I loved the whole older brother and caretaker Spike had with Dawn and I hated when that line was dropped from the show.

I always thought that Spike and Dawn had a very close bro/sis relationship. That Spike was the only one who really took care of Dawn and the Summers household, especially the first past of the summer before Willow and Tara moved in. And even then, I think that Willow didn't do much to help out and Tara did only part time.

It couldn't have all been gloom and doom like the short scenes we saw in the premere ep of S6 and I'm guessing that Spike was vital in keeping Dawn safe and sound, both physically and mentally. Not just as a simple babysitter but as the only friend that she could tell about her supernatual life and a parental figure to the troubled young fourteen year old girl

One think I noticed in Seeing Red was that Dawn guessed that Spike wouldn't be coming around anymore. So I take it that Spike still maintained his friendship with Dawn even after they all evicted him once Buffy was back. I highly doubt that Willow or Buffy, being all caught up in her pity-me phase were doing things like help Dawn with her homework or take Dawn shopping for stuff or balence checks and buy groceries.

What do you guys think?

There are an abundance of fics that deal with the Spike - Dawn dynamic (not the icky one, the real one).  So I would say that there are a lot of writers who totally agree with you.  I don't know of a huge number set in that summer in between, but the ones that are (or that begin in that time frame and go on from there) are mostly wonderful and full of bittersweet glimpses of them grieving together and then learning to cope together. However, I don't know how much of that idea the Spike was the primary caretaker was canon, and how much fanon. I suspect it was mostly fanon that took a few references to Spike's being her "babysitter" and turned them into a whole thing about how he took care of her.  There are also some great fics that have Dawn taking care of him as he tries to eat or starve himself to death.

Dawn seems pretty close with Tara, though, and has become quite comfortable with Willow and Tara living there, so i don't think they were never around. Assuming neither took classes during the day, there was a lot of time for Dawn to see them around the house. (Tara probably tried to work, but I doubt Willow did.) But those times that Willow had meetings with Xander, Anya, and Tara...Spike was probably with Dawn. She was his tether to existing, really, since he'd made that promise.

Yeah, the "anymore" line implies that she's still seen him some, though I doubt it was nearly as much during the Spuffy pornfest as before Buffy came back. Though I think Dawn would understand that, if resent it a little, knowing he loved her sister. But except for that one word, it is implied on screen that Spike's focus was solely Buffy and Buffy only. Didn't help his image. He could probably only sneak over to the house when Buffy was at work.

At 15, Dawn is old enough to stay home by herself provided you can trust her to stay in the house. You can do that in CA starting at age 12. Spike would give her that leeway until she abused it.

CM

I've always been a fan of the Spike-Dawn dynamic and often incorporate it into my Spuffy fiction. My impression of the summer between Season 5 & 6 was that Willow and Tara were Dawn's primary caretakers and that Spike took over when they couldn't, either when they were at work, in school, otherwise predisposed or during the evenings. It's difficult ot say if he continued to see her during Season 6. It seems to me that if they did, it was rarely, and that Spike's primary focus was Buffy. That said, it never sat right with me that they never had an on-screen reconciiation in S7. Dawn's a pretty forgiving person - she forgives Willow and Buffy for their slights against her - so I'd be shocked that she couldn't find it within herself to forgive Spike when it's clear they meant a lot to each other.

I've written a few one-shots and ficlets set between seasons, as well as a possible S7 reconciliation scenario. They are linked below, if you're interested in my interpretation of their relationship:

Shallow Cuts ~ Spike and Dawn grieve together shortly after Buffy's death.
 
Tea for Two ~ Set some weeks after "Shallow Cuts." Tara and Spike discuss Dawn and Buffy over tea one evening.

Acts of Contrition ~ This fic is primarily about what happened following the last scene in "Showtime" after Buffy saves Spike from The First. The first few scenes of the piece show Spike and Dawn's reconciliation.

