BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Bathroom Scene Offensive?

Apr 26 2009 04:13 pm   #1Scarlet Ibis
So the other thread--the "Did Buffy Commit Sexual Assault?" thread got derailed, which was to be expected.  And though I am one who tries to keep RL separate from the show, after reading those comments, I do have a question that kind of throws that out the window.  Just for now, though.

Was anyone particularly offended at the bathroom scene, in which Buffy is (very much unfairly in my opinion) portrayed as a weak and helpless victim for some reason, for nearly a minute, before miraculously "regaining" (well, finally utilizing after waiting) her strength?

For the record, in case it wasn't clear, yes, I was offended.  The only time Buffy was ever truly a victim was when Faith stole her body, and to try and make her a victim (the character for not moving for some reason that escapes me and the writers for writing her that way) was incredibly insulting to me as a woman with only average body strength, and my intelligence as a viewer for six years of watching the character be not only strong, but stronger than vampires.  And that's plural.

Yep, it was pretty much a "W.T.F?" moment for me, and I'm pretty sure my current icon is giving an appropriate facial expression for that.

ETA: Not to mention that average Joyce was able to stop him with a tap on the head, and average Willow with a lamp to the head.  You mean to tell me Buffy couldn't give him a punch in the face, as per usual, to tell him "no"?  That is in fact the only real way she conveyed "no" to him anyway.  Hurt back has got nothing to do with her arms or legs.  And still there's the whole "she's perfectly fine seconds later" thing, so I ain't, nor have I ever, bought that deplorable B.S.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Apr 26 2009 04:33 pm   #2Guest
I agree, but the only thing that I have a problem with is, that we do use RL to help base our opinions on what we see in the fictional world, whether we want to or not.  It still applies.  Otherwise, we are essentially robots if we don't.  It's human to use what we have learned and experienced to help base your answers.

I don't know how anyone can't often relate with televised shows to some certain extent.  They actually come from Real people.  This is what makes me bounds of giggles because some of that context put on screen is from real people using their imagination, their experiences, or what they have seen.  We all do it.  Their is no shame in that to use your own experiences or even other fiction or non fiction to base your opinions on.

I was offended.  They took a character of strength and twisted her not just in SR but the whole Season.  If you are going to use those types of arcs follow through. 

I agreed with you.  I like to ramble though so I may have brought my own opinions related on the matter than what the show entailed on that episode because truthfully I used the whole season for the basis of my reasons. 

Love the icon, although, my icon would have been more horrified and beyond puzzled if that is even possible, lol.

I personally had a hard time with that season period.  So yeah, my opinions are going to be slightly heated and on a personal level....I apologize for that...It wasn't easy for me to watch Season 6 and not be horrified and thoroughly upset by it.  I guess too much sprung memories to mind.  They did a real good job of showing power and control the whole season.  Just needed to follow through, writing-wise for the audience.

I did it again, lol.  I can't base just one episode but I agree with you.  It was rather offending.

EM.
Apr 26 2009 05:00 pm   #3Spikez_tart
I wasn't offended so much by Buffy not fighting back right away because I think that she loves and trusts Spike and is, for once, giving him the benefit of the doubt and not expecting him to try to hurt her.  The whole thing takes her by surprise.  I do think that Joss was full of beans on the whole girl power thing, which he turns on and off when it suits him, or maybe he (or the writers?) just doesn't believe in it so finds it difficult to keep up the pretense.

The real cop out was Buffy saying she had feelings for Spike.  What the hell is that supposed to mean?  She loves him, she knows it, he knows it and she's to chickensh*t to say so.  Maybe it took seeing Spike with Tarantula and Anya to make her realize how much she does care, but she surely knows how much she cares at this point. 

Sorry if I sidetracked.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 26 2009 05:26 pm   #4Guest
What is offensive to me is how they made Buffy so completely in the victim's role, bending her character and even making her say things beforehand that she never would have admitted before, as if to clearly state that Buffy wasn't at all in the wrong. They then compounded the problem afterwards by having Buffy be the innocent, wronged party and Spike the unforgivable abuser, even after he came back with the soul. They did have Xander soften towards Spike, but they completely bypassed explaining the situation of season six to any character, just shovign it under the carpet as 'Buffy isn't that way any more, so why think about it?'. The only time in season seven they had a conversation that didn't portray Buffy as totally blameless was when Spike was tied to the chair and told Buffy she'd been using him. No other character ever heard about that part. Don't they understand that they need to address such misunderstandings and reveal the real situation in full?
Apr 26 2009 05:30 pm   #5Guest
I wasn't offended by Buffy's inabliity to fight back because I knew the whole reason was because the writers stuck in the fact that she was hurt in a throwaway scene.  I'm sure that's how they justified it to themselves.

I WAS offended by the entire scene, however, because all of it from beginning to end was totally out of both their character's, and never should have happened in the first place, and was just a weak excuse to have Buffy have a "reason" to hate Spike and make him go and get a soul.  The end.

Coquine
Apr 26 2009 06:03 pm   #6Eowyn315
I was offended, but not because they made Buffy weak. I have no problem with that - I thought it was reasonably explained by her being injured and tired. My problem is with the way the writers constructed a scene in which viewers sympathize with the person committing sexual assault, and blame the victim for bringing it upon herself.

This has nothing to do with my feelings about the characters. I love Spike, I love Buffy, I loved them before this scene, before this whole season, and I continue to love them afterward. I think it was totally in character for Spike to do this, and I understand its role in both his character arc and their relationship arc. But I can't completely divorce my feelings about real life rape from TV, because like it or not, TV sends a message about the real world, and the message this scene sends is horrifying to anyone who cares about rape as an issue.

It sends the message that the victim deserved it, that she brought it on herself because of her past behavior. In fact, it even leads some people to believe that the victim isn't really a victim at all - despite being sexually assaulted - because this is merely "punishment" for her own actions. Nothing justifies rape, or attempted rape. Two wrongs don't make a right, so no matter what Buffy did, it doesn't make it okay for Spike to assault her.

It sends the message that the victim was asking for it, that she let this happen by saying "no" when she meant "yes" in previous sexual encounters. Again, that doesn't justify it. It doesn't matter how many times you've had sex with someone, you still have the right to refuse it at any time. It doesn't matter if you've said no and didn't mean it in the past - you still have the right to say no and mean it at any time.

It sends the message that a rapist will simply stop trying to rape you if you just fight back. I've seen people claim that Buffy actually wanted to be attacked because she didn't fight back right away, which is a horrifying and damaging read of the scene. In reality, a lot of women don't fight back; they freeze up either out of shock or fear, especially if it's a situation where someone they knew and trusted is violating that trust. Sometimes they can't even believe it's happening, or they disassociate themselves from the event to cope. The fact is, it doesn't matter how the victim reacts. Whether they fight back or not doesn't make it any less of a crime. The fact that Spike stops once Buffy kicks him across the room completely undermines that, and is a horribly inaccurate portrayal of a typical rape.

That's what offends me. Not that a supposedly strong woman is shown as a helpless victim, because the truth is, anyone can be made a victim. In fact, if they'd done it properly, Buffy could have been a role model for rape victims to look up to - to help them realize it's not their fault, it's not anything they did to become a victim, that it can happen to anyone, even a superhero.

But they didn't do it properly. They took every damaging stereotype about rape and rape victims and included it in this scene. All of the messages this scene sends? They're all the things people say to justify rape and blame the victim. But we're not supposed to think about it that way because it's just a TV show, and you can't compare it to the real world? Well, this show has always been about commentary on the real world, and if this is ME's commentary on rape, I find it incredibly damaging, and that's what offends me.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 26 2009 06:17 pm   #7Scarlet Ibis
and is a horribly inaccurate portrayal of a typical rape.
That is something that I agree with, and is also why I would never compare this scene to RL or as a commentary on RL.  The scene was clearly a contrivance on the writers' part to absolve Buffy for everything else that occurred beforehand, and was handled in the most stupid of ways.  If they were going to go that route, they should have damn well did it right and in character.  They didn't.  That scene was made of FAIL, and I don't buy "Buffy the victim" in the least.  

ETA: I don't feel that we the audience should be strong armed into feeling sympathetic for something the writers attempted to achieve and didn't succeed at.  Not to mention it was a complete and utter one eighty on everything else we have ever seen in regards to the character of Buffy--Buffy is strong, Buffy is not a victim, even if she's beat she doesn't beg and cry, and Buffy's been running Spike all season long.  I don't see why the viewer should blatantly disregard everything and sympathize with Buffy by default just because she's a woman and we're supposed to look at it a certain way because of that, even though that scene was one of the most overt deus ex machinas in the series.  Again, wtfness right there.  I call bullshit and shenanigans--two times.
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Apr 26 2009 06:48 pm   #8Eowyn315
The scene was clearly a contrivance on the writers' part to absolve Buffy for everything else that occurred beforehand
I disagree, for a few reasons. One is simply hope that they're not that simple-minded - as I said before, two wrongs don't make a right, and that goes both ways. Buffy's previous bad behavior doesn't justify Spike's actions in this scene. But equally, Spike's actions don't make Buffy's previous behavior okay. They're still both wrong.

Second, I honestly don't think they recognized that Buffy's behavior was seen as needing to be absolved. If they did, I think there would have been some acknowledgment of that. My impression is that the writers see Buffy as tragic, not reprehensible - she's in a deep depression and does what she does out of self-loathing and pain, therefore all she needs for absolution is to get better. Instead, I think this scene is solely about Spike getting a soul, and the writers needing him to make a horribly wrong judgment call that makes him realize he needs the soul.

Third, it's obvious from various commentary that this scene was essentially written from the perspective of the attacker. Marti Noxon has said that she was in Spike's position in a real life situation, and this scene came from that experience, but with the genders reversed. I certainly don't see Marti condemning herself in this scene - quite the opposite, in fact, as evidenced by all the viewers who refuse to see Spike as even being partially at fault here. As I said above, everything about the set-up of the scene screams justification for the assault.

(Feel free to make any jokes at this point regarding Marti Noxon needing a soul.)

I don't buy "Buffy the victim" in the least.
At all, or just in this scene? I personally don't have a problem with a contrivance to make her weaker - it's certainly not the only time writers have used a contrivance to fix something in order to make a scene work - but everyone's level of suspension of disbelief is different.

I do have an issue with saying that Buffy can never be the victim, simply because she's the hero (and also a superhero). Buffy has often been made a victim - by Angelus, by Giles in "Helpless," and by the Trio in "Normal Again," just to give a few examples. It's not about whether she's a victim; it's about how she handles it. (And that doesn't mean while the attack is happening, because as I said, it doesn't matter if a rape victim fights back. I'm talking about what she does afterward, after the attack. Does she let it break her, or does she recover and reclaim her life?) I don't want a hero who's invincible; that's not interesting.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 26 2009 08:12 pm   #9Scarlet Ibis
Feel free to make any jokes at this point regarding Marti Noxon needing a soul.
Pfft.  For starters.

<--cannot stand Maudlin Noxious.

But equally, Spike's actions don't make Buffy's previous behavior okay.
I hear you saying it, and I get that.  But that isn't what it seemed the writers were doing.  They tried villainize Spike at least three times in ridiculous scenarios--making him an "arms dealer" with no phone, sex with Anya when they were both single, and then this scene.  Not to mention that Buffy's previous behavior is hardly addressed if ever, and when it is, it is nowhere on the level in which Spike's is.  They tried to buy her back for the audience in AYW, and it didn't work, so we were left with this, and for me, it still didn't work.  The fact of the matter is, I, like many of the viewers, cannot be bought in such a manner.  They didn't earn the right for the character.  If I go to a restaurant, order a meal, and the server screws up my order, and doesn't even attempt to fix it, am I really stupid enough to leave a tip?  No.  If I write a paper for class, and it missed all of the main points of the topic, is the teacher going to give me a good grade and a pat on the back for the effort?  No.  What they attempted to do is not what they did do.  And absolutely no brownie points for trying it half assed.

