BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Did Buffy Ever Apologize?

Jun 03 2009 07:53 am   #1Guest
I was having a discussion with a friend when this question came up:

Did Buffy ever apologize to Spike for what she did to him?

I know of her "I'm sorry, William" line when she apologized for breaking off their little affair but what about everything else, like her beating the sh** out of him in Dead Things.
Jun 03 2009 12:20 pm   #2BloodyHell
Not on screen if I remeber correctly.
She was really self-centered...Thank god there's stories where you can change her attitude...
Out. For. A. Walk...Bitch.

Icon by  xheartrockx
Jun 03 2009 01:46 pm   #3slaymesoftly
We never see anything on screen. However, their behavior when he shows up for her birthday is so flirty and friendly that I have a hard time believing that there weren't some off-screen conversations about it.  Something had to happen to make them okay with each other by her birthday. I usually (in my DT fics) assume it's because she regretted her actions and did something to fix it. An apology is the obvious fix required.  I've also read some well-done fics where Spike is justifiably angry at her, but I don't think there's really anything in canon to support that. He is willing to have her take it out on him and even tries to imply she's doing it because she loves him, ("You always hurt the one you love")which gives her the clue that leads her to Warren, so I think an "I'm sorry" from her, or even a non-verbal sign that she was remorseful would have been plenty for him.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jun 03 2009 04:06 pm   #4BecomingChosenGirl13
She did say "I`m sorry about that" on her birthday to him, and then the "I`m sorry, William", but I think that`s pretty much it.

I can`t really say I was jonsing for a Buffy apology other than for the beating (which she did give him, even though it wasn`t "nice" enough :P), when people go St. Spike I go St. Buffy, so it probably has something to do with it :P. I was pretty much Spike pissed for a big part of season seven cause of the attempted rape, so HER telling HIM she was sorry wasn`t really something it thought of as fair..
Jun 03 2009 04:16 pm   #5Guest
I was so angry with Buffy for most of season six because it was as if she never even thought of Spike as a person, but as something to be used by her. Even when she apologized, it felt like she did it to convince herself she was the better person and feel all self-righteous and sure she was doing the right thing, to make herself feel better and not for him or his feelings.
Rape is a very serious issue, and no one can contest that. However, it felt as if for season seven, they didn't really address what happened in their 'relationship' at all. It was like because Spike attacked her in SR, Buffy was totally absolved of all guilt and everybody forgot every bad and heartless thing she did, as well as ignoring all Spike's previous mistakes. They never worked anything out. Spike recognizes Buffy had used him once, Buffy gets all self-righteous and angry at him, Spike is the ultimate villain because of the attempted rape, and then it all kinda fades away when Buffy starts trusting him without saying anything abou trust and ignoring all of season six.

Also, an apology after the darkness and violence of Dead Thing definitely should have been on screen. The writers don't have the right to make everything suddenly okay between them at the birthday party and make us assume they had a great apology and make up scene. It's lazy and slppy and makes the characters incomplete and leaves us out of their feelings and motives for a big scene.
Jun 03 2009 05:50 pm   #6Guest
She did say "I`m sorry about that" on her birthday to him, and then the "I`m sorry, William", but I think that`s pretty much it.

Actually the only sorry to ever come out of her mouth to Spike is "I'm sorry, William."  She never said she was sorry about that to him at her party.  Check transcripts and the show.  She apologizes to Dawn during Older and Far Away.  Her mother, Dawn, friends, Giles, and, even Angel have been sincerely apologized to.  That apology was pathetic to the extreme.  She freaking sleeps with him (Uh no practically begging him to make love to her) then turns around after...oh yeah he has been caught doing this 'doctor job' (which imo...beyond stupid plot wise)...then tells him it's over???  Please that is such a cop out.  Fictional wise in Whedon's mind he needed to make it very clear about good versus evil.  He should never have brought in the soul aspect.  I am off the point.  She whines.  She mopes.  Oh yeah I so don't like Buffy's character at all.  I might love Spuffy through fanfiction and wished that they were shown in a different light on television, but Spike deserved better.  He was once a man who went through a terrible ordeal.  He became a vampire and did what vampires do. 

That's like telling us humans to stop killing animals or better yet for us to stop breathing!  They did what they needed to survive.  We have to put ourselves in the box (Sunnydale world) and quite honestly, I wouldn't want to.  I never liked the writers terms of what was good versus evil.  What deserved forgiveness as opposed to what didn't.  Some people truly find things hard to forgive and hold quite a bit of a grudge against them.  Xander is one.  So is Willow.