I've always enjoyed the Spike-Dawn friendship and I was upset that none of them tried to solve their issues in S7, it seemed that Dawn stuck with her anger toward Spike and Spike was more interested in fixing things with Buffy.

I disagree that Spike was the only one who took care of Dawn in that summer. I think all the Scoobies were there for her, obviously Willow and Tara moved into the Summers' house for Dawn. Xander and Anya must have baby-sitting times, I remember when they were at the airport saying good bye to Giles, Xander side-hugging Dawn and she hugged him back, which shows how close they are. Also, when Anya discovered that Dawn stole from the Magic Box, she said disappointedly that she took care of Dawn and this is how she repays her? The Giles-Dawn goodbye scene shows that he also took time to look after her.

Like others have said, I don't think that Spike was the only one to take care of Dawn, I think it is pretty obvious that the Scoobies were all doing their bit to take care of her. I think Spike was, apart from being her friend,  the 'body guard' especially if the others had places to be at night.

One of my favourite stories for showing Spike and Dawn between S5 and 6 is Journeys by Mary.

I don't think Spike was the only one to take take of Dawn, the others were helping out too, but I do think that Spike was the only one who devoted to taking care of her full-time, the others just helped during their spare time and such. When it came to priorities, Dawn was at the top of Spike's list, something that none of the others could claim.

Maybe because Spike had nothing else to do, the Scoobies probably got him the blood he needed because he's helping them out: taking care of Dawn when they couldn't (job + patrol) and helping them patrol.

I wonder about Dawn in the opening of S6, everybody was busy slaying vampires and no one stayed home with Dawn. Maybe they had her sleepover at Janice's.

I think she was at the top of his list 1. because of his promise to Buffy to take care of her, and 2. because in season five they did have a slight friendship.

I also think that Spike as well as all the Scoobies and Giles cared for Dawn - she was not only valued as Buffy's sister, but was loved as Dawn.  All their efforts with The Buffy Bot and the schools/social services show that they wanted Dawn to be with them.  Dawn was never abandoned to be in the hands of Social Services.  Spike loved and cared for her, but was also deeply motivated by his guilt with not having been able to save Dawn and Buffy from Glory.

I don't think it's about controlling the fans or not wanting to encourage shipping. I think it's that they don't want to give the idea that there's anything inappropriate going on. They had the same concerns all the way back in season one with Buffy and Giles - on the DVD commentary for "Welcome to the Hellmouth," Joss mentions the scene where Giles is leaning over Buffy (up against the wall) and they were like, "They must be at least six inches apart!" and Joss kept telling people to pull them apart a little bit because they didn't want it to look like Giles and Buffy were doing anything inappropriate.

... and yet they had Angel admit that he fell in love with Buffy with she was 15 (the same age as Dawn in season six) -> that just screamed pedophile to me

...and then they wrote Angel and Buffy in a romantic relationship when Buffy was 16, during which Buffy was discussing with Willow the possibilty of her having sex with Angel.

Last time I checked U.S. laws, fully grown men who are romantically attracted to and involved with 15-16 year old girls are considered pedophiles and thrown in jail if they act on those impulses.

So how they hell did people NOT raise holy hell when the show aired those little things? That's not just sarcasm, I'm really asking. Does anyone know?

HJ

I'm sure you'll find plenty of people on here willing to call Angel a pedophile. Personally, I think Angel was just as emotionally immature as Buffy was, and it's a little silly to be talking about ages at all when one of the parties has had a bicentennial.

In terms of the show's position on what's appropriate and not, I don't think it has anything to do with specific ages, but how they portray the characters and the intended relationship between them.

Giles is the school librarian, equivalent to Buffy's teacher, and later on becomes a father figure, so it's inappropriate to portray them too close or intimate. Angel is intended to be Buffy's love interest, so they don't have to worry about how it looks - it's supposed to be intimate. Likewise, Spike has been put in a big brother role for Dawn, so it's again awkward and somewhat inappropriate for them to appear intimate. (It's worth noting, however, that it's apparently completely acceptable for Willow and Xander to be drooling over 16-year-old Dawn at the Bronze before they realize it's her.)

