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BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
The Waning of the Spuffy Heart?
Please join our discussion on how a potential Bangel Canon post Chosen and AtS might effect the Spuffy writers and fandom?
Brought over from the Comic Book Season thread -
Here is something that I have been thinking on lately. And I think this should probably be another thread, but it is connected.
How does all this new Twilight and Buffy-Angel/Angelus effect the Spuffy Hearts and Fans? Of course we don't know what is really going to come out from all this but even if what we end up with is Buffy broken hearted and seriously impaired from her reunion - that she is still so very much in love with Angel/Angelus; it has impact on the Spuffy relationship.
Would this start the beginning of a big fall off from the Spuffy FF fandom? Buffy once again, and as canon still wanting Angel/Angelus - is this like a stake to the heart of Spuffy? How would this effect the writers? If, and I know that nothing too much can be taken from just this one issue, Buffy is still so desperately in love with Angel/Angelus, will the Spuffy writers still have the heart and love to keep going with the theme that Spike is her real partner and equal in love and life?
Spuffy is the way my heart and emotions and intellect want to resolve the powerful story that was presented on television - this "Spuffy" perspective is how my personal history, cultural background and mythic studies lead me. If Joss Whedon finally makes a statement of Buffy and Angel/Angelus as the True Love in his Buffyverse - will this signal a different path for the FF writers and the Spuffy fandom?
I am so completely against the Bangel depicted as a good relationship, that the very serious problems associated with Bangel don't exist or can simply be swept under the rug - that I would have to turn away from The Buffyverse fan base. Canon Bangel post Chosen and AtS would be where I could not follow.
I will start a new thread for this - Please, I hope that we can get a good discussion on this subject -
Brought over from the Comic Book Season thread -
Here is something that I have been thinking on lately. And I think this should probably be another thread, but it is connected.
How does all this new Twilight and Buffy-Angel/Angelus effect the Spuffy Hearts and Fans? Of course we don't know what is really going to come out from all this but even if what we end up with is Buffy broken hearted and seriously impaired from her reunion - that she is still so very much in love with Angel/Angelus; it has impact on the Spuffy relationship.
Would this start the beginning of a big fall off from the Spuffy FF fandom? Buffy once again, and as canon still wanting Angel/Angelus - is this like a stake to the heart of Spuffy? How would this effect the writers? If, and I know that nothing too much can be taken from just this one issue, Buffy is still so desperately in love with Angel/Angelus, will the Spuffy writers still have the heart and love to keep going with the theme that Spike is her real partner and equal in love and life?
Spuffy is the way my heart and emotions and intellect want to resolve the powerful story that was presented on television - this "Spuffy" perspective is how my personal history, cultural background and mythic studies lead me. If Joss Whedon finally makes a statement of Buffy and Angel/Angelus as the True Love in his Buffyverse - will this signal a different path for the FF writers and the Spuffy fandom?
I am so completely against the Bangel depicted as a good relationship, that the very serious problems associated with Bangel don't exist or can simply be swept under the rug - that I would have to turn away from The Buffyverse fan base. Canon Bangel post Chosen and AtS would be where I could not follow.
I will start a new thread for this - Please, I hope that we can get a good discussion on this subject -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 04 2010 06:24 am #2coalitiongirl
I think that the fact that even the Bangel shippers hate this new development says everything about it. It's FAKE. It's a false relationship that seems far too much about destiny and some fated meeting than the characters, and if the comics don't prove me right, then those aren't the characters I love.
Bangel is over. There was no doubt of it before now, and I think that everyone knew that, too. Any feelings left are nostalgia, nothing more. If they're pulling a Cordy/Connor with them, though, I think it'll alienate Bangel fans far more than Spuffy ones.
This really hit me hard, especially since this is the first ship I've ever been so devoted to that I'm emotionally involvedSpuffyin fictional characters. (It's funny. I'd say that Wesley/Lilah is my Buffyverse OTP, but I was never brought to tears over them. Spike can make me cry at least once a season. :D) Seriously. I spent the whole afternoon venting on tagboards and Twitter. :) But the way I feel about this development is very similar to how I felt after Buffy kissed Angel in End of Days. Sick to my stomach, but consigned to Spuffy's new fate. Because I've come to terms with the fact that my ship will never win.
I think that, as Spuffy shippers, we all know that. We DON'T win, and it's part of why our ship is so popular. (The other part is peroxide blond, often naked, and goes under the initials JM. ;) ) We hate what happens, so we change it. And the fact that we're so distant from the story now actually helps. Sure, I was annoyed when Spike and Buffy never had their reunion. But now I'm glad that they didn't, that there's no real chance here that they could be together, because Buffy doesn't even know that Spike's alive. My Spuffy is far from the comics, and these days, I just see them as one long, convoluted fanfic (and not a very good one!) written by several pro-Bangel writers.
Joss may have the final official stance on what happens to Spuffy. But we, as Spuffy shippers, don't have to accept his version anymore. It's a different medium written for a different public, and I'd rather turn to the fanfic writers I trust to work things out in a way that I can accept.
Joss gave us Spike and Buffy, and I'm grateful for that. But now they've become ours to play with, if not in "official" capacity, in the only way that matters.
______________
Oh, right, and if there's any way to change it, Nmcil, can you correct the spelling in the title on the forum to "waning?" It's a pet peeve of mine, and I'm sure that this thread is going to get a lot of attention. :)
Bangel is over. There was no doubt of it before now, and I think that everyone knew that, too. Any feelings left are nostalgia, nothing more. If they're pulling a Cordy/Connor with them, though, I think it'll alienate Bangel fans far more than Spuffy ones.
This really hit me hard, especially since this is the first ship I've ever been so devoted to that I'm emotionally involvedSpuffyin fictional characters. (It's funny. I'd say that Wesley/Lilah is my Buffyverse OTP, but I was never brought to tears over them. Spike can make me cry at least once a season. :D) Seriously. I spent the whole afternoon venting on tagboards and Twitter. :) But the way I feel about this development is very similar to how I felt after Buffy kissed Angel in End of Days. Sick to my stomach, but consigned to Spuffy's new fate. Because I've come to terms with the fact that my ship will never win.
I think that, as Spuffy shippers, we all know that. We DON'T win, and it's part of why our ship is so popular. (The other part is peroxide blond, often naked, and goes under the initials JM. ;) ) We hate what happens, so we change it. And the fact that we're so distant from the story now actually helps. Sure, I was annoyed when Spike and Buffy never had their reunion. But now I'm glad that they didn't, that there's no real chance here that they could be together, because Buffy doesn't even know that Spike's alive. My Spuffy is far from the comics, and these days, I just see them as one long, convoluted fanfic (and not a very good one!) written by several pro-Bangel writers.
Joss may have the final official stance on what happens to Spuffy. But we, as Spuffy shippers, don't have to accept his version anymore. It's a different medium written for a different public, and I'd rather turn to the fanfic writers I trust to work things out in a way that I can accept.
Joss gave us Spike and Buffy, and I'm grateful for that. But now they've become ours to play with, if not in "official" capacity, in the only way that matters.
______________
Oh, right, and if there's any way to change it, Nmcil, can you correct the spelling in the title on the forum to "waning?" It's a pet peeve of mine, and I'm sure that this thread is going to get a lot of attention. :)
Mar 04 2010 06:43 am #3DreamScape99
When I found out about the Angel/Twilight reveal, the fate of Spuffy was definitely the first thing that came to mind although I didn't think to much of it because frankly I haven't really kept up with the comics, but reading what you (nmcil) have posted here makes me rethink the whole situation.
I know in my heart no matter what happens in the canon that I will always be a Spuffy fan. It's been too much a part of my life for too long to just let it die, but my love for the Spuffy and my love for Joss Whedon are two different things. If Joss Whedon were to announce that Bangel was the end to end all true love, his reputation as a shocking storyteller would be lost on me. The Bangel relationship is done and outplayed (especially due to the similarities with Twilight series craze, both of which I really don't want to see anymore of) and for Whedon to just bring it back up would contradict everything I love about him. That fact gives me hope that Whedon will surprise us.
I've always been a Spuffy fan and believe that relationship to be the most logical choice from everything I've read, watched, or personally experienced, there are Bangel fans, and by that fact alone its proven that Joss could share that outlook. Who knows maybe all us Spuffy fans are completely missing the big picture where the Bangel relationship is actually sound......I really hope not.
**
Also I completely agree with you, coalitiongirl, as Spuffy fans we fight for the underdog because Spike's our underdog and we wouldn't love him any other way :)
I know in my heart no matter what happens in the canon that I will always be a Spuffy fan. It's been too much a part of my life for too long to just let it die, but my love for the Spuffy and my love for Joss Whedon are two different things. If Joss Whedon were to announce that Bangel was the end to end all true love, his reputation as a shocking storyteller would be lost on me. The Bangel relationship is done and outplayed (especially due to the similarities with Twilight series craze, both of which I really don't want to see anymore of) and for Whedon to just bring it back up would contradict everything I love about him. That fact gives me hope that Whedon will surprise us.
I've always been a Spuffy fan and believe that relationship to be the most logical choice from everything I've read, watched, or personally experienced, there are Bangel fans, and by that fact alone its proven that Joss could share that outlook. Who knows maybe all us Spuffy fans are completely missing the big picture where the Bangel relationship is actually sound......I really hope not.
**
Also I completely agree with you, coalitiongirl, as Spuffy fans we fight for the underdog because Spike's our underdog and we wouldn't love him any other way :)
Mar 04 2010 06:44 am #4lostboy
Guest
Look, it's all a dream. Doesn't anybody remember "Dallas?"
Comics are all about the "do-over" and the "retcon." The thing is, you can do anything with them. Remember when Superman died? Not! I'm sure that Spuffy will get its "official" due someday... even if it's just to beef up waning sales.
-Lostboy
Comics are all about the "do-over" and the "retcon." The thing is, you can do anything with them. Remember when Superman died? Not! I'm sure that Spuffy will get its "official" due someday... even if it's just to beef up waning sales.
-Lostboy
How does it effect me- well, I`m just gonna have to read more fanfiction written by you lovely Spuffy writers and write some of my own, and ingore the comics altogether.
No matter how the comics go, thank the gods for fanfiction that can fix the stupidity.
No matter how the comics go, thank the gods for fanfiction that can fix the stupidity.
~ Niori ~
Mar 04 2010 07:18 am #6ladycat173
Guest
If I considered Season 8 to be canon I'd have to give up on Spuffy because it is a massive case of character assassination for many of the characters but Buffy especially.
At least before the comic I could see Buffy as a flawed person who could become a better person if she learned to think about the consequences of her actions and learned to apoligize with genuine remorse.
In Season 8 though , her actions have such a widespread effect on what she's teaching these girls that the damage can never be completely fixed.
And if JW thinks that Bangel is an example of true love , then he needs some serious therapy.
At least before the comic I could see Buffy as a flawed person who could become a better person if she learned to think about the consequences of her actions and learned to apoligize with genuine remorse.
In Season 8 though , her actions have such a widespread effect on what she's teaching these girls that the damage can never be completely fixed.
And if JW thinks that Bangel is an example of true love , then he needs some serious therapy.
Spuffy is the only fictional pair I've ever cared about and loved so much, so no matter what happens in the comics that will never change.I'll just continue reading Spuffy fanfic and believing that they will be together and happy. Joss can do what he wants.Doesn't mean I have to take it as canon. But, let's not forget this is only #33, so there's lots more story to tell.And Joss takes over from #36 to 40. Who knows how it'll end up? Don't think it'll be B/A 4EVA, but who knows?
The reason I love Spike is because he's the underdog, Never gets what he wants, loves with all his heart and doesn't believe he deserves love. That's why I <3 him. *wraps Spike in bubble wrap and puts him in a Bangel-proof box where his poor heart will never be broken*.He isn't up on some pedestal with a shiny halo thinking he's the ONE, the Hero that knows what's best for everyone and manipulates all those around him, and who always comes out on top no matter what. That's Angel, and to me that's annoying and boring as hell.
And I agree ,if Joss thinks Bangel is what true love is supposed to be he is seriously screwed in the head and should seek therapy pronto. ;)
The reason I love Spike is because he's the underdog, Never gets what he wants, loves with all his heart and doesn't believe he deserves love. That's why I <3 him. *wraps Spike in bubble wrap and puts him in a Bangel-proof box where his poor heart will never be broken*.He isn't up on some pedestal with a shiny halo thinking he's the ONE, the Hero that knows what's best for everyone and manipulates all those around him, and who always comes out on top no matter what. That's Angel, and to me that's annoying and boring as hell.
And I agree ,if Joss thinks Bangel is what true love is supposed to be he is seriously screwed in the head and should seek therapy pronto. ;)
Thanks for the spell correction - waning is what it should have been - guess the spell check did not include the title. Hope I can fix it.
Can anyone help with the correcton for thread title - is there a way I can fix it? If not, maybe one of the mods could make the correction -
Can anyone help with the correcton for thread title - is there a way I can fix it? If not, maybe one of the mods could make the correction -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I'll be happy just as long as our fine Spuffy writers continue to show us what should have been happening through Seasons 1 to 7, why let Season 8 be any different? From what I've read about Season 8 on this forum, it sounds like Whedon is flogging a dead horse. Shame on him, if that's so. :shake:
Mar 04 2010 12:02 pm #10pfeifferpack
Guest
One reason I started writing was to twist things the way I thought they SHOULD go (giving me what I "want" not what Joss said I "needed"....I didn't need out of the blue forced "love stories" that didn't work like Bangel...I didn't need every happy or potentially happy couple torn apart by death, etc.) I believe strongly in Spuffy. THAT is a love story, a relationship that has a foundation, that had rose colored glasses off, that brought out the best in each party (or had that potential), one that had lasting power...an ADULT relationship between adults. Nope, I will just have more to "fix" thanks to this disgusting turn of events so I'll likely have more fodder to write my twists, my stories and will read fan fiction (much better written than what Dark Horse has given us).
I really don't get the whole "Angel is her home" and how they are supposedly ordained to be together? That is as forced as the S1 out-of-the-blue deep love! It sounds like Angel's ego talking. He never knew Buffy back then and even less now. She never knew him and wouldn't like or accept him as we know him (at least the Buffy from the show wouldn't...she'd be calling him on all the "wrong" he was choosing....who knows about bank robbing, killing Buffy of the comics!).
I am in complete agreement that it is sad if Joss truly believes that Bangel represents a romantic ideal. It is also sad if the writers truly didn't see what we did with Spuffy. Are THEY 12?
I plan to continue writing as long as inspired and crap like this inspires me in the sense that I just want to grab my keyboard and fix it LOL.
Kathleen
I really don't get the whole "Angel is her home" and how they are supposedly ordained to be together? That is as forced as the S1 out-of-the-blue deep love! It sounds like Angel's ego talking. He never knew Buffy back then and even less now. She never knew him and wouldn't like or accept him as we know him (at least the Buffy from the show wouldn't...she'd be calling him on all the "wrong" he was choosing....who knows about bank robbing, killing Buffy of the comics!).
I am in complete agreement that it is sad if Joss truly believes that Bangel represents a romantic ideal. It is also sad if the writers truly didn't see what we did with Spuffy. Are THEY 12?
I plan to continue writing as long as inspired and crap like this inspires me in the sense that I just want to grab my keyboard and fix it LOL.
Kathleen
Mar 04 2010 01:43 pm #11Charlie Aome
Guest
I refuse to believe that Spuffy fans would give up because of the stupid comics. Yes there a "continuation" of the show but i think we all know what rubbish they are. Spuffy has no chance in hell and isn't even dealt with which is just rude since if the writers did their homework they'd know that the Spuffy ship has HUGE fan base so ya. I have no intentions of stopping my reading or writing of Spike and Buffy as true love no matter what the comics say. I quit reading the comics that's what we should do. I quit a while ago like a long while but i wanted to support Spuffy here. It is not ok that we are neglected but i think we actively support Spuffy as best we can with great love stories and tales of a true romance :)
I still cannot get past the idea that "true love" exists between a (taking the vampire thing out of the equation) 28 (or older) year old man and a 15 (or possibly younger!) girl. There's a huge question mark in my head and warning signals in my brain. No 15 year old girl knows what she wants for dinner, much less the rest of her life. And a 28 year old man eyeing a fifteen year old? Um. Dude, there's laws against that.
Destiny? Really? Destiny was Whistler telling Angel that she needs his help -- not that he was her lowve, her twue lowve. It was Angel's twisted need for virgins that made him think she was his love. And show me any 15 year old girl who isn't going to convince herself she's in love because some cool older guy is mooning after her -- because that's exactly what Buffy did. She convinced herself that Angel loved her and then convinced herself she was in love with him.
That's not true love. That's not even love. That's obsession tied up in a pretty bow.
None of the characters are perfect, they all had their faults. But while Bangel is all about having to face twisted obsession and convincing the characters they're in love, the Spuffy relationship grew out of many, many moments of bonding. Spike fell in love with Buffy despite his actual loathing of her and his belief that she was a shallow, silly, insipid little girl who mooned after something she could never have. Buffy fell in love with Spike despite hating everything about him, up to and including the fact he wasn't Angel. Falling in love despite the other person's character flaws, to me says more about the strength of that love than anything else. Because like Spike said, "love isn't brains, children".
You don't convince yourself you're in love. You either are, or you aren't.
And as for JW? He's not the genius everyone touts him to be, he's just a guy who managed to create some characters that captured our attention. He's been stuck on an idea of "Bangel" or even "Bander" from the beginning. And now that he can do what he likes without input from the actors portraying these characters, he's going to get what he wants, regardless of character growth or progression or whatever other factors existed when the shows ended. And hey, if we can write what we like, so can he. But that doesn't mean I have to buy it or even like it. So I'm not going to. I have no intention of buying any of the current season 8 comics and unless something changes drastically, I don't see myself buying them in the future. IMHO, these comics jumped the shark when Buffy had an encounter with Satsu. I would've bought a Buffy/Faith thing, and could've done it way back in season 3, but now? After Spike? Ah. No. I just don't see it.
And I can write what I like, and ship who I like. Comics be damned.
Destiny? Really? Destiny was Whistler telling Angel that she needs his help -- not that he was her lowve, her twue lowve. It was Angel's twisted need for virgins that made him think she was his love. And show me any 15 year old girl who isn't going to convince herself she's in love because some cool older guy is mooning after her -- because that's exactly what Buffy did. She convinced herself that Angel loved her and then convinced herself she was in love with him.
That's not true love. That's not even love. That's obsession tied up in a pretty bow.
None of the characters are perfect, they all had their faults. But while Bangel is all about having to face twisted obsession and convincing the characters they're in love, the Spuffy relationship grew out of many, many moments of bonding. Spike fell in love with Buffy despite his actual loathing of her and his belief that she was a shallow, silly, insipid little girl who mooned after something she could never have. Buffy fell in love with Spike despite hating everything about him, up to and including the fact he wasn't Angel. Falling in love despite the other person's character flaws, to me says more about the strength of that love than anything else. Because like Spike said, "love isn't brains, children".
You don't convince yourself you're in love. You either are, or you aren't.
And as for JW? He's not the genius everyone touts him to be, he's just a guy who managed to create some characters that captured our attention. He's been stuck on an idea of "Bangel" or even "Bander" from the beginning. And now that he can do what he likes without input from the actors portraying these characters, he's going to get what he wants, regardless of character growth or progression or whatever other factors existed when the shows ended. And hey, if we can write what we like, so can he. But that doesn't mean I have to buy it or even like it. So I'm not going to. I have no intention of buying any of the current season 8 comics and unless something changes drastically, I don't see myself buying them in the future. IMHO, these comics jumped the shark when Buffy had an encounter with Satsu. I would've bought a Buffy/Faith thing, and could've done it way back in season 3, but now? After Spike? Ah. No. I just don't see it.
And I can write what I like, and ship who I like. Comics be damned.
nmcil, the Bangel fans still shipped Buffy and Angel together even after Angel left, the Bander fans still shipped Buffy and Xander together even when Xander had clearly moved on after S2, the Spander fans still shipped Spike and Xander together even though their ship isn't canon. All those ships are popular and going strongly in fandom, even though their shippers haven't been satisfied for years. Or in Spander's case, never.
It doesn't matter. Canon is there, fanfic writers can use whatever they want for their fics, take every element and work a fic out of it. Most of the fics are about fixing what we don't like in canon. Obviously, S8 is filled with things fans want to fix, it's the perfect inspiring point. It inspired me to write my very first Spuffy and hopefully, I'll write more Spuffy in the future, but I really have S8 to thank. I also want to thank it for the perfection Emmie is writing; "Thought You Should Know", you really need to read it. It's a wonderful Spuffy journey. It also focuses on the decoy in Italy with the Immortal, very interesting.
So, whatever happens. I'll still ship Buffy/Spike, Xander/Spike, Xander/Giles, and Buffy/Xander. I never thought the day of me shipping Xander/Buffy would EVER come. :lol: Again, S8's doing.
It doesn't matter. Canon is there, fanfic writers can use whatever they want for their fics, take every element and work a fic out of it. Most of the fics are about fixing what we don't like in canon. Obviously, S8 is filled with things fans want to fix, it's the perfect inspiring point. It inspired me to write my very first Spuffy and hopefully, I'll write more Spuffy in the future, but I really have S8 to thank. I also want to thank it for the perfection Emmie is writing; "Thought You Should Know", you really need to read it. It's a wonderful Spuffy journey. It also focuses on the decoy in Italy with the Immortal, very interesting.
So, whatever happens. I'll still ship Buffy/Spike, Xander/Spike, Xander/Giles, and Buffy/Xander. I never thought the day of me shipping Xander/Buffy would EVER come. :lol: Again, S8's doing.
Mar 04 2010 07:00 pm #14Scarlet
Guest
First let me say that the comics aren't my canon.
Second, maybe Joss deep down loves Spike, since he hasn't (thus far) assassinated his character like he did to the rest of them.
And third, perhaps if we all ignore it, maybe it'll go away...
<--wants Espenson to pen a Spike movie played by Marsters. Yep :P
Second, maybe Joss deep down loves Spike, since he hasn't (thus far) assassinated his character like he did to the rest of them.
And third, perhaps if we all ignore it, maybe it'll go away...
<--wants Espenson to pen a Spike movie played by Marsters. Yep :P
Mar 04 2010 08:41 pm #15pfeifferpack
I agree that JW is overrated. The magic was a cumulation of many talents (and not some small bit of being in SPITE of some of them). Joss is far too predictable to be genius IMHO.
I had yet another JW image thought......Joss is always saying the potentials being made Slayers was about "girl power". He always swore that Buffy in general was about feminism (even though I sure didn't get that in the way he had to have his strong women either magiced up or with special powers...even changing Willow and Fred to fit that mold, or he killed them off like Tara or Joyce). Anyway.......By giving Buffy even MORE powers (because Slayer powers, you know, aren't nearly enough!) in the comics? Angel gets supped up too? Where is the Girl Power there? Where is the feminist message that even super powered as Slayer Buffy is she is still needing that extra oomph?????
Kathleen
I had yet another JW image thought......Joss is always saying the potentials being made Slayers was about "girl power". He always swore that Buffy in general was about feminism (even though I sure didn't get that in the way he had to have his strong women either magiced up or with special powers...even changing Willow and Fred to fit that mold, or he killed them off like Tara or Joyce). Anyway.......By giving Buffy even MORE powers (because Slayer powers, you know, aren't nearly enough!) in the comics? Angel gets supped up too? Where is the Girl Power there? Where is the feminist message that even super powered as Slayer Buffy is she is still needing that extra oomph?????
Kathleen
Mar 04 2010 08:51 pm #16Scarlet Ibis
Where is the Girl Power there? Where is the feminist message that even super powered as Slayer Buffy is she is still needing that extra oomph?????
Eh, cause it's not. I never really got the whole "girl power" message, when you had standard, human women in the same universe.
And the comics sound more like "The Power of the Mighty Dunce Cap!" IMO.
Eh, cause it's not. I never really got the whole "girl power" message, when you had standard, human women in the same universe.
And the comics sound more like "The Power of the Mighty Dunce Cap!" IMO.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 04 2010 10:13 pm #17pfeifferpack
Guest
Exactly sweetness! It has never been about Girl Power no matter how Joss wants to frame it. This just puts the last nail in that coffin in my opinion.
Kathleen
Kathleen
Scarlet Ibis -
another great icon - NICE
The subject of "girl/woman empowerment" is part of the discuss on sites - what I want to know is, WTF happened to that big emotional power "are you ready to be strong?" I totally hated his treatment of Buffy and the I still think about us (paraphrase) end to the Buffy-Angel/Angelus scene. Where the hell is the path to growth and knowledge, when is Buffy going to be allowed to grow up and move on? Why does the female/model have to still even be capable of being effected by her adolescent love life - what I have always been pissed off about since "Chosen" is that he still makes Buffy carry all that baggage. Speculation includes that this may well be the final demise of either Angel/Angelus or Spike in her world.
Who knows what lurks (and yes intended) in the mind of Joss Whedon and his future vision for the Buffyverse. Me,, I'm all for Bad Ass Fray to send some of those "bring it on" ripples to Buffy. How can all this be resolved and still leave IDW with a viable hero/champion character without it having to "clean up or white wash" Angel/Angelus once again. For that matter, WTF will this do to all the powerful arcs created in the television canon? The entire power of Angel/Angelus was founded on the Gypsy curse being a punishment, not a vehicle for reward. Now with Buffy, assuming even under the control of the green power (maybe "green power" is a connection to "cleaning up the trashing of the planet" that we are doing - what with Buffy and Willow now taking on the symbols of Mother Earth/Goddess) being capable of being effected by that Twangel Twaddle, it just make her look like the same poor lost little girl that Spike calls her during Buffy's other train wreck. Instead of the building being wrecked, we might have all her love, history, and love life face the wrecking ball. What I hate is that this seems to keep Buffy tied to her teen and young girl status and history with Angel/Angelus. How the heck are all those killings and destruction from the past year going to be cleared or explained away? From where I am sitting all I can think about is how death and wars are never the good answer and never really solve a problem.
I'm still going with Twangel is the not the Big Cheese in this affair -
another great icon - NICE
The subject of "girl/woman empowerment" is part of the discuss on sites - what I want to know is, WTF happened to that big emotional power "are you ready to be strong?" I totally hated his treatment of Buffy and the I still think about us (paraphrase) end to the Buffy-Angel/Angelus scene. Where the hell is the path to growth and knowledge, when is Buffy going to be allowed to grow up and move on? Why does the female/model have to still even be capable of being effected by her adolescent love life - what I have always been pissed off about since "Chosen" is that he still makes Buffy carry all that baggage. Speculation includes that this may well be the final demise of either Angel/Angelus or Spike in her world.
Who knows what lurks (and yes intended) in the mind of Joss Whedon and his future vision for the Buffyverse. Me,, I'm all for Bad Ass Fray to send some of those "bring it on" ripples to Buffy. How can all this be resolved and still leave IDW with a viable hero/champion character without it having to "clean up or white wash" Angel/Angelus once again. For that matter, WTF will this do to all the powerful arcs created in the television canon? The entire power of Angel/Angelus was founded on the Gypsy curse being a punishment, not a vehicle for reward. Now with Buffy, assuming even under the control of the green power (maybe "green power" is a connection to "cleaning up the trashing of the planet" that we are doing - what with Buffy and Willow now taking on the symbols of Mother Earth/Goddess) being capable of being effected by that Twangel Twaddle, it just make her look like the same poor lost little girl that Spike calls her during Buffy's other train wreck. Instead of the building being wrecked, we might have all her love, history, and love life face the wrecking ball. What I hate is that this seems to keep Buffy tied to her teen and young girl status and history with Angel/Angelus. How the heck are all those killings and destruction from the past year going to be cleared or explained away? From where I am sitting all I can think about is how death and wars are never the good answer and never really solve a problem.
I'm still going with Twangel is the not the Big Cheese in this affair -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 04 2010 11:05 pm #19Always_jbj
Moderator
his future vision for the Buffyverse
Okay, I must start by saying: I don't read comics...any comics, so I'm not just singling out the BtVS comics tp avoid reading.
But from what I've heard in the way of comic discussions, Joss doesn't have a vision for the Buffyverse...he's simply taking the piss! At least that's how it strikes me.
And he's probably sitting back somewhere laughing about the fact that people are actually spending money on this crack...and that they are getting their knickers in a knot over everything he is doing.
Okay, I must start by saying: I don't read comics...any comics, so I'm not just singling out the BtVS comics tp avoid reading.
But from what I've heard in the way of comic discussions, Joss doesn't have a vision for the Buffyverse...he's simply taking the piss! At least that's how it strikes me.
And he's probably sitting back somewhere laughing about the fact that people are actually spending money on this crack...and that they are getting their knickers in a knot over everything he is doing.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Mar 04 2010 11:53 pm #20slaymesoftly
Moderator
Ah, C. You are soooo cynical. LOL And probably very right. :)
Well, well said, Niamh!
Well, well said, Niamh!
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Mar 05 2010 12:07 am #21ladycat713
Guest
Yeah Buffy sleeping with Satsu was definitely a shark jumper. Buffy used a (possibly underaged) girl who she knows is madly in love with her and who she's been held up to her and others as the greatest Slayer ever for sex , then quickly promotes her to another country to get rid of her so that even if she was qualified for the job , her promotion would always be questionable . Then the next time she sees her again she ignores her existence. Even the character of Kennedy acknowledged that Buffy led her on .
If a male character did this , people would be calling for his genitals not referring to it as sexy.
And yes JW believes overmuch in his own publicity. He's done good but he isn't perfect and now thinks he can do no wrong. Season 8 is a great example of how much wrong he can do. I think his vision for the Buffyverse has glaucoma , because I'm just not seeing it and I don't want what I have seen in the comics.
And it does seem like he never wants Buffy to grow up and become an adult . Unfortunately that means an immature girl with a lot of power is in charge of a lot of other possibly immature girls and we've seen the damage done already . Buffy needs to be stopped before she teaches more badness to these girls.
It makes you wonder if there's something in Slayers that keeps them from maturing once they get thier powers (Nikki Wood was probably more mature before she was called) . If that's part of the mythos, then the Buffyverse World is doomed. The ones who were taught that they were the one and developed an ego because of it (like Kennedy) probably wouldn't be helped by that.
If a male character did this , people would be calling for his genitals not referring to it as sexy.
And yes JW believes overmuch in his own publicity. He's done good but he isn't perfect and now thinks he can do no wrong. Season 8 is a great example of how much wrong he can do. I think his vision for the Buffyverse has glaucoma , because I'm just not seeing it and I don't want what I have seen in the comics.
And it does seem like he never wants Buffy to grow up and become an adult . Unfortunately that means an immature girl with a lot of power is in charge of a lot of other possibly immature girls and we've seen the damage done already . Buffy needs to be stopped before she teaches more badness to these girls.
It makes you wonder if there's something in Slayers that keeps them from maturing once they get thier powers (Nikki Wood was probably more mature before she was called) . If that's part of the mythos, then the Buffyverse World is doomed. The ones who were taught that they were the one and developed an ego because of it (like Kennedy) probably wouldn't be helped by that.
Mar 05 2010 12:46 am #22Always_jbj
Moderator
Cynical...me? Surely not! lol
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Mar 05 2010 05:04 am #23Spikez_tart
Satsu underaged - okay I hadn't thought about that and EWWWW
Bangel is over. There was no doubt of it before now, and I think that everyone knew that, too. Any feelings left are nostalgia, nothing more. - YES YES YES. Angel was always more about getting redemption than he was about loving the 16 year old twit (lovable) Buffy. He moves on to a more mature love - Cordy (questionable in my mind, but it makes a certain amount of sense.) Buffy also moves on to a more mature love - a man who challenges her, who accepts her but doesn't kiss her butt (well maybe) and tell her that every thing she does is just dandy.
The comics suck and even Joss knows it - hence his willingness to dump it if given the opportunity to make a new movie.
Bangel is over. There was no doubt of it before now, and I think that everyone knew that, too. Any feelings left are nostalgia, nothing more. - YES YES YES. Angel was always more about getting redemption than he was about loving the 16 year old twit (lovable) Buffy. He moves on to a more mature love - Cordy (questionable in my mind, but it makes a certain amount of sense.) Buffy also moves on to a more mature love - a man who challenges her, who accepts her but doesn't kiss her butt (well maybe) and tell her that every thing she does is just dandy.
The comics suck and even Joss knows it - hence his willingness to dump it if given the opportunity to make a new movie.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
"But from what I've heard in the way of comic discussions, Joss doesn't have a vision for the Buffyverse...he's simply taking the piss! At least that's how it strikes me.
And he's probably sitting back somewhere laughing about the fact that people are actually spending money on this crack...and that they are getting their knickers in a knot over everything he is doing."
And he's probably sitting back somewhere laughing about the fact that people are actually spending money on this crack...and that they are getting their knickers in a knot over everything he is doing."
You are more than likely right - I'm just still really naive when it comes to people and especially with someone like Joss Whedon whose work I do totally admire in the TV series. I believe what people say, just like I believed all the stuff about the business arrangement between DarkHorse and IDW and not having the characters be involved any crossovers - respecting the rights of IDW to produce the franchise for the Angelverse - Well, I was obviously totally taken in. And no question on all the money the fans have spent trying to satisfying the Buffyverse cravings. If someone had told me that I would spend even one dollar on a fan magazine I would have laughed over it.
Joss Whedon comes over very sincere on the dvd interviews and so that adds to my acceptance of his pubic speaking life - have to admit that when the big spoiler reveal came out I really got that I've been had feeling. I'm also thinking that this might be just what I need to start backing away from giving so much time to my Buffyverse fan time.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 05 2010 05:53 am #25coalitiongirl
I've changed my stance (since yesterday, I know! I've reached stage 3: bargaining... :D) and I'm holding out until the next two or so issues before I make any more judgments- because all this has done is convince me that the season won't end in Bangel...which is something.
Oh, and anyone who wants to feel a little better about all this:
LINK
But we've reached a low point indeed when I'm actually wishing that any of the writers would come back. Even Marti Noxon. :D (But, of course, my real vote is for Jane Espenson.)
Oh, and anyone who wants to feel a little better about all this:
LINK
But we've reached a low point indeed when I'm actually wishing that any of the writers would come back. Even Marti Noxon. :D (But, of course, my real vote is for Jane Espenson.)
And yes JW believes overmuch in his own publicity. He's done good but he isn't perfect and now thinks he can do no wrong. Season 8 is a great example of how much wrong he can do. I think his vision for the Buffyverse has glaucoma , because I'm just not seeing it and I don't want what I have seen in the comics.
Absofreakinglutely. ~sings out Amen with the choir~
Joss boxed himself into a corner when he gave Angel a soul. Once he'd done that, he couldn't do anything with the character. Couldn't show how much he'd changed (except in flashbacks) or allow him to progress further. So, in an effort to help boost a flagging ship (it was already getting bbbbboooooorrrrrrriiiiiinnnnngggg in season 1) he invented the stupid curse. And the *gasps* mystical way to remove it. Gypsies are inventive, I'll give you that, but to loop-hole a curse? Why on earth would they do that? You want someone to suffer forever when you curse them, not just until they get a happy. First example of logic thrown out the window (and really, breaking a curse because you deflower a virgin? ICKY!).
Sometimes I wonder if Joss even knew how to look up logic in the dictionary.
So, because he couldn't do anything to add tension into the Borangel relationship, he retconned himself. IN SEASON 2!!!
Which just set the damn tone over and over again. When Joss didn't like something or got stuck on one idea, he retconned his own show to make it work. The hell?
Usually when you're writing a story, or you come up with an idea for a story, you have the whole thing mapped out in your head, at least the basic plot, anyway. There always has to be room for the characters to grow and evolve and to change the details of the story as their characters grow. Joss didn't allow for that. He was openly hostile about certain things, and he only wrote Something Blue out of spite because SMG kept harping on the idea that Buffy would stick to vampires, because to her, that made sense. And he was pissy about it (I'd imagine) when SB proved to be one of the most popular episodes ever. Hell, I think there's been more words written on SB than there were in War and Peace.
Joss didn't want Spike to be popular. He wanted Xander to get the girl in the end, because he identified with Xander. Talk about yer MarySue. Because I don't care how twisted and "edgy" you believe yourself to be -- no author wants to purposely torture his characters the way Joss did -- because those characters are your babies, in a way. You fall in love with each and every one of them. And you try and do your best by the characters, feed them wonderful lines, give them thrilling circumstances and situations and hopefully give them a reason to exist by allowing them some measure of a happy ending. Just how screwed in the head is JW that he can't seem to allow one of his characters, except the one-dimensional Angel, something of a happy ending?
And okay, so more than one writer had a hand in the development of the characters, but didn't any one of these geniuses invest in a freaking storyboard? Have any of them even heard of a storyboard? Great merciful Zeus! How about hiring someone to keep an eye on continuity? Just one person would have been sufficient! Sometimes I wonder if some of the writers had even seen the bloody show before they started writing scripts!! (And don't even get me started on the nitwit he hired to Executive Produce after he wandered off to play with AtS and Firefly!)
