What are your thoughts on Angel/Cordelia as a ship. Do you think Angel loved Cordelia or Buffy more?

I love Angel/Cordy. They had a much more real and adult relationship then Buffy/Angel ever did. I don't think that Angel loved either of them more, but because he put Buffy on a pedestal and viewed her as a prize to be won, his love for her seemed forced, like he felt obligated to be 'loyal' to her. Angel and Cordy always seemed to have more respect towards each other. They watched each other change and grow, and they understood each other a lot more then I think Angel and Buffy did.

I had originally liked the whole Angel/Cordelia thing: at the time, I had believed that it was his first adult relationship. But then Angel showed that he was never really over Buffy during their snogfest in Buffy Season 7.

Hours after his Faustian deal with Wolfram & Hart and shipping Cordelia off to their medical facilites, Angel showed his true colors. Not even a phone call between them for over a year and the moment they see each other :BOOM: they are right back to heavy make out sessions.

Both Spike and Cordelia deserved better than that. Spike's fatal flaw was that when he fell in love, he fell hopelessly in love. He may have been willing to forgive and forget just like he always did, but I seriously doubt Cordelia would.

Like afgrulerofthepen mentioned, Angel and Cordy's relationship was far more mature (or so I had thought) than the whole fairy tale star crossed lovers things that Angel and Buffy never seemed to get past.

Angel jumped into Buffy's arms just hours after she fell into her coma, that is a damming blow to any relationship (I understand if it was months or even weeks BUT HOURS!?). Angel proved once and for all that Buffy would always be his number one love, everyone else would just be his alternative choice: second best to the girl he can't have. 

I, like Cordelia probably did, believed that Angel had finally grown up and moved on. But that proved to be false.

Honestly, had she seen that little show between Angel and Buffy, I seriously doubt Cordelia would have been willing to stick around and play second fiddle.

SC

I love the Angel/Cordy dynamic, and I also feel it was a mature and much more real relationship. I don't think Angel's kiss (hardly a heavy make-out session - and Buffy told Spike there were no tongues involved) with Buffy constituted anything by two people who share some feelings being glad to see each other. I would fault more his talk with Buffy in which he implies that he's available if and when she decides what she wants.  THAT to me, is cheating on poor comatose Cordelia.  But, then, Angel isn't necessarily one of my favorite people from time to time. Especially as he relates to Buffy. Liked him on his own show, but having him show up when they were wrapping up Buffy was a bit much. They didn't bring anyone else back for the grand finale.

Okay, I'm replying before reading anyone elses responses so I won't be tainted :P

Angel definitely loved Cordelia more. 

Why?

Well, he knew her.  Again, he knew her.  Angel had Buffy on a pedestal--he didn't really know her at all.  He made sacrifices for Cordelia, and they weren't even together when he made them.  He ate food with her, made food for her, laughed with her.  Laughed.  When did he ever laugh with Buffy?  When was it not ever angst and melodrama with him and Buffy?  Okay, I'm doing a bad job of explaining myself--mostly because my brain is currently a mushy mess right now.  But if you compare his interactions with Buffy to Cordelia, you can see it.  There's an ease there.  He doesn't hide from Cordelia.  Hell, he can't, cause she wouldn't let him.  They would have made a helluva couple, bringing out the best in one another.  Of course, they screwed it to Hell in s4....Man, I feel like writing and/or reading a Cordangel(? Angdelia(?) fic right now...

ETA: Um...pre Cordelia's comatose state, she was doing it with Angel's son.  And evil.  Okay, yeah, she was possessed, and no matter how much I wanted it to, they (Angel and Cordelia) were never in an official relationship.  They were in love, but it (unfortunately) never happened for them.  Stupid, stupid writers.... *grumbles to self*  I also don't see the Buffy and Angel kiss in the last ep of "Buffy" as more than shitty writing again, because it totally doesn't fit their characters at all.  Unless of course, when she ran to meet Angel after coming back from the dead, they ironed out stuff, and in all the...what, two years I'm assuming they didn't talk something changed.  :shruged: Yeah, I just write it off as the writers, once again, dropping the ball.  There were so many plot holes in that ep, that the kiss barely registered on my radar.  It did, but that was not the thing I dwelled on the most.