I think the fact that it was ok is a good example of how such things can be very situational and very much dependent upon the relationships already established.  Giles was in a position of authority over Buffy, as well as being a father figure - hence any relationship is somewhat icky.  Ditto for Spike, Willow, Xander, et al who have watched Dawn growing up and consider her a younger sister figure.  
However, I also think that there is not much concern for age differences on the show. Wesley and Cordelia, for instance. He may have been emotionally and socially immature, and she may have been technically legal, but still adult man/teenage girl.
Then again, some of those age differences would have been perfectly acceptable 200 years ago, so...

But they didn't just maintain an appropriate physical difference with Spike and Dawn, they stopped having seems of them togather alone completely. I never would have thought for a second that Spike thought of her as anything but a kid, especially because he's in love with Buffy.  They never had a vibe that was anything BUT brother and sister.

I was shocked when I first saw a listing of Buffy/Giles fic, as I'd, again, never thought to go there, ever. He's like her father! Eww!

You know, it's really about how the actors play the characters in the scene....that's what dictates how the audience is going to see the moment protrayed. They had a whole cast of actors that were very professional about approaching their characters, so would it really be so hard.......

CM

Well, it'd be pretty hard for them to stop having scenes with Giles and Buffy together, lol. It's a lot easier to separate Spike and Dawn - especially since it seems like separating Spike from everyone but Buffy was the plan for season six in general.

I will admit, I can see Spike/Dawn as a pairing a lot easier than I can see Buffy/Giles, mainly because Dawn DID have a crush on Spike, so the feelings were there, albeit one-sided. And since they did Buffy/Angel, that puts Spike/Dawn within the realm of possibility even with the age difference, so I can see how they might want to keep that relationship very unambiguous. I don't think they needed to go quite so far as to avoid it completely, but I can understand being overly cautious about the way it's portrayed.

I think the real reason was the actors/actresses ages: SMG and David were both legal adults when "Buffy" was supposed to be 15/16. Michelle T. was actually 15/16 during the sixth sixth season of Buffy.

Marti was probably worried about people raising the "holy hell" that HJ mentioned.

-Sam

I think the real reason was the actors/actresses ages: SMG and David were both legal adults when "Buffy" was supposed to be 15/16. Michelle T. was actually 15/16 during the sixth sixth season of Buffy.

True.  Michelle was 15/16 during Season Sex, and James was 39/40.  Michelle was very underaged, and James was practically middle aged.  Can we say "Ewww?"  That takes old enough to be her father just a tad too far.  I can see how the producers would want to avoid an uproar; however, I don't think there was a need to nix the big brother-little sister relationship entirely, aside from completely isolating Spike for plot reasons, that is.

I can see how the producers would want to avoid an uproar; however, I don't think there was a need to nix the big brother-little sister relationship entirely, aside from completely isolating Spike for plot reasons, that is.

Yeah, instead of putting a little effort into MAINTAINING the brother/sister relationship Spike and Dawn already had (not to mention the only healthy friendship he had with a "good guy", the writers seemed to take the coward's way out and drop the whole friendship altogether.

I suspect that isolating him from everyone except Buffy was intentional and has as much to do with plot as anything else. Clearly he could have maintained his big brother vibe without squicking anyone out.

Michelle was 15/16 during Season Sex, and James was 39/40. Michelle was very underaged, and James was practically middle aged.
Yeah, but since their onscreen relationship wasn't sexual, that really shouldn't have mattered.  If that was the case, then Michelle shouldn't have had any scenes with Nic Brendan alone either.  And I know that James is older than Nic, but hell, a grown man is a grown man.

But to be fair to the story, they implied (lamely) that Spike wasn't that isolated from the Scoobies and Dawn--we just didn't get to see any of it.