At all, or just in this scene? I personally don't have a problem with a contrivance to make her weaker - it's certainly not the only time writers have used a contrivance to fix something in order to make a scene work - but everyone's level of suspension of disbelief is different.
I never said at all--just this scene.  It represented the anti-Buffy.  No one ever said she was invincible, but this was not Buffy.  Hell, this was not even Willow.  Please allow me to quote my ETA from this post:

ETA: Not to mention that average Joyce was able to stop him with a tap on the head, and average Willow with a lamp to the head. You mean to tell me Buffy couldn't give him a punch in the face, as per usual, to tell him "no"? That is in fact the only real way she conveyed "no" to him anyway. Hurt back has got nothing to do with her arms or legs. And still there's the whole "she's perfectly fine seconds later" thing, so I ain't, nor have I ever, bought that deplorable B.S.

You can't have her be hurt long enough to cry and beg (which she doesn't do, which even Willow didn't do in s4, the crying and begging anyway, sans slayer strength.  And yeah, I'm aware he wasn't going to rape her, he was still holding her down, planning to penetrate with his fangs and possibly turn her, which in some respects, may even be scarier), and then all of a sudden--Bam!  She's right as rain again.  That's retarded.  Like I said, if she was really disabled, she damn sure better be really disabled, and not just long enough to go to commercial break.  She wasn't hurt. If she had been, she wouldn't have been able to shove him all the way to the other side of the room at all, and then hop up, back perfectly fine, to ask him rhetorically why she didn't love him (that was the writers right there, whispering "See?  He isn't worthy.  Dirty and unclean Spike had it all coming to him." ).  This was a thin veil to gain the audience's sympathy.  Not to mention she is incredibly stronger than him.  It's not that she can't be a victim, but to force her to be one in a section where she clearly would not be is a betrayal to her character, and a huge disservice to the audience.
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Apr 26 2009 09:33 pm   #10Eowyn315
They tried villainize Spike at least three times in ridiculous scenarios--making him an "arms dealer" with no phone, sex with Anya when they were both single, and then this scene. Not to mention that Buffy's previous behavior is hardly addressed if ever, and when it is, it is nowhere on the level in which Spike's is.
It seems like you're making it either-or, like there has to be a good guy and a bad guy, so if they're making Spike out to be more villainous, it automatically makes Buffy less so. It doesn't work that way - there's no conservation of wrongness. I agree with you that they were trying to make Spike more of a villain, because he was supposed to be the "bad boyfriend" and they were working toward him getting a soul, but that's about Spike. I don't see how that translates to "buying back" Buffy. As I said in my previous post, I don't think they were trying to buy her back, because I don't think they realized there was anything that needed to be bought. Yes, Buffy made bad decisions, and breaking up with Spike in "As You Were" was supposed to be a good decision, a step in the right direction, but I don't think we're ever supposed to see Buffy as the villain. I'm sure some people do, but the writers didn't seem to.

As for Buffy's injury and fighting back, this isn't the first time we've seen Buffy bested by a vampire she ought to be able to beat. "Fool For Love" is the first example that comes to mind, and I think that shows that a lot of it is about Buffy's mindset. It's not that she has a debilitating injury and then suddenly she's fine again - it's that she was injured and tired, and all she wanted to do was soak away her aches in a hot bath. She wasn't prepared for a physical confrontation. She wasn't expecting anyone to invade her inner sanctum (I have serious issues with not only Spike, but Xander and Willow all just bursting into her frickin' bathroom without the courtesy of knocking. Have these people never heard of privacy?), and she certainly wasn't expecting Spike to attack her the way he did. Spike, who claims to love her, who promised he'd never hurt her.

I've seen this scene compared to "The Pack" and seen it said, "She fought back then. Why wouldn't she react that way here?" And the difference is, she already knew something was wrong with Xander. She suspected he was possessed, so she was cautious and prepared to fight him when the confrontation occurred. She was also able to distance herself from the fact that it was her friend, because it really wasn't - he was possessed. It's a completely different mindset than "Seeing Red."

This isn't the first time we've seen Buffy unable to fight back when she needed to. She wasn't able to kill Angelus when she had the chance in "Innocence," and she completely shut down when Glory took Dawn. This isn't just a physical attack; it's an emotional betrayal, and so it's not unusual for Buffy to be unable to react right away. It's horribly shocking and upsetting, and I'm sure there's even a little disbelief at work here - a "this can't be happening" reaction.

I would agree with you that the sequence is longer than necessary, and artificially extended by the commercial break, but I think the reason for that is because they wanted it to be horrifying - not just to the audience, but to Spike. If Buffy had kicked him across the room before he really did anything, then it wouldn't be so appalling to him that he had to go get a soul.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 26 2009 10:12 pm   #11nmcil

Third, it's obvious from various commentary that this scene was essentially written from the perspective of the attacker. Marti Noxon has said that she was in Spike's position in a real life situation, and this scene came from that experience, but with the genders reversed. I certainly don't see Marti condemning herself in this scene - quite the opposite, in fact, as evidenced by all the viewers who refuse to see Spike as even being partially at fault here. As I said above, everything about the set-up of the scene screams justification for the assault.

Here is one of the really big problems that becomes vital to the interpretations from viewers - Someone mentions in a previous discussions that we, the viewers, were shown all that precedes this ultimate and tragic emotional and psychological melt-down from this relationship. We are not viewing an attempted rape scene without prior knowledge of the circumstances. We have all been presented with the brutality of Buffy's attack in the alley and we saw Spike take everything upon himself without retaliation of attempt at self-defense. I think we can safely say that every viewer was horrified at what the heroine/female/attacker and her victim experienced in that scene. This scene has become an indelible imprint on our consciousness and history with the characters – it is a ugly horrifying darkness look into what that character has done. That Buffy is sublimating her own pain, suffering, chaos, self-loathing, etc. etc. etc on Spike also has become the history that viewers have seen.

We go now to the same horrifying and violent attack scenario, this time with Spike as the perpetrator. Again, we have all seen and have knowledge of his history with this his counterpart – both willing participants, both contributors in their destructive relationship. The viewers have been witness to all that comes before "Seeing Red." I firmly believe that this "witnessing" makes a huge difference in how the viewers understand and interpret the attempted rape. We are not allowed to make judgements separate from everything that comes before – all the ugly and primal violence and darkness, and just as importantly, all the love and corruption of love and pain and self-identity that is vital in their relationship. It would be easier to place blame or accept Spike as taking all the responsibility and blame without having all our prior knowledge, unfortunately we do have it.

It is not an important issue for me if Buffy could have easily defended herself against Spike – we all know that she has the strength to do so. What is important is all the ugly and indelible imprint on my mind of all that comes before. What I see, and knowing that Marti Noxon has taken from Real Life, makes it even more important to my interpretation, is all the horrors that both Buffy and Spike have committed against each other and what suffering and desperation can make people do.

I can’t be offended or understand or make any conclusion about his attempted rape of Buffy or Buffy being a victim because she and Spike, are equally responsible and equally to blame. I know that it would be easier for me to fall back on the legal questions – Spike tried to rape her, Buffy is an attempted rape victim.

That the writers totally skewed the parameters of what The Slayer could do to her attacker, how a Slayer could always defended herself when they fought was a total deviation from the history of their character. That they had Spike attacking the woman he loved, one whom he had willingly sacrifice himself to her brutal attack out of love and devotion was another very questionable plot device.

Was I offended by Buffy as victim – Was I offended by Spike as attempted rapist? My answer is an emphatic NO. NOT because I blame Buffy or because I want to exonerate Spike but because I try to understand their actions not as ONE PART, but as PART of Their Whole.

I blame the writers not for making this episode so horrific for all the viewers, but for never, as some one posted, following through with all the ugly and complex explorations and attempted answers for where they took the primary Hero/Heroine Model. Spike was at least given his great soul wrenching episode and some resolution in his powerful "church and cross scene" in Beneath You – Buffy is never given a powerful or honest resolution to all her sins and trauma from Season Six. Make no mistake, I don’t say she is never given back her Hero/Heroine status or that she does not become the positive force in Spike’s life again, she clearly does. But I don’t think the writers ever cleanse her history and life with Spike from season six.

THIS is what I am offended by – to have left all this powerful thematic material and complex story, both from real life and from their Buffy-Spike relationship with so many unanswered questions. To have used such a horrendous and provocative subject as rape, without the demanded honest treatment and in depth study for the characters was one of the most questionable plot devices ever in the series.

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Apr 26 2009 11:27 pm   #12Guest
I blame the writers not for making this episode so horrific for all the viewers, but for never, as some one posted, following through with all the ugly and complex explorations and attempted answers for where they took the primary Hero/Heroine Model. Spike was at least given his great soul wrenching episode and some resolution in his powerful "church and cross scene" in Beneath You – Buffy is never given a powerful or honest resolution to all her sins and trauma from Season Six. Make no mistake, I don’t say she is never given back her Hero/Heroine status or that she does not become the positive force in Spike’s life again, she clearly does. But I don’t think the writers ever cleanse her history and life with Spike from season six. THIS is what I am offended by – to have left all this powerful thematic material and complex story, both from real life and from their Buffy-Spike relationship with so many unanswered questions. To have used such a horrendous and provocative subject as rape, without the demanded honest treatment and in depth study for the characters was one of the most questionable plot devices ever in the series.

There endeth the lesson people.  Well said!  I agree they both had a hand (literally) in their hurtful 'relationship'. 

But I can't completely divorce my feelings about real life rape from TV, because like it or not, TV sends a message about the real world, and the message this scene sends is horrifying to anyone who cares about rape as an issue.

As much as television tries it will never do justice on an actual rape or attempted.  They are actors.  I simply yawn when I see this because they don't really know.  Its all based on what they have heard and assumptions.  Even stories that are depicted from Real Life individuals know that there is no way the televised or movie will depict how the felt.  There is more to it than what is shown.  TV can send a message but it can't help you.

This scene was horrifying to me because it was poorly done.  I saw an issue forced on one being because like it or not when you are in love and things are devastatingly taken out of your hands you react.  You react in ways that you would never do...Spike was OOC.  He is an in your face vampire.  Rape was not his thing and you basically state this was in character for him.  I didn't see it this way at all.

You basically said that two wrongs don't make it right.  Well, sure, that is true but to an extent.  You have a child raped at an early age go out and do the exact same thing later on in life because they weren't taught differently.  Buffy taught him this was ok.  Basically, you have condemned those who were victims once and now are the perps themselves.  Where do you think it stems from?

That's why I can't agree on some level with your reasoning because then you have to look at Wrecked and the Alley.  It was completely two to tango.  They were both equally wrong.  Honestly, sure Spike was soulless but she started the downfall she never should have embarked on.  I LOVED their tentative relationship when she was resurrected. 

The writers had to destroy that.

EM
Apr 27 2009 12:32 am   #13Eowyn315
The viewers have been witness to all that comes before "Seeing Red." I firmly believe that this "witnessing" makes a huge difference in how the viewers understand and interpret the attempted rape. We are not allowed to make judgements separate from everything that comes before – all the ugly and primal violence and darkness, and just as importantly, all the love and corruption of love and pain and self-identity that is vital in their relationship.
Well, I think it does and it doesn't make a difference, nmcil. I agree with you that in the scope of their entire relationship, both have done horrible things to each other, and both are at fault for their own actions. But I can't say that Buffy is wholly or partly to blame for the attempted rape, because Spike is the only one who can control his actions. Nothing that came before justifies the attempted rape, but by knowing the whole story, we can understand why he did it and forgive him. (Likewise, knowing what Buffy was going through, I can forgive her for the alley beating.) I think that's an important distinction between assigning blame or fault to the characters and understanding and accepting their actions. That's why I'm able to say, as I did in my previous post, that I still love both characters, in spite of their flaws and faults and all the horrible things they did in this season - not because I don't blame them for doing it, but because I can forgive them.

TV can send a message but it can't help you.
I'd say TV can help you, if the number of fans who profess that "Buffy changed my life" are any indication. Showing positive role models on TV is encouraging. But I'm more concerned about the negative messages TV sends, in this case by promoting the stereotypes that justify rape and blame the victim.

Spike was OOC. He is an in your face vampire. Rape was not his thing and you basically state this was in character for him. I didn't see it this way at all.
Yes, I do think it was in character. It is definitely in character for Spike to insist Buffy loves him - he's been doing it all season. It's also in character for Spike to get very worked up (especially when he's drunk), make poor or irrational decisions, and to do unnecessarily violent things (like, say, kidnapping Willow to do a spell for him, or chaining Buffy up to declare his love). I can easily see that leading to a situation where he's absolutely convinced himself that Buffy loves him, and the only way to get her to admit it is to force her to. I'm sure he didn't set out thinking, "I'll rape Buffy, and THEN she'll love me." But I do think he thought he could get what he wanted from her if he just pushed her hard enough - and his judgment was fatally flawed.

