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BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
What's with all the Dawn/Xander!?
Oct 07 2009 01:28 pm #1Jane
Guest
Is it just me or are more authors suddenly pairing Dawn and Xander together. Even on this site, I've seen a couple instances.
Is it the comics? [I don't read them]
Or has everyone suddenly forgotten the Dawn had a first row seat at how horribly Xander treated Anya, how controlling he is (or tries to be), and how much of a lying bastard he can be, even to the people he calls 'friends'.
Personally, if nothing else, I'd never even consider DATING the guy who jilted Anya at the altar, abandoning a woman totally devoted to him. Guys, in case you haven't figured this out yet: that ranks as one of the most humiliating and degrading thing you can do to a woman. If you're having second thoughts, it takes months to plan a wedding, and if you do feel like you have to back out, don't leave it until the moment she's facing all of her friends and family!
Xander not only ruined what was supposed to be the happiest day of her life but he did it in such a way that he left her alone and humiliated in front of EVERYONE she cared about... and Dawn had a first row seat at seeing Anya utterly destroyed.
And then the bastard had the nerve to come back a few days later and try to win her back as if he had merely forgotten an anniversary, expecting her to just forgive and forget, and then when Anya slept with Spike, he had the utter gall to act like the cuckholded husband!
And yet I've read two stories on this site alone that have Dawn marrying Xander... [shake head]
Jane
Is it the comics? [I don't read them]
Or has everyone suddenly forgotten the Dawn had a first row seat at how horribly Xander treated Anya, how controlling he is (or tries to be), and how much of a lying bastard he can be, even to the people he calls 'friends'.
Personally, if nothing else, I'd never even consider DATING the guy who jilted Anya at the altar, abandoning a woman totally devoted to him. Guys, in case you haven't figured this out yet: that ranks as one of the most humiliating and degrading thing you can do to a woman. If you're having second thoughts, it takes months to plan a wedding, and if you do feel like you have to back out, don't leave it until the moment she's facing all of her friends and family!
Xander not only ruined what was supposed to be the happiest day of her life but he did it in such a way that he left her alone and humiliated in front of EVERYONE she cared about... and Dawn had a first row seat at seeing Anya utterly destroyed.
And then the bastard had the nerve to come back a few days later and try to win her back as if he had merely forgotten an anniversary, expecting her to just forgive and forget, and then when Anya slept with Spike, he had the utter gall to act like the cuckholded husband!
And yet I've read two stories on this site alone that have Dawn marrying Xander... [shake head]
Jane
Personally, I seriously dislike Xander, and what he did to Anya ranks really low in my list of reasons why. Still, I've had him flirt with Dawn, and if the story was longer I'd have them end up together.
The reason I give him that chance is simple: redemption. I believe anyone can achieve it, and if the writers make it so that we see Xander become a better man, I have no problems with it.
After all, we all love Spike, who used to be a killer--even though love's bitch--why not give someone else the chance to overcome his pettiness, and if he manages to, why not pair him up with Dawn?
Sotia
PS. Buffy had a front row seat to Spike offering to kill his previous love(r), why do we want them to end up together?
The reason I give him that chance is simple: redemption. I believe anyone can achieve it, and if the writers make it so that we see Xander become a better man, I have no problems with it.
After all, we all love Spike, who used to be a killer--even though love's bitch--why not give someone else the chance to overcome his pettiness, and if he manages to, why not pair him up with Dawn?
Sotia
PS. Buffy had a front row seat to Spike offering to kill his previous love(r), why do we want them to end up together?
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Oct 07 2009 03:19 pm #3BandS
Guest
The comics? Are on a whole other level, it's not even funny. First Dawn sleeps with, and correct me if I'm wrong, her boyfriends friend or roomate? Boyfriend or the guy she sleeps with supersizes Dawn into a Giant. Then if I'm not mistaken she is some sort of monster, and THEN she is a Centaur???? You think being a key - human girl was enough, but no they had to give her this ridiculous arc in the comics. Honestly, because my memory is somewhat clouded of the comics, this was why I stopped reading them. It was beyond insane. I get creativity and imagination, but come on!
I don't think it's just the comics Jane. I have seen them paired together a lot. Though, at the time, I didn't mind it because that Xander was written differently than canon. So then it slides.
However, I do agree with you - with why anyone would pair Dawn and Xander together if they stuck closely to canon. Canon-wise Xander did get closer to Dawn on some level in Season 7 but he was straddling that line with Anya? Personally, and realistically, I would think Anya would not have anything to do with him after - but Joss doesn't look at the true psychological level of how humiliating and devastating it feels to be left at the alter. I actually think that is up there in emotional, economical, and mental abuse. Which, btw, is exactly how Xander treats Anya in the first place. He controls everything she does because she used to be human, and doesn't know how to be human? UH HELLO! She was once human, albeit a long time ago, but still. Even as Aud and another time period she was human. Lots of 'controlling' aspects from Xander in this relationship when Anyanka turns human again. I am not a big fan of Anya and Xander. Never was, and never will be. Personally I felt even Giles was better with Anya than Xander. Or and yes I know I am a Spuffy fan, but I also do like Anya and Spike. Those two make a LOT of sense. And honestly, their one night stand? Was so damn touching and hot I was like woh...If there had been more? I would be shipping a different couple or quite possible both.
Also is it me, but wasn't Anya a Vengeance Demon during that or was it after that happened? If I was a writer for that show and it happened after that - I would have gone for her turning Vengeance-y right after being left at the alter, not that with Spike. That right there was...See yeah, this couple I didn't like. Personally, he would have been better with Harmony. I don't get why he was considered the 'heart' of the group when he actually did quite a bit of wrong throughout the entire show. He had his moments of 'goodness' here and there, but overall? Nope. He tried, but I truly believe he was so screwed up that even if he tried to get out he would still be affected by it.
Now as far as Dawn and Xander? I don't get this pairing. You're absolutely right. But then again, what one woman/girl saw, the next might not. It doesn't mean it applies to the possible mate. I will give Xander that much respect because he does change in Season 7. He matures, but slightly. He still has those qualities of controlling, except, I liked Season 7 Xander. He showed growth but at the same time glossing over everything he had done. It was never acknowledged or even discussed that he caused some problems. So even though I liked him that season, I was questioning how could he go from that to this in a new season? It's the writing, I suppose. It was unrealistic. But hey it's TV.
And not because I love Spike or anything, but out of every single male ever on that show? I still love and will keep with my ship of fave character ever - Spike. He had the most and sensible journey. It didn't happen over night. In fact it happened throughout the show. Then continued to do so even after Buffy was over, and he went to AtS. His growth was amazing to watch. He was so complex and he brought to the show more chemistry than I haver ever seen that was so diverse. He fit anywhere! Probably put Spike in Harry Potter and he would still work!
Ok so I got a tad of topic, I have been ranting, oops! Sorry between my computer problems and my outside cable ripping from the line - I have been itching to get back online...So I agree. Frankly, I don't ever pair them, but if I ever did or read them this way? I wouldn't do it from a canon pov. Alternate Universe or Reality...Just my opinion.
Good topic!
I don't think it's just the comics Jane. I have seen them paired together a lot. Though, at the time, I didn't mind it because that Xander was written differently than canon. So then it slides.
However, I do agree with you - with why anyone would pair Dawn and Xander together if they stuck closely to canon. Canon-wise Xander did get closer to Dawn on some level in Season 7 but he was straddling that line with Anya? Personally, and realistically, I would think Anya would not have anything to do with him after - but Joss doesn't look at the true psychological level of how humiliating and devastating it feels to be left at the alter. I actually think that is up there in emotional, economical, and mental abuse. Which, btw, is exactly how Xander treats Anya in the first place. He controls everything she does because she used to be human, and doesn't know how to be human? UH HELLO! She was once human, albeit a long time ago, but still. Even as Aud and another time period she was human. Lots of 'controlling' aspects from Xander in this relationship when Anyanka turns human again. I am not a big fan of Anya and Xander. Never was, and never will be. Personally I felt even Giles was better with Anya than Xander. Or and yes I know I am a Spuffy fan, but I also do like Anya and Spike. Those two make a LOT of sense. And honestly, their one night stand? Was so damn touching and hot I was like woh...If there had been more? I would be shipping a different couple or quite possible both.
Also is it me, but wasn't Anya a Vengeance Demon during that or was it after that happened? If I was a writer for that show and it happened after that - I would have gone for her turning Vengeance-y right after being left at the alter, not that with Spike. That right there was...See yeah, this couple I didn't like. Personally, he would have been better with Harmony. I don't get why he was considered the 'heart' of the group when he actually did quite a bit of wrong throughout the entire show. He had his moments of 'goodness' here and there, but overall? Nope. He tried, but I truly believe he was so screwed up that even if he tried to get out he would still be affected by it.
Now as far as Dawn and Xander? I don't get this pairing. You're absolutely right. But then again, what one woman/girl saw, the next might not. It doesn't mean it applies to the possible mate. I will give Xander that much respect because he does change in Season 7. He matures, but slightly. He still has those qualities of controlling, except, I liked Season 7 Xander. He showed growth but at the same time glossing over everything he had done. It was never acknowledged or even discussed that he caused some problems. So even though I liked him that season, I was questioning how could he go from that to this in a new season? It's the writing, I suppose. It was unrealistic. But hey it's TV.
And not because I love Spike or anything, but out of every single male ever on that show? I still love and will keep with my ship of fave character ever - Spike. He had the most and sensible journey. It didn't happen over night. In fact it happened throughout the show. Then continued to do so even after Buffy was over, and he went to AtS. His growth was amazing to watch. He was so complex and he brought to the show more chemistry than I haver ever seen that was so diverse. He fit anywhere! Probably put Spike in Harry Potter and he would still work!
Ok so I got a tad of topic, I have been ranting, oops! Sorry between my computer problems and my outside cable ripping from the line - I have been itching to get back online...So I agree. Frankly, I don't ever pair them, but if I ever did or read them this way? I wouldn't do it from a canon pov. Alternate Universe or Reality...Just my opinion.
Good topic!
I have to admit that I'm not a fan of Xander. He's my least favorite of the main characters.
I have seen Dawn and Xander paired together before. It's nothing new. Every writer has their own ideas about the characters. Because of my own biased against the guy, I have a hard time pairing Xander with anyone, except canon pairings in their appropriate seasons. To me, he's physically unattractive and a jerk. My already good opinion of Cordy went way up when she dumped him. He did mellow out a little in S7, but by that time I was beyond caring about him or what he did. Dawn and Xander had one nice conversation in S7 that I can remember. She had a crush on him when she was young. But the way I see it, Xander only saw her as Buffy's kid sister. I personally don't see the pairing. But it doesn't bother me if an author puts them together. I just don't feel strongly enough for either character to muster up the energy to get excited about it. :)
But, because I read mostly Spuffy fics and I'm here for that pairing alone, it doesn't bother me in the least if a writer puts in non-canon pairings. It's their story. Pair Spike with Xander or even hint at it in a Spuffy story for any length of time and I'm out of there. In fact, I'd have the author on my list to never read again. *shivers* Spander makes me want to hurl.
That's the great thing about fan fiction. There is a lot of it for our fandom. If you just can't abide a certain pairing, even if it's just a small thing in the background, then you have the option to just stop reading the story. Not everyone is going to think like you do.
I have seen Dawn and Xander paired together before. It's nothing new. Every writer has their own ideas about the characters. Because of my own biased against the guy, I have a hard time pairing Xander with anyone, except canon pairings in their appropriate seasons. To me, he's physically unattractive and a jerk. My already good opinion of Cordy went way up when she dumped him. He did mellow out a little in S7, but by that time I was beyond caring about him or what he did. Dawn and Xander had one nice conversation in S7 that I can remember. She had a crush on him when she was young. But the way I see it, Xander only saw her as Buffy's kid sister. I personally don't see the pairing. But it doesn't bother me if an author puts them together. I just don't feel strongly enough for either character to muster up the energy to get excited about it. :)
But, because I read mostly Spuffy fics and I'm here for that pairing alone, it doesn't bother me in the least if a writer puts in non-canon pairings. It's their story. Pair Spike with Xander or even hint at it in a Spuffy story for any length of time and I'm out of there. In fact, I'd have the author on my list to never read again. *shivers* Spander makes me want to hurl.
That's the great thing about fan fiction. There is a lot of it for our fandom. If you just can't abide a certain pairing, even if it's just a small thing in the background, then you have the option to just stop reading the story. Not everyone is going to think like you do.
Oct 07 2009 06:46 pm #5Tammy
Guest
Yeah, it's in the comics, which I will never read. Dawn to me will and always be like a little sister to Xander, them hooking up is just wrong on so many levels, even if she's not a kid anymore. That's as bad as Dawn hooking up with Spike, who also thought of her as nothing but a sister. And I'm totally disagreeing with all the Xander hate, I love him, he's not a bad guy and I hate when everyone treats him as such. It's the same thing with Riley. Sure, he made some mistakes, but so did everyone else, and at least he's learning from them. Spike has done a lot worse, and yet we still love him.
Oct 07 2009 10:25 pm #6Scarf Pet
Guest
Xander's made a lot of mistakes, yes, but I don't hate him. In fact, I like him all right.
It would be terribly hypocritical of me to hate/vehemently dislike Xander due to his relationship mistakes alone, and then go and love Spike and Angel so much. Besides, if I needed a reason to dislike him, that wouldn't make my top three. Maybe my top five, but I'd still have to ponder that :P
It would be terribly hypocritical of me to hate/vehemently dislike Xander due to his relationship mistakes alone, and then go and love Spike and Angel so much. Besides, if I needed a reason to dislike him, that wouldn't make my top three. Maybe my top five, but I'd still have to ponder that :P
Oct 07 2009 10:26 pm #7Scarlet
Guest
That, and I think an older Dawn and Xander make sense. That moment in "Potential" kind of proved it for me.
Dawn had a more brother relationship with Spike and not Xander. Xander was more like Buffy's brother--not Dawn's.
Dawn had a more brother relationship with Spike and not Xander. Xander was more like Buffy's brother--not Dawn's.
Oct 07 2009 11:19 pm #8slaymesoftly
Moderator
Hee! So, Dawn, You won't read me anymore? LOL I can use Xander in a lot of ways, and I have no problem seeing him with an adult Dawn. People who've been through a lot together either want no reminders around, or they tend to cling to the people with the same experiences. I can see them getting together because they've already survived so much.
Xander can be a villain if you stress some of his less-pleasant characteristics, or he can be a good guy if you stress others. Like all Joss's characters, he's got multiple layers.
Xander can be a villain if you stress some of his less-pleasant characteristics, or he can be a good guy if you stress others. Like all Joss's characters, he's got multiple layers.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
I think the reason they pair Dawn with Xander is that Dawn never had a love interest on the show, and after Anya died there was no one for Xander. So you have these two spare characters hanging around, what to do with them? Put them together.
Plus Dawn did have that crush on Xander in season 5. And I think Dawn and Xander understood each other very well.
Plus Dawn did have that crush on Xander in season 5. And I think Dawn and Xander understood each other very well.