While I love the universe JW created, I'm not that blind that I can't see how flawed it truly was. And time and perspective only highlight how ridiculous some of the tangents really were.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again ~ great idea, lousy follow-through.
Absofreakinglutely. ~sings out Amen with the choir~
Joss boxed himself into a corner when he gave Angel a soul. Once he'd done that, he couldn't do anything with the character. Couldn't show how much he'd changed (except in flashbacks) or allow him to progress further. So, in an effort to help boost a flagging ship (it was already getting bbbbboooooorrrrrrriiiiiinnnnngggg in season 1) he invented the stupid curse. And the *gasps* mystical way to remove it. Gypsies are inventive, I'll give you that, but to loop-hole a curse? Why on earth would they do that? You want someone to suffer forever when you curse them, not just until they get a happy. First example of logic thrown out the window (and really, breaking a curse because you deflower a virgin? ICKY!).
Sometimes I wonder if Joss even knew how to look up logic in the dictionary.
So, because he couldn't do anything to add tension into the Borangel relationship, he retconned himself. IN SEASON 2!!!
Which just set the damn tone over and over again. When Joss didn't like something or got stuck on one idea, he retconned his own show to make it work. The hell?
Usually when you're writing a story, or you come up with an idea for a story, you have the whole thing mapped out in your head, at least the basic plot, anyway. There always has to be room for the characters to grow and evolve and to change the details of the story as their characters grow. Joss didn't allow for that. He was openly hostile about certain things, and he only wrote Something Blue out of spite because SMG kept harping on the idea that Buffy would stick to vampires, because to her, that made sense. And he was pissy about it (I'd imagine) when SB proved to be one of the most popular episodes ever. Hell, I think there's been more words written on SB than there were in War and Peace.
Joss didn't want Spike to be popular. He wanted Xander to get the girl in the end, because he identified with Xander. Talk about yer MarySue. Because I don't care how twisted and "edgy" you believe yourself to be -- no author wants to purposely torture his characters the way Joss did -- because those characters are your babies, in a way. You fall in love with each and every one of them. And you try and do your best by the characters, feed them wonderful lines, give them thrilling circumstances and situations and hopefully give them a reason to exist by allowing them some measure of a happy ending. Just how screwed in the head is JW that he can't seem to allow one of his characters, except the one-dimensional Angel, something of a happy ending?
And okay, so more than one writer had a hand in the development of the characters, but didn't any one of these geniuses invest in a freaking storyboard? Have any of them even heard of a storyboard? Great merciful Zeus! How about hiring someone to keep an eye on continuity? Just one person would have been sufficient! Sometimes I wonder if some of the writers had even seen the bloody show before they started writing scripts!! (And don't even get me started on the nitwit he hired to Executive Produce after he wandered off to play with AtS and Firefly!)
While I love the universe JW created, I'm not that blind that I can't see how flawed it truly was. And time and perspective only highlight how ridiculous some of the tangents really were.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again ~ great idea, lousy follow-through.
I agree so much with the comments other people made above, so there is no point in repeating them. Instead, here are a few more thoughts.
I fear Joss sold out the integrity of the story and characters long ago and is now serving another mistress named $$$, the almighty dollar. The comics are not about advancing the characterizations or bringing resolution to the plot threads of the TV series. It is about dragging it out as long as possible to make more money. I have a lot of admiration for the creators of the television show LOST. They are choosing to end the series this year so that they can tell the story they wanted to tell, make it coherent, maintain the continuity and believability, and go out on top of their game with a bang rather than letting the story lose its focus--and watch the fan base fade away. Joss got to do this with Chosen...but then he went on with the comics, and on, and on, and on until he had lost touch with his characters, who they were, and what they would realistically do and grow up to be...and lost touch with his fans.
Furthermore, if Joss were to return to Bagel as "true love incarnate", to me he has just cheapened the relationships of both Angel and Cordelia and of Buffy and Spike. He spent years having Cordelia and Spike grow up, mature, and learn to relate to and love Buffy and Angel. Cordelia and Spike helped Buffy and Angel mature, too, and find their purpose. When Angel and Buffy, each in their own shows, went through tough times, it was Cordelia and Spike who stood loyally beside them and helped them through it all, who made them stronger people. To say that Buffy and Angel have to come together again because they are destiny's true loves is to say that nothing about Cordy and Spike mattered. It would destroy the integrity of both the comics and the canon of the television shows.
But then Joss loves to destroy positive, mature relationships (usually through death). Remember how Wash died so unexpectedly in the Serenity movie ending the one strong marriage relationship I think Joss ever wrote? In Dollhouse Paul lost Melly when she killed herself. Paul had his memory of loving Echo wiped out, and then when they finally got back into a relationship, Paul was killed. Wes lost Fred, Angel lost Cordy, Xander lost Anya, Giles lost Jenny, and in Chosen Buffy lost Spike.
Joss enjoys shocking people, manipulating fans' emotions, knocking us off-balance, taking away our good happy feelings and showing life as a sad, lonely existence. Even if he rekindled the Buffy-Angel relationship, would he really forfeit his negative, depressed outlook and give them the "happily ever after" ending that he denied all his other characters? It wouldn't fit his pattern.
I feel Joss has betrayed me in so many ways. That is why I'm not even reading the comics. I'll stick with Spuffy fanfiction; based on the canon of the television series, Buffy and Spike being together makes more sense to me. The fanfic writers, writing as a hobby, do a better job maintaining characterization and the flavor of the show than the "professional" comic book writers. Reading Spuffy fanfic lets me enjoy my favorite character, and allows me to experience the positive, feel-good, happy endings that Joss never gave us. After all, aren't love, friendship, optimism, humor, and faith that the world is really a good place what life is all about? Spuffy fanfic gives us that and more!
I fear Joss sold out the integrity of the story and characters long ago and is now serving another mistress named $$$, the almighty dollar. The comics are not about advancing the characterizations or bringing resolution to the plot threads of the TV series. It is about dragging it out as long as possible to make more money. I have a lot of admiration for the creators of the television show LOST. They are choosing to end the series this year so that they can tell the story they wanted to tell, make it coherent, maintain the continuity and believability, and go out on top of their game with a bang rather than letting the story lose its focus--and watch the fan base fade away. Joss got to do this with Chosen...but then he went on with the comics, and on, and on, and on until he had lost touch with his characters, who they were, and what they would realistically do and grow up to be...and lost touch with his fans.
Furthermore, if Joss were to return to Bagel as "true love incarnate", to me he has just cheapened the relationships of both Angel and Cordelia and of Buffy and Spike. He spent years having Cordelia and Spike grow up, mature, and learn to relate to and love Buffy and Angel. Cordelia and Spike helped Buffy and Angel mature, too, and find their purpose. When Angel and Buffy, each in their own shows, went through tough times, it was Cordelia and Spike who stood loyally beside them and helped them through it all, who made them stronger people. To say that Buffy and Angel have to come together again because they are destiny's true loves is to say that nothing about Cordy and Spike mattered. It would destroy the integrity of both the comics and the canon of the television shows.
But then Joss loves to destroy positive, mature relationships (usually through death). Remember how Wash died so unexpectedly in the Serenity movie ending the one strong marriage relationship I think Joss ever wrote? In Dollhouse Paul lost Melly when she killed herself. Paul had his memory of loving Echo wiped out, and then when they finally got back into a relationship, Paul was killed. Wes lost Fred, Angel lost Cordy, Xander lost Anya, Giles lost Jenny, and in Chosen Buffy lost Spike.
Joss enjoys shocking people, manipulating fans' emotions, knocking us off-balance, taking away our good happy feelings and showing life as a sad, lonely existence. Even if he rekindled the Buffy-Angel relationship, would he really forfeit his negative, depressed outlook and give them the "happily ever after" ending that he denied all his other characters? It wouldn't fit his pattern.
I feel Joss has betrayed me in so many ways. That is why I'm not even reading the comics. I'll stick with Spuffy fanfiction; based on the canon of the television series, Buffy and Spike being together makes more sense to me. The fanfic writers, writing as a hobby, do a better job maintaining characterization and the flavor of the show than the "professional" comic book writers. Reading Spuffy fanfic lets me enjoy my favorite character, and allows me to experience the positive, feel-good, happy endings that Joss never gave us. After all, aren't love, friendship, optimism, humor, and faith that the world is really a good place what life is all about? Spuffy fanfic gives us that and more!
'I fear Joss sold out the integrity of the story and characters long ago and is now serving another mistress named $$$, the almighty dollar. The comics are not about advancing the characterizations or bringing resolution to the plot threads of the TV series. It is about dragging it out as long as possible to make more money.'
Couldn't have put it better myself. Am I right in recalling JW had originally wanted to end with Season 5?
Couldn't have put it better myself. Am I right in recalling JW had originally wanted to end with Season 5?
Very eloquent Sensei.I agree that the almighty dollar is Joss mistress nowadays. BtVS ended at Chosen. And if he wanted to continue it, he really should have come up with something better than this crack! fic he's telling. And let's face it, if SMG had signed on for another year this would not be S8.This is fanboy, crack fantasy.. I think even Stephanie Meyer's Twilight is better than this trope of destiny's true love crap. What was the point of all the growing these two did? What was the point of Cordy and Spike? What was the point of anything really? That's why I really hope that there's more to it. We shall see I guess. I admire the Lost producers too. Let's hope 5 yrs, down the line they don't start writing a crappy comic.;P
What is Joss' problem with happy couples? He destroys any and all relationships. I know happy, shiny couples are boring, but c'mon, you have to give the audience some happiness. Maybe at the end of your series. Leave people with some hope. I mean he's happily married, so why can't any of his characters be happy too? After all the angst and stuff, give us some happy is all I'm saying. :) The world is pretty harsh, but there are couples making it work. Don't know why he can't have any of his couples left with something positive.
So I'll keep reading my Spuffy fanfic. Where people grow up and actually get happy endings. (And at the very least we get good stories) :)
What is Joss' problem with happy couples? He destroys any and all relationships. I know happy, shiny couples are boring, but c'mon, you have to give the audience some happiness. Maybe at the end of your series. Leave people with some hope. I mean he's happily married, so why can't any of his characters be happy too? After all the angst and stuff, give us some happy is all I'm saying. :) The world is pretty harsh, but there are couples making it work. Don't know why he can't have any of his couples left with something positive.
So I'll keep reading my Spuffy fanfic. Where people grow up and actually get happy endings. (And at the very least we get good stories) :)
Mar 05 2010 08:32 pm #32ladycat713
Guest
Definitely stick with the Spuffy fanfic because even with the darkest stories you can have there be light at the end of the tunnel. And in fanfic (unlike Season 8) it's not an oncoming train.
And I got the idea that Satsu might be underaged because of a fanfic called Performance Review by powerofthebook on lj. It's at 4 chapters and it has it where Kennedy is sent to give a performance review to Satsu since so many are questioning why she got the promotion. Willow tells Kennedy to give her a good review no matter what so Buffy doesn't look bad. It soon becomes clear that Satsu shouldn't be allowed to patrol (she's too interested in showing off her flips instead of gettign the job done) much less lead anybody (she doesn't even live on base for one thing.)
It makes sense for her to be underage though, since we see that she's in a schoolgirl uniform (probably to add to the fanboy pandering) when she changed and that would make her anywhere from 12 to 18 at the time depending on her school system,There's no real telling her age from looking at her since not only have the comics done badly depicting ages but you can't always tell how old people are by looking at them. When I was a 12 year old , the other students thought I was an undercover cop so I obviously didn't look 12.
And I got the idea that Satsu might be underaged because of a fanfic called Performance Review by powerofthebook on lj. It's at 4 chapters and it has it where Kennedy is sent to give a performance review to Satsu since so many are questioning why she got the promotion. Willow tells Kennedy to give her a good review no matter what so Buffy doesn't look bad. It soon becomes clear that Satsu shouldn't be allowed to patrol (she's too interested in showing off her flips instead of gettign the job done) much less lead anybody (she doesn't even live on base for one thing.)
It makes sense for her to be underage though, since we see that she's in a schoolgirl uniform (probably to add to the fanboy pandering) when she changed and that would make her anywhere from 12 to 18 at the time depending on her school system,There's no real telling her age from looking at her since not only have the comics done badly depicting ages but you can't always tell how old people are by looking at them. When I was a 12 year old , the other students thought I was an undercover cop so I obviously didn't look 12.
Want to extend my thanks for all the replies - I really am very interested in what members think about what is taking place now. All this has really effecting my long standing admiration for the Buffyverse and Angelverse - Surely the writers and Joss Whedon must know that readers won't just accept any "the devil made me do it or I was manipulated" to explained all the death and destruction. If they go with that line it and have yet another arc where moral and ethical theme are just set aside to service their story - I will just have to leave the general Buffy and Angel fandom. There is just so much that this reader can accept - and this long overdue time for Joss Whedon to make a definitive statement about his moral concepts with regard to woman, death, wars, and the consequences of your life choices - it's time to put the question to Joss "are you ready to be strong/"
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 05 2010 11:28 pm #34Always_jbj
Moderator
Not to defend Joss and the insanity that he calls S8 in any way, but the legal age in the UK is 16. ( I believe the comics are set in the UK, yes?)
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Hell, the comics are all over the place. They start out in Scotland, take a trip to Japan and end up in Tibet. And I'm not sure if it's the same in the UK (or Japan in that matter, since she sleeps with Satsu there too), but usually if the older person is in a position of power (say, like a general in the army *cough, cough Buffy*), the legal age jumps up to 18. Again, not sure if it's like that in the UK or not, but either way- using someone for sex is bad, using a teenager for sex (because I think we can all agree Satsu is in her teens) so beyond wrong it's not funny.
~ Niori ~
Mar 06 2010 12:18 am #36Always_jbj
Moderator
LOL As I said, I wasn't defending the comics in any way... I can't say if I agree that Satsu is in her teens...I wouldn't have a clue, I don't read the comics (thank god! lol). I just wasn't sure that all our US members realised that the legal age in the UK was 16.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Thanks for posting the age consent info - I did not know 16 was the age in the UK - My God 16 sounds so young now to me, of course it makes no difference what parents or older adults think, people who have lived through those years, teens see their lives so differently - especially in todays culture. I have a sister that became pregnant at 16 from her first boyfriend - My mom was so angry and disappointed in her. My mother knew hard extremely difficult it was going to be for this young woman to have this child and have to become a mother and single provider for this child. I still can't understand why free contraceptives are not available to teenage girls.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 06 2010 01:03 am #38Always_jbj
Moderator
I did not know 16 was the age in the UK
It is here in Australia too, which, I guess, is why early season Spuffy doesn't squick me like it does some people. LOL
Although the age of consent is still 16, but they have brought in new laws to do with the age difference between the 16 year old and their partner... I don't remember what they are, something like no more than 4 or 5 years difference or something, so Spike would still be in trouble here. LOL When I was younger, the age of consent for girls was 16 but for boys it was 18 (apparently because they mature more slowly), but now it is just 16 across the board.
It is here in Australia too, which, I guess, is why early season Spuffy doesn't squick me like it does some people. LOL
Although the age of consent is still 16, but they have brought in new laws to do with the age difference between the 16 year old and their partner... I don't remember what they are, something like no more than 4 or 5 years difference or something, so Spike would still be in trouble here. LOL When I was younger, the age of consent for girls was 16 but for boys it was 18 (apparently because they mature more slowly), but now it is just 16 across the board.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Bringing this over from the comic book thread because I think it would be of interest to the writers and members that are not reading about the season eight comics. What are your thoughts about having Buffy and Angel/Angelus/Twilight get the "destiny or chosen" treatment. Since the series appeared to embrace the "free will" and "individual choice" If Joss Whedon makes the choice to move the Buffyverse in the direction of characters as avatars - how does it change his prime model heroine. Since Joss Whedon has always been so specific with his choice of names and titles, twilight being so clearly a combining and transition state, and a GREAT BIG IF, he goes with a new form of Slayer with Buffy would you feel the need to write Buffy different?
25. bamph: Have Buffy's and Angel's feelings for each other all been manipulation going back to the start of the show?That's the impression be given to some I've talked to after reading the issue. That this issue is hinting that the Buffy/Angel romance isn't really real and never has been. That they were manipulated into falling in love all those years ago by some unknown force when Angel first saw her in the Becoming flashback and when finally meeting in season 1 and what is happening now with this secret history between slayers and vampires and the unholy power the two have gotten is the end game to all this manipulation. Is that the view we're supposed to come away with after the new issue or is that the wrong thinking about the Buffy/Angel romance?
Scott Allie: I think this sort of thing is personal for the reader. What do you believe about love, about fate, about destiny? You will never get a scene where one of the characters says to the other, I guess we never really had feelings for each other, it was all just some unholy power. In my opinion, there can be fate, and you can be chosen, and still have to earn it. But ultimately my answer to your question is no, no one is telling you that. That is not the impression you're meant to walk away with.
Mostly I think that Scott Allie is doing nothing more than giving out a crock of BS in-order to set-up and justify the coming issues - I mean destiny and fate and love running your life or wanting things to come together - WTF happened to the Buffyverse and Free Will and Freedom of Choice and making your own path and journey?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 06 2010 02:11 am #40Varin
Guest
"Although the age of consent is still 16, but they have brought in new laws to do with the age difference between the 16 year old and their partner... I don't remember what they are, something like no more than 4 or 5 years difference or something, so Spike would still be in trouble here."
Why would Spike be in trouble? Angel was the one in his mid twenties (non-vamped) lusting after the 15/16 year old. Buffy was about 20/21 when she got together with Spike. (Her 4th lover, by then) Even if you thought of him as 30, the maturity levels are much closer together.
I tried to read the comics and stopped after 4 when I realized they weren't getting any better. Dawn was stuck as a giant? Kennedy and Willow were still together in a strong relationship? (WTF?) Buffy needed three expendable decoys to keep her alive because she's become a huge prestige kill? She's ALWAYS been a prestige kill. Since when is she willing to allow someone to die in her her stead protecting her? Then Buffy was flirting with Xander. (My personal breaking point, although I would have been gone by Satsu anyway. I could have bought Buffy/Faith, not some random slayer.) Faith was the one I'd believe as bi, not Buffy.
It has been obvious to me that Dark Horse's plots are to sell comics. Nothing causes teenaged boys to cough up their dough more than some hot girl-on-girl action.
Why would Spike be in trouble? Angel was the one in his mid twenties (non-vamped) lusting after the 15/16 year old. Buffy was about 20/21 when she got together with Spike. (Her 4th lover, by then) Even if you thought of him as 30, the maturity levels are much closer together.
I tried to read the comics and stopped after 4 when I realized they weren't getting any better. Dawn was stuck as a giant? Kennedy and Willow were still together in a strong relationship? (WTF?) Buffy needed three expendable decoys to keep her alive because she's become a huge prestige kill? She's ALWAYS been a prestige kill. Since when is she willing to allow someone to die in her her stead protecting her? Then Buffy was flirting with Xander. (My personal breaking point, although I would have been gone by Satsu anyway. I could have bought Buffy/Faith, not some random slayer.) Faith was the one I'd believe as bi, not Buffy.
It has been obvious to me that Dark Horse's plots are to sell comics. Nothing causes teenaged boys to cough up their dough more than some hot girl-on-girl action.
Mar 06 2010 02:13 am #41ladycat713
Guest
Even if Buffy sleeping with Satsu was legal , was it ethical? Not in my book.
She knows Satsu is in love with her , Satsu has probably been taught to look up to Buffy as a role model and as a person to aspire to be, Buffy is in charge of Satsu (in a way she's in loco parentis like a teacher at the very least ) and she gives her a promotion shortly after being done with her sexually.
This promotion will always be in question no matter how well qualified Satsu may be. Also if anyone else is in charge of Satsu getting further promotions they may be a lot more hesitant to promote her for fear of being accused of exchanging promotions for sexual favors.
When Buffy first slept with Satsu there were a whole bunch of people talking about Buffy experimenting sexually and how sexy it all was. I never subscribed to that because all I could see was a young girl in love with a person who was stringing her along in order to get what they wanted out of her. If Buffy had been a man you wouldn't have heard one person calling her use of Satsu sexy. It would have been sleazy right out of the box.
Also given the whole fanboy pandering that they've done with things like a bunch of girls playing strip poker , a person might be tempted to think that at least one reason for the massive case of Slayer isolation was to get thier titular character in bed with another female and still call her straight (JW seems to have trouble with calling people bisexual , as evidenced by Willow's gay now) because of lack of male potential bed partners .
She knows Satsu is in love with her , Satsu has probably been taught to look up to Buffy as a role model and as a person to aspire to be, Buffy is in charge of Satsu (in a way she's in loco parentis like a teacher at the very least ) and she gives her a promotion shortly after being done with her sexually.
This promotion will always be in question no matter how well qualified Satsu may be. Also if anyone else is in charge of Satsu getting further promotions they may be a lot more hesitant to promote her for fear of being accused of exchanging promotions for sexual favors.
When Buffy first slept with Satsu there were a whole bunch of people talking about Buffy experimenting sexually and how sexy it all was. I never subscribed to that because all I could see was a young girl in love with a person who was stringing her along in order to get what they wanted out of her. If Buffy had been a man you wouldn't have heard one person calling her use of Satsu sexy. It would have been sleazy right out of the box.
Also given the whole fanboy pandering that they've done with things like a bunch of girls playing strip poker , a person might be tempted to think that at least one reason for the massive case of Slayer isolation was to get thier titular character in bed with another female and still call her straight (JW seems to have trouble with calling people bisexual , as evidenced by Willow's gay now) because of lack of male potential bed partners .
Just a reminder that James Marsters is on Caprica tonight on the SyFy Channel
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 06 2010 03:06 am #43Always_jbj
Moderator
Why would Spike be in trouble?
That was in reference to me saying that early season Spuffy probably doesn't squick me because the age of consent here in Australia is 16.
That was in reference to me saying that early season Spuffy probably doesn't squick me because the age of consent here in Australia is 16.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Mar 06 2010 04:05 am #44slaymesoftly
Moderator
In our state, where the age of consent is 18, juveniles with more than a 3 year age difference can be in trouble - It isn't caused statuatory rape if it's an 18 yr old and a 14 yr old, but it is a crime. A man in his late twenties and a 16 or 17 year old girl - definitely trouble. ("sixteen'll get you twenty...")
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Joyce shoulda called the cops on Angel's ass. lol He was souled and good so he wouldn't have bit them. ;) That wouldhave been funny..seeing Angel behind bars for sex with a minor. lol
Mar 06 2010 02:33 pm #46Scarlet
Guest
Just skimmed this quickly but--
Comparing an adult human in the Buffyverse isn't the same as comparing the legal technicalities of a vampire. I mean, because it's a vampire--our human laws do not apply to them, and it's a tad silly to put them under those restrictions.
Comparing an adult human in the Buffyverse isn't the same as comparing the legal technicalities of a vampire. I mean, because it's a vampire--our human laws do not apply to them, and it's a tad silly to put them under those restrictions.
Here is another Spuffy question that is connected to the age issue with Bangel -
It is not the only their biological ages - in our current cultural perspective for a great many viewers it is extremely significant, but it is primarily her inexperience with life that is what makes it wrong. With another famous and most beloved literary couple, Emma and George Kneightly. He held Emma in his arms when she was an infant and yet Austen has him fall in love with her and eventually marry her - but the big difference is that their cultural and life experiences do not create this vast pit of hell difference that is fundamental in the Buffy-Angel/Angelus love story. It's that difference of life experience that makes, IMO, one love relationship not right and the other acceptable.
Getting back to Spuffy and this Age and Life Experience question - While I admit to enjoying some of the Spuffy stories that connect them while she is still in high school - I ALWAYS feel that "this is not something that is not right." I have come to prefer reading stories that take place later in her life. Which is really bad for me since I do very much like the premise of Season Two and a great big and grand battle of Buffy, Spike and her Scoobs against Angelus.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 07 2010 02:25 am #50Caro Mio
Guest
If vampires are going to live as part of our society, then yeah, they are subject to the laws around them. As sentient beings, they have a choice to follow them or not.
One thing about Joss and Angel - Angel was David Greenwalt's creation. It's part of why Joss doesn't get Angel in the same way.......it wasn't his character in the first place. Angel was always meant to be the good vamp, the exception, but Joss likes his monsters to be monsters. David Greenwalt always had much better ideas, IMO (otherwise known as a friggin' clue) and I was sad when he left. (I know recently he had to leave a job for health problems, so I hope he's on the mend by now.) Without DG, there would never have been "Angel" the show, let alone the character.
Joss is a control freak and I think it always bothers him when fan opinion gets beyond what he can control or manipulate, like with Spike's instantly popularity. When the network says "You're keeping this character because they love him", it rankles. Creatively, it can suck to have your vision imposed upon, but on the other hand, all kinds of possibilities were opened up, so..........roll with it, and for the love of Pete, don't take it personally.
I don't consider the comics canon and never will, so it's not going to affect my Spuffy love at all. But it might be too soon to say what they're doing with the Twilight/Angel thing, too. There's probably some WTF fake-out coming because the character hasn't even sounded like Angel in the first place from anything I've seen, at least not the Angel from our dimension.
As for Bangel, Angel didn't pursue her. They had mutual attraction, but Buffy rules that relationship in Season 2 because Angel's deferring to the human who's supposed to know how the human thing is done these days. It really struck me the last time I watched Season 2 all the way through, after a long absence, how Buffy basically had him by the short hairs until he became Angelus. Now, after everything that happens, Angel isn't so willing to be submissive in season 3, and of course, he was right to leave......they didn't fit. Passion and attraction don't equal a successful relationship. It takes a whole lot more than that. Honestly, in season 2, I wanted the girl to make up her mind!! She does SUCH a hot and cold act with Angel, it's a wonder the guy still wanted to stay in town. And hey, probably really typical of a lot of 16-year-old girls, but still.........make Angel the same and just take away the vampire stuff and Buffy still would have been all over him like a dog with a bone. She had a major crush and that doesn't go away in a teen girl until she 1) finds someone new to crush on, or 2) gets turned off by the crushee.
---But yeah, I was watching season 2 for research for a fic and taking notes and that's what goes on before they finally admit they love each other shortly before her 17th birthday.
You're right Nmcil......in the 17-and-1800s, 27-year-old Liam and 16-year-old Buffy starting a courtship would've been nothing to sneeze at. With the advent of child labor laws and mandatory schooling of children, society changed to allowing children to stay children longer. Teens in the 1990's weren't at the same maturity level as those 100 years previous. Buffy is an unusual case because she's been dealing with very adult things like death, dismemberment, and saving the world since she was called, but her social interaction development wasn't accelerated along with that. In fact, the pressure for secrecy about being a Slayer actually hinders her because her natural inclination becomes hiding things instead of talking about them with people who know more/are more experienced than her. She doesn't feel she can get advice from her mother about Angel....she goes to Willow, instead, who hasn't dated at ALL. Add all that to Buffy's natural tendency toward DRAMA, and the girl was pretty much doomed for relationships before she even started.
One thing about Joss and Angel - Angel was David Greenwalt's creation. It's part of why Joss doesn't get Angel in the same way.......it wasn't his character in the first place. Angel was always meant to be the good vamp, the exception, but Joss likes his monsters to be monsters. David Greenwalt always had much better ideas, IMO (otherwise known as a friggin' clue) and I was sad when he left. (I know recently he had to leave a job for health problems, so I hope he's on the mend by now.) Without DG, there would never have been "Angel" the show, let alone the character.
Joss is a control freak and I think it always bothers him when fan opinion gets beyond what he can control or manipulate, like with Spike's instantly popularity. When the network says "You're keeping this character because they love him", it rankles. Creatively, it can suck to have your vision imposed upon, but on the other hand, all kinds of possibilities were opened up, so..........roll with it, and for the love of Pete, don't take it personally.
I don't consider the comics canon and never will, so it's not going to affect my Spuffy love at all. But it might be too soon to say what they're doing with the Twilight/Angel thing, too. There's probably some WTF fake-out coming because the character hasn't even sounded like Angel in the first place from anything I've seen, at least not the Angel from our dimension.
As for Bangel, Angel didn't pursue her. They had mutual attraction, but Buffy rules that relationship in Season 2 because Angel's deferring to the human who's supposed to know how the human thing is done these days. It really struck me the last time I watched Season 2 all the way through, after a long absence, how Buffy basically had him by the short hairs until he became Angelus. Now, after everything that happens, Angel isn't so willing to be submissive in season 3, and of course, he was right to leave......they didn't fit. Passion and attraction don't equal a successful relationship. It takes a whole lot more than that. Honestly, in season 2, I wanted the girl to make up her mind!! She does SUCH a hot and cold act with Angel, it's a wonder the guy still wanted to stay in town. And hey, probably really typical of a lot of 16-year-old girls, but still.........make Angel the same and just take away the vampire stuff and Buffy still would have been all over him like a dog with a bone. She had a major crush and that doesn't go away in a teen girl until she 1) finds someone new to crush on, or 2) gets turned off by the crushee.
---But yeah, I was watching season 2 for research for a fic and taking notes and that's what goes on before they finally admit they love each other shortly before her 17th birthday.
You're right Nmcil......in the 17-and-1800s, 27-year-old Liam and 16-year-old Buffy starting a courtship would've been nothing to sneeze at. With the advent of child labor laws and mandatory schooling of children, society changed to allowing children to stay children longer. Teens in the 1990's weren't at the same maturity level as those 100 years previous. Buffy is an unusual case because she's been dealing with very adult things like death, dismemberment, and saving the world since she was called, but her social interaction development wasn't accelerated along with that. In fact, the pressure for secrecy about being a Slayer actually hinders her because her natural inclination becomes hiding things instead of talking about them with people who know more/are more experienced than her. She doesn't feel she can get advice from her mother about Angel....she goes to Willow, instead, who hasn't dated at ALL. Add all that to Buffy's natural tendency toward DRAMA, and the girl was pretty much doomed for relationships before she even started.
It always strikes me as such a strange treatment - there is such a huge difference between the girly teenage Buffy and Willow in the school and age appropriate social settings contrasted with the very adult setting and treatment that is usually depicted in their romantic and angst scenes. Take for instance the treatment given to her chase after Owen - Buffy and Willow are shown in an often used film "typical girl teen boy crush" while when she has had encounters with Angel/Angelus in love scenes or angst, she is shown as a more mature girl. The viewers, are often left with confused signals about how to interpret her relationship with Angel/Angelus.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Greenwalt created both Angel and Spike.
And you're absolutely right, when you say Joss is a control freak. I'm sure he resented the hell out of anyone who had power over his shows.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with the idea that Buffy had Angel by the shorthairs in the beginning of season 2. She was constantly chasing after him, and she never once admitted she was in love with him until after he said it first. I don't think she - or any 16 year old - really knows what love is. And while Spike enlightened her somewhat in LW, he schooled her throughout the later seasons showing her time and again that love wasn't brains, and that love isn't logical. The whole Romeo & Juliet aspect of the Bangel relationship just makes me want to heave, because that's not real. It's some freaky teenaged melodrama that half the world forgets it ends tragically. Why is it we buy into the hype that Romeo and Juliet is the be-all and end-all of romantic love? I for one, don't buy it. They're foolish children who leap and then look. Andthen figure that dying is easier than living without the other half. Hate to break it to you, but dying is the easy way out, because living is what takes strength.
Gimme a real, deep and abiding love, wherein the two players love each other despite their own and their partner's shortcomings and their relationship withstands any tempest.
And Twilight as a villian's pseudonym? Why doesn't he just call him Voldemort and admit he's cashing in on someone else's popularity and hoping to rope in the latecoming fans? Oh wait, I know why he can't use Voldemort. Because JK Rowling is smart enough to sue his ass for using her fame to amp up his own.
And you're absolutely right, when you say Joss is a control freak. I'm sure he resented the hell out of anyone who had power over his shows.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with the idea that Buffy had Angel by the shorthairs in the beginning of season 2. She was constantly chasing after him, and she never once admitted she was in love with him until after he said it first. I don't think she - or any 16 year old - really knows what love is. And while Spike enlightened her somewhat in LW, he schooled her throughout the later seasons showing her time and again that love wasn't brains, and that love isn't logical. The whole Romeo & Juliet aspect of the Bangel relationship just makes me want to heave, because that's not real. It's some freaky teenaged melodrama that half the world forgets it ends tragically. Why is it we buy into the hype that Romeo and Juliet is the be-all and end-all of romantic love? I for one, don't buy it. They're foolish children who leap and then look. Andthen figure that dying is easier than living without the other half. Hate to break it to you, but dying is the easy way out, because living is what takes strength.
Gimme a real, deep and abiding love, wherein the two players love each other despite their own and their partner's shortcomings and their relationship withstands any tempest.
And Twilight as a villian's pseudonym? Why doesn't he just call him Voldemort and admit he's cashing in on someone else's popularity and hoping to rope in the latecoming fans? Oh wait, I know why he can't use Voldemort. Because JK Rowling is smart enough to sue his ass for using her fame to amp up his own.
Thank you, Niamh! You have made my whole week with this post. Totally agree on the whole Romeo&Juliet thing. That's not romantic. It's frikkin tragic.I mean they kill themselves for God's sake. Great message to send impressionable ,angst ridden teens.1st love is the be all and end all and if you can't be together 4EVA kiddies, just kill yourselves. UGH, I definitely agree Joss is a control freak, with a huge ego. Look what happened to Charism when she got pregnant , trashed the character of Cordy for an entire season and then got killed off anyway.And I don't think he liked how popular Spike became. Not at all. Still, he did write a great story for him, so there's that.
LOL at Twilight and Valdemort, and JK Rowling suing him. Cause really... glowy, destined love? Edward/Bella much? As long as Spike isn't turned into Glow Worm. i'll be happy.
LOL at Twilight and Valdemort, and JK Rowling suing him. Cause really... glowy, destined love? Edward/Bella much? As long as Spike isn't turned into Glow Worm. i'll be happy.
"Thank you, Niamh! You have made my whole week with this post. Totally agree on the whole Romeo&Juliet thing. That's not romantic. It's frikkin tragic.I mean they kill themselves for God's sake. Great message to send impressionable ,angst ridden teens.1st love is the be all and end all and if you can't be together 4EVA kiddies, just kill yourselves. UGH, I definitely agree Joss is a control freak, with a huge ego. Look what happened to Charism when she got pregnant , trashed the character of Cordy for an entire season and then got killed off anyway.And I don't think he liked how popular Spike became. Not at all. Still, he did write a great story for him, so there's that.
LOL at Twilight and Valdemort, and JK Rowling suing him. Cause really... glowy, destined love? Edward/Bella much? As long as Spike isn't turned into Glow Worm. i'll be happy."
This is why I so dislike and even resent this nonsensical idea that Buffy-Angel-Forever - why do so many people, young and adult alike simply ignore all the terrible things that resulted for her love - It was such an unhealthy relationship for her. What parent, sister or brother, even a best friend would ever want this relationship for anyone they know and love - It is so hypocritical of any of the writers and Joss Whedon to continue to say that this was The Great Love for the characters and even for the series.
I am really pissed that the DarkHorse people and Joss Whedon dragged this Season Eight out for all these years - to end up with what is sure to be another round of "Clean Up and White Wash" the character that can do no wrong, even when it means killing hundreds of innocent victims - He better have a darn good ending and moral justification for using Angel/Angelus once again . A Lot of people are really upset on the boards that I have visited with what is being presented in this last phase and a lot of the entire series. Interesting panel with Andrew and his super hero gear - he wears one of the symbols from The Civil War comic book series - the skull that is worn by one of the characters named Frank Castle, hope I have the right name - and Captain America describes the character as insane - it's probably just the comic book writers have a fun time.
Of course, just to add salt to the wounded Spuffy Hearts - Bangel is still in the Top TV Couples Poll -
LOL at Twilight and Valdemort, and JK Rowling suing him. Cause really... glowy, destined love? Edward/Bella much? As long as Spike isn't turned into Glow Worm. i'll be happy."
This is why I so dislike and even resent this nonsensical idea that Buffy-Angel-Forever - why do so many people, young and adult alike simply ignore all the terrible things that resulted for her love - It was such an unhealthy relationship for her. What parent, sister or brother, even a best friend would ever want this relationship for anyone they know and love - It is so hypocritical of any of the writers and Joss Whedon to continue to say that this was The Great Love for the characters and even for the series.
I am really pissed that the DarkHorse people and Joss Whedon dragged this Season Eight out for all these years - to end up with what is sure to be another round of "Clean Up and White Wash" the character that can do no wrong, even when it means killing hundreds of innocent victims - He better have a darn good ending and moral justification for using Angel/Angelus once again . A Lot of people are really upset on the boards that I have visited with what is being presented in this last phase and a lot of the entire series. Interesting panel with Andrew and his super hero gear - he wears one of the symbols from The Civil War comic book series - the skull that is worn by one of the characters named Frank Castle, hope I have the right name - and Captain America describes the character as insane - it's probably just the comic book writers have a fun time.