You have a child raped at an early age go out and do the exact same thing later on in life because they weren't taught differently. Buffy taught him this was ok.
Isn't that exactly what I was saying in my earlier post? Buffy abused Spike, and then Spike attempted to rape her. So by condoning Spike's actions, we say it's okay to abuse someone else if you were abused - which is exactly what I said was wrong with the argument that Buffy brought it on herself or viewing the attempted rape as "punishment" for Buffy's own actions. But the thing is - Spike's actions don't say it's okay, because Spike knows it's wrong and goes to get a soul to fix it. It would be nice if Buffy had shown more remorse for her actions, but I don't see how that perpetuates a cycle of abuse - she didn't do what she did because she was abused.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 27 2009 12:46 am   #14Scarlet Ibis
she didn't do what she did because she was abused.
I think the point was Spike did what he did because he was abused (by Buffy).  If we were to take apart "Smashed" piece by piece, and then put it in reverse, it wouldn't have worked.  There's no way it would have been okay if Spike just went from punching to kissing Buffy to ripping off her panties and thrusting inside of her--no way.

I agree with you that they were trying to make Spike more of a villain, because he was supposed to be the "bad boyfriend" and they were working toward him getting a soul, but that's about Spike.

No, it's about Buffy too.  Why spend all that time trying to bring him down and make him look bad if he wasn't being compared so heavily to Buffy?  They needed to bring him down in order to bring her up, and they mucked it up, cause it didn't work.  There are so many various scenarios in which Spike could have gone and got a soul that did not involve him being "the big bad boyfriend."  Hell, he could have left to get one after AYW.  But no--audience still wasn't fully on Buffy's side yet.  The only reason they did that, purposely designed SR that way was to make Buffy look shiney again, which is utter bull.  They were totally trying to buy sympathy for her.  If Buffy were so tired (yawn), why not have said to Spike, "We can talk--just give me a minute.  I'll meet you downstairs."  Why bother engaging in a conversation with him, etc.?

And having her be tired or out of sorts or whatever is still not a reason to have her crying and begging, when she knows she stronger than him, and could have dispatched him so easily, or gotten her "no" through to him with a typical--yes typical--punch in the nose.  "Stop."  "Make me."  "Okay."  *punch*  That was the normal dance for them.  When people talk about Spike being "trained," that's what they mean.  When she wanted Spike to go away, she would hit him, usually in the face, and he got the message clear.  Because that's how Buffy communicated with him--not with words--with violence and sex--that's the bar she set. 

But like I said, the scene was purposely designed to gain sympathy for Buffy, and to absolve her of all of her previous dealings with Spike which most certainly did not cast her in a good light.  How the hell else were they going to give Buffy a modicum of the moral high grown if they hadn't (attempted) to make Spike look so awful?  They still didn't, with me.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Apr 27 2009 01:07 am   #15Eowyn315
I think the point was Spike did what he did because he was abused (by Buffy).
Right - but as I said, it's made pretty clear that what Spike did is NOT okay, considering how horrified he is, and the fact that he goes to Africa to get a soul, and that the emphasis of their s7 reunion is that Spike needs to make amends to Buffy. I don't think it sends the message at all that it's okay to abuse someone because you've been abused. I could maybe see the point if it were Buffy making it seem like abuse is okay, since she doesn't see many consequences for her actions, but that has nothing to do with a cycle.

They needed to bring him down in order to bring her up, and they mucked it up, cause it didn't work.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

If Buffy were so tired (yawn), why not have said to Spike, "We can talk--just give me a minute. I'll meet you downstairs."  Why bother engaging in a conversation with him, etc.?
Actually, she tells him to leave more than once, it's clear she doesn't want to talk, but he continues to do it anyway. I think she realized that Spike wasn't going to leave her alone unless she let him say what he wanted to say.

When people talk about Spike being "trained," that's what they mean. When she wanted Spike to go away, she would hit him, usually in the face, and he got the message clear.
Sorry, but I just don't buy that Spike heard her begging and crying and didn't think she meant it until she kicked him. Honestly, I think at that point, it didn't matter what she said, he wasn't listening, but it's plainly obvious to anyone with eyes that she's not playing around. It shouldn't require violence to get the message across.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 27 2009 01:14 am   #16Scarlet Ibis
It shouldn't require violence to get the message across.
Someone should have told that to Buffy.

But yeah--agree to disagree, yada yada yada.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Apr 27 2009 03:06 am   #17Guest
Sorry, but I just don't buy that Spike heard her begging and crying and didn't think she meant it until she kicked him. Honestly, I think at that point, it didn't matter what she said, he wasn't listening, but it's plainly obvious to anyone with eyes that she's not playing around. It shouldn't require violence to get the message across.

Uh uh no way...He dissociated!!!!   It was like he was there but not there.  He was totally not hearing her at this point.  He was so far gone that until that moment she kicked him did it finally kick in how far he was going.  She always hit him in the nose to get her point.  So I'm not buying that weak helpless Buffy act.

Like Scarlett says

No, it's about Buffy too. Why spend all that time trying to bring him down and make him look bad if he wasn't being compared so heavily to Buffy? They needed to bring him down in order to bring her up, and they mucked it up, cause it didn't work.

I agree with this 100%

EM
Apr 27 2009 03:11 am   #18Guest
Even my old therapist and I talked about that scene in great deal of context and she too felt there was a very fine line of what that scene could have been called.  To her she saw two extremely distraught and hell of a lot of baggage with two individuals.

This is going to be one of those things that make people agree to disagree.  It is actually making me wonder if people are truly Spuffy shippers or do they ship individual characters.  God this woman and I could talk hours about all the psychological problems that were BTVS.  Sad really.

EM
Apr 27 2009 04:54 am   #19nmcil
Well, I think it does and it doesn't make a difference, nmcil. I agree with you that in the scope of their entire relationship, both have done horrible things to each other, and both are at fault for their own actions. But I can't say that Buffy is wholly or partly to blame for the attempted rape, because Spike is the only one who can control his actions. Nothing that came before justifies the attempted rape, but by knowing the whole story, we can understand why he did it and forgive him. (Likewise, knowing what Buffy was going through, I can forgive her for the alley beating.) I think that's an important distinction between assigning blame or fault to the characters and understanding and accepting their actions. That's why I'm able to say, as I did in my previous post, that I still love both characters, in spite of their flaws and faults and all the horrible things they did in this season - not because I don't blame them for doing it, but because I can forgive them.

Understand and Forgive - this is where much of the disagreements about what happens in "Seeing Red"  comes into play.  Sometimes this "understanding" for what Spike does is taken as an "acceptance" for his attempted rape which is very different than "understanding."  I may understand what happens to him, that the path both have walked leads them to this tragic end - that does not in anyway mean that I condone what he did nor do I suggest that Buffy had it coming to her - I don't think anyone here has suggested that.  One thing that we probably will differ on is that I don't think he was actually in total control of what he was doing - I do believe that after a certain point he does go into a complete psychological and emotional breakdown.  Again, I don't offer this as a way to exonerate his actions, but from my perspective it is an important condition of his violence.   For a great many viewers, there will never be a condition where Spike is not seen as completely or solely responsible for the bathroom attack.  Each viewer will have their own judgement on the attempted rape, how much each character was to blame or how their history contributed to  their ultimate tragic end at SR.   I too can forgive Spike because I can totally empathize with the conditions that lead both of them to that bathroom seen. The attempted rape and his emotional breakdown was the price Spike paid for all his love and great capacity to love; it is again the mirror world style; love turned to desperation and violence and hopelessness, that the writers used so many times.  It is also, and again each of us makes their own judgement, the price that Buffy paid for using him. 

The context of the story and character treatment was such that viewers were placed in a very difficult position - I'm afraid that this will always be one of those issues with the series that viewers will always see differently.  It's the same like the cases from real life where women are abused repeatedly by a male and ultimately become so desperate and filled with pain and fear that they kill the abuser.  Some people will say that she is a murderer, that she had the power to take herself out of the situation but did not, that she is responsible from her own lack of action.  Another person will see a woman that is the victim of horrible abuse, that has finally broken down to the point where her sanity and will has lost all ability of control and she kills.  Is that woman a murderer, is she responsible or contributor because she did not leave ? How do we judge or place responsibility and blame with this scenario?  Is the tragic outcome in SR  Spike's fault because he could have taken himself away at anytime - Is it Buffy's fault for repeatedly using him as her sex/self-loathing/sublimation/escape? 

Every viewer will come to their own interpretation and judgements - my judgement is that the writers tried to have it both ways.  The treatment of Spike and Buffy in Season Six became the ultimate "Have Your Cake and Eat It too."    They created a Spike that had clearly changed and had committed great acts of sacrifice and devotion for Buffy out of a great love, They also created and transformed Buffy into a seriously disturbed young woman and failed Hero/Heroine role model but this model  was still suppose to function as the higher ground moral standard barer.  The combined parts were ultimately just too strained and within the context of their resolution; one of the worst acts men and women commit against each other, it worked havoc on their characters and the audience as well.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 27 2009 06:54 am   #20Guest
Wow, just amazingly well said.  That deserves a standing ovation because you took it to a neutral grounds and that is rarely done.

I too wasn't aiming only the blame on Buffy but I stick to what I have learned.  She taught him while he went along.  I don't know why but the saying Do unto others as others do unto you, keeps springing to mind.  To me it fits how Spike wove himself into their group.  Almost like a leech.  He truly fed off them all and not in a vampire sense.  Just my opinion. 

I think that what you said nmcil sums it up...This topic will just have too many views in regards to it.  There is no wrong answer, but others will definitely feel very opinionated in regards to it.  You actually brought tears to my eyes with a well thought out piece.  Kudos.

EM
Apr 27 2009 08:07 pm   #21Eowyn315
I may understand what happens to him, that the path both have walked leads them to this tragic end - that does not in anyway mean that I condone what he did nor do I suggest that Buffy had it coming to her - I don't think anyone here has suggested that.
Well, I do recall that was suggested on the other thread - comments saying Buffy deserved it, that it was punishment for what she'd done to Spike, etc. - which was what brought me into the discussion in the first place, but you and I are in agreement here about understanding vs. condoning.

One thing that we probably will differ on is that I don't think he was actually in total control of what he was doing - I do believe that after a certain point he does go into a complete psychological and emotional breakdown.
Again - agreed. My point in saying that only Spike can control his actions is more to say that no one forced Spike to do what he did. There's more than one way to react to any situation, and Buffy can't be held responsible that Spike pursued a confrontation where he would lose control and act violently rather than, for example, leaving the room when she asked him to and having the conversation later when they were both prepared to talk.

It's the same like the cases from real life where women are abused repeatedly by a male and ultimately become so desperate and filled with pain and fear that they kill the abuser.
I understand the sentiment here, but I think there IS a difference. You can kill someone by accident or in self-defense, and if there was evidence that the person had been abusing you, there's a good chance it would be considered self-defense in court. But you can't rape someone in self-defense. If Spike had hit Buffy, either to defend himself or out of anger at how she treated him, that would be a different story, but that's not what happened.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 01 2009 03:10 pm   #22evangelin
Well, I do recall that was suggested on the other thread - comments saying Buffy deserved it, that it was punishment for what she'd done to Spike, etc.

I would say that's me!

Yes, I DO think that Buffy deserves punishment. I do NOT think that she deserves to be raped, she simply doesn't (At first I wrote NOONE does but then I thought better of it. You can't tell me that there aren't sick bastards that deserve everything that can be dished!) I was pointing out that there were reasons behind what Spike did and not the simple fact that he's a monster!

I think that we can't talk about Seeing Red as another universe! What happens after it is part of the story, too and what happens after is Spike making amends and Buffy not, so I'm sure that she wasn't the better or the purer of the two in that situation.
Spike gets all the abuse, all season. Buffy gets a taste and he's the monster. NO! She is the monster. Yes, Spike is a vamp. Yes, Spike can't control himself sometimes. Yes, Spike doesn't back off or give up. But Buffy is the monster in season 6. Just watch Dead Things and As You Were again, dammit!