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Oct 08 2009 12:47 am #10Immortal Beloved
Hmm...Dawn/Xander. Would that be Dander? You know, like cat dander. Ha! I kill me. :-P
Personally, I seriously dislike Xander, and what he did to Anya ranks really low in my list of reasons why
Ditto. His leaving Anya at the altar is cowardly, but his hypocrisy, immaturity, dishonesty, and judgmental attitude outweigh the yellow stripe down his back by leaps and bounds.
I have to admit that I'm not a fan of Xander. He's my least favorite of the main characters.
Ditto again.
He did mellow out a little in S7, but by that time I was beyond caring about him or what he did.
Word.
It would be terribly hypocritical of me to hate/vehemently dislike Xander due to his relationship mistakes alone, and then go and love Spike and Angel so much.
I love Spike, and Angel does have some good points (even though he can annoy me to no end); but I don't like Xander, perhaps even vehemently so. However, my liking some characters and disliking others hardly ever has anything to do with their relationships with the other characters. It's the actual character trait that causes them to treat others the way that they do, and that's what I don't like. Also, there are just certain character traits that I cannot abide by, and Xander has most of them. :-P Whereas Spike and Angel's bad points are lower on my list of dislikes. So, love Spike, don't mind Angel (as long as he's nowhere near Buffy), and can't stand Xander. Just the way it is...
ETA: Oh, yeah, the actual topic: Dawn and Xander don't bother that much, as long as it's believable.
ETA Again: Quote's not working. Forgive me. Can't remember how to format on here.
Personally, I seriously dislike Xander, and what he did to Anya ranks really low in my list of reasons why
Ditto. His leaving Anya at the altar is cowardly, but his hypocrisy, immaturity, dishonesty, and judgmental attitude outweigh the yellow stripe down his back by leaps and bounds.
I have to admit that I'm not a fan of Xander. He's my least favorite of the main characters.
Ditto again.
He did mellow out a little in S7, but by that time I was beyond caring about him or what he did.
Word.
It would be terribly hypocritical of me to hate/vehemently dislike Xander due to his relationship mistakes alone, and then go and love Spike and Angel so much.
I love Spike, and Angel does have some good points (even though he can annoy me to no end); but I don't like Xander, perhaps even vehemently so. However, my liking some characters and disliking others hardly ever has anything to do with their relationships with the other characters. It's the actual character trait that causes them to treat others the way that they do, and that's what I don't like. Also, there are just certain character traits that I cannot abide by, and Xander has most of them. :-P Whereas Spike and Angel's bad points are lower on my list of dislikes. So, love Spike, don't mind Angel (as long as he's nowhere near Buffy), and can't stand Xander. Just the way it is...
ETA: Oh, yeah, the actual topic: Dawn and Xander don't bother that much, as long as it's believable.
ETA Again: Quote's not working. Forgive me. Can't remember how to format on here.
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Oct 08 2009 04:56 am #11Spikez_tart
Dander - perfect! I don't see them as a couple, maybe because Dawn had that crush on him as a little girl. There's no chemistry on the show. Of course, as long as it's not Spawn, it's okay.
I am not a big fan of Anya and Xander. Never was, and never will be. - me either. It just never feels right in the same hot way that you get with Angel/Buffy and Spike/Buffy. You just don't quite believe the two of them could get along for more than a week without killing each other.
The crowning moment of the whole wedding debacle has to be when Anya says she gets to spend her life with her best friend ... then Xander dumps her. Joss gets it. If Xander wasn't a total louse, he would have made the annoucement himself or asked the minister or somebody to do it.
Xander - sometimes he's good and sometimes he sucks. Depends on what he's doing. Possibly his stupid obsession over Buffy is the problem.
Spanya - they don't really work together for the same reason Buffy and Riley don't work together - they're too much alike. They have a certain amount of chemistry, but you don't get the constant battles that you do with Spuffy that are so much fun.
I am not a big fan of Anya and Xander. Never was, and never will be. - me either. It just never feels right in the same hot way that you get with Angel/Buffy and Spike/Buffy. You just don't quite believe the two of them could get along for more than a week without killing each other.
The crowning moment of the whole wedding debacle has to be when Anya says she gets to spend her life with her best friend ... then Xander dumps her. Joss gets it. If Xander wasn't a total louse, he would have made the annoucement himself or asked the minister or somebody to do it.
Xander - sometimes he's good and sometimes he sucks. Depends on what he's doing. Possibly his stupid obsession over Buffy is the problem.
Spanya - they don't really work together for the same reason Buffy and Riley don't work together - they're too much alike. They have a certain amount of chemistry, but you don't get the constant battles that you do with Spuffy that are so much fun.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
LOL! Slayme, you know I read your stuff! I even read the Spander. I was saying that I will not read stories that say they are Spuffy but have any reference to Spike and Xander ever having a thing at some point in the past or in the story. There are some talented writers who write more than one pairing. If they are clearly labeled Spike/Xander, I don't read them. But I'll read their other pairings. You were the exception to my rule. Mostly because I was curious as to how you would write it. I thought you did a great job, but I don't really want to encourage you... I like when you put Spike in the Torchwood verse. Hint, hint.
Oct 08 2009 07:57 am #13BandS
Guest
Spanya - they don't really work together for the same reason Buffy and Riley don't work together - they're too much alike. They have a certain amount of chemistry, but you don't get the constant battles that you do with Spuffy that are so much fun.
(I hope that sourcing worked lol! The above is quoted from spikez_tart! Actually, you can't possibly place Spanya in the same category as Biley. Why? That was a relationship. Spanya was a one night stand. I really didn't like Riley at all. Cripes he reminded me of my mother - all stuck up the arse, and prim and proper, strict guidelines, and I could go on. My mother isn't military background, but she might as well have been, lol. I also have a comment - no Joss doesn't get it. He won't ever get the amount of inner turmoil that comes with the power of leaving someone in such a cruel and manipulative way. He just left and no word at all. He comes back later and begs for forgiveness. No uh uh. He only understands one thing...Pain. Suffering. Control and yeah I am not a big fan of Whedon's...Sorry, I may have liked the show to a certain extent, but as far as his vision? No, I want a program to escape where - yes there is learning, pain, and struggles - but there is also hope, love, and all the things one wouldn't experience in RL. Geez, Law and Order: SVU - though heartbreaking at times seems to come out of that morbid and move to the progress and 'good' stages. Kind of why I don't praise the guy...Sorry if some are fans. I wasn't and this seemed to be such a joint effort anyway, but with his final say. As far as Spanya goes? There isn't enough to say they're too much alike. On some levels yeah they are. If it had gone further - which, is what I'm talking about - would have been interesting to see, and quite possibly, changed my ship or been a ship of both. I don't think anyone could say that Anya and Spike could have had the constant battles that Spuffy have that are so much fun, as you put. It would have been different. They could have had their own type of angst, quipping, and fun. I don't like Spuffy because of that. I like the chemistry they had on screen. The quipping was funny, sure, but the chemistry was electrifying. Anya and Spike in that one moment had it, because they were both feeling a tremendous loss. It had potential to really shake up those Spuffy shippers that's for sure - had it gone further. But it didn't. I was merely pointing out - had it gone further? I would have been struggling with whom to ship for or quite possibly shipping both. The same would be said if Tara and Spike were shipped. Although, with that one I lean more towards friendship, sisterly. I could never and totally can't stomach Spawn - like ever. I could if I have to stomach Dander (giggles). I read some sleazy threesome fic between Buffy, Dawn, and Spike - bee lined it to the bathroom. I was mortified. Written pretty well, (no I don't remember who), just wasn't my preference...cuz ewww? Also I don't completely hate him I just dislike him. I know, huh, right? I don't hate any characters, just dislike some of them. I have Xander, Angel, Riley, some Buffy, and Willow issues. Not many Giles, Tara, Dawn, Andrew, Cordy, or Wes issues. Oh strike that I did loathe two characters like a plague - Warren and Kennedy. Warren was idk bad acting or something? Nope not a fan. Kennedy annoyed and gave me an immense headache. Before I got completely tangent-y I get what your saying about Anya and Xander...I don't remember who (sort of going huh at the tv right now, lol), but someone mentioned that Xander and Dawn coming together after Xander loses Anya, and Dawn never really being with anyone - makes sense. However, I think she had that vibe of fitting more with Andrew for awhile there. They cracked me up whereas Xander and Dawn, made me yawn - canon wise. Uh, crap, I didn't know the actress who played Harmony (drawing blank think its Mercedes or something lol) is on Hatchet? Yeah watching a gory movie and should be in bed...
(I hope that sourcing worked lol! The above is quoted from spikez_tart! Actually, you can't possibly place Spanya in the same category as Biley. Why? That was a relationship. Spanya was a one night stand. I really didn't like Riley at all. Cripes he reminded me of my mother - all stuck up the arse, and prim and proper, strict guidelines, and I could go on. My mother isn't military background, but she might as well have been, lol. I also have a comment - no Joss doesn't get it. He won't ever get the amount of inner turmoil that comes with the power of leaving someone in such a cruel and manipulative way. He just left and no word at all. He comes back later and begs for forgiveness. No uh uh. He only understands one thing...Pain. Suffering. Control and yeah I am not a big fan of Whedon's...Sorry, I may have liked the show to a certain extent, but as far as his vision? No, I want a program to escape where - yes there is learning, pain, and struggles - but there is also hope, love, and all the things one wouldn't experience in RL. Geez, Law and Order: SVU - though heartbreaking at times seems to come out of that morbid and move to the progress and 'good' stages. Kind of why I don't praise the guy...Sorry if some are fans. I wasn't and this seemed to be such a joint effort anyway, but with his final say. As far as Spanya goes? There isn't enough to say they're too much alike. On some levels yeah they are. If it had gone further - which, is what I'm talking about - would have been interesting to see, and quite possibly, changed my ship or been a ship of both. I don't think anyone could say that Anya and Spike could have had the constant battles that Spuffy have that are so much fun, as you put. It would have been different. They could have had their own type of angst, quipping, and fun. I don't like Spuffy because of that. I like the chemistry they had on screen. The quipping was funny, sure, but the chemistry was electrifying. Anya and Spike in that one moment had it, because they were both feeling a tremendous loss. It had potential to really shake up those Spuffy shippers that's for sure - had it gone further. But it didn't. I was merely pointing out - had it gone further? I would have been struggling with whom to ship for or quite possibly shipping both. The same would be said if Tara and Spike were shipped. Although, with that one I lean more towards friendship, sisterly. I could never and totally can't stomach Spawn - like ever. I could if I have to stomach Dander (giggles). I read some sleazy threesome fic between Buffy, Dawn, and Spike - bee lined it to the bathroom. I was mortified. Written pretty well, (no I don't remember who), just wasn't my preference...cuz ewww? Also I don't completely hate him I just dislike him. I know, huh, right? I don't hate any characters, just dislike some of them. I have Xander, Angel, Riley, some Buffy, and Willow issues. Not many Giles, Tara, Dawn, Andrew, Cordy, or Wes issues. Oh strike that I did loathe two characters like a plague - Warren and Kennedy. Warren was idk bad acting or something? Nope not a fan. Kennedy annoyed and gave me an immense headache. Before I got completely tangent-y I get what your saying about Anya and Xander...I don't remember who (sort of going huh at the tv right now, lol), but someone mentioned that Xander and Dawn coming together after Xander loses Anya, and Dawn never really being with anyone - makes sense. However, I think she had that vibe of fitting more with Andrew for awhile there. They cracked me up whereas Xander and Dawn, made me yawn - canon wise. Uh, crap, I didn't know the actress who played Harmony (drawing blank think its Mercedes or something lol) is on Hatchet? Yeah watching a gory movie and should be in bed...
Oct 08 2009 07:59 am #14BandS
Guest
Uh, why isn't the paragraph thing working? Did I do something wrong? I had paragraphs and everything after I sourced...Did this possibly do that?
Spanya - they don't really work together for the same reason Buffy and Riley don't work together - they're too much alike. They have a certain amount of chemistry, but you don't get the constant battles that you do with Spuffy that are so much fun.
I don't much care for Spanya. but in Tabula Rasa, the chemistry between Giles and Anya was awesome, I wish they had explored that a little more in the series. Up until The Body, I had always wished they would pair Joyce with Giles, but I think Anya would have been good for Giles, he would have treated her better than Xander did, that's for sure.
I have also noted that a lot of fics pair Dawn and Conner together, when these two characters never even met.
I don't much care for Spanya. but in Tabula Rasa, the chemistry between Giles and Anya was awesome, I wish they had explored that a little more in the series. Up until The Body, I had always wished they would pair Joyce with Giles, but I think Anya would have been good for Giles, he would have treated her better than Xander did, that's for sure.
I have also noted that a lot of fics pair Dawn and Conner together, when these two characters never even met.
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
Oct 08 2009 08:05 am #16BandS
Guest
Disregard other message...Sorry for spamming lol! I cleaned it up!!!!
Spanya - they don't really work together for the same reason Buffy and Riley don't work together - they're too much alike. They have a certain amount of chemistry, but you don't get the constant battles that you do with Spuffy that are so much fun.
(I hope that sourcing worked lol! The above is quoted from spikez_tart!
Actually, you can't possibly place Spanya in the same category as Biley. Why? That was a relationship. Spanya was a one night stand. I really didn't like Riley at all. Cripes he reminded me of my mother - all stuck up the arse, and prim and proper, strict guidelines, and I could go on. My mother isn't military background, but she might as well have been, lol.
I also have a comment - no Joss doesn't get it. He won't ever get the amount of inner turmoil that comes with the power of leaving someone in such a cruel and manipulative way. (I say manipulative because though given a vision he decided therefore manipulating the day by walking away) He just left and no word at all. He comes back later and begs for forgiveness. No uh uh. He only understands one thing...Pain. Suffering. Control and yeah I am not a big fan of Whedon's...Sorry, I may have liked the show to a certain extent, but as far as his vision? No, I want a program to escape where - yes there is learning, pain, and struggles - but there is also hope, love, and all the things one wouldn't experience in RL. Geez, Law and Order: SVU - though heartbreaking at times seems to come out of that morbid and move to the progress and 'good' stages. Kind of why I don't praise the guy...Sorry if some are fans. I wasn't and this seemed to be such a joint effort anyway, but with his final say.
As far as Spanya goes? There isn't enough to say they're too much alike. On some levels yeah they are. If it had gone further - which, is what I'm talking about - would have been interesting to see, and quite possibly, changed my ship or been a ship of both. I don't think anyone could say that Anya and Spike could have had the constant battles that Spuffy have that are so much fun, as you put. It would have been different. They could have had their own type of angst, quipping, and fun. I don't like Spuffy because of that. I like the chemistry they had on screen. The quipping was funny, sure, but the chemistry was electrifying. Anya and Spike in that one moment had it, because they were both feeling a tremendous loss. It had potential to really shake up those Spuffy shippers that's for sure - had it gone further. But it didn't. I was merely pointing out - had it gone further? I would have been struggling with whom to ship for or quite possibly shipping both.
The same would be said if Tara and Spike were shipped. Although, with that one I lean more towards friendship, sisterly. I could never and totally can't stomach Spawn - like ever. I could if I have to stomach Dander (giggles). I read some sleazy threesome fic between Buffy, Dawn, and Spike - bee lined it to the bathroom. I was mortified. Written pretty well, (no I don't remember who), just wasn't my preference...cuz ewww?
