Some questions raised here lately have set me to wondering about the “Spike must be a vampire” rule and about my frequent occasional rants about AH fics.   When and where does a fic cross the line?

Please note: This is me speaking strictly as a private person/member, not as a mod. Nothing I say here is going down as a new rule, or change to an old one, although some of it may offer some explanation for those who aren’t clear on the guidelines for posting.

We do have a couple of fics on here where Buffy isn’t a slayer. Not many, because then you are going into AH territory, even if she meets vampire Spike.  But some. And I’ve read some elsewhere.  They don’t set my teeth on edge like an AH fic would, but I rarely actually think of the heroine/victim as “my” Buffy” either.  No matter how well-done they are (and some are quite good), I view them as Spike/Other fics. No different than Spike/Dru, Spike/Lydia, Spike/random OC slayer, etc.  They’re acceptable on the verse (usually) because Spike is the vampire and the object of his affection is a small blonde named Buffy.

But what about Spike?  What if Buffy meets a non-vamp Spike? Well, there we get into territory that’s been pretty thoroughly mapped out for us.  Spike wasn’t born a vampire; he was born William, the shy poet and mamma’s boy. So, any fic that is set before he is vamped is fine in terms of Spike not being a vampire. (As long as Buffy is the Slayer.) Because we know he’s going to be one day. Not that a story that consisted of nothing but William going about his business in Victorian London would be likely to hold anyone’s interest very long, or be an acceptable fic for an archive devoted to vampires and a specific pairing, but even that could constitute something worth reading. Just not here. ☺

Ditto for any future fics in which Spike has shashued – whether into a normal human man or into something more like a male slayer.  He’s still Spike, with all the attendant baggage and experiences that brings.  As long as the world is the one in which vampires and slayers exist, and he has his place in it, all is well. I’m not saying it would necessarily be acceptable here, but I think there are a few posted in which he has shanshued.  (Although it is a sequel to a posted story, I have not posted my sequel to TTGB on the verse because Spike is human/slayer throughout the whole thing and that is a violation of the rules.)

There have been some wonderful fics written about Buffy and Spike at both ends of this non-vamp spectrum.  Legions of True Hearts,  Forward to Times Past and so forth have given the fandom wonderful pre-vampire Williams. However, in all of the ones I can think of, he is pre-vamped William and goes on to become Spike. 

There are now countless fics written since the show ended in which Spike is human, semi-human, a different kind of vamp, whatever it takes to present a good tale set after Chosen and/or NFA. Anaross has done some, as have others. (And then, there’s that elusive old wip that I raved about some time ago - the title of which I have forgotten again, dammit!). It’s a rich field to be mined by anyone with a good imagination.

 What I haven’t seen much of yet, is one in which Spike is a normal human male with some serious self-esteem issues about no longer being able to keep up with Buffy.  Fertile ground there for some angst, I would think…Someone did it recently with Buffy being the one to lose her powers, and it was very powerful and intriguing. 

I suspect that one of the reasons for the lack of human Spike fics is that we all like our big bad vampire, and no one really wants to read about him as an ordinary human man.  Even many of the AH fics have him larger than life in some way – very rich, very nasty, very nice, super sexy, superspy…whatever. He is still depicted very often as more than.

Anyway, the point of this ramble was to differentiate between fics set within a canon universe in which Spike is either not yet, or no longer, a vampire, and those in which he is a school teacher, superspy, rockstar, widower with three children, new boss, high school jock, etc, etc ad nauseum.    Those are not, and never will be, acceptable at the verse.  The others, at this point, are being judged on a case-by-case basis.  It may be that at some point we will have to add to the guidelines/rules to set just how much humanity is acceptable for our favorite vampire. ☺

So, what are your opinions about Spike as a human? How much humanity is acceptable to you in our favorite vampire?

