy had said, "Can it wait until after my bath? I'll listen to you then, but I just really need a soak right now." That would have worked, too. Any bit of equal treatment would have soothed the boy and not had him trying to convince her in the only way he knew to tear down her walls anymore. The only casualty of that scene was her robe, so Buffy didn't get hurt at all.....and no monster would have had that look on his face, or run out the door horrified if he was truly a monster. And Left His Duster! That was huge!

Just recently at the QM con, David Fury said they couldn't allow Buffy to have a good relationship with Spike, to show that Spike was good enough without the soul, because it would undermine all they had said since the beginning about what makes Angel worthy, his story, etc. If Spike could achieve all the goodness, etc, without a soul, then what did that say about Angel and his choices while having a soul? I kid you not, folks...

If there had never been a souled Angel in a relationship with Buffy, then we would have had very different Spuffy. Why they couldn't just think of them as individual vampires on their own, albeit similar paths, I'll never know...And yeah, Spike would have showed up Angel that way, but he always did, anyway, so the real change just would have been in the amount of respect given. And I love Angel despite his faults, so it never had to be one vampire vs. another in my mind even with my adoration of Spike.

It's like how you think of your kids - you love them equally, but they're different, they're individuals. That's how I think the two vampires should have been addressed in the 'verse.

Caro Mio, 

Very good points.  Also, poor JM.  I'm angry at anyone who stops him from working out lol.  It seems that uncomfortable scenes, like sex scenes were much more respectful early on in the show.  I got the impression that the Bangel sex was very respectful (Joss was too shy about it to even ask Sarah and DB to make sex noises.)  and I have no real reason to assume the the Briley sex wasn't.

It takes a lot to be able to do something like that (get naked or so close to it as to not matter that you aren't) in front of other people for a purpose like that.  And quite honestly, what happened, if it isn't actually a crime it should be.  Isn't that some kind of workplace sexual harassment?

I mean hey...I really liked seeing Spike practically naked all those times.  It was nice, and it was yummy.  But I don't think it was the nudity that was the issue, it was the lack of respect and support from cast, crew and writers.  Had they been respectful about it, it wouldn't have been an issue.

In season five of Angel they also got him naked.  In that episode "Hellbound"  What is it with them and getting James naked?

OMFG I can't believe they actually admitted that about the soul issue.  I mean we all suspected I think, but Jeez to come out and say it?

and HELLO THEY wrote spike as a sympathetic character.  If they didn't want us sympathizing, they should have kept him evil.  They act like they were freaking possessed and then at the 11th hour had to find a way to break the spell and fix it.  THEY wrote all of it.  Then they're trying to backpedal it.

Spike was always different than Angel.  Always.  I honestly don't understand writers not taking responsibility for their previous story choices and then getting upset with viewers for accepting previous story choices.  Hello! WE didn't write it...you schmucks did.  GAH!

We all already knew Spike was good enough without the soul, because it was how he was written.  We also knew the soul didn't do that much to make Buffy worthy of him...again, because of the way she was written.

I don't think SMG made fun of him for being naked on-set.  He more than once said Sarah made things a lot easier for him with regard to that.  If there was banter between the two of them, I think it was on both sides and more like teasing.   However, I do think there was an awful lot of oogling going on with other people.

As for keeping Spike naked -- if you had a choice between Spike and . . well any of the other male characters, wouldn't you keep him rather than say. . . Xander or um.  . . . any of them?

Nope Wulfe prefers nekkid Faith :P

yeah niamh that didn't ring true for me either...those two seemed to be good friends and JM has always had good things to say about SMG so I really don't see her as being part of the mockers.  Unless she was made so uncomfortable by the way he was being treated that she was trying to lighten it up.

And oh yeah...I fully support naked spike, I just think they could have been more respectful about it.

 What is it with them and getting James naked?  Well, if we're honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that James had this horde of drooling fangirls watching the show just to catch a glimpse of him had something to do with it.  I'm sure it was not lost on Joss or anyone else, that naked Spike was a popular visual. LOL

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Spike said Sarah teased him about the sock - tugged on it, etc.  Maybe someday, someone will write a memoir about their time working on the show, and we will have answers to some of these things.  Although, it would probably take memoirs from quite a few people in order for us to get a clear picture. Everyone's story would be colored by their own experiences with the show.  I would think that over the course of six or seven years, there would be changes in how well the actors got along, who resented whom, who got closer and who moved apart.  Most of the positive things I've seen/heard James say about SMG stem from early-on in the show. Not so much from later seasons. He did say that somewhere inside him there was a Spike and Buffy and that was what made it so easy to react appropriately when she died. 