Also I don't completely hate him I just dislike him. I know, huh, right? I don't hate any characters, just dislike some of them. I have Xander, Angel, Riley, some Buffy, and Willow issues. Not many Giles, Tara, Dawn, Andrew, Cordy, or Wes issues. Oh strike that I did loathe two characters like a plague - Warren and Kennedy. Warren was idk bad acting or something? Nope not a fan. Kennedy annoyed and gave me an immense headache.
Before I got completely tangent-y I get what your saying about Anya and Xander...I don't remember who (sort of going huh at the tv right now, lol), but someone mentioned that Xander and Dawn coming together after Xander loses Anya, and Dawn never really being with anyone - makes sense. However, I think she had that vibe of fitting more with Andrew for awhile there. They cracked me up whereas Xander and Dawn, made me yawn - canon wise.
Uh, crap, I didn't know the actress who played Harmony (drawing blank think its Mercedes or something lol) is on Hatchet? Yeah watching a gory movie and should be in bed...
Spanya - they don't really work together for the same reason Buffy and Riley don't work together - they're too much alike. They have a certain amount of chemistry, but you don't get the constant battles that you do with Spuffy that are so much fun.
(I hope that sourcing worked lol! The above is quoted from spikez_tart!
Actually, you can't possibly place Spanya in the same category as Biley. Why? That was a relationship. Spanya was a one night stand. I really didn't like Riley at all. Cripes he reminded me of my mother - all stuck up the arse, and prim and proper, strict guidelines, and I could go on. My mother isn't military background, but she might as well have been, lol.
I also have a comment - no Joss doesn't get it. He won't ever get the amount of inner turmoil that comes with the power of leaving someone in such a cruel and manipulative way. (I say manipulative because though given a vision he decided therefore manipulating the day by walking away) He just left and no word at all. He comes back later and begs for forgiveness. No uh uh. He only understands one thing...Pain. Suffering. Control and yeah I am not a big fan of Whedon's...Sorry, I may have liked the show to a certain extent, but as far as his vision? No, I want a program to escape where - yes there is learning, pain, and struggles - but there is also hope, love, and all the things one wouldn't experience in RL. Geez, Law and Order: SVU - though heartbreaking at times seems to come out of that morbid and move to the progress and 'good' stages. Kind of why I don't praise the guy...Sorry if some are fans. I wasn't and this seemed to be such a joint effort anyway, but with his final say.
As far as Spanya goes? There isn't enough to say they're too much alike. On some levels yeah they are. If it had gone further - which, is what I'm talking about - would have been interesting to see, and quite possibly, changed my ship or been a ship of both. I don't think anyone could say that Anya and Spike could have had the constant battles that Spuffy have that are so much fun, as you put. It would have been different. They could have had their own type of angst, quipping, and fun. I don't like Spuffy because of that. I like the chemistry they had on screen. The quipping was funny, sure, but the chemistry was electrifying. Anya and Spike in that one moment had it, because they were both feeling a tremendous loss. It had potential to really shake up those Spuffy shippers that's for sure - had it gone further. But it didn't. I was merely pointing out - had it gone further? I would have been struggling with whom to ship for or quite possibly shipping both.
The same would be said if Tara and Spike were shipped. Although, with that one I lean more towards friendship, sisterly. I could never and totally can't stomach Spawn - like ever. I could if I have to stomach Dander (giggles). I read some sleazy threesome fic between Buffy, Dawn, and Spike - bee lined it to the bathroom. I was mortified. Written pretty well, (no I don't remember who), just wasn't my preference...cuz ewww?
Also I don't completely hate him I just dislike him. I know, huh, right? I don't hate any characters, just dislike some of them. I have Xander, Angel, Riley, some Buffy, and Willow issues. Not many Giles, Tara, Dawn, Andrew, Cordy, or Wes issues. Oh strike that I did loathe two characters like a plague - Warren and Kennedy. Warren was idk bad acting or something? Nope not a fan. Kennedy annoyed and gave me an immense headache.
Before I got completely tangent-y I get what your saying about Anya and Xander...I don't remember who (sort of going huh at the tv right now, lol), but someone mentioned that Xander and Dawn coming together after Xander loses Anya, and Dawn never really being with anyone - makes sense. However, I think she had that vibe of fitting more with Andrew for awhile there. They cracked me up whereas Xander and Dawn, made me yawn - canon wise.
Uh, crap, I didn't know the actress who played Harmony (drawing blank think its Mercedes or something lol) is on Hatchet? Yeah watching a gory movie and should be in bed...
Oct 08 2009 08:22 am #17TammyDevil666
Mercedes McNab, but anyway, this is what I have a problem with. Besides leaving Anya at the altar, Xander didn't really treat her badly to me. Everyone has him treat her horribly in fictions, but I didn't see that on the show at all, maybe it's just me. And well, Anya was hardly perfect. I'm someone who can't get onboard with Giles/Anya, I just don't really see that. I'm glad it didn't go any further than Tabula Rasa. As for Dawn and Connor, the reason why so many people put them together is because they just work. Dawn would probably be able to relate to Connor more than anyone else, it doesn't matter if they've never actually met. I think they would have a lot in common.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Oct 08 2009 09:12 am #18BandS
Guest
I agree Tammy. Giles and Anya didn't float my boat, lol. Though it could have worked if say he wasn't Giles and maybe Ripper-like? He was in a movie called I'll Be There (really good movie too!) and though he was a prick - he eventually turned out to be a damn sexy guy later on. He has this crazy sexy appeal...Is it the British thing? Probably.
Connor and Dawn, I agree that it works for fan fiction, definitely. Though, I wonder about something? Does having things in common truly make for a better relationship, rather than having different things in common, but spicing up the relationship? Does anyone think that having too much or things in common leave you with a less than stellar relationship? Then again I believe in both. Having things in common works, but so does opposites attracting.
I think you're right though, Tammy. A lot of us may be seeing Xander in a harsher light because of fan fiction? Although, I think Xander does exhibit some behavior that raises flags for a lot of women. His looks having nothing to do with it, either. Nicholas does a great job at playing the 'jokester' of the group, but his relationship skills definitely needed improvement. We may have seen nothing wrong with his relationship with Anya on tv, but I think in an episode he clearly shows the potential of being 'that guy'. I forget which one. I know when planning the wedding he definitely gave off that typical maleness of not being interested at all. Did this make him a bad guy? No. However, the attempt rape by him with Buffy when he was possessed I think would be considered as part of his deep hidden dark desires...That would give anyone a run with their imagination when setting up a big bad in their story. I actually love these two stories - Because he needs me by DreamsofSpike and Stalk her by Lisa. Two incredible and well written stories. Though not for the fate of heart. Stalk her is a bit lighter. I know Lisa can be found on SA offline cd...Which I'm sure I have as I have been obsessively getting my computer back to where it was before it crashed from the two major virus's that found their way into my machine...Bad Bad virus's give me a vamp anyday...Preferably Eric, Spike, and Josef Kostas (Moonlight) - not necessarily in that order maybe all three lol.
Ok, stupid new dvr!!!! Did anyone know you can't record two and watch another? You can record one watch another. UGHHHH! Then the damn thing reboots and I miss the end of Hatchet...But Mercedes...(I won't spoil) and did I mention ditzy blonde! Is this her calling card when acting?
:)
Connor and Dawn, I agree that it works for fan fiction, definitely. Though, I wonder about something? Does having things in common truly make for a better relationship, rather than having different things in common, but spicing up the relationship? Does anyone think that having too much or things in common leave you with a less than stellar relationship? Then again I believe in both. Having things in common works, but so does opposites attracting.
I think you're right though, Tammy. A lot of us may be seeing Xander in a harsher light because of fan fiction? Although, I think Xander does exhibit some behavior that raises flags for a lot of women. His looks having nothing to do with it, either. Nicholas does a great job at playing the 'jokester' of the group, but his relationship skills definitely needed improvement. We may have seen nothing wrong with his relationship with Anya on tv, but I think in an episode he clearly shows the potential of being 'that guy'. I forget which one. I know when planning the wedding he definitely gave off that typical maleness of not being interested at all. Did this make him a bad guy? No. However, the attempt rape by him with Buffy when he was possessed I think would be considered as part of his deep hidden dark desires...That would give anyone a run with their imagination when setting up a big bad in their story. I actually love these two stories - Because he needs me by DreamsofSpike and Stalk her by Lisa. Two incredible and well written stories. Though not for the fate of heart. Stalk her is a bit lighter. I know Lisa can be found on SA offline cd...Which I'm sure I have as I have been obsessively getting my computer back to where it was before it crashed from the two major virus's that found their way into my machine...Bad Bad virus's give me a vamp anyday...Preferably Eric, Spike, and Josef Kostas (Moonlight) - not necessarily in that order maybe all three lol.
Ok, stupid new dvr!!!! Did anyone know you can't record two and watch another? You can record one watch another. UGHHHH! Then the damn thing reboots and I miss the end of Hatchet...But Mercedes...(I won't spoil) and did I mention ditzy blonde! Is this her calling card when acting?
:)
Oct 08 2009 01:00 pm #19Jane
Guest
Even putting all fan fiction aside, Xander did treat Anya poorly. Off the top of my head:
-trying to rape Buffy and then not even having the decency to apologize with his little "I can't remember" excuse. And then he becomes the loudest to repeatedly proclaim that "Spike's an evil monster rapist" when he has absolutely no room to talk. (Don't give me the "but Xander was possessed" spiel, hyenas have no mental or physical concept of rape. Look it up: it's physically impossible for the species. It's a completely alien concept to them.)
-at the end of S2 when he lied to Buffy and didn't warn her that Willow was trying to restore Angel's soul. If he hadn't all it would have taken was for Buffy to say "Hey Angelus, Willow's in the middle of restoring your soul. You open that portal and you have no hope in hell (pun intended) of ever breaking the curse again" Angelus would have stopped there and tried to get to Willow as fast as he could, and given the timeline, Buffy wouldn't have even had to fight him to delay him.
-in regards to Xander being a jokester, it got old and immature, and on several occassions, I didn't find Xander's joking "funny" at all.
-always telling her to be quiet and telling her was she should and should not say whenever Anya tried to be more than just "Xander's girlfriend/shopkeeper" Do I really need to point out the male chauvinism in that?
-proposing to Anya and then not letting her even tell anyone and making her wait *months* until he announced it on *his* terms? If nothing else, Anya should have dumped the @sshole then.
-the wedding way a HUGE thing against Xander. He didn't even have the balls to stay long enough to tell everyone the wedding was off. He ran off leaving Anya, utterly devestated, to face her friends and both their families ALONE.
-trying to rape Buffy and then not even having the decency to apologize with his little "I can't remember" excuse. And then he becomes the loudest to repeatedly proclaim that "Spike's an evil monster rapist" when he has absolutely no room to talk. (Don't give me the "but Xander was possessed" spiel, hyenas have no mental or physical concept of rape. Look it up: it's physically impossible for the species. It's a completely alien concept to them.)
-at the end of S2 when he lied to Buffy and didn't warn her that Willow was trying to restore Angel's soul. If he hadn't all it would have taken was for Buffy to say "Hey Angelus, Willow's in the middle of restoring your soul. You open that portal and you have no hope in hell (pun intended) of ever breaking the curse again" Angelus would have stopped there and tried to get to Willow as fast as he could, and given the timeline, Buffy wouldn't have even had to fight him to delay him.
-in regards to Xander being a jokester, it got old and immature, and on several occassions, I didn't find Xander's joking "funny" at all.
-always telling her to be quiet and telling her was she should and should not say whenever Anya tried to be more than just "Xander's girlfriend/shopkeeper" Do I really need to point out the male chauvinism in that?
-proposing to Anya and then not letting her even tell anyone and making her wait *months* until he announced it on *his* terms? If nothing else, Anya should have dumped the @sshole then.
-the wedding way a HUGE thing against Xander. He didn't even have the balls to stay long enough to tell everyone the wedding was off. He ran off leaving Anya, utterly devestated, to face her friends and both their families ALONE.
Oct 08 2009 05:48 pm #20Tammy
Guest
First of all, I get why he did all of that. He wasn't ready to marry Anya, and it probably would have been a big mistake if he did go through with it. I do think he should have had that revelation before the actual wedding, though. That doesn't mean he didn't want to be with her anymore, he just wasn't ready for marriage. Her deciding to be a vengeance demon again was a stupid choice, but even then, he didn't stop loving her. Also, Buffy would not have said that to Angelus, it just wouldn't have worked. Xander not telling Buffy the truth is probably what saved her. If she knew, she wouldn't have been fighting her hardest and probably would have gotten killed in the process. The near rape thing isn't even an issue to me because yes, he was possessed, and that tends to make you do things you would never normally do. And let's face it, Anya said a lot of really inappropriate things that were not necessary, I would wanna shut her up, too. I still don't think he did that as often as he does in fictions. Everyone keeps pointing out the bad things that Xander did, but never the good. Saving the world, his speech to Dawn, which always brings tears to my eyes, and so on. They've all done their share of badness, but Xander seems to get the most hatred, which I never understood. If you ask me, Willow is way worse. And what about Buffy? She's definitely no saint. There is one thing I didn't like with Xander, and that's the fact he was the one to summon Sweet, but never told anyone about it. Yes, people were killed and it just gets ignored, that always bothered me. You know if Spike was the one to summon the demon, they would have a field day with that, but still, I have to admit that Xander was always one of my favorite characters. I think I liked him the best in the 7th season, though, when he matured more.
Oct 08 2009 06:46 pm #21Scarf Pet
Guest
Oh boy....
We've done the whole Xander thing on some other thread I'm sure. I just don't have the time to look for it.
I won't go in depth into defending Xander, cause I've already done so here. But I will say, reiterating more or less what Tammy said, Willow and Buffy were pretty much worse than Xander. With relationships, with truth telling, with hypocrisy, and pretty much everything. That isn't to say that Xander's mistakes get canceled out by any means just because those two were a lot more horrible than he, but I just don't get why his faults are harped on so much, when in the grand scheme of things, he really wasn't that bad. At all. In sheer comparison.
proposing to Anya and then not letting her even tell anyone and making her wait *months* until he announced it on *his* terms?
Well, at least he didn't threaten to kill her if she told anyone or beat her up. At the very least, everyone at least knew they were together...Anything else I could possibly say would be nothing more than a repeat at this point.
We've done the whole Xander thing on some other thread I'm sure. I just don't have the time to look for it.
I won't go in depth into defending Xander, cause I've already done so here. But I will say, reiterating more or less what Tammy said, Willow and Buffy were pretty much worse than Xander. With relationships, with truth telling, with hypocrisy, and pretty much everything. That isn't to say that Xander's mistakes get canceled out by any means just because those two were a lot more horrible than he, but I just don't get why his faults are harped on so much, when in the grand scheme of things, he really wasn't that bad. At all. In sheer comparison.
proposing to Anya and then not letting her even tell anyone and making her wait *months* until he announced it on *his* terms?
Well, at least he didn't threaten to kill her if she told anyone or beat her up. At the very least, everyone at least knew they were together...Anything else I could possibly say would be nothing more than a repeat at this point.
Oct 08 2009 07:36 pm #22BandS
Guest
Jane - I totally get what you are saying, wasn't praising Xander in anyway. He was depicted as this throughout the show, and, yeah, it was getting old. Same old, same old.