Of course, just to add salt to the wounded Spuffy Hearts - Bangel is still in the Top TV Couples Poll -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 07 2010 01:11 pm #55CM
Guest
Oh, I definitely agree no teen knows what love is even when they're "feeling" it. And yeah, the melodrama is way annoying.....it's why Bella from Twilight is so ridiculous, too.
But I really did notice a lot of Angel following Buffy's lead nearly all the time in seasons 1/2. It's a contrast to him post-100-years-in-Hell, and an even bigger contrast to the self-confidence he had later in his own series. I don't even remember them arguing (more than just disagreeing) until season 3. That's part of what I mean about Buffy being in control of the relationship.....she was human and the Slayer, so he pretty much deferred to her morality and decisions. If Spike had been the one showing up souled and helpful, he still would've gotten in yelling matches with her and told her when she was being an idiot.
There's a reason I think TV/movie writers need to come out of HollywoodWorld on occasion and rediscover how real people live and do things.....a lot of them really seem to have no touch with reality or an ability to look outside themselves and their work to see how an idea is going to be perceived. And man, considering how Joss has to destroy every couple he creates before they get a happy ending, I have to wonder why he got married in the first place......does he do it for drama, or does he really think all relationships end in flames? If it's the latter, man....his poor wife.
I was really surprised Spuffy got eliminated in the Watch With Kristin blog poll. We usually kick butt. I didn't look at the previous round's numbers, so I don't know whether Bangel had an easier opponent or not. Cuz they weren't pitted against each other...
But I really did notice a lot of Angel following Buffy's lead nearly all the time in seasons 1/2. It's a contrast to him post-100-years-in-Hell, and an even bigger contrast to the self-confidence he had later in his own series. I don't even remember them arguing (more than just disagreeing) until season 3. That's part of what I mean about Buffy being in control of the relationship.....she was human and the Slayer, so he pretty much deferred to her morality and decisions. If Spike had been the one showing up souled and helpful, he still would've gotten in yelling matches with her and told her when she was being an idiot.
There's a reason I think TV/movie writers need to come out of HollywoodWorld on occasion and rediscover how real people live and do things.....a lot of them really seem to have no touch with reality or an ability to look outside themselves and their work to see how an idea is going to be perceived. And man, considering how Joss has to destroy every couple he creates before they get a happy ending, I have to wonder why he got married in the first place......does he do it for drama, or does he really think all relationships end in flames? If it's the latter, man....his poor wife.
I was really surprised Spuffy got eliminated in the Watch With Kristin blog poll. We usually kick butt. I didn't look at the previous round's numbers, so I don't know whether Bangel had an easier opponent or not. Cuz they weren't pitted against each other...
Mar 07 2010 03:40 pm #56slaymesoftly
Moderator
*standing O for Niamh*
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Mar 07 2010 03:58 pm #57Maxi
Guest
For those interested, you can download buffy 33 here:
http://www.4shared.com/file/235707471/9939a65e/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_-_Sea.html?s=1
http://www.4shared.com/file/235707471/9939a65e/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_-_Sea.html?s=1
Mar 07 2010 04:20 pm #58The Enemy of Reality
I've recently started rewatching S2 because I wanted to pay more attention to the whole Bangel romance and look at it critically and something just came as really strange to me. Before the episode 'Lie to me', Buffy expressed that she didn't even know if they were dating, they never even got to have a real date since something always seemed to happen, like in 'Halloween' when she spotted Cordy flirting with Angel and left. So they barely know each other and are practically not even in a relationship, yet in the following episode, 'Lie to me', Angel asks Buffy is she loves him and she says: I love you. I don't know if I trust you.
Okay, is it me or is it really strange that she loves someone she sees only fleetingly and has never had a real conversation with? It's like saying you really love a guy you're crushing on, but know nothing about him. WTF? There's a difference between a crush or obsession and love.
And you know what? I hope poor Spike won't be dragged into the BtVS comics, I like his character too much to be forced to watch the writers destroy everything he's done to become a man he is. I definitely don't consider comics as canon, because for me, it wasn't just the writing, but also the awesome performances of the actors that made the show so great and comics just don' fill that void. I don't take them seriosuly at all, so no matter what happens in those questionable comics, I'll always ship Spuffy. ;)
Okay, is it me or is it really strange that she loves someone she sees only fleetingly and has never had a real conversation with? It's like saying you really love a guy you're crushing on, but know nothing about him. WTF? There's a difference between a crush or obsession and love.
And you know what? I hope poor Spike won't be dragged into the BtVS comics, I like his character too much to be forced to watch the writers destroy everything he's done to become a man he is. I definitely don't consider comics as canon, because for me, it wasn't just the writing, but also the awesome performances of the actors that made the show so great and comics just don' fill that void. I don't take them seriosuly at all, so no matter what happens in those questionable comics, I'll always ship Spuffy. ;)
CM...to answer your question about the Eonline poll. In the first round Spike/Buffy were up against the OC couple Ryan/Marissa. Spuffy was ahead for a long time, and then in a couple of hrs. their 15% lead dropped and the other couple rose 15%. People think Bangels were voting against Spuffy cause there was multiple voting allowed and no security code to prove your'e "human" like they have now. Lot's of other people complained about their couples too, not jus Spuffys. There seemed to be a lot of spamming and robo voting or whatever it's called.. Bangel were up against Donna/Josh from the West Wing. Bangel had a 30% lead the whole time and it never fell below that. I was sick for a couple of days and was voting ALOT for spuffy , and their % never rose at all and sometimes dropped 2-5% points. So people think Bangels were voting against Spuffy. :sigh:
And the next round had Bangel up against the couple from Fringe.(don't know their name) and they led about 30% the whole time. In this latest round they put in that security word you have to type to prove you're "human".
ITA with you Enemy of Reality..it was like all of a sudden Buffy and Angel were in LOVE. It's like you said they'd never really dated or anything. Something always got in the way and then BAM it's TWU LUV 4EVA! I never got that and it still annoys me that they are held up by everyone as the true love perfect couple. To me it seemed like a HS 16 yr old girl crush and that's it. But now they're "DESTINED", and will have many days of Glow!SEX to prove they are so much better than Spuffy. Sorry Joss, B/A having sex in a COMIC, (especially when she looks 12 and he looks lik a monkey/demon/Andrew hybrid ) will never copmpare to JM and SMG's Amazing chemistry and total hotness in the show. And they brought down a building all by themselves, not powered up by Glow Juice! and getting superpowers that make them Gods or something.LOL
And i'm really sorry to tell you that Spike is coming . ( Probably after the 3 issue sex marathon or maybe right in the middle of it so he gets the message that ,"She's mine boy, and don't you forget it" ) I'm wearing my cynical hat today, but no matter what happens in Comic crackland, I'll always be Spuffy. :)
And i'm really sorry to tell you that Spike is coming . ( Probably after the 3 issue sex marathon or maybe right in the middle of it so he gets the message that ,"She's mine boy, and don't you forget it" ) I'm wearing my cynical hat today, but no matter what happens in Comic crackland, I'll always be Spuffy. :)
If Spike is used in the final issues, I really don't want to see him in any protector role for Buffy - what ever happens, Buffy has to be the character that owns up to any consequences, full out and takes full charge of the fixing if any is needed. We already know that the "potential fix it, fix characters" has been alluded to with the "this world" and "this plane" ideas. I can imagine where a new development would be taking the Slayer army into a time travel future where the wars that leads to the Fray time-line are taking place. There are some very powerful and interesting players in the Fray world. Some type of scenario with a future Angel, even a transformed Angel that has Shanshued or been changed would allow for this current story and still supposedly give the IDW company something to work with. I personally don't see how DarkHorse or Joss Whedon think this will play out for IDW - unless that company is given full control of writing the prequel to Angel/Angelus' transformation story into Twilight. Even then, how interesting or satisfying would that transformation story be if you already know the outcome. It would only be interesting to any reader that totally fall in love with this new Buffyverse that is being created.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Joss Whedon Interview - posting here because some of you might find it interesting even if it does tied into the comic season. The interview is from a TV Guide Q&A.
Do you feel that Buffy Season 8 has been a success, and where would you rank it in comparison to previous seasons?
I don't really compare it to the TV show because it's such a different animal. I feel that it's been a success. Definitely it's been a success in terms of the comic book and sales; and what's important for me, it's got into the Top Ten, and been in the Top Twenty in its whole run. It's not one of the big comic book companies, so that's exciting for the smaller companies. A lot of people weren't reading comic books, came in, started reading it, started reading other books because of it; that's exciting for the community.
The book itself I'm really proud of, and I think some of my writers have done amazing work on it. I feel like I've had a little less success keeping it focussed on where it needs to go. Sort of deliberately gone off on cul-de-sacs and sort of let people play with it a little bit. But in the second half now we're getting towards really the heart of the thing, where we're really going to hit people more emotionally, and it'll start to come up to the level of the show in a way that it did, but only occasionally.
Did Buffy and Faith share the dream in 'Graduation Day Part 2'?
I think it was Buffy's dream, but that Faith was reaching out in it. I feel like there was a part of Faith that wanted to tell Buffy that.
Was Drusilla a Slayer or possibly one of the Potentials before Angelus turned her? And is there any chance Dru will be dropping by the comics any time soon?
I think we shall be seeing Dru at some point, for sure. And a Potential Slayer? I can't say for sure, but it's a pretty good theory.
Speaking of the second half, will we see an actual Buffy/Angel reunion and/or a reaffirmation of their romantic feelings?
They're going to have sex for three issues straight. Nothing but porn. And that's what America needs.
Will Buffy ever know that Spike is alive?
Spike will appear in two of the three issues. I can't really describe how.
No, all of these things, you know, all of these characters we have licence to use in the Buffyverse but because a different company has the franchise we've been a little hands-off. But, you know, we've got so much to play with right now that we're waiting; but we won't wait forever. Got to see our boys.
Do you feel that Buffy Season 8 has been a success, and where would you rank it in comparison to previous seasons?
I don't really compare it to the TV show because it's such a different animal. I feel that it's been a success. Definitely it's been a success in terms of the comic book and sales; and what's important for me, it's got into the Top Ten, and been in the Top Twenty in its whole run. It's not one of the big comic book companies, so that's exciting for the smaller companies. A lot of people weren't reading comic books, came in, started reading it, started reading other books because of it; that's exciting for the community.
The book itself I'm really proud of, and I think some of my writers have done amazing work on it. I feel like I've had a little less success keeping it focussed on where it needs to go. Sort of deliberately gone off on cul-de-sacs and sort of let people play with it a little bit. But in the second half now we're getting towards really the heart of the thing, where we're really going to hit people more emotionally, and it'll start to come up to the level of the show in a way that it did, but only occasionally.
Do you feel that Buffy Season 8 has been a success, and where would you rank it in comparison to previous seasons?
I don't really compare it to the TV show because it's such a different animal. I feel that it's been a success. Definitely it's been a success in terms of the comic book and sales; and what's important for me, it's got into the Top Ten, and been in the Top Twenty in its whole run. It's not one of the big comic book companies, so that's exciting for the smaller companies. A lot of people weren't reading comic books, came in, started reading it, started reading other books because of it; that's exciting for the community.
The book itself I'm really proud of, and I think some of my writers have done amazing work on it. I feel like I've had a little less success keeping it focussed on where it needs to go. Sort of deliberately gone off on cul-de-sacs and sort of let people play with it a little bit. But in the second half now we're getting towards really the heart of the thing, where we're really going to hit people more emotionally, and it'll start to come up to the level of the show in a way that it did, but only occasionally.
Did Buffy and Faith share the dream in 'Graduation Day Part 2'?
I think it was Buffy's dream, but that Faith was reaching out in it. I feel like there was a part of Faith that wanted to tell Buffy that.
Was Drusilla a Slayer or possibly one of the Potentials before Angelus turned her? And is there any chance Dru will be dropping by the comics any time soon?
I think we shall be seeing Dru at some point, for sure. And a Potential Slayer? I can't say for sure, but it's a pretty good theory.
Speaking of the second half, will we see an actual Buffy/Angel reunion and/or a reaffirmation of their romantic feelings?
They're going to have sex for three issues straight. Nothing but porn. And that's what America needs.
Will Buffy ever know that Spike is alive?
Spike will appear in two of the three issues. I can't really describe how.
No, all of these things, you know, all of these characters we have licence to use in the Buffyverse but because a different company has the franchise we've been a little hands-off. But, you know, we've got so much to play with right now that we're waiting; but we won't wait forever. Got to see our boys.
Do you feel that Buffy Season 8 has been a success, and where would you rank it in comparison to previous seasons?
I don't really compare it to the TV show because it's such a different animal. I feel that it's been a success. Definitely it's been a success in terms of the comic book and sales; and what's important for me, it's got into the Top Ten, and been in the Top Twenty in its whole run. It's not one of the big comic book companies, so that's exciting for the smaller companies. A lot of people weren't reading comic books, came in, started reading it, started reading other books because of it; that's exciting for the community.
The book itself I'm really proud of, and I think some of my writers have done amazing work on it. I feel like I've had a little less success keeping it focussed on where it needs to go. Sort of deliberately gone off on cul-de-sacs and sort of let people play with it a little bit. But in the second half now we're getting towards really the heart of the thing, where we're really going to hit people more emotionally, and it'll start to come up to the level of the show in a way that it did, but only occasionally.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 07 2010 10:43 pm #63Adara
Guest
Okay, usually I just read the posts, but Joss Whedon saying what we need is porn?Eugh...I think I trowing up right now. Especially considering it is Bangel porn. Every ounce of repect I ever had for him is gone, really. Because even is s6, in which we have lots of fantastic sex, it is not random and actually is important to understand how things end. So, really, Joss, to say that what America needs is porn?! But, hey, I am in South America, so, maybe there is a percentage of really crazy Buffy fans living in US that want porn for 3 whole issues?
Mar 07 2010 10:53 pm #64slaymesoftly
Moderator
I'm pretty sure Joss was kidding about the porn...
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
You never know with the way this season is going ;) Nothing would surprise me...
Mar 08 2010 03:41 am #66slaymesoftly
Moderator
Got my comic this morning. Here's a link to what i had to say.slaymesoftly.livejournal.com/326184.html#cutid1
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Mar 08 2010 09:19 am #67pfeifferpack
I am giggling at how many others had the same epiphany the same way I did about Bangel. I really took notice when I was researching for a story making careful notes on every encounter between the two of them beginning in S1. In the episode Never kill a boy on a 1st date (I'm pretty sure that is the title)....Buffy is IGNORING an interested Angel and gushing about Owen to Willow in front of Angel and it is NOT to make him jealous. The next episode didn't have Angel in it at all and finally in the episode Angel, they kiss for the first time and Buffy discovers he is a vampire and freaks. From THIS they built the forever love???? There is no substance to it at all on either side. If you take it apart up to his becoming Angelus there is nearly zero interaction between them to build even a teenaged romance upon. After Angelus it all literally goes to hell so what is romantic there? Her guilt when she does her duty?????? Insane!
I think of Romeo and Juliet (or for Titanic buffs, Jack and Rose or any other "ill fated young lovers") and how unlikely the couples would stay together beyond a handful of stormy years at best. They haven't the foundation for withstanding all the "ill fate" tossed their way (and with Jack and Rose the class and economic differences would have jettisoned them very quickly). How much more so given that Angel and Buffy didn't even KNOW each other. Anyone remember any real conversations? They had "images" of each other....images that did not match who they were then much less now years (and maturity) later. To bill that as a destined romance and the heart of any love story angle in the verse is madness (or a 12 year old's fantasy).
Perhaps we need to remember that JW said himself that Xander represented the writers, then remember how Xander came across in all but that last year where he showed a bit of maturity.....it speaks volumes.
Kathleen
I think of Romeo and Juliet (or for Titanic buffs, Jack and Rose or any other "ill fated young lovers") and how unlikely the couples would stay together beyond a handful of stormy years at best. They haven't the foundation for withstanding all the "ill fate" tossed their way (and with Jack and Rose the class and economic differences would have jettisoned them very quickly). How much more so given that Angel and Buffy didn't even KNOW each other. Anyone remember any real conversations? They had "images" of each other....images that did not match who they were then much less now years (and maturity) later. To bill that as a destined romance and the heart of any love story angle in the verse is madness (or a 12 year old's fantasy).
Perhaps we need to remember that JW said himself that Xander represented the writers, then remember how Xander came across in all but that last year where he showed a bit of maturity.....it speaks volumes.
Kathleen
Mar 08 2010 09:37 am #68coalitiongirl
I think that a lot of people fell in love with the IDEA of Bangel, so much so that when Buffy and Angel started interacting, half the writers and the audience were convinced that they were already in love. This has always bothered me too- how much time did they actually spend together? How long did they "date"? Not long at all. Lol, my friend's been dating a girl lately and I asked him tonight if he could imagine marrying her- his response was "I've only dated her for ten hours!" and I thought of Bangel. Had they even spent that much time together before their confessions of love? Doubtful. And they spent three quarters of Angel's time on BtVS avoiding each other, breaking up with each other...honestly, the only plot Angel had in season 3 was that he WASN'T dating Buffy. :D (+ Amends). If they hadn't moved him to his own show, he would've become the Bill Compton to Spike's Eric Northman (for all you TB fans ;) ), with little character development for him because he'd become someone defined only by his relationship with someone else.
Thank you Coalitiongirl for the True Blood mention! It totally made my night! lol. And I've been making the comparsion between Angel/Spike & Bill/Eric since the second book. I'm glad someone sees the similarties.
~ Niori ~
Mar 08 2010 11:06 am #70clarityfades
Guest
My feelings on post-Chosen/NFA canon Bangel: DON'T CARE. I'm not reading the comics, I have no intention of reading the comics, & I feel the comics are just a way to further assassinate characters we've come to know & love--all in the name of the all-mighty dollar. Nothing I have seen or heard about the comics endears them to me or suggests that they are worth any moment of my time other than the time it takes to throw them in the trash. So, Bangel being canon doesn't really bother me. I always felt JW's hard-on for both Bangel & Bander hurt the show itself, so his need to make one a reality in the comics doesn't surprise me in the least. But I won't spend my hard-earned dollars on that crap. Just how I feel about it.
As far as Bangel vs. Spuffy--obviously Spuffy wins for me hands down. I saw a reference to comparing Romeo & Juliet & Bangel. YES!! I was never a fan of Romeo & Juliet, the characters...I always felt they were immature morons who mistook infatuation & the IDEA of being star-crossed & thought it meant they were twu wuv always. Seriously, from the first time I read R&J (@ age 10), I thought they were idiots. LOL & Bangel coming back together would make them just as stupid as R&J. (Unless they are in a threesome w/ Spike.) ;) B/c that's just how I roll. :P
My two cents...FWIW.
As far as Bangel vs. Spuffy--obviously Spuffy wins for me hands down. I saw a reference to comparing Romeo & Juliet & Bangel. YES!! I was never a fan of Romeo & Juliet, the characters...I always felt they were immature morons who mistook infatuation & the IDEA of being star-crossed & thought it meant they were twu wuv always. Seriously, from the first time I read R&J (@ age 10), I thought they were idiots. LOL & Bangel coming back together would make them just as stupid as R&J. (Unless they are in a threesome w/ Spike.) ;) B/c that's just how I roll. :P
My two cents...FWIW.
Mar 08 2010 11:44 am #71Always_jbj
Moderator
See, I've never understood why people who don't think Bangel could work think it would work if you added Spike to the mix. (Or Bangels who don't think Spuffy could work but think it would if you added Angel). To me that just makes it LESS likely to work... Spike and Angel are both very possesive, both very insecure in their own ways and I don't see any situation in which the three of them could work.
Having said that, I don't see Spike/Angel working any better than Buffy/Angel.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to
Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Mar 08 2010 05:41 pm #72coalitiongirl
Lol, people mostly like it because it's hot. :D
But really, I've read some fics that make Spuffel convincing, but more often than not they become all about the PWP with little evolution of the characters. I think that it's because Angel and Spike really are faceted characters but people tend to display only one side of them. (Oh, I'm totally guilty of this too! ;) ) If you just show Angel as cuddly and lovable, a la S3 of AtS, and Spike as recalcitrant and kind of sulky, a la his early Fanged Four days, they make a fun pair. Generally, I've seen the threesome depicted with Angel as the leader to playful kids Buffy and Spike, and I think that really does preclude so much of what Spike and Buffy (and even Angel) are about.
But really, I've read some fics that make Spuffel convincing, but more often than not they become all about the PWP with little evolution of the characters. I think that it's because Angel and Spike really are faceted characters but people tend to display only one side of them. (Oh, I'm totally guilty of this too! ;) ) If you just show Angel as cuddly and lovable, a la S3 of AtS, and Spike as recalcitrant and kind of sulky, a la his early Fanged Four days, they make a fun pair. Generally, I've seen the threesome depicted with Angel as the leader to playful kids Buffy and Spike, and I think that really does preclude so much of what Spike and Buffy (and even Angel) are about.
Every story that I have ever read that connects Buffy-Angel-Spike in a relationship, permanent or temporary has left me very dissatisfied. Either we have a triad that, IMOVHO, must have one of the characters (and that one is generally Spike) become involved in the relationship from an emotionally weakened position. The Spike character is generally accepting of the triad relationship because he feels psychologically and emotionally in the position of being "the lesser partner." Or the triad relationship is to initiate a sexual encounter, temporary or permanent. With Buffy-Angel-Spike, the history of Bangel in the intensity of their "love" relationship, irrespective of how the reader views it, will always imposed on the triad unless the writer has completely restructured the original settings of Bangel. If the writer works from the TV history, Buffy-Spike will also have to work from that starting point and the character traits that have been presented in the series. What we see in the series, and expressed clearly in their confessional hallway scene, is that Spike is totally the vulnerable character - the one of three that has always, in his entire life been the isolated. Outside of the love his shares with his mother, Spike has never found love with anyone, period.
How would a Buffy-Angel-Spike love relationship work? Why would Spike accept a triad, where he has always to accept that the woman he loves will always share her love, body and grace, her life down to the very core of her being, with another man? In my opinion, he would do it because he sees himself as the "fall back love" he would always be haunted with the "lesser man, lesser love." Spike would willing have to accept that Buffy could not truly love him or give all her love, to make the choice for their love and partnership.
A triad strictly for sexual gratification is an entire different matter - readers who enjoy intense sexual scenes can take the sexual life of Buffy-Angel-Spike and filter that relationship through their own perspective. I don't come to the Buffyverse fan fiction world from a desire to have any of the characters engaged in intense sexual encounters so a sexual triad between these three is not something that I particular care for. I personally find little enjoyment from sexual encounters for this triad and for a love relationship, again I do not enjoyed it because I don't believe that a deep or successful love could really survive a triad - one of the partners must always suffer emotionally and willingly accept the "I am the lesser."
I truly believe in the Spike and Buffy deep love relationship and their transformation journey - opting out for a shared love triad does not work for me at all.
How would a Buffy-Angel-Spike love relationship work? Why would Spike accept a triad, where he has always to accept that the woman he loves will always share her love, body and grace, her life down to the very core of her being, with another man? In my opinion, he would do it because he sees himself as the "fall back love" he would always be haunted with the "lesser man, lesser love." Spike would willing have to accept that Buffy could not truly love him or give all her love, to make the choice for their love and partnership.
A triad strictly for sexual gratification is an entire different matter - readers who enjoy intense sexual scenes can take the sexual life of Buffy-Angel-Spike and filter that relationship through their own perspective. I don't come to the Buffyverse fan fiction world from a desire to have any of the characters engaged in intense sexual encounters so a sexual triad between these three is not something that I particular care for. I personally find little enjoyment from sexual encounters for this triad and for a love relationship, again I do not enjoyed it because I don't believe that a deep or successful love could really survive a triad - one of the partners must always suffer emotionally and willingly accept the "I am the lesser."
I truly believe in the Spike and Buffy deep love relationship and their transformation journey - opting out for a shared love triad does not work for me at all.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Why would Spike accept a triad,where he always has to accept that the woman he loves will always share her love,body and grace, her life down to the core of her being with another man? That's it right there, Spike could maybe accept it for a while, maybe. But it would break his heart in the long run IMO.
Spuffel to me is just PWP, for people who enjoy the intense sexual scenes. Not saying that there aren't stories that aren't like that but the ones I've seen are like that. Even tho I admit I don't really read alot of Spuffel, so there might be "love" stories out there. But like you said nmcil, one partner will always suffer emotionally and think they are "less".And that will probably be Spike, so I don't wanna read that. I want Spike to be loved and happy, not part of a 3some, where he's less and feels like he's "not as loved".
For hotness and lotsa sex, Spuffel is fine. ;) But if it's love and a love relationship...no.
Mar 09 2010 03:51 am #75peck
Guest
Getting back to the original question, no there will not be a waning of spuffy. We are to ingrained with Spike to ever let go. I have never tried to read the comics, never had even a glimpse other than listening to what is said in posts. I knew right away that I wouldn't enjoy "Season 8". Our Spuffy writers will always have a fan base.
Mar 09 2010 03:57 am #76coalitiongirl
75 posts on this in less than a week... yep, Spuffy's still going strong. :)
Good lecture & Q&A which Joss Whedon gave at Harvard Secular Society - long but I thought it was very good
http://forum-network.org/lecture/joss-whedon-cultural-humanist
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I may be wrong -- but I don't think so -- I think in the true test of time that because of two charismatic characters and two actors with smoking chemistry, that Spuffy will be the pairing that gets remembered in the long run. They had it from the moment Spike stepped into the Bronze and watched Buffy dancing under the lights -- in that smoldering look he gives her as he's pacing around the dance floor, I knew something Buffyverse altering had just happened. And I wasn't wrong. There was more heat in that moment then there was in any of her lame kisses with Angel.
That was the moment that launched a million fanfics.
That was the moment that launched a million fanfics.
Niamh -
Totally agree with you - Spike and Buffy were perfect together , even something like just being the right size for each other - Riley and Angel towered over her, with Spike she was at eye level and they could do all those up close encounters that seemed very spontaneous, like their snarky scenes in "Pangs" or romantic lovers in "Something Blue" one of the best shots, IMO, is when they are told about Willow's spell and the shot they have of them together with those looks of confusion and disbelieve - their size allowed for that scene.
In my view, Spike rejuvenated the series - they could do things with Spike that were much more interesting than Cordelia who while a great character was too close in age and life experience with the other characters. It was interesting to hear Joss Whedon describe Faith as the mroe developed of the Slayers in the lecture - I knew he felt that Spike was more developed than Angel/Angelus.
Totally agree with you - Spike and Buffy were perfect together , even something like just being the right size for each other - Riley and Angel towered over her, with Spike she was at eye level and they could do all those up close encounters that seemed very spontaneous, like their snarky scenes in "Pangs" or romantic lovers in "Something Blue" one of the best shots, IMO, is when they are told about Willow's spell and the shot they have of them together with those looks of confusion and disbelieve - their size allowed for that scene.
In my view, Spike rejuvenated the series - they could do things with Spike that were much more interesting than Cordelia who while a great character was too close in age and life experience with the other characters. It was interesting to hear Joss Whedon describe Faith as the mroe developed of the Slayers in the lecture - I knew he felt that Spike was more developed than Angel/Angelus.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 09 2010 09:13 am #80ladycat713
Guest
Word, Niamh. In fact Spuffy was the first fanfic I got seriously hooked on. I ran across it when I had lost the addy to a Ranma 1/2 continuation called DnR (I can't spell it out I don't know Japanase) . The site I found has long since died but I atarted readin and didn't stop until I had read everything on there. The unfinished fic Angel in Chains by lynx was there and I still reread it even though I know it''ll never be finished.
Even though I now read fanfic in other fandoms, I haven't put Spuffy behind me. My love for it has me checking fanfic sites daily for updates.
Long live Spuffy fic!
Even though I now read fanfic in other fandoms, I haven't put Spuffy behind me. My love for it has me checking fanfic sites daily for updates.
Long live Spuffy fic!
Being far from a more mercurial younger person, I will always love Spuffy. Heck, I'm still reading Nick/Natalie fanfic from Forever Knight!
Mar 11 2010 07:16 pm #82BandSpikelissa
Guest
Waning of Spuffy...nope never gonna happen. I have read all the comics even the Asylum Spike based one's. I did end up quite possibly seeing someone else for Spike, but ultimately I will always ship Spuffy first.
This comic crap and Allie Ass...well, lets just say given that we had the televised show with some amazing actors and actresses this comic is just exactly what I read somewhere else on this forum...Can't remember exactly, but the said that this comic was just a piss poor job of writing fan fiction. Well something like that. I agree with that.
I don't know if anyone has kept up with the Angel comics. I really don't like them, but my brother got me to read them lol. In this last issue # 30 Illyria asks Angel to be her moral guidance...I was like wtf?????
I have no respect for Joss and company except they brought characters to us that we can love based from the tv shows. I am tired of this, as I said in the forum I started about Twilight, about how they have molded Angel into an actual Angel he can do no wrong.
Sorry I have this massive headache from a damn migraine. Check out my last comment on the Twilight Revealed forum. I have no love for the JW and others although I don't mind D.Fury at all.
So to not repeat everything that has been already said, I completely agree especially Niamh. You said it all quite beautifully!
But 3 days worth of sex...ok let me go back to Origins then...Yes I did another re-read of Niamh's series lol...Having heard that and what they are doing I'm glad I stoppped buying the damn comics back at # 4...downloads to check it out from now on...I am saving my money for something a million times better than his piss poor 'fan fic' to his own idea comic. Ugh....I need to clean my eyes and read happier fiction...Bless every single fan fic Spuffy writer...I guess I can fall into that too (giggles) and maybe someday I will find my words to finish my stories lol....
This comic crap and Allie Ass...well, lets just say given that we had the televised show with some amazing actors and actresses this comic is just exactly what I read somewhere else on this forum...Can't remember exactly, but the said that this comic was just a piss poor job of writing fan fiction. Well something like that. I agree with that.
I don't know if anyone has kept up with the Angel comics. I really don't like them, but my brother got me to read them lol. In this last issue # 30 Illyria asks Angel to be her moral guidance...I was like wtf?????
I have no respect for Joss and company except they brought characters to us that we can love based from the tv shows. I am tired of this, as I said in the forum I started about Twilight, about how they have molded Angel into an actual Angel he can do no wrong.
Sorry I have this massive headache from a damn migraine. Check out my last comment on the Twilight Revealed forum. I have no love for the JW and others although I don't mind D.Fury at all.
So to not repeat everything that has been already said, I completely agree especially Niamh. You said it all quite beautifully!
But 3 days worth of sex...ok let me go back to Origins then...Yes I did another re-read of Niamh's series lol...Having heard that and what they are doing I'm glad I stoppped buying the damn comics back at # 4...downloads to check it out from now on...I am saving my money for something a million times better than his piss poor 'fan fic' to his own idea comic. Ugh....I need to clean my eyes and read happier fiction...Bless every single fan fic Spuffy writer...I guess I can fall into that too (giggles) and maybe someday I will find my words to finish my stories lol....
Hope you start to feel better - your headaches sound like they are making your life miserable. I have only had one migraine headache in my life - something I can continue to live without all the time.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 12 2010 12:17 am #84BandS
Guest
Thanks Nmcil...getting there. Now if sisters wouldn't be so darn defensive then I would be very happy.
I just wanted to point out something that keeps nagging at my brain. It is of no offense to anyone, but I notice how we Spuffy fans seem to dig deep into meaning and look so very very closely at all these plot holes. Having said that, I'm constantly wondering if we read way too much into it and these are just (mainly hormonal men) putting words to paper and drawings. Anyone can do that if they really wanted to and took the time to do. I'm sure there are still women on this 'team' of writers, but my issue is this...they have done ever single damn cliche it's bordering on boring.
I think Scarlet said something to this effect about we shouldn't use real or even law abiding rules to base our own opinions on what JW and company gave us on the show. When I first saw Buffy and watched Angel panting after her I was sickened. It actually brought up old issues and nightmares for me. To me it was a sick obsession and I couldn't get over the fact writers in this age condoned this. Granted this is fantasy, but my problem with that is humans still wrote the thing.
Perfect example: Take Dracula. Gary Oldman 'Dracula' (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm being lazy and should check lol) stalked the innocent Winona Ryder's character and intended to seduce as the big cliche of vampires go. I hate the fact that vampires are always seen as some ugly monstrosity, but hey maybe I should of stepped up my goals and followed that route of the entertainment industry. Well, I didn't. Just like some of us dream to do these things we are just as realistic and stick to what we know.
My point with Dracula...well Winona didn't look young, but I believe she was except not as young as Buffy was with Angel during their attempt at what I find is the most unrealistic version of true love...ever.
I honestly don't think they even considered the age thing at all. And yes, many would agree that other countries see 16 as the adult age or have different cultural beliefs, but when it all comes down to it--we can't say it's different because it's supernatural and those rules don't apply. We didn't write it, but writers VERY aware of laws and ethics and morale, did.
I am not blasting anyone who feels that Buffyverse shouldn't have the same rules apply that humans do, that its simply fantasy, but you don't see well named writers/directors taking that direction. I love Quentin Tarantino's movie From Dusk Til Dawn. In this movie Richard has a sick fascination with women, and even Kate (Juliette Lewis). There is clearly a grown man oggling a young girl, but he does it in a way that can be classified as 'safe' from going further. Seth (George Clooney) keeps it in check. That is tasteful, however, what Joss did--wasn't. This was t.v. and they made it seem like just because she was a Slayer, she is older than she is. They have David looking young so that it wouldn't cause an uproar, but then his story unfolds and you wonder how writers with knowledge of human rules can write a grown man (vampire) oggling a 15 year old then having sex with her at 17 and calling this love. IT is RARE to find that kind of love in your life. I didn't see that, and this made me lose lots of respect for that show and tune more into Dawson, Roswell, and then later One Tree Hill more. I don't give a crap if it's supernatural or not...he was clearly TOO OLD FOR HER! She couldn't make up her mind what she wanted to wear to school! In fact I feel the media is becoming this beacon of 'it's ok to do' because it's being shown to the world.
I should probably not talk because I allow my daughter to watch Family Guy with me...It was hard to keep it from her but she fell in love with Stewie...I know horrible. I think it all boils down to we can't protect the young from harsh reality no matter what we do, and I do agree what was different then isn't what it is today. But you have to wonder if that's true then why write something even supernatural in nature that is frowned upon in some areas? Some say age is just a number, and I agree...Except I really felt Buffy was so immature and well Angel...Uh, given that we do have of his history...I still shake my head that these were Human writers writing a perp's/pedophiles dream...And the other point I wanted to make is that the world is constantly evolving--so maybe one day it will be realized that ethics and morale do have a point. I was in fact shocked to learn the age of an adult in some countries...but then I look at my own self and realized crap I grew up long before most of those 16 year old's did...and it wasn't my choice to either. What a crazy world we live in.
Back to the Waning though...I don't think Spuffy will ever wane though. After so many years and still around, I can say without a doubt even with those nasty comics...Spuffy will live on!
I just wanted to point out something that keeps nagging at my brain. It is of no offense to anyone, but I notice how we Spuffy fans seem to dig deep into meaning and look so very very closely at all these plot holes. Having said that, I'm constantly wondering if we read way too much into it and these are just (mainly hormonal men) putting words to paper and drawings. Anyone can do that if they really wanted to and took the time to do. I'm sure there are still women on this 'team' of writers, but my issue is this...they have done ever single damn cliche it's bordering on boring.
I think Scarlet said something to this effect about we shouldn't use real or even law abiding rules to base our own opinions on what JW and company gave us on the show. When I first saw Buffy and watched Angel panting after her I was sickened. It actually brought up old issues and nightmares for me. To me it was a sick obsession and I couldn't get over the fact writers in this age condoned this. Granted this is fantasy, but my problem with that is humans still wrote the thing.
Perfect example: Take Dracula. Gary Oldman 'Dracula' (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm being lazy and should check lol) stalked the innocent Winona Ryder's character and intended to seduce as the big cliche of vampires go. I hate the fact that vampires are always seen as some ugly monstrosity, but hey maybe I should of stepped up my goals and followed that route of the entertainment industry. Well, I didn't. Just like some of us dream to do these things we are just as realistic and stick to what we know.
My point with Dracula...well Winona didn't look young, but I believe she was except not as young as Buffy was with Angel during their attempt at what I find is the most unrealistic version of true love...ever.
I honestly don't think they even considered the age thing at all. And yes, many would agree that other countries see 16 as the adult age or have different cultural beliefs, but when it all comes down to it--we can't say it's different because it's supernatural and those rules don't apply. We didn't write it, but writers VERY aware of laws and ethics and morale, did.