Many AtS fans were disappointed in how the writers wrote Angel's return in S7, as it was a different Angel. And I think Joss even mentioned that they weren't going to exactly reference what had just been happening in LA, because of the different networks. And because of the strike or crappy decisions, they dropped the ball when it came to dealing with Cordy's death, too, in that they didn't. She's not mentioned by anybody again. That part pissed me off, but I don't blame the characters for that choice.

I've written Cangel among other fics, so yeah, I'm a fan. :) I've just finally started watching season 4 of AtS again, because I wasn't ready for the pain of denial of a chance for them. :D

CM

I liked the idea of Angel/Cordelia, but it never really came off, because it happened during the end of season 3/the horribleness of season 4.  Even if it had to end tragically (and we all know it would have), it seemed like it ended tragically before it even began.  Sure, we had years of Angel/Cordy friendship, but they never really got to test the couple waters.

I hated Angel being back for the Buffy finale.  There was no reason for him to be.  They could have found the magic necklace the same way they found the scythe, if need be.  The two shows hardly acknowledged each other, and then Angel sweeps in?  Please.  As for the bit about implying he was available, that irked me to no end.  So, Buffy and Spike aren't together, fine.  (Well, not fine, but that's beside the point.)  Now Angel comes in and we get her cookie dough speech?  Exactly what has changed between him and Buffy?  Nothing, because they've barely spoken.  Are we now suppposed to believe that he's just there, waiting for her, that all the reasons he left have vanished?

Whoops, that was me.

The kiss could have been written off as simply bad writing but the conversation following it was inexcusable.
I wouldn't put too much stock into his little piece then--it seems to me that when he's around Buffy, it's like slipping on an old shoe.  It was, IMHO, force of habit as opposed to actually meaning anything.  Plus, he was being more pouty and persistent about it because Spike was there, keeping her warm (so to speak).

... it's like slipping on an old shoe... pouty and peristent about it because Spike was there...

However you want to sugarcoat it, the result is still the same: he was still stating that Buffy would always be number one to him, even over Cordelia.  As such, I pity Cordelia for believing that Angel will love her over Buffy, she deserves better than that. Despite the fact that Angel and Buffy had barely any contact since he left Sunnydale, years later all it takes is to see her and back to kissing and promises of eternity. I'm actually glad Cordelia wasn't around to see where Angel's foremost affections still laid.