This thread is actually in regards to Dawn/Xander and what's up with that. And, yes, Scarlet Xander will probably be disected many times to come. Put yourself in Anya's shoes. A Vengeance Demon for 1100 plus years and then human. Pretty big change. You have someone you love so much ask you to marry him, but then says don't tell anyone????? You're ok with that? Wow, I applaud you for letting a man take control of what you are clearly happy about. This is exactly what Xander did. She had to hide her excitement of being engaged and planning something that meant the world to her. Who cares if she said inappropriate things!!! I actually, found them funny and made her extremely quirky. She had this innocent sweetness about her. I found her comment in The Body about Joyce's death so emotional. She didn't get it - why everyone was so sad. Yet, she was upset. And how many times was she on with Joyce? Probably very few, if any at all. Yet she reacted in a way a ex demon should have. Mixed emotions. I cried during her scene. She was amazing. The only time I cried when Buffy found her mother - was during Dawn and Buffy on the ground crying at the end of the episode. Buffy's friends in the end gave a better emotional sadness than Buffy. I get it, she found her mother, shock all around, and incredibly hard to get a grip on what was real. Sarah did a great job with that. But, hardly no tears just a sad blank look? I would have been crying rivers of tears and going through the emotions of loss. Buffy hardly did that. It was like blank, this isn't real, then crying on the ground with sister. Ok next episode.
Anyway tangent again...There will be tons of threads disecting everyone of those characters to bits. Some are going to loathe Xander. I dislike him. He did not make for a good guy in a relationship, at all. The same could be said for Willow, and even Buffy. They all had issues the size of Mt. Everest? Some will be obsessive about their main character they love...Like heehee I love Spike to bits - and not cuz he is a hottie! I loved how his character evolved. He was the bad guy who turned good. That's right, though, if Spike did something horrible - it was never forgotten. Xander did, Buffy did, or Willow did, and oh lets include Angel in that too - it was merely brushed aside and forgotten.
Pretty hypocritical to me. Yeah, you don't dwell on it, but the characters had little to no growth - they were consistent. Which in tv time, I guess is good, but real life is rather dull and unrealistic. No matter how you slice it - we do change. Like example (I know corny one too) - I despised chocolate icecream and LOVED vanialla - now I love both. Actually loving chocolate milkshakes more. With chocolate I was picky and always would be - not a nut lover. Those kind of things will stay, but I'm talking about the changes that you evolve to with your surroundings. Buffy didn't. Willow wanted to change it to suit her. Xander was at times like what??? Why did you do that??? And what with the huh? I think I saw more growth in Spike, Faith, Dawn, Andrew, and geez Wood - than the core characters in the 7 years they were on the show. Oops forgot Vi - that girl was all sorts of suprises in the end!
No he didn't threaten her - he was manipulative and controlling to begin with. She was pretty much trained very well to keep her mouth shut and oh wait this was considered inappropriate for her to discuss with the others just because he said so. Sorry that's cruel. I would have thrown the ring at him and said go control someone else! I'm done!
:) back to work lol
This thread is actually in regards to Dawn/Xander and what's up with that. And, yes, Scarlet Xander will probably be disected many times to come. Put yourself in Anya's shoes. A Vengeance Demon for 1100 plus years and then human. Pretty big change. You have someone you love so much ask you to marry him, but then says don't tell anyone????? You're ok with that? Wow, I applaud you for letting a man take control of what you are clearly happy about. This is exactly what Xander did. She had to hide her excitement of being engaged and planning something that meant the world to her. Who cares if she said inappropriate things!!! I actually, found them funny and made her extremely quirky. She had this innocent sweetness about her. I found her comment in The Body about Joyce's death so emotional. She didn't get it - why everyone was so sad. Yet, she was upset. And how many times was she on with Joyce? Probably very few, if any at all. Yet she reacted in a way a ex demon should have. Mixed emotions. I cried during her scene. She was amazing. The only time I cried when Buffy found her mother - was during Dawn and Buffy on the ground crying at the end of the episode. Buffy's friends in the end gave a better emotional sadness than Buffy. I get it, she found her mother, shock all around, and incredibly hard to get a grip on what was real. Sarah did a great job with that. But, hardly no tears just a sad blank look? I would have been crying rivers of tears and going through the emotions of loss. Buffy hardly did that. It was like blank, this isn't real, then crying on the ground with sister. Ok next episode.
Anyway tangent again...There will be tons of threads disecting everyone of those characters to bits. Some are going to loathe Xander. I dislike him. He did not make for a good guy in a relationship, at all. The same could be said for Willow, and even Buffy. They all had issues the size of Mt. Everest? Some will be obsessive about their main character they love...Like heehee I love Spike to bits - and not cuz he is a hottie! I loved how his character evolved. He was the bad guy who turned good. That's right, though, if Spike did something horrible - it was never forgotten. Xander did, Buffy did, or Willow did, and oh lets include Angel in that too - it was merely brushed aside and forgotten.
Pretty hypocritical to me. Yeah, you don't dwell on it, but the characters had little to no growth - they were consistent. Which in tv time, I guess is good, but real life is rather dull and unrealistic. No matter how you slice it - we do change. Like example (I know corny one too) - I despised chocolate icecream and LOVED vanialla - now I love both. Actually loving chocolate milkshakes more. With chocolate I was picky and always would be - not a nut lover. Those kind of things will stay, but I'm talking about the changes that you evolve to with your surroundings. Buffy didn't. Willow wanted to change it to suit her. Xander was at times like what??? Why did you do that??? And what with the huh? I think I saw more growth in Spike, Faith, Dawn, Andrew, and geez Wood - than the core characters in the 7 years they were on the show. Oops forgot Vi - that girl was all sorts of suprises in the end!
No he didn't threaten her - he was manipulative and controlling to begin with. She was pretty much trained very well to keep her mouth shut and oh wait this was considered inappropriate for her to discuss with the others just because he said so. Sorry that's cruel. I would have thrown the ring at him and said go control someone else! I'm done!
:) back to work lol
Dawn's seen his actions over the years. She probably wouldn't let him get away with his crap.
Oct 09 2009 02:21 am #24Immortal Beloved
Guest
The near rape thing isn't even an issue to me because yes, he was possessed, and that tends to make you do things you would never normally do.
For me, Xander's attempted rape isn't what bothers me most about that incident. It's the lying about it afterward. I happen to value honesty above almost everything; therefore, liars are not really on my list of favorite people.
A lot of us may be seeing Xander in a harsher light because of fan fiction
Nope. Started out liking the guy and started disliking him as I watched the series (I didn't watch it first run). That was before I ever even knew fanfic existed. I will say that sometimes fic writers do exaggerate a character's bad traits. For instance, I'm not that fond of Riley, but sometimes he's protrayed as more of a controlling asshole than he ever was on the show. However, if a writer carefully explores a character's darkside (e.g., Xander in Because He Needs Me by DoS) with something happening in the fic to cause the character to behave a certain way, then I don't have a problem believing it for that particular story.
They've all done their share of badness, but Xander seems to get the most hatred, which I never understood.
I will have to respectly disagree with that. I do only run in Spuffy circles, so perhaps that is why, but I've seen much more bashing of Buffy than of Xander.
And while I'm mentioning Buffy, I'll comment on the other characters' flaws and why they irk me less than Xander's. Willow was controlling beyond all belief. Spike was a masochistic fool. Anya seriously lacked a sense of self and self-esteem. Giles betrayed. Tara...Crap. :crap: Can't say one bad thing about Tara, except maybe she should have left Willow earlier. But she did leave, so I don't know if that one counts. :-P Anyway, you get the idea.
So why do those characters bother me less than Xander? It all boils down to what I can and cannot tollerate in a person. Levels of tollerance are specific to each individual. What bugs me may not bug the next person; and what bothers the next person may bother me, but not to the same degree. So, for me, it's a matter of does the good outweigh the bad, and how much does the bad bother me. I have much less tollerance for Xander's flaws than I do for other characters' flaws, his good traits don't overshadow his bad traits, and his bad traits go against what I value most.
Was that too confusing? :-P I guess I'm just trying to say that I find it less easy to like Xander than I find it to like some of the other characters.
For me, Xander's attempted rape isn't what bothers me most about that incident. It's the lying about it afterward. I happen to value honesty above almost everything; therefore, liars are not really on my list of favorite people.
A lot of us may be seeing Xander in a harsher light because of fan fiction
Nope. Started out liking the guy and started disliking him as I watched the series (I didn't watch it first run). That was before I ever even knew fanfic existed. I will say that sometimes fic writers do exaggerate a character's bad traits. For instance, I'm not that fond of Riley, but sometimes he's protrayed as more of a controlling asshole than he ever was on the show. However, if a writer carefully explores a character's darkside (e.g., Xander in Because He Needs Me by DoS) with something happening in the fic to cause the character to behave a certain way, then I don't have a problem believing it for that particular story.
They've all done their share of badness, but Xander seems to get the most hatred, which I never understood.
I will have to respectly disagree with that. I do only run in Spuffy circles, so perhaps that is why, but I've seen much more bashing of Buffy than of Xander.
And while I'm mentioning Buffy, I'll comment on the other characters' flaws and why they irk me less than Xander's. Willow was controlling beyond all belief. Spike was a masochistic fool. Anya seriously lacked a sense of self and self-esteem. Giles betrayed. Tara...Crap. :crap: Can't say one bad thing about Tara, except maybe she should have left Willow earlier. But she did leave, so I don't know if that one counts. :-P Anyway, you get the idea.
So why do those characters bother me less than Xander? It all boils down to what I can and cannot tollerate in a person. Levels of tollerance are specific to each individual. What bugs me may not bug the next person; and what bothers the next person may bother me, but not to the same degree. So, for me, it's a matter of does the good outweigh the bad, and how much does the bad bother me. I have much less tollerance for Xander's flaws than I do for other characters' flaws, his good traits don't overshadow his bad traits, and his bad traits go against what I value most.
Was that too confusing? :-P I guess I'm just trying to say that I find it less easy to like Xander than I find it to like some of the other characters.
The near rape thing isn't even an issue to me because yes, he was possessed, and that tends to make you do things you would never normally do.
The thing that bothers me about that is Xander calling Spike a rapist after Seeing Red, it seemed a bit hypocritical to me. Sure Xander was possesed, but he remembered what happened and pretended amnesia. Even after Spike got his soul, he was still labled as a rapist (even though he didn't go through with it) When Angel got his soul back, he was forgiven all, why wasn't Spike?
The thing that bothers me about that is Xander calling Spike a rapist after Seeing Red, it seemed a bit hypocritical to me. Sure Xander was possesed, but he remembered what happened and pretended amnesia. Even after Spike got his soul, he was still labled as a rapist (even though he didn't go through with it) When Angel got his soul back, he was forgiven all, why wasn't Spike?
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter.--- e e cummings
Come to challengespuffy post Spuffy fic challenges or find something to write about
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Oct 09 2009 02:56 am #26Jane
Guest
One thing that really bugged me was in "once more with feeling" when Xander was so cavalier about summoning sweet.
One, Xander knew better than to summon any demon for any reason whatsoever. Heck, he's the one always spouting off how all demons are evil monsters (making him all the more hypocritical for ignoring the fact that Anya chose to become a demon and did more evil than both Angelus and Spike combined).
But the big thing was that Xander knew he was responsible for the deaths of innocent people, he even had just nearly watched Buffy burn to death!!!
... and yet when faced with the fact that he was responsible Xander just flipped it off "Oops"
The same thing holds true when Xander tried to rape Buffy and when Xander jilted Anya at the altar. Sure, he was willing to say that he was wrong but that was it. Even after what he did to her, Xander actually expected her to just forgive and forget and immediately take him back.
Xander was all about condeming others and yet whenever it came down to actually assuming responsibility of his own actions, he never did.
One, Xander knew better than to summon any demon for any reason whatsoever. Heck, he's the one always spouting off how all demons are evil monsters (making him all the more hypocritical for ignoring the fact that Anya chose to become a demon and did more evil than both Angelus and Spike combined).
But the big thing was that Xander knew he was responsible for the deaths of innocent people, he even had just nearly watched Buffy burn to death!!!
... and yet when faced with the fact that he was responsible Xander just flipped it off "Oops"
The same thing holds true when Xander tried to rape Buffy and when Xander jilted Anya at the altar. Sure, he was willing to say that he was wrong but that was it. Even after what he did to her, Xander actually expected her to just forgive and forget and immediately take him back.
Xander was all about condeming others and yet whenever it came down to actually assuming responsibility of his own actions, he never did.
Oct 09 2009 03:04 am #27Scarlet Ibis
Tara...Crap. :crap: Can't say one bad thing about Tara
She was a doormat. If Buffy hadn't decided to stick up for her in the Magic Box on her birthday, and the rest following her lead, she wouldn't have even been in Sunnydale. But that's a small pet peeve of mine. Tara's pretty much good. Tara and Oz--they stood alone :p
I do only run in Spuffy circles, so perhaps that is why, but I've seen much more bashing of Buffy than of Xander.
I suppose it's only really considered bashing depending upon one's view of the events that occurred in canon. On that same token, the same can be said about Xander and how he is viewed.
I do believe, however,even if this doesn't apply to you IB, that how Xander is viewed has been skewed heavily by the way he is portrayed in the majority of fan fics (which is, as a total and utter racist, well specist dick). Oh, the reviews I've gotten that were along the lines of, "Wow--Xander's not a bastard in this fic! It's blowing my mind!"... Very telling, that.
Even after Spike got his soul, he was still labled as a rapist
Xander said that once or twice in the beginning of season seven, but soon after, he let Spike live in his house--again--and didn't jump on the "let's stake Spike!" bandwagon that Anya and Dawn were on. He didn't make jokes...he just ignored the comments, and continued to fix the house.
When Angel got his soul back, he was forgiven all, why wasn't Spike?
Well, he wasn't at first either :P Giles didn't trust him. Xander didn't trust him, and they weren't all goody goody, inviting him over and stuff or nothing. That, and, how they reacted to Angel having his soul, verses Spike having his soul, was dependent upon how Buffy reacted to them having their souls. If she had immediately given the A okay like she had with Angel, they would have accepted Spike and his soul status a lot sooner. But yes, Angel overall did get treated better upon his return to Sunnydale, but that was again, Buffy's call. Also, Buffy helped Angel get better. Spike was in the basement crazy for how long?
(Note: I do not care if Spike has or hasn't a soul, and I do not think there is a schism between Spike with a soul and Spike without one.)
ETA: Xander was all about condeming others and yet whenever it came down to actually assuming responsibility of his own actions, he never did.
Yeah, he wasn't the only main character who was guilty of that....
She was a doormat. If Buffy hadn't decided to stick up for her in the Magic Box on her birthday, and the rest following her lead, she wouldn't have even been in Sunnydale. But that's a small pet peeve of mine. Tara's pretty much good. Tara and Oz--they stood alone :p
I do only run in Spuffy circles, so perhaps that is why, but I've seen much more bashing of Buffy than of Xander.
I suppose it's only really considered bashing depending upon one's view of the events that occurred in canon. On that same token, the same can be said about Xander and how he is viewed.
I do believe, however,even if this doesn't apply to you IB, that how Xander is viewed has been skewed heavily by the way he is portrayed in the majority of fan fics (which is, as a total and utter racist, well specist dick). Oh, the reviews I've gotten that were along the lines of, "Wow--Xander's not a bastard in this fic! It's blowing my mind!"... Very telling, that.
