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BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
JW "Last Gleaming"
Thought it would be good to start a new thread for the last phase of Season 8 and the Joss Whedon conclusion -
If you have posted on Issue 36 in the other thread, it would be great if you posted those comments here -
I will be posting a Hi-Res scan of that Exquisite Spike Jo Chen cover at my flickr site - suitible for printing a little later.
If you have posted on Issue 36 in the other thread, it would be great if you posted those comments here -
I will be posting a Hi-Res scan of that Exquisite Spike Jo Chen cover at my flickr site - suitible for printing a little later.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
I have posted some scans from the new issue 36 - the pages go from earliest, just after the parody Twilight cover and Jo Chen cover to last page of The Master. These are only some of the scans that I think are more important. Most of the first part of the issue are the preview images that were posted on other sites and all the Bangel Love Fest panels of which I posted only 2. They are so lovingly sweet that I want to puke. I am going on the assumption that the treatment will eventually be for contrast to later development in the story. If any of this Buffy-Angel/Twangel Love Reunion is going to be the end of Cosmic Love, there really is, IMVHO, something is really strange in BuffyverseLand. Same can be said about Buffy's first encounter with Spike - this has to be done for contrast, otherwise Buffy is just the little self-centered, self-involved brat bitch that we have seen so many times with how she treats Spike. I am hoping that their last panels together are the truer statement of where their relationship stands now and not that first panel we get.
The more I read this issue and more strange I find it - especially all that section with Buffy and Angel/Twangel, I mean does Buffy give a shit at all about what happened to all those people who have been killed because of what Angel/Angelus has chosen to do?
I'm also going with this Buffy quote "this is the weirdest, bestest, weirdest best day of my life" - to continue with weird Buffy talk:
to angel: "what you've done for me, I can't describe. I can't pronounce. You gave me perfection, and you gave it up. Jesus, Angel, that's not just the love of my life. That's the guy I would live it with"
Strange and Irony aside - we are getting the connections from Giles thoughts, at least I'm thinking that is Giles thoughts, on all the religious symbols. Does anyone recognize the constellations that are being used in the Angel-Guide Dog panels. I'm thinking Sirius and Orion but there is also Sirius connected to "the fleecy star, the ram." and a wolf 359 star.
I have posted some scans from the new issue 36 - the pages go from earliest, just after the parody Twilight cover and Jo Chen cover to last page of The Master. These are only some of the scans that I think are more important. Most of the first part of the issue are the preview images that were posted on other sites and all the Bangel Love Fest panels of which I posted only 2. They are so lovingly sweet that I want to puke. I am going on the assumption that the treatment will eventually be for contrast to later development in the story. If any of this Buffy-Angel/Twangel Love Reunion is going to be the end of Cosmic Love, there really is, IMVHO, something is really strange in BuffyverseLand. Same can be said about Buffy's first encounter with Spike - this has to be done for contrast, otherwise Buffy is just the little self-centered, self-involved brat bitch that we have seen so many times with how she treats Spike. I am hoping that their last panels together are the truer statement of where their relationship stands now and not that first panel we get.
The more I read this issue and more strange I find it - especially all that section with Buffy and Angel/Twangel, I mean does Buffy give a shit at all about what happened to all those people who have been killed because of what Angel/Angelus has chosen to do?
I'm also going with this Buffy quote "this is the weirdest, bestest, weirdest best day of my life" - to continue with weird Buffy talk:
to angel: "what you've done for me, I can't describe. I can't pronounce. You gave me perfection, and you gave it up. Jesus, Angel, that's not just the love of my life. That's the guy I would live it with"
Strange and Irony aside - we are getting the connections from Giles thoughts, at least I'm thinking that is Giles thoughts, on all the religious symbols. Does anyone recognize the constellations that are being used in the Angel-Guide Dog panels. I'm thinking Sirius and Orion but there is also Sirius connected to "the fleecy star, the ram." and a wolf 359 star.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Anyone have some good analysis links to post on the new issue - please post.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
So, anyone wanna give those of us who didn't actually buy the comic (like moi) the rundown of what happened this issue?
~ Niori ~
Hey nmcil...I've been all over the place reading reviews and analysis cause I just got so ragey and depressed when I first read #36.
Here goes...:)
2maggie2 first posted this....2maggie2.livejournal.com/24049.html#cutid1
angearia..bless her, posted hers and made me feel way better, so Yay! angearia.livejournal.com/167464.html#cutid1
And here's some more...angearia.livejournal.com/167968.html#cutid1
ladyofthelog.livejournal.com/564267.html
local-max.livejournal.com/7323.html
me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com/84090.html...foreshadowing in Always Darkest.
angearia (again,bless her) has thoughts on the meaning of the Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike comparisons that S8 is making...angearia.livejournal.com/168198.html#cutid1
and2maggie2 is also more positive now and posted this....2maggie2.livejournal.com/24117.html#cutid1
and here's a snarky one LOL...beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com/142657.html
Aaaand that's all I got for now, if I see more I will post them ASAP.:)
Enjoy reading them.... I sure did.
Here goes...:)
2maggie2 first posted this....2maggie2.livejournal.com/24049.html#cutid1angearia..bless her, posted hers and made me feel way better, so Yay! angearia.livejournal.com/167464.html#cutid1And here's some more...angearia.livejournal.com/167968.html#cutid1
ladyofthelog.livejournal.com/564267.html
local-max.livejournal.com/7323.html
me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com/84090.html...foreshadowing in Always Darkest.
angearia (again,bless her) has thoughts on the meaning of the Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike comparisons that S8 is making...angearia.livejournal.com/168198.html#cutid1and
2maggie2 is also more positive now and posted this....2maggie2.livejournal.com/24117.html#cutid1and here's a snarky one LOL...beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com/142657.html
Aaaand that's all I got for now, if I see more I will post them ASAP.:)
Enjoy reading them.... I sure did.
Sep 04 2010 05:43 pm #6SpaceLord
Guest
I'll sum it up nicely: It's an even bigger piece of shit than it was :)
Oh, didn't know you guys are discussing it here. :) I wrote my thoughts in another thread, I'll paste them here:
Buffy/Angel:
Angel is Buffy's only equal now on the strength level, fighting together for the safety of others and the world. It seems that Buffy likes it better when her partner is her equal; she enjoys the thrill of the fight as well as having someone by her side who enjoys it just as much. She and Angel are in sync with each other, literally flying together and kicking demon butts.
Angel's jealousy of Spike reveals itself, and he's acting like the 12 year old we saw in Chosen and most of AtS S5, and we saw when Buffy started dating Riley, and we saw when Buffy's friend Ford from LA showed up, and we saw after Buffy's Sexy Dance with Xander. So, that's Angel being his usual petty, jealous self.
Buffy gently tells Angel that Spike saved their lives the last time she'd seen him. That she does trust him. Unlike Angel, she doesn't trust him, but she can't help being in love with him. S1 touched on the illogicality of love. Buffy was supposed to fall in love with the human boy who brought her back to life, yet her heart beats for the dead man who couldn't breathe life into her.
Buffy also doesn't forget Angel's sacrifice. He gave her Twilight, wanted them there together, wanted peace and a life of eternal happiness, but decided to give it up and go back to the fight, the chaos, the pain. Buffy tells Angel that she understands –because she herself wanted it, but not as much as Angel, and it was hard giving it up, and Angel doing that makes her proud of him.
Buffy acts more sympathetic towards Angel than she should, but perhaps that has something to do with the powers they have, the rewards, Twilight, their connection. Something pulls them together, they want it as well, and it's pushing them against their resistance, it's taking their choice even though they want it deep down. I think this force is taking what they want deep down and bringing it to the surface against their will.
Buffy's love for Angel and her forgiving nature are the reason she's giving him a second chance, like she did with all the people in her life in the past. She knows Angel can come back from this a better man, she's been in the mud herself –though less muddy than Angel's- and she came back stronger than ever. She gives Angel a second chance for redemption, because that's who Buffy is, she forgives, she believes in others' ability to make a difference, to change, to become better. Not to mention it's also what Buffy needs: she knows deep down that she can't commit to him with all the mistakes he'd recently done. She needs his redemption as much as he does.
The lovey-dovey Bangel conversation is too over-the-top, reminds me of Xander's POV in The Zeppo, how he sees Bangel. This is actually the real Bangel on the inside brought to the outside, no barriers, no shields, naked for all to see, especially Buffy and Angel. It's not the time or place for that; they forget themselves when they're together, feelings and emotions bare, the hard façade they wear in front of others isn't there when they're together. And it's half of Twilight's doing.
Buffy asks Angel to go, because while she understands and forgives, the others don't and can't. And Angel can't blame them. What he had done was one of the biggest betrayals to them all. And he deserves to be sent away to the beginning point: the first episode of AtS S1.
About Buffy's "That's beneath you, baby," that's obviously Buffy being snarky to Angel's "Is that all you want from him?" Right now, Buffy is fed up with the pointless jealousy; she wants to fix their mess. Enough with Miss Nice Girl.
Buffy/Spike:
When Buffy goes into the ship, it's all about business. I'm sensing some hurt and anger on her part. Spike had come back years ago and never tried to contact her, she doesn't understand why, it shows in the way she glares at him, the way she grabs his shoulder and roughly turns him around. With a sarcastic raise of her eyebrow, she thanks him for saving their lives, and then talks about not contacting him because she was busy –which can probably be a shot at him not contacting her because <i>he</i> was busy. She cuts him off when he wants to say you're welcome because she is obviously mad at him. She reminds him that they've got an apocalypse to take care of, doesn't wanna hear him joke or snark or use dirty British words she doesn't understand.
On the other hand, Spike is also hurt and angry –not to mention disappointed at her- for having magical, space sex with Angel. He can't help but throw cheap remarks at her, and she calls him on it "Snark", and then Spike tells her that she can't trust Angel. I think at the same time, Spike also feels betrayed, hurt and let down by Angel. Seems all his idols –if you'd call Angel one- sank so low.
Spike later pulls himself together and gets down to business, reminding Buffy of what she'd done, what she'd started, what her irresponsible actions caused. Buffy obviously looks ashamed, hugging herself, unable to look him in the eyes. Spike lays it all on her, doesn't choose his words carefully, so upset with her, and it all hurts Buffy: the damage she caused, Spike's disappointment in her, her friends' fear and wary. Her expression as she looks away from Spike, filled with sorrow and guilt, her eyes as she looks back at him: shocked, upset, teary. Guilt is tearing her apart.
Buffy is back. And Spike brought her back.
Xander/Spike:
The way Xander looks at Spike can be read as "I don't trust you" or "You better have useful info" or "you're so sexy I wanna kill myself." Spike is looking at someone and I want it to be Xander –them having sexy, frowny eye contact is probably the only Spander moment I'll ever get in S8.
Willow/Buffy and Willow/Angel:
Willow is obviously so angry at Angel, yet she's sympathetic and comforting with Buffy. Angel's mistakes are greater than Buffy's, and also, Buffy is her best friend, Willow had been there through Buffy's pain and isolation –didn't see Angel's. And this time it's not black and white, Willow can't blame Angel's insanity on his soul anymore. This is gray area, and Willow more than anyone knows what it's like to be insane. She's not gonna excuse Angel because she's been there.
Xander/Dawn:
They're adorable all right, but I can't wait until we explore this ship. The tension in the Buffy/Spike scene is far more fun and interesting IMO than the cuteness of Xander/Dawn –I want issues, tension, serious talks. C'mon, Xander and Dawn, become interesting.
Buffy/Angel:
Angel is Buffy's only equal now on the strength level, fighting together for the safety of others and the world. It seems that Buffy likes it better when her partner is her equal; she enjoys the thrill of the fight as well as having someone by her side who enjoys it just as much. She and Angel are in sync with each other, literally flying together and kicking demon butts.
Angel's jealousy of Spike reveals itself, and he's acting like the 12 year old we saw in Chosen and most of AtS S5, and we saw when Buffy started dating Riley, and we saw when Buffy's friend Ford from LA showed up, and we saw after Buffy's Sexy Dance with Xander. So, that's Angel being his usual petty, jealous self.
Buffy gently tells Angel that Spike saved their lives the last time she'd seen him. That she does trust him. Unlike Angel, she doesn't trust him, but she can't help being in love with him. S1 touched on the illogicality of love. Buffy was supposed to fall in love with the human boy who brought her back to life, yet her heart beats for the dead man who couldn't breathe life into her.
Buffy also doesn't forget Angel's sacrifice. He gave her Twilight, wanted them there together, wanted peace and a life of eternal happiness, but decided to give it up and go back to the fight, the chaos, the pain. Buffy tells Angel that she understands –because she herself wanted it, but not as much as Angel, and it was hard giving it up, and Angel doing that makes her proud of him.
Buffy acts more sympathetic towards Angel than she should, but perhaps that has something to do with the powers they have, the rewards, Twilight, their connection. Something pulls them together, they want it as well, and it's pushing them against their resistance, it's taking their choice even though they want it deep down. I think this force is taking what they want deep down and bringing it to the surface against their will.
Buffy's love for Angel and her forgiving nature are the reason she's giving him a second chance, like she did with all the people in her life in the past. She knows Angel can come back from this a better man, she's been in the mud herself –though less muddy than Angel's- and she came back stronger than ever. She gives Angel a second chance for redemption, because that's who Buffy is, she forgives, she believes in others' ability to make a difference, to change, to become better. Not to mention it's also what Buffy needs: she knows deep down that she can't commit to him with all the mistakes he'd recently done. She needs his redemption as much as he does.
The lovey-dovey Bangel conversation is too over-the-top, reminds me of Xander's POV in The Zeppo, how he sees Bangel. This is actually the real Bangel on the inside brought to the outside, no barriers, no shields, naked for all to see, especially Buffy and Angel. It's not the time or place for that; they forget themselves when they're together, feelings and emotions bare, the hard façade they wear in front of others isn't there when they're together. And it's half of Twilight's doing.
Buffy asks Angel to go, because while she understands and forgives, the others don't and can't. And Angel can't blame them. What he had done was one of the biggest betrayals to them all. And he deserves to be sent away to the beginning point: the first episode of AtS S1.
About Buffy's "That's beneath you, baby," that's obviously Buffy being snarky to Angel's "Is that all you want from him?" Right now, Buffy is fed up with the pointless jealousy; she wants to fix their mess. Enough with Miss Nice Girl.
Buffy/Spike:
When Buffy goes into the ship, it's all about business. I'm sensing some hurt and anger on her part. Spike had come back years ago and never tried to contact her, she doesn't understand why, it shows in the way she glares at him, the way she grabs his shoulder and roughly turns him around. With a sarcastic raise of her eyebrow, she thanks him for saving their lives, and then talks about not contacting him because she was busy –which can probably be a shot at him not contacting her because <i>he</i> was busy. She cuts him off when he wants to say you're welcome because she is obviously mad at him. She reminds him that they've got an apocalypse to take care of, doesn't wanna hear him joke or snark or use dirty British words she doesn't understand.
On the other hand, Spike is also hurt and angry –not to mention disappointed at her- for having magical, space sex with Angel. He can't help but throw cheap remarks at her, and she calls him on it "Snark", and then Spike tells her that she can't trust Angel. I think at the same time, Spike also feels betrayed, hurt and let down by Angel. Seems all his idols –if you'd call Angel one- sank so low.
Spike later pulls himself together and gets down to business, reminding Buffy of what she'd done, what she'd started, what her irresponsible actions caused. Buffy obviously looks ashamed, hugging herself, unable to look him in the eyes. Spike lays it all on her, doesn't choose his words carefully, so upset with her, and it all hurts Buffy: the damage she caused, Spike's disappointment in her, her friends' fear and wary. Her expression as she looks away from Spike, filled with sorrow and guilt, her eyes as she looks back at him: shocked, upset, teary. Guilt is tearing her apart.
Buffy is back. And Spike brought her back.
Xander/Spike:
The way Xander looks at Spike can be read as "I don't trust you" or "You better have useful info" or "you're so sexy I wanna kill myself." Spike is looking at someone and I want it to be Xander –them having sexy, frowny eye contact is probably the only Spander moment I'll ever get in S8.
Willow/Buffy and Willow/Angel:
Willow is obviously so angry at Angel, yet she's sympathetic and comforting with Buffy. Angel's mistakes are greater than Buffy's, and also, Buffy is her best friend, Willow had been there through Buffy's pain and isolation –didn't see Angel's. And this time it's not black and white, Willow can't blame Angel's insanity on his soul anymore. This is gray area, and Willow more than anyone knows what it's like to be insane. She's not gonna excuse Angel because she's been there.
Xander/Dawn:
They're adorable all right, but I can't wait until we explore this ship. The tension in the Buffy/Spike scene is far more fun and interesting IMO than the cuteness of Xander/Dawn –I want issues, tension, serious talks. C'mon, Xander and Dawn, become interesting.
I really like Xander and Dawn and I hope that nothing really bad happens to her - Still if the mythic symbols have any connection to her transformation phases - she may be in for some very bad things -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Ami -
Thank you so much for the links - I have not had much time to visit sites and see what people are thinking - super busy right now - so I really appreciate your list.
Thank you so much for the links - I have not had much time to visit sites and see what people are thinking - super busy right now - so I really appreciate your list.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 05 2010 02:32 pm #10SpaceLord
Guest
Does anybody know how the sales for the comics are? I mean are they dropping like I've read some people saying or steady at a certain number for each issue?
"In terms of religious symbols, its kind of a convoluted Adam and Eve deal, with Angel as an "Adam" being given a choice that he thought was desirable, and convincing Buffy that it, too, was the thing that she still wanted. This time, though, instead of getting put out of Paradise for knowledge, they thought the knowledge would lead them to Paradise. Just like before, though, the knowledge only led them, and everyone else, into destruction, and they have given an evil being-apparently The Master-some authority and power that it didn't have before. Just what, we don't know entirely, but we know its not good."
The Paradise Garden and the Temptation is such a great metaphor - The Eating From The Forbidden Tree of Life that would make them as Gods. Angel/Twangel, as I have thought from the first, is not, nor ever, been the main player - he was the servant for the real power players.
One glaring and totally obvious question is simply: Why would all these Great Super Powes and Great Transformation need to have such horrific violence and deceit as its impetus for creation? It's such an obvious element in the whole foundation of the story. LuLurose, as a fan of Star Trek, you might agree with me - Like Captain Kirk asked Sybok's God "why does God need a ship" (paraphrase). Why does SuperSlayer or CaptainMarvelSlayer need to be created from all this dark force and evil?
The thing is, and I think I speak for a huge portion of the fans, what made the Buffyverse and Buffy such a powerful connection between series and viewer was the reflections on real life. This comic book series and this mystery conversion has taken away a great deal of that connection.
What do I think, of course I am probably totally wrong - Angel/Twangel/Angelus makes the perfect vessel to use for the creation of A Dark Soul Universe - Angelus combined with Angel is a great foundation to use as a creative tool. Angel has all the massive emotional guilt strings to manipulate and Angelus has all the massive guilt free powerful dark forces to infuse or imprint on the new creation. Look what was done with Connor - he came back filled with all that rage and hatred for his creator dad, Connor was even called The Destroyer Prophecy that is being expected and being waited for by the demon cult.
There are life forms already in existence in Twilight LaLaLoveLand - how easy it would be for another entity (that fallen sculpted face makes even for sense to me now) to simply imprint whatever traits it wants onto the new creation or a life form that is there. Abandoned children are vulnerable and the prey of anyone will take responsibility for that life.
Going back to Sunnydale and a time change, like ramming into Big Ben, will that be the solution of this potential mystery life? "Back to the Beginning" is what Joss and The Master said - before the word, before God and the temples and houses - isn't this just what Buffy and Angel/Twangel have been manipulated into doing.
All speculation on my part, but I cannot believe that Joss Whedon is going to move the Buffyverse into something as simplistic and of insignificance as Bangel Love.
This issue , and I maybe totally wrong and off the train track, seems to be all about contrasts, pain, hurt and but also about a promise hope for the future struggle. I see that in Spike's being ready and willing to get right back in The Buffy Slayers Scoobies Side. Spike, in spite of being hurt by "the reek of him" and her mean spirited treatment is ready to get right back into the struggle with her. What comes from Spike is "you think we've got trouble now? Spike does not come into her life with this grandiose plan to take control of her life and bring her great powers and to take her to LaLaLoveLand, there is no plan for separation, his plan is to get into the fray (who could resist?) and help solve the problem. Maybe my Spike Love is making me see this through that "rose colored glass" but he has brought me hope again.
And what is the "Seed of Wonder" have no idea what Joss Whedon's has in mind, but this fan and reader can think of one great big metaphor connected to all this creation and paradise realms - The "Seed of Wonder" is the mind and its capacity to reason and have free will.
The Creation Origin Forces may be out to play again, but just like Milton's God, he gave the first parents the ability to choose their paths - either obedient children or to make their own choice.
The Paradise Garden and the Temptation is such a great metaphor - The Eating From The Forbidden Tree of Life that would make them as Gods. Angel/Twangel, as I have thought from the first, is not, nor ever, been the main player - he was the servant for the real power players.
One glaring and totally obvious question is simply: Why would all these Great Super Powes and Great Transformation need to have such horrific violence and deceit as its impetus for creation? It's such an obvious element in the whole foundation of the story. LuLurose, as a fan of Star Trek, you might agree with me - Like Captain Kirk asked Sybok's God "why does God need a ship" (paraphrase). Why does SuperSlayer or CaptainMarvelSlayer need to be created from all this dark force and evil?
The thing is, and I think I speak for a huge portion of the fans, what made the Buffyverse and Buffy such a powerful connection between series and viewer was the reflections on real life. This comic book series and this mystery conversion has taken away a great deal of that connection.
What do I think, of course I am probably totally wrong - Angel/Twangel/Angelus makes the perfect vessel to use for the creation of A Dark Soul Universe - Angelus combined with Angel is a great foundation to use as a creative tool. Angel has all the massive emotional guilt strings to manipulate and Angelus has all the massive guilt free powerful dark forces to infuse or imprint on the new creation. Look what was done with Connor - he came back filled with all that rage and hatred for his creator dad, Connor was even called The Destroyer Prophecy that is being expected and being waited for by the demon cult.
There are life forms already in existence in Twilight LaLaLoveLand - how easy it would be for another entity (that fallen sculpted face makes even for sense to me now) to simply imprint whatever traits it wants onto the new creation or a life form that is there. Abandoned children are vulnerable and the prey of anyone will take responsibility for that life.
Going back to Sunnydale and a time change, like ramming into Big Ben, will that be the solution of this potential mystery life? "Back to the Beginning" is what Joss and The Master said - before the word, before God and the temples and houses - isn't this just what Buffy and Angel/Twangel have been manipulated into doing.
All speculation on my part, but I cannot believe that Joss Whedon is going to move the Buffyverse into something as simplistic and of insignificance as Bangel Love.
This issue , and I maybe totally wrong and off the train track, seems to be all about contrasts, pain, hurt and but also about a promise hope for the future struggle. I see that in Spike's being ready and willing to get right back in The Buffy Slayers Scoobies Side. Spike, in spite of being hurt by "the reek of him" and her mean spirited treatment is ready to get right back into the struggle with her. What comes from Spike is "you think we've got trouble now? Spike does not come into her life with this grandiose plan to take control of her life and bring her great powers and to take her to LaLaLoveLand, there is no plan for separation, his plan is to get into the fray (who could resist?) and help solve the problem. Maybe my Spike Love is making me see this through that "rose colored glass" but he has brought me hope again.
And what is the "Seed of Wonder" have no idea what Joss Whedon's has in mind, but this fan and reader can think of one great big metaphor connected to all this creation and paradise realms - The "Seed of Wonder" is the mind and its capacity to reason and have free will.
The Creation Origin Forces may be out to play again, but just like Milton's God, he gave the first parents the ability to choose their paths - either obedient children or to make their own choice.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 06 2010 05:28 pm #12Nick Scarlett
Guest
I have an answer to the sales figures question. According to some company called Diamond, Buffy #1 sold 109,000. Issues in the teens were selling in the 80,000 range, the 20s were 60,000+. The Twilight arc sold between 45,000 and 49,000. Sales were flat after the Angel reveal, which surprises me. I figured a lot of Angel and Spike fans who weren't following the series might pick it up once they heard the news. I did. The first Buffy comic I ever bought was #34, and that was only because I'd heard who Twilight was and got curious. Then again, maybe most never heard. The shows used to draw 5 million or so a week and the comics about 50,000 per month. B/A may be coming true, but 99% of the original fan base is unaware of it. It will be interesting to see if the return of Spike and Joss writing again will boost sales. You would think so, but that 4 month hiatus couldn't have helped.
If I were reading a fanfic where there was a masked Big Bad that taunted and slapped Buffy and her friends around and participated in the killing of over 200 slayers, then Buffy finally had the big throwdown with him, pulled off his mask, found out he was Angel and immediately had sex with him, I'd laugh at how silly it was and quit reading. Especially if I read long enough to find that they had some kind of cosmic sex that birthed a new universe. If it were fanfic, I'd think the author didn't understand the fandom and the characters well enough to be writing in it. But it's Whedon, who invented the fandom and the characters, so I still have some hope he'll pull the thing out in the last 4 issues. He has to realize Buffy was OOC in her scenes with Angel. She has a dopy look on her face and even calls him "baby."
Buffy calls this her "bestest" day ever. Not a good sign for B/A's future. Some other moments of great happiness in the Whedonverse:
- Buffy loses her virginity to Angel in Surprise
- Giles & Jenny get back together and plan a romantic evening to celebrate in Passion
- Angel briefly turned human in IWRY
- Joyce recovers from the brain tumor
- Angel gets a son
- Anya's dreams are finally coming true in Hells Bells
- Willow & Tara's makeup sex in Seeing Red
- Buffy finally tells Spike she loves him - about 2 seconds before he dies
- Wesley and Fred finally get together, naturally she dies the next episode
B/A have just had their happiest day ever. Heartache and recriminations soon to follow. Funny how Buffy's friends are now opposed to Angel, but pile in the ship with Spike. Quite a reversal of how things would have been before Twilight.
Does anyone have a prediction of the Season 9 supporting casts? According to the note in the back of Buffy #36, the new seasons of Buffy and Angel will start in late 2011. After this story, I don't see how Spike could remain with Angel. Will he be back in the Buffy cast? If so, who will Angel have as supporting players? With Cordelia & Wes both dead, his book needs Spike more than Buffy's, but wouldn't it be interesting to see Spike interact with Dawn, Faith, Giles, Willow & Xander again?
If I were reading a fanfic where there was a masked Big Bad that taunted and slapped Buffy and her friends around and participated in the killing of over 200 slayers, then Buffy finally had the big throwdown with him, pulled off his mask, found out he was Angel and immediately had sex with him, I'd laugh at how silly it was and quit reading. Especially if I read long enough to find that they had some kind of cosmic sex that birthed a new universe. If it were fanfic, I'd think the author didn't understand the fandom and the characters well enough to be writing in it. But it's Whedon, who invented the fandom and the characters, so I still have some hope he'll pull the thing out in the last 4 issues. He has to realize Buffy was OOC in her scenes with Angel. She has a dopy look on her face and even calls him "baby."
Buffy calls this her "bestest" day ever. Not a good sign for B/A's future. Some other moments of great happiness in the Whedonverse:
- Buffy loses her virginity to Angel in Surprise
- Giles & Jenny get back together and plan a romantic evening to celebrate in Passion
- Angel briefly turned human in IWRY
- Joyce recovers from the brain tumor
- Angel gets a son
- Anya's dreams are finally coming true in Hells Bells
- Willow & Tara's makeup sex in Seeing Red
- Buffy finally tells Spike she loves him - about 2 seconds before he dies
- Wesley and Fred finally get together, naturally she dies the next episode
B/A have just had their happiest day ever. Heartache and recriminations soon to follow. Funny how Buffy's friends are now opposed to Angel, but pile in the ship with Spike. Quite a reversal of how things would have been before Twilight.
Does anyone have a prediction of the Season 9 supporting casts? According to the note in the back of Buffy #36, the new seasons of Buffy and Angel will start in late 2011. After this story, I don't see how Spike could remain with Angel. Will he be back in the Buffy cast? If so, who will Angel have as supporting players? With Cordelia & Wes both dead, his book needs Spike more than Buffy's, but wouldn't it be interesting to see Spike interact with Dawn, Faith, Giles, Willow & Xander again?
Sep 06 2010 06:55 pm #13SpaceLord
Guest
Nick I think that Spike will be in all the books, I'm not sure but from what I gather he is (one of) the most popular character in the Buffyverse and they will probably try to use him as much as possible just like Marvel likes to use Wolverine everywhere. That would of course be from a pure monetary point, another possibility is that he will get his own book like he's getting now over at IDW. I think the sales of the Spike book will determine how he will be used.
but wouldn't it be interesting to see Spike interact with Dawn, Faith, Giles, Willow & Xander again?
I agree. Especially Xander and Dawn. One of my pet peeves in S7 is Spike's isolation from the gang except Buffy (and sometimes Anya) when he could've had interesting scenes with Willow, Dawn and Xander. Hell his stay at Xander's apartment is such a waste since they hadn't interacted in it much -I'm so bitter over the awesome, insightful, interesying scenes we could've had between those two in Xander's apartment, it could've explained why Xander became nicer towards Spike later.
I agree. Especially Xander and Dawn. One of my pet peeves in S7 is Spike's isolation from the gang except Buffy (and sometimes Anya) when he could've had interesting scenes with Willow, Dawn and Xander. Hell his stay at Xander's apartment is such a waste since they hadn't interacted in it much -I'm so bitter over the awesome, insightful, interesying scenes we could've had between those two in Xander's apartment, it could've explained why Xander became nicer towards Spike later.
Sep 06 2010 07:46 pm #15Spikez_tart
B/A have just had their happiest day ever. Heartache and recriminations soon to follow. - which, along with Buffy and Spike squabbling gives me complete hope!
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 09 2010 07:16 am #16nmcil
Guest
I'm sure that the sales figures increased with the Joss Whedon finale arc. After the Twilight Reveal Issue, I went from buy one cover of each and one extra Jo Chen cover because I love the artowrk - and want to keep them as one of the great things connected with the series - I purchased only 1 book after this. When the JW issues came out I went back to buying both covers. . I'm such a "Fan Sucker" that I will probably buy Jeanty cover as well, even against my better judgement for the remainder of Season 8. Weakness, thy name is nmcil.
I don't see how anyone would interpret what was shown in the Buffy-Twangel panels as a positive development in their Love-Soul Mates story. Buffy's speech patterns are those of a child - the only instance when she sounds like an adult is when she tells Twangel that she needs him to go save Slayers and that he needs it to. Only problem being that this entire series, he has been directly involved in all the targeting.
Unless Angel/Twangel gets some outstanding or honest exploration of the moral and ethical questions regarding his choices - I think that this character will be severely diminished as a serious character. If some horrendous event has happened to him, an event that broke him down to his "rock bottom" and made him extremely vulnerable as a victim of manipulation, what can justified his choices as shown thus far? In AtF, he starts out confessing his Big Take A Stand Plan - I thought it was a dumb move in NFA, and it was proven to be just that. But he gets a the Big Clean Up by having all things returned to LA Before The Fall. All is sent back, except that memories of LA Hell instead of having him answer to making it all happen, instead he comes back as the Great Hero & Champion once again. That can't happen again - who would have any admiration for the character and his story if he can escape consequences again. What's going to happen, he finds out that he has been screwed over and has been manipulated all this time and goes on a Mega Superman God Rampage of Revenge.
From what I can make out of Angel/Twangel, from what has been presented thus far is that he has been working from the position of an obedient servant and devoted follower of a Religion, Movement of Cult - running on faith and promised "Best For The Greater Good"
I've been thinking about the philosophical arguments of this Killing for the Great Good - that killings thousands to save millions is a viable justification for taking this strategy. And yes, it does logically connect and make sense - but what it does not do is change the process. A Death Is Still A Death, and Murder Is Still Murder. Because it was done for "the greater good" does not change the reality of the act, which is killing. All these people involved in this "Plan For The Greater Good" - from any side have still caused the deaths of people and great destruction.
The perfect example of how "personal truths" and devotion to personal truth is about to happen this September 11. Those religious faithful who plan to burn the Holy Book of Truth & Law of those "other faithful" of the Muslim religion. The book burning will take place, according to their leader irrespective of all the harm and dangerous consequences that may follow. Does Angel/Twangel's "they will die anyway" convert the effects of his killing process? Dead is still Dead and his choice to implement his Plan "for the greater good" will not change that - it does not matter that they were going to die anyway, it does cleanse him of those deaths.
Since Scott Allie has clearly made the point that Buffy wanted to have sex with Angel/Twangel, immediately after being in that life to the death fight with him. She can't put this all down to "green glo magic and influence" What the hell Twangel's story is going to finally reveal, we will all just have to wait on Joss Whedon and Scott Allie. I found Scott Allie's last interview and the Q&A very disturbing, I came away after reading them with the sense that he does not get the level of disappointed from so many fans or that the fans would not have grave reservation about where they took these characters.
I don't see how anyone would interpret what was shown in the Buffy-Twangel panels as a positive development in their Love-Soul Mates story. Buffy's speech patterns are those of a child - the only instance when she sounds like an adult is when she tells Twangel that she needs him to go save Slayers and that he needs it to. Only problem being that this entire series, he has been directly involved in all the targeting.
Unless Angel/Twangel gets some outstanding or honest exploration of the moral and ethical questions regarding his choices - I think that this character will be severely diminished as a serious character. If some horrendous event has happened to him, an event that broke him down to his "rock bottom" and made him extremely vulnerable as a victim of manipulation, what can justified his choices as shown thus far? In AtF, he starts out confessing his Big Take A Stand Plan - I thought it was a dumb move in NFA, and it was proven to be just that. But he gets a the Big Clean Up by having all things returned to LA Before The Fall. All is sent back, except that memories of LA Hell instead of having him answer to making it all happen, instead he comes back as the Great Hero & Champion once again. That can't happen again - who would have any admiration for the character and his story if he can escape consequences again. What's going to happen, he finds out that he has been screwed over and has been manipulated all this time and goes on a Mega Superman God Rampage of Revenge.
From what I can make out of Angel/Twangel, from what has been presented thus far is that he has been working from the position of an obedient servant and devoted follower of a Religion, Movement of Cult - running on faith and promised "Best For The Greater Good"
I've been thinking about the philosophical arguments of this Killing for the Great Good - that killings thousands to save millions is a viable justification for taking this strategy. And yes, it does logically connect and make sense - but what it does not do is change the process. A Death Is Still A Death, and Murder Is Still Murder. Because it was done for "the greater good" does not change the reality of the act, which is killing. All these people involved in this "Plan For The Greater Good" - from any side have still caused the deaths of people and great destruction.
The perfect example of how "personal truths" and devotion to personal truth is about to happen this September 11. Those religious faithful who plan to burn the Holy Book of Truth & Law of those "other faithful" of the Muslim religion. The book burning will take place, according to their leader irrespective of all the harm and dangerous consequences that may follow. Does Angel/Twangel's "they will die anyway" convert the effects of his killing process? Dead is still Dead and his choice to implement his Plan "for the greater good" will not change that - it does not matter that they were going to die anyway, it does cleanse him of those deaths.
Since Scott Allie has clearly made the point that Buffy wanted to have sex with Angel/Twangel, immediately after being in that life to the death fight with him. She can't put this all down to "green glo magic and influence" What the hell Twangel's story is going to finally reveal, we will all just have to wait on Joss Whedon and Scott Allie. I found Scott Allie's last interview and the Q&A very disturbing, I came away after reading them with the sense that he does not get the level of disappointed from so many fans or that the fans would not have grave reservation about where they took these characters.
Sep 14 2010 11:05 am #17nmcil
Guest
Wondering what some of the speculation about the Joss Whedon finale are here - any thoughts on who might be the character that would set of all this "Internet rage" that Scott Allie and Georges Jeanty talk about?