I am not blasting anyone who feels that Buffyverse shouldn't have the same rules apply that humans do, that its simply fantasy, but you don't see well named writers/directors taking that direction. I love Quentin Tarantino's movie From Dusk Til Dawn. In this movie Richard has a sick fascination with women, and even Kate (Juliette Lewis). There is clearly a grown man oggling a young girl, but he does it in a way that can be classified as 'safe' from going further. Seth (George Clooney) keeps it in check. That is tasteful, however, what Joss did--wasn't. This was t.v. and they made it seem like just because she was a Slayer, she is older than she is. They have David looking young so that it wouldn't cause an uproar, but then his story unfolds and you wonder how writers with knowledge of human rules can write a grown man (vampire) oggling a 15 year old then having sex with her at 17 and calling this love. IT is RARE to find that kind of love in your life. I didn't see that, and this made me lose lots of respect for that show and tune more into Dawson, Roswell, and then later One Tree Hill more. I don't give a crap if it's supernatural or not...he was clearly TOO OLD FOR HER! She couldn't make up her mind what she wanted to wear to school! In fact I feel the media is becoming this beacon of 'it's ok to do' because it's being shown to the world.
I should probably not talk because I allow my daughter to watch Family Guy with me...It was hard to keep it from her but she fell in love with Stewie...I know horrible. I think it all boils down to we can't protect the young from harsh reality no matter what we do, and I do agree what was different then isn't what it is today. But you have to wonder if that's true then why write something even supernatural in nature that is frowned upon in some areas? Some say age is just a number, and I agree...Except I really felt Buffy was so immature and well Angel...Uh, given that we do have of his history...I still shake my head that these were Human writers writing a perp's/pedophiles dream...And the other point I wanted to make is that the world is constantly evolving--so maybe one day it will be realized that ethics and morale do have a point. I was in fact shocked to learn the age of an adult in some countries...but then I look at my own self and realized crap I grew up long before most of those 16 year old's did...and it wasn't my choice to either. What a crazy world we live in.
Back to the Waning though...I don't think Spuffy will ever wane though. After so many years and still around, I can say without a doubt even with those nasty comics...Spuffy will live on!
The whole Buffy-Angel age difference didn't bother me at first (I was really young when Buffy first started that I thought that 16 was completely grown up and matured...I've learned since then lol). It was when they showed the flashback of when Angel first saw her that got me squicked out- were they freakin' TRYING to make him look like a creepy pediophile? I mean, the outfit made her look like a little girl was bad enough, but the lolipop did it for me. That was creepy beyond all belief, and even my Bangel loving friend agreed that it was extremely sqiucky.
~ Niori ~
Mar 12 2010 12:43 am #86coalitiongirl
Exactly what Niori said about that flashback
To be fair, though, I'm not squicked by the idea of Buffy at that age with Spike... I do appreciate it more when she's older and I'm now actually struggling to make more time pass in my WIP so that she'll be older when she meets Spike, but I think it's more of an anti-Bangel thing for me than an anti-age difference thing. (Then again, I'm opposed to Bander because I feel like it's incest, but I'm somewhat okay with Spuffycest...) ;)
To be fair, though, I'm not squicked by the idea of Buffy at that age with Spike... I do appreciate it more when she's older and I'm now actually struggling to make more time pass in my WIP so that she'll be older when she meets Spike, but I think it's more of an anti-Bangel thing for me than an anti-age difference thing. (Then again, I'm opposed to Bander because I feel like it's incest, but I'm somewhat okay with Spuffycest...) ;)
See, if Spike had saw Buffy sitting down looking all girly sucking on a lolipop at 15 and fallen automatically in love with her, I'd have been squicked out at that too. It's not so much the age difference, but the whole illusion to a creepy pheodplie, intentional or not. Seriously, it's creepy no matter who does it.
~ Niori ~
Mar 12 2010 01:11 am #88BandS
Guest
Correction: oopsie I was focused on the whole teen thing more than her actual age. At 17 I dated a 23 year old so...it wasn't the age to me...It was how it was presented and taking in the maturity levels. I didn't find Angel immature at all. I found him creepy and all shudder worthy that I wanted to run myself. The lollypop thing solidified my feelings...His stalkery was what got me squeeked out! So ya it was more the presentation, that's why I added that age is just a number and I agree with that.
However seeing Season 1 then going through Season 2 Bangel and how it was presented had ick factors times a million. I was like wait isn't this like that story in the media with the teacher and the little boy...see squick factor.
I think it was Niamh who pointed out that Angel asks her if she loves him and she says she does but not sure if she trusts him...that was strange to me and so forced and so unrealistic.
Honestly, if Spike did that...I still think he would have done it differently than Angel did. Spike may have been 'stalking' her by standing outside her house behind a tree, but it simply seemed to me like he was 'watching' over her more than stalking her.
So ya the creepiness and ickiness no matter who does it...I agree, but feel Spike would be cockey and obnoxious...but creepy, no.
However seeing Season 1 then going through Season 2 Bangel and how it was presented had ick factors times a million. I was like wait isn't this like that story in the media with the teacher and the little boy...see squick factor.
I think it was Niamh who pointed out that Angel asks her if she loves him and she says she does but not sure if she trusts him...that was strange to me and so forced and so unrealistic.
Honestly, if Spike did that...I still think he would have done it differently than Angel did. Spike may have been 'stalking' her by standing outside her house behind a tree, but it simply seemed to me like he was 'watching' over her more than stalking her.
So ya the creepiness and ickiness no matter who does it...I agree, but feel Spike would be cockey and obnoxious...but creepy, no.
It's the LIFE EXPERIENCE aside from any issues of age that is the problem - I had to watch School Hard today for refresher on the episode - and what we see is that Buffy is letting her school work go, the story is by Whedon and Greenwalt and they show Buffy as not doing well in school, they show that instead of staying home and doing her homework and studies when Willow mentions The Bronze and that Angel might be there, she immediately makes her choice to go to the night club and moves her home work studies to that environment simply because Angel might show up. I may be an old fuddy- duddy, but this is not what I would consider making good choices. Granted that the plot requires a meeting between Buffy and Spike and it must also tie in with the parent teacher night, but intended or not, the treatment of Buffy making this choice to go Bronzing for a possible connection with this boyfriend instead of staying home and doing her homework, at least to my perspective, is not a good thing.
Buffy is depicted as a young inexperienced teenager - and Angel/Angelus, he knows life - he has lived it for over two hundred years - for me, this difference in age is a huge part of the circumstances that pertain to their relationship. However, the creators obviously don't see a problem with the difference of their lives - Giles as her adult mentor is perfectly accepting of her pursuit of Angel and the part that he wants to play in her life. Giles and Jenny both accept that this young girl who knows nothing of the complexity of a mature and adult relationship is going to be involved with this much older male.
Getting back to the question of Buffy and Spike being together in a sexual relationship at this time - what is wrong in the Buffy-Angel/Angelus relationship I believe is the same for Buffy-Spike. There are many wonderful stories that have them sexually involved while she is still in high school - things can get into big-time "questionable" when high school Buffy starts getting into hot and heavy sex with Spike - after all, she is still the same character.
Buffy and Angel/Angelus were almost set-up to fail. when Joss Whedon portrays Buffy as a dual character, the young teen girl that wants boy friends and a social life contrasted with Buffy the Slayer and all the extreme dangers that come with that duty. We know its a metaphor, but its a very hard relationship to accept or feel comfortable with.
Buffy is depicted as a young inexperienced teenager - and Angel/Angelus, he knows life - he has lived it for over two hundred years - for me, this difference in age is a huge part of the circumstances that pertain to their relationship. However, the creators obviously don't see a problem with the difference of their lives - Giles as her adult mentor is perfectly accepting of her pursuit of Angel and the part that he wants to play in her life. Giles and Jenny both accept that this young girl who knows nothing of the complexity of a mature and adult relationship is going to be involved with this much older male.
Getting back to the question of Buffy and Spike being together in a sexual relationship at this time - what is wrong in the Buffy-Angel/Angelus relationship I believe is the same for Buffy-Spike. There are many wonderful stories that have them sexually involved while she is still in high school - things can get into big-time "questionable" when high school Buffy starts getting into hot and heavy sex with Spike - after all, she is still the same character.
Buffy and Angel/Angelus were almost set-up to fail. when Joss Whedon portrays Buffy as a dual character, the young teen girl that wants boy friends and a social life contrasted with Buffy the Slayer and all the extreme dangers that come with that duty. We know its a metaphor, but its a very hard relationship to accept or feel comfortable with.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 12 2010 03:52 am #90Spikez_tart
not what I would consider making good choices. - which is why 16 year olds don't get to make many choices - their brains are still jello.
Interesting point that the adults in Buffy's life are not crushing down her little crush on Angel utterly. Joyce gives him the fish eye but doesn't have a clue what Buffy's up to and you have to ask why that is. She must know Buffy is out running around town and not doing her school work? Giles and Jenny have no excuse at all. Joss really has a thing about beating up on Baby Boomers. Pretty much deserved IMHO.
In Angel's defense, (at least once Buffy is over the lollipop sucking stage), in his time, and even in Spike's, 16 year old girls were getting married, running farms, working like dogs, cooking, sewing, having children and not infrequently dying while having them. He wouldn't necessarily see her as being too young in the same way we do.
Interesting point that the adults in Buffy's life are not crushing down her little crush on Angel utterly. Joyce gives him the fish eye but doesn't have a clue what Buffy's up to and you have to ask why that is. She must know Buffy is out running around town and not doing her school work? Giles and Jenny have no excuse at all. Joss really has a thing about beating up on Baby Boomers. Pretty much deserved IMHO.
In Angel's defense, (at least once Buffy is over the lollipop sucking stage), in his time, and even in Spike's, 16 year old girls were getting married, running farms, working like dogs, cooking, sewing, having children and not infrequently dying while having them. He wouldn't necessarily see her as being too young in the same way we do.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I am so curious about what Joss Whedon is going to do with his Buffyverse -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
In Angel's defense, (at least once Buffy is over the lollipop sucking stage), in his time, and even in Spike's, 16 year old girls were getting married, running farms, working like dogs, cooking, sewing, having children and not infrequently dying while having them. He wouldn't necessarily see her as being too young in the same way we do.
Agreed. However, that worked for me up until that moment in Becoming when Joss made the choice to highlight Buffy's immaturity the first time Angel sets eyes on her. He gives her the quintessential childhood prop -- the lollipop. IMHO, Joss was subconsciously working the pedophile angle -- and, okay, he may not have realized it at the time, but do you honestly mean to tell me, he never goes back over the things he did?
And while Angel's stalking squicked me, Spike's never did. Contrasting sharply against Angel's (albeit belated introduction), Spike's first look at Buffy is completely adult. She's not a child, she's very clearly on the cusp of being a woman and there's no doubt in his mind, that she's all woman. Angel looked at Buffy as if she were a child -- doesn't he even say something about how young she is? Spike never makes that distinction. It's a minor point, but a not insignificant one.
Up until Becoming, we have no idea of Angel's first glimpse of Buffy and I'm sure, for most of us, it set off alarm signals of the worst kind. It should have also shed some further light into his behavior from the earlier episodes -- which was clearly that of an obsessed older man, stalking after an unobtainable, highly impressionable very young girl.
Joyce, especially in the earlier episodes, was oblivious to what was going on around her. She either wilfully ignored the signs of her daughter's behavior, or she was incredibly stupid. The only other explanation I can believe is that Joyce was well on her way to being an alcoholic after her split from Hank, because, again, in Becoming, Buffy snidely remarks that she should "go have another drink". Those are not words a child flings at a teatotaling parent. Those are words yelled in anger at a parent that drinks too much, too often. The sanctification of Joyce after her death annoys me, because in the early seasons, she was a lousy mother, she had moments of being okay, but for the most part? Not so much.
Giles, while intelligent, was woefully incapable of controlling anyone, especially a hormonal slayer. But again, he should have been far more wary of an elder, master vampire slinking after his slayer than he was on the show. His belated concern -- after Jenny's murder -- is closing the barn door after the horses have fled.
Jenny's excuse could be chalked up to her background, since gypsy girls are still married off at a young age, often times to much older men.
So really, Buffy's adult role models weren't all that strong anyway. I suspect that Hank might've been a bit more strict, but we'll never know, because he disappeared after 2 episodes. (Personally, I like to think that Spike or Drusilla ate him, but that's because he really wasn't that much better a parent than Joyce). What we do know is that Buffy put a lot of stock in Hank's opinion -- so I suspect she was something of a Daddy's girl. (Which goes to explain somewhat why she would be attracted to a much older Angel. And Spike.)
I suspect that part of the reason why Buffy convinced herself she was in love with Angel was because she felt isolated and alone, and Angel was in a similar situation, though he had more time to adjust. So she sort of latched onto him. Look what was going on around her -- Willow had both Oz and Xander, Giles had Jenny, Xander had Cordelia, her mother had Ted -- and even if the relationship was doomed and dysfunctional everyone but Buffy had a honey.
Agreed. However, that worked for me up until that moment in Becoming when Joss made the choice to highlight Buffy's immaturity the first time Angel sets eyes on her. He gives her the quintessential childhood prop -- the lollipop. IMHO, Joss was subconsciously working the pedophile angle -- and, okay, he may not have realized it at the time, but do you honestly mean to tell me, he never goes back over the things he did?
And while Angel's stalking squicked me, Spike's never did. Contrasting sharply against Angel's (albeit belated introduction), Spike's first look at Buffy is completely adult. She's not a child, she's very clearly on the cusp of being a woman and there's no doubt in his mind, that she's all woman. Angel looked at Buffy as if she were a child -- doesn't he even say something about how young she is? Spike never makes that distinction. It's a minor point, but a not insignificant one.
Up until Becoming, we have no idea of Angel's first glimpse of Buffy and I'm sure, for most of us, it set off alarm signals of the worst kind. It should have also shed some further light into his behavior from the earlier episodes -- which was clearly that of an obsessed older man, stalking after an unobtainable, highly impressionable very young girl.
Joyce, especially in the earlier episodes, was oblivious to what was going on around her. She either wilfully ignored the signs of her daughter's behavior, or she was incredibly stupid. The only other explanation I can believe is that Joyce was well on her way to being an alcoholic after her split from Hank, because, again, in Becoming, Buffy snidely remarks that she should "go have another drink". Those are not words a child flings at a teatotaling parent. Those are words yelled in anger at a parent that drinks too much, too often. The sanctification of Joyce after her death annoys me, because in the early seasons, she was a lousy mother, she had moments of being okay, but for the most part? Not so much.
Giles, while intelligent, was woefully incapable of controlling anyone, especially a hormonal slayer. But again, he should have been far more wary of an elder, master vampire slinking after his slayer than he was on the show. His belated concern -- after Jenny's murder -- is closing the barn door after the horses have fled.
Jenny's excuse could be chalked up to her background, since gypsy girls are still married off at a young age, often times to much older men.
So really, Buffy's adult role models weren't all that strong anyway. I suspect that Hank might've been a bit more strict, but we'll never know, because he disappeared after 2 episodes. (Personally, I like to think that Spike or Drusilla ate him, but that's because he really wasn't that much better a parent than Joyce). What we do know is that Buffy put a lot of stock in Hank's opinion -- so I suspect she was something of a Daddy's girl. (Which goes to explain somewhat why she would be attracted to a much older Angel. And Spike.)
I suspect that part of the reason why Buffy convinced herself she was in love with Angel was because she felt isolated and alone, and Angel was in a similar situation, though he had more time to adjust. So she sort of latched onto him. Look what was going on around her -- Willow had both Oz and Xander, Giles had Jenny, Xander had Cordelia, her mother had Ted -- and even if the relationship was doomed and dysfunctional everyone but Buffy had a honey.
For me, Joyce didn't seem to fill that 'good mother' role until Dawn. As said above, with Buffy her parenting skills lacked. I still liked her, but she wasn't the perfect mom she's protrayed as in later seasons. But with Dawn, I see her fulfiling that role where she didn't with Buffy.
~ Niori ~
Mar 12 2010 07:19 am #94coalitiongirl
I was all ready to argue with your take on Joyce...but then I realized that it was actually true. Which depresses me a bit, because I've really had this idealized version of her in my mind. I think that the problem with Buffy and Joyce was similar to the problem with Buffy and Riley- she wanted to be caregiver for Buffy, who's naturally the strong one. I think that's part of why she's so different in S5, and so much better as a mother, because she and Buffy are finally in situations where they're compatible- Joyce is ill, and Buffy cares for her.
Joyce might not have been the perfect good mother, but then who is? Give the woman a break, not many could sail through a husband's infidelity, divorce, a move to a new town, new job, and making a home for herself and her seemingly delinquent daughter. I'm not surprised she has a drink! Here endeth the lesson. :boohoo:
Mar 12 2010 10:31 am #96ladycat713
Guest
Bangel just bored me at first .They just made think of all those drama queen girls in high school who who go on and on about thier boyfriends the I rolled my eyes at. You know, the ones who would throw out Romeo and Juliet as a reason taht thier love was true completely ignoring that Romeo and Juliet's love wasn't forbiodden because of age (since people died much younger then) but because thier familes were enemies.
Then they showed that lollipop scene and I went ewww! I think Whistler said something about her being better looking than the others or something to him. It just made the whole thing where a grown man deciding to do good because he got an erection.
With Spike it was different, because he first saw Buffy as the Slayer and as a woman (not child) with power. He later fell in love with the Buffy part of her but it was the Slayer and woman that got his attention.
Not to mention one of the greatest differences in Bangel and Spuffy is that Angel always seems to treat Buffy as a child who should always do what he says, Spike talks to her one on one and tries to get her to open up .
Then they showed that lollipop scene and I went ewww! I think Whistler said something about her being better looking than the others or something to him. It just made the whole thing where a grown man deciding to do good because he got an erection.
With Spike it was different, because he first saw Buffy as the Slayer and as a woman (not child) with power. He later fell in love with the Buffy part of her but it was the Slayer and woman that got his attention.
Not to mention one of the greatest differences in Bangel and Spuffy is that Angel always seems to treat Buffy as a child who should always do what he says, Spike talks to her one on one and tries to get her to open up .
It's such an interesting subject, the perceptions and interpretations of the viewers regarding Bangel and Spuffy. Just one example of the huge contrasts of visuals, characters and contrasts and inversion. The Star Crossed Lovers versus the primal forces of sex and predators & prey, IMO and interpretation - when Spike first looks upon Buffy, we definitely get the message of a predator chasing his prey and the sexual force of a male after a female. With Buffy and Angel/Angelus, while, and again strictly an individual perception and interpretation, we have a powerful male looking at a female who will once the sexual connection is made becomes the predator. It's such an effective conversion from the overt sexual-predator-equals-warrior to warrior and the inequality of the first love-child-adult-partner. With Buffy-Spike, we never see Buffy as a victim or vulnerable, with Buffy-Angel/Angelus all that love makes her completely vulnerable and she becomes the victim. What is so fascinating is how viewers and currents fans interpret continue to interpret these two relationships - how people have such different interpretations and perspectives. Nor is it just an issue of younger viewers age and experiences, there were and continue to be large numbers of adults totally accepting of the Buffy-Angel/Angelus Love relationship.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 12 2010 10:07 pm #98pfeifferpack
I agree with most of what everyone has been saying...just a couple of other thoughts:
I have often thought that it was possible that Buffy's "deep love" for Angel actually was a psychological necessity for her after he turned into Angelus. Prior to that it was a "first love" sort of thing that in the normal world would likely have played out and they would have parted once they took off the rose colored glasses and saw the other truly (or she got tired of him treating her as a child). BUT....people had died, people close to her and her friends and all because of her "love" for Angel stopping her from staking him when he lost his soul. Surely (she might think subconsciously) that love had to be special, nearly holy, for her to have let it get that far out of hand! The price paid for that love was so high that on the balance sheet the love had to be that deep even if it really wasn't.
I think people in general have issues with "TWU LUV" and their age has nothing to do with it. Look at all the adults that aren't raising eyebrows at Twilight (the books)....in fact...the adult women are the most vocal! There you have a real stalker and the girl is so much a klutz that he and his vampire family CARRY HER AROUND SO SHE WON'T HURT HERSELF? They think Bella and Edward are TWU LUV just as many adults seem to have decided Bangel represented! The issue is the definition, perception of love as fluffy fantasy crap or the real messy thing it is.
On the age difference....it is more the divide between maturity I have issue with (and the lollipop intro that made it clear to me that Buffy's youth and innocence had a great deal to do with Angel's interest...even Whistler commented that Buffy must have been much prettier than other slayers that Angel was willing to help).
I did a post on LJ about the legal age of consent just before my back went out and I was offline for quite a while. It got .... interesting. I tried to make it clear that I was not endorsing the "18 for a girl even if she is willing" part of the statutory rape laws of California. I know that Buffy encouraged that encounter that lost Angel's soul. I was mostly sick to death of reading Bangels in particular go on about how Spike was a rapist and therefore unfit for a love interest and that the fans of Spuffy were rapist apologists or lovers! I was pointing out that Angel was guilty of rape too in the eyes of the law. (This is a sensitive issue with me because I am very much Spuffy and having overcome rape in my own life I resent anyone saying I condone rape or rapists!). The one point everyone kept coming back to was that the Bangel sex was okay because Buffy wanted it (missing my point about the legal definition counting) and/or that human laws couldn't be applied to a vampire. You know, if that is so then you can't call Spike a rapist either as he was a soulless vampire when SR happened! I just figured you can't hold it against one and not the other. The age DOES matter then, at least for the legal definition of rape. Evidently the State of California seems to feel that a girl cannot give mature, informed consent until 18. They may well be wrong but that is still the law.
Sorry for the rant there at the end. I really don't care about the age difference, I simply never bought the "love" story of Bangel at all. It was forced and did not reflect real love of two people who know each other and care for one another in a committed way. Pure fantasy of the kind that leads to many a young marriage and divorce in the real world.
Kathleen
I have often thought that it was possible that Buffy's "deep love" for Angel actually was a psychological necessity for her after he turned into Angelus. Prior to that it was a "first love" sort of thing that in the normal world would likely have played out and they would have parted once they took off the rose colored glasses and saw the other truly (or she got tired of him treating her as a child). BUT....people had died, people close to her and her friends and all because of her "love" for Angel stopping her from staking him when he lost his soul. Surely (she might think subconsciously) that love had to be special, nearly holy, for her to have let it get that far out of hand! The price paid for that love was so high that on the balance sheet the love had to be that deep even if it really wasn't.
I think people in general have issues with "TWU LUV" and their age has nothing to do with it. Look at all the adults that aren't raising eyebrows at Twilight (the books)....in fact...the adult women are the most vocal! There you have a real stalker and the girl is so much a klutz that he and his vampire family CARRY HER AROUND SO SHE WON'T HURT HERSELF? They think Bella and Edward are TWU LUV just as many adults seem to have decided Bangel represented! The issue is the definition, perception of love as fluffy fantasy crap or the real messy thing it is.
On the age difference....it is more the divide between maturity I have issue with (and the lollipop intro that made it clear to me that Buffy's youth and innocence had a great deal to do with Angel's interest...even Whistler commented that Buffy must have been much prettier than other slayers that Angel was willing to help).
I did a post on LJ about the legal age of consent just before my back went out and I was offline for quite a while. It got .... interesting. I tried to make it clear that I was not endorsing the "18 for a girl even if she is willing" part of the statutory rape laws of California. I know that Buffy encouraged that encounter that lost Angel's soul. I was mostly sick to death of reading Bangels in particular go on about how Spike was a rapist and therefore unfit for a love interest and that the fans of Spuffy were rapist apologists or lovers! I was pointing out that Angel was guilty of rape too in the eyes of the law. (This is a sensitive issue with me because I am very much Spuffy and having overcome rape in my own life I resent anyone saying I condone rape or rapists!). The one point everyone kept coming back to was that the Bangel sex was okay because Buffy wanted it (missing my point about the legal definition counting) and/or that human laws couldn't be applied to a vampire. You know, if that is so then you can't call Spike a rapist either as he was a soulless vampire when SR happened! I just figured you can't hold it against one and not the other. The age DOES matter then, at least for the legal definition of rape. Evidently the State of California seems to feel that a girl cannot give mature, informed consent until 18. They may well be wrong but that is still the law.
Sorry for the rant there at the end. I really don't care about the age difference, I simply never bought the "love" story of Bangel at all. It was forced and did not reflect real love of two people who know each other and care for one another in a committed way. Pure fantasy of the kind that leads to many a young marriage and divorce in the real world.
Kathleen
Mar 13 2010 01:26 am #99slaymesoftly
Moderator
Wise words, Kathleen. I suspect here, though, you are pretty much preaching to the choir. :)
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Mar 13 2010 02:06 pm #100ladycat173
Guest
Amen, Pffiefferpack.
I've always thought it would be great to have Buffy (on tv ) realize that she held up Angel as her true love and soulmate had nothing to do with them at all but with her feeling guilt over the deaths caused . She felt like it had to be more than a teenage infatuation to justify all those deaths.
If he hadn't lost his soul , she would've broken up with him and moved on with no lingering aftereffects (except maybe the wish to not date such a controlling guy) by senior year at the latest.
She wouldn't have then dated parker and moved so fast because of Angel pushing her about normal and then wouldn't have been with the cardboard cutout of Angel.
her guilt wasn't helped by Angel's whole it wasn't me schtick. Which is basically a refusal to take responsibility for his actions.
I've always thought it would be great to have Buffy (on tv ) realize that she held up Angel as her true love and soulmate had nothing to do with them at all but with her feeling guilt over the deaths caused . She felt like it had to be more than a teenage infatuation to justify all those deaths.
If he hadn't lost his soul , she would've broken up with him and moved on with no lingering aftereffects (except maybe the wish to not date such a controlling guy) by senior year at the latest.
She wouldn't have then dated parker and moved so fast because of Angel pushing her about normal and then wouldn't have been with the cardboard cutout of Angel.
her guilt wasn't helped by Angel's whole it wasn't me schtick. Which is basically a refusal to take responsibility for his actions.
Good Post - Pffiefferpack and Guest (guest you should think about posting your name at bottom)
Thanks to all who are posting their thoughts -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
This was taken from Moscow Watcher lj - her letter to Scott Allie - I am posting it here since I think it reflects on how Spuffy fans feel about much that is going on with the comic book season - He has decided not to do anymore Q&A for this season.
Scott Allie's Letter
A couple of days ago I wrote a letter to Scott Allie, editor-in-chief of "Dark Horse" and linked him to my review of #33. I wanted him to know that a part of the fandom isn't happy with current developments and future retcons; and I wanted him to know that the majority of Spuffies I know don't have hard feelings towards him personally, but are sad and upset with the story itself. I also thanked him for his promise (in latest Q&As) that Buffy/Spike relationship will be treated with respect.
Mr. Allie replied quickly. He read my review and, apparently, he read some of the comments, so his displeasure with Spike and Spuffy fans is understandable. Anyway I asked him if I could post his letter and he gave me the permission. So, here it is. Mr. Allie hopes that what happens to Buffy and Spike in the upcoming issues will ring true to their characters. I'll try to be hopeful too.
Hey Elena—As Moscow Watcher, I thought you were one of my harsher critics, no? Anyway, I don't assume all the Spike fans hate me—I hope I'm totally irrelevant to the majority of them. Honest, that is the proper attitude to an editor.
I read most of your review, but this is what puzzles me in fandom—in this email to me, you thank me "for the promise that Buffy/Spike relationship won't be trampled down completely." And you seem pretty sincere in that. But you assume that the reasons are strictly commercial. In my mind, it'd be very cynical of us if that were true, and very cynical of you to assume that of us, unless we've given you really good reason to think that. But my puzzlement is this—some of his dedicated readers and fans assume the worst about Joss, and about all of us working with him. But have you ever considered that Joss treats Angel and Spike the way he does because he thinks it's truthful? That Angel and Buffy have a certain kind of relationship, and that Spike and Buffy have another kind, two different relationships that evolve over time, but come from some basis in human experience. Why assume, as you seem to, that the creative choices Joss makes come from commercial choices made to sell more comics; or as a few seem to think, that it stems from cruelty, or from a lack of understanding of his own characters? Maybe this is just the story Joss wants to tell. If you've stuck with him and his characters this long, aren't you open to that possibility?
That's the thing I understand the least in fandom—assuming bad motivation in people you don't know. The things that've been said about me, sheesh. (I'm reminded of the woman who told me I mustn't be a father if I thought Angel was more concerned about Buffy than Connor.) But it's worse when it's Joss—you guys owe me nothing, I've never done anything to earn your respect. But Joss? Does he really deserve to be reduced to such petty agendas?
The thing is, I don't think fans mean it the way it comes across. I think the internet has bred a kind of dialogue among fans where it seems perfectly acceptable, reasonable, and normal to infer all these motivations, weaknesses, and other failings on strangers. And it's not. It's bizarre, it's unfair, and it's judgmental. And it's onesided, because you know Joss isn't sitting around thinking about why Elena does her job the way she does.
Certainly not limited to Buffy fandom—I see Hellboy fans assuming the worst of Mike Mignola all the time. But when I read your email, I thought, Is this really the same Moscow Watcher I think it is ...? Yeah, you're willing to say we write comics that make no sense because we know and care so little about story that we'll try anything to sell more copies. You're willing to say that I'll say anything on a message board to trick you into buying more comics—but you're polite and gracious enough in the rest of the email that I couldn't connect you with the general tone of the message board posts I've seen from you. And then I read your review, and thought, Oh yeah, I guess that's her ...
I can fully appreciate your disappointment in Season 8, a reader's disappointment in any story. If you've ever been involved in the shipper wars, as they're called, then it's gotta be disappointing to see Angel in a significant role that Spike just as easily could have filled. If you find the story preposterous, out of character, then we've truly let you down there. But don't assume the worst about the people working on this stuff. We are all dedicated, hard working people who love the characters and want to get the best, truest stories out there. And we think we've got it here—but of course not everyone will agree. It's never been my intention to mock and insult Spuffy fans, even if I made some carelessly sarcastic comments before I understood the real rift in the fandom. I haven't seen you guys being mocked, but I believe what you tell me. And you shouldn't be indirectly or generally mocked and insulted for your tastes, which is what I think has gone on, and what I've been guilty of. But I think you should twice about using the anonymity of message boards and chatrooms to mock and insult the people doing the work.
I hope enough of the Spuffy fans stick around through the end of the thing, if only because I'll be curious to hear what you think about it. And that's not meant as a carrot—Joss has said that Spike will appear, although I think your paraphrasing of him in your review is not entirely accurate—THAT certainly doesn't happen... ; ) So you know Spike will be in Buffy's proximity. As with all of this, I just hope what happens rings true with you, true to their characters. That's what we're shooting for, in our imperfect, human ways.
Peace,
Scott
What can I say? I'll stick around through the end, because I love Buffy, because I'm curious, because I need my daily dose of Buffyverse, be it comics, fanfics, or rewatching old episodes. I know that eventually my heart will be broken. But it's mandatory for a BtVS fan.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I read moscow's post and his response, and sorry not impressed. It seems we aren't allowed to criticize him or Joss? Wow. Joss is not a sacred cow Scott. And Scott Aliie has constantly bashed Spike. Didn't he say once, "Would you let your sister date Spike?" And didn't he call Spike a rapist? Not an attempted rapist, but a rapist? It's a miracle that any Spike/Spuffy fans are still reading this. Like I said if my friend wasn't lending me the comics, I would not be reading at all. I don't understand from a business viewpoint why they'd want to piss off and alieanate a BIG % of fandom...let's face it Spike/Spuffy fans are a huge part of this fandom,. It doesn't make sense to me business wise, at least. :shrug:
And this... I hope enough of the Spuffy fans stick around through the end of the thing, if only because I'll be curious to hear what you think about it. And that's not meant as a carrot- Joss has said that Spike will appear...So you know Spike wil be in Buffy's proximity. In other words ...Spuffies you're not getting anything at all Spuffy wise, but stick around and keep buying our comics...that's how I see it anyway. I could be wrong, cause I don't think Allie is the most truthful person.I guess we'll see. I agree with you nmcil..our hearts will most probably be broken. :( But that is par for the course.
And this... I hope enough of the Spuffy fans stick around through the end of the thing, if only because I'll be curious to hear what you think about it. And that's not meant as a carrot- Joss has said that Spike will appear...So you know Spike wil be in Buffy's proximity. In other words ...Spuffies you're not getting anything at all Spuffy wise, but stick around and keep buying our comics...that's how I see it anyway. I could be wrong, cause I don't think Allie is the most truthful person.I guess we'll see. I agree with you nmcil..our hearts will most probably be broken. :( But that is par for the course.
Mar 14 2010 12:15 am #104ladycat713
Guest
Maybe they should be asking if they'd let thier sister date Angel or Willow-both successful rapists. Or Buffy an unremorseful abuser and user .
Spike felt guilt and took responsibility for his actions , something Angel , Willow and Buffy seems to have problems with.
Spike felt guilt and took responsibility for his actions , something Angel , Willow and Buffy seems to have problems with.
Word, ladycat...
And I saw the perfect answer to...
"Would you let your sister date Spike?"
I think the better question is , " Would you want your sister to date a guy who will lose his soul because he loves her? Or would you want her to date the guy who loves her so much he'll earn his soul back?" PERFECT ANSWER! Wish I could remember where I saw it. :)
Damn I hate hypocrites..and sanctimonious hypocrites make me wanna smack someone.
And I saw the perfect answer to...
"Would you let your sister date Spike?"
I think the better question is , " Would you want your sister to date a guy who will lose his soul because he loves her? Or would you want her to date the guy who loves her so much he'll earn his soul back?" PERFECT ANSWER! Wish I could remember where I saw it. :)
Damn I hate hypocrites..and sanctimonious hypocrites make me wanna smack someone.
Scott Allie, as was said during the Civil War, did a big skedaddle - I don't want to be unjust or catty - perhaps he is just too busy or he genuinely feels that the Q&A's are just making for to much rancor between fans - or shippers. We will all just have to wait -
I was that this had not be dragged out so long - by this time it has almost reached the "who cares" - kind of like when you read a very good Spuffy story but the writer has put in too many sex scenes and the reader ends up just skipping them and wanting to get to the story.
I was that this had not be dragged out so long - by this time it has almost reached the "who cares" - kind of like when you read a very good Spuffy story but the writer has put in too many sex scenes and the reader ends up just skipping them and wanting to get to the story.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
The problem is that alot of the rancor was caused by his very biased answers in those Q&As. He said alot of things that got people really angry. But anyway yeah, we'll just have to wait and see. And I just looked it up in Wikipedia and the first comic came out in March 2007, that's 3 yrs. Definitely dragged out for too long. Many people are at " who cares" I think.
And I read that the Twilight arc ends in May, then it'll be a 2 month hiatus and the Riley thing in August. so Joss won't start til Sep. So if we go by that,and one issue comes out a month, it'll be over in Jan.2011. My God, I want it to be over already. :nod:
And I doubt I'll do S9.
And I read that the Twilight arc ends in May, then it'll be a 2 month hiatus and the Riley thing in August. so Joss won't start til Sep. So if we go by that,and one issue comes out a month, it'll be over in Jan.2011. My God, I want it to be over already. :nod:
And I doubt I'll do S9.
Mar 14 2010 03:44 am #108coalitiongirl
Quinara wrote a response to Allie's response. It's pretty courteous compared to the other stuff we post, and I wonder what he'll write in return....I know I'll probably be keeping up with them in S9, but not investing much energy into them. Kind of like the never-ending fanfic that you still keep reading, no matter how much you don't like it, because you've been reading it for so long that it seems like a shame not to follow it to the end. (I have stopped doing this. But I still have some vague faith that the man who gave us Buffy won't completely self-destruct, and I continue out of nothing but misplaced loyalty.)
I certainly won't be liking it, though. :D Fanfic is my Buffy!sequel of choice.
Would I want Spike to date my sister? No-I want him for myself. lol
~ Niori ~
Good Grief - we have to go through a Riley Thing off 2 months and not get started on the final resolution until September - this is crazy - taking this long.
Thank goodness that we have all the wonderful Spuffy writers to pay tribute to the TV series - I spent so much money on all these comic books, and while I can't say that I did not enjoy reading them, I kept waiting for what I would consider important and the heart of the Buffyverse that was presented on TV - an exploration of the characters and how the powerful emotions drive their lives. These comics just never seem to get there - I think I am just not the right kind of reader for the comic book format. I just got Civil War from our library - I want to see what this series is like.
We should probably take any further discussions on the comic book over to that thread -
But for Spuffy Fans, which we know is the larger fans group, the comments about Angel being like home a Spike like a vacation cabin (sorry for the paraphrase). The real problem that many readers have is how the character development from the last of the TV series seems to have dropped off - two issues seems very short space to tell the readers what happened in LA to push Angel/Angelus into his Twilight persona. Angel/Angelus is still so wrapped up with all that went down with his utterly insane idea, IMO, to take on The Circel of the Black Thorn, he has all this friends and people who followed him out of love and loyalty to his cause and now he shows up as Twilight.