Context is everything though. By the time of that little Sunnyhell visit, more than a canon year had passed since Angel and Cordy were on that romantic footing! She'd been missing, then back but amnesiac, then (literally) fucking with Connor (while secretly evil and purposely distancing from *everyone* else), then openly evil and about to pop with Jasmine [oh Jasmine. You came and you gave without taking. Except for the eating people of course] and from then on she was unconscious. Meanwhile Angel was dealing with his son having buried him at sea, then Cordy not remembering him and, when she *did*, telling him she couldn't be with him bacause she couldn't forgive him the things he already loathes *himself* for (so he can't even argue), then having to watch her+Connor not even just fucking but seemingly !!gently making love!! while the sky was falling down, then becoming Angelus, then realising Cordy was now evil (but not yet knowing that it was possession of a sort and not really *her*), then getting brainwashed by Jasmine, then getting deprogrammed and disillusioned by Fred, then getting the offer from Wolfram & Hart, realising the only way to save Connor was to remove them all from his memories and following through on it, ending up alone outside his grown-up little boy's house watching him call someone else Dad and knowing he couldn't ever tell any of the people closest to him about it *and* that because of him they were all about to enter the proverbial belly of the beast? 
   Basically, he and Buffy happened, while he and Cordy never quite did - yes he wanted her, and I think we were supposed to see that he loved her (I loved *them* together, a much more realistic, adult and good-for-him relationship than the one with Buffy!) but he didn't have much certainty that Cordy was consistently interested in moving on from just friends. On top of that, in the last year he'd had to accept emotional distance at her behest  (her rejection) and then *really* face it after seeing her with Connor (remember how angry), then utterly lose himself (become Angelus) and, on his return, really accept that she was gone (when it looked like she was evil) and might not come back (when she ended up in a coma) at which point he lost himself again (thanks Jasmine). At the end of all that, he hadn't even been as close as friends with her for MONTHS, *and* he had just lost his only-possible-ever son, and made himself even more alone (and engaged them all with their most powerful adversary) in order to do so.
  So if that was you, and then you had a reason to go see your ex, someone who used to look at you like the moon shone out of your arse, who'd believe you knew what you were doing, and who had stuck by you, nursed you in your weakest moments and even restored you to health occasionally, someone whom you *knew* definitely *had* loved you and probably still *did* quite a bit (cos it hadn't ended for some mundane reason, like finding each other more and more boring and annoying), don't you think you might fall back into old patterns with that someone?? Access the old emotions, the old certainty that *this* is the real deal (that 'how could I have forgotten?!?' feeling), and thus seek (inevitably temporary) escape from your current, painful and loss-filled reality? And have a good time doing it, cos it's more fun than your real life  ... cos it's not real. I've done it. It's very human. And it doesn't last. You can't run away from where you really are for long. And that's why I LOVED the Buffyverse shows and had no beef with its writers - I thought it was often very well-observed. Angel wasn't really expecting Cordy to ever wake up when he showed up in Sunnydale. He was getting used to making hard choices and ending up with no one - the guy's not too big on hope!! Doesn't Wesley show some concern about that in Season 5, not too long before Cordy *does* wake up and sets her man back on track?? The Buffyverse heroes are not absolute, unflawed and unfailing, as demonstrated by the writing for Buffy in S6. We're all Spike-lovers here - man, I WISH! - but it's *because* his unfailing pursuit of Buffy is SOOOOO far from realistic that I love him; he's like the dream guy who'll love us forever and be relentless and committed and never falter, field all our shit, fundamentally change himself for our benefit and shine love and understanding at us for as long as it takes. It's *not* reminiscent of real human people - we get demoralised and insecure and have defence mechanisms, we distance to protect ourselves and yadda yadda yadda. You get the picture. Angel's painted as a much more emotionally usual man(pire) than Spike. He could never show that to his golden pedestal girl, but Cordy saw it and worked with it and actively drew him out into relating normally. That's why the two of them worked. And I really should stop typing now...

While not "shipping" them as such I think they made a viable couple.  Angel became juvenile and manipulative around Buffy and she became a weak, clingy child willing to be led.  With Cordy Angel actually grew.  Actually she insisted on it by calling him on his behavior constantly.  She in turn changed from a spoiled bitca who only seemed to care for herself to being adult and self sacrificing.  Cordy saw Angel clearly even his Angelus undertones...no rose colored glasses for her.  She had a stake in the drawer and a promise to use it if needed.  Angel saw Cordy flaws and all and didn't have her on some altar.  That shows to me that Angel and Cordy brought out the best in each other and actually knew each other faults and all.

This parallels Spike and Buffy who actually saw each other clearly, challenged each other to be their best selves. 

I also liked the dynamic with Angel and Faith but in thinking about it he was too much the "mentor" there for it to be a partnership so Cordy was the best bet then!

I think Angel actually loved the idea of  Buffy and that idea had little to do with the real girl.  He loved the woman who was Cordy.  If he had to chose my guess is he would have chosen Cordy.

Kathleen

Also....on Ats when Angel is offered the amulet without the other perks (Cordy being cared for and the mind wipe about Connor) he balks and says Buffy can handle the apocalypse just fine.  SO he DIDN'T seem to care as much about Buffy and her war as his own family there...ON THAT SHOW.

The whole kiss on BtVS was to placate the Bangel shippers.  In fact the speech from Buffy was so weird considering.  I mean commitment was NEVER her problem regarding Angel...she was ready at 16 and even after the whole Angelus disaster!  Their problem (okay I think there were a whole lot of problems that would have made it impossible for them to EVER make it as a couple for longer than a year, but in their minds) was the curse and potential loss of his soul.  The speech she gave to Angel was more applicable to Spike.  Angel's part in that conversation was just jealous ex-boyfriend marking territory not a reaffirmation of love.  Somehow Buffy was HIS even if he had moved on.  The fact it was SPIKE made it even more of an issue as Angel's demon side was always ready to prove HE owned the women and Spike was only allowed the odd moment at Angelus' whim.  I didn't get any "love" vibe there at all, just teen angst and property issues.