But to be fair to the story, they implied (lamely) that Spike wasn't that isolated from the Scoobies and Dawn--we just didn't get to see any of it.
Actually, I think it's the opposite. If we didn't get to see any of it, there's a reason for that. I think they intended to portray Spike as isolated from the Scoobies - the whole relationship is set up as an either/or situation. Buffy runs away from the Scoobies and to Spike. Spike wants her to be with him, not them. She can't live in both worlds, so eventually she has to choose. I think any references or implications that Spike was still hanging around are just incidental - the intention was to show them as polar opposites, separate from each other.

I think they intended to portray Spike as isolated from the Scoobies - the whole relationship is set up as an either/or situation. Buffy runs away from the Scoobies and to Spike. Spike wants her to be with him, not them. She can't live in both worlds, so eventually she has to choose. I think any references or implications that Spike was still hanging around are just incidental - the intention was to show them as polar opposites, separate from each other.

Ditto.  Spike says it himself: "You belong in the shadows with me."

Yeah, but since their onscreen relationship wasn't sexual, that really shouldn't have mattered.

I just meant that, if anyone were to misconstrue the onscreen dynamic of the Spike and Dawn relationship, they would probably site Michelle and James's age difference as a squick factor.  They could have portrayed the relationship with absolutely not intended sexual undertones, but someone out there is always giving things a twisted spin.

Just because we don't see it does it mean it didn't happen (though to be fair, I initially thought as much until later in the season).  In "Seeing Red," Dawn says "You aren't going to be coming around anymore, are you?"  There's really only one way to interpret that--that he was there previously, and now he wouldn't be because of the whole Anya thing. 

The whole "shadows" comment was more about getting Buffy off than actual truth in my opinion--he was purposely feeding into her "this is bad, wrong sex" paranoia with that line, because she got off on it.

As for Spike, he wanted her.  It didn't matter if it was in "his world" on hers, he just wanted to be with her.  He wanted her friends to know, and to not be a dirty little secret, but he took what he could.  Spike spent the whole summer with her friends and family.  The "his world/her world" view only comes into play when Buffy draws that line of Spike not belonging, but only to make herself feel better about sleeping with a soulless vampire.

Michelle turned 18 in October of 2003, so she's 17 for most of Season 7, 16 for most of Season 6 - a year older than Dawn.

Yeah, but since their onscreen relationship wasn't sexual, that really shouldn't have mattered.  If that was the case, then Michelle shouldn't have had any scenes with Nic Brendan alone either.

Totally agree.

CM

Just because we don't see it does it mean it didn't happen
I think you missed my point. I didn't say it didn't happen, though I think you're hanging an awful lot on a single word. I'm saying we're supposed to get a particular impression from what we're shown, and the relationships that get screen time are the ones we're supposed to focus on. It's not as if they didn't have time or opportunities to show Spike interacting with the Scoobies. They had plenty. Unlike season seven, which was overcrowded and a lot of things got dropped, season six was really light on overarching plot - we didn't even get a Big Bad until the last four episodes, and the Trio was a paltry distraction for much of the season. The individual character arcs weren't particularly complicated, either.

If they had wanted to show us Spike hanging out with the Scoobies, if they'd wanted us to consider him as part of the group, they would've written it that way. They didn't. They wrote Spike as completely isolated from everyone but Buffy, and they did it for a reason. We're supposed to see them as separated, as two opposing paths for Buffy to choose, and no amount of mental gymnastics to fanwank one line of Dawn's will change how the relationship between Spike and the Scoobies was portrayed by the writers. I don't think that Spike completely disappeared from their lives as soon as Buffy came back, but I DO think he was around a LOT less, and I think that was deliberate by the writers.

though I think you're hanging an awful lot on a single word.  
Sentence--not a word.  I think it's fair to say that the writers of Buffy were very particular, and they wouldn't have had her say that without a reason.  In "Two To Go," Dawn speaks very highly of Spike to Xander.  I don't see someone talking highly of someone who's been seriously MIA for several months on end.  Particularly someone who has a degree of abandonment issues.