Even after Spike got his soul, he was still labled as a rapist
Xander said that once or twice in the beginning of season seven, but soon after, he let Spike live in his house--again--and didn't jump on the "let's stake Spike!" bandwagon that Anya and Dawn were on. He didn't make jokes...he just ignored the comments, and continued to fix the house.
When Angel got his soul back, he was forgiven all, why wasn't Spike?
Well, he wasn't at first either :P Giles didn't trust him. Xander didn't trust him, and they weren't all goody goody, inviting him over and stuff or nothing. That, and, how they reacted to Angel having his soul, verses Spike having his soul, was dependent upon how Buffy reacted to them having their souls. If she had immediately given the A okay like she had with Angel, they would have accepted Spike and his soul status a lot sooner. But yes, Angel overall did get treated better upon his return to Sunnydale, but that was again, Buffy's call. Also, Buffy helped Angel get better. Spike was in the basement crazy for how long?
(Note: I do not care if Spike has or hasn't a soul, and I do not think there is a schism between Spike with a soul and Spike without one.)
ETA: Xander was all about condeming others and yet whenever it came down to actually assuming responsibility of his own actions, he never did.
Yeah, he wasn't the only main character who was guilty of that....
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Oct 09 2009 04:47 am #28Immortal Beloved
Guest
Who cares if she said inappropriate things!
Crap. :crap: I forgot to mention this in my previous post. Anya did something most people are afraid of: she told the truth. She was honest and forthright, and she didn't skirt around pink elephants in the room or put on airs or bother with social niceties in touchy situations. She said what she meant, and she meant what she said. Yes, she was blunt, but she didn't say anything that other people wouldn't have been wise to listen to. :-P
Crap. :crap: I forgot to mention this in my previous post. Anya did something most people are afraid of: she told the truth. She was honest and forthright, and she didn't skirt around pink elephants in the room or put on airs or bother with social niceties in touchy situations. She said what she meant, and she meant what she said. Yes, she was blunt, but she didn't say anything that other people wouldn't have been wise to listen to. :-P
:(
This thread makes me feel sad. Anyway, here's what I think:
I think Xander is an amazing character that represented us, the normal people, surrounded by supernatural happenings. He's a hero because he's not traditionally smart or strong or has a natural talent in magic yet he never quits, never fled, always there to fight. He sees things a little black and white, but not entirely, or else he'd have not accepted Oz and Anya in the group. His white and black view has more to do with him being normal while the people around him understand what it feels like to be supernatural, that's also why Buffy can't understand what it feels like when she tells Xander that he can't join her to fight. He's prejudiced towards vampires because of many conflicts presented in the show. Despite his realistic flaws, he's loyal, caring, sweet, brave and protective towards the people he considers family.
I think the idea of him being abusive, or verbally abusive, towards Anya is utterly ridiculous. The only time I thought he was verbally abusive towards her was Entropy, other than that, no evidence of verbal abuse at all. I've always saw his quarrels with Anya as couply quarrels. I noticed he's rude to her sometimes, but so was she to him at times. I agree that Xander has double standards and is a hypocrite when it comes to his relationships and Buffy's, also when it comes to forgiving the people he loves and punishing the ones he doesn't. I noticed that he was rude to Buffy and Willow in some occasions, but that doesn't mean he's a woman hater or a bad friend. Friends fight. A lot. Hell my friends did more to me than whatever Xander did to Buffy and Willow, and I still forgive them because they deserve it. And I believe Xander deserves to be forgiven because his good qualities triumph over his bad ones in my opinion.
(This speech is taken from a play I wrote about a Xander-fan and a Xander-hater debating, I just didn't feel like re-writing how I feel about Xander)
As for Xander/Dawn. Why wouldn't Dawn want to be with Xander? Other than the age issue and the brother/sister issue, Xander has always been seen by Dawn as a great guy. I don't think the leaving-Anya-at-the-altar is gonna haunt Xander forever, it's a mistake he made, and he deserves a second chance, 'cause regardless of what many think, he's obviously a good guy, and he's been very good to Dawn. S7 shows them being close and understanding each other, S8 developed that more.
As a S8 reader, Xander was starting a relationship with a woman named Renee before he considered dating Dawn -who also had dated a guy named Kenny in college. They found each other after Xander lost his new girlfriend and Dawn cheated on hers.
This thread makes me feel sad. Anyway, here's what I think:
I think Xander is an amazing character that represented us, the normal people, surrounded by supernatural happenings. He's a hero because he's not traditionally smart or strong or has a natural talent in magic yet he never quits, never fled, always there to fight. He sees things a little black and white, but not entirely, or else he'd have not accepted Oz and Anya in the group. His white and black view has more to do with him being normal while the people around him understand what it feels like to be supernatural, that's also why Buffy can't understand what it feels like when she tells Xander that he can't join her to fight. He's prejudiced towards vampires because of many conflicts presented in the show. Despite his realistic flaws, he's loyal, caring, sweet, brave and protective towards the people he considers family.
I think the idea of him being abusive, or verbally abusive, towards Anya is utterly ridiculous. The only time I thought he was verbally abusive towards her was Entropy, other than that, no evidence of verbal abuse at all. I've always saw his quarrels with Anya as couply quarrels. I noticed he's rude to her sometimes, but so was she to him at times. I agree that Xander has double standards and is a hypocrite when it comes to his relationships and Buffy's, also when it comes to forgiving the people he loves and punishing the ones he doesn't. I noticed that he was rude to Buffy and Willow in some occasions, but that doesn't mean he's a woman hater or a bad friend. Friends fight. A lot. Hell my friends did more to me than whatever Xander did to Buffy and Willow, and I still forgive them because they deserve it. And I believe Xander deserves to be forgiven because his good qualities triumph over his bad ones in my opinion.
(This speech is taken from a play I wrote about a Xander-fan and a Xander-hater debating, I just didn't feel like re-writing how I feel about Xander)
As for Xander/Dawn. Why wouldn't Dawn want to be with Xander? Other than the age issue and the brother/sister issue, Xander has always been seen by Dawn as a great guy. I don't think the leaving-Anya-at-the-altar is gonna haunt Xander forever, it's a mistake he made, and he deserves a second chance, 'cause regardless of what many think, he's obviously a good guy, and he's been very good to Dawn. S7 shows them being close and understanding each other, S8 developed that more.
As a S8 reader, Xander was starting a relationship with a woman named Renee before he considered dating Dawn -who also had dated a guy named Kenny in college. They found each other after Xander lost his new girlfriend and Dawn cheated on hers.
Anya did something most people are afraid of: she told the truth.
I don't think talking about your sex life with your partner to his friends after he told you he's not comfortable with it is a good thing. She should have respected his feelings on this. I'd be upset if my husband started babbling about our kinks to my friends, it's private.
I don't mind people telling the truth, but Anya usually comes off as rude. Telling the truth in good manner is okay, but doing it in a tactless, ill-usage-of words kinda way is not. At least in my book. Anya can say the truth all she wanted but she shouldn't be insulting Xander's friends while doing it.
So, this is me saying that Anya isn't better than Xander in that relationship. Both of them had their ups and downs. Anya isn't a saint in that ship and Xander isn't the evil guy there as well.
I don't think talking about your sex life with your partner to his friends after he told you he's not comfortable with it is a good thing. She should have respected his feelings on this. I'd be upset if my husband started babbling about our kinks to my friends, it's private.
I don't mind people telling the truth, but Anya usually comes off as rude. Telling the truth in good manner is okay, but doing it in a tactless, ill-usage-of words kinda way is not. At least in my book. Anya can say the truth all she wanted but she shouldn't be insulting Xander's friends while doing it.
So, this is me saying that Anya isn't better than Xander in that relationship. Both of them had their ups and downs. Anya isn't a saint in that ship and Xander isn't the evil guy there as well.
Oct 09 2009 05:30 am #31Scarlet Ibis
and Dawn cheated on hers.
Well hell, then shouldn't the question be if Dawn deserves him? Xander may be a lot of things, but cheater...
Yeah okay, the Willow kissage that one time. But that doesn't really count. He didn't have sex with her or nothing, like Dawn did with her ex-bf.
And tangent, what I've heard about that incident in s8 about Dawn and Kenny and the being giant thing...the most utterly ridiculous thing ever. Mostly the part where Dawn doesn't see her fault in the matter. Yeah, she really isn't too reliable in a relationship--less so than Xander...Just saying.
Well hell, then shouldn't the question be if Dawn deserves him? Xander may be a lot of things, but cheater...
Yeah okay, the Willow kissage that one time. But that doesn't really count. He didn't have sex with her or nothing, like Dawn did with her ex-bf.
And tangent, what I've heard about that incident in s8 about Dawn and Kenny and the being giant thing...the most utterly ridiculous thing ever. Mostly the part where Dawn doesn't see her fault in the matter. Yeah, she really isn't too reliable in a relationship--less so than Xander...Just saying.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Oct 09 2009 08:31 am #32BandS
Guest
Yeah, she really isn't too reliable in a relationship--less so than Xander...Just saying.
Pretty much why I question - why Dawn and Xander? Both clearly have issues when it comes to relationships. Hell they all did! Should Buffy the Vampire Slayer have been called The Land of Denial? Hmmmm. LOL.
Pretty much why I question - why Dawn and Xander? Both clearly have issues when it comes to relationships. Hell they all did! Should Buffy the Vampire Slayer have been called The Land of Denial? Hmmmm. LOL.
I have to disagree, Scarlet. Dawn obviously knew she was in wrong. She even seems to believe she deserves Kenny's punishment, and she doesn't blame him for doing this to her. I think Kenny went too far with punishing Dawn, and Dawn was accepting, even using her situation to help saving the day. She really matured a lot since the show.
Kenny reminds me of Anya, punishing unfaithful partners. Dawn, unlike Anya's victims, didn't use her freak-of-nature situation to cause harm and do evil or even get back at Kenny. She was way better than all the men Anya cursed.
Kenny reminds me of Anya, punishing unfaithful partners. Dawn, unlike Anya's victims, didn't use her freak-of-nature situation to cause harm and do evil or even get back at Kenny. She was way better than all the men Anya cursed.
Oct 09 2009 02:51 pm #34ladycat713
Guest
I think that Kenny's curse on Dawn was broken by her admitting her wrongdoing to him and apoligizing. He probably thought she'd fess up long before she did but he underestimated the Scooby habit of not admitting wrong doing or apoligizing. He probably thought it wouldn't get that far.Any non Scooby probably would've confessed thier betrayal and that it was a vengeance spell just in order to help it be removed.
And one thing I don't think anyone's brought up is Xander's obsessing over Buffy's relationships. It seems like he spent more time on who she was involved with then who he was involved with. Him going from that to Dawn (the sister made from Buffy ) is kinda creepy.
And if Xander didn't like the blunt way Anya spoke, he should've broken up with her instead of shushing her especially considering all the shushing people could've done to him.
I thought the whole Dawn is a cheat plot line was completely unecessary as the Buffy uses another slayer who loves her for sex was. If they wanted to have Dawn shape shift it could have been done by the blood loss of losing her virginity connected to her keyness. If they wanted to have Buffy be bisexual , they could have had her have an equal relationship with someone not one where she had all the power.
On a side note , I don't believe in all that bi curious experimentation deal. If you're "curious" enough to have even a one night stand with a same sex partner then you're bisexual. You may have a major preference in the opposite sex but if you had sex with the same sex and enjoyed it you're bisexual.Look at the definition of straight , gay and bisexual. It's pretty clear. There's nothing wrong with bisexuality yet it seems like the Jossverse is afraid to label someone bisexual. Look at the example of Willow going Gay now. There was no switch flipped . If there was she wouldn't have been torn between Oz and Tara when Oz came back.
And why don't those of us who love the look of men get to see men making out with each other? Ther's no equal time given to us (gay men and straight women because the bi men and women also have the women to look at) .
One thing I would've like to see is for Dawn to go back to school and have her reputation in shreds. After all it's easy to gain a reputation and hard to lose it. Maybe have her try to date and no guy who interested in more than sex will go out with her because they fear she'll cheat on them.
And one thing I don't think anyone's brought up is Xander's obsessing over Buffy's relationships. It seems like he spent more time on who she was involved with then who he was involved with. Him going from that to Dawn (the sister made from Buffy ) is kinda creepy.
And if Xander didn't like the blunt way Anya spoke, he should've broken up with her instead of shushing her especially considering all the shushing people could've done to him.
I thought the whole Dawn is a cheat plot line was completely unecessary as the Buffy uses another slayer who loves her for sex was. If they wanted to have Dawn shape shift it could have been done by the blood loss of losing her virginity connected to her keyness. If they wanted to have Buffy be bisexual , they could have had her have an equal relationship with someone not one where she had all the power.
On a side note , I don't believe in all that bi curious experimentation deal. If you're "curious" enough to have even a one night stand with a same sex partner then you're bisexual. You may have a major preference in the opposite sex but if you had sex with the same sex and enjoyed it you're bisexual.Look at the definition of straight , gay and bisexual. It's pretty clear. There's nothing wrong with bisexuality yet it seems like the Jossverse is afraid to label someone bisexual. Look at the example of Willow going Gay now. There was no switch flipped . If there was she wouldn't have been torn between Oz and Tara when Oz came back.
And why don't those of us who love the look of men get to see men making out with each other? Ther's no equal time given to us (gay men and straight women because the bi men and women also have the women to look at) .
One thing I would've like to see is for Dawn to go back to school and have her reputation in shreds. After all it's easy to gain a reputation and hard to lose it. Maybe have her try to date and no guy who interested in more than sex will go out with her because they fear she'll cheat on them.
Oct 09 2009 03:11 pm #35Scarlet Ibis
I hadn't read that part of the comics--only heard of it. And what I've heard is pretty much the way ladycat just explained it, so I'm just going to add a "ditto" to her post. Yep.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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I think that Kenny's curse on Dawn was broken by her admitting her wrongdoing to him and apoligizing.
It was. But I'm not sure if Dawn knew that's the key to get her back to being normal. It also doesn't change the fact that Kenny was a bastard, letting her suffer like that for months. I can understand him being pissed and cursing her when he discovered she cheated on him, but letting it go on and on for months? That's just him being a jackass.
And if Xander didn't like the blunt way Anya spoke, he should've broken up with her instead of shushing her especially considering all the shushing people could've done to him.
"Anya, we've talked about this." Xander told her it bothered him, she just didn't listen.
It was. But I'm not sure if Dawn knew that's the key to get her back to being normal. It also doesn't change the fact that Kenny was a bastard, letting her suffer like that for months. I can understand him being pissed and cursing her when he discovered she cheated on him, but letting it go on and on for months? That's just him being a jackass.
And if Xander didn't like the blunt way Anya spoke, he should've broken up with her instead of shushing her especially considering all the shushing people could've done to him.
"Anya, we've talked about this." Xander told her it bothered him, she just didn't listen.
Oct 09 2009 09:23 pm #37:/
Guest
But I'm not sure if Dawn knew that's the key to get her back to being normal.
That shouldn't be the point, though. She should have done it anyway cause you know--it's the right thing to do.
Xander told her it bothered him, she just didn't listen.