I understand the soul thing, oddly enough.  I don't agree with it - but I understand it.  That is the mythology that Joss had set up from the beginning - that Angel was a souled vampire on the road to redemption and that the soul was the reason it could happen. Even though they somewhat inconsistenly wrote Spike as a vampire who could love and be protective and caring, they couldn't go all the way and allow him to be completely redeemed without trashing their own built-up mythology. And with Angel having his own show that continued his path to redemption, they pretty much needed to stick with their premise.

Hey Zoe, here are the last three pics I have from that Marsters/Trachtenberg/Noxon photo op

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/spikeslovebite/marsterstrachtenbergnoxonunknown-2.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/spikeslovebite/marsterstrachtenbergnoxonunknown-1.jpg

Anyone else get the impression that he's pulling away from her? LOL James is usually very touchy-feely in photo ops. Case in point; one of the few photos of JM and SMG together-

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/spikeslovebite/together001.jpg

Yeah, he's pulling back. . . and that looks to be around the holidays too.

He looks to be very tactile. .. . 

Wulfie?

If I swung that way, I'd be a Faith girl too. . . but I don't, so . . . .

I want nekkid Spike

 "I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Spike said Sarah teased him about the sock - tugged on it, etc. "

And I can only imagine that conversation. . . "c'mon Jimmy, lemme see what's in the sock. .  .please?  C'mon. . . whatcha got in there Jimmy?"

*snickers*

Yep, Tam. I'd say you called it.  He is definitely trying to put some space between them.

Nia, wasn't Jane E at Writercon, or am I losing what little mind I have left?

God if she had been I would have been worshipping at the altar. . . sadly, you are losing your mind. . . .

But hey, so am I.

Hell I would have been CHEWING in teh sock LMAO

Anyone got a newspaper handy to smack teh Pup?

*hands you a paper*

Girl, I would have been. . . .  yeah, chewing at the sock too. . . .

for days. . .

Yeah...JM's consensus for how he saw Sarah was as a little sister who he loved in that way..but could infuriate/annoy the hell out of him. And that she didn't make his near-nude scenes any easier to do with all the mocking and teasing, and with all the crew doing it at the same time. When you see him talk about her in person, it's interesting....on some subjects, he mentions her fondly, and on others, you can tell he's trying to be diplomatic and still say something nice. Cuz James very rarely bashes someone in public, and especially by name. That bit of class is one of the things I really like about him.

Yeah, he's pretty tactile, and even snuggly, as long as people are comfortable with him, too. He's really good at rating the nervousness of a fan and responds acordingly. If he looks like he's actively leaning away, than he most likely is.

From Coquine

I have read and agree with much of what's been discussed about S6 so far, but I have to say I feel that the reason Buffy didn't fight back they way she could/should have is that, despite the lady's protesting, she did trust Spike, and his attack completely blindsided her.  There's not much worse than to be attacked by someone you didn't think would hurt you.

And also, I seem to remember hearing/reading Joss say something about how S6 was supposed to represent the way that sometimes, life can become dark.  And as far as that goes, I have to agree.  Life isn't always hugs and puppies, and even counting having to fight evil and save the world and all that, the buffyverse has always been a lighthearted place, and since the show has always been a metaphor for life, to completely ignore the potential life has for darkness would not be true to the show or the characters.

And truthfully, thinking about S6 like that helps me deal with it as a whole and not, y'know, strangle Noxious slowly in her sleep...

From Coquine

I have read and agree with much of what's been discussed about S6 so far, but I have to say I feel that the reason Buffy didn't fight back they way she could/should have is that, despite the lady's protesting, she did trust Spike, and his attack completely blindsided her.  There's not much worse than to be attacked by someone you didn't think would hurt you.

And also, I seem to remember hearing/reading Joss say something about how S6 was supposed to represent the way that sometimes, life can become dark.  And as far as that goes, I have to agree.  Life isn't always hugs and puppies, and even counting having to fight evil and save the world and all that, the buffyverse has always been a lighthearted place, and since the show has always been a metaphor for life, to completely ignore the potential life has for darkness would not be true to the show or the characters.