I think if Cordy had any LOVE competition it was Darla, after all Angel was willing to die in the trials to save her life!

Kathleen

Oh and great point above on old habits and memories being a key!  How many people start to wax nostalgic about the great "high school love" and even have affairs during class reunions only to rue it later because they had both changed and their memory was flawed to begin with!  The real "love affair" was with the simpler, more innocent times that are connected with that person in memory.  That is what Angel was for Buffy from S4 onward and what Buffy was for Angel whenever his life was too messy.

Yeah, Joss had Angel come over like that for the people that only watched BTVS (and it always surprises me to find them, as it was a foregone conclusion to me to watch both shows), and there were plenty that had only ever watched AtS, too, so Angel's trek over there wasn't going to matter to them, either. Cuz Joss can never just decide to stick with one ship or no ship, he has to dangle forever the chance to both, and so both get shafted in the end. Bangel got another unrealistic OOC fairytale scene, and Spuffy.....well, we all know what we got.

But I can tell you the Cangel shippers that also watched BTVS were mega pissed at the time.

CM

I thought Cordelia and Angel had great potential from the episode where he was drugged and started acting like he lost his soul and even though it had a plot hole big enough to drive a tractor trailer through it also had Cordy stopping Angel in a mere fraction of the time it took Buffy and Cordy didn't need super powers to do it.

Not to mention that she left him tied up because of what he said to her and that acknowledged (in a small way) that his is Angelus even with a soul. Buffy would've let him go immediately.

Plus one noteworthy thing is that the fantasy that released his soul was dictated by his wishes and that wasn't Buffy in his bed it was Cordelia. Him saying Buffy could be seen as thinking of her because he felt his soul leaving again. His fantasy could have had her show up with a way to anchor his soul and then tell him they could test it out if Buffy was still his love. Buffy was more of an idea to him, Cordy was a real woman.

ladycat713

Cross-posted from my lj:

I was never really into Cordy/Angel. I mean, I get objectively why they'd make a good pairing, but I just wasn't invested in them. (Also, I think the things that would make them a good pairing are the same things that made them a fantastic friendship, so why mess with a good thing?) So, last night, I was watching "Spin the Bottle" (thank you, Scarlet), and I finally figured out what about the ship turns me off.

It's trying to be Bangel. It's as though the writers felt like the best way to compete with the Buffy/Angel relationship was to make Cordy/Angel just as star-crossed - even though the relationship was completely different. The thing is, Cordy and Angel had this deep friendship Buffy and Angel never had. And it didn't have to be romantic - their chemistry reminds me a lot of early Buffy/Willow, or season 5 Angel/Spike. (In fact, Cordy's relationship with Angel is exactly like Spike's. They both know him better than anyone, they're the ones to always call him on his shit, and they're the best at bringing out both petty!Angel and hero!Angel... and omg, I just realized that Spike was totally brought in to replace Cordy twice.)

Er, yeah. Where was I? Right. Angel and Cordy, totally different foundation from Angel and Buffy. But as soon as Angel recognizes his feelings for Cordy, the writers start throwing up one artificial roadblock after another, trying to come up with ways to keep them apart, when there's really no good reason to. First it's Groo, then Cordy disappears, then she's back but she's lost her memory, then she remembers everything, but she knows too much, then the Connor thing, and then he's evil, and then she's evil, and by the time we get to the coma, instead of thinking how sad it is that they missed their chance and they'll never be together, I'm going ZOMG, thank goodness it's finally OVER! Which I don't think was the intention...

The thing is, Bangel was star-crossed because they really could never be together. Even without the vampire/Slayer obstacle, or Angel's slippery soul, their relationship was teenage and idealistic, and that never, ever works out in real life. But Cordy and Angel were different. They had a solid friendship, and there was no good reason they couldn't turn it into a relationship, if they'd just, y'know, put a little effort into it. But instead we get two years of UST and pining away, and the whole time I'm thinking, "Be together. Don't be together. It doesn't matter. Just stop angsting about it." (Which, incidentally, is what I spent much of the early seasons saying to Buffy and Angel.)