I love the Buffy character, but Spike is usually more interesting that is so true, and i think it's that way becuase he had a much wider spectrum of emotions. i've seen alot of fics that talk about buffy being cut off from her emotions and that is more then true. while we did see her cry a few times in the show, in just one eps. some times, we would see more emotion from spike then we would in a whole season from buffy. and emotion makes people interesting. ex. when your upset about something and withdraw from people at work/home/school people that barely talk to you will ask you what's the matter. however on the note of how much humanity is too much...i think , as long as it was well write, complete humanity would be fine with me. one of the things that drew us all to spike in the first place was his humanity, he stank of it after all. spike was more human then most of the scoobies most of the time, and was revered for it. (by us, not them) i think a completely human spike(after having been vampire spike) would be just as interesting. now human william...maybe not so much, becuase while he did have so much hidden potential that was unlocked after he was dead, it could only BE unlocked becuase he died. had william been born in a different time, or even to different circumstances in life, he might have not been a big dweeb. beyond that, william, without the influence of buffy knowing of spike....pretty boring.
legen

True about Spike being more interesting because he is/was a vampire.  We all know WHAT they are--vampire and slayer.  But I was trying to make a list about WHO they are.  The list for Spike goes on and on: loves human food like Blooming Onions and mini-marshmallows, hard rock like the Ramones, fighting and violence, (but wants it to be a fair fight), poetry, the TV show Passions, poker, rides a motorcycle, is impatient and impulsive, sarcastic, likes testing his limits, sentimental, loyal friend and lover, etc.  Most of what makes him interesting to me is his Spike, not William persona. But when I went to list Buffy's characteristics, there isn't a lot of depth as a person: she was a fairly good big sister, not the greatest or most helpful of daughters, loves skimpy clothes and shoe shopping, dancing, ok student, loyal friend, quippy speech patterns...Her role of slayer is what makes her memorable...

In words without Spike as a vamp with all the color and texture he brings to a story and without Buffy as a slayer, you don't get a lot of great characterization.  (I know there are some human fanfics that are exceptions, but in general I think the parameters for posting stories on this site mean it has stronger fanfiction stories.)

Buffy's characteristics, there isn't a lot of depth as a person - so true.  I never thought about it, but Buffy isn't a very interesting person a lot of times.

Not surprisingly, my thoughts on AH fics and human Spike or non-Slayer Buffy are pretty much the same as yours.

What I haven’t seen much of yet, is one in which Spike is a normal human male with some serious self-esteem issues about no longer being able to keep up with Buffy.

Maybe because that plot line's already been done with Angel ("I Will Remember You" ) and Riley (season 5), and good writers wouldn't want to repeat the same story, and Spike fans who don't like Angel and/or Riley (i.e. most of them) wouldn't want to put Spike in the same category as them. Also, you could argue that it wouldn't be as big of an issue for Spike, since he tends to be attracted to women (and men, if you count Angel) who are more powerful than he is anyway. I think if he did have issues with being a normal human male, it would be more internal - he wouldn't like not being able to help people or get his rocks off killing things - not because he's comparing himself to Buffy.

Well, maybe  didn't word that well - I didn't mean just issues about keeping up with Buffy. The whole "going back to being William" thing. Which, I don't see Spike doing as he's got all those years of other experiences  to make him a different man; but  I can imagine him worrying about it.  And, now that I think of it, Herself has done one like that. I gave it a Slay Me Award.  Dumb of me not to remember.

I've seen a couple mentions/fics of left-as-human Spike struggling with being someone to be protected. It's been a while, but yeah, I've seen it covered, and pretty well, too. Angst fic, kinda.....he wasn't whiny, but there was an adjustment period for both of them, definitely.

CM

The whole "going back to being William" thing. Which, I don't see Spike doing as he's got all those years of other experiences to make him a different man; but I can imagine him worrying about it.
I think that since we are the sum of our memories, demon or no, Spike will still be Spike.  Um, Spike is William, but William is not Spike (if that makes sense).  With all of Spike's experiences and years, a good deal of William's fears can be assuaged.  But Spike--he loves the rush and the crunch.  I don't think being human would change his personality at all, but it would make him miserable to an extent.  But at the same time, Spike adapts quite easily.  What was it he said to Dawn--about it not mattering so much about how you started out (in Shanshued Spike's case--being a vampire), but what you do with it, yeah?

I really like the focus of your site - there are many other places that we can go to read many permutations of all the Buffyverse characters - but there are not that many that focus on one prime relationship and set parameters.  I think that this is probably seen as an benefit for your members - when we come to the BSV, we know that we will find works that center on Buffy and Spike in a relationship, either a good one or a very bad one, but it will be Spuffy. 