There has been some speculation that Joss Whedon might actually use Spike as a huge plot twist - I don't think that would be the case - I can't see what possible contribution it would make to all these years of the Buffy - Twilight confrontation turned Lovers Gone Wild. Why would Spike be useful as the "fallen hero?" that's Angel/Angelus' story, having Spike become the betrayer of Buffy at this stage make little sense to me.
The characters from all these years who are most likely to me involved in the last phase for either deaths or sacrifice would be Dawn or Xander and Andrew. On the possible betrayers we have Willow connected by the Fray timeline future trip that Buffy took, Angel/Twangel/, possibly some of her Slayers. Some speculation that one of the Aurelian line vampires might be involved.
Buffy seems to be wearing the same clothing, especially that orange top, in the three important issues:
1. when she is shown crying and beat up, wears the crucifix, and the first time that red seed egg symbol is shown. Willow and Buffy on a time related mission.
2. she wears a very similar top and same pants in the dreamscape "Always Darkest" mini comic by Joss Whedon & Jo Chen - all the visuals in that comic appear to be big clues on what was coming in the finale and things that were presented very early and are about the entire season.
3. Buffy wears that same top and pants in the preview images fighting The Master.
There has been some speculation that Joss Whedon might actually use Spike as a huge plot twist - I don't think that would be the case - I can't see what possible contribution it would make to all these years of the Buffy - Twilight confrontation turned Lovers Gone Wild. Why would Spike be useful as the "fallen hero?" that's Angel/Angelus' story, having Spike become the betrayer of Buffy at this stage make little sense to me.
The characters from all these years who are most likely to me involved in the last phase for either deaths or sacrifice would be Dawn or Xander and Andrew. On the possible betrayers we have Willow connected by the Fray timeline future trip that Buffy took, Angel/Twangel/, possibly some of her Slayers. Some speculation that one of the Aurelian line vampires might be involved.
Buffy seems to be wearing the same clothing, especially that orange top, in the three important issues:
1. when she is shown crying and beat up, wears the crucifix, and the first time that red seed egg symbol is shown. Willow and Buffy on a time related mission.
2. she wears a very similar top and same pants in the dreamscape "Always Darkest" mini comic by Joss Whedon & Jo Chen - all the visuals in that comic appear to be big clues on what was coming in the finale and things that were presented very early and are about the entire season.
3. Buffy wears that same top and pants in the preview images fighting The Master.
Sep 14 2010 06:02 pm #18Nick Scarlett
Guest
Although something bad involving Spike would probably set more fans off than anything else, I don't think it would make dramatic sense. So far Buffy doesn't seem to care about Spike in S8 and none of the rest of the characters like him at all, so him turning evil or dying wouldn't be an emotional moment for them. Also, Georges said Scott Allie kept whatever it was from him because he didn't want to ruin his day. Since he's just started drawing Spike, I doubt he'd be broken up about anything involving him.
Buffy's death again? Nah, nobody'd believe it would be any more permanent than her other deaths.
Some are speculating that one of the 2 main ships will be definitively crushed, but I don't think that's likely. Spuffies haven't been given much buildup by #36. It seems pretty much finished by all the B/A anyway. And as far as B/A goes, Angel's already pulled a season-long betrayal, and to say Buffy's already over it is quite an understatement. The way she is being written now, I think Angel could kill all her friends and she would find some way to justify it. She's become so Bella that I wonder if Joss isn't sending up Bella/Edward with the B/A scenes.
For something that would enrage fans and upset Georges, I'm going with a death involving Willow, Xander, Faith, Dawn or Giles. Doubt it's Willow. Nobody'd believe she'd stay dead, either. Or Faith, because Buffy doesn't like her.
If somehow B & A's actions wind up causing the death of Dawn, Giles Or Xander, that would be a truly tragic ending. The kind Joss loves. I really love Dawn, but most fans don't seem to like her, so I doubt her death would cause "rage" on the internet. My guess is Xander dies saving Dawn and Buffy is somehow responsible.
What does everyone lese think?
Buffy's death again? Nah, nobody'd believe it would be any more permanent than her other deaths.
Some are speculating that one of the 2 main ships will be definitively crushed, but I don't think that's likely. Spuffies haven't been given much buildup by #36. It seems pretty much finished by all the B/A anyway. And as far as B/A goes, Angel's already pulled a season-long betrayal, and to say Buffy's already over it is quite an understatement. The way she is being written now, I think Angel could kill all her friends and she would find some way to justify it. She's become so Bella that I wonder if Joss isn't sending up Bella/Edward with the B/A scenes.
For something that would enrage fans and upset Georges, I'm going with a death involving Willow, Xander, Faith, Dawn or Giles. Doubt it's Willow. Nobody'd believe she'd stay dead, either. Or Faith, because Buffy doesn't like her.
If somehow B & A's actions wind up causing the death of Dawn, Giles Or Xander, that would be a truly tragic ending. The kind Joss loves. I really love Dawn, but most fans don't seem to like her, so I doubt her death would cause "rage" on the internet. My guess is Xander dies saving Dawn and Buffy is somehow responsible.
What does everyone lese think?
Sep 15 2010 12:23 am #19pfeifferpack
I think Dawn will die. After all she and Xander have declared their love (and Xander in essence picked Dawn over Buffy LOL)....stands to reason she has to die. They won't kill Xander (or the "core four") because of the big fan base there and Xander has always been the stand in for the writers. Nope.....a happy couple in Joss' hands means one of the two will die and my money is on Dawn.
Kathleen
Kathleen
I'm leaning towards Xander, because that will enrage a lot of fans, also unexpected and expected at the same time. Xander is one of the core four, and fans know that Joss won't kill one of the core four, and expected because Xander has grown so much, very close to Buffy, and will cause more pain and tears than Dawn's death.
I'm not sure if it'll anger me as much as sadden me. Xander, as Joss said, is a role-model for men. He's the man who's okay and turned on by srong women, the normal one, the one most fans relate to. BtVS won't be BtVS without Xander or Willow. So, I hope those two stay. I actually hope no one dies, I hate character death.
I'm not sure if it'll anger me as much as sadden me. Xander, as Joss said, is a role-model for men. He's the man who's okay and turned on by srong women, the normal one, the one most fans relate to. BtVS won't be BtVS without Xander or Willow. So, I hope those two stay. I actually hope no one dies, I hate character death.
Sosa Lola, I honestly wouldn't hold out much hope about someone not dying. Out of seven seasons, there are only two seasons that someone doesn't die at the end (3 & 4).
~ Niori ~
I will try to organize my images - I think that the 3 Slayers, Rowena, Leah and Satsu may end up playing important role in the ending of the series - I will try and post the images on my flickr site that I think might be the foreshadows for them. I been looking at the early issues, and particularly the first two issues. Joss Whedon always laid out in foreshadows for the important elements of the new season in the first episode. The same holds true, IMO, in the comic book Season 8. Andrew's fireside story telling/lesson panels have this wonderful discussion of Stars Wars, Lando Calrission and his Hizzy, the cape he wears when Leia and Han go to him for help. Lando was completely duped by while he was trying to save his own world at the expense of Leia & Han.
Another very interesting connection of clothing is Buffy's orange top - she wears the same little top in the issue when the red seed is first shown and when she is shown beat up and extremely agitated and crying - this is one of the time-shift episodes - sorry I don't have the Issue No. Buffy wears a very orange top, I think it is intended to represent the same outfit in the dreamscape "Always Darkest" mini comic. Buffy wears the same outfit in the coming issue when she is fighting The Master - in all three issues the clothing connect to her meeting with The Master.
Here is some speculation about Ethan Rayne & Spike being connected in the Dreamscape - the idea that these two characters are actually combined, with Spike now having arrived seems plausible, especially with Ethan and Buffy and the theme of something important that should be remembered. Spike now tells her that he has information well worth remembering.
I will post the images at flickr -
Another very interesting connection of clothing is Buffy's orange top - she wears the same little top in the issue when the red seed is first shown and when she is shown beat up and extremely agitated and crying - this is one of the time-shift episodes - sorry I don't have the Issue No. Buffy wears a very orange top, I think it is intended to represent the same outfit in the dreamscape "Always Darkest" mini comic. Buffy wears the same outfit in the coming issue when she is fighting The Master - in all three issues the clothing connect to her meeting with The Master.
Here is some speculation about Ethan Rayne & Spike being connected in the Dreamscape - the idea that these two characters are actually combined, with Spike now having arrived seems plausible, especially with Ethan and Buffy and the theme of something important that should be remembered. Spike now tells her that he has information well worth remembering.
I will post the images at flickr -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here is the link for my Flickr - remember to open the image and use the "actions" for larger sizes -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 20 2010 12:35 am #24ladycat713
Guest
What is it about Angel that makes Buffy turn into a lovesick 12 year old? I don't get it at all.
Her behavior when she lost her virginity to him is one thing and forgivable (some of it) considering her lack of knowledge about the curse and her youth. But this just makes her look like a complete idiot. She knows he's trouble and she knows he killed the Slayers .
If Dawn is the one that dies , it'd be an interesting touch to have her turn out to be Buffy and Spike's child (because that makes more sense than they made her out of you) and definitely have it be Angel's fault. Spike loves Dawn even without that knowledge and he attacks Angel. If Buffy gets in his way he kicks her ass even with any upgrades (maybe because Dawn's key energy goes into him because even with all that happened Dawn trusts Spike to take care of her more than she trusts Buffy).
Having Angel betray Buffy big time (maybe make it where her actions kill Dawn) would enrage all the Bangels who like insipid Buffy-Bella/Twangel and who it's given hope to.
Maybe make it where he needed that to happen all along and Dawn could only be killed by Buffy (her mother) and her energy would go into her father (Angel thinks it's him) but instead it goes into her real father (Spike) .
Maybe they could have Spike and Satsu kick Angel and Buffy's butts. I've thought since Buffy callous behavior in regards to Satsu that it would be neat if Spike took her under his wing as his new Nibblet.
Her behavior when she lost her virginity to him is one thing and forgivable (some of it) considering her lack of knowledge about the curse and her youth. But this just makes her look like a complete idiot. She knows he's trouble and she knows he killed the Slayers .
If Dawn is the one that dies , it'd be an interesting touch to have her turn out to be Buffy and Spike's child (because that makes more sense than they made her out of you) and definitely have it be Angel's fault. Spike loves Dawn even without that knowledge and he attacks Angel. If Buffy gets in his way he kicks her ass even with any upgrades (maybe because Dawn's key energy goes into him because even with all that happened Dawn trusts Spike to take care of her more than she trusts Buffy).
Having Angel betray Buffy big time (maybe make it where her actions kill Dawn) would enrage all the Bangels who like insipid Buffy-Bella/Twangel and who it's given hope to.
Maybe make it where he needed that to happen all along and Dawn could only be killed by Buffy (her mother) and her energy would go into her father (Angel thinks it's him) but instead it goes into her real father (Spike) .
Maybe they could have Spike and Satsu kick Angel and Buffy's butts. I've thought since Buffy callous behavior in regards to Satsu that it would be neat if Spike took her under his wing as his new Nibblet.
Sep 20 2010 05:13 am #25Spikez_tart
-Having Angel betray Buffy big time - which brings up a question. I just got the Riley book (my bookstore is woefully behind) and Angel goes back to wearing the Twilight mask. What in the world for? Everybody knows who he is so why does he need that dumbass mask?
And, even if Buffy seems to have forgotten the 200 + slayers he's killed, what about Giles, Faith and the rest of them? Surely Giles still hates Angel quite a bit and he's not above stabbing Angel behind Buffy's back. Faith has gooey feelings about him, but if she thought he had gone back to the bad side, she might feel that Angel (with a soul) would Want her to kill Angel (the bad guy). Also, I could see a revolt in the ranks with somebody like Kennedy leading the charge to kill Angel if none of the "leaders" were doing what was necessary.
And, even if Buffy seems to have forgotten the 200 + slayers he's killed, what about Giles, Faith and the rest of them? Surely Giles still hates Angel quite a bit and he's not above stabbing Angel behind Buffy's back. Faith has gooey feelings about him, but if she thought he had gone back to the bad side, she might feel that Angel (with a soul) would Want her to kill Angel (the bad guy). Also, I could see a revolt in the ranks with somebody like Kennedy leading the charge to kill Angel if none of the "leaders" were doing what was necessary.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Spikez_tart -
What do you make of Whistler in "Riley-Commitment Through Distance, Virtue through sin?" Love the title Espenson came up with. It's perfect for the Moral & Ethics questions that Angel/Twangel has followed and the consequences of his choice to follow "The Plan."
How do we get to virtue through sin? I've been trying to see my way through the arguments that his plan to "control numbers" is the right thing - but I just can't find my way to the "virtue" of his "focus/protect strategy" - deaths are still deaths. What Whistler and Angel/Twangel come up with is "strategy of practicality" not of virtue. Their commitment is to abstractions, so very far from where Angel/Angelus began his path of redemption.
Whistler and Angel are calmly making plans and talking about death and destruction and torture, everything that is a complete opposite of "virtue" while handling the religious and magical high symbols of the Jesus Christ and the Grace of God made manifest by the Transubstantiation. The ending panel for their talk takes place directly next to the symbol of death and resurrection and on top of the place where peoples of all faiths commune with their Gods. For all this talk of "The Plan" what we see at the end of all this effort is not Whistler's express goal of saving the world, but the world under attack from the hordes of demons.
Seems to me that Angel has accepted everything on Faith - Whistler's lighter made me think of a moth being pulled into disaster by a flame.
I sure hope that Joss Whedon does not kill Dawn - I think it's time to let Xander have so real love in his life.
I so hate all this waiting time between issues - frankly, I don't know that I have the energy to follow another season of comic books.
What do you make of Whistler in "Riley-Commitment Through Distance, Virtue through sin?" Love the title Espenson came up with. It's perfect for the Moral & Ethics questions that Angel/Twangel has followed and the consequences of his choice to follow "The Plan."
How do we get to virtue through sin? I've been trying to see my way through the arguments that his plan to "control numbers" is the right thing - but I just can't find my way to the "virtue" of his "focus/protect strategy" - deaths are still deaths. What Whistler and Angel/Twangel come up with is "strategy of practicality" not of virtue. Their commitment is to abstractions, so very far from where Angel/Angelus began his path of redemption.
Whistler and Angel are calmly making plans and talking about death and destruction and torture, everything that is a complete opposite of "virtue" while handling the religious and magical high symbols of the Jesus Christ and the Grace of God made manifest by the Transubstantiation. The ending panel for their talk takes place directly next to the symbol of death and resurrection and on top of the place where peoples of all faiths commune with their Gods. For all this talk of "The Plan" what we see at the end of all this effort is not Whistler's express goal of saving the world, but the world under attack from the hordes of demons.
Seems to me that Angel has accepted everything on Faith - Whistler's lighter made me think of a moth being pulled into disaster by a flame.
I sure hope that Joss Whedon does not kill Dawn - I think it's time to let Xander have so real love in his life.
I so hate all this waiting time between issues - frankly, I don't know that I have the energy to follow another season of comic books.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 21 2010 04:20 am #27Spikez_tart
N - it was a terrific title. You should do a banner for that one. I didn't see it had anything to do with the comic.
The whole idea of murdering slayers to even up the score is repulsive. There is no possible way to justify this. It's just more of the Giles morally bankrupt operating theory that the ends justify the means, only now instead of killing one person (Dawn or Dr. Ben), Twilight/Angel is prepared to murder hundreds of young women who didn't ask to be Slayers in the first place (any more than Buffy or Faith did.) This is horrible horrible horrible.
Why can't they just denature the slayers? A lot of them don't want to be slayers anyway. Get out that damn scythe, reverse the spell and suck the slayer juice out of them. If the gang did nothing (presumably allowing more demons to run amok and kill people) at least it would be random nastiness instead of purposeful murder.
We've always accepted that Whistler is a sort of good guy, at least on the moral side - he sort of helped Buffy when Angel's soul went on walkabout, he pulled Angel out of the gutter, but what does he really do besides sick Angel the child molester on Buffy and get him to quit eating rats? I'm having some doubts myself.
I see what you mean by Whistler and Angel hanging out in a church (sort of looked like a crypt to me), then the chalice, the bottle of (holy?) wine, then sitting on the roof of the church like a couple of vultures, then carving up Riley's chest which Angel/Twilight calls a "token of your faith." What is that supposed to prove? In what way is Riley's getting stabbed a token of faith? For an atheist, JW is very free and not very nice with his use (abuse) of religion. Mostly he goes after Christianity, which is not only a cheap shot, but lazy in my opinion. How many shows/movies have we seen with the Evil Priest or the Crazy Cult Minister. He certainly milled the Christianity grist in Season 7, with the crazy evil priest, Spike hanging from a cross and Buffy getting a spear in her side, etc.
Joss could take a page from Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden books. His Michael character is religious without being cloying or annoying. Sympathetic and intelligent. He's kind, but he can get angry and possibly unreasonable when Harry D is being a butthead.That's the way to write about religion and religious characters.
Killing Dawn wouldn't break my heart any, but it seems pointless. Now killing Xander, that would show some guts. :)
The whole idea of murdering slayers to even up the score is repulsive. There is no possible way to justify this. It's just more of the Giles morally bankrupt operating theory that the ends justify the means, only now instead of killing one person (Dawn or Dr. Ben), Twilight/Angel is prepared to murder hundreds of young women who didn't ask to be Slayers in the first place (any more than Buffy or Faith did.) This is horrible horrible horrible.
Why can't they just denature the slayers? A lot of them don't want to be slayers anyway. Get out that damn scythe, reverse the spell and suck the slayer juice out of them. If the gang did nothing (presumably allowing more demons to run amok and kill people) at least it would be random nastiness instead of purposeful murder.
We've always accepted that Whistler is a sort of good guy, at least on the moral side - he sort of helped Buffy when Angel's soul went on walkabout, he pulled Angel out of the gutter, but what does he really do besides sick Angel the child molester on Buffy and get him to quit eating rats? I'm having some doubts myself.
I see what you mean by Whistler and Angel hanging out in a church (sort of looked like a crypt to me), then the chalice, the bottle of (holy?) wine, then sitting on the roof of the church like a couple of vultures, then carving up Riley's chest which Angel/Twilight calls a "token of your faith." What is that supposed to prove? In what way is Riley's getting stabbed a token of faith? For an atheist, JW is very free and not very nice with his use (abuse) of religion. Mostly he goes after Christianity, which is not only a cheap shot, but lazy in my opinion. How many shows/movies have we seen with the Evil Priest or the Crazy Cult Minister. He certainly milled the Christianity grist in Season 7, with the crazy evil priest, Spike hanging from a cross and Buffy getting a spear in her side, etc.
Joss could take a page from Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden books. His Michael character is religious without being cloying or annoying. Sympathetic and intelligent. He's kind, but he can get angry and possibly unreasonable when Harry D is being a butthead.That's the way to write about religion and religious characters.
Killing Dawn wouldn't break my heart any, but it seems pointless. Now killing Xander, that would show some guts. :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 21 2010 01:12 pm #28CM
Guest
Joss could take a page from Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden books. His Michael character is religious without being cloying or annoying. Sympathetic and intelligent. He's kind, but he can get angry and possibly unreasonable when Harry D is being a butthead.That's the way to write about religion and religious characters.
+infinity on this. I LOVE Michael. And I love that Harry isn't "Ack! Christianity!" even though he's a wizard. But I could go on all day about my love for Jim's writing. Istalk follow him on Twitter.
+infinity on this. I LOVE Michael. And I love that Harry isn't "Ack! Christianity!" even though he's a wizard. But I could go on all day about my love for Jim's writing. I
I can't help but get pissed off every time I read a comic book after that Angel/Twangel reveal - And seeing Angel/Twangel again in his SuperVamp Hero role - it just makes me so angry. He is spilling blood alright, those Slayers are covered in the blood from that demon he killed. Little Lost Girls that need the SuperBigMan to come to their rescue? Buffy getting getting trashed by Angel/Twangel and now all is OK, talk about "victim love." Viewers thought Spike was the poster child for Being A Victim and Loving It - what does all this say about Buffy. Is Joss Whedon really going to let this stand, this is going to be how Buffy fans are going to be left with? I just can't believe that after all these years, Buffy is going to be so in love or compassionate to forgive all these sins and transgressions. Fuck the arc and metaphor of New Birth - if Buffy does not demand consequences for this "Plan Focus Strategy" which taking in all the religious sybolism turns Angel/Twangel into the most insane manisfestation of The Son/Jesus Christ taking on the sins of humanity to pay the price for God's Mercy.
About Joss going only after Christianity, it makes sense that he would since the majority of the fan base is of that religious system - but what I get from this is not just Christianity, but Angel/Twangel following the orders of his Gods, TPTB and Prophecy is intended to speak to all the blind followers of "The Truth." I also think that having the clear contrast between Spike using current technology and now, in these latest preview pages, making a clear statement on "super powered morons who never got a higher education" is another way to contrast "the faithful" and "the not blind faithful" - this is something that speaks to all peoples and all religious systems. Just look at what happened with the reverend who was going to burn the demoniacal Holy Book of that other tribe.
Tattoos on the body in some cultures are the symbols of the "always connection" between the magic and its power working in this world - This could be why Joss Whedon wanted Angel to have a tattoo
About Joss going only after Christianity, it makes sense that he would since the majority of the fan base is of that religious system - but what I get from this is not just Christianity, but Angel/Twangel following the orders of his Gods, TPTB and Prophecy is intended to speak to all the blind followers of "The Truth." I also think that having the clear contrast between Spike using current technology and now, in these latest preview pages, making a clear statement on "super powered morons who never got a higher education" is another way to contrast "the faithful" and "the not blind faithful" - this is something that speaks to all peoples and all religious systems. Just look at what happened with the reverend who was going to burn the demoniacal Holy Book of that other tribe.
Tattoos on the body in some cultures are the symbols of the "always connection" between the magic and its power working in this world - This could be why Joss Whedon wanted Angel to have a tattoo
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 22 2010 04:04 am #30Spikez_tart
compassionate to forgive all these sins and transgressions. - There's nothing compassionate about forgiving a murder who continues to murder and who, in fact, has not asked or wanted forgiveness. As far as I've seen, Angel plans to continue on his merry way, otherwise, why continue to wear the mask? What happened to the Angel who devoted his life to making up for the evil things he'd done, knowing that it wasn't really possible? Gone, I guess.
Joss/Christianity - While Joss concentrates his bile for Christians, he throws a few stones at Judaism as well. (And no doubt others.) Having Willow (a) tack a cross up on her wall and (b) become a pagan just about tore it for me. Nothing in the show indicated that JW even considered Willow's embrace of black magic might be a moment of angst or upset for Willow and her family. He boiled Judaism down to Willow not wanting to particpate in Christmas. Sorry, but it's a little more complicated than that.
Spike - where does he fit in on the faith spectrum? I think the episode in the church where he reveals to Buffy that he got his soul back, looks up and says "that's what you wanted, isn't it?" and then embraces (painfully) the cross, indicates that he's a Christian of some sort. I don't remember any other major character having that sort of religious connection. It seems to be a connection with G-d that doesn't involve any ritual or practical aspects.
Tattoo - I always thought Angel's tattoo was a fallen angel metaphor.
Joss/Christianity - While Joss concentrates his bile for Christians, he throws a few stones at Judaism as well. (And no doubt others.) Having Willow (a) tack a cross up on her wall and (b) become a pagan just about tore it for me. Nothing in the show indicated that JW even considered Willow's embrace of black magic might be a moment of angst or upset for Willow and her family. He boiled Judaism down to Willow not wanting to particpate in Christmas. Sorry, but it's a little more complicated than that.
Spike - where does he fit in on the faith spectrum? I think the episode in the church where he reveals to Buffy that he got his soul back, looks up and says "that's what you wanted, isn't it?" and then embraces (painfully) the cross, indicates that he's a Christian of some sort. I don't remember any other major character having that sort of religious connection. It seems to be a connection with G-d that doesn't involve any ritual or practical aspects.
Tattoo - I always thought Angel's tattoo was a fallen angel metaphor.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 23 2010 03:32 pm #31CM
Guest
Yes, William would/probably be raised with church at least as a cultural system if not a belief, and knowing at least that crosses have power against vampires, his poor crazy souled self embraced a way that made sense to atone. (ashes and atonement go hand-in-hand)
They never explored, or were willing to explore, whether holy relics of other religions with significant populations would also burn vampires. Willow never tries to use a Star of David even once to see. (Which goes against a Scientific Method personality, heh.) Love to see what....for instance....Buddhist prayer beads or a copy of the Quran would do. Hinduism has so many deities........maybe you'd have to try the symbol of one of the most popular. Or who knows? But we never got to find out. Only saw Western world vamps that would have grown up with at least a slight familiarity with crosses.
Here's Angel's tattoo: http://www.secretsofangel.com/v3tat.jpeg It's a Griffin with the letter A at its feet.
They never explored, or were willing to explore, whether holy relics of other religions with significant populations would also burn vampires. Willow never tries to use a Star of David even once to see. (Which goes against a Scientific Method personality, heh.) Love to see what....for instance....Buddhist prayer beads or a copy of the Quran would do. Hinduism has so many deities........maybe you'd have to try the symbol of one of the most popular. Or who knows? But we never got to find out. Only saw Western world vamps that would have grown up with at least a slight familiarity with crosses.
Here's Angel's tattoo: http://www.secretsofangel.com/v3tat.jpeg It's a Griffin with the letter A at its feet.
Sep 23 2010 03:35 pm #32CM
Guest
It’s similar to the type of drawing once used in texts for the first letter of a paragraph or page back in the day when books were done by hand and many were true works of art. The Gryphon represents amongst other things, the duality of nature and the wealth of the sun. Just a bit of irony there.
The inspiration for the tattoo seems to be from the Book of Kells. Where it is one of the four traditional winged figures representing the Evangelists. It is the symbol for Saint Mark; with the ox representing Saint Luke; the eagle, Saint John; and the man, Saint Matthew. The book has been in Ireland for centuries, and there is an obvious Celtic influence in the artwork. Celtic knots and circles are prevelant throughout. The book is considered a symbol of Irish nationalism.
http://www.maquisleader.com/buffy/tattoo.htm
Sep 23 2010 03:38 pm #33CM
Guest
"It’s similar to the type of drawing once used in texts for the first letter of a paragraph or page back in the day when books were done by hand and many were true works of art. The Gryphon represents amongst other things, the duality of nature and the wealth of the sun. Just a bit of irony there.
The inspiration for the tattoo seems to be from the Book of Kells. Where it is one of the four traditional winged figures representing the Evangelists. It is the symbol for Saint Mark; with the ox representing Saint Luke; the eagle, Saint John; and the man, Saint Matthew. The book has been in Ireland for centuries, and there is an obvious Celtic influence in the artwork. Celtic knots and circles are prevalent throughout. The book is considered a symbol of Irish nationalism."
http://www.maquisleader.com/buffy/tattoo.htm
Sep 23 2010 04:47 pm #34pfeifferpack
CM: One of the funniest short stories I've read (published not fanfic) and cannot remember its name or author addressed the crosses/vampire issue. No religious item worked on the vampire in the story because the people using them had no real belief in their power....however when a human used money....THAT worked because there was their worshipful belief! ITA they should have had Willow try a Star of David at the very least.
The book of Kells is beautiful. It is a collection of the gospels done by the monks centuries ago. Never saw it in person (it's at Trinity College, Dublin behind glass) but have seen reproductions.
Kathleen
The book of Kells is beautiful. It is a collection of the gospels done by the monks centuries ago. Never saw it in person (it's at Trinity College, Dublin behind glass) but have seen reproductions.
Kathleen
Sep 23 2010 07:34 pm #35ladycat713
Guest
I think it was in the movie Fright Night where a character tried to use a cross against the vampire and the vampire told him he had to have faith in it for the cross to work , either that or the vampire said he was an athiest . I can't remember which, I have not seen it for years.
That would've been an interesting thing to bring up in Buffy especially with Willow being a Jewish Wiccan. At different times of her life would the Star of David work against a vampire and then later a Wiccan symbol? Or would the vampire have to believe in the symbol. They could have brought it up with just one vampire reacting to a cross with no pain by saying I'm Jewish and then having Willow hold up a Star of David.
That would've been an interesting thing to bring up in Buffy especially with Willow being a Jewish Wiccan. At different times of her life would the Star of David work against a vampire and then later a Wiccan symbol? Or would the vampire have to believe in the symbol. They could have brought it up with just one vampire reacting to a cross with no pain by saying I'm Jewish and then having Willow hold up a Star of David.
Sep 26 2010 03:33 am #36Spikez_tart
That would have been cool Lady Cat. The show never makes a point that the crosses are in any way affected by the belief of the wearer. Willow wears a cross sometimes, and surely she doesn't believe in Christianity, so the symbol has power in itself.
Angel's tattoo - I don't think we know this, but did he get the tattoo before or after he became a vampire and what would it mean in either case?
Angel's tattoo - I don't think we know this, but did he get the tattoo before or after he became a vampire and what would it mean in either case?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 26 2010 07:12 am #37ladycat713
Guest
I'd have to think the tattoo came after given the complexity and clearness of it. It depends on what tatto tech was like when Angel was alive.
Adam does bring up this theme of power of Symbols and belief when he is recruiting vampires - and the place that the battle between the vampires and those symbols takes place in the "house of worship" that gives those powers the awesome hold and effect for millions of believers. This is also I think the only time that a character, Riley home grown Iowa boy, talks about going to worship in the entire series. If someone knows different, please let me know.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 28 2010 02:27 am #39CM
Guest
Prior to tattoo guns/pens, tattoos had to be done by dipping the instrument in the ink then poking it into the skin. A metal needle or wood stick. Anything intricate would take a very long time.
We obviously know the tattoo comes from a make-up artist using a stencil so it always looks the same, but a tattoo that intricate and precise is most likely from modern instruments. You could do a tattoo with ink and a guitar string (steel cable), but I wouldn't recommend it.
I can't see Angelus being patient enough for a design to be done on him pre-1900. Pretty sure it was probably Angel. The design isn't Liam's type.....it's too cerebral. From AtS, Angel didn't sound like much of a recluse in the '60s/'70s......until he fed off the dead guy in 1977 and started living in alleys on rats again. Though he also might have chosen it after Whistler recruited him and therefore got it in the '90s.
We obviously know the tattoo comes from a make-up artist using a stencil so it always looks the same, but a tattoo that intricate and precise is most likely from modern instruments. You could do a tattoo with ink and a guitar string (steel cable), but I wouldn't recommend it.
I can't see Angelus being patient enough for a design to be done on him pre-1900. Pretty sure it was probably Angel. The design isn't Liam's type.....it's too cerebral. From AtS, Angel didn't sound like much of a recluse in the '60s/'70s......until he fed off the dead guy in 1977 and started living in alleys on rats again. Though he also might have chosen it after Whistler recruited him and therefore got it in the '90s.
Sep 28 2010 02:27 am #40Spikez_tart
I suppose we could count Joyce's funeral since there was a minister there. Angel dreams that he goes to church to marry Buffy. I think Riley is the only one who goes to church for services. And, there's supposed to be a minister at Anya and Xander's almost wedding. Can't remember if he actually shows up.
There are a number of very minor characters who are involved with organized religion. There's a priest (who dies before Buffy can talk to him) in Pangs, the nun that lets Buffy try on her wimple, Angel comes across a nun while looking for some priest (also dead before hero arrives) and there's the monastery that Spike visits in S7.
There are a number of very minor characters who are involved with organized religion. There's a priest (who dies before Buffy can talk to him) in Pangs, the nun that lets Buffy try on her wimple, Angel comes across a nun while looking for some priest (also dead before hero arrives) and there's the monastery that Spike visits in S7.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 28 2010 07:26 am #41ladycat713
Guest
I think that Angel was feeding off a priest when Dru came into the confessional and Dru was going to take her vows and become a nun. Or was that a fanfic and my headache making me confuse fanon and canon.
Sep 28 2010 12:54 pm #42CM
Guest
Angelus messed with her head once from the other side of the confessional. It's canon. She confessed about her visions and that she'd been trying not to have them.
Sep 29 2010 03:48 am #43Spikez_tart
-Angel was feeding off a priest - not exactly the inspiring religious faith we were looking for. :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Brought over from Buffytube Comic Books discussion -
BAF from Buffyforums just posted this
I've seen part of the Jo Chen cover for Buffy Season 8 #39.
It's in the new Previews catalog.
The top half of the cover is Buffy on the ground from the waist up,face up,head to the side.It looks like she's in the betrayal room cavern from Buffy #10 and Always Darkest.The ground looks the same.
The lower half of the cover starting from Buffy at the waist down is blacked out with the words TOP SECRET in red across it.From the way the cover is set up,the top secret hidden section is hiding someone standing over Buffy.The person who put Buffy on the ground,I think.
So, the Chen cover has the Betrayer on it.
from nmcil at Buffytube:
That first dreamscape has three primary themes - Dawn and Buffy and their emotional feelings of "disconnected" Dawn (Buffy dreaming) that her sister feels that she has been displaced by the new slayers - her love is going to another.
Buffy, IMO, is really thinking of Spike and Xander in the context of how her relationship with Spike went - how she mistreated Spike both emotionally and physically.
She sees herself as "the dark" and she fears her falling into the "darkness" - We have the great line from Xander which, IMO, is a reference back to Spike and his lines to Buffy about using him to scratch that itch. Buffy will scratch that itch with Satsu, wants to scratch it with Xander as another go ala Riley Formula - and of course who she finally goes into MEGA ITCH SCRATCH is with Angel/Twangel.
Once Buffy begins to actually fall down the mirror world rabbit hole, her wish is "I make a wish Not To Fall" but once she is impaled on the X Form, impaled by the claws of the Giant Demon she goes immediately into "new wish" and then she identifies the demon, "I know you" as he is lifting her toward his maw. The demon hisses his answer: "YESSS...SSSCREAM" as it fires her body. The only connection that we have in the dreamscape sequences is when she is going on that walk inside what looks like the inside throat of a giant demon - and she says something about missing the dragon.
The environment for both the "betrayal" panel and the "always darkest" dreamscape are absolutely the same, even the same angles are used. What is different is that in the first "betrayal" panel Buffy is shown laying in a swirl of mist and the Red Egg Seed is broken.
The theme of Guilt and Being Replaced in the last dreamscape has now been transferred from Dawn directly on to Buffy. Instead of feeling guilt over her relationship with Dawn, it is Buffy who is now that object of being replaced and left in need by Spike and Angel/Twangel. Added to this is the very interesting lines by Spike about being very clean and Angel/Twangel asking him if he wants to be even cleaner. The sexual inplication is of course of the most intimate sexual act, which btw, is a repeat of what Buffy and Angel/Twangel first did in the Cosmic Sexcapdes. The psychological implications are of temptation and cleansing - getting rid of that "dirty girl" that Caleb calls her.
What can we infer or speculate about the events in the next issue? One potential scenario is that Angel/Twangel does come back and Buffy becomes his victim. Another possible event is that someone wears his face and Buffy is entrapped, this could also be applied to Spike. It's a lame way to deal with what happens to her and this "betryal" But I just can't see my way to either Angel/Twangel or Spike being the cause of this "betrayal" if the characters are at all to survive and be included in Season 9. Anything that would include Angel/Twangel or Spike as the "betrayer" would destroy the character and leave them only as Evil Villains again.
What are the implications of Buffy being torched by the fire breath of the demon? An entity that she has described as knowing in her first falling into the dark dreamscape?
Buffy is wearing that same top in all these Dreamscape Sequences and she is wearing the same top in the issue previews where is meets The Master.
Sorry, flickr and BSV no longer allow direct images to be posted - Here is the link that shows the orange top she wears http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4994812139/
BAF from Buffyforums just posted this
I've seen part of the Jo Chen cover for Buffy Season 8 #39.
It's in the new Previews catalog.
The top half of the cover is Buffy on the ground from the waist up,face up,head to the side.It looks like she's in the betrayal room cavern from Buffy #10 and Always Darkest.The ground looks the same.
The lower half of the cover starting from Buffy at the waist down is blacked out with the words TOP SECRET in red across it.From the way the cover is set up,the top secret hidden section is hiding someone standing over Buffy.The person who put Buffy on the ground,I think.