Buffy is messed up all season, poor Buffy. Well, Spike was messed up for two minutes. Two minutes that will rule his dreams forever while Buffy won't have a second thought about what she did to him EVER! Why? Because where Buffy feels justified(even while talking to Tara she tries to justify herself by saying that she's all wrong and blah, blah, blah), Spike does not. There's the Big difference. They say that when you feel guilty for a crime it's a half crime. Spike's was a half crime in the first place so...what's left?

I don't say I approve or understand SR. Spike's never been in this things, at least in my opinion and I don't get why they did the bathroom scene expect...yeah, to clean Buffy's hands and to make Spike get a soul. Well, we all know that it didn't work with Buffy as for Spike-I love the guy anyway they dish him! The point is that you can't say "Spike tried to rape Buffy, Spike's evil!" It doesn't work like that, it's a lot more complicated. You can say "Spike did wrong he has to fix it!" but then he DID fix it, didn't he? Only all he got was Buffy's ungrateful bitchiness! Well, that's not fair! I always feel the need to defend guys who are acused for something that's ALMOST wholy the girl's fault. It's tricky. Girls are weak and helpless and sweet and yada, yada, yada. Well, no, not all girls are like that, and Buffy definitely isn't!

As for the question! Yes, I feel offended. I feel offended that they didn't pair up Spike and Buffy against Willow and started fixing their relationship. I'm offended that they made Spike do something that I couldn't see him doing, especially to Buffy. I feel offended that they tried to fix what Buffy did so easily. I feel offended that they put Buffy on that bathroom floor because though she was a bitch all season, she really went through a lot and didn't need that too! Yeah, I feel offended a lot!

P.S. Damn, I promised myself not to take part in this but I just couldn't help myself!
May 01 2009 03:41 pm   #23nmcil
P.S. Damn, I promised myself not to take part in this but I just couldn't help myself!

Well - I am glad that you did - seeing what other people think and discussing all these different ideas is what makes a thread interesting -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 21 2009 11:06 am   #24spikes_wish
I always feel the need to defend guys who are acused for something that's ALMOST wholy the girl's fault

It was wholly Spike's fault- the same way the alley scene was wholly Buffy's fault- it doesn't matter that they pushed each other emotionally and physically into a destructive place, at the end of the day, we are all responsible for our own actions.

And unfortunately, RL is always going to play into these situations- especially as Joss says that the whole metaphor for the Big Bad this season is Real Life. So the writers had a responsibility to make sure the viewers were able to relate to their inner demons, and do so responsibly- all TV shows have a responsibility to do this, they are creating role models for young people to aspire to whether they like it or not. I mean, they pulled Earshot off the air after a school shooting, despite the fact that the episode has a very positive message in regards to this subject and would probably have been a good episode to show after the tragedy to help people understand why it happened.

In British Soaps, when dealing with a particularly difficult subject (e.g. rape, mental health etc), it will supply a help line at the end of the show for those people whom might relate to the issues, and want to seek advice about it.

So whether or not a TV show has superheroes or market stall workers, they still have a responsibility to their viewers to send the right messages, especially in Cult TV, in which some people dedicate large portions of their lives to following, and look up to characters like Buffy and Spike.

Yes, I feel offended. I feel offended that they didn't pair up Spike and Buffy against Willow and started fixing their relationship

I think I would have been offended more if this had occurred- despite their past, it would send an apalling message- think of all the battered women who go running back to their abusive partners- in a way that would be condoning it. We'd seen enough of that previously in the season, with Spike running back to Buffy constantly. But despite my love for Spike, this would almost be worse, as Buffy is supposed to be the role model for the show, supposedly the embodiment of 'women empowerment' (rolls eyes), and they have spent the season trying to make her the good guy.

Whether or not I think they achived this is a different matter, but to send the 'role model' back to a partner who had been abusive is an awful message to send.

Only all he got was Buffy's ungrateful bitchiness

Gotta disagree there- the only time Buffy came across as ungrateful after she found out about the soul was in the shadow puppets episode, where she tells him she needs 'the spike whose dangerous' and I don't get the impression she enjoyed doing what she did (she'd clearly been shoving the "It's not enough" thoughts to the back of her mind), but after Chloe killed herself, she was pushed to do it. And it needed saying- it wasn't about the Spike she wanted, or cared about, or trusted, it was about the Spike she needed in order to win the battle. A Spike we know she despises and is wary, if not scared of. And 2bh, it helps Spike a lot- one of my favourite incarnations of Spike (the one of Season 5 Angel), would probably not exist if it weren't for Buffy's rousing speech. I personally prefer the Spike who revels in a good fight rather the one that helps the damsel in distress (in this ep, Anya) home.

Anything else re: SR Eowyn has already covered for me.
May 24 2009 03:32 am   #25Guest
It was wholly Spike's fault- the same way the alley scene was wholly Buffy's fault- it doesn't matter that they pushed each other emotionally and physically into a destructive place, at the end of the day, we are all responsible for our own actions.

I completely disagree with this!  It DOES matter that they pushed each other emotionally and physically!  That's like telling a kid who gets horrifically abused that they are responsible for what happened to them.  That they are responsible for the abuse.  It goes the same with two adults who are emotionally and economically abusing each other.  It's like saying that you are responsible for telling your partner that hey its ok to manipulate and control me and vice versa.  The bathroom scene was a meltdown point blank on Spike's part.  He never went their saying 'I'm gonna hurt the bitch'

Did he?  Never heard it.  This is what pisses me off in this day and age.  I learned that male's deal differently with abuse and women do but it does happen.  They are defensive and retreat because it would make them seem weak.  This happened to a guy friend of mine and he chose to push it to the back of his mind.  So you see it can happen to anyone.  Male or female.

What the writers did was completely wrong on so many damn levels.  They completely overlooked the fact that Buffy abused Spike.  That her hands were washed clean of everything she had done when she was finally feeling more like herself.  That to me is letting someone go scott free of their own crimes!

She mentally and emotionally and physically abused Spike.  She was guilty.  What did this supposedly soulless vampire go out and do after the horror of the bathroom came to light when he was completely not all there!!!!!!  He went to get his soul. 

I am more disgusted with the writers on how they put this 'relationship' in context for so many viewers.  While some see it clearly as attempted rape...I see it along the lines through experiences and feelings of being the abused that Spike was led to this point so they could give him reason to get his soul.  This was wrong.  He could have achieved this in any other way.  This is the many reasons why I scream at the tv for their view of what it means to have a crime committed on yourself.

I pointed out in another thread similar to this that we are basically taught by what is drilled into our heads.  Example I tell my daughter how smart she is but her father who has seen a 90 clearly feels she can do better.  Sheesh she's only 9 and to me this is remarkable and her teacher praises her.  So what Spike is suppose to chear Buffy on when she clearly makes things hidden 'in the dark' and then not react?  She belittled, she used him, he was clearly her sex toy to feel, she spat and degraded him until he truly felt as worthless as William did.  So we expected him to applaud and say I love what you are telling me?  No he did nothing but let her keep doing all those hateful things to him and took every bite, every scratch, and every remark she threw at him.  He did this because he loved her and he hoped that she would love him too.  She made him feel lower than pond scum.  Sorry I don't buy the attempted rape nor do I buy that Buffy could do no wrong.  She did.  He let her and she in my opinion was worse than Cecily, worse than Dru and Definitely worse than Angelus or Angel could ever be.  She was suppose to portray woman empowerment as Joss indicated.  If she is that then I will make myself go back to church.  I just saw one screwed up girl make mistake after mistake and then make the biggest mistake of all.  Empower all females with superpowers just because she could???? 

Basically in their minds (the writers) were looking for some way to push Real Life issues and helping woman have some strength is a good one but wasn't necessarily done well.  I just can't for the life of me see how Buffy was the all wonderful, the epitome of what a heroine should be.  I just can't.  To me Spike made a tremendous effort to change what he was and in my eyes he was the Chosen because he overcame obstacles that led him on his path.  I just can't see Buffy as empowerment because she literrally gave other potentials something she whined and groaned about for years.  I have heard arguements about this but I just can't sway my thinking because she was innocent in my eyes once upon a time until she let herself be caught up in a 'pedophile' relationship.  Nuuh no way can I even begin to change my view of Buffy then.  That to me is just plain disgusting. 

Back to the topic at hand the bathroom in my opinion is offensive.  To me as a survivor.  I saw more devastation on Spike's part than Buffy's.  I saw loathing and still thinking of only herself and still teaching Spike that he is nothing less than nothing and never will amount to anything.  This is why I am absolutely in shock of Season 7.
May 24 2009 01:26 pm   #26londonmarie
As a survivor of rape, I felt more for Spike than I did Buffy. In season five he asked Buffy for a chance, anything at all and she denied him. Yet here she is in season six having sex with Spike and he's so in love with her that he believes he's getting his chance. And then she tears it all down again. What offended me about SR is that Buffy isn't some defenseless little girl. She's the slayer. There have been situations where she's been tired and drained and yet she retains her strength. I didn't buy Buffy as the victim. Spike was far more victimized throughout the entire season by Buffy. Even in part of season seven she reverts to her behavior of using Spike. If SR was to cleanse Buffy of her sins, then season seven would've been different.
May 24 2009 08:32 pm   #27spikes_wish
I completely disagree with this! It DOES matter that they pushed each other emotionally and physically! That's like telling a kid who gets horrifically abused that they are responsible for what happened to them. That they are responsible for the abuse

Clearly you didn't read what I had written before you quoted- it, in fact, said the somplete opposite. What you seem to be implying is that the child in your scenario deserved it by pushing their abuser emotionally and physically. What I'm saying is that an abused child is not AT ALL responsible for their abusers actions. However, if this abused child grows up to abuse other children, they are responsible for those actions.

And can we all please give Spike come credit here? He's not a child! He's not a puppy that was 'trained' and 'groomed'- he wanted to shag her just as much as she wanted to shag him. And fanwank all you like, there is no actual onscreen evidence of Spike trying 'to make love to her' when all she wants is a quick screw.  In fact he doesn't seem to mind the sex part all that much at all. (see: Dead Things (beginning) and Entropy (she was so raw, blah blah blah).

Buffy's abuse was physical, not sexual, and they emotionally attacked each other, it wasn't all one sided. The only difference was, Spike loved her. Buffy did mess with his head though, agreed, and the bathroom scene was clearly Spike attempting to gain control of the situation. However, I find that it undermines his character completely if you say he was blameless in the situation! Just because he lost his head slightly doesn't mean he's not responsible for his actions.

And the way you're talking about this paedophiliac relationship with Angel comes across very much sounding like the victims of paedophiles (in this instance, with Angel as the paedophile), their victims are somehow to blame for their abusers actions. If Buffy was a victim of a relationship with a paedophile in your opinion, then your view of her should not be disgust, but pity. If you don't, then you need to get a new comparison.

ETA: Also, intent wise? We still send people to prison for manslaughter- doing something in an impulsive, passionate rage doesn't make your actions any less yours. So just because he didn't go over intending to hurt her, doesn't mean he didn't, and doesn't mean his actions weren't his own. 

londonmarie, we're going to have to disagree on this one. Buffy's never been put into a situation like this before- with Xander's hyena possession she was well aware that he was dangerous and was in fact there to stop him. Just because Buffy is the Slayer, doesn't mean she is going to react when someone tries to violate her body, especially someone whom she knows, at least on some level, loves her, and whom she knows would die to protect her (see Intervention).
May 25 2009 12:48 pm   #28Guest
Clearly you didn't read what I had written before you quoted- it, in fact, said the somplete opposite. What you seem to be implying is that the child in your scenario deserved it by pushing their abuser emotionally and physically. What I'm saying is that an abused child is not AT ALL responsible for their abusers actions. However, if this abused child grows up to abuse other children, they are responsible for those actions.

This I have a problem with.  I did read exactly what you wrote.  I have dealt with these issues my entire life.  I will still deal with them as I will take them to my dying grave.  The abused children may be responsible for their actions but tell me this...You have a child grow up in a violent and sexual environment then turns around at the age 15 still not yet an adult and rapes a girl and yet gets away with it then does it again only this time its so horrific he ends up killing her.  Yes he's responsible.  Yes he committed a crime.  But look where he came from!  You look at kid # 2 who has had love and devotion from all sides of his growing up but for some untold reason later in life he is a mass murderer.  It's all on a psychological level.  You just don't know.  Therapy helps but what monster would get help when your only source of right from wrong is actually abusive towards you? 