The entire cast represses.  There is forgiveness but I actually wonder which is real and which isn't.  Which was true forgiveness?  No one looked for compromise or even a solution, they repressed or denied.  That's just weak.

Because Spike is first evil...He gets no out.  He is still perceived as evil.  Even in Season 7 I don't believe anyone really truly believes he has his soul even when Anya says it.  They didn't trust him.  It was sooo glossed over.  It was looked at as penence for Spike.  I'm still on the line where I feel it wasn't attempted rape as it was devastation.  But that's my opinion.  Rapists or even attempted rapists aren't horrified by what they have done or tried to do.  They gloat.  They revel in it.  Maybe that's not what the director wanted to get across but that is what I saw and still see to this day.  I was still offended by that.

I was extremely offended on what they, the writers, perceived as a heroine.  Cuz, imo, give me She-Ra or Wonder Woman.  Buffy isn't a heroine in my eyes.  She is one mixed up, whiney, stick up the arse, holier than thou *itch I have ever seen.  I would have preferred even as much as I like Buffy's theme about vampires it should have ended at season 5.  Season 6 destroyed it for me.  Season 7 just gave me a bandaid and a pat on the shoulder.

I applaud Spike for not running to Buffy after he became corporeal in Season 5 Angel.  This is coming from a Spuffy lover.  Had Spike got a movie or even a series...I would say find him someone who loves him back in the same way that he loves.  Cuz honestly...Buffy has too many issues and it all started from she didn't want this.  Shoot if I was suddenly supergirl...I would be enjoying every damn minute of it!  I honestly believe that sure it takes two to tango and such but you are responsible for what you do and what you start.  She started soooo many chains of reaction that she couldn't stop them from destroying herself in the long run.

She raped every potential by giving them Power...A power she didn't want.  Her smile at the end to me was oh yeah now I'm not alone let me knock it all on them now.  Ok I have such a hated opinion of Buffy.  Sorry...Just my opinion.

Back to the apology tho.  Nope never happened except when she breaks it off with him because she is feeling better about herself.  The day after her massive abuse on him when he was trying to help her...She doesn't say anything.  Actually she acts like it never happened.  He brings it up and she doesn't say anything to him.

BUFFY
Hey! Passive Aggressive Guy!
Seriously, wanna take it down a notch
or two out there?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Jun 03 2009 05:53 pm   #7Guest
EM - I have no idea what happened to my post but the short of it.  She doesn't apologize.  I was showing the majority of the scenes where they do talk and there isn't any apology.  I'm sorry have no clue what happened there with my post.  Plus I so am not paying attention as I'm at work...lol  Again I'm sorry for the wacky post!
Jun 03 2009 07:37 pm   #8BecomingChosenGirl13
Actually the only sorry to ever come out of her mouth to Spike is "I'm sorry, William."

Well, that`s weird, it watched the episodes a couple of days ago and I specifically remember Spike saying something like "or you`re gonna beat me up again?" and then Buffy says "I`m sorry about that". I`m going to go and check that out now.

Huh, - must have been like the time I`ve obsessed over the fact that the line "The last eight time we did it" (hee hee) wasn`t in Wrecked when i re-watched the season. Apparantly I`m making up my own lines again. Well. That`s just creepy.
Jun 03 2009 07:50 pm   #9Guest
Huh, - must have been like the time I`ve obsessed over the fact that the line "The last eight time we did it" (hee hee) wasn`t in Wrecked when i re-watched the season. Apparantly I`m making up my own lines again. Well. That`s just creepy.

LOL. I do that all the time. I think I do it to keep away the gloom and doom that is season six from my heart.

Nah, she didn`t apologize. "I`m sorry, William" doesn`t really do it in my book.
Jun 03 2009 09:16 pm   #10Guest
Yeah it's hard when you are constantly reading fanfic and things start to blur. 

Honestly, fanfic is soooo much better than the actual show.  I know, it's giving us our fave couple.  But that's not what I'm talking about.  Real serious issues and pretty heavy themes can be written.  Whereas on this show...On regular cable television they have to tone it down.