If they wanted to go the relationship route with Cordy and Angel, the model shouldn't have been Bangel, it should have been Spuffy. Sure, Buffy and Spike were messy, and complicated, and occasionally just plain awful, but they were real. The conflict between them was internal, not some external roadblock that keeps them apart (and, IMO, internal conflict is always a better story than external conflict). And that's what I wanted to see from Cordy/Angel (or would have wanted to see, if I'd actually cared about them getting together).

At first I agreed with those who posted above that there was no reason for Angel to appear on the Buffy finale, but thinking about it changed my mind.  Mainly I think it gave Spike the courage and strength to go through with dying in the hellmouth because he knew that Buffy had chosen him rather than Angel to be her champion.  But it also set up enough doubt in him that after he turned solid in Angel season 5, he decided NOT to go find Buffy; if he hadn't seen that interlude between Buffy and Angel, would he have had any reason to stay in L.A.?  (It gave Joss the excuse he needed to have the Spike character stay on AtS all season, and I certainly can't argue with the rationale if it gave me another year of enjoying seeing Spike and James Marsters!)  In terms of trivia, that scene with Buffy and Angel was worth it if only for the fun of seeing Spike put Angel's face on his punching bag and make the silly comment about saying hello with tongues!

I do still agree with everyone who said that Angel seemed to have totally put his feelings for Cordy aside when he went back to Sunnydale at the end of the BtVS series to meet Buffy. That made me sad. I hadn't realized how much I truly missed Cordelia until she came back for the 100th episode!  Then I saw how much freshness and light and energy she brought to the series, and most of all I saw how much her presence made Angel a better person when he had her around.  Whether it was a strong friendship or love, they were wonderful together.  In fact, I'd love to find some really good fanfic stories about Angel and Cordelia.  Does anyone have any recommendations?

Mainly I think it gave Spike the courage and strength to go through with dying in the hellmouth because he knew that Buffy had chosen him rather than Angel to be her champion. But it also set up enough doubt in him that after he turned solid in Angel season 5, he decided NOT to go find Buffy; if he hadn't seen that interlude between Buffy and Angel, would he have had any reason to stay in L.A.? (It gave Joss the excuse he needed to have the Spike character stay on AtS

While I hated the whole Buffy basking on Angel my impression was that it was meant as humor and as a tribute for the Bangel shippers and the Buffy-Angel Forever fantasy.  That whole scene kissing scene is put into a different context with her "are you twelve" comment.  What I really disliked with the Angel-Buffy get together was a continuation of her potential for still wanting to have Angel in her life.  Buffy. IMHO, by this time has lived through so much shit and trauma, both of her own making and what life has thrown at her, that she should have moved on from any more need or desire for a romantic relationship with Angel - Let The Slayer grow up already.  

Angel bringing the amulet. IMO, was a much needed plot device - it gives the logical vehicle for Spike to show up at Wolfram and Hart and also,  gives a good reason and support for Spike to have obstacles to simply going back to Buffy.  Spike needed that time to understand  his own self-worth away from Buffy and his love.  He ultimately knows that he can and does become a warrior and hero with his own inner strength and character - not as an extension of his love for Buffy.

Angel and Cordelia would have been a great romantic couple and I wish that the writers had allowed for that relationship to develop - It was, IMVHO, a real pity that the series  never made a clean break from the Buffy-Angel Forever theme or that a more in depth exploration of the negative impact that relationship had on Buffy.  Cordelia was a great contrast to Buffy's form of love for Angel and would have been such a strong force to bring a powerful and mature love into Angel's life.

From Eowyn 315:

"In fact, Cordy's relationship with Angel is exactly like Spike's. They both know him better than anyone, they're the ones to always call him on his shit, and they're the best at bringing out both petty!Angel and hero!Angel... and omg, I just realized that Spike was totally brought in to replace Cordy twice.)"

great observation of "petty/Angel and hero/Angel" -

I'd say it not that he loved Cordy more it's that unlike your first love with is often idealized He loved Cordelia like a grown up warts and all, which is how Cordy loved him. She got that he wasn't perfect even with the soul, unlike Buffy who saw him through the eyes of a young girl with hero worship. I think that why in the end she picked Spike to be her champion. The grown up Buffy understand that your first love will always be special but not necessarily forever. I always felt like Buffy and Angel were too much alike to much the carry the world on their shoulders type they need someone that would call them out on their crap. Enter Spike and Cordy their perfect matches because Angel could be himself with Cordy and would stand by her no matter what and the same can be true of Buffy to Spike when she choose to have his chip removed and told Wood to back off not to mention to his side over Giles (all things i wish Spike would of heard). But my point is that Angel/Cordy and Buffy/Spike are mature pairings full of laughter and real companionship.