Here is the next Question -
Does Buffy need another cycle of emotional meltdown and/or a serious loss of a very close loved one to push her into finally starting her Grown Up life - and by that I mean her continued search for "escape routes" from being a slayer and the head of this group? The main theme, that I can make out regarding Buffy in the comic books, is her continued sense of disconnection and need to share her life and love with another person. Plus she apparently is missing all the great sex she had with Spike, thus we have Satsu and her fancy that she was in love with Xander.
Thank goodness that we have all the wonderful Spuffy writers to pay tribute to the TV series - I spent so much money on all these comic books, and while I can't say that I did not enjoy reading them, I kept waiting for what I would consider important and the heart of the Buffyverse that was presented on TV - an exploration of the characters and how the powerful emotions drive their lives. These comics just never seem to get there - I think I am just not the right kind of reader for the comic book format. I just got Civil War from our library - I want to see what this series is like.
We should probably take any further discussions on the comic book over to that thread -
But for Spuffy Fans, which we know is the larger fans group, the comments about Angel being like home a Spike like a vacation cabin (sorry for the paraphrase). The real problem that many readers have is how the character development from the last of the TV series seems to have dropped off - two issues seems very short space to tell the readers what happened in LA to push Angel/Angelus into his Twilight persona. Angel/Angelus is still so wrapped up with all that went down with his utterly insane idea, IMO, to take on The Circel of the Black Thorn, he has all this friends and people who followed him out of love and loyalty to his cause and now he shows up as Twilight.
Here is the next Question -
Does Buffy need another cycle of emotional meltdown and/or a serious loss of a very close loved one to push her into finally starting her Grown Up life - and by that I mean her continued search for "escape routes" from being a slayer and the head of this group? The main theme, that I can make out regarding Buffy in the comic books, is her continued sense of disconnection and need to share her life and love with another person. Plus she apparently is missing all the great sex she had with Spike, thus we have Satsu and her fancy that she was in love with Xander.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 16 2010 03:22 am #111Spikez_tart
Riley thing in August - oh no, no, no, no, no. I think I'd rather read two months of Parker.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 16 2010 03:59 am #112coalitiongirl
I'm thinking Parker Abrams and Holden Webster do an issue together- best comics ever! :D
And let's throw in Scott whatever the hell his name was. That would be Pardenott..my new OT3! :D
Seriously, who the frak wants to read about Riley? I'd rather poke my eyes out with a spork.
Seriously, who the frak wants to read about Riley? I'd rather poke my eyes out with a spork.
Mar 16 2010 05:41 am #114coalitiongirl
Actually, Riley back in South America might have been kind of interesting- outside of the BtVS storyline, though. Riley might've been an great hero-type character in a different, inferior show.:D
This is why Scott Allie pissed off the readers and fans - If I recall correctly, SA stated in one of his Q&A's that Riley's part in the season so minor and that he would not be be getting much space in the concluding phase of the season.
I suggest that anymore of the SA should be moved over to the comic book topic -
I suggest that anymore of the SA should be moved over to the comic book topic -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 17 2010 02:09 am #116Spikez_tart
Parker Abrams and Holden Webster - yeah. I can see Webs giving Parker a couple hundred hours on the couch. Too bad Buffy dusted him. If he had lived, he could have been the vamp shrink to the demon community. Lots of story potential there.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jeanty comment on how the Buffyverse characters are now being treated as adults.
CA: Some fans have also responded very strongly to the news simply because a beloved character has been turned into a villain. When the full story comes out, do you think that some of those concerns will be assuaged?
GJ: That's not a yes or no question. Buffy fans had to deal with Angelus, twice, so the fact that Angel is perceived as the bad guy in Season 8 wont come as a shock. Season 8, just like all the past seasons, continues to have these characters grow and evolve. If Season 8 had just done generic stories I think the some of the fans would have jumped ship a while ago. I think this season especially is one of growth far beyond what we've seen before. These characters are now represented as adults in extraordinary circumstances. By the end of Season 8 I think people are going to be demanding Season 9 because of where Season 8 is going to leave the Scoobys.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Ran across this posted by one of the stronger Bangel supporters - and it was like a big ugly punch reality check - Does this suggest that the theory from many Spuffy fans had it all wrong, that JW did not create the cemetery scene as a tribute to the early Bangel story - that what he was really doing was setting up Buffy-Angel Forever as the Prime Couple, that he always intended for this love relationship to speak for the entire series? Did the Bangels have it right all along? Did the creation of the Spike-Buffy Transformation Cycle serve primarily as a vehicle to use Spike and to take advantage of the great interpretation and performance that James Marsters brought to the series? It has been a long time since I watched the comments but this seems like a strong and definitive statement about the characters and the love relationships.
I know that it is nonsense on my part to give this much importance and value, after all The Buffyverse was only a TV series - but I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what the series was trying to accomplish - what the creative staff and Joss Whedon were conveying to the viewers. Now, after all that has happened in these last couple of issues, I have to admit that I am very confused about what was shown in the series regarding the Spuffy story. What I saw on the screen seemed to clearly show that Buffy loved Spike and that their cycle was a story of great power and spoke to the human condition and what humans could achieve and find in themselves - to be those "better and good" men and woman, to make the choices to transformer ourselves from the ugly and dark creatures that live within each of us. That we can and must demand that we live from the Good and Better side as much as possible - we will always slide back into the darkness, but that our fight is to try not to go there.
What was Buffy and Spike, were the a real and honest story? Because they sure felt like the real thing to me. Were the viewers, with all their passion and love and respect for the characters adding so much to the creation that we made something new? If Buffy and Angel were indeed in his mind "unstoppable and immortal" how are we to interpret the Buffy-Spike story with all its power and complexity. To me that story was so much more powerful and interesting, it was a story about real people and about the real struggles and living in the real, all the ugly dark but also with all the great things that can happen if we just keep fighting toward a better life.
Perhaps some of you have better information on where he might stand now - is there more current statements that shed a different light on this statement. I have read such a different description of the Buffy-Angel relationship that are attributed to Joss Whedon - but now, I don't know what to make of anything, and frankly I am one very confused Buffyverse fan now.
I wonder if any of these DarkHorse people and Joss Whedon realize just how much damaged they are doing to their fan base - I know that there have to many other fans that are feeling just as confused and disappointed as I am.
"Buffy and Angel's story I admit is not over. I wanted to say that clearly without like, dismissing the importance of Spike in Buffy's life. It was hard to find that fine line in Chosen. Buffy and Angel's love, well, it's unstoppable and immortal." -Joss Whedon
[ edited by CrystalSC on 2010-04-08 19:22 ]
I know that it is nonsense on my part to give this much importance and value, after all The Buffyverse was only a TV series - but I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what the series was trying to accomplish - what the creative staff and Joss Whedon were conveying to the viewers. Now, after all that has happened in these last couple of issues, I have to admit that I am very confused about what was shown in the series regarding the Spuffy story. What I saw on the screen seemed to clearly show that Buffy loved Spike and that their cycle was a story of great power and spoke to the human condition and what humans could achieve and find in themselves - to be those "better and good" men and woman, to make the choices to transformer ourselves from the ugly and dark creatures that live within each of us. That we can and must demand that we live from the Good and Better side as much as possible - we will always slide back into the darkness, but that our fight is to try not to go there.
What was Buffy and Spike, were the a real and honest story? Because they sure felt like the real thing to me. Were the viewers, with all their passion and love and respect for the characters adding so much to the creation that we made something new? If Buffy and Angel were indeed in his mind "unstoppable and immortal" how are we to interpret the Buffy-Spike story with all its power and complexity. To me that story was so much more powerful and interesting, it was a story about real people and about the real struggles and living in the real, all the ugly dark but also with all the great things that can happen if we just keep fighting toward a better life.
Perhaps some of you have better information on where he might stand now - is there more current statements that shed a different light on this statement. I have read such a different description of the Buffy-Angel relationship that are attributed to Joss Whedon - but now, I don't know what to make of anything, and frankly I am one very confused Buffyverse fan now.
I wonder if any of these DarkHorse people and Joss Whedon realize just how much damaged they are doing to their fan base - I know that there have to many other fans that are feeling just as confused and disappointed as I am.
"Buffy and Angel's story I admit is not over. I wanted to say that clearly without like, dismissing the importance of Spike in Buffy's life. It was hard to find that fine line in Chosen. Buffy and Angel's love, well, it's unstoppable and immortal." -Joss Whedon
[ edited by CrystalSC on 2010-04-08 19:22 ]
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 09 2010 06:38 am #119coalitiongirl
I wasn't there for it...
But I imagine that the week after Seeing Red was hell for fans. (As were the following weeks)
Joss has never faltered because of dissatisfaction from the fans, but he's also never ceased to deliver in the end. (I do remember Joss saying that that scene was a shoutout to Bangel fans, that's all. I highly doubt that he'd planned this all along.) S7's Bangel meeting was never taken as anything more since the two had so clearly moved on. And the Bangel fans who cling to it are hanging on because they had no other basis.
Do they now? Maybe. Angel is here, in the story. It's all kind of warped and silly, but he IS present.
Can they say that he's more important to Buffy than Spike is?
No. For god's sake, she doesn't even know that Spike's alive!
To me, this seems like a Bangel shipper feeling validated. They're going to see what they're going to see, and if the last three seasons didn't convince them of it, then they'll never change their minds. I find the idea of shipping Bangel absurd at this point. (I even mentioned the shipping wars to a RL friend today. She was confused. "People still ship Buffy and Angel together?" Exactly. :D) But I guess that if you stuck by them for this long, even child!porn will convince you of your OTP's inherent superiority.
Personally, I love the fact that my OTP aren't soulmates. I love that they've gotten together against all odds. That's what makes Spuffy so compelling. :)
Btw, I found this thread a while back and bookmarked it. It has random anti-Bangel quotes from the writers, etc, if you scroll down. (The rest is a bit too much for my tastes, but it does sometimes make me laugh.)
But I imagine that the week after Seeing Red was hell for fans. (As were the following weeks)
Joss has never faltered because of dissatisfaction from the fans, but he's also never ceased to deliver in the end. (I do remember Joss saying that that scene was a shoutout to Bangel fans, that's all. I highly doubt that he'd planned this all along.) S7's Bangel meeting was never taken as anything more since the two had so clearly moved on. And the Bangel fans who cling to it are hanging on because they had no other basis.
Do they now? Maybe. Angel is here, in the story. It's all kind of warped and silly, but he IS present.
Can they say that he's more important to Buffy than Spike is?
No. For god's sake, she doesn't even know that Spike's alive!
To me, this seems like a Bangel shipper feeling validated. They're going to see what they're going to see, and if the last three seasons didn't convince them of it, then they'll never change their minds. I find the idea of shipping Bangel absurd at this point. (I even mentioned the shipping wars to a RL friend today. She was confused. "People still ship Buffy and Angel together?" Exactly. :D) But I guess that if you stuck by them for this long, even child!porn will convince you of your OTP's inherent superiority.
Personally, I love the fact that my OTP aren't soulmates. I love that they've gotten together against all odds. That's what makes Spuffy so compelling. :)
Btw, I found this thread a while back and bookmarked it. It has random anti-Bangel quotes from the writers, etc, if you scroll down. (The rest is a bit too much for my tastes, but it does sometimes make me laugh.)
thanks for the link - sometimes you just run across great things - do you remember that site with all those great e-cards and parody reviews that had a link posted a while back? That was a fun site. And someone actually gave me link info straight away when I asked about the song Anya sings in "Selfless." - I love that song.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
That link has made up for the tramua of following all your other ones Coalitongirl! Thank you! I haven't laughed so hard in ages!
Oh, and I officaly love David- I love that Angel is one of the biggest Bangel is over people.
Oh, and I officaly love David- I love that Angel is one of the biggest Bangel is over people.
~ Niori ~
I am bringing this over here because I think it would make for a good general discussion about Buffy and Angel and the series - while it does relate to the potential happenings with the comic book season and the future of the Buffyverse, it also relates to the early series and the theme of Buffy and her possible self-healing.
I've been thinking about this, trying to make a logical connection, and reading a simple, very short post, it now is starting to make sense - from the ending of the last issue to the ending of this one and the title of the coming issue and if I my speculation is right, the Centaur Greek and Roman mythic connection.
Tantric Sex - Buffy becoming a Goddess, the new evolution, the spiritual next ladder step of metaphysics, and the potentially insane Angel - Now the real question is if this becomes an "Alice Through the Looking Glass" conversion world. Will we have a treatment that follows the philosophy behind "Tantric Sex" and Buffy plays the role of Chiron to a temporary ill Angel, or Chiron to herself. Buffy taking on the role of self-healer would be the resolution that I have wanted for a very long time - Buffy as healer to Angel would also fit the philosophical system and allow for yet another return of Angel as a viable character. However, how many times can Angel be cleansed and not become a character open to ridicule, so Angel will probably become in changed entity after this. But, and this is the Big Question, will Joss Whedon distort the underlying power of change and balance of the Tantric philosophy? or will we have a combination and the meeting of East and West - with Buffy Goddess/Self-Healer/ and the Chiron-Prometheus-Heracles myth.
If this is Joss Whedon's revisit of the unfinished story of Buffy-Angel Love Unstoppable and Immortal it also makes perfect sense - because he can now either bring his philosophy behind the use of this teenage innocent Buffy, which if I am correct he has never given any serious and in depth explanation for. If I am wrong about this point, PLEASE someone correct me. The only thing that I know of regarding his answer to the question is that he did not consider that the sexual consummation and their love relationship as a bad thing - that Buffy and Angel did not do anything wrong. If you take the do all, accept everything, cleanse and rid yourself of the negative concepts of sex and love, this very different world view of the history of the Western World separation of the sexual force and the corruption from the religious interpretation, than it would indeed validate Buffy-Angel Forever. It would go with his statements about people being judgmental and having a narrow field of vision.
It will be extremely interesting to see if the Tantric Sex treatment will come into play in his resolution of this season. A great many of the elements for a combination of both systems are in the tale of this season. But what we are seeing, unless it is all smoke and mirrors and red herrings, is a conversion of what the expected transformation of Tantric Sexual philosophy. Having Dawn once again reference the Centaurette and seeing the severed head of what appears to be the severed head of Andrew, another of the characters that has been used with symbols of sacrifice and heroic classic super hero stories. Plus Warren again brings in the reference to the Nerds and their "we will be as Gods" (paraphrase).
What I don't like about this, is how the use of comic book format and genre was used in the treatment - To me it has been very confusing and not coming from the Comic Book readership I would have much preferred a more traditional literary form.
Of course if I am totally wrong about what might be the underlying major themes than I am back to WTF -
If you visit other LJ that are discussing the comic book season, I wondered if bringing up a discussion on the potential connection to Tantric Sex theory and the Chiron-Prometheus -Heracles would be of interest to other readers. This is the only thing that I can make to work with what we have been presented thus far and with the history of Buffy, Angel and the re-visitation and unfinished story that Joss Whedon spoke to, I believe it was in the "Chosen" commentary.
A Buffy heals an insane Angel or a sick world - or we could go the implications of Black Kali let loose upon the world with a New Big Bad on a global scale or this Omniverse that Giles referenced - an inter-dimensional world. Whatever the hell does happened, If the theme of moral relativism as applied via Twangel is not seriously addressed than this all, IMO, can easily fall into the category of simple entertainment - the kind of story or film that we watch and enjoy for the moment, but that once you are finished with the book or step out of the theater, it no longer has any importance. Which would be such a pity, as the TV series had such a powerful connection that we are still interested in the Buffyverse.
Personally, I HATE the idea of Buffy being still connected with Angel/Angelus and the Idea that comes out of Giles' mouth that Angel is the best of his kind makes me want to puke - That Angel was converted from the completely evil bastard that was Angelus, that life brought him to the Gypsy tribe and his curse for all that evil is being turned into a reward feels so wrong to me - everything about that potential treatment and resolution is so wrong. Guess I am in that camp of narrow minded judge mental people, because I really hate that scenario. The philosophy behind Tantric Sex if profound but the twisting and pulling that we have to apply to Angel/Angelus and his curse is something that I would have a very hard times accepting.
DarkHorse and Joss Whedon should seriously considered how this will effect their total fan base - I have already cut down what I spend with this issue and if they are really going to put the mantle of "Prime Series Couple" on Bangel, that is something that I have absolutely no interest in.
I've been thinking about this, trying to make a logical connection, and reading a simple, very short post, it now is starting to make sense - from the ending of the last issue to the ending of this one and the title of the coming issue and if I my speculation is right, the Centaur Greek and Roman mythic connection.
Tantric Sex - Buffy becoming a Goddess, the new evolution, the spiritual next ladder step of metaphysics, and the potentially insane Angel - Now the real question is if this becomes an "Alice Through the Looking Glass" conversion world. Will we have a treatment that follows the philosophy behind "Tantric Sex" and Buffy plays the role of Chiron to a temporary ill Angel, or Chiron to herself. Buffy taking on the role of self-healer would be the resolution that I have wanted for a very long time - Buffy as healer to Angel would also fit the philosophical system and allow for yet another return of Angel as a viable character. However, how many times can Angel be cleansed and not become a character open to ridicule, so Angel will probably become in changed entity after this. But, and this is the Big Question, will Joss Whedon distort the underlying power of change and balance of the Tantric philosophy? or will we have a combination and the meeting of East and West - with Buffy Goddess/Self-Healer/ and the Chiron-Prometheus-Heracles myth.
If this is Joss Whedon's revisit of the unfinished story of Buffy-Angel Love Unstoppable and Immortal it also makes perfect sense - because he can now either bring his philosophy behind the use of this teenage innocent Buffy, which if I am correct he has never given any serious and in depth explanation for. If I am wrong about this point, PLEASE someone correct me. The only thing that I know of regarding his answer to the question is that he did not consider that the sexual consummation and their love relationship as a bad thing - that Buffy and Angel did not do anything wrong. If you take the do all, accept everything, cleanse and rid yourself of the negative concepts of sex and love, this very different world view of the history of the Western World separation of the sexual force and the corruption from the religious interpretation, than it would indeed validate Buffy-Angel Forever. It would go with his statements about people being judgmental and having a narrow field of vision.
It will be extremely interesting to see if the Tantric Sex treatment will come into play in his resolution of this season. A great many of the elements for a combination of both systems are in the tale of this season. But what we are seeing, unless it is all smoke and mirrors and red herrings, is a conversion of what the expected transformation of Tantric Sexual philosophy. Having Dawn once again reference the Centaurette and seeing the severed head of what appears to be the severed head of Andrew, another of the characters that has been used with symbols of sacrifice and heroic classic super hero stories. Plus Warren again brings in the reference to the Nerds and their "we will be as Gods" (paraphrase).
What I don't like about this, is how the use of comic book format and genre was used in the treatment - To me it has been very confusing and not coming from the Comic Book readership I would have much preferred a more traditional literary form.
Of course if I am totally wrong about what might be the underlying major themes than I am back to WTF -
If you visit other LJ that are discussing the comic book season, I wondered if bringing up a discussion on the potential connection to Tantric Sex theory and the Chiron-Prometheus -Heracles would be of interest to other readers. This is the only thing that I can make to work with what we have been presented thus far and with the history of Buffy, Angel and the re-visitation and unfinished story that Joss Whedon spoke to, I believe it was in the "Chosen" commentary.
A Buffy heals an insane Angel or a sick world - or we could go the implications of Black Kali let loose upon the world with a New Big Bad on a global scale or this Omniverse that Giles referenced - an inter-dimensional world. Whatever the hell does happened, If the theme of moral relativism as applied via Twangel is not seriously addressed than this all, IMO, can easily fall into the category of simple entertainment - the kind of story or film that we watch and enjoy for the moment, but that once you are finished with the book or step out of the theater, it no longer has any importance. Which would be such a pity, as the TV series had such a powerful connection that we are still interested in the Buffyverse.
Personally, I HATE the idea of Buffy being still connected with Angel/Angelus and the Idea that comes out of Giles' mouth that Angel is the best of his kind makes me want to puke - That Angel was converted from the completely evil bastard that was Angelus, that life brought him to the Gypsy tribe and his curse for all that evil is being turned into a reward feels so wrong to me - everything about that potential treatment and resolution is so wrong. Guess I am in that camp of narrow minded judge mental people, because I really hate that scenario. The philosophy behind Tantric Sex if profound but the twisting and pulling that we have to apply to Angel/Angelus and his curse is something that I would have a very hard times accepting.
DarkHorse and Joss Whedon should seriously considered how this will effect their total fan base - I have already cut down what I spend with this issue and if they are really going to put the mantle of "Prime Series Couple" on Bangel, that is something that I have absolutely no interest in.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 09 2010 11:46 pm #123Spikez_tart
NMC - love your Chiron theory. It ties in very nicely with my theory re Buffy = Aenead rewrite (see previous post It's all Greek to Me under episode discussion.) Chiron is a centaur who is known for his kindness (not exactly a Buffy trait) and for his skill in medicine. One of his pupils was Achilles (Angel) and he feeds Achilles lion guts, wild pigs and the marrow of she-wolves. Somehow Joss left out the marrow of she-wolves part.
The Chiron story indicates a possible future path for Buffy. Chiron is unable to heal himself and ends up giving up immortality. So, Buffy "heals" Angel, (of what?), is made sick or damaged herself and gives up either her goddess status or immortality if she has that. Angel is healed, keeps his immortality? and loses Buffy again to old age or death? (It's never been indicated, but it's possible that Slayers, if they aren't outright killed, could have immortality or an extremely long life span. None have lived long enough to find out, but the Guardian women lived a long, long time.)
Is the tantric sex supposed to be the healing method? Because barf. Also Barf to Buffy becoming a goddess. That is just so pretentious. Maybe if she was the Kali goddess of death and darkness it would be bearable.
Okay - how does Spike fit into this picture?
The Chiron story indicates a possible future path for Buffy. Chiron is unable to heal himself and ends up giving up immortality. So, Buffy "heals" Angel, (of what?), is made sick or damaged herself and gives up either her goddess status or immortality if she has that. Angel is healed, keeps his immortality? and loses Buffy again to old age or death? (It's never been indicated, but it's possible that Slayers, if they aren't outright killed, could have immortality or an extremely long life span. None have lived long enough to find out, but the Guardian women lived a long, long time.)
Is the tantric sex supposed to be the healing method? Because barf. Also Barf to Buffy becoming a goddess. That is just so pretentious. Maybe if she was the Kali goddess of death and darkness it would be bearable.
Okay - how does Spike fit into this picture?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
The Tantric Sex philosophy is concerned with creating a healthy balance of all aspect of your being, and sexual force is one of the fundamental forces. It is very complex and a profound way of using sexual act to go pass the negativity that can be associated with the sexual force and instead channel the human body into high levels of consciousness and to see all the power and beauty that is the reality of the self. It is associated with healing because it takes the person beyond the restriction and narrow understanding into a total acceptance and knowledge of the inherent powers. Pity that Buffy never tried Trantic Sex with Spike, she would have been a much better and happier woman - they both would still be together sharing their lives in bliss of each other and as one. Of course this is like the most base attempt to describe the system - I only just started reading about it yesterday.
My speculation about the Dawn-Centaur connection is that Chiron, the exceptional and highest most developed and civilized of all the Centaurs and immortal would now fit into this very strange direction that they have taken Buffy and the Buffyverse. And boy, do I loathe the idea that Angel could be considered as the best of his kind - but we will have to see if Giles has lost his mind or is being influenced by a third party. Chiron the healer could be the counterpart symbol of Dawn Centaur/Centaurette that is the symbol for healing and transformation which is what I think we are seeing with all the cosmic sex - I am fairly certain that this is what was intended with all the cosmic sex especially with the inclusion of what looks like a cheetah or some kind of great cat - part of the metaphors within the Tantric Sexual theory.
Chiron and sacrifice comes in with the myth of the accidental wounding of the immortal Chiron by Herakles who wounds him with a stray arrow while in a fight. However, since Chiron is immortal, and the wound was caused by the arrow that has been dipped and coated with the blood of the Hydra which will cause any wound to never heal. Chiron is now in perpetual pain but with no possibility of release by death. Eventually Chiron will sacrifice his immortal life in exchange for the life and release of Prometheus who can only escape his perpetual punishment if any immortal being will offer the exchange of their immortal life, go into Tartarus and live and die there.
How could this possibly work with this strange direction that has taken over the Buffyverse. Several ways, and the one I favor simply because I don't like giving Angel such a high status and reward. Someone very close to Buffy will be damaged with horrible consequences and only one life for another will solve the problem - either Dawn, maybe Andrew or now Spike will take on the sacrificial role and save the world or person. Another scenario, one that fits easier with what has been presented in the last two issue is that Angel is indeed gone insane or is poisoned or whatever, and Buffy will be the his road to salvation and in the process heal not only Angel but heal her own psychic wounds for her early life passion and love for him. This is actually what I want more than anything, for Buffy is just get over him and all the damn emotional baggage that she still carriers. With those Hippos that were shown as part of the cosmic sex, and another I totally hate is that Buffy will end up being pregnant by some mystical intervention i.e., Angel being controlled or influenced. The Hippo however could also be connected with the evil and destructive symbol of Seth. The last of my current speculation scenario is that because of a strange change of words used by Willow in the Giles-Willow discussion, is that Willow will betray, through good intentions Buffy. This however is already in play with Twangel as his justification for taking part in the killing and destruction against Buffy and all her Slayers.
There are many ways that this Tantric-Centaur could possibly work. Added to all this is a female Centaur that ends up killing herself - forget the reason - I will have to find that page again - Dawn committing suicide over Xander of something else? possible. For some reason, the theme of either Dawn or Andrew dying as a sacrifice or from some mistaken intention to do a brave heroic act.
Like I said, a lot of things can work with this combination.
My speculation about the Dawn-Centaur connection is that Chiron, the exceptional and highest most developed and civilized of all the Centaurs and immortal would now fit into this very strange direction that they have taken Buffy and the Buffyverse. And boy, do I loathe the idea that Angel could be considered as the best of his kind - but we will have to see if Giles has lost his mind or is being influenced by a third party. Chiron the healer could be the counterpart symbol of Dawn Centaur/Centaurette that is the symbol for healing and transformation which is what I think we are seeing with all the cosmic sex - I am fairly certain that this is what was intended with all the cosmic sex especially with the inclusion of what looks like a cheetah or some kind of great cat - part of the metaphors within the Tantric Sexual theory.
Chiron and sacrifice comes in with the myth of the accidental wounding of the immortal Chiron by Herakles who wounds him with a stray arrow while in a fight. However, since Chiron is immortal, and the wound was caused by the arrow that has been dipped and coated with the blood of the Hydra which will cause any wound to never heal. Chiron is now in perpetual pain but with no possibility of release by death. Eventually Chiron will sacrifice his immortal life in exchange for the life and release of Prometheus who can only escape his perpetual punishment if any immortal being will offer the exchange of their immortal life, go into Tartarus and live and die there.
How could this possibly work with this strange direction that has taken over the Buffyverse. Several ways, and the one I favor simply because I don't like giving Angel such a high status and reward. Someone very close to Buffy will be damaged with horrible consequences and only one life for another will solve the problem - either Dawn, maybe Andrew or now Spike will take on the sacrificial role and save the world or person. Another scenario, one that fits easier with what has been presented in the last two issue is that Angel is indeed gone insane or is poisoned or whatever, and Buffy will be the his road to salvation and in the process heal not only Angel but heal her own psychic wounds for her early life passion and love for him. This is actually what I want more than anything, for Buffy is just get over him and all the damn emotional baggage that she still carriers. With those Hippos that were shown as part of the cosmic sex, and another I totally hate is that Buffy will end up being pregnant by some mystical intervention i.e., Angel being controlled or influenced. The Hippo however could also be connected with the evil and destructive symbol of Seth. The last of my current speculation scenario is that because of a strange change of words used by Willow in the Giles-Willow discussion, is that Willow will betray, through good intentions Buffy. This however is already in play with Twangel as his justification for taking part in the killing and destruction against Buffy and all her Slayers.
There are many ways that this Tantric-Centaur could possibly work. Added to all this is a female Centaur that ends up killing herself - forget the reason - I will have to find that page again - Dawn committing suicide over Xander of something else? possible. For some reason, the theme of either Dawn or Andrew dying as a sacrifice or from some mistaken intention to do a brave heroic act.
Like I said, a lot of things can work with this combination.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here is a question for all the Spuffy fans and general Buffyverse Fans -
If Joss Whedon is taking the Cosmic Prophetic Buffy-Angel Path, would you still be interested in the Buffyverse?
The reason that I am asking is that this all seems so different from the TV era - what was so powerful about this phase were are the complexities of characters, the emotional and intellectual connections that were experienced - there was a level of engagement with the TV era that seems completely absent with the comic book season. The essence of this season seems to be "comic book genre" there is a very superficial quality with the presentation and the story lines - Everything is like a surface layer, without any depth. Here we are three years into this and everything is still without much substance and so many questions about every thing.
Is anyone really interested in Buffy as a Super Hero in the comic book style? Are you at all interested in investing any time or energy following a comic book formula of The Buffyverse? Are you satisfied with having very little emotional connection with these characters - would you still be excited to get every issue - or would you go into the mode that I find myself in with most other television - the "I forgot to tune in again" mode.
I found myself working on the completion of my comic book style project, one that maryperk did the text for, and I found that like I have lost something that I loved - like "why am I doing this?" I am slowly trying to get out of the "funk" that these comic books have put me into. I realized that I love and truly believe in the Buffy-Spike Transformation story, but it has changed for me now. It has be given a certain quixotic feel about it now - like I'm fighting that windmill with B/A/F always casting shadows now.
Anyone having the same kind of feelings, or am I just being a drama queen or being like William Pratt at the party having his little poet heart broken?
If Joss Whedon is taking the Cosmic Prophetic Buffy-Angel Path, would you still be interested in the Buffyverse?
The reason that I am asking is that this all seems so different from the TV era - what was so powerful about this phase were are the complexities of characters, the emotional and intellectual connections that were experienced - there was a level of engagement with the TV era that seems completely absent with the comic book season. The essence of this season seems to be "comic book genre" there is a very superficial quality with the presentation and the story lines - Everything is like a surface layer, without any depth. Here we are three years into this and everything is still without much substance and so many questions about every thing.
Is anyone really interested in Buffy as a Super Hero in the comic book style? Are you at all interested in investing any time or energy following a comic book formula of The Buffyverse? Are you satisfied with having very little emotional connection with these characters - would you still be excited to get every issue - or would you go into the mode that I find myself in with most other television - the "I forgot to tune in again" mode.
I found myself working on the completion of my comic book style project, one that maryperk did the text for, and I found that like I have lost something that I loved - like "why am I doing this?" I am slowly trying to get out of the "funk" that these comic books have put me into. I realized that I love and truly believe in the Buffy-Spike Transformation story, but it has changed for me now. It has be given a certain quixotic feel about it now - like I'm fighting that windmill with B/A/F always casting shadows now.
Anyone having the same kind of feelings, or am I just being a drama queen or being like William Pratt at the party having his little poet heart broken?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I'm with you Nmcil, so don't worry- you're not alone (though, I have been called a drama queen before lol).
I can honestly say that it's not the comic book style itself that's bothering me. I have bought a few of those Buffy omnibus books, and enjoyed them (I particularly loved the Spike-Dru comic 'All's Fair'). It was easier to connect with the characters there, because they were still the ones from the show. They didn't fit perfectly with canon by any means, but you were able to see the characters in them. Wherealess, I can't see them in season 8.
And no, I really don't like the Buffy as a superhero. I mean really, could it be anymore cliche? And quite frankly, the whole this is destiny thing is irritating me. I mean, I believe that we all have a certain level of destiny, but we also have the free will to choose whether we reach it or not. Free will is gone here. It's destiny seems like an excuse here, especially for Angel being Twilight and going psycho and planning an apparent genocide of the Slayers.
My best advice? Don't connect it to the show. Personally, when it comes to reading and writing, I will never connect it the show. To me, Buffy ended with Chosen, and Angel with Not Fade Away (okay, so I liked the storyline of After the Fall, so I MIGHT include it, but not by the time it gets to Aftermath). Anything based after that, I will only seek out in fanfcition. It helps with that queesy feeling the comics give me.
I can honestly say that it's not the comic book style itself that's bothering me. I have bought a few of those Buffy omnibus books, and enjoyed them (I particularly loved the Spike-Dru comic 'All's Fair'). It was easier to connect with the characters there, because they were still the ones from the show. They didn't fit perfectly with canon by any means, but you were able to see the characters in them. Wherealess, I can't see them in season 8.
And no, I really don't like the Buffy as a superhero. I mean really, could it be anymore cliche? And quite frankly, the whole this is destiny thing is irritating me. I mean, I believe that we all have a certain level of destiny, but we also have the free will to choose whether we reach it or not. Free will is gone here. It's destiny seems like an excuse here, especially for Angel being Twilight and going psycho and planning an apparent genocide of the Slayers.
My best advice? Don't connect it to the show. Personally, when it comes to reading and writing, I will never connect it the show. To me, Buffy ended with Chosen, and Angel with Not Fade Away (okay, so I liked the storyline of After the Fall, so I MIGHT include it, but not by the time it gets to Aftermath). Anything based after that, I will only seek out in fanfcition. It helps with that queesy feeling the comics give me.
~ Niori ~
Apr 11 2010 04:03 pm #127Ed
Guest
I think that I can sum up the entirety of my reactions to the whole of the Twilight situation in one simple phrase:
Ho-hum!
That being said, I'd still like to make a few comments concerning the situation.
But before we go any further however, I suppose that I should make a couple of generalised comments about myself and my own situation:
a) I'm not a shipper of any description, my interest primarily lies with Spike and I don't really care who he is pared with as long as the story is well written ... hell, there doesn't even have to be a love interest. 
I did quite like the Buffy/Spike storyline in the series, although I'm not really a big fan of Buffy (the character).
b) I do not read the season 8 comics (although I am a comic reader) consequently all I have to go on are what I've read on these threads. I do occasionally look at the comics in the shops, although I have not seen the latest issue.
c) Regrettably I'm generally too busy to make posts, although I'll try and reply to any comments.
My comments are:
1) Is it just me or does Buffy seem to be extremely messed up?
2) Is it moral to kill/murder some in order to prevent the deaths of even more?
3) Just a question, but why does everyone simply seem to accept Angel's word that he needed to kill some slayers in order to prevent a greater number of fatalities. Accepting anyone's unsubstantiated word for something like this seems to be a recipe for disaster. Imagine the licence it would give to murders and despots in the real world if they could use this as a defence ... we really had to kill that hundred people to save a thousand later! Where would you stop!!! In fact, isn’t this the argument precisely the type of argument that many dictators use to start wars: we needed to attack them before they attacked us? As I understand it, this type of argument is not a valid legal defence in any shape manner or form! And if it ever can be used as a defence, the circumstances behind it need to be examined extremely carefully! That being said, it's relatively easy to posit a hypothetical case where it would be moral to kill one person in order to save the life of another; so Angel's actions may be moral even if they are extremely questionable.
4) Even if you accept the argument that Angel needed to direct the killing of slayers in order to prevent even worse, you do not just jump into a marathon sex session with the person who killed many of your subordinates and/or friends ... no matter how much you like, love or trust him. This is a direct slap in the face of everyone who has been killed!!! Which bring me back to my first point: Is it just me or does Buffy seem to be extremely messed up?
5) I strongly question the need for the (relatively) graphic depiction of sex between Buffy and Angel. If I wanted to buy porn I'd simply go out and buy porn; that is not why I watched BtVS or AtS or read Spike related stories. It’s simply unnecessary, you can easily imply a strong sexual relationship within a comic book format without its graphic representation; do we really need this form of salacious titillation? [I like that phrase: salacious titillation 
]
6) A minor point I know, but why, when uber-Angel is so impervious to harm, does he still feel the need to beat up on Faith (and others)? Why doesn’t he (as he's supposed to care for her so much) simply restrain her or just ignore her feeble attempts to harm him?
It seems to me to be that the entire Buffy loves Angel or Spike argument is getting in the way of questioning the morality of Angel's actions and that's a pity! Personally I find this to be the more interesting point: why is Angel taking on the role of Twilight?
All that being said, we still don't know if (or how) the mystic glow is affecting Buffy (or Angel for that matter), and so I'm personally inclined to let the story run its course before making any final judgement.
On the other hand my main complaint with Buffy Season 8 is that, so far it hasn't engaged my interest; in short it bores me! It just doesn't tell a story that interests me!
Apr 11 2010 04:23 pm #128Ed
Guest
Hmmm! Me again, in my last post, I said: c) Regrettably I'm generally too busy to make posts, although I'll try and reply to any comments.