And truthfully, thinking about S6 like that helps me deal with it as a whole and not, y'know, strangle Noxious slowly in her sleep...

I looked at the pics....don't think he's pulling away, really....you can see in the last one that someone else was on the couch, too, so that makes for awkward posture when squished on a love seat. Does seem to be the holidays...most likely before any of the angst might have started....A pic at the end of S6 would be much more telling, LOL. James' eyes are expressive enough that they would show he was uncomfortable if he was there, and he's smiling and twinkling.

Tam, yes, those pics are totally creepy, there is almost a Glenn Close "Fatal Attraction" gleam in Noxon's eye there.  EEK.  And yes, I think he's pulling away.  He doesn't look very comfortable, the smile isn't reaching his eyes. ewww ewww ewww.  How fucking creepy.  

Also, yes the pic with him and sarah looks much happier and more relaxed.  

Also, I DO think it's like Marti didn't want MT in the shot.

Sometimes a picture speaks a thousand words, and IMO that is blatantly obvious in this cast and crew picture. Don't hold me to it, but I believe that this was taken either at the beginning of season 7 or midway through shooting. Pretty sure it includes everyone who was ever on the show or worked on the show at that time. Without doing the whole 'Where's Waldo' thing, look at where JM and SMG are standing (together) in relation to the other 'main' characters. Maybe it's just me, but I read it as the two of them distancing themselves from the others.

Give me your thoughts on this one, kiddies.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/spikeslovebite/btvscastcrew.jpg

Yes, I think it's pretty telling that they aren't part of the core scoobie snuggle fest on the ground in front.

And look who's standing right behind them . . . our girl Jane.

Talk about mixing real life with work, and it does look like she's trying to push MT out of the way.

And Xander and Buffy... ewww! I just wish Joss did a better job at watching his show than walking off and centering on other things.

 [quote] Post Dead Things it was obvious she didnt, at least to me. If anything it seemed like she didn't feel worthy to love him- when she was beating the crap outta him outside the police station it was obvious she was talking about herself, not Spike.[/quote]

I still think she loved him,lol, in her own twisted logic.  Maybe she did feel unworthy of his love, but she still took it and used it, and twisted it for her desires at the time. I just find it hard to swallow that you hate someone that much yet you can use them the way she did. Maybe that's my narrow minded self speaking, I just don't buy it. Yeah, it was. I think Buffy felt she didn't deserve anyone's love, not even an evil soulless demon, and she took everything out on him. (did i make sense?)

I can't believe some of the writers didn't want JM there. What the hell was their problem? He's a wonderful actor and I think he did justic to Spike. Yes, I think they could have given him more face time an dinvolved him more, but I guess since they didn't want him there they did what little needed to be done. (I can't think my kids are driving me crazy) *runs from room in tears!*

"And oh yeah...I fully support naked spike, I just think they could have been more respectful about it."

Yup, I'm in total support of a naked but HAPPY Spike! She should have shown him respect on the set at least. Yes! I would have kept Spike naked on the set too! I mean, naked Xander, ummm... ewww. And if they had JM in a sock what was SMG in? And a sock, a sock. Ok, don't get me started, bad brain! But a sock. I thought about it and shame on those who did the oogling, but who wouldn't have got their look on, at least once? No, maybe not?

Personally I think the attempted rape scene was a pretty good scene. I mean, I don't like that it happened, but it just shows that everyone has a breaking point.

Look at how the relationship with Spike and Buffy was played out from the moment they started sleeping with each other. Their very first time was in the middle of a knock-down drag out fight and was initiated by Buffy. Then afterwards she was all pious and "youre disgusting, dont touch me and this will NEVER happen again" and ran off only to keep going back repeatedly. He would try to initiate and she would be a total bitch and tell him how unworthy he was only to turn around and jump his bones and then run off once more.

Its understandable, the way the attempted rape came about. She was NOTHING but mixed signals when no meant yes and yes meant no...always on her terms. Rape is all about power and control and the taking of someone else's is because you don't feel you have any of your own. Its not about sex at all...sex is the weapon thats used, thats all. With Spike, what happened in the bathroom, that wasn't anything about power or control. It was about desperation, pure and simple. He was deperate to get back in her good graces and the only way to do that was through the only way she had ever allowed...through sex. It was about anguish and trying to lessen the misery and the guilt he felt with the whole 'wounded' crap she pulled on him for sleeping with Anya.