If it was Max or HBO even FX it would be on a whole different wave length.  More adult.  Then I think it would have been hard to beat even as well as it did on both networks.  I think it would have done better but personally I know the world loves Joss and I'm probably the only one who really doesn't care either way...I think his writing was rather gloom to me.  Sure life isn't all a bunch of roses and clovers but most if I'm not mistaken, at least want to see something measurably happy.  You have issues, you have heartache, and heroics, and gore, and generally people messing up.  But the show, the actual on screen show ended.  Why give such a heartbreaking ending but still have underlying issues hanging there. 

I was given a heck of a lot of sites by another writer and I find Buffy is referred to as the Queen of Slayers.  There is this whole book out there and then a website indicating all these Slayers.  Newsflash...CONFUSING AS *ELL!!!!!!  I thought it was.  I would personally since its fanfiction...Make up my own darn background.  Their History?  It's like listening to a long complicated dialog of how to put some darn piece of complicated furniture together and still it doesn't come out right!  Why not have something simple and to the point?  Guess not but anyway...

The point is apologies seem to work well in the real world but to have them happen right away on the tv...Apparently not.  And apparently we aren't suppose to think Buffy was in the wrong while she abused the crap out of Spike pretty much since he got the chip.  Hey not saying that he was a saint...I loved him as the bad boy and soul man...Actually loved him in anyway they had him...Heehee.  I just get pissy with the hypocrocies of the show where they separate Angel from Angelus and then they do that to Spike when he does not separate himself from soul and demon.  Never mind the apologies...He was atoning...What the hell was Buffy doing?  Denying as always.  Not a heroine in my eyes. 

Ok I totally vented and went off topic but I wanted to stress how things start to really blur from what we actually saw to what we think we saw.  I am not even including the 'gag' comics.  Wow I did that quick lol back to work!

EM
Jun 04 2009 08:17 pm   #11nmcil
Buffy may never have apolgized for her "beat up job" in "Dead Things" but Spike clearly from these lines still want nothing more than to be connected with her - and I think he does forgive her, just like he tells her in the alley - to place all her extreme anger and hatred on him.  The transition from their alley scene in "Dead Things" to the birthday party has to be THE MOST mishandled episode connect in the entire series.  But just like the writers try to rid their heroine model of her violent and extreme acts with her attempted killing and feeding of Faith to cure her boyfriend/lover Angel/Angelus; the brutal attack of this season is again handled with "let's forget all about it Rose Colored Glasses."  And BTW, where was the Watcher and the adult supervision in the whole Faith-Feed incident?  I have to watch the episode again, but does Giles know what her intentions are with regards to Faith?  Talk about sending strange messages out to the young viewers of the series - it makes the whole need to make  Spike as the Big Bad Boyfriend strange indeed considering that they just turned their heroine role model into a wold be murderess.


BUFFY
: (surprised) Spike.

SPIKE: Yeah. Willow mentioned the shindig ... figured we're all part of the team. Thought I'd, uh, swing by
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 04 2009 08:37 pm   #12evangelin
I was extremely offended on what they, the writers, perceived as a heroine. Cuz, imo, give me She-Ra or Wonder Woman. Buffy isn't a heroine in my eyes. She is one mixed up, whiney, stick up the arse, holier than thou *itch I have ever seen. I would have preferred even as much as I like Buffy's theme about vampires it should have ended at season 5. Season 6 destroyed it for me. Season 7 just gave me a bandaid and a pat on the shoulder. I applaud Spike for not running to Buffy after he became corporeal in Season 5 Angel. This is coming from a Spuffy lover. Had Spike got a movie or even a series...I would say find him someone who loves him back in the same way that he loves. Cuz honestly...Buffy has too many issues and it all started from she didn't want this. Shoot if I was suddenly supergirl...I would be enjoying every damn minute of it! I honestly believe that sure it takes two to tango and such but you are responsible for what you do and what you start. She started soooo many chains of reaction that she couldn't stop them from destroying herself in the long run. She raped every potential by giving them Power...A power she didn't want. Her smile at the end to me was oh yeah now I'm not alone let me knock it all on them now. Ok I have such a hated opinion of Buffy. Sorry...Just my opinion.