Thinking about it, this could have come across as a bit disparaging of the thread/field/shows, it certainly wasn’t meant that way! It was simple meant to indicate that, unfortunately, I don’t really have time to give this thread the time that it deserves and so if I don’t reply it’s because of time constraints rather than a lack of interest or respect for those that do contribute more. Sorry!!! 
I wish that I had the time!
"Imagine the license it would give to murders and despots in the real world if they could use this as a defence ... we really had to kill that hundred people to save a thousand later! Where would you stop!!! In fact, isn’t this the argument precisely the type of argument that many dictators use to start wars: we needed to attack them before they attacked us?"
GREAT POST - and this is what we had with the Bush Doctrine - and why so many readers and fans are so upset with all of this - and while it may seem that the big furor is over B/A - I think that the real deep down question is not a love interest but the real dislike is the treatment of Twangel's justification and premise. I can't image that Joss Whedon is going to try to make this his working model.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT - anyone can use this justification for any personal agenda - anything from being cruel and abusive to your children in the name of a personal morality to dropping bombs on people or to assassination of political enemies.
This Bangelfest has changed the discussion for some but the issue of Twangel killings and relativism has not gone away and is starting to come back again. I read "The Chain" again last night and that is a very powerful issue - I can't imagine that the sentiment and theme of this issue will not be revisited as the series concludes. And with all the killings and fights and abstraction of death reduce to numbers in war by Twangel, what I always remember is the cold-blooded command by Twangel to have that one person killed because he was a real threat to Twangel's personal agenda.
The Spuffy vs Bangel is only the surface layer, it's all this crazy talk of Wonder Lovers set against the killing fields that is a deep concern with a great many readers. I am only spending so much efforts in trying to understand what the Hell is going on because I cared so much about the series. I cared about the themes explored with the character and their stories. I know that I will no longer give my support to Joss Whedon and his current Buffyverse if the moral and ethical questions are not answered or justified in order to promote his vision of the Buffy-Angel relationship.
All of your question are extreme important ones - frankly, the whole premise and logic as presented thus far seems complete nonsense. Granted, there are some models that if applied as abstract theory might give this some plausibility - but nothing, for me, will be of any value in contrast to the moral choices of the characters. I just hope that The Buffyverse and Joss Whedon has developed enough to finally have his characters deal with their choices and have real consequences from those choices. This will be the end for me, if that does not happen.
"Even if you accept the argument that Angel needed to direct the killing of slayers in order to prevent even worse, you do not just jump into a marathon sex session with the person who killed many of your subordinates and/or friends ... no matter how much you like, love or trust him."
Absolutely and how miserable and degrading is this for his heroine model - but Buffy has always been presented as such a strange combination of emotional weakness and also finding great strength of character as the Slayer. You could almost wonder if he has a contempt for Buffy the woman and a Love for Buffy the warrior. Twangel beat the shit out of Buffy and Satsu - and now she is deep in the throes of her love and passion and being used by this mystical universal force, reduces her, IMO, to nothing but a vessel and puppet - Odin Puppet Sex indeed.
Thanks much for taking time to post your ideas - an excellent set of important questions that need answers. Frankly, I think that mostly strong supporters of the Buffy-Angel Love relationship are the readers that are enjoying and accepting this arc in a positive light. There are some readers that are liking the depiction of the sex from the position of a move away from the cultural moral attitudes, others see "gratuitous sex" Who would ever have thought that this level of explicit sex would become part of the Buffyverse. The cookie dough ready to eat was taken to heart - and that statement in one of the interviews about taking the issue into a dark room comes across as crass and totally insensitive.
GREAT POST - and this is what we had with the Bush Doctrine - and why so many readers and fans are so upset with all of this - and while it may seem that the big furor is over B/A - I think that the real deep down question is not a love interest but the real dislike is the treatment of Twangel's justification and premise. I can't image that Joss Whedon is going to try to make this his working model.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT - anyone can use this justification for any personal agenda - anything from being cruel and abusive to your children in the name of a personal morality to dropping bombs on people or to assassination of political enemies.
This Bangelfest has changed the discussion for some but the issue of Twangel killings and relativism has not gone away and is starting to come back again. I read "The Chain" again last night and that is a very powerful issue - I can't imagine that the sentiment and theme of this issue will not be revisited as the series concludes. And with all the killings and fights and abstraction of death reduce to numbers in war by Twangel, what I always remember is the cold-blooded command by Twangel to have that one person killed because he was a real threat to Twangel's personal agenda.
The Spuffy vs Bangel is only the surface layer, it's all this crazy talk of Wonder Lovers set against the killing fields that is a deep concern with a great many readers. I am only spending so much efforts in trying to understand what the Hell is going on because I cared so much about the series. I cared about the themes explored with the character and their stories. I know that I will no longer give my support to Joss Whedon and his current Buffyverse if the moral and ethical questions are not answered or justified in order to promote his vision of the Buffy-Angel relationship.
All of your question are extreme important ones - frankly, the whole premise and logic as presented thus far seems complete nonsense. Granted, there are some models that if applied as abstract theory might give this some plausibility - but nothing, for me, will be of any value in contrast to the moral choices of the characters. I just hope that The Buffyverse and Joss Whedon has developed enough to finally have his characters deal with their choices and have real consequences from those choices. This will be the end for me, if that does not happen.
"Even if you accept the argument that Angel needed to direct the killing of slayers in order to prevent even worse, you do not just jump into a marathon sex session with the person who killed many of your subordinates and/or friends ... no matter how much you like, love or trust him."
Absolutely and how miserable and degrading is this for his heroine model - but Buffy has always been presented as such a strange combination of emotional weakness and also finding great strength of character as the Slayer. You could almost wonder if he has a contempt for Buffy the woman and a Love for Buffy the warrior. Twangel beat the shit out of Buffy and Satsu - and now she is deep in the throes of her love and passion and being used by this mystical universal force, reduces her, IMO, to nothing but a vessel and puppet - Odin Puppet Sex indeed.
Thanks much for taking time to post your ideas - an excellent set of important questions that need answers. Frankly, I think that mostly strong supporters of the Buffy-Angel Love relationship are the readers that are enjoying and accepting this arc in a positive light. There are some readers that are liking the depiction of the sex from the position of a move away from the cultural moral attitudes, others see "gratuitous sex" Who would ever have thought that this level of explicit sex would become part of the Buffyverse. The cookie dough ready to eat was taken to heart - and that statement in one of the interviews about taking the issue into a dark room comes across as crass and totally insensitive.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here is the big chance to express your POV on what is happening over at DarkHorse - If you believe the journey that Buffy-Spike took together was pivotal in the series and to the characters - VOTE NOW. There was quality and power and a magnificent journey of transformation that Buffy and Spike shared and that deserves to be acknowledged.
Don't rely on other fans to show the admiration and respect that you feel toward their story together.
DarkHorse is convinced that most of the Buffyverse fans want nothing more than for Buffy and Angel to find their True and Final Love together - I respectfully submit that a great many fans do not share this perspective.
http://www.darkhorse.com/Help/Boards/viewtopic.php?t=17110
And Yes, the fandom is not naive, PR & Marketing indeed, what better than to bring out this poll at this time to stir up the fan base - so what. VOTE and let DarkHorse know that you support the Buffy and Spike journey - and that Buffy is more than a little lost girl and sex vessel.
Feel free to share this poll info with all your Buffyverse friends -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 21 2010 05:32 am #131coalitiongirl
I haven't been able to vote (the results show up when I get to the site), and I'm wondering if I've somehow already voted in this poll...is anyone else having the same problem?
Same thing for me CG.
And may I say that pretty much all the comments I bothered to read on the poll left me sad? I mean, they were all pretty much 'OMG! Buffy & ______ belong together!', for both sides? I was kinda hoping that there'd be some well constructed arguments from either side. Oh, and I'd leave one but it wants me to make an account.
And may I say that pretty much all the comments I bothered to read on the poll left me sad? I mean, they were all pretty much 'OMG! Buffy & ______ belong together!', for both sides? I was kinda hoping that there'd be some well constructed arguments from either side. Oh, and I'd leave one but it wants me to make an account.
~ Niori ~
Apr 21 2010 05:42 am #133coalitiongirl
Yep, looks like you have to join to vote...it only took me a few seconds, though.
Yeah, but I'm not going to sign up to make one vote. It probably makes me a bad Spuffy fan, but oh well. lol
Edit: Nevermind. I went and did it anway. lol
~ Niori ~
Apr 21 2010 09:52 am #135ladycat713
Guest
I tried but the results were already up. total 47 votes 30 for Spike, 14 for Angel, 1 for Riley and 3 for Satsu.
Apr 21 2010 05:32 pm #136The Enemy of Reality
I just voted. The results so far are 24% (13 votes) for Angel and 67% (36 votes) for Spike. I wish more people voted for Spike. It doesn't take much time at all to create an account... just a few seconds!
I think it is a very strange poll - the vote count changes dramatically - you have these results but the last time I check - Bangel was winning in the votes. PLUS - there appears to be two separate threads for the same poll - I ask for an explanation but have not received an answer.
I joined to vote, but I have actually enjoyed reading some of the Non Shipper discussions - things are getting very nasty between some of the Shippers. - as if that was what was really important in the series -
I joined to vote, but I have actually enjoyed reading some of the Non Shipper discussions - things are getting very nasty between some of the Shippers. - as if that was what was really important in the series -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Um, are we looking at the same poll Nmcil, because I just looked, and Spuffy was up to like 70%, and Bangel at like 22.
~ Niori ~
Apr 21 2010 11:16 pm #139slaymesoftly
Moderator
I voted. Spike was at 60% when I did, and the percentage didn't change after my vote.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
There's two polls..the one in the link by nmcil is called #34(spoilers) and there's another one that a poster has a link to that's called Buffy's Boys (Angel is leading in that one)...I think the Buffy's Boys one is old cause the first comment is in 2007, so it looks like alot of Bangel fans already voted in that one.
ETA...I just checked in the #34(Spoilers) Spike has 71% and Angel 22%.. in the Buffy's Boys Spike has 41% and Angel 52%.
Apr 22 2010 02:30 am #141slaymesoftly
Moderator
The comments on the Buffy's Boys one is ongoing, with messages going up0 today; but I couldn't get it to let me vote, so that poll must be closed.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
So - the poll for Issue #34 is the one that is taking votes and the other is an ongoing discussion only - thanks for the clarification,
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 22 2010 01:04 pm #143slaymesoftly
Moderator
*nods* And the discussion on Buffy's Boys seems to be very Bangel oriented. I don't intend to follow it.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Apr 22 2010 07:15 pm #144Purr.
Guest
I think I can bring something interesting into the "Angel fell in lurve with Buffy when she was 15 and sucking on a lolly" discussion; the perspective of a 15 year old.
Yup, Im 15. I have been a Buffy fanatic for as long as I can remember (my first memory is asking my sister why Angel was sitting in a corner like a freak when he was supposed to be all strong and vampy) and Ive shipped Spuffy since I was about 9 years old. Usually I like to lie about my age while discussing with other Buffy fans online because no one treats you as an equal when you`re FIFTEEN, lmao, but what the heck. I feel like being the expert on teeny boppers emotions right now.
The look Angel gives Buffy when she is sucking on that lolly is really, really disgusting. He looks evil to me, I think he kinda resembles that Bob guy from "Twin Peaks", and the first thing I thought was "what the heck?!" I just thought it was super nasty, and I even used to be a Bangel at the time! (Trust me; I got over it. I just kinda had the hots for Angelus. Angel on the other hand bored me to tears).
Even the car Angel is driving in just screams "pedo! kidnapper!", when you`re a kid theres some cars you dont like. Like vans. When a van drives by next to you, you always get kiiinda freaked out, because those cars are intimidating for some reason. I think Joss knows this and added it subconsciously.
I watched Becoming part 1 with a couple of friends of mine to get their opinion on the Bangel-lolly-look, and they also thought it was disturbing.
We`re all 15, and hell, one of them is even a Twilighter! If a Twi-Hard thinks something like that is nasty, then its REALLY nasty, lol.
I think it was a bad case of OOC when Buffy thought it was "sweet" or whatever when Angel gave her that queasy "warm your heart with my own" speech in s 3. If I dated someone a lot older than me when I was 18 and found out they had been in love with me since the first effing time they saw me when I was FIFTEEN, I would have called the cops on the guys ass. Buffy should have done that. Hee hee.
Anyway, that was just my two cents :)
And ooh, our love for Spuffy will never stop! Our ship will take over the world some day, trust me! ;)
The look Angel gives Buffy when she is sucking on that lolly is really, really disgusting. He looks evil to me, I think he kinda resembles that Bob guy from "Twin Peaks", and the first thing I thought was "what the heck?!" I just thought it was super nasty, and I even used to be a Bangel at the time! (Trust me; I got over it. I just kinda had the hots for Angelus. Angel on the other hand bored me to tears).
Even the car Angel is driving in just screams "pedo! kidnapper!", when you`re a kid theres some cars you dont like. Like vans. When a van drives by next to you, you always get kiiinda freaked out, because those cars are intimidating for some reason. I think Joss knows this and added it subconsciously.
I watched Becoming part 1 with a couple of friends of mine to get their opinion on the Bangel-lolly-look, and they also thought it was disturbing.
We`re all 15, and hell, one of them is even a Twilighter! If a Twi-Hard thinks something like that is nasty, then its REALLY nasty, lol.
I think it was a bad case of OOC when Buffy thought it was "sweet" or whatever when Angel gave her that queasy "warm your heart with my own" speech in s 3. If I dated someone a lot older than me when I was 18 and found out they had been in love with me since the first effing time they saw me when I was FIFTEEN, I would have called the cops on the guys ass. Buffy should have done that. Hee hee.
Anyway, that was just my two cents :)
And ooh, our love for Spuffy will never stop! Our ship will take over the world some day, trust me! ;)
Purr, I still get sketched out when a van drives by me, and I'm 21. The van is like the universal car of kidnappers and phedophiles (no offense to anyone who might own a van. lol), or at least the symbolic one.
~ Niori ~
Glad I could help.
Oh, and I'm with you completely with all the other Bangel stuff you said. I like Bangel right up until that flashback, and then it was pretty much tainted for me.
Oh, and I'm with you completely with all the other Bangel stuff you said. I like Bangel right up until that flashback, and then it was pretty much tainted for me.
~ Niori ~
Apr 22 2010 07:45 pm #148coalitiongirl
Well said, Purr. :) Dirty old man eyeing lollipop girl? More than a little disturbing. Young Buffy reminds me of Twilight's Bella *ducks* in that she really does seem caught up in the idea of the fairy tale, the Romeo and Juliet-esque story of her and Angel. It's a pretty immature love- and I do think that, without Angelus and the metaphors there, it wouldn't have been very popular. Because Bangel got all the hype after that (and eventually became a leading man to Buffy's leading lady in AtS), I think that the writers clung to that romance- first in S3, which, if nothing else, proved how DULL Bangel is as a couple, then continuing on until now.
Apr 22 2010 09:05 pm #149ladycat713
Guest
I never really got into Bangel, I thought it was too high school , not the kind that might mature , the kind that just causes a lot of drama and fizzles out.And I think without the body count , it would have fizzled out because it seems like it had to be more than it was to justify the body count.
That scene with Buffy and the lollipop is what mad eme go from eye rolling to ewww!
The writers of Angel at least seemed to get the high school aspect of Bangel in the episode Fredless where Cordelia and Wesley were acting it out for Fred (and that scene made me laugh).
That scene with Buffy and the lollipop is what mad eme go from eye rolling to ewww!
The writers of Angel at least seemed to get the high school aspect of Bangel in the episode Fredless where Cordelia and Wesley were acting it out for Fred (and that scene made me laugh).
Speaking only for myself - and I don't intend any ridicule of Bangel fans or shippers, but taken as a whole and with all the visuals and metaphor - how do people come to the conclusion that this was intended as a Good relationship for this young girl?
Take the infamous lollipop sucking scene - lollipop are the iconic symbol of a child's candy - it used to be what doctor's gave all the little kids as a reward. Granted, do the Jossian conversion model and what you get is the "reward for Angel/Angelus" - but here, and this is the Great Big But, what is being offered as a reward is this 15 year old teenage girl - and there is no mistake about how this 250 year old male saw her, as a object of his love and desires. Let''s go with the whole Romeo & Juliet connect that is constantly being applied to Bangel. Again, while the age of Romeo is never stated in the play, Romeo is a young male and his culture and life experience is of the same level of Juliet's - Romeo has not killed thousands of people, raped who knows how many, made an art of the destruction of body, mind and soul of his victims. The metaphor of the Romeo and Juliet play was about the destruction of lives caused by the social/class structures and hatred of other peoples forced on their lives - It was not all about love and passion and uncontrolled desires. Juliet never went out to purposely kill another human being form her obsession and passions for Romeo.
I think that I can understand some of Joss Whedon's intent, if we apply his own statement that Joseph Cambell was an influence on the early seasons of BTVS. Unconditional Love - the great expression of the Chivalry and Knighthood plus, according to Campbell the greatest expression of love because the lovers are willing to sacrifice all in the name of their love. Unconditional Love, great, but the reality that is given in the Bangel romance and love is primarily about the darkness and pain that this two individuals experience. When Romeo and Juliet awaken from their night of physical consummation of that love the end results is a union of the lovers - what do we get with Buffy-Angel? We Get Angelus. We don't get two young lovers who by the tragic intervention of time and people are truly the star crossed lovers. These two young lovers are not united after death and destruction and the most horrific emotional and psychological destruction by the male lover - No, Romeo and Juliet find death and accept death because the find no meaning in life without each other. These two tragic lovers are the metaphor for both the destruction and creation of life and social harmony. Romeo becomes entangled in the net of death from first trying to avoided this death and destructive elements - It is the intervention of his friend and the opposite tribe member that are the impetus for the initial deaths in the play. Exactly the opposite results from the love of Buffy and Angel/Angelus, it is not the lovers who die, as in Romeo and Juliet, it is the conversion again in that the friends and family are effected. Giles, as the father figure and his very new love that is destroyed with the killing of Jenny. Where is the "positive application" for the Romeo and Juliet connection that is so often applied to Buffy-Angel Forever? I don't see it - Romeo and Juliet brought warning people together, Buffy-Angel does exactly the opposite, it destroyed people, friendships, the love of her father figure.
Personally, I think that Joss Whedon and the writers have always to prop up and support the Bangel relationship because the created, either by good intent or ill thought of plot device, a circumstance of character treatment that had so many provocative and culturally offensive elements that they cannot or will not admit to any problems with this love relationship. I GET IT, our culture can be narrow minded, we are bigoted and like to have and see things only for what makes convenience to our world view. The only problem with the application of "unconditional love" and Buffy is that it brought little but some great make out sessions, one night of physical love, and a hell of a lot deaths and destruction of other people.
Another treatment of the young 15 year old is how clearly Buffy is shown as a silly young romantic "I need a boy friend" in my life at this age - it is a complete contrast to the very adult and dangerous affair which she had with Angel/Angelus.
If I am totally off and wrong and hanging out in LaLaland about how young people deal with their love at this age, PLEASE - you young people out there, and those that were young when the series was aired, tell me what the real deal is. I was not a young person when the series aired, but I remember well what I felt like at that age - I thought my Huge Crush was love. And it was love, but love of the most superficial and transitory kind - I would not have been prepared for any of the dire consequences to my life had some serious shit come from that romantic first love.
As much as some viewers and current fans say, that the series is fiction and it is not intended to reflect real life, I don't believe that is the case. I believe the series was intended to reflect the lives of real people - had it not, there would not still be thousands of fans that engage in serious discussion about these characters and their stories.
Take the infamous lollipop sucking scene - lollipop are the iconic symbol of a child's candy - it used to be what doctor's gave all the little kids as a reward. Granted, do the Jossian conversion model and what you get is the "reward for Angel/Angelus" - but here, and this is the Great Big But, what is being offered as a reward is this 15 year old teenage girl - and there is no mistake about how this 250 year old male saw her, as a object of his love and desires. Let''s go with the whole Romeo & Juliet connect that is constantly being applied to Bangel. Again, while the age of Romeo is never stated in the play, Romeo is a young male and his culture and life experience is of the same level of Juliet's - Romeo has not killed thousands of people, raped who knows how many, made an art of the destruction of body, mind and soul of his victims. The metaphor of the Romeo and Juliet play was about the destruction of lives caused by the social/class structures and hatred of other peoples forced on their lives - It was not all about love and passion and uncontrolled desires. Juliet never went out to purposely kill another human being form her obsession and passions for Romeo.
I think that I can understand some of Joss Whedon's intent, if we apply his own statement that Joseph Cambell was an influence on the early seasons of BTVS. Unconditional Love - the great expression of the Chivalry and Knighthood plus, according to Campbell the greatest expression of love because the lovers are willing to sacrifice all in the name of their love. Unconditional Love, great, but the reality that is given in the Bangel romance and love is primarily about the darkness and pain that this two individuals experience. When Romeo and Juliet awaken from their night of physical consummation of that love the end results is a union of the lovers - what do we get with Buffy-Angel? We Get Angelus. We don't get two young lovers who by the tragic intervention of time and people are truly the star crossed lovers. These two young lovers are not united after death and destruction and the most horrific emotional and psychological destruction by the male lover - No, Romeo and Juliet find death and accept death because the find no meaning in life without each other. These two tragic lovers are the metaphor for both the destruction and creation of life and social harmony. Romeo becomes entangled in the net of death from first trying to avoided this death and destructive elements - It is the intervention of his friend and the opposite tribe member that are the impetus for the initial deaths in the play. Exactly the opposite results from the love of Buffy and Angel/Angelus, it is not the lovers who die, as in Romeo and Juliet, it is the conversion again in that the friends and family are effected. Giles, as the father figure and his very new love that is destroyed with the killing of Jenny. Where is the "positive application" for the Romeo and Juliet connection that is so often applied to Buffy-Angel Forever? I don't see it - Romeo and Juliet brought warning people together, Buffy-Angel does exactly the opposite, it destroyed people, friendships, the love of her father figure.
Personally, I think that Joss Whedon and the writers have always to prop up and support the Bangel relationship because the created, either by good intent or ill thought of plot device, a circumstance of character treatment that had so many provocative and culturally offensive elements that they cannot or will not admit to any problems with this love relationship. I GET IT, our culture can be narrow minded, we are bigoted and like to have and see things only for what makes convenience to our world view. The only problem with the application of "unconditional love" and Buffy is that it brought little but some great make out sessions, one night of physical love, and a hell of a lot deaths and destruction of other people.
Another treatment of the young 15 year old is how clearly Buffy is shown as a silly young romantic "I need a boy friend" in my life at this age - it is a complete contrast to the very adult and dangerous affair which she had with Angel/Angelus.
If I am totally off and wrong and hanging out in LaLaland about how young people deal with their love at this age, PLEASE - you young people out there, and those that were young when the series was aired, tell me what the real deal is. I was not a young person when the series aired, but I remember well what I felt like at that age - I thought my Huge Crush was love. And it was love, but love of the most superficial and transitory kind - I would not have been prepared for any of the dire consequences to my life had some serious shit come from that romantic first love.
As much as some viewers and current fans say, that the series is fiction and it is not intended to reflect real life, I don't believe that is the case. I believe the series was intended to reflect the lives of real people - had it not, there would not still be thousands of fans that engage in serious discussion about these characters and their stories.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 22 2010 10:51 pm #151Scarlet Ibis
I don't know who wrote or directed that ep, but I must say that I have no idea what it was they were going for, making Angel appear to be some kind of pervert.
But on the flip side, if their intent was to show Buffy as this immature, teenage girl sheltered from the world at school, then she goes home to hear her parents fighting/divorce impending talk (strip a layer of innocence) and then discovering her destiny (strip another layer) and then fighting vampires, knowing she has to put her life on the line nightly (strip another layer)...then okay.
But clearly, they went about it the wrong way.
But on the flip side, if their intent was to show Buffy as this immature, teenage girl sheltered from the world at school, then she goes home to hear her parents fighting/divorce impending talk (strip a layer of innocence) and then discovering her destiny (strip another layer) and then fighting vampires, knowing she has to put her life on the line nightly (strip another layer)...then okay.
But clearly, they went about it the wrong way.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
They did that very nice scene when Angel sees Buffy crying and looking at herself in the mirror - it makes me think of Drusilla and that he is trying to do something to make up for that -
It would be so great to have a resource where questions about treatment could be asked. It could not have escaped notice by anyone doing that episode that using a lollipop and in that context would have had very strong cultural baggage with it. I think that the series has much more psychological layers that some viewers do not want to acknowledge. Especially now that viewers have had a lot of time to really explore what was presented. This theme of young people and childhood innocence has a lot of significance with the Angel/Angelus character - when Darla insists that he kill that infant, it is at this point that Angel/Angelus makes his final break from his vampire family. He tells Darla something like he can't be or do what he no longer is. Buffy, and I believe it was you that stated so, is extremely significant because of her spiritual and physical innocence; her symbolism of atonement for his past life.
It would be so great to have a resource where questions about treatment could be asked. It could not have escaped notice by anyone doing that episode that using a lollipop and in that context would have had very strong cultural baggage with it. I think that the series has much more psychological layers that some viewers do not want to acknowledge. Especially now that viewers have had a lot of time to really explore what was presented. This theme of young people and childhood innocence has a lot of significance with the Angel/Angelus character - when Darla insists that he kill that infant, it is at this point that Angel/Angelus makes his final break from his vampire family. He tells Darla something like he can't be or do what he no longer is. Buffy, and I believe it was you that stated so, is extremely significant because of her spiritual and physical innocence; her symbolism of atonement for his past life.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 23 2010 01:39 am #153Scarlet Ibis
Oh--
I meant to add that Angel wanted to help preserve that innocence, as you said nmcil, due more than likely in part to his guilt over Drusilla, who's innocence he stripped away all on his own.
I meant to add that Angel wanted to help preserve that innocence, as you said nmcil, due more than likely in part to his guilt over Drusilla, who's innocence he stripped away all on his own.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 23 2010 06:01 pm #154Ed
Guest
Just a question, but is there anyone out there who really thinks that Joss et al will leave Buffy paired with Angel (or Spike for that matter) in the long term? Personally I don't!
My tendency is to believe that the whole thing (with the Bangel sex etc) is merely an attempt to increase sales by telling a deeply flawed story in an overly dramatic way.
Yes, I know that Joss Whedon could still pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat (sorry Anya!), but I'm sorry, it's just not that good a story. To me, the story just doesn't make sufficient sense; people are being far too illogical, they're far too prone to forget things or fail to relate crucial bits of information for no good reason. For example, what bunch of idiots commits suicide because of a vague unsubstantiated prophecy that the world could end? Can we now expect to see Xander, Dawn, Willow, Faith or Andrew commit suicide now that Giles has revealed the terrible truth? I'm sorry, but to repeat myself, the whole thing just doesn't make sense!
Sorry, I went off on a bit of a rant there: back to my original question.
Personally I just don't see Buffy being teamed up with Angel in the long term. For that matter, I don't see her being teamed up with Spike either. I just don't think that Joss is willing to make that type of decision for Buffy. So while I find the current story line irritating, to say the least, I can reasonably ignore it as I'm relatively sure that things will return to status quo in the near future ... at least in regard to Angel/Buffy/Spike.
As for Spike, well, I tend to believe that Joss and the other writers will give him a suitably dramatic moment in the sun (figuratively, of course!) and possibly even go so far as to create a pseudo-romantic moment with Buffy: but he will not stay with her!
Between you and me, I'm beginning to feel quite sorry for Buffy!
On the other hand, there is no doubt that the current storyline has significantly raised the profile of the comic, and so, it many ways, the plotline has served its purpose. Or am I being too cynical here?
Don't get me wrong, I know that Joss Whedon can write impressive comic books; I read his Astonishing X-Men comic, and it was excellent! Unfortunately, for me at any rate, he simply hasn’t been able to repeat that success in Buffy Season 8.
PS: Hi nmcil. To me, Angel’s interest in the young Buffy was always of questionably morality, and yes, the lollipop scene was always extremely disturbing … probably intentionally so. While it may have been intended to signify Buffy’s innocence, even a moment’s thought should have raised questions about the imagery involved.
Apr 23 2010 06:13 pm #155Ed
Guest
Interesting imagery on the Georges Jeanty Cover for issue #35. Is Buffy saying oppp, nothing to do with me ... honest! 
Spuffy is indeed in its waning phase if we can lose to Arthur Pendragon and Merlin - Don't know how much longer this LJ poll goes on but if you still love Spuffy, how about a little support - this is a round robin.
http://community.livejournal.com/shipmturns5/5416.html
http://community.livejournal.com/shipmturns5/5416.html
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 11 2010 10:49 pm #157Purr.
Guest
Spuffy is indeed in its waning phase if we can lose to Arthur Pendragon and Merlin - Don't know how much longer this LJ poll goes on but if you still love Spuffy, how about a little support - this is a round robin. http://community.livejournal.com/shipmturns5/5416.html
I dont understand how people can take crack!fics that seriously ... The show ended - canon ended. THE END. Lol.
I dont understand how people can take crack!fics that seriously ... The show ended - canon ended. THE END. Lol.
I have been reading some very interesting discussions at LJ about Buffy and Spike and the changes of "fan perceptions" regarding the characters. Then I came across this site from my e-mail listings. The Sites has great list of academic articles - some, perhaps all, are in pdf files that you can keep for your studies.
http://www.buffy.de/buffy/en/default.php?x=en
This particular article on how the series and particularly Buffy's love and sexual relationship can been seen and interpreted in various perspectives is especially significant with all the Bangel vs Spuffy debate that have been renewed again with the Brad Meltzer comic book season arc.
Once again, I am reminded of why I find so disgusting and IMVHO the choice by the writers and Joss Whedon to go with the "attempted rape" resolution to the Buffy - Spike relationship. It's no wonder that James Marsters-Spike was so splendid in his heart breaking "I love you" line and scene in "Chosen."
The AR effectively put the stake through Spike and his love - with the passage of time has the "attempted rape" lost, even just a bit, the horrendous damage to the character of Spike.
The Slayer Studies Online
Excerpt from the article
Carolyn Cocca
"First Word 'Jail,' Second Word 'Bait'": Adolescent
Sexuality, Feminist Theories, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer
31] As with Angel, her feelings for Spike certainly clouded her judgment. Even after this pivotal event, she
not only accepts him in her life but supports him. It is obvious that he has been killing people, but she forgives him and
keeps him in the house with them. It also appears that he is perhaps mad and being controlled by the First, but she
still keeps him close by and trusts him, to the surprise and horror of the others (7009 "Never Leave Me"-7013 "The
Killer in Me"). She decides that having his chip removed, under these circumstances, is the right thing to do because
she feels that his soul will point him toward choosing not to hurt people. Along with Giles, who finds him to be a
"liability" and who goes so far as to try to have Robin Wood kill him ("Lies My Parents Told Me," 7017), the other
potential slayers sense that she is unreasonable where he is concerned. Anya notes bitterly in the same episode:
"Spike has some kind of 'get out of jail free' card that doesn't apply to the rest of us." Indeed, Buffy feels that he is the
"only one watching [her] back" ("Empty Places," 7019).
[32] In an interview after the end of the series, Marsters gave his interpretation of the last episode: "What
the final episode did very well was admit that Buffy really is in love with Angel. That the sexual relationship she had
with Spike was unhealthy. That it was unwise . . . Spike was evil" (Butler 1). Other writers on the show were similarly
alarmed at fans' positive reaction to Spike and Buffy's relationship, saying on more than one occasion that the
relationship was meant to be received as abusive. While in this relationship with Spike, it was apparently Buffy who
was the more powerful party, one could also argue that she was not because it was her vulnerability and confusion that
motivated her to seek him out even when she knew it to be harmful to her; also, he could have hurt her at any turn as
he showed with the attempted rape.
[33] In sum, one could look at Buffy's sexual relationships with Angel, Riley, and Spike from a variety of
points of view. Rather than subscribing to one particular branch of feminist theories about adolescent sexuality and
about gender, they can all be at play in the complexities of the relationships portrayed. It may be that sexual decisions
made by a teen (particularly by a female teen), or by someone who is younger than his or her sex partner, are rash
and/or manipulated decisions, as liberal feminists would worry. But they may not be, sex radicals would argue. It may
also be that females are generally the weaker party in any heterosexual relationship, as radical feminists would assert,
but they may not be. By the same token, it may be that sexual decisions made by adults, male or female, are wellgrounded,
but they may not be.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 22 2010 04:18 pm #159Terapsihora
There is one very important thing that has always bothered me about everyone's reaction to the infamous Bathroom Scene. The thing is - although I don't in any way condone Spike's actions at that time (they were wrong and most definitely hurt Buffy) I also cant say that it was an attempted rape in a way that someone that has lived through it would understand it.
Rape is about power, about one person's complete control over another person. But in that scene Spike didn't want to have total control over Buffy, he wanted for her to love him (even if just a little) and he needed for her to show that to him. But after all those months of Buffy only getting closer to him through sex and using his flesh for purely physical pleasure is it any wonder that in his desperation he did the same thing with her. I mean if she in that bathroom had shown the tiniest bit of compassion - even if she never said that she cared about him, - can you honestly say he would have gone that far?
So although I see that moment as his lowest point in the entire series, and something he should feel guilty for I cant really say that it was simply attempted rape. That might be the case if something like it had happened a season earlier, but at that point in time it just wasn't that simple.
Then there is the fact that Xander had once tried to rape Buffy himself, and at least from my point of view there the circumstances were far worst, even if he was possessed, he was still Xander. And to add insult to injury his response to that episode was acting like he didn't remember anything so that he would never have to deal with it. Buffy didn't even get an apology for that attack. Spike on the other hand knew that what he had done was wrong and he went looking to regain his soul (It couldn't have been an accident while trying to remove his chip, if he had wanted to kill Buffy there would be no need for that, he could already have done so, the chip was ineffective against her anyway).
Talking about comics I have to say that everyone in there is so out of character that I simply cant look at them as canon. But I don't think that suddenly just because that weird ComicBook!Buffy acts the way she does we will stop being fans of Spuffy. Just like its in our nature to try and justify the actions of our favorite vampire Spike and it is in Bangel fans nature to justify anything done by Angel there is no way all those ridiculous relationships made and broken in the comics would stop us from dreaming up new ways for Spike and Buffy to be together.
Rape is about power, about one person's complete control over another person. But in that scene Spike didn't want to have total control over Buffy, he wanted for her to love him (even if just a little) and he needed for her to show that to him. But after all those months of Buffy only getting closer to him through sex and using his flesh for purely physical pleasure is it any wonder that in his desperation he did the same thing with her. I mean if she in that bathroom had shown the tiniest bit of compassion - even if she never said that she cared about him, - can you honestly say he would have gone that far?
So although I see that moment as his lowest point in the entire series, and something he should feel guilty for I cant really say that it was simply attempted rape. That might be the case if something like it had happened a season earlier, but at that point in time it just wasn't that simple.
Then there is the fact that Xander had once tried to rape Buffy himself, and at least from my point of view there the circumstances were far worst, even if he was possessed, he was still Xander. And to add insult to injury his response to that episode was acting like he didn't remember anything so that he would never have to deal with it. Buffy didn't even get an apology for that attack. Spike on the other hand knew that what he had done was wrong and he went looking to regain his soul (It couldn't have been an accident while trying to remove his chip, if he had wanted to kill Buffy there would be no need for that, he could already have done so, the chip was ineffective against her anyway).
Talking about comics I have to say that everyone in there is so out of character that I simply cant look at them as canon. But I don't think that suddenly just because that weird ComicBook!Buffy acts the way she does we will stop being fans of Spuffy. Just like its in our nature to try and justify the actions of our favorite vampire Spike and it is in Bangel fans nature to justify anything done by Angel there is no way all those ridiculous relationships made and broken in the comics would stop us from dreaming up new ways for Spike and Buffy to be together.
"The darkest demons can be found in a human's heart."
Then there is the fact that Xander had once tried to rape Buffy himself, and at least from my point of view there the circumstances were far worst, even if he was possessed, he was still Xander. And to add insult to injury his response to that episode was acting like he didn't remember anything so that he would never have to deal with it. Buffy didn't even get an apology for that attack.
An outer force took over Xander's body. We can't blame him for something he didn't do with free will. Yes, it brought out the darker side in Xander mixed with the animal that possessed him, but it wasn't Xander's fault. Xander, in his right mind, had the chance to rape Buffy in BB&B, but he didn't do it.
Buffy wasn't traumatized by what Xander did because she knew it wasn't Xander, so she didn't need an apology, because Xander had nothing to do with it. With Spike it was different, nothing possessed him, he was still Spike. That's why Buffy was angry and hurt. And once Buffy knew he'd gotten himself a soul, she gradually started to treat him better.
Talking about comics I have to say that everyone in there is so out of character that I simply cant look at them as canon.