What I was trying to point out though is re-watch the scene.  He is out of his mind.  He is NOT in control.  He doesn't want control, he wants her to admit she loves him back.  That she cares just a little bit.  He went there on the intention of apologizing after speaking to Dawn.  I read in someone's comment over at IMDB.com for the Seeing Red episode that Vampires don't rape humans.  This I found rather ludicrous to even suggest because look at what Angelus did to Dru before she was vamped.  They do but this was not what Spike did.  IT WAS OUT OF CHARACTER!  He is more in your face and honest.  He ran out of the bathroom like he had been lit on fire.  He was devastated because in actuality in the court of law Buffy would have been arrested for Domestic Violence had Spike had the heart to do so, but he didn't.  He let her beat on him because he really believed he wasn't good enough for her.  Actually I find that really degrading for tv to be showing because this is a common feeling most people endure...Not being good enough. 

If the roles were reversed and Spike had been abusive towards Buffy then we would not be having this discussion.  He even with his chip not working could have instead to prove a freaking point BIT HER!!!!!  He is a vampire and the writing was wrong on all accounts and to find that a man wrote it was actually a surprise.  I thought Marti Noxon wrote this episode...apparently she has input but is not credited for it.

I actually don't blame Spike...I blame the writing.  Honestly in my opinion tv will never get the horror of any rape done right.  Those that even tell their story aren't giving the whole story.  That's tv for you.  Like I said in another forum Spike was out of character.  He does not beg and he is certainly not desperate.  He is horrifying, scary, and completely upfront in your face, drinks his problems away, and honest.  They showed him as pathetic and desperate.  Not even when Dru finally left him or he got the chip did he seem this bad.  I would have rather seen him write something and then go off to change things.  Him hurting Buffy on the level of sleeping with Anya was uh can we say hello you weren't together and uh wasn't Anya already a demon so...?  God that's a typical thing to do to move on as they say...  Some may not do it but still some do.  You can't even suggest that they don't cuz hello they do.  LOL look at Forgetting Sarah Marshall Movie.  Funny movie...

Now Spikes_wish sometimes I wonder about certain people when it comes to the whole Angel and Buffy saga.  When I watched it I was actually creeeeeeped out.  He's like 250 and she is 15 going on 16.  That's all I suggested as wrong with the writing.  This was disgusting in my eyes.  I can't for the life of me understand HOW that got put on television!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I still to this day don't get how these things get made.  There are people out there who have serious issues with this!!!!!  I DO have a problem with that.  I said nothing of her being a victim.  I said for her involving herself in a relationship which should have sent her red flags to begin with!!!!!!  That should have been a concern.  What should have been a concern was that this program was geared to young adults...teens even.  The issues that were being given were horrendous for the age group.  I have a 9 year old daughter who thank god does not dress trampy but the day and age most girls do!!!!!  Then again I had 90210 back in my day so it's just something we deal with and monitor as best we can.

So lets see if my rapist comes back around and I'm angry as hell at him for what he did to me but yet I fight back and accidentally kill him...I go to jail.  Yeah I really love the system.  I WAS part of the system.  So I don't even trust them as far as my kid can throw them.  They let my attacker go for what he did to my sister and I but yet months later for two other girls he did that to he goes to jail.  Sorry hun I don't buy that crap the law has going for them because the monster while in jail kills himself for the others he did wrong by but what he done to me was ok...Sorry can't.  The law is so cut and dry and still it lets people go free.

Spike in this case hold blame for letting Buffy take away who he is.  In that moment he lost it.  Shoot I would have lost it too.  He and I think I heard this elsewhere or on this forum that it was like they spoke a different language to each other.  It still applies in this scene!!!!!  She always said no then yes.  This was in that moment out of character for both of them.  Before hand with her degrading him oh yeah still in character but her falling to the floor crying...Please.  Bad writing all around.  This is why I have a problem with this scene.

You mention also thatJust because Buffy is the Slayer, doesn't mean she is going to react when someone tries to violate her body, especially someone whom she knows, at least on some level, loves her, and whom she knows would die to protect her (see Intervention).

This is where it gets dicey because some of this we get from FANDOM!  She knows he would die to protect Dawn not necessarily her.  She thinks he loves her from what he says but in fact she says she thinks its real for him.  She doesn't give a fig about if he cares or not or if he has feelings.  All season long she degrades him to help herself feel better.  I see more emotion coming from James' acting than I do quite honestly from Sarah's.  To me it was like watching and feeling at that moment horrified from almost breaking down temper wise on my own child.  So tell me...Should I be condemned that I hit my child but I was so horrified by what I did that I could be going down the same road as my biological family did once upon a time...Uh no I do in fact have my own source of help and support.  What Buffy did was continuous.  I don't give a damn how old you are, you can be frail and old you can still abuse.  Buffy played the helpless martyr card then.  I don't buy it!  Basically you are saying that battered partners whether they are male or female don't form habits.  Hun I'm still trying to knock what my abuser did.  I'm female!  It was acquaintance rape too...Meaning my daughters father!  So this is why I disagree on so many levels that when people say you can't drill something into someone's head that they are responsible for themselves.  Yes I agree they are responsible for themselvesand their actions no doubt but when you go to class you learn, right?  Well you are being taught something.  Well when your abuser teaches you a way it stays in your head whether you like it or not.  With my case I have what happened to me younger and then when I was much older take me head on.  ITS NOT EASY.  You have to fight every damn day to not be like your abuser/s.  I even have to watch to not tell my daughter demeaning names because that's all I heard.  Like you are worthless.  You can't do anything right.  You're nothing without me. 

This is what I'm referring to.  When this is drilled into your brain you can accept no less that you retreat into yourself.  You dissociate.  You basically put up walls to protect yourself.  In that moment he lost all sense of self and had no idea what he was doing.  I have done that with my daughter when I have no idea why I'm yelling at times.  The message clearly was not done right, if this is what they were striving for to have an attempted rape scene then it should have been a bit clearer...Like Spike sneering or smirking.  He was none of these things.  To me it was not.  It was an emotional breakdown that really imvho was quite in fact appalling to watch.  No one on tv will ever get it right and I was shocked at how out of character they were. Some tv has come close but definitely not BTVS SR episode.  Xander's hyena possession episode was imo attempt rape. I understand bringing them all to a dark place but why?  Season 6 was controversial and actually the only episode that I loved was surprisingly OAFA...Ok OMWF parts of it and TR was hilarious.  I get she's depressed because of heaven but that in itself was entirely playing on a real thin line of why'd you have to go there?  Seriously, heaven?????????  The depression...was what they needed to play but how the hell did she know where she was because honestly there are some really dead set religious people out there who I wouldn't be surprised to hear had something to say about that when Buffy mentions to Spike where she was.  Shame on you Jane.  So clearly the writing was just poorly done.  David Fury I found wrote pretty darn well...I loved loved Lies My Parents Told Me.

Sorry I ranted it just irks me sometimes and yes I have a pretty darn set opinion when it comes to issues like that, and yeah it pushes my buttons because these are issues I have faced.  What I see on tv never amounts to the feeling I know and looking at Spike he was anything but devastated.  If this was the only episode it would still be my interpretation of that episode and I have been the victim.  It was not about control either.  If you loved somebody and they kept blantantly denying their feelings because actions say otherwise wouldn't you want to know?  Some would say if they aren't going to tell you they would walk away....But how many of us really do just walk away?  Some of us really want to know if there is a chance even if its just friendship.  Just my perspective...Ok done ranting off to bed!

EM
May 25 2009 03:13 pm   #29evangelin
I think I would have been offended more if this had occurred- despite their past, it would send an apalling message- think of all the battered women who go running back to their abusive partners- in a way that would be condoning it. We'd seen enough of that previously in the season, with Spike running back to Buffy constantly. But despite my love for Spike, this would almost be worse, as Buffy is supposed to be the role model for the show, supposedly the embodiment of 'women empowerment' (rolls eyes), and they have spent the season trying to make her the good guy. Whether or not I think they achived this is a different matter, but to send the 'role model' back to a partner who had been abusive is an awful message to send.

You misunderstood me. I think they should have started fixing the relationship BEFORE the rape. I think they should have started doing that instead of the bullshit that was the scene in the bathroom! 

About Buffy not being able to react, please, it's called instinct and Slayer instincts should be(and we've seen them be) like nothing else!

About the Buffy/Angel thing. I hardly see it aspaedophiliac but if I do look at it from this point of view Buffy should have said "no". We all know what Angel is in BtVS. A disgusting thing(where have I heard that before?) that "falls in love" with a fifteen year old sucking on a lollipop(yeah, that's true love!)
May 25 2009 10:56 pm   #30Guest
Just happened to watch this ep today, because others were in the house.

Okay, if the AR scene had been an isolated crime scene, say, on a crime show, okay.......Spike comes off as a major bad guy and Buffy's the victim....BUT, I'll never say that it fits because of the back story. My boyfriend was watching, too, and agrees that it doesn't fit and is OOC. Even in the actual mechanics of the scene....Spike is rational, trying to talk to Buffy (not even drunk, he only had one drink at home), then all of a sudden, he's pawing her like a frantic thing.......now, if she was just a regular gal, he is all over her enough to make it difficult to get away, and she fell on the edge of the bathtub in the same place that she hurt earlier, BUT, he wasn't using enough force to trap a Slayer. You can see in James' actions that he's barely touching Sarah more than he has to. It was almost like sparring, where you touch just enough to know where the touch lands.

Why Buffy begs and screams.......OOC. She's never begged or screamed like that a day in her life since she became the Slayer. Sarah played a great traumatized girl.......but it doesn't fit with anything we know of Buffy. Since the writing of each ep was frequently a team effort, we can't know for sure if that scene is all Steve DeKnight for the words/sounds...and as for the mechanics of how it aired, the director has the say. The director films, cuts, and approves the edits. I don't think that guy understood what he was faced with on that scene at all.......and it's a real shame.

I love what Spike does to get the soul, how he fights to be better, but I hate the catalyst they used to get him there. Yeah, it would take hurting Buffy, something he always said he wouldn't do, to get him to change that drastically, but they didn't have to fall on rape to get him there. :(

CM
May 26 2009 03:27 am   #31Scarlet Ibis
We don't know how much Spike had been drinking before Dawn showed up, not that that matters since it was a clear breakdown going on with Spike in that bathroom.  And given the last several months he'd been through...I'm not so sure that one can say that a nervous breakdown is or isn't in character for anyone, because it can happen to anyone under the right circumstances.  It's happened to Angel, Wesley, Faith, and Willow.  Spike having a breakdown didn't bother me.  And it certainly didn't hurt that Marsters' brilliant acting made me believe and feel that every step of the way.

But--

Why Buffy begs and screams.......OOC. She's never begged or screamed like that a day in her life since she became the Slayer. Sarah played a great traumatized girl.......but it doesn't fit with anything we know of Buffy.
Ditto and word there.  That was totally OoC.  If they wanted to make that one work, they should have had her stabbed by another poisoness demon, except this time, have it make her briefly forget her slayer strength, instincts, etc., so that the scene from Buffy's end could have made an iota of sense.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 26 2009 02:29 pm   #32Guest
Spike does have a breakdown, or is meant to, at least. I'm just saying that the theory that he went over there drunk isn't actually true as an excuse, because he isn't drunk at all.....we've seen Spike drunk and that wasn't it. I could actually give more merit to the scene if he DID come across drunk!

Watching it analytically yesterday, I could tell that it was probably too hard a scene to do to be James' best work. Spike shifts too suddenly from apologizing and explaining, to suddenly trying to seduce Buffy into admitting her feelings, to trying to force her into sex (WTH)......it's almost like the scene progresses too fast, in how it feels to me? Like there should have been more literal time to get from A to B to C. Even from James, the attack feels artificial, and I can't say that about anything else I've seen him in.

Eh....it's hard to get across on "paper"....more...stuff I'd have to point out to someone watching with me.

Yeah.....you can almost imagine someone in the background telling Sarah "Okay, just flail and scream until we tell you to kick him.....keep begging......keep begging......okay...there!"  *eye roll*  Based on every previous encounter, Buffy and Spike should have been fighting over those disagreed words. Punching each other is how they get points across......so Buffy doesn't shove him out of her bathroom??  And Spike usually throws something or punches a wall when she doesn't take what he's saying seriously....like throwing the glass in OMWF during the start of his song. He's a vampire of habit, and his frustration had never taken that (AR) direction before...not with Dru, Harmony, or Buffy.