No, definetely not just your opinion! My opinion, too! I hate Buffy's guts(well, I do!).
About the apology. What can I say, totally in character for Buffy to NOT apologize. The birthday party, totally in character for Spike. He will forgive her EVERYTHING! I wasn't even one bit surprised that he came and helped and didn't blame her.
To sum it up-Buffy doesn't deserve even a glare from Spike! Then again, I've known that all long, haven't I?
Jun 04 2009 09:38 pm   #13nmcil
Here is one of the reason that so many viewers had with the entire "souled vampire" treatment and the extreme difference between how Angel/Angelus and Spike are treated by Buffy and her inner circle.  Spike, without this vital soul element still does all the great things like being tortured by Glory, Brutalized by Buffy, both physically and emotionally, etc. etc. etc.  Why many viewers like myself felt that Buffy needed to acknowledge her conduct, her very morality, in her treatment of Spike.  Their entire arc demanded so much more than the facile "you used me" scene. 

We know that Buffy comes in "Big Time" for Spike in Season Seven, that is where  the writers are redeeming their heroine and her conduct of Season Six, but for many viewers, we needed to hear some real words and act of contrition for where they took the character in Season Six.  Especially as how this series made such a powerful connection with the viewers because it did reflect Real Life.  There is no way that Buffy's actions in her relationship with Spike  could ever have been salvaged or redeemed without a significant apology and acceptance of reprehensible conduct.  Without the catharsis of that vital experience for Spike and Buffy, it felt like a huge part of their story was simply left unfinished.  Even worse, it felt like all the horror and pain they lived through  was getting the "swept under the rug"  treatment.  

What would it have cost the writers to allow some honest and real heart felt sorrow for what Buffy does to Spike in their abusive relationship?  One thing for sure, it would have help redeem  their heroine role model from being seen as an violent and emotional abuser, which is just what how a big part of their prime character is left with.  


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 04 2009 10:20 pm   #14Abby
And so I say, THANK GOD for fan fiction.  We pick up the slack and tackle all those unfinished plot tendrils, and probably more satisfyingly than the writers would have (at least from the view point of us Spuffy fans).
Jun 05 2009 10:06 pm   #15BecomingChosenGirl13
Honestly, fanfic is soooo much better than the actual show. I know, it's giving us our fave couple. But that's not what I'm talking about. Real serious issues and pretty heavy themes can be written. Whereas on this show...On regular cable television they have to tone it down.

Yeah... So true. I love the show, but the Spuffy fanfiction makes the missing pieces actually tie together. I`m actually starting to think of fanfiction as a real part of the show (se above, lol) and that just proves again and again how good the Spuffy fanfiction is. We rock Bangel (*barf*) anyday.

My opinion, too! I hate Buffy's guts(well, I do!).

Haha, normally I would verbally attack you, but for some reason you just made me laugh. So no attacking today :).

I actually had a ton more to respond to, but for some reason the "quote" button is acting all bitchy.
Jun 07 2009 02:05 pm   #16Spikez_tart
My opinion, too! I hate Buffy's guts(well, I do!

Okay, I can see why Buffy gets everybody's panties in a bunch, but if you really hate her, why be a fan of Spuffy?  If she's such a bitch (and a lot of times she is) wouldn't you want Spike to love and have somebody who appreciates him and reciprocates his feelings?  And, if Spike brings out the worst in Buffy, which he seems to do, wouldn't she be better off with Angel?  She abuses him too, but not on such a regular and thorough basis and he doesn't put up with it.   When she pops Angel in the nose, he belts her back. 

Catharis - yes that would have improved things, but as we know, Joss's theory on writing is to NEVER give the audience what it wants.  So, he strings all us Spuffies on throughout S6 and especially S7 thinking that Buffy and Spike will get together until the very last show when Buffy says I love you and Spike rejects her.  Much as I hated that, you have to marvel at the genius that pulls that stunt which keeps his audience cranked up for six years after the show is gone. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jun 07 2009 04:27 pm   #17slaymesoftly
Nicely said, Tart. All of it. Saved me the trouble. :)
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jun 07 2009 08:20 pm   #18Spikez_tart
Thanks  slay - I've often wondered where Buffy got the idea that hitting people was a good way to manage her personal affairs.  Kendra is pretty quick with a knife and Faith is violent, too, although with her you can understand that she had a bad childhood.  So, is it a Slayer thing, or something Buffy learned from Dad?  (We never see Joyce give Dawn or Buffy a good swat, so it isn't her.) 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jun 07 2009 09:49 pm   #19slaymesoftly
*shrugs* I've always gone along with the idea that it's a slayer thing. You can't expect these girls to go out night after night fighting , getting injured, and killing things without giving them a taste for violence. Probably comes from the original demon source of their power.  We never get any sense that slayers practice any kung fu-type "retaliate only" form of fighting. They're all about the stake first and ask questions later.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jun 08 2009 07:16 am   #20Guest
Actually, if you go way back Buffy was on the rough side with Pike.  So if you take that into context with the series then you can say it was the Slayer thing.  However, she takes it really far...She has a superior complex with an inferior complex.