I personally never read AH works - my interest is these characters is as first introduced in the series - FF has given us wonderful variations and developments from the series - but the series is about vampires, slayers, demons, people that go into that magical and supernatural world and I want to read about  these characters that we so compelling to me within the setting of the supernatural.  It might be interesting to see how many of the members here read AH stories.  A human Spike or Angel that has been transformed by the Shanshu or other magical means, I think does fall within a believable variation of the series.   One example of a story that I read, and of course I cannot remember the title or author, I found extremely powerful and interesting because it deals with a transformed human Spike - but a Spike that absolutely hated what he had become and went into a suicidal spiral from it - but it is Spike with all the intensity that we saw in the series. 

I love my Spike vampy, powerful, super human, super emotional and super able to love - and I like him doing all these things with Buffy - thus your focused Spuffy site is perfect for me.  If I want to read normal humans, there are thousands of  great books and authors to choose from - so AH Buffy, not something that I ever read - think I have read a grand total of One in all my Buffyverse Fan Fiction experience and reading through a story that turned into Teen Dawn and Spike cured me of ever starting a work without first trying to find out the pairing or parameters the writer was going to present.

I didn't mean just issues about keeping up with Buffy. The whole "going back to being William" thing.
I can see the distinction, but I have to agree with Scarlet - I don't think Spike would do that. Look at how Darla reacted to becoming human - the transformation didn't really change her. She still felt and thought like the person she'd become after 400 years of being a vampire. With Angel's encouragement, she became sort of like a souled vampire, because even though she was human and had a second chance at life, she couldn't separate who she'd been from who she was now.

I imagine Spike would be the same way. Unless his memory was erased, and he really did turn back into William, he's still going to have the same personality that's developed over 120 years of being a vampire. Maybe before he shanshued, he might be apprehensive about whether he'd really be the same, but once he was human and realized he still felt the same as before, I think he'd be okay.

And I don't know that he'd even have such a big issue with it physically. True, he does like "the rush and the crunch," but then again, Willow and Anya were out there slaying (even before Willow's magic skills developed), and they were much more fragile than Spike would be. He might have to be more careful, since he's not as strong or as fast as he used to be, but he does have hundreds of years of fighting experience, so I think he'd be able to hold his own slaying with Buffy. (Besides, can't you just see him saying to Buffy, "Don't you dare baby me. If Xander bloody Harris can do this, I can do this."?)

He might have to be more careful, since he's not as strong or as fast as he used to be, but he does have hundreds of years of fighting experience, so I think he'd be able to hold his own slaying with Buffy. (Besides, can't you just see him saying to Buffy, "Don't you dare baby me. If Xander bloody Harris can do this, I can do this."?)
which is exactly why i never got why angel did what he did in...i want to say it was remember me, but the eps where he gave up being human. if xander and willow can do it, with no fighting experience and simple human strength, an ex vamp can do it.
Unless his memory was erased, and he really did turn back into William
even if that did happen, i don't think that he would ever be the william he was once intended to be. like i said before, the world's a much different place now then it was then. and given the right, or really any kind of encouragement, i'm sure he would land not far from his previous vampire persona.

I also sense that people on the site are more interested in Spike, in whatever condition, than Buffy. I love the Buffy character, but Spike is usually more interesting.

And we all know why *wink wink, nudge nudge* *licks lips* *pants like a dog*

which is exactly why i never got why angel did what he did in...i want to say it was remember me, but the eps where he gave up being human.
It was "I Will Remember You," and I'm sure you'd have no trouble finding plenty of people on this site who'd agree with you that Angel was an idiot for giving up being human. But it wasn't really the same situation - it wasn't just that Angel felt inferior or didn't think he could still fight demons as a human. It was about a specific threat - the Mohra demon said,  "A great darkness is coming... Together you were powerful. Alone, you are dead." The Oracles confirm this (as much as they ever give a straightforward answer about anything). One of Angel's reasons for asking to be turned back is so that he can protect Buffy, but the one that convinces the Oracles is this: "The Mohra demon came to take a warrior from your cause - and it succeeded.  I'm no good to you like this." Even if he kept fighting demons as a human, he'd definitely be able to accomplish more as a vampire. Spike never really cared about serving the Powers That Be, so I can't imagine him ever making that argument. He'd be just as happy providing back-up to Buffy as a human, even if he wasn't as effective as he used to be.