So, the Chen cover has the Betrayer on it.
from nmcil at Buffytube:
That first dreamscape has three primary themes - Dawn and Buffy and their emotional feelings of "disconnected" Dawn (Buffy dreaming) that her sister feels that she has been displaced by the new slayers - her love is going to another.
Buffy, IMO, is really thinking of Spike and Xander in the context of how her relationship with Spike went - how she mistreated Spike both emotionally and physically.
She sees herself as "the dark" and she fears her falling into the "darkness" - We have the great line from Xander which, IMO, is a reference back to Spike and his lines to Buffy about using him to scratch that itch. Buffy will scratch that itch with Satsu, wants to scratch it with Xander as another go ala Riley Formula - and of course who she finally goes into MEGA ITCH SCRATCH is with Angel/Twangel.
Once Buffy begins to actually fall down the mirror world rabbit hole, her wish is "I make a wish Not To Fall" but once she is impaled on the X Form, impaled by the claws of the Giant Demon she goes immediately into "new wish" and then she identifies the demon, "I know you" as he is lifting her toward his maw. The demon hisses his answer: "YESSS...SSSCREAM" as it fires her body. The only connection that we have in the dreamscape sequences is when she is going on that walk inside what looks like the inside throat of a giant demon - and she says something about missing the dragon.
The environment for both the "betrayal" panel and the "always darkest" dreamscape are absolutely the same, even the same angles are used. What is different is that in the first "betrayal" panel Buffy is shown laying in a swirl of mist and the Red Egg Seed is broken.
The theme of Guilt and Being Replaced in the last dreamscape has now been transferred from Dawn directly on to Buffy. Instead of feeling guilt over her relationship with Dawn, it is Buffy who is now that object of being replaced and left in need by Spike and Angel/Twangel. Added to this is the very interesting lines by Spike about being very clean and Angel/Twangel asking him if he wants to be even cleaner. The sexual inplication is of course of the most intimate sexual act, which btw, is a repeat of what Buffy and Angel/Twangel first did in the Cosmic Sexcapdes. The psychological implications are of temptation and cleansing - getting rid of that "dirty girl" that Caleb calls her.
What can we infer or speculate about the events in the next issue? One potential scenario is that Angel/Twangel does come back and Buffy becomes his victim. Another possible event is that someone wears his face and Buffy is entrapped, this could also be applied to Spike. It's a lame way to deal with what happens to her and this "betryal" But I just can't see my way to either Angel/Twangel or Spike being the cause of this "betrayal" if the characters are at all to survive and be included in Season 9. Anything that would include Angel/Twangel or Spike as the "betrayer" would destroy the character and leave them only as Evil Villains again.
What are the implications of Buffy being torched by the fire breath of the demon? An entity that she has described as knowing in her first falling into the dark dreamscape?
Buffy is wearing that same top in all these Dreamscape Sequences and she is wearing the same top in the issue previews where is meets The Master.
Sorry, flickr and BSV no longer allow direct images to be posted - Here is the link that shows the orange top she wears http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/4994812139/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 30 2010 08:01 pm #45ladycat713
Guest
Quite frankly I'm hoping it's Satsu. Since that would bring an element of Buffy brought it all on herself .
Unless of course they do the same thing they did with Seeing Red which was have the whole attitude be that Buffy was right to have abused him because he was capable of something like that. Instead of looking at it that Buffy's abuse caused him to finally snap.
Look at how Satsu started out. She would have been taught to look up to Buffy. She fell in love, thought she had gotten somewhere (since you would think that getting someone who identifies as straight to sleep with you and is suppossed to be a hero would mean something) , then got promoted after being slept with twice (and something like that would definitely have people snickering behind Satsu's back) and then completely ignored. Add on to that Buffy having cosmic sex and acting like an airjead over the mass Slayer killer who beat her up (and people thought Spike being the Slayer of Slayers was bad , at least he went in for fair fights!) and Satsu snapping makes perfect sense.
Unless of course they do the same thing they did with Seeing Red which was have the whole attitude be that Buffy was right to have abused him because he was capable of something like that. Instead of looking at it that Buffy's abuse caused him to finally snap.
Look at how Satsu started out. She would have been taught to look up to Buffy. She fell in love, thought she had gotten somewhere (since you would think that getting someone who identifies as straight to sleep with you and is suppossed to be a hero would mean something) , then got promoted after being slept with twice (and something like that would definitely have people snickering behind Satsu's back) and then completely ignored. Add on to that Buffy having cosmic sex and acting like an airjead over the mass Slayer killer who beat her up (and people thought Spike being the Slayer of Slayers was bad , at least he went in for fair fights!) and Satsu snapping makes perfect sense.
One of the first things that is stated regarding Buffy and Satsu and the other Slayers is Satsu telling the other girls that one of them should have been chosen instead of herself to go with Buffy on that special mission. Buffy signals Satsu and the triad, Satsu, Rowena, and Leah from the start and Joss Whedon gave that great big foreshadow about Buffy and Satsu when Buffy tells her that maybe, she Buffy, should try on a new look and the visual of Buffy and Satsu in the early issue is of them holding on to each other. These three slayers are also referred to as "three dead slayers" in the panels where Giles is giving them lectures and talks about fighting - he also has that line about "these three could give Buffy a challenge as fighters -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 01 2010 09:40 am #47ladycat713
Guest
So there's hope that Buffy will have to deal with the consequences of her own behavior. If they do the whole her behavior was retroactively ok like they did with Spike though, I'm going to have to bitch slap Joss Whedon.
Oct 02 2010 05:48 pm #48Belle
Guest
Umm, I probably already know this answer but which of Spike's behavior they treated as retroactive are you talking about??
Oct 06 2010 06:58 pm #50coalitiongirl
Thought I'd drop in with some spoilers: feedback for this issue seems pretty positive. Some early reviews:
1 2
and an NSFW image. :D
1 2
and an NSFW image. :D
Oct 07 2010 12:33 am #51belle
Guest
Well the previews I've seen of #37 seem very interesting. Does the issue end with that scene of Angel talking to the cat and bird? The reviews I've been reading all say its worth getting.
:( I am sad to say that I've gotten over the whole Spike/Buffy thing. I still like to read it in fanfiction, because writers have Buffy growing up and realizing her issues. It also kinda makes me happy that its Buffy (rather than Spike) that's daydreaming about them being together. It kinda seems like it gives Spike his due for the years of fantasizing about her. Also, I gotta disagree with the person who wrote about the sex scene of Spike and Buffy being intimate. From what I saw, Spike seems to be the one who's intimate on there. Buffy just looks like she's enjoying the sex. Spike's hand is caressing Buffy's face and he's looking down at her. That screams intimancy? (dang I can't spell!) It shows that its more than just sex to him. Buffy, however, has her hands on Spike's butt with her head thrown back. And yes, she does look happy, but who doesn't enjoy sex? She's not looking at Spike though. So to me, it doesn't seem like she's invested anything more than her body into that little coupling.
I really REALLY hope that (despite Buffy's fantasies) they don't just jump in the sack together. Especially so soon after what happened with Angel. Spike deserves a little consideration.
I also, have a question! I can't recall because its been a while since I've seen S7 of Buffy, but did she ever apologize to Spike for her behavior and what she did to him during S6???
Though I do enjoy that I can now go 'Ha! Told you she feels something for him!' to all the doubters out there, I don't know how to feel about Buffy and her fantasies. I mean, she just got done having cosmic sex (yes, I still say that while snickering) with her 'one true destiny' guy. He's been gone for a little while, and now she's picturing sex with another guy. There's nothing wrong with that per say, but it's...off somehow (at least to me).
I think Buffy tneeds to go to sex rebhab. lol
I think Buffy tneeds to go to sex rebhab. lol
~ Niori ~
Oct 07 2010 03:13 am #53coalitiongirl
I don't know, I really enjoyed the Spuffy scenes this issue. Spike's doing his job, very businesslike, and Buffy is too- we're just seeing what's going on in her mind at the same time. I like how Buffy defines Spike as her id, and I love that they can have patient conversation even though they still want each other. (We know Buffy wants Spike, anyway, and when has Spike not wanted Buffy? :D)
I found this scene pretty tender and sweet:
and I love how their romance doesn't take over the issue.
Some of the other perks:
(after she daydreams about Spike.)
I'm a fan of the Spuffy this issue, and how in sync they are. They act like they're a couple, not gooey and sappy but an effective team of fighters who rely on and trust each other. It's exactly how I would have liked to see their relationship post-Chosen.
And why does Spike deserve any more than Buffy? Because Buffy jumped into sex with Angel? Spike was in no way, shape or form involved with her. I don't see people bashing Spike for grabbing Harmony in AtS Destiny...Why does Spike need an apology? Because when they had sex in S6, he didn't get her love? She never promised him that- in fact, quite the opposite. He chose to be with her regardless of that, and he got exactly what he knew he was getting- he may have hoped for more, but that's not Buffy's fault. The only really vicious act during S6 on Buffy's part was beating him in the alley, and he wanted her to do it- he specifically says, "put it all on me." Nobody's blameless, but Buffy is not the villain there. Neither of them is.
Sorry, I got a little ranty there. :)
ETA: Niori, someone on Tumblr put it very well: "Obviously, Angel didn't get the job done."
I found this scene pretty tender and sweet:
and I love how their romance doesn't take over the issue.
Some of the other perks:
(after she daydreams about Spike.)
I'm a fan of the Spuffy this issue, and how in sync they are. They act like they're a couple, not gooey and sappy but an effective team of fighters who rely on and trust each other. It's exactly how I would have liked to see their relationship post-Chosen.
And why does Spike deserve any more than Buffy? Because Buffy jumped into sex with Angel? Spike was in no way, shape or form involved with her. I don't see people bashing Spike for grabbing Harmony in AtS Destiny...Why does Spike need an apology? Because when they had sex in S6, he didn't get her love? She never promised him that- in fact, quite the opposite. He chose to be with her regardless of that, and he got exactly what he knew he was getting- he may have hoped for more, but that's not Buffy's fault. The only really vicious act during S6 on Buffy's part was beating him in the alley, and he wanted her to do it- he specifically says, "put it all on me." Nobody's blameless, but Buffy is not the villain there. Neither of them is.
Sorry, I got a little ranty there. :)
ETA: Niori, someone on Tumblr put it very well: "Obviously, Angel didn't get the job done."
lol CG- that made me snort milk out of my nose.
You're right- the Spuffy in here is great. The way the two interact is absolutely perfect- THAT is the Spike and Buffy we're used to and want to see. It was SO much more real than the interactions that Buffy and Angel had through most of the comic. I'm still iffy on the fantasy part though (not so much the kissing, because you're right- that is more of an emotional moment in my eyes). I can't even say why I'm iffy on it...just one of those gut feelings I guess.
Also, the sex rehab was kind of a joke, since sex addiction seems to be the answer for everything these days. Why shouldn't the comic writers jump on the bandwagon? lol
You're right- the Spuffy in here is great. The way the two interact is absolutely perfect- THAT is the Spike and Buffy we're used to and want to see. It was SO much more real than the interactions that Buffy and Angel had through most of the comic. I'm still iffy on the fantasy part though (not so much the kissing, because you're right- that is more of an emotional moment in my eyes). I can't even say why I'm iffy on it...just one of those gut feelings I guess.
Also, the sex rehab was kind of a joke, since sex addiction seems to be the answer for everything these days. Why shouldn't the comic writers jump on the bandwagon? lol
~ Niori ~
Oct 07 2010 04:52 am #55ladycat713
Guest
I saw Spike grabbing Harmony as a knee jerk reaction to being solid again (and he didn't try again after that so that fits with the knee jerk reaction) and he grabbed someone who was willing . It was still a pretty scuzzy thing to do but by that time at least Harmony seemed have fallen out of love with Spike (and just wanted some sex ) unlike the first time he was with her where she was in love with him like Satsu was with Buffy.
An what interesting contrast in that Spike used someone who loved him for sex without that soul they deem so important yet Buffy not only used one person she used two people who loved her with a soul and didn't seem to feel guilt about using either one .
And I thought Buffy hitting Spike in the face when he wanted to talk about thier kissing was vicious not to mention her saying that it was real for you was pretty cold.
And in the picture where she's thinking that Spike's touching her butt maybe that's wishful thinking (or ego) on her part because it seems like he's hanging on.
And No Buffy never apologized. In fact when Spike said something about her abuse in season 7 her response was you're just now getting that in a really snotty tone .
Issue 37:
- Buffy and Spike are wearing similar colors: orange and jeans. It's been their thing since the show.
- Buffy has been criticized for calling Sunnydale "Suckydale", seeing as it was her home for seven years and in it are her mother's, Tara's, and Jenny's graves, as well as the bodies of Anya and Amanda and so many people that Buffy knew and loved. Buffy had lamented the loss of Sunnydale in #1, stating that she missed "home", she does have fond memories of Sunnydale, and her life in it, while difficult, was much simpler than it is now. I think calling it Suckydale has more to do with yet another crisis located there than the town itself. Sunnydale is where evil is born and keeps coming back to destroy the world, I can see why Buffy is a bit resentful.
- I thought it was insensitive of Spike to say that Buffy didn't get higher education, but it shows how upset he is with her. I don't think it's just jealousy, but also disappointment. She's his hero and she made a gigantic mistake.
- Spike takes Xander's old role as Buffy's criticizer, and he does it exactly like Xander: harsh and straightforward. Unlike Willow who's gentler in her criticism of Buffy. It's seems fitting now that someone had to say something to Buffy seeing as Xander can't bring himself to criticize Buffy at all, and Willow saving all her anger for Angel.
- Buffy's fantasies about Spike are so funny, I don't know if it's her or just Twilight's affect. She really wants Spike to still have feelings for her and be jealous and pissed at Angel. It's far more flattering than her dream where Spike and Angel choose each other instead of her.
-Spike seems to be over her, though I don't think so, his cheap shots at her show how jealous and disappointed he is.
- The Xander/Dawn scene oozes of Xander/Anya in The Gift, and I know it's all about a couple being too happy until Joss tears them apart. I should go "Awww" now, but as Xander said, it's too soon. And I'm still waiting for Joss to explore this ship.
- The guy eavesdropping on them is the general who was with Warren and Amy. I wonder what's up with that.
- Spike is rather suspicious, and only Xander noticed that. It seems that with Spike arriving with all the information and a chance to save the world, the other characters are so happy they don't wanna question anything. Xander, being the one who sees, noticed that something is off about Spike's know-it-all attitude. Even Spike's three words didn't answer Xander's question.
- The fact that Xander doesn't get upset and call Spike names after Spike called him "Little Man" shows how much he'd grown past the petty name-calling –which I greatly miss, I like a little immaturity in Xander- and it started since S7. Xander's character growth moves constantly and gradually forward ever since Seeing Red, and it's something that S8 gets so right.
- I'm not sure Spike can be the betrayer, unless there's a twist. He's hiding something all right, but he seems so devoted to Buffy it's hard to imagine him as the betrayer.
- Willow, on the other hand, learns that the Seed of Wonder is the source of all magic. It's what Twilight wants to get rid of, we knew about that since the beginning. Willow asks about the betrayer, and it seems that it's going to be Willow, which is a call back to: "Is it you?" Buffy asked Willow in Anywhere But Here. "No. I won't betray you."
- I'm a little disappointed in the Giles/Faith scene. I thought they were going to discuss Giles lying to Faith and using her to search for the Queen and kill her. Instead they're talking about Faith's retirement and playing teacher to the other troubled slayers. Their scene is similar to Xander/Dawn, it promises a future after this, where Faith can be happy guiding lost girls.
- "There'll still be girls to help. To guide." "Sure hope so." Hmmm, I can see a reverse in Buffy's spell in Chosen. Perhaps S9 will probably be a return to Buffy and Faith being the only slayers.
- Spike is back to the guy who never leaves Buffy alone. Wherever she goes, he's there. He follows her everywhere offering help, support and company.
- "Take us home." I would've loved it more if it was just Xander and Willow, because Sunnydale is literally their home, they were born and raised there.
- Xander demanding he goes with Willow can be seen as contrast to refusing to accompany Buffy in #4. But in #4 it was stated that the portal that will take them to "Sunnydale" can only take two, and Xander rationally asked Buffy to take someone who's a better fighter, because saving Willow is more important. Here, anyone can go, and Buffy needs all the help she can get, and Xander is going to help.
- Aww, I loved Spike's "Did I do that?" Adorable.
- I also enjoy Spike acting tough and ending up in the mercy of the Master until his hero, Buffy, comes and saves his life. There are so many scenes like this in the show, except replace Spike with Xander. "My hero." Aww, all these similarities between Xander and Spike make my heart melt.
- Buffy and Spike are wearing similar colors: orange and jeans. It's been their thing since the show.
- Buffy has been criticized for calling Sunnydale "Suckydale", seeing as it was her home for seven years and in it are her mother's, Tara's, and Jenny's graves, as well as the bodies of Anya and Amanda and so many people that Buffy knew and loved. Buffy had lamented the loss of Sunnydale in #1, stating that she missed "home", she does have fond memories of Sunnydale, and her life in it, while difficult, was much simpler than it is now. I think calling it Suckydale has more to do with yet another crisis located there than the town itself. Sunnydale is where evil is born and keeps coming back to destroy the world, I can see why Buffy is a bit resentful.
- I thought it was insensitive of Spike to say that Buffy didn't get higher education, but it shows how upset he is with her. I don't think it's just jealousy, but also disappointment. She's his hero and she made a gigantic mistake.
- Spike takes Xander's old role as Buffy's criticizer, and he does it exactly like Xander: harsh and straightforward. Unlike Willow who's gentler in her criticism of Buffy. It's seems fitting now that someone had to say something to Buffy seeing as Xander can't bring himself to criticize Buffy at all, and Willow saving all her anger for Angel.
- Buffy's fantasies about Spike are so funny, I don't know if it's her or just Twilight's affect. She really wants Spike to still have feelings for her and be jealous and pissed at Angel. It's far more flattering than her dream where Spike and Angel choose each other instead of her.
-Spike seems to be over her, though I don't think so, his cheap shots at her show how jealous and disappointed he is.
- The Xander/Dawn scene oozes of Xander/Anya in The Gift, and I know it's all about a couple being too happy until Joss tears them apart. I should go "Awww" now, but as Xander said, it's too soon. And I'm still waiting for Joss to explore this ship.
- The guy eavesdropping on them is the general who was with Warren and Amy. I wonder what's up with that.
- Spike is rather suspicious, and only Xander noticed that. It seems that with Spike arriving with all the information and a chance to save the world, the other characters are so happy they don't wanna question anything. Xander, being the one who sees, noticed that something is off about Spike's know-it-all attitude. Even Spike's three words didn't answer Xander's question.
- The fact that Xander doesn't get upset and call Spike names after Spike called him "Little Man" shows how much he'd grown past the petty name-calling –which I greatly miss, I like a little immaturity in Xander- and it started since S7. Xander's character growth moves constantly and gradually forward ever since Seeing Red, and it's something that S8 gets so right.
- I'm not sure Spike can be the betrayer, unless there's a twist. He's hiding something all right, but he seems so devoted to Buffy it's hard to imagine him as the betrayer.
- Willow, on the other hand, learns that the Seed of Wonder is the source of all magic. It's what Twilight wants to get rid of, we knew about that since the beginning. Willow asks about the betrayer, and it seems that it's going to be Willow, which is a call back to: "Is it you?" Buffy asked Willow in Anywhere But Here. "No. I won't betray you."
- I'm a little disappointed in the Giles/Faith scene. I thought they were going to discuss Giles lying to Faith and using her to search for the Queen and kill her. Instead they're talking about Faith's retirement and playing teacher to the other troubled slayers. Their scene is similar to Xander/Dawn, it promises a future after this, where Faith can be happy guiding lost girls.
- "There'll still be girls to help. To guide." "Sure hope so." Hmmm, I can see a reverse in Buffy's spell in Chosen. Perhaps S9 will probably be a return to Buffy and Faith being the only slayers.
- Spike is back to the guy who never leaves Buffy alone. Wherever she goes, he's there. He follows her everywhere offering help, support and company.
- "Take us home." I would've loved it more if it was just Xander and Willow, because Sunnydale is literally their home, they were born and raised there.
- Xander demanding he goes with Willow can be seen as contrast to refusing to accompany Buffy in #4. But in #4 it was stated that the portal that will take them to "Sunnydale" can only take two, and Xander rationally asked Buffy to take someone who's a better fighter, because saving Willow is more important. Here, anyone can go, and Buffy needs all the help she can get, and Xander is going to help.
- Aww, I loved Spike's "Did I do that?" Adorable.
- I also enjoy Spike acting tough and ending up in the mercy of the Master until his hero, Buffy, comes and saves his life. There are so many scenes like this in the show, except replace Spike with Xander. "My hero." Aww, all these similarities between Xander and Spike make my heart melt.
Oct 07 2010 05:11 pm #57ladycat713
Guest
Xander's criticisms of Buffy with Spike really had more to do with the damage done by Angel than Spike itself. I wish he'd saved those criticisms for when Angel showed up and history really repeated itself in the comics . Now when he can't bear to criticize her is when she really needs someone to say you've done this before and people died.
Spike loves her (still I think) but he has no illusions built up about her and he knows she's capable of some pretty stupid stuff and isn't afraid to to call her on it. That makes him a good match for her unlike Angel . Both she and Angel have a bad habit of never admitting they are wrong so they basically enable each other. That's also why I liked Cordy with Angel. She would call him on his crap. I shipped them from the time he was drugged and started acting like he lost his soul (it had a plothole big enough to drive an 18 wheeler through though) and she had him knocked out and tied up PDQ. She also left him tied up because of the things he said . If he'd been dating Cordy she would have had him researching ways to anchor his soul or just remove the happiness clause instead of doing the who star crossed lovers bit like he did with Buffy.
I really hope they reverse that spell. I thought in Chosen it should have at least been limited to Sunnydale. Those girls deserve an apology especially considering that Buffy made the same sweeping decision for all of them that she complained about being made for her in being made a Slayer.
Oct 07 2010 07:25 pm #58Nick Scarlett
Guest
I hate to be Glass Half Empty Guy, but I can't help feeling that these Spuffy scenes are just Joss equalizing again. In Chosen, he tried to strike a balance between Bangels and Spuffies by having Buffy share the dramatic kiss with Angel and imply they'd get together one day after her cookies had baked, then later the same episode she went to bed with Spike and told him she loved him. Now she's having cosmic sex with Angel and telling him he has her heart and it was her bestest day ever, then imagining herself kissing and having sex with Spike shortly after. Seems like Joss has decided it's in his best interest to keep both Bangels and Spuffies' hopes alive, so that when one gets a moment, maybe the other has to get one too, just to restore the balance.
I'm with Belle, I love Spuffy in fanfiction because, as she said, Buffy is allowed to deal with her issues and mature as a character, which never happens on the show. I think the damage done to her in Suprise/Innocence was something she never recovered from, which is why Riley, Spike, Xander or anybody else who tries to love her is doing so in vain. She only seems capable of loving that idealized version of Angel (pre-Innocence, issue #35, etc.) that never really existed in the first place. In that way, the show and comics have for me become something of a prequel for the fanfiction stories. All the best BtVS moments happen in fanfic. :)
Still, I'm glad to see Buffy at least acknowledge Spike in the comics. Her initial reaction in #36 was disappointing, but #37 was a definite improvement. And Spike is great here. He's doing what he thinks is right rather than begging for crumbs from Buffy. Spike haters on the boards used to insist that every good thing Spike did was just to score points with Buffy. I think that's pretty conclusively been proven false by Season 5 of Angel and by the comics.
As to whether Spike could be Buffy's betrayer, I still doubt it. That wouldn't make a lot of dramatic sense at this point, since it wouldn't really bring the pain the way Joss likes to. Buffy would just say "I knew you were evil all along," kill him, and declare her love for Angel. The rest of the characters don't like Spike anyway, so they wouldn't care either. I think a betrayal by Dawn, Giles, Willow or Xander would be a bigger event for the Scoobies, and more unexpected. Unless...
Are we sure the betrayer will be wrong? Perhaps it will be over a disagreement about the Seed of Wonder. Maybe she will want to smash it, but someone else will want to protect it for valid reasons. Would destroying magic also undo a magical construct such as Dawn? If Buffy hasn't considered that possibility, maybe Spike, Willow or Xander will. Then the betrayer might actually be doing her a favor.
Oct 08 2010 04:44 am #59ladycat713
Guest
I'm with Nick in that I don't trust the Spuffy to lead anywhere we'll like.
I also agree with him and Belle with our love of fanfiction because it tallows the characters (especially Buffy) to grow and mature as people in ways that Joss seems to reluctant to let happen(ESPECIALLY with Buffy).
And good point that the betrayer might not necessarily be in the wrong. Given the streeak of bad behavior by Buffy in seaosn 8 she's been the one in the wrong the betrayer could be in the right . It could just be someone she thought would follow her no matter what. Of course you would think one of her close friends betraying her would no longer surprise her given that they (and the Sunnydale Slayers) turfed her out of her own house with no weapons and a bunch of bad guys out for her blood in Sunnydale.
For it to be a surprise it would have to be somone who hasn't betrayed her before and who she thinks would never betray her for some reason. My money (If I had any) is still on Satsu since Buffy might be under the impression that Satsu's love for her would keep her from betraying her . Buffy might not have thought of the phrase there's a thin line between love and hate and Buffy's treatment of her could definitely lead to hate.
I hope that if it is her that she's in the right and that one of the reasons she now questions Buffy's actions is how Buffy shatttered her heart when she proved that Satsu meant nothing to her when she ignored her the next time she saw her after she had promoted her and how Kennedy was pretty much sent to deal with her.
Though I thought that line in the issue about them sending the other lesbian Slayer made no sense given the odds and how many Slayers there are there has to be a lot more lesbian and bisexual Slayers . Probably less than 50 percent of the Slayers combined but there would definitely be more than 2 lesbian Slayers.
I also agree with him and Belle with our love of fanfiction because it tallows the characters (especially Buffy) to grow and mature as people in ways that Joss seems to reluctant to let happen(ESPECIALLY with Buffy).
And good point that the betrayer might not necessarily be in the wrong. Given the streeak of bad behavior by Buffy in seaosn 8 she's been the one in the wrong the betrayer could be in the right . It could just be someone she thought would follow her no matter what. Of course you would think one of her close friends betraying her would no longer surprise her given that they (and the Sunnydale Slayers) turfed her out of her own house with no weapons and a bunch of bad guys out for her blood in Sunnydale.
For it to be a surprise it would have to be somone who hasn't betrayed her before and who she thinks would never betray her for some reason. My money (If I had any) is still on Satsu since Buffy might be under the impression that Satsu's love for her would keep her from betraying her . Buffy might not have thought of the phrase there's a thin line between love and hate and Buffy's treatment of her could definitely lead to hate.
I hope that if it is her that she's in the right and that one of the reasons she now questions Buffy's actions is how Buffy shatttered her heart when she proved that Satsu meant nothing to her when she ignored her the next time she saw her after she had promoted her and how Kennedy was pretty much sent to deal with her.
Though I thought that line in the issue about them sending the other lesbian Slayer made no sense given the odds and how many Slayers there are there has to be a lot more lesbian and bisexual Slayers . Probably less than 50 percent of the Slayers combined but there would definitely be more than 2 lesbian Slayers.
coalitiongirl -
What did you do to get images posted here? my old method no longer works here.
Thanks for posting all the images -
What did you do to get images posted here? my old method no longer works here.
Thanks for posting all the images -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here is and the summary:
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER #40
Written by Joss Whedon, pencils by Georges Jeanty, inks bt Andy Owens, colored by Michelle Madsen, covers by Jo Chen and Jeanty.
Final issue. "Last Gleaming," art 5 of 5. Season Eight has at last brought Buffy the long way home, and betrayal comes in the shape of the closest, most unexpected individual of all. Reeling from their losses, the Scoobies will never be the same again.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER #40
Written by Joss Whedon, pencils by Georges Jeanty, inks bt Andy Owens, colored by Michelle Madsen, covers by Jo Chen and Jeanty.
Final issue. "Last Gleaming," art 5 of 5. Season Eight has at last brought Buffy the long way home, and betrayal comes in the shape of the closest, most unexpected individual of all. Reeling from their losses, the Scoobies will never be the same again.
Here are the finale cover previews:
Jeanty cover: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/5060855527/sizes/l/in/photostream/
Jo Chen cove: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/5060855445/sizes/l/in/photostream/
Spike-Buffy "the cork & bottle" http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/5061271972/sizes/l/in/photostream/
Spike-Xander "the cork & bottle" http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/5061225018/sizes/l/in/photostream/
Veiriti -
One can't really make informed judgments based on these covers without the text and the previous issues. Look at the Jeanty cover for this issue. There was all speculation about what the image cover implied about the story and what was going to happen to Xander and Willow and Buffy based on their "death images" for the cover - but this issue had absolutely nothing whatever connected to the image shown on the cover.
We all had a "gut feeling" that Joss Whedon would make Spike into the "betrayer" but all the text does not support this conclusion. What is a disturbing visual is one that shows the exchange between Spike and Xander and this discussion of "the cork and wine bottle" metaphor. Of all the things that we have seen presented about Spike, this is the most cryptic and can be interpreted different ways. And it's important that Buffy also brings in the theme of the bottle being upside down. In that exchange Spike tells her "it's a seventy-year-old Madeira. I'm not dumping on the floor just "cause you have no imagination..." Buffy "you're the one who made a big thing with the cork.." Spike "the point is.." Buffy "..if the seed's removed, the world goes bye."
The potentially miserable part for Spike as the betrayer in the visuals using "the cork" metaphor is with the Spike - Xander discussion where Spike is shown tossing "the cork" away over his shoulder. This can be interpreted different ways, but it literally is turning my stomach even as I type, just thinking that Joss Whedon would be so cruel to all his devoted fans and the devoted Spike fans to set up all this Spike arc just to use him as the "emotional gutting" plot device.
Another important plot point, as far as I can see that is important, is in the dreamscape Spike, separate from Buffy's dreamscape, tells her how they can stop the world from being destroyed. Plus Spike is connected with Buffy's father figure Giles, and the theme of "learning lessons" and this third outside party is causing Buffy to miss the lesson while she is off in her sexual dreamscape.
This entire series, and especially since the Brad Meltzer arc has been so confusing with the extreme story telling treatment that was decided on. It's been nothing but confusing with the story and the character treatments. How many of us would actually bet money on our speculations of this series. How many of us have any real confidence in our attempts to interpret or understand what is actually happening? How sad is it that with only three issues to go, we are still fearful and trying to figure out if a character that has been nothing a force for "Good" that has been the strongest and most loyal supporter of Buffy could be the one who will betray her. Spike has endured personal torture to protect her sister and has accepted all the physical and emotional torture that Buffy has inflicted on him, has become the most powerful symbol of the entire series and to think that Joss Whedon would turn all that over just to inflict emotional reactions on a truly devastating level to his fans – it just does not make any sense that he would do that. What possible benefit would that bring to his story? Plus, Spike is not in the position of being this close to Buffy – and unless Buffy is going to declare her undying love to Spike in the coming issues, he is not a good candidate to be the one who could devastate her with a betrayal.
Unless Joss Whedon has been playing all readers and Spike fans for fools, and is going to play one of the biggest “screw the fans” I refuse to believe that Spike is going to be chucked over and that Angel/Twangel is going to be the “screw-up” that is the last vamp standing.
Interesting that what Jo Chen shows is the Scythe, the greatest gift that Spike ever gave Buffy, outside of burning up for her and saving the world, and that the Slayer Power Scythe is now destroyed.
Who knows, maybe Spike is going to get that reward and become something even more powerful than his Vampire persona – I'm just going to channel Andrew and his faith and innocence in the magical world of super heroes and Spike love
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I am still on "think about mode" - but one thing is very interesting, that what Spike told Buffy about being afraid if the new life form comes looking for "mummy" and it has come looking for "daddy" instead. Plus bringing in the theme of "soulless shell" from The Master and his "no matter what you might think of it" is that a reference to Spike or to this new life form? All of a sudden introducing this theme of "soul vs souless" Is the master referring to Angel/Angelus and to the vital distinction that Buffy always makes regarding him? Who or What is The Master speaking of?
I'm not sure that I like having the dreamscape sex and desires from Buffy. What does it really mean? In one of the panels she mentioned "after effects" - what exactly does that mean? She is confused and tired and the exchange with Spike about whom she is thinking about is answered with Buffy: "no mystery! already solved. Let's go back just a teeny bit." The whole "sex thing" to me feels like Buffy is still not making her own choices and been very much influenced by a third party. I like very much what the "day dreaming" is showing, it's all so much in contrast to all that "cosmic sex" this dreamscape is so much about being comfortable and doing exactly what Buffy has not been able to do, and has wanted to do - connect deeply with another person. It's why she went with Satsu, and what she wanted with Xander. Why she falls into the " we be happy in love and happy together at last" with Angel/Twangel. I love as a Spuffy fan what the fantasy dreamscape is showing, but it leaves Buffy and Spike in the reality of "Spike believing that she is thinking all about Angel/Twangel and nothing about what her dreamscape reveals.
Great point over at Buffy Forum, unfortunately I don't have the name, about the contrasts of how comfortable Buffy and Spike are in his bedroom and how this is so utterly different from the bathroom scene and their horrendous tragic experience with the AR. The first thing we see after the mean spirited first encounter is Buffy coming out of his bathroom shower and everything in such a quality of two people completely confortable with one another.
The problem with the dreamscape and all of Buffy's sappy facial expressions and "happy face" is that the reality faces show a great deal of tension and saddness and pain. After the first section of the sequence - until Buffy starts talking about what happened with Angel/Twangel, their facial expressions take on a very different quality. Buffy goes into her honest exposition about what she was feeling when her "cosmic sex" takes over - I get the impression that she was little more than a vessel for this third party force - that force used her emotional vulnerability and loneliness to manipulate her. Since Buffy states that she is still having "effects" then hopefully we can also believe that the things she is feeling and expressed in her dreamscape, are based on true feelings for Spike. But Spike is not a "happy camper" in the part of the sequence. Why does Buffy want Spike to fee anger and pain, and to such an extreme? The level of hurt he would be feeling with his "can you think of a single creature on any plane of existence that wants to hear this less?" - he is saying essentially no one in any place in this world and any other can feel more pain than you have given me with what you have done with Angel. To me, this dreamscape is like Buffy is dreaming her truths, this dreamscape reflects genuine feelings of love for him and emotional honesty. Visually, it's important, the switch to all the wonderful strong effulgent light immediately after she call him "my dark." What kept them in such a tragic place in Season Six was that she did not want to see her "dark" - she put all her "dark" onto Spike and wanted to blame him for all the things she did not want to accept as part of herself. That kiss in her dreamscape reminds me more than anything of their last scene together in "Chosen."
Unfortunately, where we leave this scene is Spike in facial expression of tension and pain and Buffy, but still thinking of Buffy and her comfort and need and Buffy with that desparate anguished expression and her comment "God...my brains's turning into cinemas over here..."
Earth might be a much safer place without the wonder and magic, but it would be a much duller place and I think would be greatly diminished. No Pain and No Suffering, isn't that what Angel/Twangel wanted and worked so hard for - what kind of a human life is that? that is the fantasy.
When you bring in the theme of Yin/Yang and both dark and light being needed - human life is not possible without having both light and dark and pain and joy - just as, IMO, you can't have beautiful and passionate dreams of what you can accomplish and create without the "wonder" that magic of human intelligence and spirit.
Regarding Angel/Twangel his strategy of "focus/channel/Protect" has brought about, the issue shows a great deal of destruction and deaths and he is the cause of that.
Interesting visuals on Willow's clothing - she has all those "XX" marks and there are repeated 3 times and they also show that one "X" inside the square. Can't help but think of those "X's" in the Ethan Rayne dreamscape.