Whether people like Spuffy or not was inspired by what we saw and those fans then fell in love with what they have read in fan fiction.  I went constantly back and forth and thought they were great for each other canon...And then wanted to slap Buffy half the time.  So yeah most will go back and forth with Buffy.  Loving Spuffy I believe has nothing to do with canon so much as it has to do with what people have seen through others creativity.  I wasn't a Bangel fan either.  I personally thought Buffy needed a complete personality make over.  If it were up to most then yeah we would have changed it because you do see an amazing dynamic between the actors and their characters.  You get a sense of more than there was given to us and that is what made most fans wish and want Spuffy.  Didn't mean they didn't want Buffy to change her attitude...Cuz really hers needed a complete 360.  Most will agree while some won't.  Thats the way of the world I guess.  Some view the show differently and see different points whereas those see it another way.  No one view will be the same, but the majority will find that yeah she is a Slayer.  She, imvho, bullied because of this power.  To people of lower status I can understand in a way why she was kicked out of her own home because of her decisions.  But, yet again, it's all up for debate and will be nitpicked til the cows come home or the fat lady sings...Its never going to end until its decimated to nothing.  You can only use she is the Slayer for so long.  Same with Giles being a Watcher...Same with Xander being just a human with his decisions...and so on...There wasn't one person or character on the show that wasn't twisted and mutilated to some point...  Some of it was sick and twisted but thats show biz for you...It's all in the entertainment.  Who are we to judge except try to make it better in our own eyes through fan fiction or finding something else to focus on.

I think I have totally become neutral on this topic because like it or not we can debate and debate and throw comments back which is great and all, but the downside is complicated.  Everything was wrong with the show...Everything worked with the show...Everything worked or it didn't...Buffy still didn't apologize...You can't keep blaming her Slayerness because then we would have to say that Angel is the same as soulless Spike...That there is a darkness to Slayers exists meaning Faith, Kendra, and Buffy were the same...When they weren't.  Kendra we didn't see enough of, but she was a 'eh' fighter.  Faith had one messed up background which add power to that, gave her more power when fighting.  You have that kind of past, oh yeah, you're going to use it.  Buffy didn't have that...If anything it was more of abandonment issues if anything...So there was no reason whatsoever she should have been so abusive as she was.  It wasn't because of the Slayer.  My opinion she was angry because well, Buffy didn't get what Buffy wanted.  This is a norm for most, but still doesn't make it right.  She is supposed to be the epitome of good, isn't she?  Being a bully isn't being good.  That's showing yet again - she held the power and control.  Has nothing to do with whether we liked Buffy, but has to do with what she had the potential to be in what we could have seen, instead of what was given to us.  But fan fiction writers can change that...That's what makes us believe...

We can hate her guts or think she should be different doesn't change what we believe should be or could've been.  We can dream, right?
Jun 08 2009 07:26 am   #21Guest
I forgot to sign the above Guest...That was me EM or I can be called Eliza.  Thanks :)  I was terrible debater in highschool, so I'm trying...Heehee.  I tend to be stubborn so I do apologize for this beforehand if I just can't be swayed...So please don't take it offensively or even defensively...I'm relearning the whole side of what it means to have an opinion...But, I think everyone will always have their own opinions LOL...It's awesome because then this world would just be so damn dull!!!!
Jun 08 2009 07:50 am   #22nmcil
Okay, I can see why Buffy gets everybody's panties in a bunch, but if you really hate her, why be a fan of Spuffy? If she's such a bitch (and a lot of times she is) wouldn't you want Spike to love and have somebody who appreciates him and reciprocates his feelings?