Ridiculous.

CM
May 26 2009 08:31 pm   #33Guest
And Spike usually throws something or punches a wall when she doesn't take what he's saying seriously....like throwing the glass in OMWF during the start of his song. He's a vampire of habit, and his frustration had never taken that (AR) direction before..
But that was more than just mere frustration.  He'd been frustrated during the better half of that season.  He's frustrated, among other things, after the event as well, but I would never classify what he was going through as frustration in that bathroom.  He was desperate, and clearly on the brink.  There was a moment when he like, kisses her forehead, and his face just crumbles, and it looks like he might cry...  Anyway, considering everything, I didn't find that moment for him OoC.  If that had happened at the beginning of the season?  Then yeah, totally left field.  But the more I think about it--the more I've thought about it, an emotional breakdown seemed warranted for Spike.  There's been a steady deconstruction of Spike since season four--of who and what he is and who and what he should be.  So having that moment play out as it did (from his POV), made sense, whereas "Buffy the victim" did not.
May 26 2009 10:59 pm   #34nmcil
There's been a steady deconstruction of Spike since season four--of who and what he is and who and what he should be. So having that moment play out as it did (from his POV), made sense, whereas "Buffy the victim" did not.

The next scene with Clem has Spike asking himself the questions of just what he has become - why he could not continue his attack as a vampire should have - who or what has changed him to such an extreme.  And he takes all the conflict and confusion with him into his trials.  James Marsters played his meeting with the African demon and his conflicted state so well - channeling all his upheaval into extreme anger and doing whatever it took to be victorious.  And I really did like how the demon saw beyond his stated purpose and into his heart and spirit.  While there are a great many viewers that go with the idea that Spike wanted to go back to his pre-chipped state, I prefer to go with the idea that Spike did want to become the man/vamp as depicted in the church scene of "Beneath You."

I never had the impression that Spike was drunk in the bathroom scene - what is the time frame?  Must be the night after "Entrophy" and since Xander is out visiting, it can't be that late -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 27 2009 02:17 am   #35Scarlet Ibis
While there are a great many viewers that go with the idea that Spike wanted to go back to his pre-chipped state, I prefer to go with the idea that Spike did want to become the man/vamp as depicted in the church scene of "Beneath You."
Joss and co. have explicitly said (somewhere) that Spike, no question, went for his soul and not for the chip's removal.  Anyone who says otherwise is in some kind of denial.  Besides, he didn't need the chip out to hurt Buffy anyway.

I never had the impression that Spike was drunk in the bathroom scene
No, he wasn't drunk in the bathroom scene, but he is seen as being well on his way back at the crypt when Dawn shows up, which is the same night as the bathroom scene. He's unsteady on his feet, swaying...but Dawn's "congratulations" comments seem to sober him up a bit.  Not that that scene was about Spike being unstable due to alcohol.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 27 2009 02:31 am   #36nmcil

Thanks Much for the clarification - 

Spike in bathroom scene - ironic how Spike was lit and presented at his most beautiful in this most horrific of their scenes.


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 29 2009 05:23 pm   #37Guest
You have a child grow up in a violent and sexual environment then turns around at the age 15 still not yet an adult and rapes a girl and yet gets away with it then does it again only this time its so horrific he ends up killing her. Yes he's responsible. Yes he committed a crime. But look where he came from! You look at kid # 2 who has had love and devotion from all sides of his growing up but for some untold reason later in life he is a mass murderer. It's all on a psychological level. You just don't know. Therapy helps but what monster would get help when your only source of right from wrong is actually abusive towards you?

Many people manage to deal with these issues in a healthy way, and it can make them stronger and give them an even stronger idea of what is wrong and right in the world, even without therapy. So these people are still responsible for their actions- it just means we can understand why they might commit such heinous acts, and try and help them afterwards. I am in no way saying that Spike needs to be punished for his actions- he punishes himself, and whether or not it was his fault or otherwise, if we hadn't seen Spike react with remorse we would all think less of him. If he had acted all "Bitch deserved it", then that would have been not only totally OOC, bud would isolate many peoples feelings towards him.

Also, Spike's not 15. He's a lot older than 15. And to blame all of his issues on Buffy is a bit etreme, because god knows Angelus, Druscilla and Darla (not to mention his Mum) probably gave him a few too.

Also, blame the writers all you want, it's what happened, it's how she reacted and it's what Spike did. It's canon, and no matter what the writers were trying to achieve, It's still canon, and Buffy's 'injury' slowed her down. For all we know it may have only been affecting her because she was on or something similar. But facts are facts : Buffy's injury stopped her from 'moving so good', something that is made clear from the beginning of the scene. It's clarly 'flobotnam', but then, so is the Potentials managing to kill dozens and dozens of ubervamps with their newly acquired powers when Buffy got smashed up completley fighting just the one.  

In regards to Buffy/Angel- if you're going to call it a paedophiliac relationship, then immediately you take away much of the responsibility from Buffy as you are categorizing her as a child that has been manipulated into a relationship by an adult. The most you can blame her for is her naiviety and innocence. However, as Buffy was 17 when they consumated their relationship, Buffy is practically an adult, and Angel is at most a statutory rapist. Buffy would not have been considered a victim of paedophilia. Angel, however, is very very creepy perving on her when she is 15. Buffy did not even know that the event had occured until she was 18, and was so in love with the perv that she took it to be romantic.

Buffy does not act immorally in her relationship (until she kills him), rather just like any other young girl in love. Although this leads to some poor choices with unforseeable consequences (like sleeping with her boyfriend and him turning evil and going off on a killing spree), the only crime she is guilty of is her naiviety. And not realising that she had zero chemistry with her boyfriend whatsoever.

And she doesn't pursue him initially- he pursues her, showing up with creepy cryptic messages that aren't much help at all, and occasionally trying to save her life.
May 29 2009 09:12 pm   #38Guest

Also, Spike's not 15. He's a lot older than 15. And to blame all of his issues on Buffy is a bit etreme, because god knows Angelus, Druscilla and Darla (not to mention his Mum) probably gave him a few too.

This I quoted because actually I am completely disregarding what you commented before it.  One because I have talked to numerous authorities and qualified people in regards to this.  This stems from - does your past influence who you are today?  I have had arguments with friends regarding this.  Because abused children do have issues surrounding this.  Some, albeit quiet a very few of them, can survive by sheer will of this doesn't seem right but rather it feels wrong.  Some, can, but some who have had it massively beaten into the very core of their very being, have a problem.  These individuals do need help because quite frankly your whole innocence has been shattered.  I have literally had my child hood ripped from me.  Am I bitter?  You bet.  When I gave that example it was of kids who eventually had grown to adults.  These are where the mass murderers and sick demented individuals come from.

A mother who wasn't involved in her own childrens abuse is still very much to blame for because she knew it was happening and she watched.  She is responsible.  The child is not.  The child who grows up being an abuser or even worse a killer is responsible to an extent.  This is why I believe that we are taught right from wrong as we grow up from our family.  It's all based on cultural beliefs.  In some culturals its ok to sodomize a boy to give him his first sexual experience.  Is it right?  To those it sounds cruel beyond belief, and sick.  But to those who in fact use this belief see absolutely no wrong in it.  So in fact what you believe may be wrong may in fact not be wrong to someone else.  There is no wrong answer.

I do believe Buffy was at fault for pushing Spike as far as it did go.  She did what any abuser would have done...Manipulated and controlled.  She used him to feel.  She spat out cruel, degrading words.  He said things on the defense.  You mean to tell me that you go through a period of your life with someone telling you horrible things relentlessly, that you're ok with that, you just move on?  Please I don't buy that.  There are so many writers out there who in fact put us in our place and give us the facts that it does happen.  People get destroyed by those menial words.  They in fact haunt us.  This is what I believed happened to Spike.  This happened to me as a child and then by my ex.  It happens.  Yes he was distraught because he didn't realize he was hurting her.  He was traumatized so much he went to make it better because all he heard was he didn't have a soul or had anything good or clean inside of him.  Makes sense to the humans of this world to categorize him as that.  To me, I related because he is in fact an outsider, he feels different even from the vampire and human world.  Victims feel this way as well.  I didn't see Buffy as a victim.  I saw her as a victim for being called into something she didn't want, but not that.

So yeah he may not be 15 but no where did I indicate he wasn't.  You beat down someone until they are nothing they start down their path of self pity and worth.  She did that.  I had no respect for Buffy in Season 6 at all.

This is why Buffy is so used as such a debate topic in Psychology classes!  The themes are perfect for critiquing the pants off of it.

And Guest...As for your insight on the Angel/Buffy saga.  Yeah she didn't pursue him in the beginning.  In fact she was really stuck up when it came to his advances and that was in fact really smart of her.  She called him on the ewww factor.  Because in fact he is so much older!  I disagree with you on the part of Buffy was practically an adult.  Hun there are people who are 21 and still have so much growing up to do.  She was not practically an adult.  SHE.WAS.STILL.A.TEENAGER.  He should have stayed away from having a relationship with her to begin with.  To me it stands as he was a pedophile.  If my daughter had some guy doing that I would haul the authorities so quick on his sick perverted self.  She still did not have the right to make her own decisions.  She did not have a life away from her mother.  If anything her mother still had quite an impact on her life then.  I will be very careful with my own daughter because in fact Joyce was rather loose when it came to being a parent.  She did not set boundaries for her.  This is in fact not a good message for other teens.  Hence the telling lies and thus resulting in rebelling.  Ok as for it being supernatural and television fine.  Having my daughter watch that...HELL NO!  That's like the keys to the biggest candy factory in the world for giving kids ideas.  This is probably the biggest problem with parents and tv.  The message it sends.  But I was ok with it while growing up because my parents gave me a message you screw up you are grounded big time.  I learned.  That's just me.  Others I'm sure.  It depends on their maturity level.  Buffy was not mature.  As a Slayer when she got older it was different.  The earlier seasons hell no she was IMMATURE.  Look at the day and age girls outfit and you tell me they aren't asking for it...Because I think they are dressing rather provocative these days.  Its a shame.  Who do we blame?  TV and the Press.

Everything effects in some way.  This was my point and to have such a strongly opinionated theme put out on tv get slapped on because the writers wanted to take Season 6 to a dark place, just doesn't sit right with me.  Don't take issues like this and do it half assed especially in the supernatural world when the lines blur on what is right from wrong.  Spike questioned who he was.  Does he blame himself.  Yes, because Buffy instilled this into him.  Making him question everything.  He is suppose to be a vampire.  In the Whedon world vampires have no souls.  They aren't suppose to feel.  However, this is my issue...Spike felt more than any other vampire without a soul.  In fact throughout the entire show I would have said he had a soul.  His food is human blood.  Should he feel badly because he needs to eat?  He didn't viciously tear people apart from what has been shown.  He puts on his game face instills fear in his 'dinner' and is on his way. 

In fact, that Spike I missed tremendously because he was honest almost honorable.  I love his transformation, but it could have been more thought out and done in some other way.  Not taking it to the extremes of some very serious issues.  Although, then Buffy wouldn't have been used for such great topic discussions for papers, essays, and debates.  So go figure.

Bathroom is still offensive in my eyes.  I'm not going to beat a dead horse.  Yes it is fiction.  Yes it is canon.  Yes it's done and over with.  However, it gives us the viewers something to nit-pick and relentlessly debate over with the inconsistencies within the story.  I see no harm in that.  There will be some who are so dead set because of their own beliefs, and that's fine.  Then there will be others who will in fact relate to those fictional characters and stand up for them as they should.

The question is from the episode we see is do you find it offensive given that Joss has stated publicly he saw Buffy as woman empowerment.  Was that scene seen as a fight back to gain women's control over there own life?  Was this in fact paving the way to say yes Buffy was fighting to get control over her own life considering she had her friends and everyone around her make decisions for her?  This was what I questioned taking it a step further.  Because if you take the Bathroom scene some would say yes she was fighting back to get controll.  Controll she lost because of her friends bringing her back to a life she was done with.  She should have had this out with them, not Spike.  But Spike is still there nontheless.  She chose him to take out her aggressions on.  Spike says in Season 7 that Buffy used him and this was truly what made me respect Spike even more.  He called her on it.

Here It is:

 

SPIKE
Meaning I have come to redefine the words pain and suffering since I fell in love with you.

BUFFY
(sighs) How can you say that?