(Side rant...did that piss anyone else off? Xander leaves Anya at the altar because his chickenshit ass didnt have the balls to come forward BEFORE the wedding and say "Hey I have doubts" and Buffy being the fickle bitch that she is acting all hurt and wounded cause the guy she treated like DIRT with the whole "youre beneath me - you're not a man, youre an evil disgusting thing - and if you ever tell anyone about this I will KILL you" before dumping him found a bit of comfort in someone else's arms - GAH! Did that piss anyone else off? Even now, I feel myself getting all worked up and wanting to punch both her and Xander in the face with a glove filled with a 2x4).

Anyway, after a year of the whole back and forth thing between them, the scene in the bathroom was pretty much dead on. Knowing Spike and the extremes he goes to in his emotions, it was pretty much right in character for him...just as in the way he realized what he did/was doing before it hit the point of no return. Spike is an all or nothing kind of guy. He either loves you or he doesn't...there's no in between. If he doesn't then your loss and if he does, then you will never ever have to wonder if he does because he is up front and honest and wears his heart on his sleeve and there is not a damn thing he wouldnt do for the ones he loves. Case in point, he kept the promise he made to Buffy in protecting Dawn, even after Buffy died.

After years of abuse at the hands of not only her, but the Scoobies as well, he stuck around and he helped out and he patrolled and he watched over Dawn all because he loved Buffy enough to keep his promise and loved Dawn enough to want to keep her safe. He wasn't thanked or given any credit for what he did at all by anyone and was pretty much used because none of them had the time or inclination or the desire to do it all themselves all the time, and when Buffy was brought back, the Scoobies went right back to being asses because they didn't need him anymore and Oh God, this is turning into a rant so let me shut up right now.

Rant away -- this is what the space is for.

So far you haven't said anything that I don't agree with.

Yup, you're right Tam, but you already knew that, lol. It looks like both SMG and JM are standing off from everyone else. Their all making with the snuggle fest and they are in the back, away.

Hell yeah Space...I think I speak for everyone when I say that airing our long repressed opinions is what this forum is for? It should be a place where we can all agree, disagree, and straddle the fence like the adults we all are. IMO this is far better than a chat room or LJ and I'm quickly becoming addicted LOL

I lurve forums . . . . where people can say just about whatever and rant and. . . weeeellll

say what's on their minds

Space,

I pretty much agree with the gist of what you're saying...however, I still believe on the show in "Seeing Red" it was an attempted rape. And here is why.  Rape may generally be about violence and power more than sex. (and I say MORE than sex, because sex has to be a part of it because the guy has to be turned on to rape someone. You can't rape someone limp.)

And Rape may have a lot to do with those intentions.  However, an action is an action and the repercussions of it are the same no matter what your intentions.  Had he continued through and succeeded, and Buffy had truly not wanted him to...he would have raped her.  She would have experienced a rape.

He stopped, he didn't go that far, but had it not stopped and all conditions remained the same, it would have been rape, the incompletion of rape is an attempted rape.  It is what it is.

Do I think Spike had the intent to force himself on her? absolutely not.  Do I agree with you that when you are playing games where "no means yes" and you don't have a safeword or anything then how the hell is he supposed to know if he's at that desperation point? Absolutely.  However it was still an attempted rape.  

Rape and the attempt to rape, no matter the intentions and the thoughts running through the perpetrator...still is what it is.  The action is still the action.  I'm sure had he succeeded and Buffy hadn't been able to push him off her then Buffy wouldn't have been comforted because he had good intentions.  She still would have been violated and would be a rape victim.

And yes...Spike stopped, and I believe he would have probably stopped anyway...however Buffy kicked him off her.  He realized then what he was doing, but it wasn't her pleas and cries that made him stop, it was her foot sending him flying across the bathroom.  She stopped him.  As much as we like Spike and understand the character's feelings and motivations behind that moment, it was still her that stopped him.

In that big cast picture, SMG and JM are holding  the clipboard thingy...the thing they snap when they say "action" and "cut". I see them centered there with a slight distance around the two as positioning them as the stars of the show. As far as I know, that was in Season 7, which can't be denied as a seriously Spuffy season. It was all about Spike and Buffy's relationship, so yeah, they should have the center as stars. They're the focal point. His arm is around her back, too. Typical CA day in Spring - everybody has to squint because it's so freakin' bright!!!