And if the ending panel is suppose to introduce the theme of The Griffin - then Angel/Twangel and this New Life form could go in several ways - just before the ending image we see is what looks like a raven riding on that transformed cat. That green glo mimics the portals that have been shown with Angel, Willow, Spike and Buffy. the Green Glo at the tail could very well connect back to Willow's Aluwyn serpent lover who could actually turn out to be one of the guardians of a hell dimension. The Elemental Women Goddesses have called her as belonging to a "mad realm."
Well we are in for a wild ride as Spike tells Buffy.
I'm not sure that I like having the dreamscape sex and desires from Buffy. What does it really mean? In one of the panels she mentioned "after effects" - what exactly does that mean? She is confused and tired and the exchange with Spike about whom she is thinking about is answered with Buffy: "no mystery! already solved. Let's go back just a teeny bit." The whole "sex thing" to me feels like Buffy is still not making her own choices and been very much influenced by a third party. I like very much what the "day dreaming" is showing, it's all so much in contrast to all that "cosmic sex" this dreamscape is so much about being comfortable and doing exactly what Buffy has not been able to do, and has wanted to do - connect deeply with another person. It's why she went with Satsu, and what she wanted with Xander. Why she falls into the " we be happy in love and happy together at last" with Angel/Twangel. I love as a Spuffy fan what the fantasy dreamscape is showing, but it leaves Buffy and Spike in the reality of "Spike believing that she is thinking all about Angel/Twangel and nothing about what her dreamscape reveals.
Great point over at Buffy Forum, unfortunately I don't have the name, about the contrasts of how comfortable Buffy and Spike are in his bedroom and how this is so utterly different from the bathroom scene and their horrendous tragic experience with the AR. The first thing we see after the mean spirited first encounter is Buffy coming out of his bathroom shower and everything in such a quality of two people completely confortable with one another.
The problem with the dreamscape and all of Buffy's sappy facial expressions and "happy face" is that the reality faces show a great deal of tension and saddness and pain. After the first section of the sequence - until Buffy starts talking about what happened with Angel/Twangel, their facial expressions take on a very different quality. Buffy goes into her honest exposition about what she was feeling when her "cosmic sex" takes over - I get the impression that she was little more than a vessel for this third party force - that force used her emotional vulnerability and loneliness to manipulate her. Since Buffy states that she is still having "effects" then hopefully we can also believe that the things she is feeling and expressed in her dreamscape, are based on true feelings for Spike. But Spike is not a "happy camper" in the part of the sequence. Why does Buffy want Spike to fee anger and pain, and to such an extreme? The level of hurt he would be feeling with his "can you think of a single creature on any plane of existence that wants to hear this less?" - he is saying essentially no one in any place in this world and any other can feel more pain than you have given me with what you have done with Angel. To me, this dreamscape is like Buffy is dreaming her truths, this dreamscape reflects genuine feelings of love for him and emotional honesty. Visually, it's important, the switch to all the wonderful strong effulgent light immediately after she call him "my dark." What kept them in such a tragic place in Season Six was that she did not want to see her "dark" - she put all her "dark" onto Spike and wanted to blame him for all the things she did not want to accept as part of herself. That kiss in her dreamscape reminds me more than anything of their last scene together in "Chosen."
Unfortunately, where we leave this scene is Spike in facial expression of tension and pain and Buffy, but still thinking of Buffy and her comfort and need and Buffy with that desparate anguished expression and her comment "God...my brains's turning into cinemas over here..."
Earth might be a much safer place without the wonder and magic, but it would be a much duller place and I think would be greatly diminished. No Pain and No Suffering, isn't that what Angel/Twangel wanted and worked so hard for - what kind of a human life is that? that is the fantasy.
When you bring in the theme of Yin/Yang and both dark and light being needed - human life is not possible without having both light and dark and pain and joy - just as, IMO, you can't have beautiful and passionate dreams of what you can accomplish and create without the "wonder" that magic of human intelligence and spirit.
Regarding Angel/Twangel his strategy of "focus/channel/Protect" has brought about, the issue shows a great deal of destruction and deaths and he is the cause of that.
Interesting visuals on Willow's clothing - she has all those "XX" marks and there are repeated 3 times and they also show that one "X" inside the square. Can't help but think of those "X's" in the Ethan Rayne dreamscape.
And if the ending panel is suppose to introduce the theme of The Griffin - then Angel/Twangel and this New Life form could go in several ways - just before the ending image we see is what looks like a raven riding on that transformed cat. That green glo mimics the portals that have been shown with Angel, Willow, Spike and Buffy. the Green Glo at the tail could very well connect back to Willow's Aluwyn serpent lover who could actually turn out to be one of the guardians of a hell dimension. The Elemental Women Goddesses have called her as belonging to a "mad realm."
Well we are in for a wild ride as Spike tells Buffy.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 08 2010 10:42 pm #63Nick Scarlett
Guest
I hadn't read comic books in many years until the Angel: After the Fall series came out, but I read them a lot when I was a kid, and one thing I noticed was how often the cover was misleading about the story inside. Upon first look at the Jeanty cover, it would seem logical to make the following assumptions:
Angel, Buffy, Faith, Giles, Willow & Xander are still alive in issue 40.
Dawn & Spike are dead or are no longer part of the group. I'd guess Dawn dead, Spike out of the group. It hasn't been long enough since the last time he died for them to go there again.
That's if the cover is an accurate representation of what we'll find inside. If it is, then somehow Angel has found acceptance with the Scoobies again, which seems unlikely at this point. With Buffy, yes, but the rest of them, hardly.
According to the description of #38, someone close to Buffy joins up with "an old enemy" (the Master, it appears) against Buffy because they have a shared goal - "protecting the seed." I think it's realistic that some of the characters might want to protect the seed. Willow would hate to see all magic removed from the world, wouldn't she? And if they thought Dawn, who was created by magic, would cease to exist if the seed was destroyed, I can see Dawn or Xander attempting to protect it, even if it meant temporarily allying with the Master. Spike too, if the writers ever re-watch Season 5 and remember that Dawn used to be Spike's best friend. I think there's been a memory-wipe spell placed on them about that.
So I don't think the "traitor" is going to be actually turning evil or doing anything they can't come back from. As for Spike not being present in the aftermath issue, I wouldn't be surprised. He has no close ties to any of them except Buffy and right now he has every reason to believe she's chosen Angel. I think if the business is done, he will get back in his ship with his bugs and leave. Especially if he disagrees with how things have played out in #39, and the choices that were made.
Angel, Buffy, Faith, Giles, Willow & Xander are still alive in issue 40.
Dawn & Spike are dead or are no longer part of the group. I'd guess Dawn dead, Spike out of the group. It hasn't been long enough since the last time he died for them to go there again.
That's if the cover is an accurate representation of what we'll find inside. If it is, then somehow Angel has found acceptance with the Scoobies again, which seems unlikely at this point. With Buffy, yes, but the rest of them, hardly.
According to the description of #38, someone close to Buffy joins up with "an old enemy" (the Master, it appears) against Buffy because they have a shared goal - "protecting the seed." I think it's realistic that some of the characters might want to protect the seed. Willow would hate to see all magic removed from the world, wouldn't she? And if they thought Dawn, who was created by magic, would cease to exist if the seed was destroyed, I can see Dawn or Xander attempting to protect it, even if it meant temporarily allying with the Master. Spike too, if the writers ever re-watch Season 5 and remember that Dawn used to be Spike's best friend. I think there's been a memory-wipe spell placed on them about that.
So I don't think the "traitor" is going to be actually turning evil or doing anything they can't come back from. As for Spike not being present in the aftermath issue, I wouldn't be surprised. He has no close ties to any of them except Buffy and right now he has every reason to believe she's chosen Angel. I think if the business is done, he will get back in his ship with his bugs and leave. Especially if he disagrees with how things have played out in #39, and the choices that were made.
Good Post Nick -
This very issue illustrates your "covers misleading" point - the Jeanty cover showed those horrendous images of Buffy back in school and the high school timeline with Willow and Xander and many other dead all around Buffy. Yet none of this happened in this issue. The covers, now with the text, reads more like a premonition of nightmare dreamscape - all the dreamscapes have now taken on a much greater importance.
With Jo Chen's covers, also you can tell very little of what is going to happen until you have the text. And the description are written so that various interpretations are possible. Words and Images out of context are abstractions - and they have the potential, almost like the magics of this "mystery universe conception" theme, to form completely new realities when manipulated by powerful forces. Look what in this current issue is shown about Angel/Twangel and forces that he choice to follow. I'm sure that we will get more back story for this, but right now - the power of words and his apparent faith in them has caused great destruction all over Earth -
Seeing Angel/Twangel as part of the group was a surprise based on all that Jeanty interview stuff about how fans were going to react to the character. However, he could have been primarily thinking about the readers that are extremely disgusted with the character now.
And your idea of Spike getting in his space ship with his Alien Insects and leaving them all behind, sounds like something a lot of Spike fans would actually like. It would help solve some of the problems that Dark Horse might encounter with his huge number of fans if Spike is perceived as having suffered from any bias in favor of Angel/Angelus. It will be very interesting to see what treatment Joss Whedon has planned for him - and how he could be reintegrated into The Buffyverse or a new Angelverse. They have trashed the character to such a degree that many readers simply don't care about Angel/Angelus anymore - it is going to take some fine story telling to bring back those readers, of which I included myself.
This very issue illustrates your "covers misleading" point - the Jeanty cover showed those horrendous images of Buffy back in school and the high school timeline with Willow and Xander and many other dead all around Buffy. Yet none of this happened in this issue. The covers, now with the text, reads more like a premonition of nightmare dreamscape - all the dreamscapes have now taken on a much greater importance.
With Jo Chen's covers, also you can tell very little of what is going to happen until you have the text. And the description are written so that various interpretations are possible. Words and Images out of context are abstractions - and they have the potential, almost like the magics of this "mystery universe conception" theme, to form completely new realities when manipulated by powerful forces. Look what in this current issue is shown about Angel/Twangel and forces that he choice to follow. I'm sure that we will get more back story for this, but right now - the power of words and his apparent faith in them has caused great destruction all over Earth -
Seeing Angel/Twangel as part of the group was a surprise based on all that Jeanty interview stuff about how fans were going to react to the character. However, he could have been primarily thinking about the readers that are extremely disgusted with the character now.
And your idea of Spike getting in his space ship with his Alien Insects and leaving them all behind, sounds like something a lot of Spike fans would actually like. It would help solve some of the problems that Dark Horse might encounter with his huge number of fans if Spike is perceived as having suffered from any bias in favor of Angel/Angelus. It will be very interesting to see what treatment Joss Whedon has planned for him - and how he could be reintegrated into The Buffyverse or a new Angelverse. They have trashed the character to such a degree that many readers simply don't care about Angel/Angelus anymore - it is going to take some fine story telling to bring back those readers, of which I included myself.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 09 2010 10:17 am #65CM
Guest
It's SO CHEESY that Spike is dressed in James' "Captain John" clothes from Torchwood. Light brown t-shirt, jeans, the tall boots......all he's missing are the jacket and the belts for his weapons.
All of the clothing in the series, other than the outfits worn by Willow, were like things very young girls would wear - all those little t-shirts with animals, I know they must mean something - Jeanty has the Slayers in some pretty outlandish outfits. His issue 35 cover has Satsu in a very peculiar outfit.
I frankly, can't even begin to understand what Joss Whedon was trying to accomplish with his Season 8 - I'm surprised that more readers and fans have not said how silly this premise of "cosmic sex" using Buffy and Angel/Twangel resulting in the creation of a "new universe" reads. When are we going to get something in this story that makes any kind of sense or explains why they needed to totally destroy Angel/Angelus as a viable hero model - how can the character be made acceptable again after the treatment in this series? It's friggin perverse how the character is used - I feel like I'm seeing a mirror world conversion of The Fallen Angel Lucifer creating his own universe and his Adam has become a moron and his Eve is poster girl for abused women.
It is really going to be interesting to see how Joss Whedon is going to go from here - to keep with whole universe thing, how in the world is he going to make this story work? And since Angel/Twangel will apparently be back with a nice new series of Angelverse in 2011, he must be getting the Mega Clean -Up off all time.
And how will they solve the problem of Bangel? Unless Joss Whedon is going follow the example of the doggie guide and grow a pair, finally give us Uber Angelus and The Apocalypse with The Senior Partner - Buffy accepting him back in her life will be such a negative statement about women as victims of men.
Here is a small announcement on Dark Horse and The Whedonverse in 2011 -
I frankly, can't even begin to understand what Joss Whedon was trying to accomplish with his Season 8 - I'm surprised that more readers and fans have not said how silly this premise of "cosmic sex" using Buffy and Angel/Twangel resulting in the creation of a "new universe" reads. When are we going to get something in this story that makes any kind of sense or explains why they needed to totally destroy Angel/Angelus as a viable hero model - how can the character be made acceptable again after the treatment in this series? It's friggin perverse how the character is used - I feel like I'm seeing a mirror world conversion of The Fallen Angel Lucifer creating his own universe and his Adam has become a moron and his Eve is poster girl for abused women.
It is really going to be interesting to see how Joss Whedon is going to go from here - to keep with whole universe thing, how in the world is he going to make this story work? And since Angel/Twangel will apparently be back with a nice new series of Angelverse in 2011, he must be getting the Mega Clean -Up off all time.
And how will they solve the problem of Bangel? Unless Joss Whedon is going follow the example of the doggie guide and grow a pair, finally give us Uber Angelus and The Apocalypse with The Senior Partner - Buffy accepting him back in her life will be such a negative statement about women as victims of men.
Here is a small announcement on Dark Horse and The Whedonverse in 2011 -
The Whedonverse Expands at Dark Horse
'Dollhouse' Joins 'Buffy,' 'Angel,' 'Spike,' & 'Willow'
Published: 10/09/2010 10:57am
Dark Horse is planning a major expansion of its Joss Whedon-related licensed comics in 2011. Dark Horse’s Jeremy Atkins told ICv2 that when Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Nine debuts in mid-2011 it will be joined by a monthly Angel comic along with spin-offs featuring Willow and Spike.
Dark Horse’s Atkins also told ICv2, “Additionally we are going to be picking up Dollhouse where it left off on the television show, much like we did with Buffy. We are starting as a mini-series and we will see where it goes from there. It will be written by Jed Whedon, who worked on the show as well.”
Dark Horse recently re-acquired the rights to Angel (see “Angel Comics Head Back to Dark Horse”), and the current Buffy Season Eight series, which continued the narrative of the cancelled TV series, is Dark Horse’s bestselling comic book title.
Here is the link for the Scott Allie NY ComicCon with Buffyfest discussing the conclusion of the season 8 and plans for 2011.
http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/10/buffyfest-interviews-dark-horses-super.html
My scans for his issue are now posted at my flickr site - remember to click on the images to open the actions and access the "all sizes"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
The remaining page for the issue are at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/doubledutchess/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 11 2010 09:59 pm #67Nick Scarlett
Guest
You make a good point about the upcoming Angel series. I think Joss and Scott went for their big moment with the Twilight unmasking and thought nothing could have been bigger than letting it turn out to be Angel. I think they may have underestimated how hard it will be to salvage the character after this. No one still seems to be supportive of him except the diehard Bangels, and they're not nearly the majority at this stage of the franchise. Can Angel still carry a title after this debacle? I can't imagine it will have many readers if Spike or Buffy aren't in it, and it would strain credibility to have Spike and Angel being able to coexist after this storyline. Actually, I think the Willow and Spike books sound more interesting than Buffy and Angel.
My guess is they'll try to come up with stories that involve all the characters and continue in each other's books to try to get everyone to buy them all rather than just whatever their favorite character is in.
My guess is they'll try to come up with stories that involve all the characters and continue in each other's books to try to get everyone to buy them all rather than just whatever their favorite character is in.
Oct 12 2010 02:44 am #68Spikez_tart
It's SO CHEESY - really, if they're going to steal, they should go all the way and give him that damn jacket. I really really hated the bugs so much that I didn't notice what Spike was wearing, except that it wasn't black and I thought it was just a thing where they thought it wouldn't look good in the comic art. Why is Spike hanging around with bugs? Where did he get that stupid submarine or whatever the hell it is? Why does one story need two submarines? Why does this story need any submarines? Good to know Joss is delving into the deep philosophical questions of the day.What is Joss Thinking? From the fact that he's stated that he would throw in the towel on this S8 if he had a chance to make a movie, it appears that he's thinking Let Me Milk This Fan Cow For All Its Worth.Angel - Buffy - Spike - Willow - The fact that they're contemplating four different story lines sort of implies that Buffy won't be involved with either Angel or Spike. :(
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I wrote an e-mail to Chris Ryall when this first all started, something I never do - I actually had no idea that I was sending it him, but posting a comment on the forum - that is so typical for me. Anyway, he replied and send me an e-mail - thanking me for taking the time to express my concern for the Angelverse at IDW. One of the things that I stated then, was that as a reader I was effectively going to see the character through the "Twilight Filter." - what he did over at Season 8 was going to effect readers, and it has. I looked at the Spoiler IDW Preview Images and I saw some images that effect how I think of Buffy Season 8 and images that directly effected what I saw of the IDW Images - and they were not of the 'good Angel/Angelus feeling" as a matter of fact, seeing that image with my experience of Angel/Twangel produced a strong negative reaction. Frankly I was surprised just how deep my negative feeling for this character have become.
Scott Allie talked a little in the interview about the backlash from many fans against Angel/Twangel - it seems that this man really does not have an understanding of just how much this story has trashed the character. It's like he keeps thinking that what the readers and fans are upset about is the story and elements of the story - or if Angel and Buffy are the "true love" - but what so many readers are pissed off by are things of so much more importance. Like if beating up on Buffy and Satsu even Faith is something that can be put in the story and people don't give a hell about it - or have any problems with women being played as victims - and with Buffy, even worse, being a victim and then falling into the arms of the person who beat on her.
Allie talks about Angel/Twangel and his history as if there were not a fundamental difference between other things he has done and the bringing on the potential global annihilation - we see all the death and destruction in the current issue - just how horrible are the consequences of his choices. We now know that Angel/Twangel is still going on with the "road of redemption" how are the readers expected to just accept the justification that "I was not myself, the universe set-us up" that is so much bullshit - That's right up there with the "Twinkies Defense."
With the NFA arc, at least we could accept the story because Angel/Angelus had been going through this long period of falling further and further from his mission and his motivation to keep fighting the good fight. But Season 8 gives us so little of a back story to clarify the actions of the character. And excuse me, but as much as I liked the Joss/Allie joke on fandom and "exposition" the little we were given with dogs and planes and Angel Voices just does not do it - it doesn't for me anyway.
As far as Religion and Personal Agendas and Perspectives - Obviously that is one of the primary themes - and Angel and this story going with "I thought I was doing the right thing and working for the greater good, which really turns out I was really only doing for my love Buffy" pretty weak defense. You can't get away with having Angel/Twangel cause all the global destruction and death and have the conclusion be a justification and defense based on intent.
What do you think that this will somehow come back on Buffy's . Keep thinking of her comment to Xander regarding Dawn "and once again sports fans, it's all my fault." and I think that Buffy's started being influenced by this third outside party well before her fateful encounter with Angel/Twangel and the "glo" and "cosmic sexcapades."
Scott Allie talked a little in the interview about the backlash from many fans against Angel/Twangel - it seems that this man really does not have an understanding of just how much this story has trashed the character. It's like he keeps thinking that what the readers and fans are upset about is the story and elements of the story - or if Angel and Buffy are the "true love" - but what so many readers are pissed off by are things of so much more importance. Like if beating up on Buffy and Satsu even Faith is something that can be put in the story and people don't give a hell about it - or have any problems with women being played as victims - and with Buffy, even worse, being a victim and then falling into the arms of the person who beat on her.
Allie talks about Angel/Twangel and his history as if there were not a fundamental difference between other things he has done and the bringing on the potential global annihilation - we see all the death and destruction in the current issue - just how horrible are the consequences of his choices. We now know that Angel/Twangel is still going on with the "road of redemption" how are the readers expected to just accept the justification that "I was not myself, the universe set-us up" that is so much bullshit - That's right up there with the "Twinkies Defense."
With the NFA arc, at least we could accept the story because Angel/Angelus had been going through this long period of falling further and further from his mission and his motivation to keep fighting the good fight. But Season 8 gives us so little of a back story to clarify the actions of the character. And excuse me, but as much as I liked the Joss/Allie joke on fandom and "exposition" the little we were given with dogs and planes and Angel Voices just does not do it - it doesn't for me anyway.
As far as Religion and Personal Agendas and Perspectives - Obviously that is one of the primary themes - and Angel and this story going with "I thought I was doing the right thing and working for the greater good, which really turns out I was really only doing for my love Buffy" pretty weak defense. You can't get away with having Angel/Twangel cause all the global destruction and death and have the conclusion be a justification and defense based on intent.
What do you think that this will somehow come back on Buffy's . Keep thinking of her comment to Xander regarding Dawn "and once again sports fans, it's all my fault." and I think that Buffy's started being influenced by this third outside party well before her fateful encounter with Angel/Twangel and the "glo" and "cosmic sexcapades."
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Missing pages are not all posted at Flickr - the pages were scanned by myself and another member at buffytube - so you will need to visit both our pages. Both links are posted with the images. Remember to click on the images and use the actions to open the "see all sizes"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 12 2010 08:51 am #71ladycat713
Guest
I remember this convo from somewhere (I'm not sure , I fall asleep with the tv on a lot) 1st Person says Why didn't you realize you were going too far?
2cd Person. I was too busy going too far!
it seems to fit with this.
I'd love for some character (preferably of Angel and the Scoobies) to actually admit and apologize something was thier fault instead of having some bulls**t excuse . That's one of the things I like about Spike , he wasn't one to make up excuses.At most he would say he's evil. He didn't even use the it wasn't me I didn't have a soul excuse that was preestablished because of Angel . I would have loved for him to use that on Buffy in season 7 if season 6 and the AR came up. He could of said I didn't have a soul what's your excuse for the things you did?
Quite frankly I think it would have been great for Buffy's mental health and maturity if Angel had gone up to Buffy and said he was sorry for his actons without a soul. He could hace said I had plenty of time to find out about the out clause and I didn't even try. You had no way of knowing that I could lose my soul but I should have.
I think blaming herself for Angel losing his soul and the damage done warped her .
2cd Person. I was too busy going too far!
it seems to fit with this.
I'd love for some character (preferably of Angel and the Scoobies) to actually admit and apologize something was thier fault instead of having some bulls**t excuse . That's one of the things I like about Spike , he wasn't one to make up excuses.At most he would say he's evil. He didn't even use the it wasn't me I didn't have a soul excuse that was preestablished because of Angel . I would have loved for him to use that on Buffy in season 7 if season 6 and the AR came up. He could of said I didn't have a soul what's your excuse for the things you did?
Quite frankly I think it would have been great for Buffy's mental health and maturity if Angel had gone up to Buffy and said he was sorry for his actons without a soul. He could hace said I had plenty of time to find out about the out clause and I didn't even try. You had no way of knowing that I could lose my soul but I should have.
I think blaming herself for Angel losing his soul and the damage done warped her .
Here is the link for the NYCC - you will find both the Scott Allie Interview with the Buffyfest group and text of the IDW interview -
Both spoilerish - so if that bothers you, don't view or read. By this point, spolers don't bother me one bit.
http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/search/label/NYCC%202010
Both spoilerish - so if that bothers you, don't view or read. By this point, spolers don't bother me one bit.
http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/search/label/NYCC%202010
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
So....anyone read the new Spike comic? Is it worth me actually spending money, poor student that I am?
~ Niori ~
don't have the new Spike, but I do have the Buffy Issue 38 scanned at my flickr site if anyone wants to read it - http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/collections/72157625197398007/
I read the new Spike - it's ok, I think it may get better as the series goes along - and especially as this will have the back story of Spike and his encounter with the Insect Aliens - plus a Spike and Drusilla reunion - I guess eventually also a Willow crossover. Brian Lynch and Franco Urru have had a lot of very good comments on their previous work with the character.
I'm probably not the best source of info on the issue since I don't really come from a comic book readership. I am primarily reading them out of desperation for more Buffyverse and Angelverse - and new Spike stories. I don't think I really "get comic books" - like that whole thing they have with Dru carrying on about how much Spike meant so much to her Dru: " No matter what you do, where you explore and where you go, I'm meant for Spike. He has my heart. I don't expect you to understand." The series clearly established that Angelus was the real holder of of heart and the "everything" for Dru. All of this is taking place in bed, while she is naked and having sex with some other vamp - beautiful artwork. But still, Drusilla was not devoted to Spike, but I'm sure Brian Lynch will make it all work in the end. And it will be interesting to see how he handles Spike and Dru after all this time.
Spike in the meantime is being swatted around like a fly by Angel/Twangel in Season 8 - and they still had Buffy totally playing the "I Love Angel So Much Victim" just before he start another round of "let's beat the shit out of Buffy" but it don't matter 'cause she seems to be all fine with it. Guess she will start to hit back in the next issue. I am having a really hard time with how much Joss Whedon is trashing the character and making her such a willing victim.
And of course, as totally expected, it is now established that Angel/Twangel gets to have his "clean up character again" since he is being controlled by Lion Griffin and Dark Horse will be doing a Angelverse series after Season 8. I find it hard to believe that we are going to be treated to Evil Corrupted Angel/Angelus in this new franchise for the Angelverse, so I'm going on the assumption that he gets to come back again to redeem himself for being a part of all this destruction and deaths of thousands of people.
Who knows, maybe there will be a big dramatic and logical resolution from Joss Whedon - but they have made me dislike the character so much now, that I'm like Rhett with the not caring.
I read the new Spike - it's ok, I think it may get better as the series goes along - and especially as this will have the back story of Spike and his encounter with the Insect Aliens - plus a Spike and Drusilla reunion - I guess eventually also a Willow crossover. Brian Lynch and Franco Urru have had a lot of very good comments on their previous work with the character.
I'm probably not the best source of info on the issue since I don't really come from a comic book readership. I am primarily reading them out of desperation for more Buffyverse and Angelverse - and new Spike stories. I don't think I really "get comic books" - like that whole thing they have with Dru carrying on about how much Spike meant so much to her Dru: " No matter what you do, where you explore and where you go, I'm meant for Spike. He has my heart. I don't expect you to understand." The series clearly established that Angelus was the real holder of of heart and the "everything" for Dru. All of this is taking place in bed, while she is naked and having sex with some other vamp - beautiful artwork. But still, Drusilla was not devoted to Spike, but I'm sure Brian Lynch will make it all work in the end. And it will be interesting to see how he handles Spike and Dru after all this time.
Spike in the meantime is being swatted around like a fly by Angel/Twangel in Season 8 - and they still had Buffy totally playing the "I Love Angel So Much Victim" just before he start another round of "let's beat the shit out of Buffy" but it don't matter 'cause she seems to be all fine with it. Guess she will start to hit back in the next issue. I am having a really hard time with how much Joss Whedon is trashing the character and making her such a willing victim.
And of course, as totally expected, it is now established that Angel/Twangel gets to have his "clean up character again" since he is being controlled by Lion Griffin and Dark Horse will be doing a Angelverse series after Season 8. I find it hard to believe that we are going to be treated to Evil Corrupted Angel/Angelus in this new franchise for the Angelverse, so I'm going on the assumption that he gets to come back again to redeem himself for being a part of all this destruction and deaths of thousands of people.
Who knows, maybe there will be a big dramatic and logical resolution from Joss Whedon - but they have made me dislike the character so much now, that I'm like Rhett with the not caring.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Thank you for posting this link to the scans of the comics nmcil :). It's the only way I can read since I no longer buy them. I pretty much agree with what you say about Buffy...she's a victim that loves her abuser. It's beyond pathetic and i don't know how Joss or Scott Allie or whoever the hell is finishing S8 will resolve this. I doubt they will to our satisfaction. The Eminem and Rihanna song "Love the Way you Lie" is the new theme song for Buffy/Twangel IMO.==>"Just gonna stand there and watch me burn, but that's all right because I like the way it hurts. Just gonna stand there and hear me cry, but that's all right because I love the way you lie I love the way you lie. " Totally pathetic. :(
And I'm enough of a paranoid Spike fan that sometimes I think somehow things will end up being Spike's fault. You know he won't come out of this unscathed, and Jeanty has said that he won't be smelling like roses and will be "charred and bloody" so I'm thinking he'll be on fire again *sigh* And I don't trust any of them enough to think they won't kill him off again...even with the news that he'll have his own comic for S9. :( Have you seen the cover for #39? It's Buffy and Angel fighting..but Angel is dressed like Spike looks in the comics, with the brownish t-shirt tucked into black jeans with a belt. You know Angel was wearing a white untucked shirt and black pants not jeans. God knows what that means.
And of course Angel/Twangel will be redeemed and whitewashed. Did you ever doubt it? He's possessed by Kitty Twilight..it's not his fault...*rolls eyes* Some day I wish Joss will have the balls to have Angel actually OWN all the terrible things he's done. Wishful thinking on my part I guess.
Right now I despise Angel. and Buffy is not far behind..so I really find myself with not caring AT ALL what happens to them. Right there with you Rhett...Frankly my dear I don't give a damn...( God I wish Spike would say this at some point)
And I'm enough of a paranoid Spike fan that sometimes I think somehow things will end up being Spike's fault. You know he won't come out of this unscathed, and Jeanty has said that he won't be smelling like roses and will be "charred and bloody" so I'm thinking he'll be on fire again *sigh* And I don't trust any of them enough to think they won't kill him off again...even with the news that he'll have his own comic for S9. :( Have you seen the cover for #39? It's Buffy and Angel fighting..but Angel is dressed like Spike looks in the comics, with the brownish t-shirt tucked into black jeans with a belt. You know Angel was wearing a white untucked shirt and black pants not jeans. God knows what that means.
And of course Angel/Twangel will be redeemed and whitewashed. Did you ever doubt it? He's possessed by Kitty Twilight..it's not his fault...*rolls eyes* Some day I wish Joss will have the balls to have Angel actually OWN all the terrible things he's done. Wishful thinking on my part I guess.
Right now I despise Angel. and Buffy is not far behind..so I really find myself with not caring AT ALL what happens to them. Right there with you Rhett...Frankly my dear I don't give a damn...( God I wish Spike would say this at some point)
Actually, looking at the cover for 39, I picked up right away that both Angel (at least I think) and Buffy are in the same outfits as that web comic 'Always Darkness' (the one with the awesome Spangel), and she's in the same room/chamber that that took place in. I'm...intrigued as to how it might fit into that. Personally, I'd love to see Caleb again, since he just rocked.
Not that I'll buy the comic or anything, but still. I'll probably only read it if Nmcil posts it.
And I can see it being Spike's fault too. *sigh*. Why does Spike always seem to be a scapegoat?
Not that I'll buy the comic or anything, but still. I'll probably only read it if Nmcil posts it.
And I can see it being Spike's fault too. *sigh*. Why does Spike always seem to be a scapegoat?
~ Niori ~
Nov 07 2010 01:02 am #77Spikez_tart
nmcil - do you have issue 37 posted? My bookstore stopped buying them. I complained bitterly and the clerk looked at me like I have two heads. I'm pretty sure I don't have two heads.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 07 2010 01:09 am #78ladycat713
Guest
They probably love to blame Spike because he's the character that got away from them (he was originally suppossed to die) and he defies all the "rules" that were suppossed to be set in stone by Angel. Even when they come up with examples that Angel bull is just that they refuse to acknowledge it.
Harmany was pretty much the same (except for diet change) even after she was turned, Dru was drove insane before she was turned because as Darla said (I'm paraphrasing) what you are determines what you become, there was that vamp couple on ATS that Angel had known that after Angel killed her , the male got his heart removed by a doctor so that he could travel in daylight and not be killed by staking for a short period of time before dusting so he could take his revenge because he loved his girlfriend .
There's been a lot of examples that proves the Coucil doesn't know what they are talking about when they say vampires can't love and that Angel's ego makes him parrot that because it's him that can't love and he thinks he's the end all and be all for vampires.
They went and created a compelling character that was acted by a fantastic actor and it honks them off that he's so popular . They wanted the whole relationship thing to be a triangle with Buffy waffling between Xander and Angel (check the early promo pictures) and for Buffy to actually be really insipid in spite of the whole girl power thing.
Harmany was pretty much the same (except for diet change) even after she was turned, Dru was drove insane before she was turned because as Darla said (I'm paraphrasing) what you are determines what you become, there was that vamp couple on ATS that Angel had known that after Angel killed her , the male got his heart removed by a doctor so that he could travel in daylight and not be killed by staking for a short period of time before dusting so he could take his revenge because he loved his girlfriend .
There's been a lot of examples that proves the Coucil doesn't know what they are talking about when they say vampires can't love and that Angel's ego makes him parrot that because it's him that can't love and he thinks he's the end all and be all for vampires.
They went and created a compelling character that was acted by a fantastic actor and it honks them off that he's so popular . They wanted the whole relationship thing to be a triangle with Buffy waffling between Xander and Angel (check the early promo pictures) and for Buffy to actually be really insipid in spite of the whole girl power thing.
Spikez_tart..here's a download link for #37
www.sendspace.com/file/fp8w2i part a
www.sendspace.com/file/tv37ho part b
www.sendspace.com/file/fp8w2i part a
www.sendspace.com/file/tv37ho part b
I will be doing scans for the last two issues -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
What does anyone make about how clearly Spike is being portrayed as easily swatted around in this issue - just wondering if it is connected in anyway to his being with Insects - a life form that is easily gotten out of the way - swatted like a fly or crashed under foot like a bug. Plus, I always thought that Dawn's reaction to being in his ship was played for laughs but that since it had such emphasis, it felt like a foreshadow. Plus she made that comment about the ship breathing. Was that a foreshadow for the military man spying on them or do you think there might relate to Spike and the insect crew. I noticed that the ship has an environment suit that looks very much like the suits used in "Reign Of Fire" and the suits that were being used my the military in the first issue.
I've been running a small survey at our comics discussions group on how readers would rate the enjoyment of the series - scale from 1 to 10. While not many have responded, those who did have given it very poor ratings. all under 5.
Another question - with the now clear indication, at least it comes across that way, that Angel/Twangel is completely taken over the Lion Griffin and no longer going to be held responsible for the events in Issue 39 - how do you feel about this treatment?
Has the character been trashed to such an extent that you would be likely to not want to get into the new Angelverse at Dark Horse?
Pretty much the two characters that are seen as most likely to be involved in the last conflict between the core group are Willow and Xander - what is the speculation here?
Taking in the "Always Darkest" dreamscape, does anyone think that Spike might be tempted to try and upgrade his own power?
I've been running a small survey at our comics discussions group on how readers would rate the enjoyment of the series - scale from 1 to 10. While not many have responded, those who did have given it very poor ratings. all under 5.
Another question - with the now clear indication, at least it comes across that way, that Angel/Twangel is completely taken over the Lion Griffin and no longer going to be held responsible for the events in Issue 39 - how do you feel about this treatment?
Has the character been trashed to such an extent that you would be likely to not want to get into the new Angelverse at Dark Horse?
Pretty much the two characters that are seen as most likely to be involved in the last conflict between the core group are Willow and Xander - what is the speculation here?
Taking in the "Always Darkest" dreamscape, does anyone think that Spike might be tempted to try and upgrade his own power?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 10 2010 12:54 am #82ladycat713
Guest
If I live directly across the street from a comic shop where I had won the right to go in and take any comics I want home for the rest of my life, I would consider carrying home and reading yet another instance of where Angel literally gets away with murder without ever having to take responsibility for any of his actions to be a waste of time , money and effort.
The new IDW Illyria Series came out today - I like the first issue - has 2 lovely pages that feature Spike and Fred/Illyria in a dreamscape sequence. It's a wonderful change to have this new issue which is actually about real human emotions and not just all Super Action and Puff Story. I liked particularly the sections with Illyria alone and with Spike, but I enjoyed all of it. The artwork very nice and handles the facial expressions well. I will post those two pages at flickr or my picassa album later on -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 11 2010 02:10 am #84Spikez_tart
Thanks Ami for the download. The comics are like a train wreck, I've just got to look.