SPIKE
Apparently, I just slaughtered half of Sunnydale, pet. I'm not really worried about being polite anymore.

BUFFY
(nods) So, that's what this is about. (stands, crosses arms) You feeling sorry for yourself, Spike?

SPIKE
I'm feeling honest with myself. You used me.

BUFFY
Yes.

SPIKE
You told me that, of course. I never understood it though. Not until now. You hated yourself, and you took it out on me.

BUFFY
You figured that out just now?

SPIKE
Soul's not all about moonbeams and pennywhistles, luv. It's about self-loathing. I get it. Had to travel 'round the world, but I understand you now. I understand the violence inside.

BUFFY
Violence? William the Bloody now has insight into violence?

SPIKE
Not the same. As bad as I was, as evil and as wretched as I was, I never truly hated myself back then. Not like I do now.

To me this whole thing was about self loathing.  That's what I saw in the bathroom that made it offensive to me.  That was like ripping the scab off your wound and making it bleed until all the pain was gone.  This is what I saw.  As for that scene I respected Spike more and found Buffy rather hypocritical.  Had this been Angel with his cursed soul she would have jumped in his arms...Hence End of Days.

This scene is going to be picked apart from the start of their disastrous relationship to the very end of Season 7, regardless.  As a viewer we can try to look at the scene as one but you really can't.  This is why it was offensive to me.  It offended me because as a survivor of rape sometimes its bothersome when people relate these crimes on screen.  And yet there is part of me who is proud that people speak up but in the context that was given I was offended.  Your perp whether they are known or not does not go away looking horrified.  You don't have miss bodybuilder suddenly weak after an excruiciating work out.  This is how I saw  Buffy minus the supernatural aspect.  When a woman or man or whoever is involved...endorphins rise and you try your little heart out to fight back or you block and dissociate to live from your attack.  It's a horrifying rush but Buffy seemed OOC to me.  This was not something Spike would do.  A vampire yes but Spike being that vampire, uh no.  It was made very clear how he treated women...He was anything but a rapist or even a potential rapist.  This is why I have loads of issues with this and the inconsistencies. 

Sorry about the rant but wow I'm talky today!  Sorry for any typos as I'm at work and in between calls and jobs running... :)

EM

May 31 2009 09:13 pm   #39nmcil
To me this entire "you used me scene" stinks - it was such a weak and dishonest attempt to bring resolution to the abusive relationship and particularly to Buffy's conduct - if you watch the scene again, IMO, even poor SMG has a difficult time doing that scene - especially her " Buffy:  Violence? William the Bloody now has insight into violence?" line, to me it comes off so weak, like the actress does not really have an understanding of what exactly she is suppose to be representing with his line and the character.  I wish some of the members would look at that scene again and tell me how it comes across to them.  Cause to me - it feels really strange and simply not effective with what is being presented, which is nothing less than a exploration and a defining (suppose to be) moment of what Buffy has done to Spike. 

Do these lines mean that at last, his having a soul mean that he is equal with Buffy in having the capacity to hate himself - he now has equal capacity of conscience?  And if that is what this means; where does it put the prime hero/heroine model?  Buffy is equally on "moral low ground" because she acted out her emotional needs on Spike without regard to any morals.  What exactly were the writers trying to say here? In my opinion, the these lines make for one big jumbled mess and only serve to muddle up even more the moral issues from their relationship.  Logically it is obvious that the Spike character must have already had the capacity to feel great guilt and to understand the moral implications of his actions otherwise he would never have gone to get a soul in the first place.   In the effort to not deal with Buffy's horrible conduct with her use of Spike, the writers, IMO, did a terrible disservce to the series, the characters and to the viewers with this scene.  We all know that the level of writing in the series was splendid but so many times, IMVHO, the writers just did not complete the exploration of the very complex themes that they introduced in the series, and I think this is one example of a weak attempt at resolution.

SPIKE
Soul's not all about moonbeams and pennywhistles, luv. It's about self-loathing. I get it. Had to travel 'round the world, but I understand you now. I understand the violence inside.

BUFFY
Violence? William the Bloody now has insight into violence?

SPIKE
Not the same. As bad as I was, as evil and as wretched as I was, I never truly hated myself back then. Not like I do now.
 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 01 2009 03:29 am   #40Scarlet Ibis
To me this entire "you used me scene" stinks - it was such a weak and dishonest attempt to bring resolution to the abusive relationship and particularly to Buffy's conduct
I agree wholeheartedly.  That would have been the perfect time for her to apologize for her conduct, but they made it seem as if the fact that he was soulless at the time made it completely irrelevant, which is a horrible message to send.  That did not make it okay.  If Spike had failed at the demon trials in the attempt to get his soul, would that had made his actions less admirable just because he wasn't successful?  No.  It probably wouldn't have mattered to Buffy, though.  I hate the fact that the characters put all of this emphasis and importance on soul having, when we have seen time and time again from at least season two onward that a soul does not make a human good or free from evil deeds.

Also?  It pissed me the hell off that they kept trying to separate soulless Spike from soul having Spike by referring to him as "William the Bloody," when they never did before.  What--was that supposed to be his Angelus equivalent or something?  Spike did not have a personality disorder...it was retarded and annoying.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 01 2009 06:32 pm   #41Guest
Nmcil - Did I misinterpret that scene?  For some strange reason I felt Spike's response on his soul having to be accurate and heartfelt.  What he says to Buffy though, it seems to be an attempt at making Spike seem like two different vamps.  Which I agree with Scarlet on.  This was retarded and annoying.

To be honest when I hear 'William the Bloody' well, I picture him actually covered in blood.  Definitely not causing bloodshed.  I never got that.  What I did get was why he had been called that in the first place.  IMVHO I think they did this to cover Angel because of how his soul was.  I don't think the writers ever saw Angel's soul as a curse.  Because the more you saw both shows the less it became known as a curse.  Why the Scoobs couldn't grasp that Spike sought his soul and got it was not seen as noble or heroic, is ludacris. 

I understood Spike's grief and pain when he got the soul because we knew who he once was.  What I could never understand was Angel's...I look at Liam and I saw bad news all around. That's why I believe they had to make Spike out this way.  They screwed up.  Wrong vamp had the show.  Sorry not an Angel lover.  Never was.  David is a great actor, but I just could never love, let alone like, the character Angel.  Personally, I hated him with Spike in Season 5.  Angel's character IMO did better with Cordelia's character.  Why?  She didn't take any of his crap.  This whole having sex but not getting really happy?  Please such a cop out.  Yes I have issues with Angel.  LOL.

OOO I like your point Scarlet.  What if he didn't succeed?  If he didn't wouldn't he have been dusted?  Buffy in canon wouldn't have cared either way.  Her hands were wiped clean.  I agree with the whole soul having its wrong to be thinking so inside the box when really you should be thinking outside the box.  The whole picture.  None of them do that.  Oh well...Great shows, but too many points for us to just nitpick it to death.

I so went off topic sorry bit woozy not feeling well.  Did I misinterpret that scene?  Cuz I really thought it was his insight on what happened with them with his soul.  I respected his honesty on his part but how he saw her...He was dead on.  She was so selective when he tells her about the soul.  Scratches her head...Help?  Am I right in saying she only chose to say what she wanted to say (or in this fact the writers chose what to say) and kept her conduct out...but in fact kept his conduct was a major part in their destructive relationship.  Uh, that's cruel, cuz in my book it takes two to tango.  This is why I have lots of issues with that bathroom scene too.  Ok maybe I will take a look at that Season 7 ep. again.
EM
Jun 03 2009 09:15 am   #42nmcil
This scene is going to be picked apart from the start of their disastrous relationship to the very end of Season 7, regardless. As a viewer we can try to look at the scene as one but you really can't. This is why it was offensive to me. It offended me because as a survivor of rape sometimes its bothersome when people relate these crimes on screen.

I think that one of the things that went so wrong with the attempted rape scene was that a real life experience from Marti Noxon which was really about extreme psychological and emotional distress was used as the foundation for Seeing Red.  Unfortunately the primary focus was changed from "emotional desperation" of a person losing the object of their love into a violent and criminal act.   Having changed the dynamics of her experience, sufficiently powerful and an excellent match the Spike character, transformed to  such a higher level with the attempted rape, that the writers lost the focus with extremely negative results for Spike.  This forced the need for the resolution onto Spike and gives the Buffy as victim an easier and more simple way to account for her brutal attack and emotional use of her male counterpart.

By the time that the "you used me" resolution comes into play,  the Spike character is given some relief from Seeing Red,  but the scene, IMO, is not sufficient to their history. Especially without any major acknowledgement of the part that Buffy played in their relationship, IMO, is reads as a very weak transition from the extreme action of the attempted rape.    

This idea of "self loathing" as a way to attempt to resolve and explain  the extreme violent action in Seeing Red and their destructive relationship does not work for me.  Are we to think that if Spike never went through those trials and got his soul back he would never have had the capacity to understand what they had lived through - that Spike sans soul is also Spike sans intellect and sans conscience.  Like Scarlet Ibis asked - what if he tried and failed the trails?  What would have been  the intellectual and spiritual status of Spike had he died during the trials?  

Spike understands and feels great remorse and guilt about his relationship with Buffy - but the idea that he has the capacity to understand how Buffy felt about herself and her "self-loathing" only after having being en-souled does not seem logical.   

 
  

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 03 2009 10:21 pm   #43Guest
I don't know I'm still having a really hard time accepting SR as an attempted rape.  I hear both sides, but what I'm seeing doesn't even red flag AR to me.  If it did then - when I got so drunk ,and my ex said no stop, please no, I'm seeing someone else...then continue to have sex with him because we know each other - thats considered date rape.  Yet he's stronger than I am, but still he had the sex.  I know it blurs but thats date rape.   Totally lame example, but trying to point out.  Sex games blur things.  However, Buffy liked it that way with Spike.

I take every nitty little detail and really get to the bottom of it all.  Cuz that one scene alone doesn't answer a darn thing for me.  My attacker after I kick him off panics runs off hoping not to get caught or comes back at you full force hitting you and holding you down.  I didn't get the sense he was holding her down.  He was pushing himself on her rather desperately...He was stuck in his own mind.  Because this individual really feels and without that all important soul that no one really does or will ever love him.  He really truly believes that somewhere deep inside Buffy she does.  He is still dissociating from what is actually really happening.  He hears no, but his mind remembers - oh this is ok.  We have done this before.  It's like telling a child who is repeatedly abused don't tell anyone or else.  It's the same concept with any age group. 

They were found out, but she thought of Spike as her dirty little secret.  She wanted to hide.  She was ashamed of him and ashamed of herself.  No one can tell me that she wasn't ashamed of him, because she was.  She tells him she used him.  That's shameful enough, isn't it?  He didn't have a problem telling others about them, but he had no choice.  She controlled everything. 

I just take everything into account and then I go from there and I'm still not seeing AR at all.  This is why I'm offended by the bathroom scene so much -  They took two characters and tried to put them in a writers personal experience and feelings...I didn't get it right.  If they were attempting Attempted Rape...do it right.  You don't have the person you know or don't know flee in horror.  You have them jump out a window and flee the crime panicked from getting caught.  You have them come back at you and hurt you.  He's a freaking vampire ffs!!!!!  He could have freaking bit her!!!!

This is why I have so many issues with that scene.  With the writing having to do with souls.  With the contradicting of Angel and Spike.  They are not the same.  Angel is a cursed soul.  Spike's was fought for and won.  The whole hero/heroine aspect.  To me IMVHO I have mucho problemos with alot of the writing having to do with evil versus good.  I really despise this whole demon bad human good.  Terms protecting innocents is a better term.  In that case she is protecting very few of them lol...Ok I get to leave work....Yeah get to go home early...I have ranted enough...I still stand pretty firm in how I feel about the bathroom ep. 

I agree with your view on 'self loathing' nmcil on that though...It doesn't work for me either.
Jun 13 2009 09:47 am   #44myrabeth
I'm going to look at this from a different angle, and I hope it doesn't derail the conversation too much, but...

First of all, when the writers painted themselves into a corner with the big story arcs (knowing where they wanted to be, but not knowing how to get there), their standard rule was to severely weaken Buffy:  She became the poor little teen who was punished for having sex in Surprise/Innocence (cue Joss chastising himself for breaking one of his own rules) so they could write a way to unleash Angelus. She had the snot beat out of her by an Ubervamp in Ssn 7 so the writers could have every character running scared... though we later see that newly called girls with only a few months of spotty training can knock them out in pairs. And then there's the infamous bathroom scene.