Yup, that's what I was gonna say.  I don't see James and Sara holding themselves away, so much as I see the actual stars of Season VII being given pride of place in the photo.  By the end of the season, these were our two heroes.

Also, Tam? I think Jane was at the first WC.

hahaha patti come ON, let us have our conspiracy theories! hehe.  it's no fun when you're being all rational.

yeah Patti I found out Jane was at the con in Vegas

OK,  for those that don't know one of my things is collecting pics and most folks I share with know I have a thing for Buffy the vamp Slayer :P  That being said most of the casual relaxed photos I have seen of James from season 5-7 usualy have him with Sara or Michelle and Sara with James or Michele, and the same with Michelle, it always made me wonder if that was sort of their clique and perhaps the reason Spike was treated so badly had to do with jelousy??

Of course Michelle and Sara were the two most succseful actors and James might have been the only one that wasn't 'catty' with them as well.

Space - your argument sounds good, but I don't think it holds water.

The first time Spike has a conversation with Buffy (when he isn't trying to kill her) is when he waits for her outside the cemetery to tell her what Angel's been up to - kidnapping her Watcher.  Buffy, naturally, thinks he's out to get her, so she punches him a few times.   Spike takes several punches from her while he's trying to explain, before finally whacking her a good one to get her attention.   He doesn't have a chip and he could certainly mix it up with her, if he wanted.

After he gets the chip, Buffy punches him in the nose whenever she wants something out of him.  Sometimes, she punches him in the nose after she's already gotten what she wants.  Bad Buffy.

Throughout Season Six, Buffy beats up Spike, abuses him and generally makes him miserable, which is entirely out of character for her.  Spike puts up with it and prefers getting abused to having her leave him, as she eventually does.

Before he tries to rape her in Seeing, he kisses her first.  He has a bad temper, it's true, but hurt his darling?  I don't think so.

As to Nekkid Spike, Thanks JM for suffering for your art.

It wasn't the first foreshadowing but in Superstar (S4), Spike encounters Jonathan and "Betty" outside his crypt and he caresses a lock of her hair as he taunts her (she doesn't object in the least either)...the UST was intentional.

Pfeifferpak (kathleen)

Yup, he did try to kiss her. I felt for him so much.

This topic looks to be a bit old, but I thought I'd put my two cents in anyway.

As for "Seeing Red," I agree that rape is about feeling powerless and trying to take the power away from someone else.  That's exactly what Spike does. 

Buffy had the the upper hand during the entire relationship.  She was the one with the power.  Buffy went to Spike when she wanted him and left Spike after she got what she wanted.  The only time that Buffy gave up the tiniest bit of control was when she and Spike had sex, whether through sexual submission or through letting herself feel alive.  Spike suffers yet another rejection, and knowing that Buffy relinquishes control during sex, he tries to take back the power that Buffy has over him.  As Spike tells her, he knows she feels it (love) when he's inside her.  So, he want to get back in.  I do not believe that he went to Buffy with the intention of raping her.  I don't even believe that he intended to rape her during the act of attempting to rape her, but an attempted rape was the result nonetheless.

As for Spuffy foreshadowing, I think it starts all the way back when first finds out that there are slayers.  He's obsessed with wanting to kill them for 120 years, until he finds one that he's rather shag than kill.  Other foreshadowing events that I can think of:

Spike seeing Buffy for the first when she's dancing in the Bronze. 

The "I'd rather be fighting you" line. 

Drusilla constantly wondering why Spike can't kill Buffy when he's killed two other slayers.  Drusilla tells Spike that he tastes like ashes.  Drusilla sees Buffy as sunshine, and Spike, being a vampire, would turn to ashes in the sunshine. 

Buffy saying that she can fool everyone but Spike.

The UST while Spike's chained up in Giles' bathroom.

Willow's "Will Be Done" spell said "marry," not "love."

Buffy's insistance that no one kill Spike while he's harmless.

Riley definitely feels threatend by Spike's crush on Buffy.  He would feel threatend if he didn't think there was a chance that Buffy would fall for Spike.  Although, Riley was pretty insecure about everything, so maybe he would...

The "If that's what I wanted, I'd be dating Spike" line.

The kiss after Spike is tortured by Glory.  That's a biggee.