I have to disagree. I've made a post about it before, here it is:
I get why it's been hard for some fans to enjoy S8; the change in medium, the lack of budget restrain, the fairy tale theme of the season, the return of so many older characters, the lack of actors and music, female nudity….. etc
All these issues are valid and understandable, but the accusation I don't understand is claiming that characters are written out of character.
One of the things I've enjoyed the most about S8 is the characterization. All characters are written accurately IMO.
I get accusing Buffy and Angel to be written out of character, Angel more than Buffy. But other than that, all characters are developing naturally based on the last time we've seen them in S7.
Xander started becoming mellower and understanding after Selfless and S8 continued that, to the extent of Xander not objecting to Buffy's decision to rob a bank. His close friendship with Buffy started after Seeing Red, grew closer in S7, and grew closer in S8. Natural development. Xander's relationship with Dawn was set since S7. Xander is able to resist the Dracula thrall and tell him off (a much better conclusion to his story with Dracula than what we got in Buffy Vs Dracula).
Then we have Willow, who'd been so scared to use her powers in S7, afraid she'd lose control, regained confidence after her last spell in Chosen. Then in S8, she decides to do something about it. She starts from the beginning; she does what she didn't want to do before when she was arrogant and smug about her powers (S5 and S6), she wants to understand her powers, she's looking for a guide. That's character growth. Happened naturally and perfectly.
As for Giles, the wall between him and Buffy is still there, even though they're pretending it's not. Giles also acts behind Buffy's back again, he seems to have taken a habit of that. His relationship with Faith is a wonderful new addition to canon.
Dawn goes to college, dates Kenny despite Buffy's objections, seems she's been using him to get Buffy's attention. She pissed him off on purpose so that he'd curse her and then Buffy would have to save her, but unfortunately Buffy didn't, and Dawn had to save herself. She learned a lot from this experience. Then she started a relationship with Xander, something the writers seemed to have been building up since S7.
Faith's character development is also gradual and moves smoothly after S7. Same goes for Andrew.
Last but not least, Buffy. "I'm the law" it all started in S7 and continued in S8. "The thing about changing the world, once you do it, the world is all different." This is Buffy's newest challenge, the hardest, and yes, she probably didn't handle a lot of things perfectly, but personally I understand what she's going through and sympathize, even though I don't agree with a lot of her decisions.
An outer force took over Xander's body. We can't blame him for something he didn't do with free will. Yes, it brought out the darker side in Xander mixed with the animal that possessed him, but it wasn't Xander's fault. Xander, in his right mind, had the chance to rape Buffy in BB&B, but he didn't do it.
Buffy wasn't traumatized by what Xander did because she knew it wasn't Xander, so she didn't need an apology, because Xander had nothing to do with it. With Spike it was different, nothing possessed him, he was still Spike. That's why Buffy was angry and hurt. And once Buffy knew he'd gotten himself a soul, she gradually started to treat him better.
Talking about comics I have to say that everyone in there is so out of character that I simply cant look at them as canon.
I have to disagree. I've made a post about it before, here it is:
I get why it's been hard for some fans to enjoy S8; the change in medium, the lack of budget restrain, the fairy tale theme of the season, the return of so many older characters, the lack of actors and music, female nudity….. etc
All these issues are valid and understandable, but the accusation I don't understand is claiming that characters are written out of character.
One of the things I've enjoyed the most about S8 is the characterization. All characters are written accurately IMO.
I get accusing Buffy and Angel to be written out of character, Angel more than Buffy. But other than that, all characters are developing naturally based on the last time we've seen them in S7.
Xander started becoming mellower and understanding after Selfless and S8 continued that, to the extent of Xander not objecting to Buffy's decision to rob a bank. His close friendship with Buffy started after Seeing Red, grew closer in S7, and grew closer in S8. Natural development. Xander's relationship with Dawn was set since S7. Xander is able to resist the Dracula thrall and tell him off (a much better conclusion to his story with Dracula than what we got in Buffy Vs Dracula).
Then we have Willow, who'd been so scared to use her powers in S7, afraid she'd lose control, regained confidence after her last spell in Chosen. Then in S8, she decides to do something about it. She starts from the beginning; she does what she didn't want to do before when she was arrogant and smug about her powers (S5 and S6), she wants to understand her powers, she's looking for a guide. That's character growth. Happened naturally and perfectly.
As for Giles, the wall between him and Buffy is still there, even though they're pretending it's not. Giles also acts behind Buffy's back again, he seems to have taken a habit of that. His relationship with Faith is a wonderful new addition to canon.
Dawn goes to college, dates Kenny despite Buffy's objections, seems she's been using him to get Buffy's attention. She pissed him off on purpose so that he'd curse her and then Buffy would have to save her, but unfortunately Buffy didn't, and Dawn had to save herself. She learned a lot from this experience. Then she started a relationship with Xander, something the writers seemed to have been building up since S7.
Faith's character development is also gradual and moves smoothly after S7. Same goes for Andrew.
Last but not least, Buffy. "I'm the law" it all started in S7 and continued in S8. "The thing about changing the world, once you do it, the world is all different." This is Buffy's newest challenge, the hardest, and yes, she probably didn't handle a lot of things perfectly, but personally I understand what she's going through and sympathize, even though I don't agree with a lot of her decisions.
Aug 22 2010 11:08 pm #161pfeifferpack
Terapsihora, I know what you mean about the SR attempted rape scene. I have been in discussion after discussion about this coming from the point of view of someone who has actually been raped (and in group therapy with other rape survivors with different experiences from my own). I have not ever seen what happened there as an attempted rape. I have been pretty well quashed in discussions (usually from people who have NOT been raped BTW) who tell me how wrong I am, how I am not a proper feminist or whatever. I have finally reached the point of rarely discussing the scene at all. Had I seen it as a real AR I would never have continued to root for Spuffy.
What I saw was an act of desperation undertaken by someone with no strong moral compass due to the lack of the soul to tell him that it wasn't the best way to achieve his goal (much like the chaining her up to tell her he loved her). Dawn had told a drunken Spike that Buffy was hurt by his being with Anya and that translated to Buffy DID love him if only he could get her to admit it. She was the slayer and even injured she could have easily gotten him off of her (yes, she was shocked he attacked her and off her guard). When she did push him off it was like slapping someone in hysteria....he IMMEDIATELY came to his senses and was horrified by what he had done.
Actually the surprise wasn't what he DID do but that he didn't....he was an un-souled vampire (and the chip didn't work on her). The "natural" thing for him to do would have been to take what he wanted and/or kill or turn her NOT run off in shamed horror and then punish himself the best way possible, by destroying the self he was by gaining a soul (or dusting in the attempt)....suicide any way you look at it based on what he knew of souls.
Sosa: The only part about Xander in The Pack that I have issue with is AFTER the Hyena spirit is gone. The issue is with both Xander and Giles (actually the writers cause they were the ones that thought it was funny I guess) and that shared wink and a nudge moment when Giles snapped that Xander DID remember. If you think about it there are areas of comparison with Spike too in that Spike has a demon in him that effects his choices just as they Hyena did to Xander.
I probably just opened myself up to being told how wrongly I see this again but some days I just gotta do it. It wasn't attempted rape, it was a really bad decision on the writers part that translated to an act of desperation on Spike's. He was wrong. He was completely out of line but it was not attempted rape (a rapist is NOT trying to get the woman to admit she has feelings for him in any real way...it's an act of power and attempt to humiliate, defile).
Angel and Spike were both serial killers on a leash, one with the chip and the other the FORCED soul given as a curse (for having raped and killed the gypsy girl). Both likely did commit rape. If Angel got a clean slate after he had his unwelcomed soul how much more should Spike who actively sought his soul? Which is harder to forget and forgive.....rape or murder? Both of them tried to murder Buffy without their souls and Angelus would likely have been inclined to rape Buffy before killing her had he the time given that was his standard behavior without a soul.
Long winded.... sorrry
Kathleen
What I saw was an act of desperation undertaken by someone with no strong moral compass due to the lack of the soul to tell him that it wasn't the best way to achieve his goal (much like the chaining her up to tell her he loved her). Dawn had told a drunken Spike that Buffy was hurt by his being with Anya and that translated to Buffy DID love him if only he could get her to admit it. She was the slayer and even injured she could have easily gotten him off of her (yes, she was shocked he attacked her and off her guard). When she did push him off it was like slapping someone in hysteria....he IMMEDIATELY came to his senses and was horrified by what he had done.
Actually the surprise wasn't what he DID do but that he didn't....he was an un-souled vampire (and the chip didn't work on her). The "natural" thing for him to do would have been to take what he wanted and/or kill or turn her NOT run off in shamed horror and then punish himself the best way possible, by destroying the self he was by gaining a soul (or dusting in the attempt)....suicide any way you look at it based on what he knew of souls.
Sosa: The only part about Xander in The Pack that I have issue with is AFTER the Hyena spirit is gone. The issue is with both Xander and Giles (actually the writers cause they were the ones that thought it was funny I guess) and that shared wink and a nudge moment when Giles snapped that Xander DID remember. If you think about it there are areas of comparison with Spike too in that Spike has a demon in him that effects his choices just as they Hyena did to Xander.
I probably just opened myself up to being told how wrongly I see this again but some days I just gotta do it. It wasn't attempted rape, it was a really bad decision on the writers part that translated to an act of desperation on Spike's. He was wrong. He was completely out of line but it was not attempted rape (a rapist is NOT trying to get the woman to admit she has feelings for him in any real way...it's an act of power and attempt to humiliate, defile).
Angel and Spike were both serial killers on a leash, one with the chip and the other the FORCED soul given as a curse (for having raped and killed the gypsy girl). Both likely did commit rape. If Angel got a clean slate after he had his unwelcomed soul how much more should Spike who actively sought his soul? Which is harder to forget and forgive.....rape or murder? Both of them tried to murder Buffy without their souls and Angelus would likely have been inclined to rape Buffy before killing her had he the time given that was his standard behavior without a soul.
Long winded.... sorrry
Kathleen
Aug 23 2010 12:30 am #162slaymesoftly
Moderator
Kathleen - What I saw was an act of desperation undertaken by someone with no strong moral compass due to the lack of the soul to tell him that it wasn't the best way to achieve his goal (much like the chaining her up to tell her he loved her). Dawn had told a drunken Spike that Buffy was hurt by his being with Anya and that translated to Buffy DID love him if only he could get her to admit it. She was the slayer and even injured she could have easily gotten him off of her (yes, she was shocked he attacked her and off her guard). When she did push him off it was like slapping someone in hysteria....he IMMEDIATELY came to his senses and was horrified by what he had done.
WORD! Spike had me on his side as soon as he said "I know you feel it when I'm in you".
WORD! Spike had me on his side as soon as he said "I know you feel it when I'm in you".
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
The only part about Xander in The Pack that I have issue with is AFTER the Hyena spirit is gone. The issue is with both Xander and Giles (actually the writers cause they were the ones that thought it was funny I guess) and that shared wink and a nudge moment when Giles snapped that Xander DID remember. If you think about it there are areas of comparison with Spike too in that Spike has a demon in him that effects his choices just as they Hyena did to Xander.
Kathleen, I remember reading the old The Pack discussion and I agree with what nmcil and Eowyn315 said: That telling the truth would do more harm than fix a non-issue. Buffy wasn't scarred after what Xander did, actually Willow was more hurt by Xander's harsh words than Buffy was about Xander coming on to her. And both girls eventually knew that it wasn't Xander's fault. Xander did ask them in the end of the episode if he'd done more that eating a pig, just to see if his actions did hurt his friends, but Buffy and Willow said nothing. It wasn't a big deal because both girls knew that Xander wouldn't do any of that to them when he's not possessed.
So, Giles keeping Xander's secret was actually a wise choice.
As for Spike, yes, after the soul, just like Angel, Spike shouldn't be blamed for what he had done soulless. But if Spike stayed soulless, then yes, it's his fault. He did that with free will, there was no possession.
Kathleen, I remember reading the old The Pack discussion and I agree with what nmcil and Eowyn315 said: That telling the truth would do more harm than fix a non-issue. Buffy wasn't scarred after what Xander did, actually Willow was more hurt by Xander's harsh words than Buffy was about Xander coming on to her. And both girls eventually knew that it wasn't Xander's fault. Xander did ask them in the end of the episode if he'd done more that eating a pig, just to see if his actions did hurt his friends, but Buffy and Willow said nothing. It wasn't a big deal because both girls knew that Xander wouldn't do any of that to them when he's not possessed.
So, Giles keeping Xander's secret was actually a wise choice.
As for Spike, yes, after the soul, just like Angel, Spike shouldn't be blamed for what he had done soulless. But if Spike stayed soulless, then yes, it's his fault. He did that with free will, there was no possession.
Sosa Lola -
Great post on the characterizations of Season 8 - I think that what many readers have with the comic book season is not so much how the characters are being written, but the lack of back story for Angel/Twangel - The incredible one issue shift from "Twilight" as the evil force throughout the entire 3 years plus and the Cosmic Sex reunion - It was just too much, too fast, and too provocative. All else of the entire season dims in contrast to what was introduced in the Brad Meltzer cycle. Buffy's choice to become a thief, the time-travel into the Fray Timeline, Dawn's transformations; all could be taken as "comic genre."
The HUGE difference that the BM cycle introduced was all about moral and ethical choices and personal character conduct - the actions that Buffy and Angel/Twangel engage in reflected some very disturbing themes. Is Buffy being manipulated by Angel/Twangel and that green glo? How are we to view Buffy allowing herself to engage sexually again with the very person that has been her enemy and the cause of so much pain, suffering, deaths and violence against herself, the woman that she took to her bed and helped relieve her own pain and loneliness with. All this comes into how readers responded to where BM and JW took the characters -and all that has followed has done very little, for a great many readers and fans, to justify or explain the actions of the characters. We have the Twilight LoveLALA Land follow-up - but that issues does little to satisfy the grave questions about "free will and control" from green glo. What we have in the Twilight Love Forever Realm does not give any real answers about who is directing Angel/Twangel. And even after all this time, we still don't know who the real super power players are and more importantly for the readers, like myself who make up a lot of the readership, we are still waiting for answers to all the moral and ethical questions that BM and JW brought into the season.
It's not so much that characters are being written so differently from the series, but that things in the comic book style of this season are always left "dangling" and we always seem to have to wait for the next issue. If someone had given me a novel to read, told me that I had to read 99% of the book before the Prime Story of the work is introduced, I would have thought it a very strange way to write a novel. I suppose mystery novels have a little of this quality, but one is given "mystery" as part of the story before the end. With this comic book season, and It may just be me, it's like a great big WTF? - huge plot change, complex moral, ethical and societal questions introduced, characters that don't seem to understand or care about all the things that happened in the first 99% of the story. How is this all going to be made to fit together, answer all those pesky morality questions and developed the story into some logical sequence in 5 or 6 issues?
Great post on the characterizations of Season 8 - I think that what many readers have with the comic book season is not so much how the characters are being written, but the lack of back story for Angel/Twangel - The incredible one issue shift from "Twilight" as the evil force throughout the entire 3 years plus and the Cosmic Sex reunion - It was just too much, too fast, and too provocative. All else of the entire season dims in contrast to what was introduced in the Brad Meltzer cycle. Buffy's choice to become a thief, the time-travel into the Fray Timeline, Dawn's transformations; all could be taken as "comic genre."
The HUGE difference that the BM cycle introduced was all about moral and ethical choices and personal character conduct - the actions that Buffy and Angel/Twangel engage in reflected some very disturbing themes. Is Buffy being manipulated by Angel/Twangel and that green glo? How are we to view Buffy allowing herself to engage sexually again with the very person that has been her enemy and the cause of so much pain, suffering, deaths and violence against herself, the woman that she took to her bed and helped relieve her own pain and loneliness with. All this comes into how readers responded to where BM and JW took the characters -and all that has followed has done very little, for a great many readers and fans, to justify or explain the actions of the characters. We have the Twilight LoveLALA Land follow-up - but that issues does little to satisfy the grave questions about "free will and control" from green glo. What we have in the Twilight Love Forever Realm does not give any real answers about who is directing Angel/Twangel. And even after all this time, we still don't know who the real super power players are and more importantly for the readers, like myself who make up a lot of the readership, we are still waiting for answers to all the moral and ethical questions that BM and JW brought into the season.
It's not so much that characters are being written so differently from the series, but that things in the comic book style of this season are always left "dangling" and we always seem to have to wait for the next issue. If someone had given me a novel to read, told me that I had to read 99% of the book before the Prime Story of the work is introduced, I would have thought it a very strange way to write a novel. I suppose mystery novels have a little of this quality, but one is given "mystery" as part of the story before the end. With this comic book season, and It may just be me, it's like a great big WTF? - huge plot change, complex moral, ethical and societal questions introduced, characters that don't seem to understand or care about all the things that happened in the first 99% of the story. How is this all going to be made to fit together, answer all those pesky morality questions and developed the story into some logical sequence in 5 or 6 issues?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
If I remember correctly, Buffy gives her understanding and perspective of this "possession theme" in "Gone"
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
nmcil, I agree with you about the Angel arc. If Angel was revealed to be Twilight way sooner and we saw more of his story, it would have worked better. But Joss had to hide him in a mask for the sake of the IDW comics. I wish DH bought the rights to Angel's characters when S8 first started so that Joss wouldn't have to hide Angel in a mask.
Aug 25 2010 12:05 am #167ps
Guest
Personally, I don't think Angel should have been Twilight to begin with. The character Twangel that DH presented to us is not the Angel we came to know in AtS or in the Angel comic.
Angel AtF is considered by many comic book aficionado's as the best continuation that has ever been put in comic book form. I don't believe DH would have written the story nearly as well as IDW did, so I'm glad IDW had the comic. Also, the artwork for Angel has been superior to anything in Buffy.
You should read Chris Ryall's Q&A with Angel fans on the IDW site. DH did not buy back the license for Angel, and IDW did not give it to them. Joss took it. I think it was a really shitty thing to do, and considering Brian Lynch had just gotten free of his obligations and was starting the Spike monthly, it looks like Spike fans are going to get buggered again.
Angel AtF is considered by many comic book aficionado's as the best continuation that has ever been put in comic book form. I don't believe DH would have written the story nearly as well as IDW did, so I'm glad IDW had the comic. Also, the artwork for Angel has been superior to anything in Buffy.
You should read Chris Ryall's Q&A with Angel fans on the IDW site. DH did not buy back the license for Angel, and IDW did not give it to them. Joss took it. I think it was a really shitty thing to do, and considering Brian Lynch had just gotten free of his obligations and was starting the Spike monthly, it looks like Spike fans are going to get buggered again.
Twilight without the mask persona would have been a very different story, it would have taken on a very different quality - there would have been all the vital back story that might have allowed for a real exploration of TwilightAngel/Twangel. But, IMO, the problems presented with Angel/Twangel in a mask did not really eliminate the treatment of his history or an exploration of the moral questions involved in his course of action. Had Joss Whedon and Scott Allie felt that this element in their 3 year plus series were and integral part of the series, I believe they could have brought that into the series. Instead, we got "Twilight The Mega Powerful & Mysterious" - followed by that Big Reveal and on to Cosmic Sex without one shred of attention to what came before. To me, and perhaps I am just a dumb and clueless comic book non-aficiando, but I was left with that WTF moment.
The "Riley...Commitment through Distance, Virtue through Sin" I think is a very interesting issue - Such a reflection of both the Riley-Sam relationship and the Buffy-Angel/Angelus relationship. And the more I look at those religious symbols, the more intriguing they become. Reading some Milton again today, and was blown away by the Book III "The Argument" and the potential connection of God and his "demanded justice of humans for their treading into the , become as Gods and the eating from the trees" God demands satisfaction of Divine Justice before his Grace can be extended to humankind. Is there a sacrifice that will be demanded for getting the world and realms back in balance, is Whistler playing the role of Lucifer in a conversion mirror world scenario? If you go with the history of Whistler and TPTB, not seeing what would happen with Buffy or all these possible future timelines, why is it so vital that Angel/Angelus follow this particular path? That last image of Whistler is very interesting sitting on the roof of the church next to the Cross and beneath the Full Moon with his hand up in what suggests the hand position often associated with Jesus Christ. What we have seen thus far is that Angel/Twangel and his actions allowed all those portals and demons to come into this world - was that the plan from Whistler's and TPTB or did Angel/Twangel change course?
Sure wish that I could post images here instead of having to go off site - I will post some of my scans over at flickr later.
The "Riley...Commitment through Distance, Virtue through Sin" I think is a very interesting issue - Such a reflection of both the Riley-Sam relationship and the Buffy-Angel/Angelus relationship. And the more I look at those religious symbols, the more intriguing they become. Reading some Milton again today, and was blown away by the Book III "The Argument" and the potential connection of God and his "demanded justice of humans for their treading into the , become as Gods and the eating from the trees" God demands satisfaction of Divine Justice before his Grace can be extended to humankind. Is there a sacrifice that will be demanded for getting the world and realms back in balance, is Whistler playing the role of Lucifer in a conversion mirror world scenario? If you go with the history of Whistler and TPTB, not seeing what would happen with Buffy or all these possible future timelines, why is it so vital that Angel/Angelus follow this particular path? That last image of Whistler is very interesting sitting on the roof of the church next to the Cross and beneath the Full Moon with his hand up in what suggests the hand position often associated with Jesus Christ. What we have seen thus far is that Angel/Twangel and his actions allowed all those portals and demons to come into this world - was that the plan from Whistler's and TPTB or did Angel/Twangel change course?
Sure wish that I could post images here instead of having to go off site - I will post some of my scans over at flickr later.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Personally, I don't think Angel should have been Twilight to begin with. The character Twangel that DH presented to us is not the Angel we came to know in AtS or in the Angel comic.
I think Angel can be Twilight give the right background -which we don't have. Who would have thought that dorky adorable Wesley would turn out to be bitter bad ass Wesley? We watched him develop into that person. Angel has enough of Big Picture mentality to become Twlight.
I think Angel can be Twilight give the right background -which we don't have. Who would have thought that dorky adorable Wesley would turn out to be bitter bad ass Wesley? We watched him develop into that person. Angel has enough of Big Picture mentality to become Twlight.
Do you think Angel/Angelus was seeing The Big Picture with his decision to take on the Circle of the Black Thorn? Considering those results and that LA is now back to where they started in the timeline, but totally changed from the experience via memories. TCotBT members of that period where killed, but we have to assume that forces with the power to send LA to a Hell/Demon Dimension, or to have manipulated time/space/reality on such a scale would consider the loss of those members insignificant. If Buffy's line in the "Satsu Love Danger" suggesting the "might have gone to Hell" (paraphrase) will come into play in the finale of this season or season 9 - there is a lot more involved in the LA Hell timeline. It could have been only the AI Team that was sent into a different reality or parallel world dimension. Had LA really disappeared, the world would have gone into utter chaos - Buffy "if" and her lines to Angel/Twangel before the Cosmic Sex also suggest that she and others had been looking for him.
I guess though, in the genre of fantasy, scifi and horror, the logic of natural law an universal physical laws don't really matter - LA could have gone bye-bye for that time, reappeared and the rest of the world's population could not much care or be effected by it.
I guess though, in the genre of fantasy, scifi and horror, the logic of natural law an universal physical laws don't really matter - LA could have gone bye-bye for that time, reappeared and the rest of the world's population could not much care or be effected by it.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 27 2010 08:29 am #171SpaceLord
Guest
I've just watched season 1-3 again and I must say it's not as good as I remember, to me those seasons are really carried by the villains and by that I mean they make the show fun to watch. We have the master for S1 who is a rather fun character not the greatest but still has some nice lines, then in S2 we have Spike of course who is a great villain with a great presence and lastly we have in S3 the Mayor who for some reason is a somewhat likeable character with a far greater depth than we see in later seasons (I guess Faith could be in there but somehow I don't feel her to be a villain but more completely and utterly lost).
As for the Bangel during this time it's just so much teen angst it's hard to believe people don't throw up over it. To me the biggest problem is Angel, how in the hell can you chase after a girl like Buffy when you should at least have the maturity of a 35-40 year old and still be considered a hero? I don't care how old he was when he was turned but the fact is that he has been around for over 200 years and is unable to keep his dick in check? Somehow watching these seasons again have made me seriously question the writers sanity. I mean there is a scene in S3 when Angel is pondering their relationship and takes up a notepad that Buffy has left at his place and you see how Buffy has written Buffy & Angel 4ewah on it just like you would a expect a teenager to do and it sure creeped me out.
I don't know about other fandoms since I have no real interests in them but I have come to believe that it's because the stories are severely lacking in the end, I can compare to me watching Babylon 5 season 1-4 recently and I have absolutely no need to read any fanfic because the story pretty much comes to an end and the characters have done what you would expect. I feel that JW instead of moving on with the characters just used them to tell the story even if the characters had evolved and you would seriously question if they would do such things except for the plot that needed it. I just think that this has gotten a lot worse with S8 comic.
As for Riley one shot, I'm having a hard time with the Angel part there since it's whistler doing the telling. I mean at the end of s2 he tells Buffy "no one saw it coming" how the fuck can you then trust them (him) to know what the fuck is coming if he does this? It seems that the PTB are not much in the way of power at all if they can't see that pedo Angel would lust after teen Buffy. Then we have the whole it's destiny with Bangel which of course is contradicts the whole "no one saw it coming" pick one and stick with it.
I would just like to close with saying that Niamh summed up a lot of it nicely in earlier posts.
As for the Bangel during this time it's just so much teen angst it's hard to believe people don't throw up over it. To me the biggest problem is Angel, how in the hell can you chase after a girl like Buffy when you should at least have the maturity of a 35-40 year old and still be considered a hero? I don't care how old he was when he was turned but the fact is that he has been around for over 200 years and is unable to keep his dick in check? Somehow watching these seasons again have made me seriously question the writers sanity. I mean there is a scene in S3 when Angel is pondering their relationship and takes up a notepad that Buffy has left at his place and you see how Buffy has written Buffy & Angel 4ewah on it just like you would a expect a teenager to do and it sure creeped me out.
I don't know about other fandoms since I have no real interests in them but I have come to believe that it's because the stories are severely lacking in the end, I can compare to me watching Babylon 5 season 1-4 recently and I have absolutely no need to read any fanfic because the story pretty much comes to an end and the characters have done what you would expect. I feel that JW instead of moving on with the characters just used them to tell the story even if the characters had evolved and you would seriously question if they would do such things except for the plot that needed it. I just think that this has gotten a lot worse with S8 comic.
As for Riley one shot, I'm having a hard time with the Angel part there since it's whistler doing the telling. I mean at the end of s2 he tells Buffy "no one saw it coming" how the fuck can you then trust them (him) to know what the fuck is coming if he does this? It seems that the PTB are not much in the way of power at all if they can't see that pedo Angel would lust after teen Buffy. Then we have the whole it's destiny with Bangel which of course is contradicts the whole "no one saw it coming" pick one and stick with it.
I would just like to close with saying that Niamh summed up a lot of it nicely in earlier posts.
Aug 28 2010 12:16 am #172SpaceLord
Guest
I'm half way through S4 now and watching it with a more critical eye I must say the love story with Riley seems like they just copied the one with Angel but changed characters. Not to mention how fas she falls in love with him, the first 4-5 episodes it's all about Parker then it becomes Riley and all of a sudden she is deeply and madly in love. I just don't buy it watching it this time around.
Not to mention how very naive she seems to be, for some one who has been through so much she seems to be rather stupid and trusting. I sort of like Riley as character but him in a relationship with Buffy is just a big snore and the way she is pretty much willing to risk eveyones life to save him after knowing him for a few months and with him being with the Initiative which just screams old Nazi experiment just seems flaky to me. The more I watch the less I like Buffy I'm sad to say.
Not to mention how very naive she seems to be, for some one who has been through so much she seems to be rather stupid and trusting. I sort of like Riley as character but him in a relationship with Buffy is just a big snore and the way she is pretty much willing to risk eveyones life to save him after knowing him for a few months and with him being with the Initiative which just screams old Nazi experiment just seems flaky to me. The more I watch the less I like Buffy I'm sad to say.
Not sure that it falls into liking it less, I still like both series, but what I think happens it that with time and all discussions and analysis, books, etc that current fans are a lot more critical in their interpretations. Plus, all the current fans have several years more of life experiences that change how they see the shows. I can't help but think that viewers who now are parents, especially if their children are girls, would have a very different perspective on the Bangel relationship now. Parents who did not have children when they first saw Buffy and Angel/Angelus could have seen the relationship primarily from the tragic romance but now a great many of them would ask "if that were my daughter?" They same holds true for the Initiative - having lived through the political and economic chaos of the last several years, this too. IMO, would effect the perspectives for many viewers.
Season 8 has only added to the level of critic fans impose on the Buffyverse. Season Six and Seven fundamentally changed the character of Buffy and from Season 5 on all the prime characters started significant changes with Willow, Spike starting their conversion paths from good/evil and evil/good. Xander started his own path of "growing up" and having to learn some hard lessons about himself. Season 8 Xander has grown up enough to fall in love with, what I think is a very good life partner for him, someone with whom he can share his life, work and who is his equal. Xander has reality smack him right in his face when he is confronted with the reversal of "send the evil murdering demon to hell" of the Acathla Cycle and his love for Anya.
Whistler being The Big Messanger and your point about TPTB and their history in the series is a big factor in how I am seeing the Riley issue - for all the symbols of Gods, Faith and Redemption - Angel/Angelus has taken a great deal on "faith." This issue has him, IMO, following Whistler's Plan yet the latest previews for Issue 36, seem to imply a future of ruin for the world and a war that was lost. Is that Angel/Twangel shown a "potential future" like Xander was on his wedding day?
Where the Buffyverse is now and where it is going, and how current fans respond, IMO, has a lot to do with the format that comic books have imposed - as a current fan and reader, one has to either adapt to this new style or always be somewhat disappointed or very much disappointed.
Take Buffy, this season seems to pay little attention or significance to what she learned and lived through in the series - did Buffy learn nothing from her experience with Angel/Angelus and Jenny Calendar? One minute she is in a life and death struggle with Angel/Twangel and the next she is falling into his arms and seemingly right back into the "I love him so much" it does not matter what has happened or the consequences of his actions, "it's Angel" after all. After all the changes we see in Buffy during the series, taking her back to this "Bangel" mind set does not work. It does not work without a very good reason and exploration of her character and why she takes this path - and we not not given those explainations. It is not enough to just say "Buffy loves him and the Universe planned it that way" or it is their "destiny." I don't think readers and fans of today are going to be satisfied with all these changes in Buffy & Angel/Angelus without all those "explainations and exploration of character." Unless you are a fan that just wants more Buffyverse and Angelverse any way you can get it, taking all that is presented in the comic book seasons is, IMO, not going to be particularly satisfying.
Season 8 has only added to the level of critic fans impose on the Buffyverse. Season Six and Seven fundamentally changed the character of Buffy and from Season 5 on all the prime characters started significant changes with Willow, Spike starting their conversion paths from good/evil and evil/good. Xander started his own path of "growing up" and having to learn some hard lessons about himself. Season 8 Xander has grown up enough to fall in love with, what I think is a very good life partner for him, someone with whom he can share his life, work and who is his equal. Xander has reality smack him right in his face when he is confronted with the reversal of "send the evil murdering demon to hell" of the Acathla Cycle and his love for Anya.
Whistler being The Big Messanger and your point about TPTB and their history in the series is a big factor in how I am seeing the Riley issue - for all the symbols of Gods, Faith and Redemption - Angel/Angelus has taken a great deal on "faith." This issue has him, IMO, following Whistler's Plan yet the latest previews for Issue 36, seem to imply a future of ruin for the world and a war that was lost. Is that Angel/Twangel shown a "potential future" like Xander was on his wedding day?
Where the Buffyverse is now and where it is going, and how current fans respond, IMO, has a lot to do with the format that comic books have imposed - as a current fan and reader, one has to either adapt to this new style or always be somewhat disappointed or very much disappointed.
Take Buffy, this season seems to pay little attention or significance to what she learned and lived through in the series - did Buffy learn nothing from her experience with Angel/Angelus and Jenny Calendar? One minute she is in a life and death struggle with Angel/Twangel and the next she is falling into his arms and seemingly right back into the "I love him so much" it does not matter what has happened or the consequences of his actions, "it's Angel" after all. After all the changes we see in Buffy during the series, taking her back to this "Bangel" mind set does not work. It does not work without a very good reason and exploration of her character and why she takes this path - and we not not given those explainations. It is not enough to just say "Buffy loves him and the Universe planned it that way" or it is their "destiny." I don't think readers and fans of today are going to be satisfied with all these changes in Buffy & Angel/Angelus without all those "explainations and exploration of character." Unless you are a fan that just wants more Buffyverse and Angelverse any way you can get it, taking all that is presented in the comic book seasons is, IMO, not going to be particularly satisfying.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 31 2010 10:25 pm #174SpaceLord
Guest
You are probably right Nmcil about us picking it apart now. I'm watching S5 now and I get this really bad feeling in the way that they treat Spike, it's almost like the soldiers in Iraq were doing to the Iraqi prisoners just very disturbing the way Buffy takes pleasure in inflicting pain on Spike. I mean first time I watched it was probably a little funny but now it just makes me think that she has a lot in common with those people who get off on torturing other people, I mean she is all about demons not being real and all to justify it but really that is pretty much how the Nazi's viewed the Jews as nothing more than vermin.
Then we have the whole making Spike pretty much comic relief in S5, apparently he forgot how to fight at all and is so weak compared to Buffy it makes me wonder how he didn't dust in S2 during their first fight.
Then we have the whole making Spike pretty much comic relief in S5, apparently he forgot how to fight at all and is so weak compared to Buffy it makes me wonder how he didn't dust in S2 during their first fight.
"You are probably right Nmcil about us picking it apart now. I'm watching S5 now and I get this really bad feeling in the way that they treat Spike, it's almost like the soldiers in Iraq were doing to the Iraqi prisoners just very disturbing the way Buffy takes pleasure in inflicting pain on Spike. I mean first time I watched it was probably a little funny but now it just makes me think that she has a lot in common with those people who get off on torturing other people, I mean she is all about demons not being real and all to justify it but really that is pretty much how the Nazi's viewed the Jews as nothing more than vermin."
The connections and reflections of the real world and the Buffyverse & Angelverse on TV and Season 8 is the reason that I am having such a hard time with Season 8. The Buffyverse has always been about the Real World applied to the Supernatural, it was never a show or story just for entertainment or "horror genre satisfaction." For me the "it's only a fantasy & entertainment" not to be taken and interpreted through the application of reflection of real life never worked. This interpretation and connection with the series & Season 8 would have been on the same level as how I experience Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, great literature and films, but that powerful personal connection to my real life. When Buffy beats on Spike or Angel/Twangel beats on Buffy & Satsu, it makes me think about all those victims of violence in abusive relationships. When BM has Buffy falls into the arms of Angel/Twangel after all the violence and abuse he has inflicted on them, I can't help but respond with "what the hell" is this suppose to say about the story and characters.
You take away the context of Season 7 and Buffy would become an extreme violent abuser, like the "Grand Worthy Public Face" of an abusive partner that hides his dirty secret, just like Buffy did. You take away the, IMO ill advised use of the AR plot vehicle, and Spike becomes so much more her victim. Granted, both characters become partners in their abusive relationship, but Buffy is, IMO, very much the control/motivator in the relationship. But I digress, the point is that the characters do reflect on a very powerful level the real world. We did not watch the Buffyverse for one hour every week and then just forget about it.
The connections and reflections of the real world and the Buffyverse & Angelverse on TV and Season 8 is the reason that I am having such a hard time with Season 8. The Buffyverse has always been about the Real World applied to the Supernatural, it was never a show or story just for entertainment or "horror genre satisfaction." For me the "it's only a fantasy & entertainment" not to be taken and interpreted through the application of reflection of real life never worked. This interpretation and connection with the series & Season 8 would have been on the same level as how I experience Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, great literature and films, but that powerful personal connection to my real life. When Buffy beats on Spike or Angel/Twangel beats on Buffy & Satsu, it makes me think about all those victims of violence in abusive relationships. When BM has Buffy falls into the arms of Angel/Twangel after all the violence and abuse he has inflicted on them, I can't help but respond with "what the hell" is this suppose to say about the story and characters.
You take away the context of Season 7 and Buffy would become an extreme violent abuser, like the "Grand Worthy Public Face" of an abusive partner that hides his dirty secret, just like Buffy did. You take away the, IMO ill advised use of the AR plot vehicle, and Spike becomes so much more her victim. Granted, both characters become partners in their abusive relationship, but Buffy is, IMO, very much the control/motivator in the relationship. But I digress, the point is that the characters do reflect on a very powerful level the real world. We did not watch the Buffyverse for one hour every week and then just forget about it.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 20 2010 12:12 am #176Belle
Guest
Hello. Just wanted to add my two cents on any and all topics that might have been discussed.