What I find interesting is how much I love seeing and reading these two character in a relationship.  I don't even read much of Spike centric fiction - and I don't even like Spike with any other female character - It's the Spuffy relationship that I have always found compelling.  Another thing that I really love about the Buffyverse series is how much it has done to bring out the creativity in so many people.  How many people took up writing that would probably not have done so without the having been so deeply effected by the series?  It was a perfect combination of an awesome visual and dramatic experience and the new technology of the Internet.  I think it's wonderful how fandoms now interact with what is done in film and television -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 08 2009 08:36 am   #23Guest
It's like a whole new universe was created NMCIL!  I found all this in 2006.  Two years after Angel ended and three after Buffy ended.  I found it by accident!  This was after I was making videos of Spuffy.  So it's amazing how far a movie inspired a series to literally the comics they do - to the fans taking it further in their own world...Sigh, it's difficult to get involved in the entertainment industry...I know because of people I have known and grown up with who have tried...It's not easy and it is all down to lots of factors.  But I agree its wonderful how this brought literally thousands of people together for one couple they wished were more than they were!

EM
Jun 08 2009 02:41 pm   #24evangelin
Okay, I can see why Buffy gets everybody's panties in a bunch, but if you really hate her, why be a fan of Spuffy? If she's such a bitch (and a lot of times she is) wouldn't you want Spike to love and have somebody who appreciates him and reciprocates his feelings?

Actually, I DO want for Spike someone who will love him back as much as he loves them BUT:
1. I think that it's impossible for anyone to love like Spike loves!
2. Spike loves Buffy and always will so the other person in the Spike/other relationship will be in a very bad position!
3. Spike wants Buffy and my motto is "What Spike wants that Spike should get!"

Other than that I simply love the Spuffy relationship and not ONLY in fanfiction. I love how they're themselves when they are together, how they always got each other's backs, how they fight, how they argue, how they kiss, how they talk, how they yell, I love EVERYTHING about them. I'm a absolute Spuffy fan! I like love that's tough not the easy "I fell in love with you in the moment I saw you sucking a lollipop!" kind of love!

And, though, I'm a Spuffy fan, I like EVERY couple that has Spike in it. I just love him too much so I find something charming in Spike/Ania, Spike/Faith, Spike/Harmony, Spike/Tara(but that's probably because of Chance) and I find LOTS of good stuff in Spike/Dru, Spike/Willow and especially Spike/Fred or Illirya(that would have probably been my choice for him)!

But, yeah, I love Spuffy the most! Why? Because I love Spike and Spike loves Buffy!
Jun 08 2009 11:34 pm   #25nmcil
There must be something really wrong about me and my Spike Love - any character outside of Buffy with Spike just does not fit my Spike and Buffyverse Love.  And not to flame or disparage any of the works from the excellent Buffyverse Fan Fiction community - sometimes when Spike is paired with an original character,  the works feel like the writer is sublimating their own desires or "anti-buffy" issues onto the story.  

Spike with another love interest has to be done really well and to be a very plausible situation for it to work, IMVHO.  I guess that what I feel with Spuffy is that their relationship is being completed but with the added "magic" of completion in so many wonderful variation.

Having said this - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE - would some of the excellent writers here consider creating some works - stories or just your thoughts about The Buffyverse in this 12 year anniversary to go along with some of the images that I am creating.  Here is the link where you can see some of the completed images:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 08 2009 11:35 pm   #26Abby
I think, although the Spuffy in canon didn't go as well as we would like, it's the potential for it that, at least for me, is the draw of Spuffy.  And again, that's where fanfic was possibly the most brillant invention ever, because we can take that potential and go wild with it, the way it should be.
Jun 09 2009 02:46 am   #27Spikez_tart
Nmcil - did you ever get your S8 comic book going - i've got a plot ...  I will check out your new stuff which is always great. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jun 09 2009 05:58 am   #28Scarlet Ibis

Agree with pretty much everything EM said in her second to last post as well as Abelina.  The draw is the potential of what could have been, which is one of the main points of fan fiction.  Also yes, part of the reason is that I want Spike to get who and/or what he wants, and the only way to remedy that is through fan fic.  I do not think they worked in canon, but had the potential to work at one point, or a couple of points in time, really, which again, brings us back to fan fic.  Canonly speaking for Spike, I'd say Angel was best suited for him for a number of reasons. 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 09 2009 07:50 pm   #29nmcil
Nmcil - did you ever get your S8 comic book going - i've got a plot ... I will check out your new stuff which is always great.

I did not get beyond the covers - but will be very happy to work with you on a Fan Fiction Comic -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.