Yes, someting of that caliber (though I don't think attempted rape was the only course of action) had to happen to justify Spike's soul-searching trip to Africa.

Yes, it's understandable that Buffy was written to be weak in this scene so that it would go far enough to make Spike want to take that trip. Again, they could have written something with far less disturbing imagery.

But why did it all have to happen in the first place? Because the writers painted themselves into a corner. Buffy's self-loathing theme for the year had gone on too long and had hurt too many people (not even counting Spike).  The audience was starting to hate the "hero." And the audience had started to strongly sympathize with Spike... more than the writers had ever intended.

The writers never thought Spike was the right guy for Buffy and said so. I firmly believe they viewed him mostly as a tool for showing how Buffy was so fabulous, she could make a bad guy want to be good (after the "wacky neighbor" characterization of him in Ssn 4 wore thin). When he became the guy on the outer edge of Buffy's circle, the one who could force her to face the darkness within, they had their use for him for Ssn 6. After all, the fans would riot if Spike were killed off, may as well take advantage of him, right?

But that path led to badness, in every direction. Suddenly, they're coming up on the end of Ssn 6, they need an impetus to get Spike to Africa, the audience hates the "hero" and doesn't see her as one anymore, and the "bad guy" is not only a fan favorite, he's been looking an awful lot like the victim of the supposed hero. Crap! How can we get out of this mess in five minutes of film? Oh! I know! Let's severely weaken Buffy (again) and have her be an obvious victim of a cut-and-dried situation where she can't possibly be the one to blame! That will make the audience forget how much of an abusive bitca she's been all year, make them agree with us that Spike is the wrong boyfriend for her, and get him out of town for the soul thing we're planning. Perfect!

Uh, no. They did it in a hurry and they didn't do it well. The result was fans who were seriously turned off by that scene not only for its disturbing content, but for the incredibly weak writing behind it. They handled the entire situation (story-arc-wise) so badly that Spike still came off looking like the victim in the bathroom scene to some viewers. Plus, she was out of character for not fighting back. The experienced Slayer who prided herself on not letting her gaurd down, particularly around Spike, acted like she'd never been in a fight before. The vamp who would have swallowed his pride and written bloody awful poetry for her as his last-ditch effort to things better goes from pathetic, begging, beaten puppy to raging maniac in about 2 seconds. It leaves one with an overwhelming feeling of "HUH? Who ARE these people? And where are Buffy and Spike?"

The fact that the writers felt this one horrific scene was their get out of jail free card is proven in the remainder of the series. Spike comes back in full atonement mode, not just for his 120-year killing spree, but especially for the bathroom scene. The writers make sure we see the weight of that night in every Spike and Buffy scene for the early part of the season (especially Beneath You) ... before the focus switches to showing how awesome Buffy is for looking past it and still treating him like a friend.

Meanwhile, Buffy's entire atonement is a monotone "Yes" (from the tied-to-a-chair scene quoted above). The writers are clearly saying she has nothing to atone for and doesn't even really need to acknowledge she ever treated him badly. Why? Because they spent five minutes of film on a side story explaining that HE was the ONLY monster.

It was just very poorly handled, almost as if they were writing toward proving his last lines in the series to be true, while still making her look good. The end result for me? I stopped liking Buffy herself after The Gift (though she was never my favorite character to start with). I stayed with the series for the stories and the other characters. I write Spuffy fan fic because I like Spike, and like the idea of giving him what he wanted... even if he does have bloody awful taste in women. Not his fault...

A couple of weak moments in the writing in crucial moments of an overall strong series with a complex, arcing plot can have lasting consequences. They can change the way the audience sees the series, or a particular character. They can also change the entire direction of the later episodes. Once the writers established that Buffy was pretty much blameless, there was nothing they could do about her relationship with Spike but ride the ripples of what was already written.




http://myrabethfanfic.wordpress.com
Jun 13 2009 09:06 pm   #45Guest
I'm going to look at this from a different angle, and I hope it doesn't derail the conversation too much, but...

Derailed the conversation?  Nope...You just took it a step further by looking at the series as a whole rather than solo episodes.

First of all, when the writers painted themselves into a corner with the big story arcs (knowing where they wanted to be, but not knowing how to get there), their standard rule was to severely weaken Buffy: She became the poor little teen who was punished for having sex in Surprise/Innocence (cue Joss chastising himself for breaking one of his own rules) so they could write a way to unleash Angelus. She had the snot beat out of her by an Ubervamp in Ssn 7 so the writers could have every character running scared... though we later see that newly called girls with only a few months of spotty training can knock them out in pairs. And then there's the infamous bathroom scene.

I think pretty much here, and yes you are quite right, that as the writers they needed story.  They needed something to keep the viewers hooked.  Look at fan fiction.  Damn, so many could have written that second season much better.  Okay...sure it would be Spuffy centered...possibly (more on that later).  Look at where it's going comic book wise.  I only read 4 then became so disinterested.  It's like cartoons or anime.  You can take things further there, but as far as not doing anime syle...people will speak out.  Look at Dragonball.  I personally liked the movie, but others who are hardcore Dragonball fans do not.   I have watched Dragonball and what I saw was those behind the film do their best to make an anime show into a movie without the animation.  Only so much you can do and with your budget.  I know then we see movies like Transformers and we are floored.  With Buffy...I agree with you.  They painted themselves literally into a corner with every story arc they had.  I'm not suggesting that the show wasn't strong, it was.  Why?  Primarily it had a different vibe to it.  It wasn't a reality show and it wasn't some re-make of some television series like 90210 for example.  It's kinda like a guirkier and young adult version of True Blood to me.  True Blood is completely 100% adult television.  Ok off point...moving right along...

Yes, someting of that caliber (though I don't think attempted rape was the only course of action) had to happen to justify Spike's soul-searching trip to Africa. Yes, it's understandable that Buffy was written to be weak in this scene so that it would go far enough to make Spike want to take that trip. Again, they could have written something with far less disturbing imagery.

This is something I have agreed to on any SR thread.  However, and definitely with a BUT, they still didn't have to go there.  I understand why they did.  I mean even them saying so in the dvd's and shoot even comments to people asking questions on the oh so few comics I did get, they mention why.  It was wrong.  Not so much of the content it was how it was done that was so disturbing.  They took two characters and I still believe this...Out of character.  I see so many canon obsessive people say that isn't true that they were in character.  I look completely aghast, and with 'HUH' also with a side of 'No way'.  What were these canonized people watching???  The writers could have done something like oh say the stupid arc of being the doctor or his story arc with Anya.  Those could have been catalyst to send him to Africa.  They didn't need to go there in SR.  He should have been long gone before then.


I so won't highlight the rest lol.  I believe everything you mentioned Myrabeth.  The writers painted themselves into a corner.  How they say Spike wasn't right for Buffy in their canon is absolutely true.   I actually stopped liking what they tried to represent Buffy as in Season 2.  Yeah I have mentioned a few times I liked her in Season 5...wellll, that's pushing it.  Because try as I might, I don't agree with her continuously hitting Spike just because she could.  If he is such a threat then dust him.  I know viewers gasp in horror at this concept, just as I have, but what they did to him as a character...I can't even put words to.  Sure he is a monster but so is Angel!  What the hell is so damn special about Angel...oh right is soul.  Uh he didn't want that soul!  It was thrusted on him and if you take a gander at his past you see he tried sticking around with the fab foursome.  He was still killing until Darla got fed up!  He wasn't stuck in the sewers for 100 years!  Bad writing cuz in Angel he's off doing other Angelus like acts!  No way do I buy Angel is oh so perfect and so meant for Angel.  Never did and never will.  I may love Spuffy but only for Spike's case because of canon.  Although, speaking to some other writers out there I can totally see Spike with another character.  I'm sorry Scarlet if this offends you...I did not see the whole Angel and Spike thing at all.  I see a vampire line finally coming to grips with their hatred and anger towards each other, but moreso than that?  No.  Grandsire wise maybe.  Potentionally more...Hell with the no!  And, I'm not biased to same sex relationships...I just didn't see it!!!!  I saw Spike become more of an individual on Angel than Btvs.  That I will agree with.  Have agreed to actually.

This is why I have issues with the writers saying Spike is wrong for Buffy.  Why because he is a monster...Then what about Angel?  They are actually pretty gungho when it comes to Angel and Buffy.  I still believe that as writers they aren't realistic in how they view relationships on screen and yeah on comics.  Please name one person who is strictly heterosexual get down and dirty with another female.  Buffy in the canon series was a bit huh with the grossed out when she found out about Willow.  Then I hear everyone has this kind of experience at least once...That this was like one of those moments that just happened.  Doesn't necessarily make her gay.  Uh lots will protest to that!  It makes her bi-sexual.  I didn't read that far into the comics but I have seen snipits of them and heard what Joss has had to say.  I disagree with him lots.  He says it was like experimentaion but hello wouldn't that kind of offend Willow?  It's...I can't explain myself well here, but I just don't get it.  I honestly think the writers take story arcs and go with them.  However, they did that with Willow...so yeah keeping my mouth shut. 

So it all comes down to their ideas and how they come out.  The comics are so far off from the series that they don't count!  They couldn't possibly.  First off its like fanfiction to Joss well to me its a lame attempt...He really should have pushed for anime...That would have been interesting.


So off topic but Myrabeth I agree to pretty much everything you stated...I just went off on a tangent because I saw my Dark Horse email and once again can I add a ughhhhh and a oh god!  But you pretty much nailed it!  Ioved the direction you took it in and so didn't derail it...:)
EM
Jun 17 2009 03:49 am   #46Scarlet Ibis
A little late responding to this but, the long and short of it?

A big ol' "word" to myrabeth's post.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 17 2009 11:32 pm   #47nmcil

I think I will go to my grave never understanding how anyone, let alone mature and intelligent writers from the series, can ever see Angel as a good influence and The Right Partner for Buffy. I would find it very difficult to believe that anyone one of them, if they were parents and as parents, would ever willingly accept Angel/Angelus for any of their daughters or sons. These writers only have to go back to their own series to see what this relationship did to their hero/heroine model - ATTEMPTED MURDER. How is it possible that they can so conveniently forget about this effect from her complete devotion and involvement with this male/vamp character. How is the murder of the Jenny Calendar to be so easily disregarded. The writers created these characters and they should take responsibility for them - especially as the series was such a big hit with young people. If Spike can never be the Right Man and Partner for Buffy - how in the world is Angel/Angelus ever to be an acceptable male consort.

I can accept that while the series was on TV that the writers would support the foundations of the character of Angel/Angelus road of redemption, cursed into being "the good white-hat" - but please, it's utter nonsense to suggest that this character was ever a influence in her life. Isn't Angel/Angelus the character that was reading a book knowing she was going to face her death at the hands of The Master.

And as far as painting themselves into a story arc corners - They could always have changed the parameters of the Angel/Angelus - Spike characters and history if they had wanted to. ESPECIALLY as they developed Spike into such a powerful and potentially excellent mate/consort for Buffy and they had already separated Angel/Angelus firmly into his "road to redemption" with his own series.

The writers turned Spike into the faces of the Christian/Judeo "Fall From The Garden" myth - He became Lucifer and Jesus from episode to episode - talk about "double signals" - as Xander might say "double signal and raise you by 20." From "Tabula Rasa" the vital segue episode from their "coming together kissing scene" in OMWF, they have clearly set Spike up as the "Love's Bitch-Bad Boy Friend-Lousy Man"

Spike: Oh, don't get all prim and proper with me. I know what kind of girl you really are. Don't I.

What can you expect from this line other than, this guy is nothing but trouble ahead. The problem for their desired goal of Spike, the monster and the really Bad Boy/Boy Friend is that it comes right after he saves her life while all her Good Friends and Watcher stand by while she is going to self-immolate.

I find it hard to believe that all these splendid and experience professional writers were not fully aware of how the were writing Spike and how totally he did not fit the "Bad Boy/Bad Boy Friend model. It’s disingenuous to propose Spike in this model, to expect that the viewers not have a powerful connection with the character or to see Spike as much more than just the Big Bad Persona. And it is equally unrealistic to expect that Buffy could be "cleansed of her sins" with "Seeing Red" and that pitiful "Yes" in the "you used me scene."

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.