Okay, so there's the piece where Buffy and Spike kiss in a golden glow kind of panel. This is all in Buffy's imagination, right? I got that her fantasizing about have another up hump with Spike was a dream and since the colors on both panels are the same, I thought the first must be a little brain cramp on Buffy's part.
I'm glad to see that Buffy does have some feelings in that little pea heart of hers for Spike.
Okay, so there's the piece where Buffy and Spike kiss in a golden glow kind of panel. This is all in Buffy's imagination, right? I got that her fantasizing about have another up hump with Spike was a dream and since the colors on both panels are the same, I thought the first must be a little brain cramp on Buffy's part.
I'm glad to see that Buffy does have some feelings in that little pea heart of hers for Spike.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Spikez_tart...from what I've seen in discussions and from reading the damn thing X amount of times, the whole scene from when she gets up to comfort Spike and say sorry and Spike is looking down all dejected and she calls him her dark place and they kiss is HER imagination. You'll notice that when the scene starts she's sitting down with a towel around her neck, and when she snaps out of her daydream., she's still sitting down with the towel around her neck, so she NEVER got up to comfort Spike at all. This is why I hate Jeanty's drawings..I don't know what's going on half the time. :(
The thing that's most heinous about these comics to me (besides the space frak...that goes without saying) is the way they've portrayed Buffy...she is selfish, annoying, childish,and seemingly heartless. I really, really dislike her and that's never happened before. Basically I don't care what happens to her. We'll see what the ending of thse comics leave me feeling.Joss has a big task in froint of him and only 2 issues left to do it in.
The thing that's most heinous about these comics to me (besides the space frak...that goes without saying) is the way they've portrayed Buffy...she is selfish, annoying, childish,and seemingly heartless. I really, really dislike her and that's never happened before. Basically I don't care what happens to her. We'll see what the ending of thse comics leave me feeling.Joss has a big task in froint of him and only 2 issues left to do it in.
Nov 11 2010 09:19 pm #86Nick Scarlett
Guest
nmcil, your questions about issue 39 and the future are pretty much the same that I've been pondering. Hate to be cynical, but I think the reason Spike was swatted so easily was just to get him out of the way. I think the major moves on the seed in #39 will be made by Giles, Willow and Xander, as Buffy and Angel fight (or have sex, as they did the last time she found out he was the bad guy). I don't think Spike really had much of a purpose in this story. I think he's here to:
1. try to boost sales by getting Spike fans who weren't buying the book to pick it up.
2. balance things out a little for all the Bangel. They're afraid if either of the major shipper groups completely gives up, they'll drop out and won't be there to buy any of the Season 9 Buffyverse books. They went pretty heavy on the Bangel, plus all the writers spoke so highly of it, so they had to also show that Buffy still desires Spike, so the Spuffies will have hope for the future. Joss tried a similar balancing act in "Chosen."
3. Show up from the outside with some knowledge so the characters and readers could figure out what's going on enough to set up the big finish.
I think it is impossible for me to figure out how to rate the series at this point because I only started with #34, and there are so many possibilities. I think Season 8 will ultimately be judged by its ending. If it's brilliant and blows me away, I may go back and buy the graphic novels and get the whole thing. If not, I may not read the Season 9 comics. The plot has been somewhat ridiculous, with two characters mating and birthing a new universe. More of a comic book plot than a Buffy plot. But it has put the characters in some interesting positions, which is a pretty important plot function. What will Giles do? He seems to have a mysterious agenda. Willow will attempt to protect the seed. How far will she go and what will that bring about? And Xander will try to destroy the seed. If he is successful, will that save the day? Or will it doom the girl he loves, who is a magical construct? How these events play out, who lives and dies, plus how Buffy views both Bangel and Spuffy when this is over, I think will determine how a lot of fans view the success or failure of the series.
You're right, Angel's excuse has already been provided for, so he will be blameless for anything he does from here on out. It lessens the power of the story, but I think is necessary. Joss, Scott & Dark Horse have no financial incentive to destroy Angel's character beyond redemption. I like Angel, and wouldn't actually want to see this. I despise B/A, though, and would love to see it destroyed forever, although I don't think it ever will be.
Speaking of Angel, do any of you get the feeling the PTB's are surprised at the unpopularity of Bangel this time around? Given comments by Scott Allie, Georges and Brad Meltzer, I think they thought it was like in Seasons 1-3, where the majority of the audience was rooting for B/A. On the boards like Buffy Forums and Slayalive, you see a handful of Bangels who liked the "Them F%*&ing" issue, but the consensus was decidedly against it, and not just from Spuffies.
"Has the character been trashed to such an extent" that it would ruin the future Dark Horse Angel book? Maybe. Angel may get a pass for everything he does next issue, but their attempts to explain how he became Twilight in the first place haven't satisfied many. I was hoping they'd have given him a better motivation, such as seeing a future where one of the slayers had killed Connor, or trying to stop some kind of Slayers vs. armies X-Men "Days of Future Past" type apocalyptic future from happening. Instead, it seems like he was willing to fall for any kind of nonsense as long as he was promised some Bangel as a reward. Not a good setup for a new Angel book. He will need Spike as a supporting character, but is that credible after this story?
1. try to boost sales by getting Spike fans who weren't buying the book to pick it up.
2. balance things out a little for all the Bangel. They're afraid if either of the major shipper groups completely gives up, they'll drop out and won't be there to buy any of the Season 9 Buffyverse books. They went pretty heavy on the Bangel, plus all the writers spoke so highly of it, so they had to also show that Buffy still desires Spike, so the Spuffies will have hope for the future. Joss tried a similar balancing act in "Chosen."
3. Show up from the outside with some knowledge so the characters and readers could figure out what's going on enough to set up the big finish.
I think it is impossible for me to figure out how to rate the series at this point because I only started with #34, and there are so many possibilities. I think Season 8 will ultimately be judged by its ending. If it's brilliant and blows me away, I may go back and buy the graphic novels and get the whole thing. If not, I may not read the Season 9 comics. The plot has been somewhat ridiculous, with two characters mating and birthing a new universe. More of a comic book plot than a Buffy plot. But it has put the characters in some interesting positions, which is a pretty important plot function. What will Giles do? He seems to have a mysterious agenda. Willow will attempt to protect the seed. How far will she go and what will that bring about? And Xander will try to destroy the seed. If he is successful, will that save the day? Or will it doom the girl he loves, who is a magical construct? How these events play out, who lives and dies, plus how Buffy views both Bangel and Spuffy when this is over, I think will determine how a lot of fans view the success or failure of the series.
You're right, Angel's excuse has already been provided for, so he will be blameless for anything he does from here on out. It lessens the power of the story, but I think is necessary. Joss, Scott & Dark Horse have no financial incentive to destroy Angel's character beyond redemption. I like Angel, and wouldn't actually want to see this. I despise B/A, though, and would love to see it destroyed forever, although I don't think it ever will be.
Speaking of Angel, do any of you get the feeling the PTB's are surprised at the unpopularity of Bangel this time around? Given comments by Scott Allie, Georges and Brad Meltzer, I think they thought it was like in Seasons 1-3, where the majority of the audience was rooting for B/A. On the boards like Buffy Forums and Slayalive, you see a handful of Bangels who liked the "Them F%*&ing" issue, but the consensus was decidedly against it, and not just from Spuffies.
"Has the character been trashed to such an extent" that it would ruin the future Dark Horse Angel book? Maybe. Angel may get a pass for everything he does next issue, but their attempts to explain how he became Twilight in the first place haven't satisfied many. I was hoping they'd have given him a better motivation, such as seeing a future where one of the slayers had killed Connor, or trying to stop some kind of Slayers vs. armies X-Men "Days of Future Past" type apocalyptic future from happening. Instead, it seems like he was willing to fall for any kind of nonsense as long as he was promised some Bangel as a reward. Not a good setup for a new Angel book. He will need Spike as a supporting character, but is that credible after this story?
Nov 12 2010 01:58 am #87ladycat713
Guest
I agree with on them bringing Spike in for a sales reason . It's the same reason they had Buffy sleep with Satsu because they thought it would appeal to the GLBTG community and the fanboys who like girl on girl even though ultimately it's just Buffy using a young girl who loves her for sex.
The space screwing was another money making attempt . I'm sure a lot of the sales , just like the Satsu Buffy bed scenes were bought by those too young to buy porn.
Quite frankly , they've sold the storyline up the river for a quick buck. They are learning though that people are unwilling to continue to pay money in exchange for crap past a certain point. Unless they've gotten something spectacular up thier sleeves and I mean mind blowing spectacular, I predict any season 9 sales will sink like a stone.
Buffy and Angel both have become characters who've gone too far. Even in season 6 there seemed some hope for Buffy to become a better person , now there is none. There's no hope for Angel either . They are both characters that have been let off the hook way too many times.
And they misjudged the Bangel market seriously. Many who shipped it during seasons 1 to 3 have moved on to other fandoms or grown past the ship because either they got tired of the ridiculous drama or the whole high school aspect of thier relationship (you know the type of relationship, the ones you roll your eyes at when you see all the drama) . Plus how controlling and manipulative he is to her probably struck home how bad that is for anyone who ended up in a relationship like that.
The ones who remain would like to see a mature relationship happen between them I'm sure and they are being disappointed.
The space screwing was another money making attempt . I'm sure a lot of the sales , just like the Satsu Buffy bed scenes were bought by those too young to buy porn.
Quite frankly , they've sold the storyline up the river for a quick buck. They are learning though that people are unwilling to continue to pay money in exchange for crap past a certain point. Unless they've gotten something spectacular up thier sleeves and I mean mind blowing spectacular, I predict any season 9 sales will sink like a stone.
Buffy and Angel both have become characters who've gone too far. Even in season 6 there seemed some hope for Buffy to become a better person , now there is none. There's no hope for Angel either . They are both characters that have been let off the hook way too many times.
And they misjudged the Bangel market seriously. Many who shipped it during seasons 1 to 3 have moved on to other fandoms or grown past the ship because either they got tired of the ridiculous drama or the whole high school aspect of thier relationship (you know the type of relationship, the ones you roll your eyes at when you see all the drama) . Plus how controlling and manipulative he is to her probably struck home how bad that is for anyone who ended up in a relationship like that.
The ones who remain would like to see a mature relationship happen between them I'm sure and they are being disappointed.
Hey guys here are the preview pages for #39..
www.comicbookresources.com/
Poor Spike...just keeps getting beat on and pushed around. :wah: Looks like it's gonna be bad.
www.comicbookresources.com/
Poor Spike...just keeps getting beat on and pushed around. :wah: Looks like it's gonna be bad.
Nov 12 2010 02:05 am #89ladycat713
Guest
Oh and I forgot, I also agree with you abouyt Xander destroying the seed and him having a mystically created girlfriend. In fact thats the entire reaason they have them together.
I still thinks it's strange that they are together considering how many years he spent hanging onto Buffy (to the detriment of his relationship with Anya) and that Dawn is made of Buffy. In fact if the whole seed/Dawn being destroyed thing is an endgame they planned out then Dawn's cheating and becoming a giant was suppossed to be a way to draw them together (because obviously she couldn't go back to school) physically and emotionally (becuase they've both cheated) .
Though if they did plan all this out that far back, why didn't they see how much thier story sucked?
I still thinks it's strange that they are together considering how many years he spent hanging onto Buffy (to the detriment of his relationship with Anya) and that Dawn is made of Buffy. In fact if the whole seed/Dawn being destroyed thing is an endgame they planned out then Dawn's cheating and becoming a giant was suppossed to be a way to draw them together (because obviously she couldn't go back to school) physically and emotionally (becuase they've both cheated) .
Though if they did plan all this out that far back, why didn't they see how much thier story sucked?
Nov 12 2010 06:23 am #90Jeleyne
Guest
Too horrified to say much about any of this, but something keeps nagging at me about Dawn. If the magic goes away, it stands to reason - as if the comics have any - that Dawn also would go away. Would everyone then forget that she ever existed, much as the spell that created her caused them to forget she hadn’t been there all their lives? How much would that 'forgetting' warp canon (both series and comics)? Would Buffy still have died and, if so, for what? If she didn't die to save Dawn, did her subsequent relationship with Spike exist and under what conditions? Would reality just be altered or totally reset? Modern comics seem to be big on the total reset idea, up to and including wiping out years of established canon. I wouldn’t put it past Joss to use the same trick. No magic, no Dawn, next thing you know the Buffyverse could be reset all the way back to first season or whatever point Joss wants. That goes way beyond instant whitewash, because none of it ever happened. Insane? Of course. But so is flying space sex.
I have finally found something in the comics that made me happy! It's something as simple as a throw away Spangel line (I've been shipping them hard lately), but a miracle has been acheived! The comics genuinely made me smile! Lol.
Also, that whole idea above would make an awesome fic. Someone should totally write it.
Also, that whole idea above would make an awesome fic. Someone should totally write it.
~ Niori ~
Nov 12 2010 05:47 pm #92Nick Scarlett
Guest
"Ultimately, it's just Buffy using a young girl who loves her for sex." Pretty much in character for her.
You make a good point about Angel and Buffy being let off the hook too many times. Just because the writers and characters let them off the hook doesn't mean the fans will. Many of the excellent writers on this site have understood the need to bring Buffy back from many of her past actions, and have done so in their post-Chosen fics, but Joss apparently doesn't see the need. I think the character has been cheated out of a chance to win back many fans by not owning up to her mistakes.
I think the B/A has set the characters way back. Scott Allie said Angel is Buffy's true love and that her feelings for everyone else -- and he specifically mentioned Riley, Spike and Satsu -- "pale in comparison." But if the official Dark Horse/Joss position is that Buffy has never really loved anyone but Angel and never will, then can her personal life ever be interesting again? After Angel says "my bad" and slinks on off to his own book again, maybe Buffy will start seeing someone else, like Satsu, romantically. But why should anyone even bother to love it or hate it? Hasn't it been established that Buffy won't allow herself to love anyone but Angel? Wouldn't Satsu be with Buffy only as long as Angel allowed it? Couldn't Angel come back and reclaim her at any time? Same thing with Angel. I loved his TV series, and After the Fall. But now it looks like none of that was important. He's just been killing time since Graduation Day, waiting on his next shot at Buffy.
I think you're right about most of the B/A fans moving on. B/A was 1998-99. It ended 11 years ago. Many of them probably quit watching during the next couple of years when they weren't together and Buffy was with Riley. Newer fans who replaced them, like me (I started watching at This Year's Girl/Who Are You), never cared anything about B/A. I know some Bangel fans who switched over to C/A or Spuffy. A lot of people for whom B/A strongly appealed are probably much more into Twilight, which is B/A with a happy ending. While Joss has stuck to his "I give the fans what they need, not what they want" formula, Stephenie Meyer decided to give the fans what they wanted so her books and movies would be blockbusters instead of cult hits. I think Joss's creation is far superior to Meyer's, but I can understand why she might have had more satisfied customers.
It would make sense that if magic is sucked out of the Buffyverse, that Dawn would fade away and not be remembered. But, as documented above, this would cause a hell of a lot of continuity problems the way nobody remembering Connor for nearly a whole season did on Angel (what did the characters think had happened in those Holtz, Sajhan and Jasmine stories if Connor wasn't there? Those stories couldn't have even taken place without Connor). I think they'll still remember Dawn because no one would be in pain if they didn't, and Joss loves to put the characters in pain too much to let an opportunity like that pass. And if it goes like I think it might, with all the magic + Buffy going into another dimension, then Dawn could always pop back up later when Willow somehow gets Buffy and the magic back. Joss loves to go for the big moments of killing off characters, but then he gets to missing them and usually brings them back.
I do expect a reset, though. Since Firefly, Dollhouse, etc. have not managed to achieve the same success Buffy did, I think Joss will eventually do a Buffy re-imagining (like Battlestar Galactica) and start over at the beginning. The movie is already being remade. If that does well, I expect the series will soon follow, with an all-new cast. James Marsters or Alexis Denisof will probably play Giles. I wouldn't be surprised to see Joss wrap up the comics in a couple of years, then move on to that. Look how he can't stay away from the high school, the Hellmouth, the Master, the Bangel. I think he's dying to go back to the high school years again.
You make a good point about Angel and Buffy being let off the hook too many times. Just because the writers and characters let them off the hook doesn't mean the fans will. Many of the excellent writers on this site have understood the need to bring Buffy back from many of her past actions, and have done so in their post-Chosen fics, but Joss apparently doesn't see the need. I think the character has been cheated out of a chance to win back many fans by not owning up to her mistakes.
I think the B/A has set the characters way back. Scott Allie said Angel is Buffy's true love and that her feelings for everyone else -- and he specifically mentioned Riley, Spike and Satsu -- "pale in comparison." But if the official Dark Horse/Joss position is that Buffy has never really loved anyone but Angel and never will, then can her personal life ever be interesting again? After Angel says "my bad" and slinks on off to his own book again, maybe Buffy will start seeing someone else, like Satsu, romantically. But why should anyone even bother to love it or hate it? Hasn't it been established that Buffy won't allow herself to love anyone but Angel? Wouldn't Satsu be with Buffy only as long as Angel allowed it? Couldn't Angel come back and reclaim her at any time? Same thing with Angel. I loved his TV series, and After the Fall. But now it looks like none of that was important. He's just been killing time since Graduation Day, waiting on his next shot at Buffy.
I think you're right about most of the B/A fans moving on. B/A was 1998-99. It ended 11 years ago. Many of them probably quit watching during the next couple of years when they weren't together and Buffy was with Riley. Newer fans who replaced them, like me (I started watching at This Year's Girl/Who Are You), never cared anything about B/A. I know some Bangel fans who switched over to C/A or Spuffy. A lot of people for whom B/A strongly appealed are probably much more into Twilight, which is B/A with a happy ending. While Joss has stuck to his "I give the fans what they need, not what they want" formula, Stephenie Meyer decided to give the fans what they wanted so her books and movies would be blockbusters instead of cult hits. I think Joss's creation is far superior to Meyer's, but I can understand why she might have had more satisfied customers.
It would make sense that if magic is sucked out of the Buffyverse, that Dawn would fade away and not be remembered. But, as documented above, this would cause a hell of a lot of continuity problems the way nobody remembering Connor for nearly a whole season did on Angel (what did the characters think had happened in those Holtz, Sajhan and Jasmine stories if Connor wasn't there? Those stories couldn't have even taken place without Connor). I think they'll still remember Dawn because no one would be in pain if they didn't, and Joss loves to put the characters in pain too much to let an opportunity like that pass. And if it goes like I think it might, with all the magic + Buffy going into another dimension, then Dawn could always pop back up later when Willow somehow gets Buffy and the magic back. Joss loves to go for the big moments of killing off characters, but then he gets to missing them and usually brings them back.
I do expect a reset, though. Since Firefly, Dollhouse, etc. have not managed to achieve the same success Buffy did, I think Joss will eventually do a Buffy re-imagining (like Battlestar Galactica) and start over at the beginning. The movie is already being remade. If that does well, I expect the series will soon follow, with an all-new cast. James Marsters or Alexis Denisof will probably play Giles. I wouldn't be surprised to see Joss wrap up the comics in a couple of years, then move on to that. Look how he can't stay away from the high school, the Hellmouth, the Master, the Bangel. I think he's dying to go back to the high school years again.
Nov 12 2010 07:45 pm #93ladycat713
Guest
I once read this fanfiction on ff.net that I couldn't tell which way it was going because it seemed to Spuffy but a bad feeling started creeping in and I asked the author what direction it was going. They wouldn't tell me . It ended up with both Buffy and Angel saying to thier respective lovers (Spike and Cordelia) the equivalent of I can't be with the one I love so I'm just using you and your love will never be returned. It ended with Willow talking about how romantic it all was. I had to fight the urge to write back telling them how cruel thier ending was. What Scott Allie said reminded me of that.
If Buffy and Angel really are everything to each other than have them get together or at the very least stop leading people on. Don't have it where they use people who love them for sex and give them hope that they have a future together . If they are horny and not together or dating just hire a hooker or use sex toys. That's just cruel. It's not the mark of a hero.
If Buffy and Angel really are everything to each other than have them get together or at the very least stop leading people on. Don't have it where they use people who love them for sex and give them hope that they have a future together . If they are horny and not together or dating just hire a hooker or use sex toys. That's just cruel. It's not the mark of a hero.
Nov 12 2010 07:53 pm #94ladycat713
Guest
I meant the using somebody and leading them on was cruel. Not the sex toys and hooker hiring.
What I don't get, is why the comic peoople are so hung up on the most important thing to Angel is Buffy, and vice versa. It's not. The person those two love the most in the wrold? Conner and Dawn (respectively). Buffy was willing to kill Angel to stop the wrold from going to hell, but she refused to kill Dawn. She killed herself instead (and if I think her blood wouldn't have closed the portal, she still would have said screw you and protected her sister). Angel gave up everything for Conner- he made it so that Conner would be happy, away from all angst that his life had been. He was willing to sell his soul (metaphorically) to the devil, and willingly watched his friends do it too.
If that's not true love, I don't know what is. The fact that the most powerful love in the show is not romanatic makes it all the more poignent.
Also, Bangel might be destiny *gag*, but it's not powerful. If you really think about it, what is the basis for that love? How solid is it? They may have been in love, but that doesn't make it storng. To Buffy he was the smokin' mysterious older man, and to Angel she was a way to redemption. What did they really have besides that? Did they ever really talk? Make each other happy? Really have each other's back? No. Maybe, had they had more time, it would have developed that way, but all we saw was the average everyday teenage angsty relationship with the supernatural thrown in.
But if you look at the next set of 'great loves', Spike and Cordy (I'm leaving out Riley lol), they have such a stronger foundation. Both Cordy and Spike were the in your face, not going to let you get away with this shit and would put you in your place. They were able to break both Angel and Buffy out of broody moments, and were more than willing to call them on any stupid mistakes. They were, in fact, friends (that's kinda off for Spike, because they were only sorta-friends, frenemies most of the time, but it still works). They didn't just fall in love instantly, it built up. The reason that cangel and spuffy are more powerful than bangel? They have a strong foundation, where bangel doesn't. Like Spike says, Angel and Buffy will never be friends. Yet Angel and Cordy, and then Buffy and Spike (allbeit a bumpy road with roadblocks like season six post Tabula Rasa) were friends before they were in love. They have a foundation, while bangel really doesnt.
That is all. lol
If that's not true love, I don't know what is. The fact that the most powerful love in the show is not romanatic makes it all the more poignent.
Also, Bangel might be destiny *gag*, but it's not powerful. If you really think about it, what is the basis for that love? How solid is it? They may have been in love, but that doesn't make it storng. To Buffy he was the smokin' mysterious older man, and to Angel she was a way to redemption. What did they really have besides that? Did they ever really talk? Make each other happy? Really have each other's back? No. Maybe, had they had more time, it would have developed that way, but all we saw was the average everyday teenage angsty relationship with the supernatural thrown in.
But if you look at the next set of 'great loves', Spike and Cordy (I'm leaving out Riley lol), they have such a stronger foundation. Both Cordy and Spike were the in your face, not going to let you get away with this shit and would put you in your place. They were able to break both Angel and Buffy out of broody moments, and were more than willing to call them on any stupid mistakes. They were, in fact, friends (that's kinda off for Spike, because they were only sorta-friends, frenemies most of the time, but it still works). They didn't just fall in love instantly, it built up. The reason that cangel and spuffy are more powerful than bangel? They have a strong foundation, where bangel doesn't. Like Spike says, Angel and Buffy will never be friends. Yet Angel and Cordy, and then Buffy and Spike (allbeit a bumpy road with roadblocks like season six post Tabula Rasa) were friends before they were in love. They have a foundation, while bangel really doesnt.
That is all. lol
~ Niori ~
Nov 13 2010 07:25 pm #96Jeleyne
Guest
The official line seems to be that no matter what happens, it’s no biggie because Buffy and Angel are in looooove and ‘love’ conquers all. The truth is that Buffy and Angel start out with a case of mutual infatuation which never had the opportunity to develop into anything more. I believe any chance that relationship had ended the moment Angel turned into Angelus. Trust, once broken, can be repaired but it's very difficult to shake off the damage from the betrayal. Buffy clearly forgives Angel for that little rampage but, deep down, can she ever really trust him after that? If not, then the question becomes, is true love without trust possible? Joss obviously thinks the answer is yes. Me, I’m not so sure.
Nov 14 2010 03:48 am #97ladycat713
Guest
I thought Cordelia would be perfect from the Angel ep where he temporarily became Angelus because and actress drugged him and she had knocked out and tied up PDQ and then left him tied up after the drugs wore off because she was ticked off at him. The ep had plot holes big enough to drive an 18 wheeler though but it was noteworthy for that alone .
I thought the clearest view of Bangel was in the ep Fredless where Wesley and Cordelia were explaining the whole thing to Fred. Youy'd think after that they would have realized how sill and high school the whole thing was.
As much as I hate Bangel , I'd love to see a fic where Angelus didn't happen and Buffy realized how controlling he was and they both realized that it was just an infatuation and Buffy fell for Spike while realizing that. Bangel never stood up to the day to day stuff, it was Spike who wanted to help her with the bills. Angel would just show and basically do a hit and run to make sure she still was pining for him. He doesn't really want he , he just doesn't want anyone else to play with his toys. He demonstrated this behavior with Drusilla .
I thought the clearest view of Bangel was in the ep Fredless where Wesley and Cordelia were explaining the whole thing to Fred. Youy'd think after that they would have realized how sill and high school the whole thing was.
As much as I hate Bangel , I'd love to see a fic where Angelus didn't happen and Buffy realized how controlling he was and they both realized that it was just an infatuation and Buffy fell for Spike while realizing that. Bangel never stood up to the day to day stuff, it was Spike who wanted to help her with the bills. Angel would just show and basically do a hit and run to make sure she still was pining for him. He doesn't really want he , he just doesn't want anyone else to play with his toys. He demonstrated this behavior with Drusilla .
The thing is, Joss Whedon is a very clever and experienced writer - he knows and sees all the same characters faults that his readers see. I don't think there is anything about this Season 8 that fans know more about than he does. He knows good and well that Buffy, like a real life woman acting out her life in this "stuck mode" will eventually lose the sympathy of a great many fans. I don't say all, because I think there are many fans who would stick with her no matter what. The "willing victim" does lose the sympathy of other people if the behavior just goes on and on and on. Family support remains, because that what most families do - but readers are not friends and family and I think that many would simply decide that they have had enough of Buffy and her mad carousel ride with Angel/Angelus.
Season 8 is a HUGE departure from anything else that has ever happened in the series - this is the Real Apocalypse, not just a pretend one, or a personal one like with Glory. The object of her love, barring some totally lame ass plot twist, has become directly linked to Mass Murders and the near annihilation of the planet - and unless Buffy has ascended into the role of God/The Son/Grace, another round of "It's not Angel" or as she has already express "the universe set us up." Any resolution that keeps Buffy connected to Angel/Angelus will, I believe put her in the role of "willing victim" that will lose the sympathy of readers.
Joss Whedon knows the peril for his heroine, he now also has the real life experience of seeing Buffy from the perspective of a father. The "unconditional love" is no longer an abstract concept and metaphor, his parenthood, IMVHO, ought to bring a more complex view to his Buffy-Angel relationship. He now has a child and he would now have to consider his own feelings if his teenage child would become involved with an older man and experienced man of the world. Would he really have the same perspective on the whole "nobody messes with my boy friend" as he sends his teenage heroine off to bring back Faith so that she can offer Faith's life in exchange for Angel's? His perspective on Buffy and her love must have changed by now.
I think more than anything else, what I am waiting to see is how he is going to develop Buffy - what kind of statement will he finally make about her, will she grow, as Giles tells her, into someone extraordinary and strong or will she become the victim of her love. Joss Whedon and Scott Allie both understand what the character of Angel/Twangel has done, what he is responsible for. Depending on how much they demand from Angel/Angelus for his choices, Season 9 will either bring in those readers like myself, who demand that there be some severe consequences for his choices or lose them.
But, Joss Whedon knows all this, and surely knows that they will expect more than "it wasn't Angel driving the car" but some miserable but colossal power. Season 8 has been to extreme and focused on Buffy's nightmare emotional trauma & baggage from Bangel for it not to be dramatically changed.
I'm going with the Spike Cork Bottle description - and hope that Buffy - Angel will finally implode - New Life from Death and Destruction and Willow's description of them as yin-yang, that makes a perfect fit with where they are now, life & death.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 15 2010 01:06 am #99Spikez_tart
Spike/Buffy - okay I had a ray of irrational hope when Buffy had her little flutter about kissing and having sex with Spike (even if it was only in her brain, and maybe especially because it was), but more when they were arguing and Spike was telling her she was a moron for having sex with Angel, etc. Compare that to the "instant" get together she has with Angel. That is not the romance way. The difficult love relationship is the true relationship. Also, the fact that they are wearing similar colored clothes is interesting. Yes, the rational me knows that JW will never let it happen. He'll keep the three of them balancing on the fence, one way or another as long as there is Buffy. Really, why give up a perpetual plot device like that?
Xander/Dawn and Buffy is Dawn - This is just Sooooo sick. Since an upcoming cover shows Xander carrying an unconscious or dead Dawn, there is hope. Not for Xander growing up and getting over his sick obsession with Buffy, of course.
The thing is, Joss Whedon is a very clever and experienced writer - Yes, But. When he wrote Buffy, he totally cadged off Homer and Virgil for all his plot devices. I don't fault him for that - steal from the best! Now that those sources have seemingly dried up for him, he seems to be flailing and not just in the Buffy comics. He also seems to be stuck in these stupid and unrealistic girl power stories.
Angel perspective of a mature man - one would think that all the things that have happened to Angel since he and Buffy parted ways would have changed him, made him mature, and that those emotions would be reflected in his relationship with Buffy, but all those things seem to have been forgotten. Instead, he jumps her bones like nothing ever happened. Ever. Also forgotten, he's a vampire and can't go out in the sunlight without risking death, he has a curse that prevents him from experiencing even one moment of happiness (which presumably banging Buffy into a new universe would accomplish), that he was in love with Cordelia, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention what grown man would put on that silly suit and run around in public?
Do vampires fly? No, they drive. I really hate the flying superheros. It was bad enough when Willow was doing it. Having Buffy and Angel fly too, is nauseating. It also gives the hero too much of an advantage when fighting bad guys.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I wonder how many of the fans who visit forums or comment on Season 8 feel like blockheads having to type in Universe Kitty or the universe created by Buffy and Angel - It's such a nonsensical premise. This is, to me, is such a strange idea and - and even more strange is all this PR-Marketing Line about Buffy loving Angel beyond all else in her life - it just dumb. Buffy and I finally have something in common, "I can't process" either.
What all this about "destroying The Seed Force?" isn't the world's survival depended on it's staying in place. Now we the potential situation where Xander is supposedly going to try and destroy it, or Giles, or General Voll - I wouldn't trust that general at all. Between The General and Whistler's TPTB Plan, I can't make out who is worse. That entire sequence with Whistler , to me, reads like The Powers Of Whatever You Want" are setting up Angel/Angelus big time - if that isn't the symbol of mouth being pulled in by the flame I wish someone would friggin explain what the scene is all about. Then, to make me even more confused, Jeanty has shown Whistler with the Hindu hand symbol of "don't be afraid" which is also similar to the hand position shown with the Jesus Christ. Now we have Buffy taking on the role of "the willing victim" on a Universal Scale. Buffy is now Eve/The General Mother, taking all the blame, the universal vengeance, for the sins of Adam/Angel?
Buffy has placed all this on her, she calls this "her war now" - Are we to see her as The Savior/The Creator Mother/Sacrifice now? I will not be at all surprise if it is Buffy who once again has to face her ultimate death or transport into some other dimension. If this is her war to take full responsibility for, Buffy becoming Dawn/The Key and transporting herself and all the other world demons to this new world could be a possible resolution. Of course with only two issues left, the series finale pretty much has to be resolved with at least the three primary characters in the series, which are Xander, Buffy and Willow. I can't even begin to imagine how Joss Whedon is going to make the series finale work.
Is this Joss Whedon's commentary on the current political world chaos - the Whistler-Angel/Angelus, to me, sure feels like politics and religion.
What all this about "destroying The Seed Force?" isn't the world's survival depended on it's staying in place. Now we the potential situation where Xander is supposedly going to try and destroy it, or Giles, or General Voll - I wouldn't trust that general at all. Between The General and Whistler's TPTB Plan, I can't make out who is worse. That entire sequence with Whistler , to me, reads like The Powers Of Whatever You Want" are setting up Angel/Angelus big time - if that isn't the symbol of mouth being pulled in by the flame I wish someone would friggin explain what the scene is all about. Then, to make me even more confused, Jeanty has shown Whistler with the Hindu hand symbol of "don't be afraid" which is also similar to the hand position shown with the Jesus Christ. Now we have Buffy taking on the role of "the willing victim" on a Universal Scale. Buffy is now Eve/The General Mother, taking all the blame, the universal vengeance, for the sins of Adam/Angel?
Buffy has placed all this on her, she calls this "her war now" - Are we to see her as The Savior/The Creator Mother/Sacrifice now? I will not be at all surprise if it is Buffy who once again has to face her ultimate death or transport into some other dimension. If this is her war to take full responsibility for, Buffy becoming Dawn/The Key and transporting herself and all the other world demons to this new world could be a possible resolution. Of course with only two issues left, the series finale pretty much has to be resolved with at least the three primary characters in the series, which are Xander, Buffy and Willow. I can't even begin to imagine how Joss Whedon is going to make the series finale work.
Is this Joss Whedon's commentary on the current political world chaos - the Whistler-Angel/Angelus, to me, sure feels like politics and religion.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 15 2010 10:44 pm #101Nick Scarlett
Guest
You'd think it would be obvious to Joss that Buffy is in danger of losing the sympathy of even more fans, especially given the outcry from all except the Bangels when she started doing it with Twangel. He's been pretty tone deaf or indifferent to this in the past, though. One of Buffy's problems is that in unrequited love stories, most people sympathize with the the unloved, rather than the rejector. Joss has always put Spike and Xander fans in the position of being rejected by Buffy along with their characters. And although Spike made a lot of improvements to himself after Season 6, Buffy never did, or thought she needed to. Still other fans (Core 4 Scooby fans) fell out with Buffy over Empty Places. The fact that Buffy was proven right and Giles, Willow, Xander, Faith, Dawn, etc. were proven wrong probably made matters worse, rather than better.
I think you're right that Joss means this version of Bangel as a parody (I think of Edward & Bella), and I hope you're right that he is aware how badly Buffy could come off in this if she just makes excuses for Angel and continues the romance. I don't think she will do this, but I think there will be more "We can't be together, but we'll love each other from our separate books" garbage.
Given that Buffy was shown to fantasize about Spike, and he was kept completely unaware of it, I wonder if there might be some payoff to that down the road. I think it would be interesting if after this, she decided she wanted Spike, but he rejected her and she continued to pursue him, as he did her for years. It would be interesting to see if fans would then begin to sympathize with her more. I know I have softened up to her quite a bit in fanfics where this has happened (Devil Piglet's "Prayers to Broken Stone," Herself's "A Terrible Thing," and the "Soul Survivor" virtual series, to name a few off-hand).
I've been reading and participating in a discussion on the merits of both Bangel and Spuffy - and one of the participants brought up the, I guess irrefutable line about the level of Love Buffy has felt for all the series - presumably this includes Joyce and Dawn as well.
BUFFY: I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with? I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to.
In view of what has be the arc of Buffy and Angel/Twangel relationship - do you think that it is pertinent to her actions in Season 8 as an expression of her Angel Love or more an expression of her inability to relate their relationship in a more mature perspective?
Is the emphatic declaration of her level of love, that above all others and for all her life, now been validated with Season 8?
BUFFY: I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with? I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to.
In view of what has be the arc of Buffy and Angel/Twangel relationship - do you think that it is pertinent to her actions in Season 8 as an expression of her Angel Love or more an expression of her inability to relate their relationship in a more mature perspective?