First off, I'd just like to say that, like a previous poster, I'm more of a Spike fan rather than a Spuffy fan. I enjoy reading Spuffy fanfiction but only if Buffy is more mature and gets a clue. I'm actually more fond of the Spike/Dawn friendship stories rather than Buffy/Spike.
To be honest, I have to agree with the writers on the Buffy/Spike relationship. It was abusive and not at all healthly for either of them. In the beginning of S6 it started off as a tenative friendship which would have been great. From that they could have possibly moved onto a more healthly relationship but they jumped the gun and their first intercourse was rough and violent. What little start of a friendship they had was destroyed by the two of them having sex. Well actually thinking back, it was probably the kisses between them that started the downward spiral into madness. The kisses gave Spike a false hope, crumb, whatever he wanted from her. After that he pursued her harder because he figured there had to be something there otherwise she wouldn't have kissed him. Unfortunately people aren't perfect and we do tend to use people though sometimes we don't mean to. However, throughout S6 you can see that's all Buffy does with Spike is use him either to make herself feel, because she so numb, or as a punching bag to work off her frustrations. And he was incredibly stupid as to let her walk all over him like that. I may not know personally what being in love is like, but I've read enough and seen enough couples to get the gist. And I've got to say regardless of how much you love someone, you should never allow them to beat on you whether physically or verbally. Doing so does not help either party, but rather hurts both. Spike took advantage of Buffy vulnerability when she turned to him after she was ripped from heaven as a way to get her to love him and Buffy took advantage of Spike's feeling for her to use him to make herself feel. And get real people! You can't use sex to make someone fall in love with you! There has to at least be a liking from both people for sex to even affect emotionally. From the start of those kisses that farce of an affair was doomed.
I'd like to voice my own opinion on the whole Seeing Red episode. I don't condone what Spike did. I think it was extremely wrong what he did and it hurt both of them. However, I do not think of that scene as an attempt of rape. I agree with Kathleen. Rape is about power and generally lust is involved there somewhere. And its to my understanding that rapists do not stop after being kicked off. If anything that just makes them go at you more. So Spike stopping after Buffy had kicked him into a wall, his shocked expression, and his running away should clue people into the fact that what happened was not what he'd meant to happen. At least that's what I think.
Next topic. Okay, I've read a lot of stories about the end of Chosen and Buffy saying she loved Spike and his, "No you don't but thanks for saying it" response. I gotta say that I agree with Spike. Buffy may have loved him a little but not the way she was implying there at that last moment. If Buffy loved Spike at all during S7, then it was as a comrade and friend, but that's it. Nothing during season 7 indicates that she loves him that way. Okay she saved him from the First (she'd have done that for anyone, especially if the First was looking to use them). Spike has always had her back during an apolcalypse (i can't spell! XD ) for one reason or another. So her worrying over the whole deal with Giles and Wood is understandable. That scene in whichever episdoe where Spike gives his "You're the One" speech, do you notice that Buffy turns away from Spike when he goes to touch her. Normally, if you love someone you lean into their touch, you don't flinch away from them. And then when they get back to the house and the discussion is going on about how it was the best night of Spike's life and how they were both there. The thing about that conversation is that I think Spike is looking for a little hope. He wants it to have meant something to her. Buffy saying she was there to caused his hope to rise and so of course he would ask what that meant only to get the response "I don't know, does it have to mean anything?". Did he not just say it meant something to him and now she doesn't want it to mean anything. *rolls eyes* This is another thing I'm confused about. When you're going into life or death situations you don't put things off til later because there might not BE a later. So WHY would she say "maybe when..."?? I filled the rest of that sentence with "this is all over". I just don't understand why you would want to put things off. And then there's the kissing scene with Angel. She hasn't seen him since that time after she was resurrected. It was my understanding that seeing him hadn't gone so well. So why the sudden kissing?? And the basking??? That little scene would be enough for me to know that she didn't really love Spike. When you're interested in someone or in LOVE with someone you do not just kiss your EX because he's timely, first love or not. That just tells me that you're not all that serious about being in love with the other person. I know that sometimes its more complicated that that, but they had not been together for years now, and suddenly there was kissing? Sorry but that right there just tells me she still hung up on Angel and probably always will be.
Am I ranting?? I don't mean to be ranting.
Oh, the whole Angel/Buffy relationship doesn't make sense to me either. I don't think you can love someone, and I mean really love someone with all your heart, without knowing them. So Buffy and Angel's relationship which pretty much dealt with him being mysterious and whatnot and them both hardly having time together isn't really the bases for a good relationship. I think they went out on what? one date? I've never really understood the attraction there.
But like I said earlier, I'm more a Spike fan. I've glimpsed the comics for both Angel and Buffy. After hearing that Buffy slept with a slayer, I lost complete interest in what was happening in the Buffy-verse. I've gotten the comics that feature Spike as the main character and I've read the lastest of Buffy (because Spike was in it), but I honestly don't think that Buffy and Spike will get together and I'm kind of hoping that they don't. I think I've seen enough damage done between the two, and I'd much rather see Spike with someone else. I don't really like him being second when it comes to the women he falls for. If I'd been Buffy, I'd have fallen for Spike rather than Angel. Angel's whole popping up when something was happening and then disappearing without helping would have pissed me off. And I mean post-chip Spike, because lets face it, Spike pre-chip was evil and killing people.
I'm really looking forward to reading the new mini-series of Spike they have coming out. I already like the characters that have been making up his own team. Kinda wish they'd have just given him his own series like they did Angel but on well. If Spike goes back into the Buffy comics I might see about getting them but don't know.
Well that's all I've got to say! =D Hopefully I didn't offend anyone it anything that I said. Ta!
Sep 20 2010 12:14 am #177Belle
Guest
Oh I forgot to say...even if Spike and Buffy don't get together I'll still continue to read fanfiction because there are a lot of people who are real good at writing and I so love to read a good story with my favorite characters. Yes, only read because my writing sucks. :P
Belle - It's a very good rant. And I have to agree with you - nothing said more about Buffy's continued Bangel Baggage than that kissing scene - even if it was done as light comedy, and was intended as Joss Whedon stated to show Buffy's confused emotional status - that kiss just screamed "I still love Angel."
Regarding your comments about Buffy turning away from Spike in their empty house scene - again, clear sign that Buffy is emotionally distraught and closed off - but that, IMO, is used in the scene as a very important plot point to show the contrast to their ending and the cleansing and healing that Spike brings to her. What seems to have been forgotten in all this Bangelitus of the ending phases of season 8, is that Buffy comes back into her strength and heroine status because of Spike.
You make an excellent point about their Hallway/Doorway confessional scene - I think that is one of the saddest moments of the entire series - Spike revealing the depth and truth of his life, never being close to another human being. Buffy's "I don't know, does it have to mean anything?" is such a heart breaking response to his "it means everything to me." It meant so much to him, their night together, that he would rather have had her kill him than to have her laugh at him and reject his love. Spike and Buffy both had such deep emotional scars -
Well, at least the devoted Spuffy fans do have Joss Whedon saying that Buffy did love Spike, what his current ideas are now will be revealed very soon. It will be such a pity to cast away all that great and really powerful story that was the journey of Buffy and Spike together, destroying and then resurrecting themselves on the path they travelled together.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 26 2010 01:48 am #179ladycat713
Guest
Does Buffy learn? Apparabtly not. She didn't learn that starting up with someone who is in love with you is encouraging them . With Spike the encouragement started with kissing and with Satsu it started with sex (and considering that Buffy had given no indication that her interests lay with women at all , that's one heck of an encouragement) .Buffy has also not learned that Angel is bad news for her .
Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen is extreme ick. Also ick is her saying she couldn't risk him (yet apparantly could risk everyone in her house) and implying that they could have a future together even though he had one extreme dog with a bone attitude going on(he doesn't really want he just wants her to be property of his). I don't blame Spike for not believing her, it could be easily said that she sent Angel away to keep him safe and chose Spike to die in his place (because really who else was she going to get to wear it, all the mutineers would rebel again if she chose Faith or Dawn saying it was out of revenge and choosing herself would be suicide) that's why I don't like fanfics where Buffy gets all angry that Spike didn't seek her .There's no reason for him to think he'd be welcome and season 8 seems to confirm that.
I don't think that Spike is much better at make Buffy a beter person (if only she'd let him). Unfortunately she seems to prefer being weak.
If it weren't for the excellant fanfic writers and other fans , I'd give up on Buffy completely because comic Buffy is not someone I want to know exists much less read about.
Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen is extreme ick. Also ick is her saying she couldn't risk him (yet apparantly could risk everyone in her house) and implying that they could have a future together even though he had one extreme dog with a bone attitude going on(he doesn't really want he just wants her to be property of his). I don't blame Spike for not believing her, it could be easily said that she sent Angel away to keep him safe and chose Spike to die in his place (because really who else was she going to get to wear it, all the mutineers would rebel again if she chose Faith or Dawn saying it was out of revenge and choosing herself would be suicide) that's why I don't like fanfics where Buffy gets all angry that Spike didn't seek her .There's no reason for him to think he'd be welcome and season 8 seems to confirm that.
I don't think that Spike is much better at make Buffy a beter person (if only she'd let him). Unfortunately she seems to prefer being weak.
If it weren't for the excellant fanfic writers and other fans , I'd give up on Buffy completely because comic Buffy is not someone I want to know exists much less read about.
Sep 26 2010 07:14 am #180ladycat713
Guest
Sorry the above post should've said I do think Spike is much better at making Buffy a better person but she doesn't seem to want to be a stronger person.
What I never understood is why Joss Whedon as he stated in his commentary about the last scenes that involved Buffy with Angel and then Buffy with Spike, felt that he had to depict as "confused" or in conflict about these two men in her life. We just spent all that time with Riley and then Spike as love objects of Buffy. Buffy stated over and over that she loved Riley and that she trusted Riley and opened up to him more than anyone in her life, ever. Why did Joss Whedon still insist that she was in conflict about Angel/Angelus? And his script was not about confusion regarding Angel/Angelus - it was very much about Buffy still wanting him and loving him. Plus, Buffy gives that big Shanshu reference about not seeing Spike: BUFFY: What was the highlight of our relationship? when you broke up with me or when I killed you? I?m well aware of my stellar history with guys and no, I don?t see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike
What she does end all this with:
ANGEL: Any thoughts on who might enjoy? do I have to go with the cookie analogy?
BUFFY: I?m not really thinking that far ahead. That?s kinda the point.
ANGEL: I?ll go start working on the second front. Make sure I don?t have to use it.
(heads off)
BUFFY: (calling after him) Angel. (he pauses) I do? sometimes think that far ahead.
ANGEL: Sometimes is something.
BUFFY: It?ll be a long time coming. Years, if ever.
ANGEL: (smiles) I ain?t getting any older? (exit)
Why does Joss Whedon keep this Bangel relationship going? It does not show Buffy as a strong and independent woman, what is does show is a young girl and then a young woman who is anything but strong in a vital part of her life - her emotional dependence on the first man that ever came into her life as an object of love.
And here we are after all these years and Buffy's journey of growth as a woman and heroine/warrior - falling into the arms of this same love object, after all the damage and even right after what must have been in her mind a "fight to the death" as she tried to impale him with that tree. Jump to the latest issue, Buffy still willing to tell Spike, that she is not the mature woman in control of her life and emotions - She and Angel/Angelus were "set-up" and it was not there fault - I only hope that Spike is the voice of Joss Whedon whe he answers her:
Spike: "Nobody said it was except me right now to your face" and I am not saying this to be vindictive but because Buffy really needs to hear this. Buffy was not being "mind washed nor did she become a zombie sex vessel, she made the choice to accept what Angel/Twangel was telling her. What Buffy needs is to grow up and leave behind all this "true love and only love" prison that she keeps herself in. It is Angel/Twangel sugar words about let's be happy at last and you can't be happy with anyone else that put her in the "yes" mode - let's forget all about the death and destruction and chaos - 'cause I want to be happy.
It's interesting, and I hope a good sign, that Spike and Xander both tell Buffy some hard truths about herself and the choices that she has made.
What she does end all this with:
ANGEL: Any thoughts on who might enjoy? do I have to go with the cookie analogy?
BUFFY: I?m not really thinking that far ahead. That?s kinda the point.
ANGEL: I?ll go start working on the second front. Make sure I don?t have to use it.
(heads off)
BUFFY: (calling after him) Angel. (he pauses) I do? sometimes think that far ahead.
ANGEL: Sometimes is something.
BUFFY: It?ll be a long time coming. Years, if ever.
ANGEL: (smiles) I ain?t getting any older? (exit)
Why does Joss Whedon keep this Bangel relationship going? It does not show Buffy as a strong and independent woman, what is does show is a young girl and then a young woman who is anything but strong in a vital part of her life - her emotional dependence on the first man that ever came into her life as an object of love.
And here we are after all these years and Buffy's journey of growth as a woman and heroine/warrior - falling into the arms of this same love object, after all the damage and even right after what must have been in her mind a "fight to the death" as she tried to impale him with that tree. Jump to the latest issue, Buffy still willing to tell Spike, that she is not the mature woman in control of her life and emotions - She and Angel/Angelus were "set-up" and it was not there fault - I only hope that Spike is the voice of Joss Whedon whe he answers her:
Spike: "Nobody said it was except me right now to your face" and I am not saying this to be vindictive but because Buffy really needs to hear this. Buffy was not being "mind washed nor did she become a zombie sex vessel, she made the choice to accept what Angel/Twangel was telling her. What Buffy needs is to grow up and leave behind all this "true love and only love" prison that she keeps herself in. It is Angel/Twangel sugar words about let's be happy at last and you can't be happy with anyone else that put her in the "yes" mode - let's forget all about the death and destruction and chaos - 'cause I want to be happy.
It's interesting, and I hope a good sign, that Spike and Xander both tell Buffy some hard truths about herself and the choices that she has made.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 27 2010 11:39 pm #182ladycat713
Guest
Amen to all of that Nmcil!
That's one of the reasons I love fanfics so much. In fanfics people are willing to let Buffy (and all the Scoobies really) grow, mature and take responsibilities for thier actions. Joss seems to be decidely unwilling to do so and it's to the detriment of the character not to mention anyone who really believes that Buffy is a feminist icon.Buffy's no more of a feminist character than Keith Moon is an example of clean and sober.
That's one of the reasons I love fanfics so much. In fanfics people are willing to let Buffy (and all the Scoobies really) grow, mature and take responsibilities for thier actions. Joss seems to be decidely unwilling to do so and it's to the detriment of the character not to mention anyone who really believes that Buffy is a feminist icon.Buffy's no more of a feminist character than Keith Moon is an example of clean and sober.
Sep 28 2010 03:02 am #183Spikez_tart
NM - actually Buffy never tells Riley (or I think anyone in Sunnydale) that she loves Riley. Including and especially Riley. She tells Angel that she's involved with someone she loves with all her heart. The presumption is that she means Riley who she's involved with at the time, but maybe Joss was playing a little trick and meant Spike who's lurking around. A little subconcious utterance by the Buffster? This is all going down about the same time that she argues with Riley that if she wanted someone strong and whatever she'd "be dating Spike."
I used to like Angel and I'm beginning to hate him a lot.
anyone who really believes that Buffy is a feminist icon - is she supposed to be a new wave feminist - works for a living, never has kids, but wears lipstick and cute outfits?
I used to like Angel and I'm beginning to hate him a lot.
anyone who really believes that Buffy is a feminist icon - is she supposed to be a new wave feminist - works for a living, never has kids, but wears lipstick and cute outfits?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
There is that episode when everyone goes to, I think it is Xander's, even Giles and Buffy, Willow and Anya are sharing the bed - the conversation that they have is Buffy telling the other two women how she loves Riley - I wish I knew the episode so that I could look up the script. But Buffy does say that she is has fallen big time for Riley -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 29 2010 03:46 am #185Spikez_tart
I knew I would get in trouble. Do you mean Goodbye Iowa? I don't think we have to accept anything Buffy says while wearing her yummy sushi pajamas. :)
Buffy: I'll try and remember that. (pause) It's too late, anyway. I'm
already at the "I hurt when he hurts. I smile when he smiles" stage.
Anya: (whispers) I hate that part.
Buffy: I'll just have to make it work.
Romantic, but still something's lacking. She'll "have to make it work." Sounds a little grim.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 28 2013 02:33 am #186Crazy_Cat_Lady402@Fanfiction.net
Guest
No matter what there wil always be die hard Spuffy fans who will always write Spuffy Fanfiction! There is no way ever Will I ship anything other than Spuffy They belong together!!!!!
I am so grateful for all the excellent Buffyverse and Spuffy writers - I have been doing a super big time reading of some of the very early stories and some of my favorite writers. I also fell into reading of a lot of enigmaticblue works again from a "recommends list" and fell in love all over. It had been a very long time that I had read her works an I enjoyed them very much. I did the same with some of the works of slaymesoftly and plan on doing a big reading again of the early Spuffy writings from Isabelle; she was such a popular writer in the earlier Buffyverse FF era - we don't see much mention of her work at all now.
Anyway - the comic books have really changed how I relate to Angel now. I just watched the episode when Buffy sends off the Gem of Amara to him and all I could think was what a dope she was sending him that ring. That episode tells so much about Angel and his emotional needs - For Angel, it's all about him his guilt and need to torture himself and try to atone for his life as Angelus - Sorry that there are so many fans wanted to see the Bangel romance as the primary force and vital element of Angel's love for Buffy. Buffy is not the Numero Uno in the Angel Life Priority List.
Are there still a lot of Bangel FF being written now? I don't understand why Dark Horse and Joss Whedon went with that Twilight Time/Buffy Sex Vessel theme - It makes little sense to me because I think it did a lot of damage to the fandom. I know that I can't much stand Angel now and that watching that episode made me realize just how much the comic books effected how I relate to Angel now. He totally comes across as an extremely damaged individual but where I once had a lot of respect and sympathy for him, now all I see is a character who keeps falling into the same patterns of making so many mistakes because he places his own agendas and desires before all else.
Take his choice to follow Whistler and that brutal and violent plan - he needs to be The Hero & Champion and save the world but there is also a hell of a lot of I want to protect Buffy in his choice to follow Whistler. How beating Buffy down is helpful I have yet to figure out. How I wish that anyone from Dark Horse or even Joss Whedon would explain this premise to us. The only thing that I connect with the Beat Down idea is that Buffy will be forced to discover again what makes her a Slayer/Chosen One Warrior and will fight her way back to her position/status of free will, great inner strength, and final independence & healing from her early Sunnydale experience with Angel/Angelus.
James Marsters shows again what a great interpretation and performance of Spike he did - he just took over any of the scenes he played. There are some great Spike snark lines in this episode. Looking back again, I came away with the impression that Angel's character is treated with a pretty heavy hand and that his "hero/Champion" is rather forced on the viewers. In my opinion, the dramatic impact and power of his story is not served well with his "fiery" take down of Marcus. While it works great with a symbolism/metaphor of the ring, his decision to not take the easy way out, and the cleansing of fire; that "fire" leap did not work for me - never mind the logic that he would have been burned very badly to even with just that short time he was on fire and it does not show in the fight scene.
But this is nmcil/fan post Twilight Time Angel and the comic books have made big changes for how I see Angel.
Apr 28 2013 09:16 pm #188Spikez_tart
I think Joss got excited because he was doing a comic and there were no money limitations and he went crazy thinking he could do anything he wanted. And of course since he had no limits it blew up and he forgot about the normal everyday Buffy parts that we all loved. It seems having those limits in the TV show forced him to be more creative. He has pulled back for S9 and the comic is much better for it.
Also, I suspect he never really liked the Spike character (or possibly Marsters?) all that much and Spike just took over everything and made Joss's sainted Angel look bad. Very sick of Angel at this point. Every time you turn around someone is making him do something bad against his will. Couldn't he have locked down that nasty soul by this time?
Also, I suspect he never really liked the Spike character (or possibly Marsters?) all that much and Spike just took over everything and made Joss's sainted Angel look bad. Very sick of Angel at this point. Every time you turn around someone is making him do something bad against his will. Couldn't he have locked down that nasty soul by this time?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I think Joss got excited because he was doing a comic and there were no money limitations and he went crazy thinking he could do anything he wanted. And of course since he had no limits it blew up and he forgot about the normal everyday Buffy parts that we all loved. It seems having those limits in the TV show forced him to be more creative. He has pulled back for S9 and the comic is much better for it.
Also, I suspect he never really liked the Spike character (or possibly Marsters?) all that much and Spike just took over everything and made Joss's sainted Angel look bad. Very sick of Angel at this point. Every time you turn around someone is making him do something bad against his will. Couldn't he have locked down that nasty soul by this time?
I read somewhere that Spike was supposed to be a one episode throwaway character but the fans loved him and the network told Joss to keep him. I think he has some resentment for the character of Spike because of that. He had a vision of what Spike was supposed to be and others interfered with it. And I think because of that he won't give us fans what we want. A happy Spuffy ending. It's his way of thumbing his nose at us for making him keep Spike around in the first place.
I always had a problem with Angel because of his mission of redemption. It got too many good people killed. Doyle, Cordy, Fred, Wes, Gunn, Drogyn. All of them died trying to help Angel redeem himself and the jerk still goes bad. Not to mention the damage done to Lorne and Connor. Not only that but it seems that Angel never learned an important lesson. You can say you're sorry until the cows come home but if you don't change your behavior it doesn't matter what you say. To truly atone for what he had done he needed to be much more selfless than he was. He needed to put others first and he never did. Guilt is all well and good but if all you do is focus on your feelings of guilt and do nothing about it you aren't doing anyone any good. Once he moved to LA he even stopped patrolling. He waited for clients to come to him. How is that doing good? Is that honestly how a champion of the powers is supposed to act? His actions in the comics make me want to stake him myself. Why he keeps getting a free pass from everyone is beyond me. How much damage is enough? When will someone finally say that having him on their side causes more pain and suffering than good? Allowing him to live puts untold millions in danger. Simply because he can't see past his own ego.
Also, I suspect he never really liked the Spike character (or possibly Marsters?) all that much and Spike just took over everything and made Joss's sainted Angel look bad. Very sick of Angel at this point. Every time you turn around someone is making him do something bad against his will. Couldn't he have locked down that nasty soul by this time?
I read somewhere that Spike was supposed to be a one episode throwaway character but the fans loved him and the network told Joss to keep him. I think he has some resentment for the character of Spike because of that. He had a vision of what Spike was supposed to be and others interfered with it. And I think because of that he won't give us fans what we want. A happy Spuffy ending. It's his way of thumbing his nose at us for making him keep Spike around in the first place.
I always had a problem with Angel because of his mission of redemption. It got too many good people killed. Doyle, Cordy, Fred, Wes, Gunn, Drogyn. All of them died trying to help Angel redeem himself and the jerk still goes bad. Not to mention the damage done to Lorne and Connor. Not only that but it seems that Angel never learned an important lesson. You can say you're sorry until the cows come home but if you don't change your behavior it doesn't matter what you say. To truly atone for what he had done he needed to be much more selfless than he was. He needed to put others first and he never did. Guilt is all well and good but if all you do is focus on your feelings of guilt and do nothing about it you aren't doing anyone any good. Once he moved to LA he even stopped patrolling. He waited for clients to come to him. How is that doing good? Is that honestly how a champion of the powers is supposed to act? His actions in the comics make me want to stake him myself. Why he keeps getting a free pass from everyone is beyond me. How much damage is enough? When will someone finally say that having him on their side causes more pain and suffering than good? Allowing him to live puts untold millions in danger. Simply because he can't see past his own ego.
Apr 29 2013 03:31 pm #190slaymesoftly
Moderator
I think Joss got excited because he was doing a comic and there were no money limitations and he went crazy thinking he could do anything he wanted. And of course since he had no limits it blew up and he forgot about the normal everyday Buffy parts that we all loved. It seems having those limits in the TV show forced him to be more creative. He has pulled back for S9 and the comic is much better for it.
Also, I suspect he never really liked the Spike character (or possibly Marsters?) all that much and Spike just took over everything and made Joss's sainted Angel look bad. Very sick of Angel at this point. Every time you turn around someone is making him do something bad against his will. Couldn't he have locked down that nasty soul by this time?
I read somewhere that Spike was supposed to be a one episode throwaway character but the fans loved him and the network told Joss to keep him. I think he has some resentment for the character of Spike because of that. He had a vision of what Spike was supposed to be and others interfered with it. And I think because of that he won't give us fans what we want. A happy Spuffy ending. It's his way of thumbing his nose at us for making him keep Spike around in the first place.
I always had a problem with Angel because of his mission of redemption. It got too many good people killed. Doyle, Cordy, Fred, Wes, Gunn, Drogyn. All of them died trying to help Angel redeem himself and the jerk still goes bad. Not to mention the damage done to Lorne and Connor. Not only that but it seems that Angel never learned an important lesson. You can say you're sorry until the cows come home but if you don't change your behavior it doesn't matter what you say. To truly atone for what he had done he needed to be much more selfless than he was. He needed to put others first and he never did. Guilt is all well and good but if all you do is focus on your feelings of guilt and do nothing about it you aren't doing anyone any good. Once he moved to LA he even stopped patrolling. He waited for clients to come to him. How is that doing good? Is that honestly how a champion of the powers is supposed to act? His actions in the comics make me want to stake him myself. Why he keeps getting a free pass from everyone is beyond me. How much damage is enough? When will someone finally say that having him on their side causes more pain and suffering than good? Allowing him to live puts untold millions in danger. Simply because he can't see past his own ego.
Well said. Angel's character has gone far beyond the layers that most of the Buffyverse characters all have, and really into almost villain status (and not just when he's being manipulated or soulless). I have been enjoying the Angel/Faith comic overall, but he's still very self-centered and causing a lot of damage by his insistence on bringing Giles back. As if fixing that one thing that he did wrong is going to make up for what Twilight did.
I'd really love to know the real, full story of Spike/James and Joss. On the one hand, can totally see Joss being pissed off at being told "the fans love this character - dont kill him off", on the other hand, he could easily have sabotaged that love just by writing Spike in a way that made him less attractive from then on. Which he didn't. He gave Spike a wonderful arc (intentional or not) and let him go out a hero. Asked about how he felt about Joss and Spike, James was quoted once as saying "Joss gave me a chance to shine" - so he appreciated being allowed to remain in the role and build it. I'm sure (in fact I think I read somewhere) that Joss wasn't too happy about being told to bring Spike over to Angel (or it would be cancelled?), which may have something to do with what most of us felt was a bit of character regression there. On the other hand, it was Angel's show, so Spike shouldn't have been allowed to come in and take over from Angel or from the other characters who'd been there right along and made the show what it was. And he still managed to get a fair amount of screen time and go out a hero, so I dunno. I don't think Joss cares enough about ships to carry any resentment he may have had about being forced to keep and use Spike into the comics. He just doesn't want the Buffy comic to be a romance novel with pictures. IMHO, anyway. We won't get our happy Spuffy ending because that's not really the focus of the character and her life. Important - yes, because she is a woman, and she does love, but she's first and foremost a hero and relationships have to take second place to her calling.
Also, I suspect he never really liked the Spike character (or possibly Marsters?) all that much and Spike just took over everything and made Joss's sainted Angel look bad. Very sick of Angel at this point. Every time you turn around someone is making him do something bad against his will. Couldn't he have locked down that nasty soul by this time?
I read somewhere that Spike was supposed to be a one episode throwaway character but the fans loved him and the network told Joss to keep him. I think he has some resentment for the character of Spike because of that. He had a vision of what Spike was supposed to be and others interfered with it. And I think because of that he won't give us fans what we want. A happy Spuffy ending. It's his way of thumbing his nose at us for making him keep Spike around in the first place.
I always had a problem with Angel because of his mission of redemption. It got too many good people killed. Doyle, Cordy, Fred, Wes, Gunn, Drogyn. All of them died trying to help Angel redeem himself and the jerk still goes bad. Not to mention the damage done to Lorne and Connor. Not only that but it seems that Angel never learned an important lesson. You can say you're sorry until the cows come home but if you don't change your behavior it doesn't matter what you say. To truly atone for what he had done he needed to be much more selfless than he was. He needed to put others first and he never did. Guilt is all well and good but if all you do is focus on your feelings of guilt and do nothing about it you aren't doing anyone any good. Once he moved to LA he even stopped patrolling. He waited for clients to come to him. How is that doing good? Is that honestly how a champion of the powers is supposed to act? His actions in the comics make me want to stake him myself. Why he keeps getting a free pass from everyone is beyond me. How much damage is enough? When will someone finally say that having him on their side causes more pain and suffering than good? Allowing him to live puts untold millions in danger. Simply because he can't see past his own ego.
Well said. Angel's character has gone far beyond the layers that most of the Buffyverse characters all have, and really into almost villain status (and not just when he's being manipulated or soulless). I have been enjoying the Angel/Faith comic overall, but he's still very self-centered and causing a lot of damage by his insistence on bringing Giles back. As if fixing that one thing that he did wrong is going to make up for what Twilight did.
I'd really love to know the real, full story of Spike/James and Joss. On the one hand, can totally see Joss being pissed off at being told "the fans love this character - dont kill him off", on the other hand, he could easily have sabotaged that love just by writing Spike in a way that made him less attractive from then on. Which he didn't. He gave Spike a wonderful arc (intentional or not) and let him go out a hero. Asked about how he felt about Joss and Spike, James was quoted once as saying "Joss gave me a chance to shine" - so he appreciated being allowed to remain in the role and build it. I'm sure (in fact I think I read somewhere) that Joss wasn't too happy about being told to bring Spike over to Angel (or it would be cancelled?), which may have something to do with what most of us felt was a bit of character regression there. On the other hand, it was Angel's show, so Spike shouldn't have been allowed to come in and take over from Angel or from the other characters who'd been there right along and made the show what it was. And he still managed to get a fair amount of screen time and go out a hero, so I dunno. I don't think Joss cares enough about ships to carry any resentment he may have had about being forced to keep and use Spike into the comics. He just doesn't want the Buffy comic to be a romance novel with pictures. IMHO, anyway. We won't get our happy Spuffy ending because that's not really the focus of the character and her life. Important - yes, because she is a woman, and she does love, but she's first and foremost a hero and relationships have to take second place to her calling.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Apr 30 2013 05:02 am #191Spikez_tart
You'll never get happy Spuffy out of Joss since his motto is to never give the fans what they want. :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
You'll never get happy Spuffy out of Joss since his motto is to never give the fans what they want. :)
Exactly! I can only be thankful for all the hard work done by our wonderful fanfic writers, sadly a dwindling breed, but like nmcil12 I too am rediscovering the joys of early works. There's plenty of gold in them thar hills!
Exactly! I can only be thankful for all the hard work done by our wonderful fanfic writers, sadly a dwindling breed, but like nmcil12 I too am rediscovering the joys of early works. There's plenty of gold in them thar hills!
slaymesoftly on Joss:
"He just doesn't want the Buffy comic to be a romance novel with pictures. IMHO, anyway. We won't get our happy Spuffy ending because that's not really the focus of the character and her life. Important - yes, because she is a woman, and she does love, but she's first and foremost a hero and relationships have to take second place to her calling."
I like this description very much - it's a great fit.
The more of the comic books I've read the more I dislike them. It's not the changes so much as the lack of story support for the changes - but I guess that with the comic book genre; that's just the way this medium works due to the limited page space. Since I don't come from a history of reading comic books, I have no idea how other franchises handled the "vital information" of the story elements - but with this series there is so much information left out of the story. Even the most fundamental element, the entire premise of The Twilight Time; this phorphecy of total chaos and destruction for humanity, is never really explained - why could they not have done a one-shot to explain the origins of the Twilight Prophecy. It would have been such a simple thing to do a one-shot to give the readers vital information on BS8 events.
It's really important to me - I want to know how much free will Buffy had when she goes from what she saw as mortal combat into falling into Angel's arms and escape into his promised joy for her life. All we get from the Dark Horse creative team is that she was not totally under the control of the Twilight Force as a puppet is control by the puppet master. We know that the Twilight Force was channeling her emotions from her early Sunnydale experiences with Angel but did Buffy have free will to make a different choice? Since the following season puts Buffy as "self betrayal" status, is this the final answer on the level of control or manipulation that we can expect? Because if Buffy could have taken another path; turned away from the Angel Love Escape, it makes a huge difference for the character.
Instead of trying to sweep all the Twilight Time character damage under the rug for Buffy, I would rather have had some part of S9 delve into Buffy's personal reflections on why she fell for Angel's temptations. Tthis is something that I would expect in the TV, but apparently in the comic book genre and the Dark Horse creative team does not think it is important.
Will we ever get the more on the history of the Twilight Prophecy and why Buffy falls under its control; did she have a choice to say NO?
May 01 2013 09:04 pm #194slaymesoftly
Moderator
slaymesoftly on Joss:
"He just doesn't want the Buffy comic to be a romance novel with pictures. IMHO, anyway. We won't get our happy Spuffy ending because that's not really the focus of the character and her life. Important - yes, because she is a woman, and she does love, but she's first and foremost a hero and relationships have to take second place to her calling."
I like this description very much - it's a great fit.
The more of the comic books I've read the more I dislike them. It's not the changes so much as the lack of story support for the changes - but I guess that with the comic book genre; that just the way this medium works from the limited page space. Since I don't come from a history of reading comic books, I have no idea how other franchises handled the "vital information" of the story elements - but with this series there is so much information left out of the story. Even the most fundamental element, the entire premise of The Twilight Time; this phorphecy of total chaos and destruction for humanity, is never really explained - why could they not have done a one-shot to explain the origins of the Twilight Prophecy. It would have been such a simple thing to do a one-shot to give the readers vital information on BS8 events.
It's really important to me - I want to know how much free will Buffy had when she goes from what she saw as mortal combat into falling into Angel's arms and escape into his promised joy for her life. All we get from the Dark Horse creative team is that she was not totally under the control of the Twilight Force as a puppet is control by the puppet master. We know that the Twilight Force was channeling her emotions from her early Sunnydale experiences with Angel but did Buffy have free will to make a different choice? Since the following season puts Buffy as "self betrayal" status, is this the final answer on the level of control or manipulation that we can expect? Because if Buffy could have taken another path; turned away from the Angel Love Escape, it makes a huge difference for the character.
Instead of trying to sweep all the Twilight Time character damage under the rug for Buffy, I would rather have had some part of S9 delve into Buffy's personal reflections on why she fell for Angel's temptations. Tthis is something that I would expect in the TV, but apparently in the comic book genre and the Dark Horse creative team does not think it is important.
Will we ever get the more on the history of the Twilight Prophecy and why Buffy falls under its control; did she have a choice to say NO?
Whenever I write something set in season 8 or early 9 where at some point Buffy and Spike really need to have it out about their own actions, I usually have her admit that she was very unhappy by Twilight time, thought he was dead (again), no one seemed to want her, no one even touched her, and combining the gold mist with her sadness and the left-over feelings for Angel... it just seemed like the thing to do at the time. I think she had a choice, but I also think everything was stacked against her making a good choice by that point, including whatever was influencing her through the mist. When she said yes, she didn't know what was going to happen. When she did, she snapped out of it.
Until the Buffy/Angel/Spike, etc comics, I hadn't read a comic book in decades, but I'm beginning to see that there really can't be a lot of depth to them. Not of the level we're used to when real people were speaking the lines as well as doing the actions and showing us their emotions. Two dimensional beings who have to get through a story (episode) in a few pages of drawings just aren't going to give us that. I suppose people who read comics all the time are used to, it and they just accept whatever they're given. Buffy fandom has never been that willing to be led. lol. On the other hand, it allows room for the reader to create his or her own version of the "why" and "how".
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Good points about Buffy's emotional state and that works great with the Buffy-Satsu sexual encounter but I'm not sure how effective it works for a justification, story plot treatment, for the Angel Lovers Reunion. Personally, I don't think the previous events gave us a Buffy who was so "beat down" and emotionally traumatized to explain sufficiently her immediate acceptance of all Angel was telling her. I accept that Buffy was being controlled or manipulated by Twilight Force, but the rapidity with which she goes from trying to kill Twilight to Angel Love Escape; it does not work for me. With Satsu and their sexual encounter, you get a sense of her emotional pain and isolation. The Xander romance potential is the other main element that shows her wanting to connect with a new love and iboth cases work but do these elements work as good support for the extreme changes that she undergoes with the temptation/escape arc? I don't know - for sure Twangel, The General, and Whistler did soome outrageous brutal acts against her - But Buffy has lived through years of dealing with horrendous struggles.
Perhaps the answer that I am seeking is not so much about the Twilight Prophecy but my answered is Buffy's endless pain and struggles as The Slayer. Obvious that having to live as The Slayer/Chosen One is the real evil that beat buffy down. Now I am left with the next question of why would Joss Whedon turn everything that gave his Buffy heroine and symbol of the strong and heroic warrior into such an emotionally vulnerable, even willing victim?
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