I think the point that was initially being made is that, if he couldn't accept her for who she was--a blunt, tell it like it is person--then he should have just broken up with her instead of harping on it.
That shouldn't be the point, though. She should have done it anyway cause you know--it's the right thing to do.
Xander told her it bothered him, she just didn't listen.
I think the point that was initially being made is that, if he couldn't accept her for who she was--a blunt, tell it like it is person--then he should have just broken up with her instead of harping on it.
Oct 10 2009 01:39 am #38Immortal Beloved
Guest
I think the point that was initially being made is that, if he couldn't accept her for who she was--a blunt, tell it like it is person--then he should have just broken up with her instead of harping on it.
Word and a bag of chips. Some people just aren't suited to each other. Some things are changeable. Others are not. If you can't accept a fundamental part of someone, then you shouldn't be with that person. You cannot help whom you love, but when you love someone, you try to accept them as they are. If not, move on.
Word and a bag of chips. Some people just aren't suited to each other. Some things are changeable. Others are not. If you can't accept a fundamental part of someone, then you shouldn't be with that person. You cannot help whom you love, but when you love someone, you try to accept them as they are. If not, move on.
Oct 10 2009 05:11 pm #39ladycat713
Guest
Dawn shouldn't have had to known that apoligizing to Kenny was the key to breaking the curse.
And if we've learned anything from Angel's cursed soul , it's that in the Buffyverse curses come with a specific out clause (unless they're caused by a vengeance demon) .
So it could be that once Kenny made the curse , he couldn't break it only Dawn could. Telling her she had to apoligize probably wouldn't have done any good either, it could be the apology had to be sincere and therefore done without prompting. She had to show true remorse. An apology doesn't really mean anything if you're forced to say it and you don't really get the harm you've caused.
Dawn referred to herself as a giant whore but that could have been more because she slept with a guy she wasn't dating not because she truly got the pain and lasting damage she did. Dawn's actions may very well overshadow Kenny's relationships with women for the rest of his life. Even if another woman he's in love with gives him no reason to doubt her he could still have that doubt at the back of his mind that she may betray him.
Plus anyone who Dawn gets involved with who finds out she cheated (or who already knows) will always have that niggling at the back of thier mind that she may betray them as well. This could be easily triggered for Xander given how he reacted when he found Anya with Spike (like a cheated on husband) even though thier relationship was clearly severed since on your wedding day your fiance either becomes your bride or your ex unless you both agree to call off the wedding until a later time. By running out the door , Xander chose for her to be his ex.
The curse probably wasn't intent on placing Dawn in danger, after all she would be taken to her sister and surrounded by Slayers and a very powerful witch. Dawn was in no maore danger after her transformations than before them, Heck, she was in a lot less danger of being kidnapped as a giant than she was at regular size.
And one interesting point that whole curse makes is what incredible lengths one has to go to get a sincere apology from a Scooby. I mean, really, these are supposed to be the good guys, shouldn't they have some moral fiber and character.
I don't recall Willow ever apologizing for trying to end the world(correct me if I'm wrong) , in fact at the beginning of Season 7, she was still trying to blame the magic . I was glad when Giles pointed out to her that it wasn't the magic to blame because I thought it would open a look into Willow's control issues and making things right. Once all those potentials showed up there was no chance of the Scoobies working out thier issues and really growing as people.In STSP , we saw a completely unapologetic Willow ignoring the mess she'd made of the Magic Box even though Anya was trying to call her attention to it.
Without the curse , Dawn might never have apologized and would have continued to pretend she did nothing wrong.She might have even placed the blame on Kenny for thier breaking up.The curse forced her to think that thier might be consequences to her actions , even if the consequences were unusual.
And if we've learned anything from Angel's cursed soul , it's that in the Buffyverse curses come with a specific out clause (unless they're caused by a vengeance demon) .
So it could be that once Kenny made the curse , he couldn't break it only Dawn could. Telling her she had to apoligize probably wouldn't have done any good either, it could be the apology had to be sincere and therefore done without prompting. She had to show true remorse. An apology doesn't really mean anything if you're forced to say it and you don't really get the harm you've caused.
Dawn referred to herself as a giant whore but that could have been more because she slept with a guy she wasn't dating not because she truly got the pain and lasting damage she did. Dawn's actions may very well overshadow Kenny's relationships with women for the rest of his life. Even if another woman he's in love with gives him no reason to doubt her he could still have that doubt at the back of his mind that she may betray him.
Plus anyone who Dawn gets involved with who finds out she cheated (or who already knows) will always have that niggling at the back of thier mind that she may betray them as well. This could be easily triggered for Xander given how he reacted when he found Anya with Spike (like a cheated on husband) even though thier relationship was clearly severed since on your wedding day your fiance either becomes your bride or your ex unless you both agree to call off the wedding until a later time. By running out the door , Xander chose for her to be his ex.
The curse probably wasn't intent on placing Dawn in danger, after all she would be taken to her sister and surrounded by Slayers and a very powerful witch. Dawn was in no maore danger after her transformations than before them, Heck, she was in a lot less danger of being kidnapped as a giant than she was at regular size.
And one interesting point that whole curse makes is what incredible lengths one has to go to get a sincere apology from a Scooby. I mean, really, these are supposed to be the good guys, shouldn't they have some moral fiber and character.
I don't recall Willow ever apologizing for trying to end the world(correct me if I'm wrong) , in fact at the beginning of Season 7, she was still trying to blame the magic . I was glad when Giles pointed out to her that it wasn't the magic to blame because I thought it would open a look into Willow's control issues and making things right. Once all those potentials showed up there was no chance of the Scoobies working out thier issues and really growing as people.In STSP , we saw a completely unapologetic Willow ignoring the mess she'd made of the Magic Box even though Anya was trying to call her attention to it.
Without the curse , Dawn might never have apologized and would have continued to pretend she did nothing wrong.She might have even placed the blame on Kenny for thier breaking up.The curse forced her to think that thier might be consequences to her actions , even if the consequences were unusual.
Oct 10 2009 06:27 pm #40Tom
Guest
And one interesting point that whole curse makes is what incredible lengths one has to go to get a sincere apology from a Scooby. I mean, really, these are supposed to be the good guys, shouldn't they have some moral fiber and character.
I don't recall Willow ever apologizing for trying to end the world(correct me if I'm wrong) , in fact at the beginning of Season 7, she was still trying to blame the magic . I was glad when Giles pointed out to her that it wasn't the magic to blame because I thought it would open a look into Willow's control issues and making things right.
That right there was my biggest problem with the show: The Scoobies could, and did, get way with murder without any real consequences, or more often than not, without even assuming any responsibility for their actions.
I find it kinda ioronic that while everyone argues about the Spike and Xander being rapists nobody even seems to acknowledge the Willow unapologetically raped Tara. They were fighting, Willows screws withTara's mind, an act of mental rape against the glory who'd suffered from Glory's assault, and then, since Tara couldn't remember anything about why she was mad at Willow, they had sex.
It might not have been as violent as straight up rape, but date-rape doesn't have to be.
I don't recall Willow ever apologizing for trying to end the world(correct me if I'm wrong) , in fact at the beginning of Season 7, she was still trying to blame the magic . I was glad when Giles pointed out to her that it wasn't the magic to blame because I thought it would open a look into Willow's control issues and making things right.
That right there was my biggest problem with the show: The Scoobies could, and did, get way with murder without any real consequences, or more often than not, without even assuming any responsibility for their actions.
I find it kinda ioronic that while everyone argues about the Spike and Xander being rapists nobody even seems to acknowledge the Willow unapologetically raped Tara. They were fighting, Willows screws withTara's mind, an act of mental rape against the glory who'd suffered from Glory's assault, and then, since Tara couldn't remember anything about why she was mad at Willow, they had sex.
It might not have been as violent as straight up rape, but date-rape doesn't have to be.
That right there was my biggest problem with the show: The Scoobies could, and did, get way with murder without any real consequences, or more often than not, without even assuming any responsibility for their actions.
This is true, ALL of the core Scoobies killed humans, yet when Anya granted the vengence wish that killed the frat boys, Buffy was ready to kill her without blinking a lash.
This is true, ALL of the core Scoobies killed humans, yet when Anya granted the vengence wish that killed the frat boys, Buffy was ready to kill her without blinking a lash.
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Oct 10 2009 07:00 pm #42BandS
Guest
LisFayte - that's true. However, to Buffyverse it was seen this way: Anya granted vengeance wish then she killed frat boys. Buffy went to kill her because in Buffy's eyes the frat boys were innocent. She doesn't look at the whole picture. The very fact Anya is a vengeance demon to betrayed/hurt women never crosses Buffy's mind. That woman could have been raped and yet Buffy was ready to defend those killed frat boys by killing Anya. Makes no sense!!!! Hypocritical.
I thought Buffy was all about innocence? No actually it's about human race not innocence. She went there because Anya was a Vengeance Demon who needed to be killed. It was her job to slay demons and vampires. Forget anything about the fact that Anya was a friend. Nope to Buffy it's a mission. Do the job less the feelings. Did anyone get a sense of replay here that was when she had to take out Angelus? I did. They make the Slayer emotionless except Buffy wasn't. She was affected by killing Angel when she had to because of Angelus - which still was huh? Damn curse business.
Then there is Anya. Are we positive that the Soul goes when she turns Vengeancy? Was this ever explained in great detail? You would think so, so the Demon can do her job. My problem with this was when they receive their power center - the amulet they are all of a sudden Vengeance Demons and what? The soul goes poof? Then the power center is crushed the soul just magically appears and poof you have it?
Yeah, the morality of this show...was off. What was right to the Scoobies was never seen by them or was in fact denied by them to even themselves and others.
I thought Buffy was all about innocence? No actually it's about human race not innocence. She went there because Anya was a Vengeance Demon who needed to be killed. It was her job to slay demons and vampires. Forget anything about the fact that Anya was a friend. Nope to Buffy it's a mission. Do the job less the feelings. Did anyone get a sense of replay here that was when she had to take out Angelus? I did. They make the Slayer emotionless except Buffy wasn't. She was affected by killing Angel when she had to because of Angelus - which still was huh? Damn curse business.
Then there is Anya. Are we positive that the Soul goes when she turns Vengeancy? Was this ever explained in great detail? You would think so, so the Demon can do her job. My problem with this was when they receive their power center - the amulet they are all of a sudden Vengeance Demons and what? The soul goes poof? Then the power center is crushed the soul just magically appears and poof you have it?
Yeah, the morality of this show...was off. What was right to the Scoobies was never seen by them or was in fact denied by them to even themselves and others.
Oct 10 2009 07:13 pm #43BandS
Guest
I'm huh with my last sentence lol. Brain is mush, I think.
The Scoobies - No kill human good. Kill human bad. Demon, Vampire kill unless it has soul or curse.
They don't understand that humans are not all good. They need to stand by the code of killing demons, good, and killing humans, bad. Otherwise they will question everything.
But, then, you would think they would know this after each of them had done their fair share of 'evilness.'
Not so. Thus the denial starts so they don't change. I find it funny how they accept Clem and Spike - yet not once do they even think to ponder - what are we actually really doing? Maybe we should change the way things are done? Nope they go as they always have excepting only a few demons with hesitance but slaying how many that were not evil...Makes you wonder if that is straddling the side of racism. Or does racism only represent humans. Hmmm I wonder what the world would think if suddenly 'aliens' gathered on Earth. Would we automatically assume hostile and kill then dissect them? Or would we be intrigued and find means to co-inhabit?
This constantly ran through my mind when watching this show.
The Scoobies - No kill human good. Kill human bad. Demon, Vampire kill unless it has soul or curse.
They don't understand that humans are not all good. They need to stand by the code of killing demons, good, and killing humans, bad. Otherwise they will question everything.
But, then, you would think they would know this after each of them had done their fair share of 'evilness.'
Not so. Thus the denial starts so they don't change. I find it funny how they accept Clem and Spike - yet not once do they even think to ponder - what are we actually really doing? Maybe we should change the way things are done? Nope they go as they always have excepting only a few demons with hesitance but slaying how many that were not evil...Makes you wonder if that is straddling the side of racism. Or does racism only represent humans. Hmmm I wonder what the world would think if suddenly 'aliens' gathered on Earth. Would we automatically assume hostile and kill then dissect them? Or would we be intrigued and find means to co-inhabit?
This constantly ran through my mind when watching this show.
Oct 10 2009 07:16 pm #44ladycat713
Guest
It's definitely been brought up before about Willow's rape of Tara's mind and body . That's why I hated that Tara went back to Willow at the end of season 6 but I think they had that happen so that Tara would be there to be killed by a stray bullet and set Willow off on a rampage.
Tara had had her mind messed with for years by her family (so much so that she didn't wonder why it was only the women in her family who were supposed to be demons) and her sanity stolen by Glory. Messing with anyone's mind like that is sick and wrong but so much worse to someone whose been through that before. And when given a second chance Willow proved that she wasn't sorry she did it , she was sorry that she was caught . She didn't get that she had mentally and physically raped Tara .
Willow's acknowledgement of her wrongs to Tara was one of the growing up things to do that I had hoped for in season 7.
Instead we got too many new characters and their whole Look! here's a woman we're afraid to call bisexual (Willow) and a lesbian (Kennedy). Let's throw them together so they can kiss and have sex even though the bisexual witch really needs to learn to control herself instead of getting involved with someone else .And one way of controlling herself would have been celibacy.
That whole relationship just stems from the Jossverse view that seems to exist that if there's a gay woman about she's going to have sex even if the other woman is straight or a bisexual woman who would really be better off with some alone time to think about the massive failing of her morals in her last relationship.
Wouldn't if have made just as much sense for a lesbian Slayer to be someone who, wasn't the type to jump into bed with a virtual stranger, have a girlfriend already (either alive and with her or somewhere safe or killed by Bringers and being grieved) or having heard what Willow did to Tara want nothing to do with her?
Instead they followed the common tread of having women randomly strart making out or have sex . Just like with hetero relationships I require a plot for people to sleep together , If I wanted plotless sex buddies to watch, I'd watch porn or soap operas .Even the PWPs I read involve established couples or at least people who know each other well.
On a side note Satsu mentions that they sent the the other lesbian Slayer (Kennedy) to tell Satsu that there was no relationship with her and Buffy and acknowledge that Buffy led her on (which I said from the beginning). Given the odds and how many Slayers there are, that just isn't possible. The sheer amount of Slayers means that there has to enough gay Slayers for there to be plenty of gay hook ups (both fling and serious) that could happen either within the Slayers or with non Slayer women . They could have a wonderful story about two Slayers in love who fight back to back to save each other and the world.
Instead there's two storylines involving gay women. a supposedly straight women using a gay women who she knows is in love with her for sex and not even acknowledging her existence the next time she sees her after getting two nights of sex out of her and we get Willow keeping her girlfriend away from Willow's friends (maybe isolating her which is one of the things abusers do ) and cheating on her with a snake goddess .
Oct 10 2009 07:25 pm #45ladycat713
Guest
Buffy and the Scoobie didn't defend the innocent just the humans. If they really defended the innocent the Initattive never would've gotten as far as they did . By sheer odds some of those demons were as harmless as Clem, Yet by Scooby rules they would protect a human serial killer (or ignore his crimes) and kill a vegetarian demon just because they see him and don't know what he is.