If they had wanted to show us Spike hanging out with the Scoobies, if they'd wanted us to consider him as part of the group, they would've written it that way.
But they did--he's at Buffy's party, and he's at Xander's wedding.  No one was shocked/surprised to see him (cept for Buffy).  When he shows up in the Magic Box in TR, the only thing that shocks everyone is his change of clothes, and not his presence.

ETA:  The whole "Spike's isolated from the group" was what was perceived that season in general, I agree.  But it was misleading--I think that since they decided to drop most of the Spike and Dawn moments, they then dropped the ball on Spike's interaction with the others as well.

That's three episodes out of twenty-two. Compare that to seasons four and five - Spike interacted with the Scoobies in almost every episode he appeared in. Often, in season four, he'd be spending time with the Scoobies and NOT Buffy (Doomed, A New Man,  Where the Wild Things Are). In season five, we see Spike at Scooby meetings, and again we see him spending time with Scoobies without Buffy. But once Buffy comes back from the dead, we rarely see him with anyone but her. Even in the episodes you named - at the birthday party, he's trying to get Buffy alone, and he hardly speaks to anyone at the wedding besides her. There's a clear and obvious paradigm shift that happens after Buffy and Spike get together.

I don't think it was dropping the ball - I think it was deliberate. It fits right in with how hard they pushed the light vs. dark, and Spike pointing out how she's always with him and not with her friends, and the way that telling Buffy's friends about the relationship becomes such a wedge issue for Buffy and Spike. There's supposed to be a clear and obvious divide between the two, and Buffy is forced to choose between them. That can't happen if Spike is still seen as part of the group.

That's three episodes out of twenty-two. Compare that to seasons four and five - Spike interacted with the Scoobies in almost every episode he appeared in.
I'm sure there are more eps--I just haven't viewed s6 in awhile.  At any rate, the bulk of Spike's screen time is with Buffy, true.  But on that same token, the bulk of her screen time is either with him, patrolling, or slinging burgers.  If you exclude any scene of her actually in her house, that would mean that Buffy was just as MIA as he was (granted, she wasn't spending too much time with Dawn, but I'm talking in general with everyone who wasn't Spike), and that would certainly be noticed by her friends, but it never comes up.  She must have been getting face time with them at other points in time in which we don't see, just like he was (presumably).

Now I don't have the actual time frames of any of that, but I do think it'd be interesting to compare and contrast the actual screen time of Buffy and her friends outside of the Summers' home to season five or seven.

But on that same token, the bulk of her screen time is either with him, patrolling, or slinging burgers.
Yeah... that's the whole theme of the season - Buffy is running away from her life and spending time with Spike instead. She spends several episodes "in the dark with him" and then she breaks it off, making the decision to go back to her life and her friends (that shot of Buffy walking into the light at the end of "As You Were" wasn't just because SMG looks pretty in the sun). Of course most of her scenes would be with Spike - the writers are trying to make the same point about isolation with her that they are with Spike. But once the break-up occurs, the focus turns to Scooby relationships - "Hell's Bells" is all about the Scoobies (mainly Xander and Anya, but also the others' relationships with each of them), "Normal Again" tests Buffy's relationships with her friends and Dawn, and "Entropy" is where her two separate worlds of Scoobies and Spike finally collide and the truth comes out.

and that would certainly be noticed by her friends, but it never comes up.
Actually, it does - Dawn points out that Buffy's never around more than once, but most prominently in "Older and Far Away." In "Seeing Red," Xander realizes that he and Buffy haven't been as close as they used to be, and I think Willow eventually comes to a similar conclusion. But the other theme of the season is that everyone is so wrapped up in their own problems that they don't notice anyone else's. Xander is preoccupied with Anya and the wedding and then the fallout, while Willow is consumed with her magic and then throws herself into recovery, struggling with withdrawal. So of course it takes until almost the end of the season to bring up that Buffy's not spending as much time with her friends as usual, because her friends have been too preoccupied with other things to notice. It was a failing on all their parts, their self-absorption and blindness to each other's needs.