Well, between re-watching S4 recently, and this discussion, I started writing a Cangel fic.

Thanks, guys! :P

Caro Mio

I thought the relationship between Cordelia and Angel was much better than his one with Buffy and could have been lasting if the writers hadn't screwed up.

For one thing he was a lot more comfortable with Cordy since he let himself be dorky around her.For another , Cordy would take him down in a heartbeat if he reverted to Angelus.She proved that in the epi where the actress drugged him .

Not to mention it showed that Cordy , at least seemed to believe that Angel was responsible for Angelus' action since she refused to let him loose after the drugs wore off. That alone is a great reason to like this epi even with the massive plot hole in it because if he had really lost his soul, how did it get back and if he never lost it, then he's just really mean on drugs.

Ok, guys, now your just being silly!. Buffy is his number 1. Cordy was just like nina only a tad more emotionale. I think all of you Bangel haters just want the relationship between b and a to be fake so the Spuffy will be real. And btw i'm both a Spuffy and a bangel (yeah, sick right?;)) so i speak for both sides. It's the same thing when people say that dru were Spike's biggest love, just wishfull thinking from the bangels!. Cordy is our w thinking!. BecomingChosenGirl13.

Meant more real btw:).

Buffy is his number 1. Cordy was just like nina only a tad more emotionale.
Oh wow...

Of all the couples named, Cordy and Angel made the most sense (pre her becoming a higher being and her body being hijacked or whatever.  Also, no one mentioned Spike and Angel--I root for them the most, I think.  Or hey, Angel/Darla).  Cordy knew the ins and outs of Angel, made him happy,  whereas Buffy didn't.  Ever.  Buffy and Angel did not know who the other was.  And this opinion has nothing to do with Spuffy, btw.  From a canon standpoint, Buffy made more sense with Spike than anyone else, but I think Spike would ultimately do better without her.  The bottom line IMHO is that Angel and Buffy were "puppy love," and that's it--idealistic and unrealistic and just flat out boring and a drag.  Also, Nina shouldn't even be mentioned since Angel didn't love her--that was just someone he was dating.

Cordy knew the ins and outs of Angel, made him happy, whereas Buffy didn't. Ever.
Well, she did make him happy that one time... ;)

But yeah, while I'm the first to admit there's a heaping load of Spike and Spuffy bias 'round these parts, I really don't think the main reason for supporting Cordy/Angel is to make Buffy/Angel less real. If we wanted to criticize the Buffy/Angel relationship (and there has been much of that on this forum), there are plenty of ways to do it that have nothing to do with Cordelia. It's a ridiculous concept, anyway, that you need one "true love" relationship to prove that another relationship wasn't "real." Having a relationship with someone, or loving someone, doesn't in any way invalidate any love or relationship that came before or after it. Thinking it does is a pretty juvenile belief, and one that personally I've noticed a lot of Bangel shippers subscribe to.

Well, she did make him happy that one time... ;)
True.  But I guess...Cordy was able to make Angel happy with no sex, so she trumps Buffy in that respect :)

ETA: But I agree that whatever relationship that Buffy and Angel had after each other does not diminish what they had, but that isn't to say that what they had was "the greatest love of all" either.

While I think that Cordelia and Angel makes sense, I actually prefer them more as friends. :) I love it when we have a strong friendship between a guy and a girl without turning it into a relationship: Like Xander and Buffy. I thought Angel and Cordy's relationship was much more special when they were just friends, but that's just me. :)

While I think that Cordelia and Angel makes sense, I actually prefer them more as friends. :) I love it when we have a strong friendship between a guy and a girl without turning it into a relationship: Like Xander and Buffy. I thought Angel and Cordy's relationship was much more special when they were just friends, but that's just me. :)

Here, here.

I've felt that about a lot of pairings across different fandoms. Angel and Cordelia made far better friends.