I think Maryperk had a story that said something like that and Diabola has a ficlet that mentions the view fo a Giles in an alternate universe fo this world and how horrified he is at thier behavior in regards to the Initative http://216.177.134.59/stories.php?go=chapters&no=3961
I'm not sure why Dawn didn't say sorry right away. Maybe she did, but with Kenny being too upset he didn't hear it and cursed her anyway. Like when Anya came to Xander's apartment in Entropy, he told her how sorry he was and how upset he was for the way he ditched her at the wedding, but she didn't hear him, she was too upset to. And is she could grant a wish to herself, Xander would have been erased from existance.
Dawn obviously felt guilty about what she had done to Kenny. She'd told Xander that he was a nice guy and promised to wait, and yet she cheated on him. She was obviously protecting him from Buffy's accusations in #1. She knew she deserved the punishment.
I think the point that was initially being made is that, if he couldn't accept her for who she was--a blunt, tell it like it is person--then he should have just broken up with her instead of harping on it.
Why should he break up with her when he loved her? Couples should talk and discuss their issues and work on their relationship instead of giving up quickly. Xander had admitted that he liked Anya's strange way of talking in I Was Made to Love You, that's not really the problem. The problem was there are some things he didn't like, for example talking about their provate life to their friends, and he wished Anya wouldn't do it. Same with Anya disliking bunnies -which was made to be silly, but it isn't. Xander should respect that as well. I think Xander/Anya is a good ship, they just didn't do what Buffy and Riley didn't do. Talk about their issues! Especially in S6.
Like when Anya told Xander that he was a little boy hiding behind jokes, if it bothered her so much, why not say it before? If she's so honest and blunt, she should have told him it was stupid. They should have helped each other grow, not be afraid to talk about what bothers them until it got too outta hand.
Dawn obviously felt guilty about what she had done to Kenny. She'd told Xander that he was a nice guy and promised to wait, and yet she cheated on him. She was obviously protecting him from Buffy's accusations in #1. She knew she deserved the punishment.
I think the point that was initially being made is that, if he couldn't accept her for who she was--a blunt, tell it like it is person--then he should have just broken up with her instead of harping on it.
Why should he break up with her when he loved her? Couples should talk and discuss their issues and work on their relationship instead of giving up quickly. Xander had admitted that he liked Anya's strange way of talking in I Was Made to Love You, that's not really the problem. The problem was there are some things he didn't like, for example talking about their provate life to their friends, and he wished Anya wouldn't do it. Same with Anya disliking bunnies -which was made to be silly, but it isn't. Xander should respect that as well. I think Xander/Anya is a good ship, they just didn't do what Buffy and Riley didn't do. Talk about their issues! Especially in S6.
Like when Anya told Xander that he was a little boy hiding behind jokes, if it bothered her so much, why not say it before? If she's so honest and blunt, she should have told him it was stupid. They should have helped each other grow, not be afraid to talk about what bothers them until it got too outta hand.
Oct 11 2009 02:35 am #49ladycat713
Guest
He promised to wait before she cheated on him!?? That certainly adds insult to injury. It's like saying I'm ready to have sex , just not with YOU!
Going in a slightly different direction, I'd just like to say that I prefer a Dawn/Xander pairing to a Buffy/Xander one! I got really squicked when the comic made it seem as if Buffy was hoping for some sort of romance with Xander. I've read one or two "friends with benefits" fics that I could sort of see, if I squinted, but an actual full-on sexual/romantic on-going romance between them is a really, really bad idea. IMO.
Buffy knows this, subconsciously. In the comics, she has a dream where they kiss and his head pops off, presumably due to her slayer-powered hug or something. She really needs a partner that is her equal. Also, IMO, but I don't suppose I'll get a lot of disagreement on BSV. (Okay, now I've just invited you all to prove me wrong, haven't i?)
Buffy knows this, subconsciously. In the comics, she has a dream where they kiss and his head pops off, presumably due to her slayer-powered hug or something. She really needs a partner that is her equal. Also, IMO, but I don't suppose I'll get a lot of disagreement on BSV. (Okay, now I've just invited you all to prove me wrong, haven't i?)
Oct 11 2009 04:43 am #51Scarlet Ibis
They should have helped each other grow
Don't get me wrong--I think Xander's great and you know that. But he did nitpick on Anya and her behavior often, like a parent admonishing a child. That isn't helping. That's just how she is. Anya--her "stupid, pointless jokes!" was more about hurting Xander than her actually having a problem of some kind. When she did take issue with something Xander wasn't doing, she did say it. But since she knew Xander, she knew that his silly jokes was a part of his defense mechanism and also his coping device.
He promised to wait before she cheated on him!?? That certainly adds insult to injury. It's like saying I'm ready to have sex , just not with YOU!
Ditto again.
Going in a slightly different direction, I'd just like to say that I prefer a Dawn/Xander pairing to a Buffy/Xander one!
I think Dawn/Xander makes sense. Buffy/Xander no way in hell makes sense. Maybe if they were really old and there just wasn't anyone else...
However, I do think Xander is the one man who could handle Buffy and all of her hangups. He'd go head to head with her, and wouldn't take any of her crap. So...I guess in that sense, I think it could work? I think if Buffy tried to use him or something, he'd totally call her on it, and then shame her for her behavior. They'd have lots of arguments, but I think in the end, they could iron them out, and maybe it could work. But if something like that were to happen, it'd have to be about three to five years post "Chosen" for me to buy it or something. That, or written by theohara.
Don't get me wrong--I think Xander's great and you know that. But he did nitpick on Anya and her behavior often, like a parent admonishing a child. That isn't helping. That's just how she is. Anya--her "stupid, pointless jokes!" was more about hurting Xander than her actually having a problem of some kind. When she did take issue with something Xander wasn't doing, she did say it. But since she knew Xander, she knew that his silly jokes was a part of his defense mechanism and also his coping device.
He promised to wait before she cheated on him!?? That certainly adds insult to injury. It's like saying I'm ready to have sex , just not with YOU!
Ditto again.
Going in a slightly different direction, I'd just like to say that I prefer a Dawn/Xander pairing to a Buffy/Xander one!
I think Dawn/Xander makes sense. Buffy/Xander no way in hell makes sense. Maybe if they were really old and there just wasn't anyone else...
However, I do think Xander is the one man who could handle Buffy and all of her hangups. He'd go head to head with her, and wouldn't take any of her crap. So...I guess in that sense, I think it could work? I think if Buffy tried to use him or something, he'd totally call her on it, and then shame her for her behavior. They'd have lots of arguments, but I think in the end, they could iron them out, and maybe it could work. But if something like that were to happen, it'd have to be about three to five years post "Chosen" for me to buy it or something. That, or written by theohara.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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He promised to wait before she cheated on him!?? That certainly adds insult to injury. It's like saying I'm ready to have sex , just not with YOU!
DAWN: Nick. I’d been dating Kenny for about two months. And it was really good: Kenny was sweet, and romantic, and he didn’t push… then there was this house party – I wasn’t drinking or anything – but I saw his roommate Nick and… Oh it doesn’t matter! There was talk, and then less talk and I’m a skank, Kenny was heartbroken when he found out and now I’m *acres* of skank and it’s just what I deserve. I thought I’d be able to tell Willow, but… how do you explain something like that?
Yep, Dawn was a bitch. But,she admits it and she regrets hurting Kenny. She obviously doesn't know what to do about it? So, she takes her punishment and waits until she gets back to normal.
I don't know about you, guys, but she did sound/act like a grown up here, and I admire her for not twisting the truth, sending Buffy after Kenny, or using her giant body to get back at him. Instead, she does the post-soul Angel/Spike thing: she broods.
But he did nitpick on Anya and her behavior often, like a parent admonishing a child.
I agree. I think it started with Anya wanting to learn how to be human and Xander helping her in that department. After a while, he started to lose himself in the role and Anya doesn't question him. It took Halfrek's comment for Anya to realize that it was getting out of hand. But, other than her grumble in the same episode about it, there was no real talking afterwards. Anya should have explained to Xander that she didn't like how he was correcting her behavior. That's the problem, no communication.
Buffy had pointed out to Xander that he was treating Anya like a convenience, and once he realized he'd been treating her the same way Buffy was treating Riley, he went straight to her and reassured her that he loved her.
Sometimes a person acts like a jerk unknowingly. I think that's what goes on with Xander, he doesn't know he's being conceding, he thinks he's doing the right thing. If Anya threw it in his face that she doesn't like the correcting, he'd back off.
(Personally, I agree with some of Xander's nitpicking. Especially the tactless thing. I admire honest people, but being honest doesn't mean being rude. A person can say the truth in a well-mannered way, which I believe people will accept easier than someone who rudely says it. Rudeness just makes the reciever get more stubborn.)
Good grief! I never have seen the comics, and after reading everything people have posted about the plots, I think Joss has totally lost his vision and turned the series into a sex romp. I think I'll skip Joss's season 8 and stick with the delightful fanfic Spuffy ones instead!
Compared to the comics pairings, Dawn and Xander sound like they'd at least make more sense. Except that in season 7 hadn't Dawn just started high school which would make her a 15 yr. old freshman--too young for anything in the comics and certainly too young for Xander.
Compared to the comics pairings, Dawn and Xander sound like they'd at least make more sense. Except that in season 7 hadn't Dawn just started high school which would make her a 15 yr. old freshman--too young for anything in the comics and certainly too young for Xander.
Except that in season 7 hadn't Dawn just started high school which would make her a 15 yr. old freshman--too young for anything in the comics and certainly too young for Xander.
Dawn was a freshman in S6. She was 16 in S7.
S8 starts a year and a half after S7. Dawn now is a college student, she's 18 years old. Xander is 24. They're kinda like Buffy/Riley in S4, age wise.
Dawn was a freshman in S6. She was 16 in S7.
S8 starts a year and a half after S7. Dawn now is a college student, she's 18 years old. Xander is 24. They're kinda like Buffy/Riley in S4, age wise.
Oct 12 2009 01:48 pm #55Tammy
Guest
Yeah, she told Justin that she was a freshman, so she should have been a sophomore in season 7. I was always confused as to why she said it was her first day of high school in "Lessons." Maybe she just meant her first day at a new school or something.
"The near rape thing isn't even an issue to me because yes, he was possessed, and that tends to make you do things you would never normally do.
The thing that bothers me about that is Xander calling Spike a rapist after Seeing Red, it seemed a bit hypocritical to me. Sure Xander was possesed, but he remembered what happened and pretended amnesia. Even after Spike got his soul, he was still labled as a rapist (even though he didn't go through with it) When Angel got his soul back, he was forgiven all, why wasn't Spike?"
I think that one of the fundamental elements in the story telling and different treatments between Angel/Angelus and Spike is simply that the writers and the JW were still very much committed to the Buffy-Angel Forever arc. If you look at many of the pivotal moments in the relationship between Buffy and Spike and other really big moments in the series, Buffy is always pulled back to her history with Angel/Angelus.
Since were are discussing Xander and Anya and how so many viewers saw him as "hypocritical" - Xander's character suffered much from how the writers used him as a plot movement device but the character a great deal of support for any process of toward his maturation. Take the "Selfless" episode where he begs Buffy to understand his love and need for Anya and for Buffy to show some mercy. Xander and Buffy are both treated in this current "chaos" and tragedy without, IMO, sufficient explaination for how the characters have changed and developed. Of course Xander is easily seen as being totally hypocritical when there has been little, if any, consequences to him from having left Anya at the altar- they only character other than Anya to give him any harsh words for his extremely poor choices is Spike and the circumstances for even this treatment was totally conflicted by the first cemetery scene and the Spike-Xander working together to capture the demon. We end up with a Xander that seems to have had nothing bad come out from how he treats Anya, he is back in the Scooby Love Circle, he expects Anya to forgive him for his not being honest about his "doubts and insecurity" regarding their marriage, and now he begs Buffy to "not do her duty" as The Slayer, when he demanded that she do exactly the same thing with Angel/Angelus. Buffy in totally pulled right back to her younger self with the lines about sending Angel/Angelus into the portal in Acathla the hardest thing in her life and with a big suggestion that she will never ever have to face anything so horrible again, like this was the absolute defining moment of her life.
Of course, many viewers see the Great Big Hypocrite - the writers never gave him any meaningful self-examination and movement toward maturity. What we mostly remember is how horrible Xander acted in "Entrophy" how he acts in Acathla, how he and Giles both dismiss his conduct during "The Pack" how his turned his wedding day into a complete disaster and heart break for Anya. Xander does many wonderful things that counteract many of his worst offenses, but we don't always remember them as easily as we do all his most horrid moments because his worst actions are usually associated with the most pivotal moments in the series.
Another reason that Xander is, IMO, easier to dislike, is that he is the most easily identified as a person that we would meet in our own life and he is also very much like all the rest of us - so filled with potential for being a good person and at the same time fails so easily to be "the best of himself" -
The thing that bothers me about that is Xander calling Spike a rapist after Seeing Red, it seemed a bit hypocritical to me. Sure Xander was possesed, but he remembered what happened and pretended amnesia. Even after Spike got his soul, he was still labled as a rapist (even though he didn't go through with it) When Angel got his soul back, he was forgiven all, why wasn't Spike?"
I think that one of the fundamental elements in the story telling and different treatments between Angel/Angelus and Spike is simply that the writers and the JW were still very much committed to the Buffy-Angel Forever arc. If you look at many of the pivotal moments in the relationship between Buffy and Spike and other really big moments in the series, Buffy is always pulled back to her history with Angel/Angelus.
Since were are discussing Xander and Anya and how so many viewers saw him as "hypocritical" - Xander's character suffered much from how the writers used him as a plot movement device but the character a great deal of support for any process of toward his maturation. Take the "Selfless" episode where he begs Buffy to understand his love and need for Anya and for Buffy to show some mercy. Xander and Buffy are both treated in this current "chaos" and tragedy without, IMO, sufficient explaination for how the characters have changed and developed. Of course Xander is easily seen as being totally hypocritical when there has been little, if any, consequences to him from having left Anya at the altar- they only character other than Anya to give him any harsh words for his extremely poor choices is Spike and the circumstances for even this treatment was totally conflicted by the first cemetery scene and the Spike-Xander working together to capture the demon. We end up with a Xander that seems to have had nothing bad come out from how he treats Anya, he is back in the Scooby Love Circle, he expects Anya to forgive him for his not being honest about his "doubts and insecurity" regarding their marriage, and now he begs Buffy to "not do her duty" as The Slayer, when he demanded that she do exactly the same thing with Angel/Angelus. Buffy in totally pulled right back to her younger self with the lines about sending Angel/Angelus into the portal in Acathla the hardest thing in her life and with a big suggestion that she will never ever have to face anything so horrible again, like this was the absolute defining moment of her life.
Of course, many viewers see the Great Big Hypocrite - the writers never gave him any meaningful self-examination and movement toward maturity. What we mostly remember is how horrible Xander acted in "Entrophy" how he acts in Acathla, how he and Giles both dismiss his conduct during "The Pack" how his turned his wedding day into a complete disaster and heart break for Anya. Xander does many wonderful things that counteract many of his worst offenses, but we don't always remember them as easily as we do all his most horrid moments because his worst actions are usually associated with the most pivotal moments in the series.