Is the emphatic declaration of her level of love, that above all others and for all her life, now been validated with Season 8?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 16 2010 03:39 am #103ladycat713
Guest
Empty Places reminded me of Seeing Red in a way. Seeing Red was a retroactive way of them saying see it was alright for her to treat Spike that way if he could do this
Empty Places was a way to make you feel sorry for Buffy so that you weren't supposed to feel ticked off when she fawned all over Angel and essentially sent him away to safety while telling him she saw a future with him.
Empty Places was a way to make you feel sorry for Buffy so that you weren't supposed to feel ticked off when she fawned all over Angel and essentially sent him away to safety while telling him she saw a future with him.
Boy, I sure misinterpreted that entire Bangel reunion in the ending of the series - I really felt that it was thrown in as a tribute to the earlier years of the series, I completely did not realize that this was a serious statement about the fundamentals of the series. Right now I am feeling pretty bitter about everything, it's like all those years that I invested in watching the series and being a passionate and devoted fan was for nothing. Well not nothing, because no matter what Joss Whedon and Dark Horse do post TV Era, like that wonderful song "They Can't Take That Away" they can never eradicate what was created with the superb journey of transformation of Spike and Spuffy.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
That line about Angel being the thing Buffy loves most (or whatever it is) is bull. Argue all you want, but the pure and simple fact is that Buffy was willing and did kill Angel to save the world. Buffy refused to kill Dawn to save the world, and gave her own life instead to spare her sister. Willing to kill or willing to die to save? Willing to die for someone is the most that you can possibly love someone. The fact that it's not romantic, but family love, makes it all the more powerful.
~ Niori ~
Nov 16 2010 08:04 pm #106Nick Scarlett
Guest
Do you think that it is pertinent to her actions in Season 8 as an expression of her Angel Love or more an expression of her inability to relate their relationship in a more mature perspective? Yes. I think she's validating Joss and Scott Allie's earlier remarks about how B/A transcends all and Angel is Buffy's true love, but I think she is also demonstrating that it is an ideal of Angel she is so in love with that exists only in her imagination. I believe Cordelia knew the real Angel and loved him, but Buffy has never really known him, so she conveniently glosses over things that she can't accept. In that way, she is still unable to bring a mature perspective to their relationship.
I hate that "I Ioved him more than I will ever love anything" line, which I hoped was just Drew Goddard's opinion, but I think it has mostly been confirmed, although I might have to agree with Niori that Buffy's actions show that she really loves Dawn the most.
ladycat, I agree with you on Empty Places and Seeing Red. Joss and Marti always found it easier to tear down other characters to make Buffy look good in comparison than to bring her back from her mistakes or even to acknowledge them. EP & SR are both glaring examples of this.
I hate that "I Ioved him more than I will ever love anything" line, which I hoped was just Drew Goddard's opinion, but I think it has mostly been confirmed, although I might have to agree with Niori that Buffy's actions show that she really loves Dawn the most.
ladycat, I agree with you on Empty Places and Seeing Red. Joss and Marti always found it easier to tear down other characters to make Buffy look good in comparison than to bring her back from her mistakes or even to acknowledge them. EP & SR are both glaring examples of this.
Nov 16 2010 09:50 pm #107ladycat713
Guest
I think that idealized view thing goes both ways. Angel doesn't really know Buffy at all. Thiers was a hit and run romance . All they really had together was short moments in which the facade image they had of eachother didn't have time to slip.
Buffy was held up to be as some sort of reward for Angel and Angel was the mysterious older man. They don't really know each other more than that. What do they know about each other's likes and dislikes ? Nothing at all.
They really have nothing together. Neither made any effort to get his soul anchored . If I had a cursed boyfriend who went all damage bound anytime he got laid, I would tear into him for walking away and tell him that if he leaves it better be to seek out a cure for his problem. I'd be hitting the books myself while he was gone.
I have this theory that Angel doesn't really want his soul anchored . He likes keeping people on edge around him . Plus by getting his soul anchored he'd have to make a conscious choice to really do good for the sake of no reward. Angel's never done that. He 's had Buffy and then the Shanshu dangled before him as the carrot to do good.
Spike on the other hand cotinued to do good in Buffy's name because he was keeping his word to look after Dawn even after Buffy was dead .
Angel OTOH just went to a monestary for a while and didn't seem particulary upset. It's like he went because she was supposed to be upset not because he actually was.
Buffy was held up to be as some sort of reward for Angel and Angel was the mysterious older man. They don't really know each other more than that. What do they know about each other's likes and dislikes ? Nothing at all.
They really have nothing together. Neither made any effort to get his soul anchored . If I had a cursed boyfriend who went all damage bound anytime he got laid, I would tear into him for walking away and tell him that if he leaves it better be to seek out a cure for his problem. I'd be hitting the books myself while he was gone.
I have this theory that Angel doesn't really want his soul anchored . He likes keeping people on edge around him . Plus by getting his soul anchored he'd have to make a conscious choice to really do good for the sake of no reward. Angel's never done that. He 's had Buffy and then the Shanshu dangled before him as the carrot to do good.
Spike on the other hand cotinued to do good in Buffy's name because he was keeping his word to look after Dawn even after Buffy was dead .
Angel OTOH just went to a monestary for a while and didn't seem particulary upset. It's like he went because she was supposed to be upset not because he actually was.
I like Dawn right now, "missing the major plot points" - why the destruction of the world arc? It his, as I have read, the means to reset The Buffyverse - get rid of all the Sunnydale Era so that a new universe can be created for the characters to live in. Just throw out all the old baggage, while bringing in a new emotional connection with the Xander and Dawn relationship plus bringing in all the Old Bangel Agnst to stir-up the fanbase. The Universe Creation is sheer nonsense IMO, it's only logical connection that I can see works as a metaphor for the destruction of old baggage. What good could possibly come to the franchise with the huge revisit of the old story between Buffy and Angel.
Obviously Dark Horse has committed to pushing the Bangel relationship - one has only to see their merchasing campaign for the series .
Obviously Dark Horse has committed to pushing the Bangel relationship - one has only to see their merchasing campaign for the series .
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 17 2010 03:14 am #109Spikez_tart
I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. Not to nit pick, well a little, Buffy says "I loved" past tense, it's history and the rest is like the typical ranting of a teenage girl who thinks she'll love her boyfriend with the motorcycle and the black leather jacket 4 EVA. In fact, Buffy has moved on and despite her misgivings about Spike, she does accept him enough to hang around and sleep with him. Equally, he is no longer just the guy in the black leather jacket. He's in the half way house to responsible adult love, just as she is.
Also, in context, Buffy is trying to one up Xander who is trying to convince her that Anya, who has just slaughtered about 20 guys for hurting a girl's feelings, should not get her head chopped off. Buffy is feeling abused by Xander because it is his fault that she's been put in the position AGAIN of having to kill someone she knows and is at least marginally friendly with. She has to make the tough decision and do the dirty work, while Xander criticizes and whines. The conversation then turns to Spike, who Xander reminds Buffy has frequently behaved badly and yet always gets a pass because she is "boning him." The truth is that Spike does frequently get a pass from Buffy. (Angel sure didn't. He got a sword in the gut and a one way trip to hell.) And, it's not because Buffy is the Queen of Forgiveness. She may forgive others for their faults and betrayals eventually, but Spike usually gets a pass immediately without any need of time passing and hurt feelings subsiding. Even after the attempted rape, she takes Dawn over to his crypt and is plainly disappointed that he's left town without telling her. The connection between Spike and Buffy is very real and struggling its way to maturity, no matter what baloney she says about Angel. You could say the same thing about Angel's relationship with Cordelia.
And, Joss is just mean enough to have Spike dump Buffy this time.
Also, in context, Buffy is trying to one up Xander who is trying to convince her that Anya, who has just slaughtered about 20 guys for hurting a girl's feelings, should not get her head chopped off. Buffy is feeling abused by Xander because it is his fault that she's been put in the position AGAIN of having to kill someone she knows and is at least marginally friendly with. She has to make the tough decision and do the dirty work, while Xander criticizes and whines. The conversation then turns to Spike, who Xander reminds Buffy has frequently behaved badly and yet always gets a pass because she is "boning him." The truth is that Spike does frequently get a pass from Buffy. (Angel sure didn't. He got a sword in the gut and a one way trip to hell.) And, it's not because Buffy is the Queen of Forgiveness. She may forgive others for their faults and betrayals eventually, but Spike usually gets a pass immediately without any need of time passing and hurt feelings subsiding. Even after the attempted rape, she takes Dawn over to his crypt and is plainly disappointed that he's left town without telling her. The connection between Spike and Buffy is very real and struggling its way to maturity, no matter what baloney she says about Angel. You could say the same thing about Angel's relationship with Cordelia.
And, Joss is just mean enough to have Spike dump Buffy this time.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I'm just waiting for the "shoe to drop" on the Spike-Buffy treatment in Season 8.
I find it so strange how so many of the very dark aspects of Buffy-Angel Love are simply ignored - this part of the script is always brought up as THE STATEMENT from canon that validates Bangel. What is ignored is the dreadful implications of this statement for the character. Buffy is still extremely young, she would be closing up her whole life and potential to experience a new deep and mature love for a person with whom she can never experience the full human love experience. When the horrendous statement of her emotional trauma from this Wondrous, Pure and Forever Love as is shown in her "morning after sex" with Spike, that she is doing to him exactly what Angel/Angelus did to her, all the trauma and consequences of the Angel/Angelus "morning after" is just ignored. What they heck is that scene about if not an exploration of "trauma" from her past imposing itself on the present. Excuse me, but "one vampire got me hot" (paraphrase) when she is the one who initiated their sexual life.
Good points you make about the circumstances of the scene. It was a great deal of anger and it also emphasis the total change of attitude of Xander when the same horror was part of his life. Anya's vengeance was one of the most gruesome death scenes in all the series.
I find it so strange how so many of the very dark aspects of Buffy-Angel Love are simply ignored - this part of the script is always brought up as THE STATEMENT from canon that validates Bangel. What is ignored is the dreadful implications of this statement for the character. Buffy is still extremely young, she would be closing up her whole life and potential to experience a new deep and mature love for a person with whom she can never experience the full human love experience. When the horrendous statement of her emotional trauma from this Wondrous, Pure and Forever Love as is shown in her "morning after sex" with Spike, that she is doing to him exactly what Angel/Angelus did to her, all the trauma and consequences of the Angel/Angelus "morning after" is just ignored. What they heck is that scene about if not an exploration of "trauma" from her past imposing itself on the present. Excuse me, but "one vampire got me hot" (paraphrase) when she is the one who initiated their sexual life.
Good points you make about the circumstances of the scene. It was a great deal of anger and it also emphasis the total change of attitude of Xander when the same horror was part of his life. Anya's vengeance was one of the most gruesome death scenes in all the series.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 17 2010 06:32 pm #111ladycat713
Guest
That's EXACTLY what the Spike Buffy morning after was about . Her past trauma with Angel. Just think of how much healthier mentally Buffy would be if he had apologized and told her that none of it was her fault and taken the blame on himself. Even if he kept the bullshit excuse about it not being his fault because he lost his soul he could still apologize because he'd had the curse for years and never bothered to find out the circumstances .
And if they excuse Buffy's behavior with Satsu as some side effect , than she is still owed and apology by Buffy, because she needs one. She was the innocent that Buffy once was and by using her love and showing no remorse Buffy has passed her trauma by Angel on once again.
Apologizing even if they keep up the dumb reason for the behavior is something the Scoobies need to learn to do because the people they hurt need to hear it.
And if they excuse Buffy's behavior with Satsu as some side effect , than she is still owed and apology by Buffy, because she needs one. She was the innocent that Buffy once was and by using her love and showing no remorse Buffy has passed her trauma by Angel on once again.
Apologizing even if they keep up the dumb reason for the behavior is something the Scoobies need to learn to do because the people they hurt need to hear it.
Nov 17 2010 08:00 pm #112Jeleyne
Guest
It's not only that the context of "The Statement" gets ignored, but there are a lot of missing words in it. The full meaning is, or should be: "I loved him more at that point in my life and in that particular moment than I will ever love anything in that innocent whole-hearted and blissfully ignorant kind of way in this life." We get the shorthand version of it and unfortunately never hear the long version.
Excellent point about Buffy passing her own trauma on to others in subsequent mornings after. An endless cycle of emotional violence.
Excellent point about Buffy passing her own trauma on to others in subsequent mornings after. An endless cycle of emotional violence.
Nov 17 2010 10:39 pm #113Nick Scarlett
Guest
"And Joss is just mean enough to have Spike dump Buffy this time."
I'd pay $50 for that issue.
I'd pay $50 for that issue.
I'll be sure to buy extra copies of the Issue 39 and 40 -
Since I had to make The Spike Fans Set Of Glasses - guess I now have to do the $50.00 "bye...have a good life" Issue.
You can see my version of Spike Season 8 glasses here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/5183527337/ (remember to open "actions" for various size views)
Since I had to make The Spike Fans Set Of Glasses - guess I now have to do the $50.00 "bye...have a good life" Issue.
You can see my version of Spike Season 8 glasses here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/5183527337/ (remember to open "actions" for various size views)
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
The more one reevaluates the Angel-Angelus soul theme - the more it really falls apart. Angel is shown that he spent a great deal of time not being in broken down alley rat eating vampire. Isn't the more logical treatment with the character as shown in the series that he would have investigated the conditions of being en-souled? Magic is as integral part of the series, and if Angel having his soul is of such high importance to him, it is only logical that he would have investigated spells dealing with souls. The series established that there are 'soul eaters" or creatures that can steal souls - it is logical to assume that the reverse type of spells are also available.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 18 2010 02:35 am #116ladycat713
Guest
It's not like he didn't have the time to check things out. Heck after Wesley joined his team he could have asked him to investigate a way to anchor his soul but there's no indication he ever did. He did ask him to investigate the Shanshu but that was seeking out a reward not stopping a potential problem.
Speaking of Wesley, I thought the way he treated him for kidnapping Connor was incredibly hypocritical. Wesley at least menat well . Plus it's interesting that someone in such dire need of forgiveness is unwilling to do any forgiving himself. He was also hypocritical about Spike having a soul , saying I believe that Spike was still evil with a soul . He seemed to think he should get off scot free though.
And with Wesley kidnapping Connor, I thought somebody should have said to Angel that Wesley's only mistake was in thinking Angel was capable of more depth than he actually was. That Angel would get happy from popping a young girls cherry (specifically the one girl that he wasn't ever suppossed to touch since she was "heaven's chosen one" (I've seen this term don't know if it's canon) which made her in a way like Dru the innocent postelant but not from his son saying Dada for the first time . Any happiness from Connor's birth could have been tempered by Darla's death and them being hunted by Holtz but Connor was in danger from Angel long term if he has any depth. If he could only have perfect happiness by corrupting someone who was suppossed to belong to Heaven than the person themselves doesn't matter just that he despoiled them.
And another example of someone passing on pain , this time pain that they witnessed but didn't experience , is Dawn's cheating. I'm pretty sure it was canon that Hank Summers cheated on Joyce , Dru cheated on Spike, Xander on Cordelia and Willow on Oz (and now on Kennedy with a snake lady but I can't remember if that predates Dawn's cheating) . All of this would have been in Dawn's memories and she would have seen the pain it caused the cheated on and yet she did it to someone herself.
One thing I would loved to have seen is Buffy actually seeing full out what kind of person Angel was as a human. he seems to have been Hellbound long before he lost his soul. It would bring up the question of whether or not the Gypsies cursed him with his own soul or they just added a heaping helping of guilt to his soul to get him to feel bad and it eventually lost power in comparison to his ego trip.
Speaking of Wesley, I thought the way he treated him for kidnapping Connor was incredibly hypocritical. Wesley at least menat well . Plus it's interesting that someone in such dire need of forgiveness is unwilling to do any forgiving himself. He was also hypocritical about Spike having a soul , saying I believe that Spike was still evil with a soul . He seemed to think he should get off scot free though.
And with Wesley kidnapping Connor, I thought somebody should have said to Angel that Wesley's only mistake was in thinking Angel was capable of more depth than he actually was. That Angel would get happy from popping a young girls cherry (specifically the one girl that he wasn't ever suppossed to touch since she was "heaven's chosen one" (I've seen this term don't know if it's canon) which made her in a way like Dru the innocent postelant but not from his son saying Dada for the first time . Any happiness from Connor's birth could have been tempered by Darla's death and them being hunted by Holtz but Connor was in danger from Angel long term if he has any depth. If he could only have perfect happiness by corrupting someone who was suppossed to belong to Heaven than the person themselves doesn't matter just that he despoiled them.
And another example of someone passing on pain , this time pain that they witnessed but didn't experience , is Dawn's cheating. I'm pretty sure it was canon that Hank Summers cheated on Joyce , Dru cheated on Spike, Xander on Cordelia and Willow on Oz (and now on Kennedy with a snake lady but I can't remember if that predates Dawn's cheating) . All of this would have been in Dawn's memories and she would have seen the pain it caused the cheated on and yet she did it to someone herself.
One thing I would loved to have seen is Buffy actually seeing full out what kind of person Angel was as a human. he seems to have been Hellbound long before he lost his soul. It would bring up the question of whether or not the Gypsies cursed him with his own soul or they just added a heaping helping of guilt to his soul to get him to feel bad and it eventually lost power in comparison to his ego trip.
I am really looking forward to see how Joss Whedon will end this series - For Giles to state that Angel/Angelus is the best of his kind - this is the vampire/man that killed Jenny Calendar and all those innocent victims in Sunnydale - the same vampire/man who tortured him and tortured Buffy and her friends - great role model of "the best."
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 18 2010 03:30 am #118ladycat713
Guest
Thinking about the cheating made me think that Dawn is probably the first cheater to have any consequences at all from her cheating. Joyce was left with the responsibility of raising the children while Hank didn't bother to show up at all , Dru repeatedly cheated over 100 years right in front of Spike and she basically kicked him out (he just refused to take her back the last time and that might have been because of her wish to reform the family which included Angel) , Willow wasn't left for her cheating (I don't know if Kennedy knows and while Tara left her it was for another reason and she came back way too soon) , Xander eventually got Anya out of his cheating while Cordelia ended up in the hospital. Dawn's the only one who didn't get off free or get rewarded. Heck Angel cheated on Buffy with Dru and he still got Buffy back easily with no apology (I forgot to add Angel in the list of cheaters and Buffy as the cheated on above) .
One thing I wonder though, did anyone get the sense that Dawn truly understood the betrayal of trust and the pain she caused or did she seem more sorry that she was caught and that she acted like a big ho (to quote Dawn) ?
If it was the latter in addition to the fact that Dawn cheated at all , then Dawn has learned a truly awful ethical system from the Scoobies.
Did Dawn apologize to kenny because she knew he'd remove the curse (or it would break the curse I can't remember if it was automatic) or because she thought she was supposed to apologize for appearances sake (since she had no handy dandy excuse like soulessness) rather than from true empathy for the pain caused or remorse?
One thing I wonder though, did anyone get the sense that Dawn truly understood the betrayal of trust and the pain she caused or did she seem more sorry that she was caught and that she acted like a big ho (to quote Dawn) ?
If it was the latter in addition to the fact that Dawn cheated at all , then Dawn has learned a truly awful ethical system from the Scoobies.
Did Dawn apologize to kenny because she knew he'd remove the curse (or it would break the curse I can't remember if it was automatic) or because she thought she was supposed to apologize for appearances sake (since she had no handy dandy excuse like soulessness) rather than from true empathy for the pain caused or remorse?
Thinking about the cheating made me think that Dawn is probably the first cheater to have any consequences at all from her cheating.
I'll say Xander is the first. Cordelia didn't forgive him and started spreading his home life secrets to his friends and others as well as insulting him whenever she could. So he paid for cheating on her. And I don't approve of Kenny's abuse at all. Cursing people for cheating is wrong. They cheated, then dump them and never speak to them again. Vengeance is never the answer. Anya was a murderer for a reason. It wasn't right when Anya did it and it's not right when Kenny did it. I'm actually upset that Dawn apologized to Kenny when he should be the one apologizing for turning her into a freak for a whole year, making her miss classes and probably drop out of college, and just plain making her life a living hell. What she did doesn't deserve all that, and the fact that Kenny knew that Dawn was suffering for months and did nothing about it makes him a creep.
I'll say Xander is the first. Cordelia didn't forgive him and started spreading his home life secrets to his friends and others as well as insulting him whenever she could. So he paid for cheating on her. And I don't approve of Kenny's abuse at all. Cursing people for cheating is wrong. They cheated, then dump them and never speak to them again. Vengeance is never the answer. Anya was a murderer for a reason. It wasn't right when Anya did it and it's not right when Kenny did it. I'm actually upset that Dawn apologized to Kenny when he should be the one apologizing for turning her into a freak for a whole year, making her miss classes and probably drop out of college, and just plain making her life a living hell. What she did doesn't deserve all that, and the fact that Kenny knew that Dawn was suffering for months and did nothing about it makes him a creep.
Nov 22 2010 05:06 am #120ladycat713
Guest
I thik any suffering Xander did was negated by the fact that he got Anya because of Cordelia's wish for vengeance made Anya loose her power center and she ended up with Xander because of it. He gained more than he ever lost.
If the curse was meant to be negated by an apology than it's possible Dawn was probably only suppossed to be cursed for a short time until she apologized. Kenny had no way to know that Dawn had been taught by example to not apologize . That cheaters might have a short term inconvenience but either get off scot free or are rewarded in the long run.
And given that there are people like Anya in the Buffyverse, who's to say he couldn't have made a wish for vengeance that would have turned out much worse? While Dawn was inconvenienced , she had a slayer for a sister and a all powerful witch for friend and was in a castle full of slayers. She should've been safe. Maybe it was jerky but maybe it was the way his people had been taught to punish cheaters. Call it a crime of passion but he didn't kill her and it could have ended that way. And one thing you learn from watching true crime shows is that there are many ways for much worse. Not to mention my mother told my father that she knew he was cheating and he told her no , she responded ok but if I catch you I'll castrate you with a rusty butcher knife (and she was dead serious) . He sneaked out of the house a few days later and left . He was cheating.
I doubt his college experience fared much better.,He certainly couldn't stay in the same room he was living in. He's probably be humilated and people can be cruel so they'd pile that on. He probably dropped out himself. If his family was poor that may have been his only shot at college. I doubt his sister robs banks for money so he might have had limited resources unlike Dawn to go back to school.His view on women would cretainly be soured , possibly for life. The next woman he went with he might not trust to stay faithful even if she is.
Quite frankly I would preferred (if they had to go down the Dawn cheating route) that she have real life consequences. Like having guys at college only asking her out in order to get laid and have her rep ruined.
The reason they had Dawn grow into a giant was to get her back to the Castle. Which could have been done without turning Dawn into a cheater. They, like the ep writers seem to have mainly forgottent that Dawn was a key (except for the possible magic beings disappearing plot point upcoming) and that hasn't been fully explored. It would have been much better for the character to have her change because she lost her virginity and the minor blood loss combined with star alignment or something caused her to change. That would have made sense , it would have brought up a dropped plot point, it would've not made Dawn into just another cheater . Yet we got yet another plot point that sucked. The only good thing you can say about her plotline is that she doesn't have Buffy's plotline. I miss the girl we saw Dawn had the potential to be.
I fully expect Dawn to be included in the magic excuse club since they are handing out reasons to absolve Buffy and Angel from blame. They'll probably say that Buffy's excuse bled into dawn because Dawn was made from Buffy (another plot point that could be explored since Dawn was clearly not made from just Buffy) .
Whatever way you paint it , the Buffyverse has way too many cheaters for such a relatively small population. There's something very wrong about that.
If the curse was meant to be negated by an apology than it's possible Dawn was probably only suppossed to be cursed for a short time until she apologized. Kenny had no way to know that Dawn had been taught by example to not apologize . That cheaters might have a short term inconvenience but either get off scot free or are rewarded in the long run.
And given that there are people like Anya in the Buffyverse, who's to say he couldn't have made a wish for vengeance that would have turned out much worse? While Dawn was inconvenienced , she had a slayer for a sister and a all powerful witch for friend and was in a castle full of slayers. She should've been safe. Maybe it was jerky but maybe it was the way his people had been taught to punish cheaters. Call it a crime of passion but he didn't kill her and it could have ended that way. And one thing you learn from watching true crime shows is that there are many ways for much worse. Not to mention my mother told my father that she knew he was cheating and he told her no , she responded ok but if I catch you I'll castrate you with a rusty butcher knife (and she was dead serious) . He sneaked out of the house a few days later and left . He was cheating.
I doubt his college experience fared much better.,He certainly couldn't stay in the same room he was living in. He's probably be humilated and people can be cruel so they'd pile that on. He probably dropped out himself. If his family was poor that may have been his only shot at college. I doubt his sister robs banks for money so he might have had limited resources unlike Dawn to go back to school.His view on women would cretainly be soured , possibly for life. The next woman he went with he might not trust to stay faithful even if she is.
Quite frankly I would preferred (if they had to go down the Dawn cheating route) that she have real life consequences. Like having guys at college only asking her out in order to get laid and have her rep ruined.
The reason they had Dawn grow into a giant was to get her back to the Castle. Which could have been done without turning Dawn into a cheater. They, like the ep writers seem to have mainly forgottent that Dawn was a key (except for the possible magic beings disappearing plot point upcoming) and that hasn't been fully explored. It would have been much better for the character to have her change because she lost her virginity and the minor blood loss combined with star alignment or something caused her to change. That would have made sense , it would have brought up a dropped plot point, it would've not made Dawn into just another cheater . Yet we got yet another plot point that sucked. The only good thing you can say about her plotline is that she doesn't have Buffy's plotline. I miss the girl we saw Dawn had the potential to be.
I fully expect Dawn to be included in the magic excuse club since they are handing out reasons to absolve Buffy and Angel from blame. They'll probably say that Buffy's excuse bled into dawn because Dawn was made from Buffy (another plot point that could be explored since Dawn was clearly not made from just Buffy) .
Whatever way you paint it , the Buffyverse has way too many cheaters for such a relatively small population. There's something very wrong about that.
Nov 22 2010 05:19 am #121ladycat713
Guest
And another real life example of what can happen if one cheats that so much worse than being cursed into shapeshifting. A cousin of some degree found his wife in thier bed with another man . The sir Galahad she was sleeping with jumped out the window. My cousin cut her up pretty badly and dumped her at the hospital (she survived) . His mother said thier apartment looked like someone had slaughtered a pig in there. When you consider that there are other examples like this , a curse seems pretty harmless. He reacted strongly but not as strongly as he could have had. And in the Buffyverse the curse itself could have been so much worse.
I've never bought into the it just happened thing either. At some point someone had to think about protection at least. There's gotta be a whoa moment to think about consequences. Maybe the lack of punishement for cheaters in her circle removed Dawn's whoa moment. I just consider this another example of the mass character assassinations of season 8.
I've never bought into the it just happened thing either. At some point someone had to think about protection at least. There's gotta be a whoa moment to think about consequences. Maybe the lack of punishement for cheaters in her circle removed Dawn's whoa moment. I just consider this another example of the mass character assassinations of season 8.
Nov 22 2010 05:58 am #122CM
Guest
Um, from canon only, we don't know that Hank cheated - we only know that there was a divorce and after the divorce, he's hooked up with his secretary. It's a fandom assumption that he cheated.
It's also a fandom assumption that Dru cheated on Spike between the time Angelus left and when she thought Spike betrayed Angelus by siding with the Slayer. Nothing on the show is shown or clearly mentioned to have happened in the years between Angel's curse and them arriving in Sunnydale in 1997. As far as canon goes, Dru was with Spike totally until she got her Daddy back, the only being that trumped Spike, until Spike was no longer worthy by siding with the Slayer.
And it's not like Xander orchestrated Anya losing her power center, etc. He's not even really interested in her to begin with, but Anya's persistent. I wouldn't call them eventually ending up a couple a reward for cheating at all.......they just happen to stay living in the same town.
It's also a fandom assumption that Dru cheated on Spike between the time Angelus left and when she thought Spike betrayed Angelus by siding with the Slayer. Nothing on the show is shown or clearly mentioned to have happened in the years between Angel's curse and them arriving in Sunnydale in 1997. As far as canon goes, Dru was with Spike totally until she got her Daddy back, the only being that trumped Spike, until Spike was no longer worthy by siding with the Slayer.
And it's not like Xander orchestrated Anya losing her power center, etc. He's not even really interested in her to begin with, but Anya's persistent. I wouldn't call them eventually ending up a couple a reward for cheating at all.......they just happen to stay living in the same town.
Nov 22 2010 03:30 pm #123slaymesoftly
Moderator
All good points, CM, and an example of fanon can overwhelm canon.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Nov 22 2010 09:12 pm #124Spikez_tart
Um, from canon only, we don't know that Hank cheated - we only know that there was a divorce and after the divorce, he's hooked up with his secretary. It's a fandom assumption that he cheated. Actually, Buffy tells her vampire psychologist Holden that she thinks Hank cheated. Not definite of course, but it would explain Buffy's bizarro relationships with men. Conversations with Dead People:
HOLDEN
Just answer me this: whose fault was your parents divorce?
BUFFY
(rolls eyes) OK, you know, this is beyond evil. This is insane troll logic. What do my parents have to do with—?
HOLDEN
(sits on sarcophagus) I'm just curious. Your opinion.
BUFFY
(sighs, sits on sarcophagus next to him) They both have a lot of—
HOLDEN
Off the top of your head.
BUFFY
(hangs head) My dad.
HOLDEN
Uh-huh.
BUFFY
He cheated. Um, I think he cheated.
Dru/Angel - Dru's cheating with Angel isn't explicit either, but after Spike kidnaps Angel to string him up and cure Dru, Angel is able to prod Spike into a fury by insinuating that Spike isn't all that great in the sack and that Angel knows what Dru really likes, then while Spike is in a wheel chair, Angel insinuates that he is taking care of Dru sexually while Spike is incapacitated, which also sends Spike into a fury. Angel and Dru are constantly pawing and rubbing each other in front of Spike, too. There's also at least one scene in Angel from the past where Angel has sex with Dru in front of William (not yet Spike?). This is before Angel gets all souled up. Apparently vampires with souls don't cheat on their girlfriends. Except Spike with Harmony.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
If you're talking about Spike & Harmony's newely coporal desk almost sex as the point where Spike was cheating, you're wrong. Spike was not involved with anyone at this point, thus he was single. Single means it's not cheating.
~ Niori ~
I wonder if what the intent of Dawn creature transformation phase will eventually play a part in the finale or next season. What Dawn and Buffy share is the consequences of their first sexual encounter which turns into a later disaster. Interesting also how Buffy's first sex experience is based on their no longer being able to their desire for each other, but they are clearly very much in love. Dawn is just the opposite, she does not love this "roommate" it was strictly a moment of sexual desire and emotional immediate gratification. If I am remembering this wrong, someone please clarify, it's been a long time since I read the issue. But whatever the circumstance what I see is that Buffy's in the "Great Love Moment" and Dawn's is "Everyday Ordinary" - but both sisters ended up being controlled by their boy friends. Buffy and Dawn seem to be physically and emotionally connected ever since Spike and his alien insect crew arrive - also wonder is this connection could also be why both had strong romantic attraction to Xander.
Well, finally all coming to the end, and thank goodness for that - What In The Heck Is Joss Whedon Going To Come Up With? With only two issues left there is going to be so many elements in the series that are just going to be left dangling.
Well, finally all coming to the end, and thank goodness for that - What In The Heck Is Joss Whedon Going To Come Up With? With only two issues left there is going to be so many elements in the series that are just going to be left dangling.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 23 2010 04:56 am #127Caro Mio
Guest
Tart, that's basically what I said about Angelus/Dru. He was the ONLY being we know Dru was with while she was with Spike until Spike sided with Buffy and he dragged Dru out of SunnyD. That's the point, really, that for 100 years, it was just Dru and Spike because 1) Spike was evil enough, and 2) Angelus wasn't around.
Yup, Buffy assumes..........and I always got the vibe that because she 1) thought the divorce was her fault because of Slaying, and 2) that Joyce and Hank only talked about the marriage with each other and not Buffy, that Buffy has to do a lot of assuming about why it didn't work........cuz of course she was guilty somehow *eye roll*. Her parents were probably typical people that didn't make sure their marriage still had good foundations around the kid and the work and suddenly realized they were too different. Yeah, Buffy's "behavioral issues" were a strain, but I hate that Joyce put so much "it's your fault I've got this" on her very young daughter - you don't do that to your kid. Ever.
Yup, Buffy assumes..........and I always got the vibe that because she 1) thought the divorce was her fault because of Slaying, and 2) that Joyce and Hank only talked about the marriage with each other and not Buffy, that Buffy has to do a lot of assuming about why it didn't work........cuz of course she was guilty somehow *eye roll*. Her parents were probably typical people that didn't make sure their marriage still had good foundations around the kid and the work and suddenly realized they were too different. Yeah, Buffy's "behavioral issues" were a strain, but I hate that Joyce put so much "it's your fault I've got this" on her very young daughter - you don't do that to your kid. Ever.
Nov 23 2010 04:12 pm #128DM
Guest
Dru cheated also with the Immortal, as seen in Angel Season 5. Granted, that was at a time when Angelus was still around but if she cheated even when Angelus was around, it's safe to assume she cheated on Spike even when Angelus wasn't around.
Nov 23 2010 04:55 pm #129ladycat713
Guest
I never said that Xander orchestrated the loss of Anya's power center. He did however get Anya from his cheating by the domino effect. If Anya had ended up granted someone elses wish instead of cheated on Cordelia's than she would most likely have left town and never seen him at all.
He didn't seek out a reward but he got it nonetheless.
And quite frankly you have to wonder about Joss sexual hangups given that sex in the Buffyverse seems to almost universally be a bad idea. Dru had her mind broken before losing her virginity and she turned into a cheat, Hank was a cheat who very quickly abandoned his repsponsibilities as a father, Xnader was nearly strangles by faith and was a cheat (non sexual though), Dawn was a cheat who got cursed, Buffy lost her virginity and Angel went on a killing spree, her second lover was only looking to score and judging from his behavior might have been in it for the sex and to humiate women, Riley was a Nazi (let's be real he was) who cheated with vamps while Buffy needed his support the most (while there was no traditional sexual cheating the experience was obviously sexual) , Wood has one heck of an obvious Oedipal complex, Spike was abused by Buffy, He then attempted to rape Buffy (though I consider that a result of snapping and her never ending mixed signals where she acted like she had to be forced - bad message to send to fans too that women are just saying no when they mean yes) , Spike used Harmony (though I don't think she was in love with him he still hurt her) , Buffy used Satsu (knowing she was in love with her ) and Willow both cheated on Kennedy and raped Tara's mind and body (after her mind had been messed with by her family and stolen by Glory ).
He didn't seek out a reward but he got it nonetheless.
And quite frankly you have to wonder about Joss sexual hangups given that sex in the Buffyverse seems to almost universally be a bad idea. Dru had her mind broken before losing her virginity and she turned into a cheat, Hank was a cheat who very quickly abandoned his repsponsibilities as a father, Xnader was nearly strangles by faith and was a cheat (non sexual though), Dawn was a cheat who got cursed, Buffy lost her virginity and Angel went on a killing spree, her second lover was only looking to score and judging from his behavior might have been in it for the sex and to humiate women, Riley was a Nazi (let's be real he was) who cheated with vamps while Buffy needed his support the most (while there was no traditional sexual cheating the experience was obviously sexual) , Wood has one heck of an obvious Oedipal complex, Spike was abused by Buffy, He then attempted to rape Buffy (though I consider that a result of snapping and her never ending mixed signals where she acted like she had to be forced - bad message to send to fans too that women are just saying no when they mean yes) , Spike used Harmony (though I don't think she was in love with him he still hurt her) , Buffy used Satsu (knowing she was in love with her ) and Willow both cheated on Kennedy and raped Tara's mind and body (after her mind had been messed with by her family and stolen by Glory ).
I thik any suffering Xander did was negated by the fact that he got Anya because of Cordelia's wish for vengeance made Anya loose her power center and she ended up with Xander because of it. He gained more than he ever lost.