Spike tells Buffy that he knows she'll never love him.  Buffy doesn't disagree with him, but she doesn't confirm it either.

The scene after Buffy comes back from the dead where she and Spike are holding hands.  I think that's a biggee, too.

And the piece de resistance: "Why does everybody think I'm still in love with Spike?"  She couldn't still be in love with Spike if she wasn't ever in love with Spike.

You put it in words that just wouldn't come to me,lol. I always felt he never planned on carrying out raping her, only wanting her to feel and listen to him. To give him back that crumb she let him nibble on.

As for Riley, OMG, I never thought of that. He was never jealous of Xander, who I'm quit sure everyone knew was all gaa gaa over Buffy. But Spike, Riley saw something there, knew that once the door was open there was no turning back.

And the in love with Spike, we all know she still was *sigh* ^_^

I never believed the story that Joss put out that they were going to kill Spike, but he was so popular they decided to work him in.  In the scene where Spike is watching Buffy dance, the background song is "you brought me to my knees" and he is clearly lusting after her.  All thru Season 2 he never manages to kill her, but spends a lot of time chatting her up (in a totally evil sort of way, naturally).  So, I think JW planned it right from the beginning. 

Also, there's the three bears theme - Angel, is Papa Bear (too old), Riley is Baby Bear (too young) and Blondie Bear (as Harmony calls Spike), who's just right for Goldilocks.  Spike uses that nickname for her in Season 2 - "Goldilocks, you have bleeding tragic taste in men, etc."

Rant on, tag.

Oh - I'd never caught that Goldilocks and the three bears thing - you are so right! Hee! Coincidence or intentional? Only Joss knows and he's not telling. LOL But he certainly is capable of planning that far ahead...

Never caught the three bears thing either. And just like Goldilocks Buffy ran away from Spike,lol.

Not sure if this is one, but in School Hard after Joyce clocks Spike over the head. He could have easily taken out Joyce then Buffy. But instead he ran away. Yeah, one could say he decided to live to fight another day, but I think he never wanted to kill her. Just wanted her as a toy first but then later just wanted her to lover her.

Niamh, the way i heard it was that Nick Brendon wanted his character to have a bigger arc and convinced Sarah to go pitch the Xander/Buffy relationship to Joss.  She agreed because she was still upset about the way Buffy was portrayed in season6.  Joss said no because season7 was all about Spuffy.

It was here-say, so i didn't view the actual article, it does annoy me however.  So did you see the real article?  It would be help to know that Sarah wasn't intrested in taking her character that route.

Thanks

My apologies if I'm repeating what someone else has said, but I couldn't make it through all of the comments.  Anywho, initially, Spike was supposed to have been killed off a couple of eps into s2, but there was such a huge (positive) reaction to him, that Joss decided to keep the character on.  They spoke of Spike as being a "disposable" character, which was why they built him up so much, and proceeded to break him down once they brought him back full time in season four.  All I know is, the first time I saw JM in "School Hard" way back when I was a young girl of 12, he just literally grabbed me and refused to let go.  I knew there was no way in hell that they wouldn't bring him back eventually.  James is just a pleasure to watch.

As for the foreshadowing, well, in "School Hard," when Joyce hit him on the head with the flat side of an axe, I'm sorry, but how much strength did the woman pushing middle age have, exactly?  I'd say next to none if she was attacking a master vamp, such as Spike.  Spike quit, when he didn't have to.  He could've brushed Joyce off, killed Buffy, then went and killed Joyce after that if he wanted to.

LOL at S.I.  It's about perspective, I guess. A woman in her early forties is a/hardly pushing middle age and b/capable of being quite strong if she hasn't been a couch potato all her life.  I'm pretty sure, even at my advanced old age, if my daughter was in danger, any whacks I gave to her attacker would  pretty much  end of the attack.  (As in, he would be very dead). 

Not picking on you - I just couldn't resist laughing at your idea of what constitutes middle age and what effect you think being an adult has on the body.   Would Joyce be capable of being a competitive gymnast at that age? Nah, of course not. She'd have too many injuries to put her body through that.  But could she swing an axe with authority? Yeah, she could and would.  Don't forget, Spike was fighting a Slayer - all Buffy needed to get away was the split second of distraction that her mother's whack gave her. I really don't think Joss was foreshadowing anything there because he didn't know yet that Spike/James was going to be such a hit with the viewers.

I'm going back to my cave now....