Another reason that Xander is, IMO, easier to dislike, is that he is the most easily identified as a person that we would meet in our own life and he is also very much like all the rest of us - so filled with potential for being a good person and at the same time fails so easily to be "the best of himself" -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
The thing that bothers me about that is Xander calling Spike a rapist after Seeing Red, it seemed a bit hypocritical to me. Sure Xander was possesed, but he remembered what happened and pretended amnesia. Even after Spike got his soul, he was still labled as a rapist (even though he didn't go through with it) When Angel got his soul back, he was forgiven all, why wasn't Spike?"
I disagree about calling Xander hypocrite for that. Spike was not possessed in Seeing Red. He was still Spike. So, Xander had every right to hate him in S6, if he didn't, then he's not a good friend to Buffy. As for S7, you can't expect Xander to press a switch button on his emotions just because Spike got a soul. He only mentioned the rape thing once after knowing that Spike was souled, but after that, his feelings towards Spike mellowed a great deal. He was much nicer to him than the rest of the Scoobies, except for Buffy.
And who said Angel was forgiven right away? Revelation shows that he isn't. Xander and Giles still disliked and distrusted him for a while.
Of course Xander is easily seen as being totally hypocritical when there has been little, if any, consequences to him from having left Anya at the altar-
What are those consequences the fans want? Xander went through depression after he left Anya at the altar. He sat alone in his apartment, heavily drinking, he barely cracked a joke, he groveled to Anya, wanting to fix it, said sorry so much times - and most importantly Anya didn’t forgive him. I'd say that's the most appropriate punishment for him. So, yes, he did suffer the consequences for his actions.
And leaving Anya at the altar did change his character, he's not the same goofball anymore. He's quieter, more serious, more understanding than he ever was. S7!Xander is a changed man, I'd even say more mature than Giles himself.
Another reason that Xander is, IMO, easier to dislike, is that he is the most easily identified as a person that we would meet in our own life and he is also very much like all the rest of us - so filled with potential for being a good person and at the same time fails so easily to be "the best of himself" -
I agree 100% with this. One of the biggest reasons why Xander's failings hit the fans more than the other characters'.
I disagree about calling Xander hypocrite for that. Spike was not possessed in Seeing Red. He was still Spike. So, Xander had every right to hate him in S6, if he didn't, then he's not a good friend to Buffy. As for S7, you can't expect Xander to press a switch button on his emotions just because Spike got a soul. He only mentioned the rape thing once after knowing that Spike was souled, but after that, his feelings towards Spike mellowed a great deal. He was much nicer to him than the rest of the Scoobies, except for Buffy.
And who said Angel was forgiven right away? Revelation shows that he isn't. Xander and Giles still disliked and distrusted him for a while.
Of course Xander is easily seen as being totally hypocritical when there has been little, if any, consequences to him from having left Anya at the altar-
What are those consequences the fans want? Xander went through depression after he left Anya at the altar. He sat alone in his apartment, heavily drinking, he barely cracked a joke, he groveled to Anya, wanting to fix it, said sorry so much times - and most importantly Anya didn’t forgive him. I'd say that's the most appropriate punishment for him. So, yes, he did suffer the consequences for his actions.
And leaving Anya at the altar did change his character, he's not the same goofball anymore. He's quieter, more serious, more understanding than he ever was. S7!Xander is a changed man, I'd even say more mature than Giles himself.
Another reason that Xander is, IMO, easier to dislike, is that he is the most easily identified as a person that we would meet in our own life and he is also very much like all the rest of us - so filled with potential for being a good person and at the same time fails so easily to be "the best of himself" -
I agree 100% with this. One of the biggest reasons why Xander's failings hit the fans more than the other characters'.
"And leaving Anya at the altar did change his character, he's not the same goofball anymore. He's quieter, more serious, more understanding than he ever was. S7!Xander is a changed man, I'd even say more mature than Giles himself. "
I do agree with you that Xander is more mature in Season 7 - but the problem for me with the Wedding/Anya arc and the potential "hypocrite or self-centered" interpretation is how he handles the sexual encounter between Spike and Anya. Again, this is strictly my take on his reactions, but he seemed to place the responsibility and blame automatically on Anya - he had some really harsh words for her. What I mean with there being few consequences from his actions with Anya is that he does not seem to suffer much condemnation or troubles with his relationships. He is taken right back into the Bosom of Friendship and inner circle upon his return, he gets to play the "superiority male friend card" against Spike, and then he gets to play the "righteous indignation" wronged partner during "Entrophy." Xander is not particularly in the "sympathetic" character role in the Wedding/Anya arc - and even when he is trying to explain himself to Anya, some viewers, perhaps age makes a difference, see him as not being honest or dealing with the real problems that he felt about his impending marriage. He can't tell Anya or himself that he did not have misgivings about his being ready to get married - he did know. Sure, he is still a very young man and it is time and experience that makes us all wiser, but he asked her to share her life with him, to trust him and give all her love and heart to him and he broke all her trust. Xander is one of those characters that played both so a "good face" and "bad face" - that we finally either like him or dislike him judged primarily on what we want as role models in our own lives.
I really wish that the writers had not taken the "let's get Anya back into the Evil Demon Mode" - so quickly, it might have been more interesting to see how the former demon and her new human status dealt with the human emotional trauma that her wedding and relationship with Xander took.
Back to the original thread topic - I actually like Xander and Dawn as a couple- it seems like a relationship that could have developed in the series. What I really dislike is this idea that Buffy has now developed romantic feelings for Xander - after all these years and all the relationships that she has lived through, it somehow feels more like looking for that fantasy or magic that is going to make things all better or easier, except that it is not real. I hope that Xander and Dawn do work out as a romantic and long lasting couple in the Comic Season. I can't wait to see how this "Retreat" arc is resolved and what the writers and JW will do with the Slayers and Magic premise and how they will continue The Slayers as warriors. There is some pretty strange stuff going on right now what with all the taking up of weapons and Dawn saying "UM, no. because bayonets are cool."
Is the Quote function working? I still can't get it to work on my posts.
I do agree with you that Xander is more mature in Season 7 - but the problem for me with the Wedding/Anya arc and the potential "hypocrite or self-centered" interpretation is how he handles the sexual encounter between Spike and Anya. Again, this is strictly my take on his reactions, but he seemed to place the responsibility and blame automatically on Anya - he had some really harsh words for her. What I mean with there being few consequences from his actions with Anya is that he does not seem to suffer much condemnation or troubles with his relationships. He is taken right back into the Bosom of Friendship and inner circle upon his return, he gets to play the "superiority male friend card" against Spike, and then he gets to play the "righteous indignation" wronged partner during "Entrophy." Xander is not particularly in the "sympathetic" character role in the Wedding/Anya arc - and even when he is trying to explain himself to Anya, some viewers, perhaps age makes a difference, see him as not being honest or dealing with the real problems that he felt about his impending marriage. He can't tell Anya or himself that he did not have misgivings about his being ready to get married - he did know. Sure, he is still a very young man and it is time and experience that makes us all wiser, but he asked her to share her life with him, to trust him and give all her love and heart to him and he broke all her trust. Xander is one of those characters that played both so a "good face" and "bad face" - that we finally either like him or dislike him judged primarily on what we want as role models in our own lives.
I really wish that the writers had not taken the "let's get Anya back into the Evil Demon Mode" - so quickly, it might have been more interesting to see how the former demon and her new human status dealt with the human emotional trauma that her wedding and relationship with Xander took.
Back to the original thread topic - I actually like Xander and Dawn as a couple- it seems like a relationship that could have developed in the series. What I really dislike is this idea that Buffy has now developed romantic feelings for Xander - after all these years and all the relationships that she has lived through, it somehow feels more like looking for that fantasy or magic that is going to make things all better or easier, except that it is not real. I hope that Xander and Dawn do work out as a romantic and long lasting couple in the Comic Season. I can't wait to see how this "Retreat" arc is resolved and what the writers and JW will do with the Slayers and Magic premise and how they will continue The Slayers as warriors. There is some pretty strange stuff going on right now what with all the taking up of weapons and Dawn saying "UM, no. because bayonets are cool."
Is the Quote function working? I still can't get it to work on my posts.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 17 2009 08:25 pm #59John
Guest
Regarding Xander's maturity, I hated how he never stepped up to admit what he did in Once More With Feeling, here innocent people were dying horrible deaths and he never said anything until the end when they all discovered that someone at the Majic Box was the one to summon Sweet.
And then when, after several people dies, Buffy almost burning up, and Dawn kidnapped almost being dragged to hell to be a demon's bride, Xander doesn't say anything and when he finally does, they all act as if Xander was some child who merely broke a vase and didn't come clean about it.
In season 7, although Xander did act MORE like an ADULT, I certainly don't place him on par with Giles, remember the scene where the Scoobies are all joking and laughing about Giles' flashcards and he has to remind them that people are dying and those crudely drawn pictures are mere facsimiles of what is really happening.
And then when, after several people dies, Buffy almost burning up, and Dawn kidnapped almost being dragged to hell to be a demon's bride, Xander doesn't say anything and when he finally does, they all act as if Xander was some child who merely broke a vase and didn't come clean about it.
In season 7, although Xander did act MORE like an ADULT, I certainly don't place him on par with Giles, remember the scene where the Scoobies are all joking and laughing about Giles' flashcards and he has to remind them that people are dying and those crudely drawn pictures are mere facsimiles of what is really happening.
Oct 18 2009 02:34 am #60Spikez_tart
Buffy almost burning up - yes and he doesn't even try to save Buffy, who he supposedly loves. It's Spike, voted person most likely to combust, who rescues her.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
"It's Spike, voted person most likely to combust..."
NICE!
NICE!
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Buffy almost burning up - yes and he doesn't even try to save Buffy, who he supposedly loves.
Um, neither does anyone else who supposedly loves her, like her sister or her father figure or her best friend, so I don't think this is one that we can jump on Xander in particular for.
Of course, it's also probably not a coincidence that the only one able to think quickly enough at that moment to save her is the one person who's NOT in utter shock at Buffy's revelation that she was in heaven. Having that kind of emotional bombshell dropped on you can make rational thinking pretty damn difficult - which, if I read Sweet's motivations correctly, was kind of the point.
Um, neither does anyone else who supposedly loves her, like her sister or her father figure or her best friend, so I don't think this is one that we can jump on Xander in particular for.
Of course, it's also probably not a coincidence that the only one able to think quickly enough at that moment to save her is the one person who's NOT in utter shock at Buffy's revelation that she was in heaven. Having that kind of emotional bombshell dropped on you can make rational thinking pretty damn difficult - which, if I read Sweet's motivations correctly, was kind of the point.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 19 2009 04:58 am #64Spikez_tart
Good points Eow - Don't think they had to know she was in heaven do keep her from killing herself though, and she sings it - so while they still may be mulling over the stupid thing she did and haven't had much time for that, they do know she was not in hell. Also, if they weren't complete idiots, they would have noticed that she's not exactly been cheerful Buffy since she got back. It's true that Xander shouldn't get singled out for bashing here.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 19 2009 10:20 am #65John
Guest
Being oblivious is one thing, not telling everyone that he knew exactly why people were dying because he was responsible for summoning the demon in the first place is something else entirely.
SWEET: (chuckling) I don't make the rules. She summoned me.
DAWN: (to Sweet) I so did not. (to others) He keeps saying that.
SWEET: You have my talisman on, sweet thing.
DAWN: (very nervous) Oh, but, no, I, I, um, uh, this, at, at the Magic Box, on the floor, I was, I was cleaning, and I ... forgot ... but ... I didn't summon anything.
SWEET: Well now, that's a twist.
GILES: If it was in the shop ... then one of us probably...
ANYA: Xander?!
XANDER: Well, I didn't know what was gonna happen! I just thought there were gonna be dances and songs. (to Anya) I just wanted to make sure we'd... we'd work out. (nervous smile) Get a happy ending.
SWEET: (chuckling) I think everything worked out just fine.
XANDER: Does this mean that I have to... (gulp) be your queen?
SWEET: It's tempting. But I think we'll waive that clause just this once. Big smiles everyone! You beat the bad guy.
None of this really makes any sense as usual.
Where and how did Xander summon this thing? And how did Anya know it was Xander? Is there a key scene in another episode that explains all of this?
Another thing could have been that it was a backup plan. Maybe Anya just pointed her finger at Xander, hoping he would play along and pretend that he had summoned the demon.
Maybe Anya knew that if she made Sweet think that Xander had called him forth, he would just go away. After all, she is a thousand years old so maybe she knows more about him then the rest.
DAWN: (to Sweet) I so did not. (to others) He keeps saying that.
SWEET: You have my talisman on, sweet thing.
DAWN: (very nervous) Oh, but, no, I, I, um, uh, this, at, at the Magic Box, on the floor, I was, I was cleaning, and I ... forgot ... but ... I didn't summon anything.
SWEET: Well now, that's a twist.
GILES: If it was in the shop ... then one of us probably...
ANYA: Xander?!
XANDER: Well, I didn't know what was gonna happen! I just thought there were gonna be dances and songs. (to Anya) I just wanted to make sure we'd... we'd work out. (nervous smile) Get a happy ending.
SWEET: (chuckling) I think everything worked out just fine.
XANDER: Does this mean that I have to... (gulp) be your queen?
SWEET: It's tempting. But I think we'll waive that clause just this once. Big smiles everyone! You beat the bad guy.
None of this really makes any sense as usual.
Where and how did Xander summon this thing? And how did Anya know it was Xander? Is there a key scene in another episode that explains all of this?
Another thing could have been that it was a backup plan. Maybe Anya just pointed her finger at Xander, hoping he would play along and pretend that he had summoned the demon.
Maybe Anya knew that if she made Sweet think that Xander had called him forth, he would just go away. After all, she is a thousand years old so maybe she knows more about him then the rest.
- If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your own ambition..
-The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.- A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.
Oct 19 2009 06:15 pm #67Tammy
Guest
Didn't Xander raise his hand? I don't think Anya knew until that point. Does anyone know of a fiction where Xander actually becomes Sweet's queen? That might be really funny.
Oct 19 2009 11:55 pm #68Niori
Guest
Xander does raise his hand to say that it was him (then Anya says Xander).
Xander does raise his hand - and this is also a very important point being made about how Xander already has such grave concerns about his impending marriage that he is willing to use magic as an easy solution to his doubts. Small aside, this incident is an example of why so many viewers have a tendency to see Xander as a contradictory character - he is always so down on Anya about her demon past, but he also calls forth magics to serve his purpose about his marriage and their relationship. And while he did not know that people could be killed by his use of the spell, people were killed.
The morality and incredible skewed standards of responsibility for personal conduct, while helping to create wonderful story telling, at the same time can't help but question the logic in the series.
The morality and incredible skewed standards of responsibility for personal conduct, while helping to create wonderful story telling, at the same time can't help but question the logic in the series.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 20 2009 04:29 am #70Spikez_tart
Where and how did Xander summon this thing? And how did Anya know it was Xander? Is there a key scene in another episode that explains all of this? I don't think there is any foreshadowing for Xander being the one who called down the demon. How stupid is he anyway?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
There is no previous mention of Xander being the one who initiates the spell that summons Sweet - but the fact that Xander mentions that he wanted to make sure that He and Anya worked out, IMO, is a good indication that he has concerns about the future of their relationship -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
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