I'm not sure that Angel is being an idiot with his choices in IWRY - sometimes life requires that you make sacrifices - for a warrior, and Angel wanted to take on the role of The Champion.  From the perspective of a warrior fully committed to his duty and working for the greater good, it makes sense that he would choose to return to vampire state.  Vampires and stronger, better fighters, and can live and fight for much longer time span than humans - add to that his belief that Buffy was in danger - it fits his character that he would revert - even at the sacrifice of being together with her.  And one very important thing that is often not mentioned about their time together is from their loving making scene:


BUFFY: Angel? This is the first time I've ever really felt this way.

ANGEL: What way?

BUFFY: Just like I've always wanted to. Like a normal girl, falling asleep in the arms of her normal boyfriend. It's perfect.

As much as some would love the idea of Buffy+Ange Forever, I do give importance to what she is saying here - Buffy is still in so many ways at this stage of her life still a very young woman longing for a dream life that she is simply not going to have - The only way that Buffy can be "normal girl, normal happy wife-husband, normal boyfriend is to not be The Slayer. 

I do think it can be frustrating for a human Spike. He used to be so powerful, one punch can send someone flying, and now his body strength is average. It'll take time to adjust to his new condition, and then he'll have to rely on his fighting experience more than physical strength. He's an adaptable person, he'll get used to it in time.

Sure, Xander and Willow had fought vampires without superpowers, but they never knew what it's like to have them. I think it's not about Spike's capability at fighting as much as his incapability to separate between fighting with superpowers and fighting without. He'll throw a few lousy punches before he gets the hang of it.

I think it's not about Spike's capability at fighting as much as his incapability to separate between fighting with superpowers and fighting without.
Yes.  And Spike's very resourceful.  If there's something he can't physically fight at the moment, he, unlike the Scoobies, would be one of the first ones to set it on fire or something along those lines :P (as in "Bargaining I" ).  He knows you don't have to physically fight to win.

He knows you don't have to physically fight to win.
Actually, it seems like we get the exact opposite from Spike. When he's chipped (and therefore can't physically fight), he seems to completely lose his sense of self, and it's only regained when he discovers he can hit demons. Despite his protestations of still being evil, we hardly ever see him actually do anything evil. Setting things on fire is one of the classic examples of "Spike could've posed a threat even with the chip" - he could probably have set fire to all of Sunnydale without the chip going off, but he never did. Nor did he assemble a group of minions to do his hunting for him or come up with any other way of working around the chip. He may not have gone out of his way to help the Scoobies (except for money), but other than petty theft and his Yoko Factor manipulations (which were at Adam's behest), we never see him really trying to get around his physical limitations to be evil.

Buffy and the Scoobies, on the other hand, are the ones who've come up with such plans as the mirror to reflect the spell in "The Witch," the bat sonar in "Teacher's Pet," the rocket launcher, the wet toilet paper thing in "Homecoming," the holy water trick in "Helpless," Willow's ball of sunlight spell, the many different tricks to defeat Glory (Buffybot, Dagon sphere, wrecking ball), etc.

When he's chipped (and therefore can't physically fight), he seems to completely lose his sense of self, and it's only regained when he discovers he can hit demons.
This is true, but this is also a "lessons learned" Spike we're talking about.  He's known what it's like to feel helpless before.  He's a quick study, and he'd want to compensate for that loss of power.  His fists wouldn't pack nowhere near the same amount of power behind a punch, but he'd be able to punch.  In s4, he thought he was incapable of doing any kind of damage beyond words.  As a human, he'd be weaker, but not helpless.  With the experience of believing himself to be utterly helpless, and in addition to that, being in a wheelchair, I think that Spike would think beyond the realms of traditional fighting, like with the lighter (though not limited to setting things on fire--he's more creative than that).

he does have hundreds of years of fighting experience - and a hundred years of pulling tricks and being devious.  It was pretty disappointing to see "Evil" Spike lolling around his crypt sulking when he could have been running around causing trouble.  Sighs.

Arielle - you may have put your finger right on the pulse of Spike popularity and Buffy blase'.  Yum.