...the writers are trying to make the same point about isolation with her that they are with Spike. But once the break-up occurs, the focus turns to Scooby relationships...But the other theme of the season is that everyone is so wrapped up in their own problems that they don't notice anyone else's. Xander is preoccupied with Anya and the wedding and then the fallout, while Willow is consumed with her magic and then throws herself into recovery, struggling with withdrawal. So of course it takes until almost the end of the season to bring up that Buffy's not spending as much time with her friends as usual, because her friends have been too preoccupied with other things to notice.
Then wouldn't that make it an overall separation from one another, and not strictly isolation?  If everyone's off doing their own thing and dealing with their own problems, then really, no one's "hanging out" often or what have you, because no one's there.  The Scoobies problems didn't start when Buffy dumped Spike--they'd been there for the bulk of the season.  Everyone was out elsewhere, so you can't notice who's not there or who's "isolating" themselves from the group if collectively no one is there to make "the group" in the first place.

I think you're both right.  *g*  I do think the writers were trying to make a point of Buffy's separation from everyone. Buffy's insistence on keeping her changed relationship with Spike a secret make it necessary to keep scenes of them together as a couple separate from scenes with the Scoobies.  And that emphasizes how her "real" life is separate from theirs. However, I think everyone (except poor Dawn) was too busy with their own stuff much of the time to even notice that she wasn't around as much as she should have been.
  I do think Spike was around a good bit; perhaps not as much as he had been before he and Buffy started sleeping together, but that's as much because Buffy was coming to him at his crypt more often than it was that he wasn't welcome at the house.  I don't see he and Dawn dropping their relationship entirely, although it would have been less of an everyday thing now that her "real" guardian was back.  And Dawn's pretty perceptive, she might have picked up on the change in their relationship if he'd been seen interacting with Buffy a lot around the house.  I think the fact that the times we do see him at the house or anywhere else, no one comments on his absence or seems surprised to see him speaks to the fact that he wasn't really MIA, just not on camera while the writers concentrated on all the other characters and their issues. Spike's issues and his story arc all revolve around Buffy, so we mostly see him when he's with her.
Or, possibly, I'm not awake enough for any of this. LOL

Everyone was out elsewhere, so you can't notice who's not there or who's "isolating" themselves from the group if collectively no one is there to make "the group" in the first place.
No, there's still a distinct group. Scooby meetings or social gatherings take place in every single episode, regardless of what else is going on. Even though they're all wrapped up in their own problems, only Buffy and Spike are consistently physically removed from the rest of the gang.

No, there's still a distinct group. Scooby meetings or social gatherings take place in every single episode, regardless of what else is going on.
But it's not like they (Buffy and Spike) were in exile or never there.  To piggyback on Slayme, of course most of the scenes with Spike are him with Buffy since that was his story arc--you can't show what he does 24/7 because it is a 42 minute show. 

I do think Spike was around a good bit; perhaps not as much as he had been before he and Buffy started sleeping together, but that's as much because Buffy was coming to him at his crypt more often than it was that he wasn't welcome at the house.
I concur 100%.

I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here, so this is it. I'm not saying they were in exile or never there. I'm not even saying Spike wasn't welcome at the house or anywhere else. I'm saying the emphasis (by the writers) was on their separation from the others. I'm saying if they had wanted to show that Spike was around all the time and a welcome member of the group, they could've shown us that, and they chose not to. All they had to do was stick him in the background of the Scooby meetings they had every other episode. Didn't even have to add lines or scenes. But they didn't, and I'm saying that it was a deliberate choice on the writers' part to suggest a separation and emphasize the themes.