Xander dating Anya months later doesn't cancel the fact that he suffered the concerquences of his actions after he cheated on Cordelia: Cordelia didn't forgive him like Oz forgave Willow, insulted him any chance she got, made him doubt his place in Buffy's team, and then told everybody about why he slept outside his house in Christmas when it was supposed to be secret between the two of them. Xander got what he deserved. And dating Anya after months of suffering doesn't change that.
Quite frankly I would preferred (if they had to go down the Dawn cheating route) that she have real life consequences.
That would have been fair. Kenny would have got back at Dawn without becoming an abusive monster.
Xander dating Anya months later doesn't cancel the fact that he suffered the concerquences of his actions after he cheated on Cordelia: Cordelia didn't forgive him like Oz forgave Willow, insulted him any chance she got, made him doubt his place in Buffy's team, and then told everybody about why he slept outside his house in Christmas when it was supposed to be secret between the two of them. Xander got what he deserved. And dating Anya after months of suffering doesn't change that.
Quite frankly I would preferred (if they had to go down the Dawn cheating route) that she have real life consequences.
That would have been fair. Kenny would have got back at Dawn without becoming an abusive monster.
Here is the last Q&A with Georges Jeanty before the finale - http://slayaliveforums.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=qa&action=display&thread=11924&page=1
2. bamph: This might be a bit spoilerish but will Buffy know Angel isn't in control of his actions next issue and will there be a element of trying to save him by freeing him of Twilight's control while they fight? Is this what,"rescue the prince" meant back in issue 10?
Georges: Wow. Someone has been reading their trades! Issue 10 was foreshadowing, that's all I can say
I think Buffy is setting this up her remarks about this is not Angelus and not Twilight - and she has even made another distinction when she talks about Angel playing the role of Twilight. In the very first issue - the portrait of "the prince" looking like a very young cavalier with dark hair and plummed hat is shown with the portrait of the queen.
"Georges: See? Good drama! How do you kill the Entity without killing the host?"
Magic of another God/Goddess to absorb the power - Willow has called on to regents of The East and The West - and she has also transferred the force of the Seed Orb onto herself. If the game has now become, "save the prince/Angel" - she will have to either take over the strength of both onto herself or disperse the Twilight force into the new world; possibly have a New Seed of Wonder to imprison the Twilight Force the same as it did in the Earth Origins. This could also be Willow's big test - that sequence with Lion Griffin saying "I will be more monstrous, more beautiful, than anything she has ever feared or fantasied." reminded me of The Lady Galadriel looking into the magic cauldron.
Wild speculation - Faith and Andrew get together and help with using magic to repulse/reflect the Twilight Force. I very happy to hear that Faith will play an important part in the final battle.
From Jeanty's remarks about the future relationship of Buffy and Angel, I smell a big plot twist that will make him once again "the golden hero."
Good Q&A - But there are still many questions left about Angel/Angelus and his connection to the Origins Story and this Slayer Prophecy -
And it maybe that I am a total jerk and evil mean disgusting thing, but I really don't want to see some plot twist that will become a reward for Angel after all that has been presented in this story.
2. bamph: This might be a bit spoilerish but will Buffy know Angel isn't in control of his actions next issue and will there be a element of trying to save him by freeing him of Twilight's control while they fight? Is this what,"rescue the prince" meant back in issue 10?
Georges: Wow. Someone has been reading their trades! Issue 10 was foreshadowing, that's all I can say
I think Buffy is setting this up her remarks about this is not Angelus and not Twilight - and she has even made another distinction when she talks about Angel playing the role of Twilight. In the very first issue - the portrait of "the prince" looking like a very young cavalier with dark hair and plummed hat is shown with the portrait of the queen.
"Georges: See? Good drama! How do you kill the Entity without killing the host?"
Magic of another God/Goddess to absorb the power - Willow has called on to regents of The East and The West - and she has also transferred the force of the Seed Orb onto herself. If the game has now become, "save the prince/Angel" - she will have to either take over the strength of both onto herself or disperse the Twilight force into the new world; possibly have a New Seed of Wonder to imprison the Twilight Force the same as it did in the Earth Origins. This could also be Willow's big test - that sequence with Lion Griffin saying "I will be more monstrous, more beautiful, than anything she has ever feared or fantasied." reminded me of The Lady Galadriel looking into the magic cauldron.
Wild speculation - Faith and Andrew get together and help with using magic to repulse/reflect the Twilight Force. I very happy to hear that Faith will play an important part in the final battle.
From Jeanty's remarks about the future relationship of Buffy and Angel, I smell a big plot twist that will make him once again "the golden hero."
Good Q&A - But there are still many questions left about Angel/Angelus and his connection to the Origins Story and this Slayer Prophecy -
And it maybe that I am a total jerk and evil mean disgusting thing, but I really don't want to see some plot twist that will become a reward for Angel after all that has been presented in this story.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
If you're an total jerk and mean disgusting thing, than I am too- I don't want Angel to get any reward after this (and it's not general Angel hate either, 'cuz I love the guy). I want him to get his ass kicked.
~ Niori ~
Nov 25 2010 08:30 pm #133ladycat713
Guest
Add me to the list.
I could half excuse Buffy seeing Angel as her great true love when she was a teenager even after Angelus because she felt it had to be in order to justify the body count. But shouldn't she have gotten her head out of her A** by now?
This is an incredibly bad way to run things. It says that some people no matter what incredible wrong they do will always get rewarded and others no matter what good they do will never be. I know it's fiction, but c'mon apply some punishment to the right people!
Look at the two contrasting examples of Spike and Angel.
Angel tries to end the world
Spike helps save it without a soul and dies doing so with a soul
Angel was cursed with a soul and never looked into a way to anchor it (and really in that episode where he tried to save Darlas life with the trials and they said he couldn't would've been a great time to ask for his soul to be anchored)
Spike fought for his willingly because he felt guilt which according to Angel and the Watchers was something he wasn't suppossed to be able to feel ( and Boo to Giles and Wesley for not getting all inquisistive about how he got it (though I'm not sure Wes ever knew Spike wasn't cursed) ).
Angel gets a free pass and anything he did wrong while souless was considered to not be him
Spike doesn't (plus when Spike was at Wolfram and Hart , Angel told them that Spike was evil even with a soul yet it seemed that he didn't think about the hypocrisy in not applying it to himself)
Angel went to a monestary when Buffy died and left his friends without needed muscle
Spike stayed, looked after her friends and family because of a promise
Angel shows no sign of remorse and even seperates himself and Angelus as two people (except for one scene with Spike but then Spike wouldn't fall for that crap anyway)
Spike is remorseful and gets a soul (while conversely Buffy the "hero" shows no remorse for her abuse a trend that's continued into season 8)
Spike is the Slayer of Slayers but he fights them in a fair fight where it's just as likely that he will be killed (I don't count the thing with the League Taraka because I saw that as a distraction not a serious kill attempt)
Angel OTOH hand kills Slayers en masse and gets space sex out of the deal.
Buffy and Angel are held up as the heroes and for some reason that means they never have to show any remorse or regret. What the hell kind of twisted ethical base for a mythology is that?!
I could half excuse Buffy seeing Angel as her great true love when she was a teenager even after Angelus because she felt it had to be in order to justify the body count. But shouldn't she have gotten her head out of her A** by now?
This is an incredibly bad way to run things. It says that some people no matter what incredible wrong they do will always get rewarded and others no matter what good they do will never be. I know it's fiction, but c'mon apply some punishment to the right people!
Look at the two contrasting examples of Spike and Angel.
Angel tries to end the world
Spike helps save it without a soul and dies doing so with a soul
Angel was cursed with a soul and never looked into a way to anchor it (and really in that episode where he tried to save Darlas life with the trials and they said he couldn't would've been a great time to ask for his soul to be anchored)
Spike fought for his willingly because he felt guilt which according to Angel and the Watchers was something he wasn't suppossed to be able to feel ( and Boo to Giles and Wesley for not getting all inquisistive about how he got it (though I'm not sure Wes ever knew Spike wasn't cursed) ).
Angel gets a free pass and anything he did wrong while souless was considered to not be him
Spike doesn't (plus when Spike was at Wolfram and Hart , Angel told them that Spike was evil even with a soul yet it seemed that he didn't think about the hypocrisy in not applying it to himself)
Angel went to a monestary when Buffy died and left his friends without needed muscle
Spike stayed, looked after her friends and family because of a promise
Angel shows no sign of remorse and even seperates himself and Angelus as two people (except for one scene with Spike but then Spike wouldn't fall for that crap anyway)
Spike is remorseful and gets a soul (while conversely Buffy the "hero" shows no remorse for her abuse a trend that's continued into season 8)
Spike is the Slayer of Slayers but he fights them in a fair fight where it's just as likely that he will be killed (I don't count the thing with the League Taraka because I saw that as a distraction not a serious kill attempt)
Angel OTOH hand kills Slayers en masse and gets space sex out of the deal.
Buffy and Angel are held up as the heroes and for some reason that means they never have to show any remorse or regret. What the hell kind of twisted ethical base for a mythology is that?!
Just think about what Angel gets away with - sending LA into a Hell dimension - he would not even be alive and survived his big "take on all the friggin demon lords" if his friends had not come in and saved his ass. And what happens when everything is reset - He is put back in the place of Biggest Hero and Champion of all. The character has become ridiculous with how often he is allowed to play the "Grand and Sorrowful Misguided Cursed Vampire."
IDW has again dragged out the cursed vampire lover of Slayer - the dog and pony show is so Old and Tired now.
IDW has again dragged out the cursed vampire lover of Slayer - the dog and pony show is so Old and Tired now.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 26 2010 05:00 pm #135slaymesoftly
Moderator
Awesome compare and contrast summation, ladykat. Should be carved into a wall somewhere... perhaps a wall in Joss's office? Or at DW or IDW?
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Nov 27 2010 04:20 am #136ladycat713
Guest
One bit of clarification I forgot is that Angel actually refers to his unsouled self as Angelus like he's another person (that one scene with Spike is where he actually admits it was something he did instead of referring to himself in the third person)
Spike never refers to himself being another person while unsouled . He's Spike the vampire, he doesn't say call me William.
Spike never refers to himself being another person while unsouled . He's Spike the vampire, he doesn't say call me William.
Anyone else having problems posting - I had this long reply about Angel and "Pangs" and it got deleted by the system with a prompt that I am not allowed to post at the site. This has happened several times in the last two days.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 27 2010 03:50 pm #138slaymesoftly
Moderator
If it continues to happen, nmcil, notify Dia. If it doesn't happen again, then it was probably a temporary hiccup of some kind.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Dec 02 2010 05:36 pm #139Random Person
Guest
Did anyone here read #39? I thought it was pretty good, what with the various twists and such.
Um, how do you do that thing where you hide the Spoilers?
Um, how do you do that thing where you hide the Spoilers?
Dec 02 2010 09:37 pm #140hann23
Guest
Yeah I did. New to the verse. Was quite something. Not sure how to do the spoiler thing...
am willing to chat but major spoilage could happen for others who don't have it. SO don't want to that.
am willing to chat but major spoilage could happen for others who don't have it. SO don't want to that.
Dec 03 2010 04:28 am #142Spikez_tart
hann - wow somebody new - that is just soooo awesome. :)
I always got the vibe that because she 1) thought the divorce was her fault because of Slaying - I never thought it was the slaying specifically. When she has that worst fear moment with Hank - he makes a bunch of jabs about how terrible she is, but doesn't say anything about her slaying. And, since nmcil brought up Pangs, which I was watching last week, all the gang (Buffy's new family) are squabbling and you see Buffy reacting by running away and changing the subject - It's like a little replay of how she acted when her parents were getting a divorce.
Harmony/love for Spike - actually I think she did love Spike. See the scene in Harm's Way where she's sitting in the bar and he comes in after changing his mind about going to Buffy. She's really talking about herself:
I always got the vibe that because she 1) thought the divorce was her fault because of Slaying - I never thought it was the slaying specifically. When she has that worst fear moment with Hank - he makes a bunch of jabs about how terrible she is, but doesn't say anything about her slaying. And, since nmcil brought up Pangs, which I was watching last week, all the gang (Buffy's new family) are squabbling and you see Buffy reacting by running away and changing the subject - It's like a little replay of how she acted when her parents were getting a divorce.
Harmony/love for Spike - actually I think she did love Spike. See the scene in Harm's Way where she's sitting in the bar and he comes in after changing his mind about going to Buffy. She's really talking about herself:
HARMONY
(rolls her eyes)
Come on. Girls don't care about stuff like that. Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly, and it won't matter how horribly you treated her in the past and how you took her for granted, and...
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 03 2010 04:41 am #143Random Person
Guest
Did they who we thought they would?
Who? Um...Dawn? I'm not exactly sure of that.
you are right about Harmony caring about Spike - I forgot about this scene with Spike.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
now that the issue is out everwhere we can discuss issue 39 -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 03 2010 01:59 pm #146Hann23
Guest
Whedon killed who I thought he would. I don't know how to do this spoiler thing so don't click below if you don't want to know...
whedonesque.com
click on spoiler. Not sure if that link worked may have to cut and paste.
I expected it, but was quite sad to SEE it.
Yes, I am new. I watched Buffy originally but I had a very young child and was working and just couldn't keep up. I did watch the finale though. ANd then I was really confused about Spuffy but let it go as it was over. Plus at some point LOST came on and that took over my life.
But this summer, true blood and the channel LOGO conspired against me to bring Buffy back into my life. Got tired of seeing SOOOKIE be manipulated by BIIIIILLLL. So I started watching Buffy on repeats to see a girl kick vamp but. Then I found Spike and then Buffy with Spike sort of/kind of/maybe not. Tooo much. Been watching almost nonstop since the summer. And catching up on the comics. Now know the only resolution to love triangles is found in fan fiction.
Curious if you blame the murderer?. I feel the responsibility is there but I think there will be a pass given. Annoying as my fav never ever gets a pass. ;-)
Dec 03 2010 05:16 pm #147ladycat713
Guest
They went and killed off the reason I started watching Buffy! Spike's the reason I continued watching after a while (cause the Bangel was and is so sappy and turned by stomach) .
Who's the murderer? if it's Angel or Buffy they'll definitely get a pass. They always do. Come to think of it Willow pretty much got a pass for what she did to Tara . Tara left but she came back. And she never completely acknowledged tha it was her not the magic at fault.
Who's the murderer? if it's Angel or Buffy they'll definitely get a pass. They always do. Come to think of it Willow pretty much got a pass for what she did to Tara . Tara left but she came back. And she never completely acknowledged tha it was her not the magic at fault.
Dec 03 2010 05:33 pm #148ladycat713
Guest
I just looked up that bit of info on Wikipedia and I fully expect a storyline that will leave me disgusted.
Dec 03 2010 11:22 pm #149Random Person
Guest
Well, the murderer isn't going to get off that easily, according to this: http://goo.gl/fb/0U8Nf (WARNING: Spoilers), and ...just look at this: http://goo.gl/fb/6KPs5 The END of Bangel, people! Rejoice! While you still can!
Well, it's a rumor, but I REALLY doubt Buffy would hook up with Angel again after this.
Well, it's a rumor, but I REALLY doubt Buffy would hook up with Angel again after this.
Dec 03 2010 11:38 pm #150Random Person
Guest
http://goo.gl/fb/6KPs5 (MAJOR SPOILERS)
Apperantly not. Scott Allie said that #40 was going to be the wedding issue, 'because so much fans have been asking for it'
It is because of this line that I am holding on to the hope that he was making a very cruel joke, otherwise I will throw away all of my Buffy Season Eight comics and pretend that Season Eight was just another horrible nightmare. Then, in my mind, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended at Season Seven or Angel Season Five.
Apperantly not. Scott Allie said that #40 was going to be the wedding issue, 'because so much fans have been asking for it'
It is because of this line that I am holding on to the hope that he was making a very cruel joke, otherwise I will throw away all of my Buffy Season Eight comics and pretend that Season Eight was just another horrible nightmare. Then, in my mind, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended at Season Seven or Angel Season Five.
Dec 04 2010 12:13 am #151ladycat713
Guest
If it's a Bangel wedding than we can all officially call Buffy brain dead cause obviously she's not thinking with what's between her ears.It better be a cruel joke.
And season 8 is a horrible nightmare, unfortunately we're all sharing it. and it was committed to print.
The review didn't mention Dawn. Is she no more and they've forgotten her . If they have then there's 2 death's not one.
Maybe the wedding is Dawn and Xander. I think the pairing's creepy given his years of wanting her sister but still less creepy than Bangel.
I did think this bit was interesting from
http://goo.gl/fb/0U8Nf
"Spike's off chasing monsters. He wasn't part of the crew this season and, frankly, lucky him. He's smarter than the rest, though. He knows that, even though this is tragedy of the highest order, that Buffy will go on living because she has to. He knows there's more to life than a seed of wonder. That's why Season 8 wasn't his story, particularly. The lessons that Buffy and Angel had to learn are ones Spike already knows."
You would have thought they would have learned these lessons by now. Angel's certainly a lot older than Spike and Buffy's been a supposed hero for longer. And yes he is smarter than them. Angel and the Scoobies never seemed to appreciate his or Anya's intelligence.
I posted the issue at my flickr site - still have page 27 to scan but I just got too tired of doing scans - Since the first part of this issue is a repeat of ending of issue 38, I left those off until later. Wanted to put up the new pages first. Sorry about page 27 but everything else should be up. You have to look at The Set because the pages on my home page are not in order, but as I scanned them. Also, I did not scale back the sizes as I usually do - so be sure that you open the "Actions" and this will let you choose various sizes -
Buffy Issue 39 Set Link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/sets/72157625524583728/with/5230875932/
Buffy Issue 39 Set Link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/sets/72157625524583728/with/5230875932/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Kitty Twilight is now back in his own world - the visual of his walking shows him in the same environment as the Paradise Eden post Cosmic Sex - having to revisit those images really upset me - it's such an offensive treatment and theme of using women as sexual objects - and that Buffy has never expressed any real outrage for how she was used I find very disturbing. I hope that Joss Whedon will have a mature and honest statement by the character regarding this usage of her body as a sexual vessel. But why would I be expecting anything like this - even in this issue, and after all that she has lived through and all the Slayers that were killed, people that she was responsible, she is thinking of how to save Angel and separate him from Angel/Twilight.
I am so happy that this has all just about finished - too many years with what I think is a very strange story that has left too many unanswered questions about what this Origins theme as about. What part do the Guardians from the ending of BtVS have in this now? Were they part of the Super Force of the originators of The Slayer Scythe? Too many question still to be answered.
I think that phrase about people wanting the wedding is a take off on something Joss Whedon had stated once before.
I am so happy that this has all just about finished - too many years with what I think is a very strange story that has left too many unanswered questions about what this Origins theme as about. What part do the Guardians from the ending of BtVS have in this now? Were they part of the Super Force of the originators of The Slayer Scythe? Too many question still to be answered.
I think that phrase about people wanting the wedding is a take off on something Joss Whedon had stated once before.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
the entire issue 39 is now posted at my flickr site - what a blockhead I am, I confused all the CBR Preview Images with having been part of the previous issue - there was so much discussion about the preview images that I forgot the issue had not come out yet. Anyway everything is there now.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/sets/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/sets/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
You want my reaction for this issue?
I cried. I cried so hard. It reminded me of Chosen, how tears started sliding down my cheeks the second Anya died –not just because Anya died, but also because it's the end. S8 is over. The ride is done. I mean, all the excitement about a new Chen cover, the giddiness I feel whenever a preview is released, the way I bite my nails when reading fans' reviews and hope everybody enjoyed the new issue, and the way I tap my foot restlessly wishing I could read the new issue so I can write questions to Jeanty (And Scott Allie before)
It's all over.
I know we still have #40 but it's mostly a setup for S9…
Buffy's reaction to Giles' death killed me! I cried for Giles' shocked eyes, for Buffy's fat rich tears, for Xander slapping Angel's hand away. I also cried for Willow's wide eyes –her reaction to losing magic and connection with Aluwyn is SO WELL DRAWN! I never thought I'd cry for Willow, but Jeanty made me cry despite of myself –it's like how Alyson H would make you cry for Willow on the show. My heart squeezed for Kennedy who rushed to hug Willow –knowing nothing about Snake Lady and all the crap Willow is doing behind her back.
I was horrified at the melting Slayers, that was so creepy and awful. I hope Satsu and Rowena survived.
I really loved the Spike scene. I love his faith in Buffy and his proud smile because she did it.
While I wish that Xander did something more than just stand around and watch, I personally didn't hate his role much. His faith in Buffy made me happy, brushing Angel's hand away and going to comfort Buffy was also good.
I feel really bad for Buffy. Everybody seems to hate her now and it breaks my heart. I can never imagine how hard it must have been for her: leading all these girls, being known worldwide and not in a good light, being rejected by Giles for Faith and by Xander for Dawn, and then hearing Willow blaming her for Tara's death and keeping Kennedy away from her so she wouldn't die. Pushing Satsu and Xander away so they won't get hurt. And then, in a moment of weakness, falls for Angel's lies –or probably not lies from his prospective- and causes the new apocalypse. I have nothing but love and sympathy for Buffy. She really needs a therapist and some time alone –away from everybody and everything.
What I disliked about the issue is Warren and Amy in Rome –I wish they stuck around and fought with the others. It would have redeemed them a bit. And why the hell is Rome okay when the whole world is facing the apocalypse?
I cried. I cried so hard. It reminded me of Chosen, how tears started sliding down my cheeks the second Anya died –not just because Anya died, but also because it's the end. S8 is over. The ride is done. I mean, all the excitement about a new Chen cover, the giddiness I feel whenever a preview is released, the way I bite my nails when reading fans' reviews and hope everybody enjoyed the new issue, and the way I tap my foot restlessly wishing I could read the new issue so I can write questions to Jeanty (And Scott Allie before)
It's all over.
I know we still have #40 but it's mostly a setup for S9…
Buffy's reaction to Giles' death killed me! I cried for Giles' shocked eyes, for Buffy's fat rich tears, for Xander slapping Angel's hand away. I also cried for Willow's wide eyes –her reaction to losing magic and connection with Aluwyn is SO WELL DRAWN! I never thought I'd cry for Willow, but Jeanty made me cry despite of myself –it's like how Alyson H would make you cry for Willow on the show. My heart squeezed for Kennedy who rushed to hug Willow –knowing nothing about Snake Lady and all the crap Willow is doing behind her back.
I was horrified at the melting Slayers, that was so creepy and awful. I hope Satsu and Rowena survived.
I really loved the Spike scene. I love his faith in Buffy and his proud smile because she did it.
While I wish that Xander did something more than just stand around and watch, I personally didn't hate his role much. His faith in Buffy made me happy, brushing Angel's hand away and going to comfort Buffy was also good.
I feel really bad for Buffy. Everybody seems to hate her now and it breaks my heart. I can never imagine how hard it must have been for her: leading all these girls, being known worldwide and not in a good light, being rejected by Giles for Faith and by Xander for Dawn, and then hearing Willow blaming her for Tara's death and keeping Kennedy away from her so she wouldn't die. Pushing Satsu and Xander away so they won't get hurt. And then, in a moment of weakness, falls for Angel's lies –or probably not lies from his prospective- and causes the new apocalypse. I have nothing but love and sympathy for Buffy. She really needs a therapist and some time alone –away from everybody and everything.
What I disliked about the issue is Warren and Amy in Rome –I wish they stuck around and fought with the others. It would have redeemed them a bit. And why the hell is Rome okay when the whole world is facing the apocalypse?
Dec 04 2010 10:03 pm #157slaymesoftly
Moderator
slaymesoftly.livejournal.com/398525.html#cutid1 this is the link to my review. It's on my LJ and probably too long to put up here, although I will if anyone is having trouble seeing it.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Thanks nmcil for posting that link to your site...it's the only way I'm able to read the comics, cause I stopped buying them a while back. :)
On the marriage issue, I am pretty sure it's a joke based on my reading of the issues and the interviews with Scott Allie. Here's an interview that you may want to check out. Interviewer asks about Spike in 40. Scott says he gets a "good" I think scene? box? Anyways, it's better then nothin. Only worry is that Joss wrote it and his def of "good" for Spike doesn't match mine. It's his boy toy though.
QUestion about Spike is in part 2. Part 1 has great discussion about Angel and his responsibilities. About Giles and his intent. Part 3 is about Allie's other projects:
http://www.tfaw.com/blog/2010/12/03/spoiler-exclusive-video-interview-with-scott-allie-on-buffy-39/
Sorry for delay, tried posting yesterday but alas had trouble with popups or something. The interview def clarified things for me. I don't know what that says about the writing in the comics though.
QUestion about Spike is in part 2. Part 1 has great discussion about Angel and his responsibilities. About Giles and his intent. Part 3 is about Allie's other projects:
http://www.tfaw.com/blog/2010/12/03/spoiler-exclusive-video-interview-with-scott-allie-on-buffy-39/
Sorry for delay, tried posting yesterday but alas had trouble with popups or something. The interview def clarified things for me. I don't know what that says about the writing in the comics though.
The death of Giles will take a long time to really understand that he is no longer a part of the active Buffyverse - it came hard on me, this realization that Giles is no more when I was doing some Holiday Season graphics. Giles is just gone now, everything from now on will be a memorial and memories of Giles. I really dislike Angel so much right now, and Buffy, it's not like I dislike her, it's more like I am totally pissed off at her - like a parent or family member or great friend would feel about one of their loved ones doing something really stupid or completely self destructive.
Anyone go over to the Dark Horse forum?
Thanks for posting the LJ link for your review - off to read now.
Anyone go over to the Dark Horse forum?
Thanks for posting the LJ link for your review - off to read now.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 06 2010 03:29 pm #161Nick Scarlett
Guest
Since someone asked if Dawn is still around....
S
P
O
I
L
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R
Scott Allie, in the tfaw interview, said she is with Buffy in San Francisco. It was my prediction that Xander would be the one to break the seed (all the set-up seemed to be pointing to him as the one, I thought), and that it would stop Twilight, but also unmake Dawn. Evidently, it didn't do that.
Pretty positive the wedding issue thing was just a joke. I'd like to think Bangel was dead forever, but probably we'll get more of them pining for each other and looking forward to the day when they can find a way to be together again. Of course, if they were to ever get back together now, they might as well just do it on top of Giles's grave -- after pissing on it.
With the story that was being presented, especially since the Brad Meltzer arc, it pretty much had to me Buffy that either destroyed TSOW or Angel/Twangel. If this was Buffy's War and Buffy's Story, she is the only character that either had to destroy and create a new life/phase or be destroyed herself. Season 8, I hope with all my heart, was the final end to her life chained to Angel/Angelus.
If Buffy continues with her powerful need to be connected to Angel/Angelus it will, IMVHO, be either as a model of the female All Forgiving Christ or that of a very emotionally ill and disturb young woman. If Season 6 and her destructive relationship and use of Spike that ends up in the AR, Season 8 is almost like Buffy turning Season 6 on herself with the Cosmic Sex arc - so interesting that Buffy takes on herself the "universal vengeance" and what a great parallel to Season 6 is that Spike was there to help her and "have her back." The tragic downside is that Giles had to play the role of the parental transformation from the Father/Guide to Child/Adult - and especially miserable is that he also had to play in the final phase of Angel/Angelus/Lover with the repeat in the same death that Jenny suffered.
Me, I am a evil, disgusting, petty thing; I hope she never again wants to have any personal connection with him.
If Buffy continues with her powerful need to be connected to Angel/Angelus it will, IMVHO, be either as a model of the female All Forgiving Christ or that of a very emotionally ill and disturb young woman. If Season 6 and her destructive relationship and use of Spike that ends up in the AR, Season 8 is almost like Buffy turning Season 6 on herself with the Cosmic Sex arc - so interesting that Buffy takes on herself the "universal vengeance" and what a great parallel to Season 6 is that Spike was there to help her and "have her back." The tragic downside is that Giles had to play the role of the parental transformation from the Father/Guide to Child/Adult - and especially miserable is that he also had to play in the final phase of Angel/Angelus/Lover with the repeat in the same death that Jenny suffered.
Me, I am a evil, disgusting, petty thing; I hope she never again wants to have any personal connection with him.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 07 2010 03:37 am #163ladycat713
Guest
Unmaking Dawn actually would have made sense so naturally they didn't do it. It also would have made sense for her transformations after losing her virginity to be a side effect of her being the Key because there was a certain star alignment or something like that or her virginal blood combined with semen from her thricewise boyfriend cause the transformation (if she had slept with her boyfriend)..
Instead they went for a sordid reason to change her and force her back to Slayer central. Dawn being the Key is a wonderful plot device just waiting to be exploited yet they dropped it completely once Glory was gone. Doing that didn't make sense since bleeding shouldn't have changed what she was , after all she cut herself on Buffy's birthday and it didn't do anything because it wasn't the right confluence of events so her being the Key should have been fully explored. Finding out who her father is would have been a good plotline too since Buffy was told that Dawn was made from her (not Buffy's parents) and if Dawn was made solely from Buffy then she would be a clone. Spike would be a good father candidate especially since you could say that if the knife that cut Dawn didn't have Spike's blood on it , the gateway would have immediately opened because it was like the blood was partially locking the gate so the portal had to slowly squeeze through.
And if Buffy does get together with Angel again it will be a heinous act. She's disrespected enough dead and alive people already by being with him .
Instead they went for a sordid reason to change her and force her back to Slayer central. Dawn being the Key is a wonderful plot device just waiting to be exploited yet they dropped it completely once Glory was gone. Doing that didn't make sense since bleeding shouldn't have changed what she was , after all she cut herself on Buffy's birthday and it didn't do anything because it wasn't the right confluence of events so her being the Key should have been fully explored. Finding out who her father is would have been a good plotline too since Buffy was told that Dawn was made from her (not Buffy's parents) and if Dawn was made solely from Buffy then she would be a clone. Spike would be a good father candidate especially since you could say that if the knife that cut Dawn didn't have Spike's blood on it , the gateway would have immediately opened because it was like the blood was partially locking the gate so the portal had to slowly squeeze through.
And if Buffy does get together with Angel again it will be a heinous act. She's disrespected enough dead and alive people already by being with him .
It's interesting that Jeanty inserts that reference to Klimt's Judith I painting - this artist also has Judith II which depicts Salome - both women have taken the heads of men. Wonder if this is a visual foreshadow or a writer's joke about all the criticism that was expected about the death of Giles.
If Dark Horse, IMVHO, even suggests that Buffy will continue her emotional need and connection with Angel/Angelus - they will lose a lot of fans. The company already has a very big hurdle to jump with doing an attempt to bring Angel/Angelus back - right now the only positive response has been about how the character will transform. Personally, right now I could care less, if the deconstruction and new version of Angel was the goal, part one was certainly successful. It's like "The Judgement" was taken to it's highest possible level.
If Dark Horse, IMVHO, even suggests that Buffy will continue her emotional need and connection with Angel/Angelus - they will lose a lot of fans. The company already has a very big hurdle to jump with doing an attempt to bring Angel/Angelus back - right now the only positive response has been about how the character will transform. Personally, right now I could care less, if the deconstruction and new version of Angel was the goal, part one was certainly successful. It's like "The Judgement" was taken to it's highest possible level.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Does anyone know the title of the FF story that used the premise that Buffy and Spike are the biological parental source for Dawn -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 08 2010 02:22 pm #166ladycat713
Guest
iI'm pretty sure that at least one of maryperk's have that.
Dec 10 2010 06:41 am #167SpaceLord
Guest
I think in the "Origins" series Spike and Buffy are the biological source for Dawn.
"The company already has a very big hurdle to jump with doing an attempt to bring Angel/Angelus back - right now the only positive response has been about how the character will transform. Personally, right now I could care less, if the deconstruction and new version of Angel was the goal, part one was certainly successful."
As a lurker here, it seems to me that they are using the same old idea of Angel doing bad deeds when he's not himself, at least that's what it looks like from the dazed reaction after he's killed Giles... more sounds of barrels being scraped. Am I mistaken?
As a lurker here, it seems to me that they are using the same old idea of Angel doing bad deeds when he's not himself, at least that's what it looks like from the dazed reaction after he's killed Giles... more sounds of barrels being scraped. Am I mistaken?
I would like to see the Klimt Judith reference be about someone going after Angel's head and not have it be a joke about the fan base response to this latest issue and the series in general - Almost all the response from the sites that I visit has been mostly negative.
Off with his head - who would be The Red Queen or Judith?
Off with his head - who would be The Red Queen or Judith?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 11 2010 12:07 am #171ladycat713
Guest
Maybe a guilt ridden Buffy will be screaming for his head. After , she's never really gone after him full force before. When she sent him through the portal it was a necessity and it seemed mostly like she was stalling so that his soul would be reinserted before she had to kill him.
Dec 11 2010 08:46 am #173ladycat713
Guest
If it is Xander it would come in handy Buffy lost her powers and he got them . Especially if Angel still has all his Twilight powers.
The character who is really screwed power wise is Willow - she has lost her powers that come from magic - and judging from her reaction to their loss when Buffy talked everyone into sending their supernatural and magic power down into the Earth Goddesses, Willow is not going to feel good about losing her magic. Nor do I think would most people, while Buffy was always going on about how much she wanted that fantasy normal life, when she did lose her Slayer Powers she had a rude awakening about what their loss would actually translate to. One of the reasons that I don't much care for Shanshued Spike works is because I don't think the character would like not having his vampire strengths, same for Willow.
I am so looking forward to Joss Whedon's final issue of Buffy Season 8 -
I am so looking forward to Joss Whedon's final issue of Buffy Season 8 -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 12 2010 07:01 pm #175Spikez_tart
what it looks like from the dazed reaction after he's killed Giles... more sounds of barrels being scraped. Am I mistaken
I finally got the Giles gets killed issue. As usual it took me about three passes to figure out what happened. So, my first question is, since Angel has now killed Giles, what is Buffy going to do about it? Giles isn't just some group of 200 or so girls she never met that Angel has killed. No, he's Giles - father, companion, sometimes betrayer. (Which is why it's too bad that Giles got killed - he's good for at least one major betrayal per season.) The idea that Angel is going to go for the "it wasn't the real me" scenario makes me want to barf. It's bad enough that JW abandoned the idea that sunlight burns vampires for Angel (and not for Spike) and that Angel has a cursy curse. All I can say is Lame Lame Lame.
It was nice seeing Buffy save Spike from Angel. Of course she didn't actually follow through and make sure he was safe. It was good to see her whacking the seed with her axe. It didn't break my heart that the potentials melted or whatever the hell happened to them (I know they're humans and all that, but I just hate the very idea of the Potentials now Slayers) and I'm pretty pleased Willow is going to get stripped or her powers either. She's just too smug for words.
Question - if all of the "magic" is being sucked out of the world, shouldn't that get rid of Angel and Spike, two magical creatures, Dawn and strip the superpowers out of Buffy and Faith and just make them regular girls again?
I finally got the Giles gets killed issue. As usual it took me about three passes to figure out what happened. So, my first question is, since Angel has now killed Giles, what is Buffy going to do about it? Giles isn't just some group of 200 or so girls she never met that Angel has killed. No, he's Giles - father, companion, sometimes betrayer. (Which is why it's too bad that Giles got killed - he's good for at least one major betrayal per season.) The idea that Angel is going to go for the "it wasn't the real me" scenario makes me want to barf. It's bad enough that JW abandoned the idea that sunlight burns vampires for Angel (and not for Spike) and that Angel has a cursy curse. All I can say is Lame Lame Lame.
It was nice seeing Buffy save Spike from Angel. Of course she didn't actually follow through and make sure he was safe. It was good to see her whacking the seed with her axe. It didn't break my heart that the potentials melted or whatever the hell happened to them (I know they're humans and all that, but I just hate the very idea of the Potentials now Slayers) and I'm pretty pleased Willow is going to get stripped or her powers either. She's just too smug for words.
Question - if all of the "magic" is being sucked out of the world, shouldn't that get rid of Angel and Spike, two magical creatures, Dawn and strip the superpowers out of Buffy and Faith and just make them regular girls again?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 13 2010 01:10 am #176Jeleyne
Guest
Question - if all of the "magic" is being sucked out of the world, shouldn't that get rid of Angel and Spike, two magical creatures, Dawn and strip the superpowers out of Buffy and Faith and just make them regular girls again?
Oh, dear. You're asking for consistency? From Joss "Angel was Spike's sire, no, wait, it was Dru, unless it maybe it was Yoda but that can't be right because Angel was his Yoda and what was the question again" Whedon?
Oh, dear. You're asking for consistency? From Joss "Angel was Spike's sire, no, wait, it was Dru, unless it maybe it was Yoda but that can't be right because Angel was his Yoda and what was the question again" Whedon?
Does it make me a terrible person that I wish she had lopped off Angel's head instead of breaking the seed?
On that note, if Angel were to get his head lopped off, do you think he would still turn to dust? Or would him being super vamp (insert eye roll here) make that not happen?
On that note, if Angel were to get his head lopped off, do you think he would still turn to dust? Or would him being super vamp (insert eye roll here) make that not happen?
~ Niori ~
Dec 13 2010 09:05 pm #178ladycat713
Guest
No that makes you a sane and reasonable person.
And if he didn't dust , wold we have gotten to see him stumbling around trying to find his head and it being kicked around like a kickball.
Dec 14 2010 02:34 am #179Spikez_tart
Oh, dear. You're asking for consistency? From Joss - Smacks head. What was I thinking???
And if he didn't dust , wold we have gotten to see him stumbling around trying to find his head and it being kicked around like a kickball. - LMAO. That would have been so much better.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 15 2010 03:51 pm #180Hann23
Guest
so then I am not completely crazy at not being able to follow these comics? I mean I'm new to the buffyverse and I am having a hard time trying to follow them. I am especially having a hard time reconciling what happened in the last comic with the future dark willow-buffy-harth-fray interaction from Time of Your Life. I just can't figure out what they were going for? I mean is Fray no more? Is it gone? Banging head against wall....
Have to say, I feel bad for Angel. Yeah I know, but I like Angel from his own series. He's not my favorite character but I just don't think he's in character with these comics. I just don't think Angel of the series would go to such lengths to help Buffy evolve. He seems more astute then that. If Angel really took on the whole Twilight mission to save the world, once he realized that he was really killing his current world and creating a new one, wouldn't he have backed out? I mean I just don't see Angel really trying to kill everyone still alive he cares about. I think Connor is numero one right? Is Connor still alive? He likes Faith too and she's still alive. And Illyria too. Who really is Fred sort off...
Struggling today with all this...
Have to say, I feel bad for Angel. Yeah I know, but I like Angel from his own series. He's not my favorite character but I just don't think he's in character with these comics. I just don't think Angel of the series would go to such lengths to help Buffy evolve. He seems more astute then that. If Angel really took on the whole Twilight mission to save the world, once he realized that he was really killing his current world and creating a new one, wouldn't he have backed out? I mean I just don't see Angel really trying to kill everyone still alive he cares about. I think Connor is numero one right? Is Connor still alive? He likes Faith too and she's still alive. And Illyria too. Who really is Fred sort off...
Struggling today with all this...
Dec 16 2010 02:52 am #181Spikez_tart
Reading the comics three or four times sometimes helps me, but the whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I am sure that Season 9 will give us more back history on Angel/Angelus and his "fallen Angel story" - For me, the only way that I have been able to come to any understanding of this story is with an interpretation as metaphor - there is no way that I can connect and even accept the premise of Buffy-Angel/Twangel as Sex Vessels & Creators, it's so far out there. It feels like Joss Whedon is intentionally destroying everything about the Buffyverse and it's TV series era while also seeing how far he can ride the devotion of the Buffyverse fans. Speaking only for myself, but this Lion Twilight Creation Story, outside of metaphor is complete nonsense. WTF did the writers not develop the only element that would have given some logic basis for the series, the CoW prophecy that Giles introduced with the "Planet Origins" story?
Frankly, the Joss Whedon and Brad Meltzer premise, IMVHO, it simply too far removed from reality to make it emotionally connect with the readers and fans. What are the only things that have really touched the readers and fans about this season? From what I have read in the forums, granted I don't visit many or often, is the human emotional elements - little else seems to really connect with a great many readers. Buffy and her "love baggage" and "emotional health" are one element. Angel/Angelus' moral and ethical choices are another as well as the question of "how & why." Giles and Faith and their developed relationship as well as the Love story between Xander and Dawn. The emotional and powerful impact of "The Chain" along with the killing of Renee. For the Bangel fans, the ending of where their reunion took them. Spike and Spuffy fans were excited and curious to learn about their relationship post "Chosen" and how Spike has developed as a character. And of course, nothing in the entire series is as emotionally significant as the death of Giles at the hands of Angel/Twangel/Twilight and the consequences of what Buffy's choice to disregard what she experienced all through the season up to the moment of her choice to reunite with Angel and, IMO, to escape into her misguided and "lovers forever" emotional desire and need.
Frankly, the Joss Whedon and Brad Meltzer premise, IMVHO, it simply too far removed from reality to make it emotionally connect with the readers and fans. What are the only things that have really touched the readers and fans about this season? From what I have read in the forums, granted I don't visit many or often, is the human emotional elements - little else seems to really connect with a great many readers. Buffy and her "love baggage" and "emotional health" are one element. Angel/Angelus' moral and ethical choices are another as well as the question of "how & why." Giles and Faith and their developed relationship as well as the Love story between Xander and Dawn. The emotional and powerful impact of "The Chain" along with the killing of Renee. For the Bangel fans, the ending of where their reunion took them. Spike and Spuffy fans were excited and curious to learn about their relationship post "Chosen" and how Spike has developed as a character. And of course, nothing in the entire series is as emotionally significant as the death of Giles at the hands of Angel/Twangel/Twilight and the consequences of what Buffy's choice to disregard what she experienced all through the season up to the moment of her choice to reunite with Angel and, IMO, to escape into her misguided and "lovers forever" emotional desire and need.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 21 2010 03:17 am #183Spikez_tart
Okay - I hadn't thought about S9. I was hoping it was over and I could return to my regular programming. But now I'm thinking. Giles and Faith were close. Angel killed Giles. Faith is going to be pissed!
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I watched "Amends" again few days ago - and I had forgotten just how much rage Giles was holding against Angel/Angelus. The episode is outstanding the way they treat Giles and his family and home theme. We see Giles doing domestic chores, cooking; which is mostly associated with a female role. Angel arrives and interrupts his cooking and Giles is astonished that Angel would actually come to his home. Giles will not give him entrance and goes and gets his crossbow which he aims and holds against Angel/Angelus.
Buffy, being so self -absorbed with her own desires and emotional needs does not even seem to have a clue how much pain and anger Giles is still feeling against Angel - and she insists that he help her and Angel research the dreams that they are sharing and the emotional meltdown that Angel is going through. Obviously it is Giles' duty and from his emotional connection to Buffy, he needs to help find out what is going on, but the point I am trying to address is that Giles must fight against his own emotional state to help her. Elements of that event are repeated in the last issue when the same killer of Jenny will now kill Giles.
"Amends" is just as important to Giles and the Scoobies with the theme of mercy and forgiveness as it is for Angel/Angelus and his "redemption" story. It's interesting that the one character who starts out on her "change road" is Buffy, who in the end of the episode is put back into the same untenable position regarding her love for Angel/Angelus. Giles and Xander and Willow start back on their path of trying to work with Angel due to their love of Buffy. Angel, once again gets his "destiny's child" treatment and is put back on his "redemption story" - But who is responsible for his return? Jenny/The First states that evil forces are responsible. Did the PTB send the snow? Even at this point, Angel is not at all in control of his life and when he wants to control his own destiny and life, it is Buffy who controls him and demands that he stay in the world.
Joss Whedon wrote this all important episode, and he inserted that visual at the cinema of the film Abilene , a film about mercy, forgiveness and traveling on your own demanding life road. How do you think that the themes of "Amends" might apply to Season 8? Angel/Twilight, just as Angel/Angelus did, is responsible for killing Buffy's father figure and thousands of innocent people and all those Slayers - will Joss Whedon demand that readers and his fans accept that Angel/Twangel is not to be held fully responsible for his actions?
Just as Spike was shown mercy and made whole again with Buffy's help when he was under attack and control of The First, does Angel/Angelus now have to be shown the same level of mercy as Spike received or is the scope of events so catastrophic that he needs to be held to different standards of judgement?
Buffy, being so self -absorbed with her own desires and emotional needs does not even seem to have a clue how much pain and anger Giles is still feeling against Angel - and she insists that he help her and Angel research the dreams that they are sharing and the emotional meltdown that Angel is going through. Obviously it is Giles' duty and from his emotional connection to Buffy, he needs to help find out what is going on, but the point I am trying to address is that Giles must fight against his own emotional state to help her. Elements of that event are repeated in the last issue when the same killer of Jenny will now kill Giles.
"Amends" is just as important to Giles and the Scoobies with the theme of mercy and forgiveness as it is for Angel/Angelus and his "redemption" story. It's interesting that the one character who starts out on her "change road" is Buffy, who in the end of the episode is put back into the same untenable position regarding her love for Angel/Angelus. Giles and Xander and Willow start back on their path of trying to work with Angel due to their love of Buffy. Angel, once again gets his "destiny's child" treatment and is put back on his "redemption story" - But who is responsible for his return? Jenny/The First states that evil forces are responsible. Did the PTB send the snow? Even at this point, Angel is not at all in control of his life and when he wants to control his own destiny and life, it is Buffy who controls him and demands that he stay in the world.
Joss Whedon wrote this all important episode, and he inserted that visual at the cinema of the film Abilene , a film about mercy, forgiveness and traveling on your own demanding life road. How do you think that the themes of "Amends" might apply to Season 8? Angel/Twilight, just as Angel/Angelus did, is responsible for killing Buffy's father figure and thousands of innocent people and all those Slayers - will Joss Whedon demand that readers and his fans accept that Angel/Twangel is not to be held fully responsible for his actions?
Just as Spike was shown mercy and made whole again with Buffy's help when he was under attack and control of The First, does Angel/Angelus now have to be shown the same level of mercy as Spike received or is the scope of events so catastrophic that he needs to be held to different standards of judgement?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 21 2010 04:58 pm #185Adara
Guest
nmcil, I've been lurking on this thread and others for a long time, just enjoying reading the debate and the many viewpoints of all you lovely ladies and gents, but this post I can't help responding to. (Look at me, ending sentences with prepositions- bad English major!)
The way Buffy forced Giles's help in dealing with Angel always struck a chord with me, mostly because she was displaying the same self-centeredness that kept Giles and Jenny apart in those crucial days leading up to her death. Who knows what they could have had if she hadn't made it clear that if he was loyal to her he would stay away from Ms. Calender, since it was obviously mostly her fault Angel was a bad guy now. That argument never held much water for me- yes, she withheld her knowledge about his curse, but how was she supposed to know they were going to have sex, causing Angel to experience the dreaded happy? It's not like the guy looked any happier than normal. But anyway, here she is, after she's supposedly grown, still blinded by her devotion to Angel, oblivious to what this has to be doing to her Watcher and surrogate father.
I'm not necessarily saying she's wrong, because although I'm iffy on the "Angel is not responsible for his actions without a soul" theory, especially as the series developed and we had our boy Spike to counterpoint that mythology, at that point in the series the argument made more sense than it didn't. And therefore yes, Angel deserved to be helped and put back on the road to atonement. But OW! Poor Giles, and she doesn't even notice!
Having said all that, now there's this. S8. Twangel. WTF-ery abounds. Let me go ahead and admit, I have not read the comics, except for occasionally looking at the images on your flickr, nmcil, and reading any reviews that are linked in these forums. I can't bring myself to buy a single one. But from what I can tell- and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong- Angel somehow chose this.
Choice is what clinches it for me. The act of choosing makes all the difference in the world. Angel did not choose to get his soul (unlike some vampires we know), so I'm not too impressed by him having it. However, he also didn't choose to lose it (although he didn't put much effort into keeping it, after he knew it could be lost, but that's another rant), so it makes his actions as Angelus- to me, anyway- a little easier to forgive. But now, he chose to be Twilight, and we're still supposed to forget everything he's done? We're supposed to forgive him for slaughtering Slayers, for trying to escape with Buffy from a world they doomed, for killing Giles?
I don't think so.
I don't care that the glowing lion universe baby eventually posessed him. That's a poor attempt at retroactive causality. Maybe Angel can't be held accountable for what he did when angry!universe!baby took him over, but that happened in what? The third to last comic? What about everything before that? What about the fact that Angel's choices and actions (along with Buffy's, but that's a WTF I can't even get into) led directly to the creation of the thing that is now "controlling" him? No. Angel's out of chances. There's no more excuses.
In regards to your Spike/The First vs. Angel/Twilight scenario, once again, it all comes down to choice. It's not about the level of damage and catastrophe caused by their respective actions. Spike was tortured, tormented, and forced against his will to hurt others under the First's influence. Angel chose to become Twilight, and until it's proven otherwise, he is responsible for everything that he did after the fact.
Wow, that was long. And rambly. Now you see why I don't post often. And by often I mean at all.
Well - I wish you would post more often - we need more members posting their ideas - especially now with Season 8 and the completion of all these years of the comic book season.
Joss Whedon, according to the interviews. wanted that direct visual link to Jenny's death - it's all come full circle. Buffy was such a bitch to Jenny Calendar after all the shit hit the fan. And Jenny had absolutely nothing whatever to do with Buffy's choices post the night of great love. Buffy's wanting to help relieve some of her own guilt against Jenny with this "first line" defensive response is often a response to extreme stress, both by the young and the not so young. But Giles was also wrong in letting his emotions, feeling betrayed, interfere with his duties as a Watcher and playing more of the adult in this situation. Makes his Season 8 praise of Buffy and what she has become even more poignant since it is once again Buffy's desire and emotional needs that are primarily responsible for Angel/Twilight and his death.
I just hope that Joss Whedon will bring in some info and statement about all the slayers that were killed.
Joss Whedon, according to the interviews. wanted that direct visual link to Jenny's death - it's all come full circle. Buffy was such a bitch to Jenny Calendar after all the shit hit the fan. And Jenny had absolutely nothing whatever to do with Buffy's choices post the night of great love. Buffy's wanting to help relieve some of her own guilt against Jenny with this "first line" defensive response is often a response to extreme stress, both by the young and the not so young. But Giles was also wrong in letting his emotions, feeling betrayed, interfere with his duties as a Watcher and playing more of the adult in this situation. Makes his Season 8 praise of Buffy and what she has become even more poignant since it is once again Buffy's desire and emotional needs that are primarily responsible for Angel/Twilight and his death.
I just hope that Joss Whedon will bring in some info and statement about all the slayers that were killed.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 21 2010 10:21 pm #187ladycat713
Guest
I always thought Buffy's behavior in regards to Joyce and Giles was pretty shoddy and selfish (after Band Candy) because it would have been nice for them to have someone especially since one thing hampering thier romantic lives is thier knowledge of the supernatural world (can you imagine hiding the fact that your daughter is the Slayer and that vampires are real from a husband or long term boyfriend).
Her behavior in regards to Jenny was pretty self absorbed and cruel. Jenny was honoring a long standing family tradition and besides how the heck was she suppossed to know that sex with Buffy would make him experience perfect happiness?! Perfect happiness isn't an orgasm?! She might have thought that he would be kept from experienceing it by any added guilt tacked onto the spell (since he didn't appear to have a conscience while human) .
I maintain that the responsibility for that lay with Angel- he had plenty of time to find out the details and look for a way to anchor things which is something he declined to do even after he found out about the out clause in the spell and he was re ensouled. There was never any sign he even asked anyone how Spike got his anchored soul.
Spike's definitely the proof that there was a way, they didn't give us a timeline but it looked like a relatively short period of time between the time he left Sunnydale and when he got his soul. Not to mention he was back in Sunnydale for an unknown amount of time by the time season 7 started - so from decision to research add travel time - fighting time- travel time back to Sunnydale is less than 3 months. Angel has had years and has done nothing to anchor his soul.
Buffy and Angel's clueless cruelty in Amends was incredible. At the very least they should have figured out that he shouldn't go to Giles' home. She should have sit down next to Giles and said that she knew it was asking a lot but she needed his help because of the dreams Angel was having.
I think a lot of Spike's reception by Giles and the Scoobies had to do with backlash from Angel being pushed back on them . Angel killed Jenny and Dru killed Kendra on his orders , Willow was put in the hospital. The most personal damage done by Spike wasn't really done by him at all -Cordelia falling onto a spike because she was in the factory. I think without the Angel damage there would have been more than the one ill timed attempt at making him a white hat (right after the chip while he was still in the anger stage- Giles should've waited for acceptance).
Her behavior in regards to Jenny was pretty self absorbed and cruel. Jenny was honoring a long standing family tradition and besides how the heck was she suppossed to know that sex with Buffy would make him experience perfect happiness?! Perfect happiness isn't an orgasm?! She might have thought that he would be kept from experienceing it by any added guilt tacked onto the spell (since he didn't appear to have a conscience while human) .
I maintain that the responsibility for that lay with Angel- he had plenty of time to find out the details and look for a way to anchor things which is something he declined to do even after he found out about the out clause in the spell and he was re ensouled. There was never any sign he even asked anyone how Spike got his anchored soul.
Spike's definitely the proof that there was a way, they didn't give us a timeline but it looked like a relatively short period of time between the time he left Sunnydale and when he got his soul. Not to mention he was back in Sunnydale for an unknown amount of time by the time season 7 started - so from decision to research add travel time - fighting time- travel time back to Sunnydale is less than 3 months. Angel has had years and has done nothing to anchor his soul.
Buffy and Angel's clueless cruelty in Amends was incredible. At the very least they should have figured out that he shouldn't go to Giles' home. She should have sit down next to Giles and said that she knew it was asking a lot but she needed his help because of the dreams Angel was having.
I think a lot of Spike's reception by Giles and the Scoobies had to do with backlash from Angel being pushed back on them . Angel killed Jenny and Dru killed Kendra on his orders , Willow was put in the hospital. The most personal damage done by Spike wasn't really done by him at all -Cordelia falling onto a spike because she was in the factory. I think without the Angel damage there would have been more than the one ill timed attempt at making him a white hat (right after the chip while he was still in the anger stage- Giles should've waited for acceptance).
Dec 22 2010 06:50 pm #188ladycat713
Guest
It's a little off topic , but I was rereading Pandora's boxer by speakr2customers and it touched upon the episode where Spike escaped from the Initative (except in this it was Harmony) and the soldiers that showed up wanted to take Willow with them as well because they thought she might have been infected with vampirism. And these guys acted like they knew everything about the supernatural world yet they were going to kidnap Willow when anyone who had read or seen a Dracula movie eould know that she wasn't turned?! What was with that. I wanted Buffy to yell at Riley for trying that once she started dating him and found out he was one of them and point out how dumb it was to want to take Willow.
Dec 22 2010 09:57 pm #189SpaceLord
Guest
Just want to bring up the soul/soulless part, I have a vague memory of Giles stating that when a human is turned into a vampire the person dies and a demon takes over and Angel starts to say something about it not being entirely true but changes his mind and goes on to say yes that is true. I think this is in S2 but when I watched that episode again a while back it struck me that even from the beginning the vampire demon wasn't as clear as Giles wanted the gang to believe. I'm not sure if he knew better or just believed what he was saying.
Dec 23 2010 02:49 am #190ladycat713
Guest
In Dopplegangland Buffy was saying to Willow about the vampire replacing the person or something like that and Angel started to correct her but backed off when Buffy looked at him.
I think the orginal time the bit about it's not the person it's the thing that killed them was said was when Jesse was turned and Xander had to kill him in self defense . Xander's guilt over that probably damaged him quite a bit and it's been explored in a few fics .
I think the whole mythos basically is that it's a combination of the person's physical and or mental health (Spike's mother was terminally ill) and thier personality. Angel was a selfish human so he became a selfish vampire, Spike lived for love but he had to put on the tude to survive.
I think the orginal time the bit about it's not the person it's the thing that killed them was said was when Jesse was turned and Xander had to kill him in self defense . Xander's guilt over that probably damaged him quite a bit and it's been explored in a few fics .
I think the whole mythos basically is that it's a combination of the person's physical and or mental health (Spike's mother was terminally ill) and thier personality. Angel was a selfish human so he became a selfish vampire, Spike lived for love but he had to put on the tude to survive.
Buffy and Angel's clueless cruelty in Amends was incredible. At the very least they should have figured out that he shouldn't go to Giles' home. She should have sit down next to Giles and said that she knew it was asking a lot but she needed his help because of the dreams Angel was having.
Angel was pretty much out of control by the time he goes to Giles - one of the most dramatic and important parts of the episode is when Giles opens the door and find Angel at his door. Can't help but think of the "Angel of Death" at your door. Buffy Buffy and Angel this episode still has them dealing with being out of control - Angel from never having dealt with his physical attraction to this very young woman and Buffy being consumed by her love for him. She starts the episode with all her statements about "the control plan" and she ends up begging Angel to stay with her.
How cruel and tragic is it that Buffy back away from her total controlling bitch mode with Jenny and Giles and that this is what eventually brings Jenny and Giles to trying to get back together. I still can't get over how completely different viewers responded to this relationship when it aired and how even now so many fans still see Bangel as a Great Tragic Love.
Anyone reading the new Illyria mini-series? of all the Buffyverse and Angelverse comic books out currently, this one is, IMO, the best - Spike and Illyria are wonderful together. I will try to post some of the best visuals soon at Flickr.
Angel was pretty much out of control by the time he goes to Giles - one of the most dramatic and important parts of the episode is when Giles opens the door and find Angel at his door. Can't help but think of the "Angel of Death" at your door. Buffy Buffy and Angel this episode still has them dealing with being out of control - Angel from never having dealt with his physical attraction to this very young woman and Buffy being consumed by her love for him. She starts the episode with all her statements about "the control plan" and she ends up begging Angel to stay with her.
How cruel and tragic is it that Buffy back away from her total controlling bitch mode with Jenny and Giles and that this is what eventually brings Jenny and Giles to trying to get back together. I still can't get over how completely different viewers responded to this relationship when it aired and how even now so many fans still see Bangel as a Great Tragic Love.
Anyone reading the new Illyria mini-series? of all the Buffyverse and Angelverse comic books out currently, this one is, IMO, the best - Spike and Illyria are wonderful together. I will try to post some of the best visuals soon at Flickr.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 23 2010 01:22 pm #192ladycat713
Guest
I was never into Bangel. It made me think of these girls in high school who would write all over thier notebooks and go into hysterics over the slightest argument with thier boyfriends which is why it amazes me that anyone ever considers this to be a relationship that should've lasted beyond high school. I think they would have had this fizzle out (or have Angel become the guy you need a restraining order for) if Angel hadn't lost his soul then maybe Buffy wouldn't have built it up to be the love of her life in order to justify the body count.
You'd think that the incredibly creepy scene of the first time Angel saw Buffy would have turned off everyone. It basically screamed that Angel's entire search for redemption had to do more with his penis than genuine remorse. A little later on they added ego to the search. And there never seemed to be any real acknowledgement it was him . Only in one scene with Spike did he refer to himself as being the person who did something bad instead of saying Angelus.
You'd think that the incredibly creepy scene of the first time Angel saw Buffy would have turned off everyone. It basically screamed that Angel's entire search for redemption had to do more with his penis than genuine remorse. A little later on they added ego to the search. And there never seemed to be any real acknowledgement it was him . Only in one scene with Spike did he refer to himself as being the person who did something bad instead of saying Angelus.
Dec 30 2010 03:31 am #193ladycat713
Guest
I found this link in my email
http://www.jonessoda.com/buffygiveaway/
It's a link to a giveaway of the Buffy season 8 limited edition 6 pack of Jones soda . It's a daily entry until Jan 15.
Buffy with that lillipop and Angel going all "I love you at first sight" why not say "I wanted to help you with your pain and duty at first sight" - It was the entire attempt to separate Angel from Angelus that I could never accept - that is like trying to say that a drug addict is not created from the human that was originally clean of drugs - both are reflections of the same person. You don't have addict or criminal or broken individual without the connection to the earlier life.
If Buffy and Angel Forever existed in a real life manifestation Buffy would be considered emotionally and psychologically ill or as a person to be pitied - by a great many people she would be seen as pathetic. This is the impression that I was left with in "As You Were."
On another topic - here is the CBR Issue 40 Joss Whedon season finale: http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2011/01/exclusive-preview-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-40/
nmcil
If Buffy and Angel Forever existed in a real life manifestation Buffy would be considered emotionally and psychologically ill or as a person to be pitied - by a great many people she would be seen as pathetic. This is the impression that I was left with in "As You Were."
On another topic - here is the CBR Issue 40 Joss Whedon season finale: http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2011/01/exclusive-preview-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-40/
nmcil
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 03 2011 07:16 pm #195ladycat713
Guest
Buffy running after the Riley the way she did when he left was pretty pathetic too. I actually threw my remote at the tv when I saw that.
And what does it say about Buffy that the first two men she was with were sexual sadists of a sort (Parker gave me the impression he enjoyed humilating her more than the sex and Angel was a rapist and torturer) , Riley cheated on her and blamed her and with the next two she was with she was the sadistic one, physically and emotionally with Spike and emotionally with Satsu (the way she slept with and gave hope to her by having sex with her and then ignored her later after promoting her was cruel) .
If you identify yourself as straight and them sleep with someone of the same sex who has been taught that you are a hero and therefore not the type to use someone for sex then you are giving them hope that thier feelings will be returned.
And what does it say about Buffy that the first two men she was with were sexual sadists of a sort (Parker gave me the impression he enjoyed humilating her more than the sex and Angel was a rapist and torturer) , Riley cheated on her and blamed her and with the next two she was with she was the sadistic one, physically and emotionally with Spike and emotionally with Satsu (the way she slept with and gave hope to her by having sex with her and then ignored her later after promoting her was cruel) .
If you identify yourself as straight and them sleep with someone of the same sex who has been taught that you are a hero and therefore not the type to use someone for sex then you are giving them hope that thier feelings will be returned.
Jan 04 2011 08:40 pm #196hann23
Guest
Hi all,
I saw the CBR, and I saw the Jeanty interview about #40. Loads of Spike references. Seems like he gets a nice scene at least. But of course my defense went up because I so don't trust Whedon with Spuffy of any kind. It's over at slayalive.
Loved Illyria thus far. Love the conversation she had with Spike about love. It's awesome.
I actually do get Bangel as first love. That's about it. My take is he left, he didn't try to magic his way out of the happy clause even when he had the WHOLE staff of W&H at his disposal. So that says alot. Really? You love somebody and you run away?
Spike even hid. I think Whedon has a real messed up opinion about love and stuff. WatIching firefly on ovation. There's a happily married couple on it. Guessing one of them bites it. Don't tell. me.
I saw the CBR, and I saw the Jeanty interview about #40. Loads of Spike references. Seems like he gets a nice scene at least. But of course my defense went up because I so don't trust Whedon with Spuffy of any kind. It's over at slayalive.
Loved Illyria thus far. Love the conversation she had with Spike about love. It's awesome.
I actually do get Bangel as first love. That's about it. My take is he left, he didn't try to magic his way out of the happy clause even when he had the WHOLE staff of W&H at his disposal. So that says alot. Really? You love somebody and you run away?
Spike even hid. I think Whedon has a real messed up opinion about love and stuff. WatIching firefly on ovation. There's a happily married couple on it. Guessing one of them bites it. Don't tell. me.
Jan 05 2011 02:53 am #197ladycat713
Guest
I actually get Spike staying away from Buffy .
Her actions not only didn't give him hope but gave him every reason to think she care that he was alive (thier reuinion in the comics plays into that) . He died wearing an amulet that she wouldn't let Angel wear after seeing her immediately jump into Angel's arms. For all intents and purposes , it appears that she sent Angel away to keep him safe and chose Spike to die in his place. Her actions in season 8 support that.
She only seems to miss Spike in a sexual fashion and soon replaces him with someone else who is in love with her and tosses her to the side when she was done with her just like she did Spike. She instantly forgives Angel for all the Slayers he killed and has sex with him and nearly ends the world because of him. .
Angel had every reason to believe he was welcome with Buffy , Spike had none. Yet he did nothing to secure his soul and go back to her. It seems that she was merely a possession to him to be picked up when he was ready to use her or to reinforce his position over her when someone else showed interest.I don't think Angel loves Buffy any more than he loves Dru.
I don't trust Whedon with Spuffy either.
In the spoiler panel someone posted at a different site that the what did you expect was said by Kennedy and from the looks of it it refers to what Buffy's experiencing and what's happening with Willow and Kennedy. It looks like maybe the remaining Slayers are ticked at Buffy because that one girl kicked Buffy so that she tripped and Buffy was thinking that there were a lot of clumsy people there especially girls. Quite frankly what did you expect is a good answer to Buffy's situation. She's to blame for a lot of death and destruction. If tripping is the level of thier retaliation then she's getting off light .
Her actions not only didn't give him hope but gave him every reason to think she care that he was alive (thier reuinion in the comics plays into that) . He died wearing an amulet that she wouldn't let Angel wear after seeing her immediately jump into Angel's arms. For all intents and purposes , it appears that she sent Angel away to keep him safe and chose Spike to die in his place. Her actions in season 8 support that.
She only seems to miss Spike in a sexual fashion and soon replaces him with someone else who is in love with her and tosses her to the side when she was done with her just like she did Spike. She instantly forgives Angel for all the Slayers he killed and has sex with him and nearly ends the world because of him. .
Angel had every reason to believe he was welcome with Buffy , Spike had none. Yet he did nothing to secure his soul and go back to her. It seems that she was merely a possession to him to be picked up when he was ready to use her or to reinforce his position over her when someone else showed interest.I don't think Angel loves Buffy any more than he loves Dru.
I don't trust Whedon with Spuffy either.
In the spoiler panel someone posted at a different site that the what did you expect was said by Kennedy and from the looks of it it refers to what Buffy's experiencing and what's happening with Willow and Kennedy. It looks like maybe the remaining Slayers are ticked at Buffy because that one girl kicked Buffy so that she tripped and Buffy was thinking that there were a lot of clumsy people there especially girls. Quite frankly what did you expect is a good answer to Buffy's situation. She's to blame for a lot of death and destruction. If tripping is the level of thier retaliation then she's getting off light .
It's very hard for me to make out what the intent of Season 8 is - was it to finally set Buffy free of her emotional trauma and life connection to Angel/Angelus? Clearly Giles believed that even after all that has been lived through and all the destruction that Angel/Twangel has helped bring about - Buffy is still committed to the position that this is Angel and he is to be saved. Is Buffy mentally ill or becoming a Saint? The relationship between Buffy and Angel/Twangel is so disturbing, everything about it, unless you insist on looking at life through some strange extreme "unconditional love" or "love conquers all" is based on extreme violence, death and deception.
I refuse to believe that the Scott Allie and Joss Whedon think that beating up on women, violating a person's mind, killing thousands of people in the name of "the greater good" and basically having Buffy so emotionally crippled that she would fall into the arms of her enemy that has been killing and destroying her Slayers and other people all through the series. And that preview image of Angel with his "did we win" lunacy - are we really suppose to "forgive and forget" all the events and consequences from the choices made and paths taken by these characters.
After today's horrors and killings done "in the name of the greater good" - how can anyone divorce themselves from the thematic material surrounding Angel/Twangel's moral and ethical choices. Some fans will say, "please, this is not about real life, it's a work of fiction" - but I say bullshit - the Buffyverse was structured to engage the fans and now readers about their own lives and society.
I refuse to believe that the Scott Allie and Joss Whedon think that beating up on women, violating a person's mind, killing thousands of people in the name of "the greater good" and basically having Buffy so emotionally crippled that she would fall into the arms of her enemy that has been killing and destroying her Slayers and other people all through the series. And that preview image of Angel with his "did we win" lunacy - are we really suppose to "forgive and forget" all the events and consequences from the choices made and paths taken by these characters.
After today's horrors and killings done "in the name of the greater good" - how can anyone divorce themselves from the thematic material surrounding Angel/Twangel's moral and ethical choices. Some fans will say, "please, this is not about real life, it's a work of fiction" - but I say bullshit - the Buffyverse was structured to engage the fans and now readers about their own lives and society.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I am posting this item here since it brings in the topic of "forgiveness" as one of the top rated elements of the Buffyverse - considering the events surrounding Season 8, I think that the theme of "forgiveness" is really being tested with the Angel/Twangel. Buffy is also placed in a very negative place with the treatment since the Brad Meltzer cycle.
What are your thoughts about the theme of "forgiveness" - it was certainly one of Buffy's most powerful attributes - this ability to forgive. What about Angel/Twangel in Season 8? What are some of the ways that the character can come back - since he will have his own comic book with Dark Horse, we know that the character will not simply go away never to be seen or heard from again.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 20 2011 10:10 pm #200SpaceLord
Guest
Well now I've read the final issue of season 8 and must say the whole thing does not impress me at all.
Nothing really resolved and Angel doing his "ohhh I'm so sorry now"
Don't want to spoil too much for people so I'll not mention anything else.
Nothing really resolved and Angel doing his "ohhh I'm so sorry now"
Don't want to spoil too much for people so I'll not mention anything else.
Jan 21 2011 02:11 am #201Spikez_tart
ohhh I'm so sorry now - OMG does no one have a stake for this meathead???
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 21 2011 06:47 pm #202coalitiongirl
Really? I thought it was amazing, probably the best issue of the season.
(Spoilers ahead)
Angel's doing his "sorry now" while he's locked in a room alone with only Faith helping, because no one else will speak to him. Buffy can't even *look* at him anymore. Shame, since during these past few issues he's been raped, both in the traditional sense and in the sense that, while attempting to atone for his past misdeeds, his body was stolen from him and forced to kill Giles. We don't blame Cordy for killing Lilah or unleashing the Beast, do we? But Angel's left with no support system after a very similar situation. It's a tragic story, really.
Anyway, there's some wonderful characterization and getting back to the basics of relationships and "one girl" in this issue, not to mention a Spuffy scene I'd rank among my top ten of the entire Buffyverse and a letter from Joss Whedon in which he admits that he messed up with this season and will return to the original mission of the Buffyverse next one.
Download links are here, and here is a review, plus links to many others.
(Spoilers ahead)
Angel's doing his "sorry now" while he's locked in a room alone with only Faith helping, because no one else will speak to him. Buffy can't even *look* at him anymore. Shame, since during these past few issues he's been raped, both in the traditional sense and in the sense that, while attempting to atone for his past misdeeds, his body was stolen from him and forced to kill Giles. We don't blame Cordy for killing Lilah or unleashing the Beast, do we? But Angel's left with no support system after a very similar situation. It's a tragic story, really.
Anyway, there's some wonderful characterization and getting back to the basics of relationships and "one girl" in this issue, not to mention a Spuffy scene I'd rank among my top ten of the entire Buffyverse and a letter from Joss Whedon in which he admits that he messed up with this season and will return to the original mission of the Buffyverse next one.
Download links are here, and here is a review, plus links to many others.
Jan 21 2011 09:15 pm #203CM
Guest
EW has a short article in the current mag:
The acclaimed (oc)cult TV show Buffy the Vampire Slayer went off the air in 2003 after seven seasons. But for nearly four years, Buffy's story has lived on in creator Joss Whedon's "Season 8" comic book series, which finished its 40-issue run Jan. 19. Whoa, boy, did things go down. (Warning: Spoilers follow.) Buffy became a god, warred with her ex Angel, and watched him kill mentor Giles. And then she effectively destroyed the seed of all magic on earth.
Whedon tells EW exclusively that Buffy "Season 9" should debut in the fall, and that the end-to-magic twist was an attempt to get back to basics. "I got very excited when I had a comic book with the idea that I could do absolutely anything," he says. "We just sort of said, 'Wheee!' Ultimately, 'Wheee!' caught up with us in a cavalcade of mythology. It became clear that people really liked when Buffy's adventures reflect what we're going through in our lives at that age. Not a lot of people are leading armies."
To that end, expect Buffy to face more human-scale drama, while her BFF Willow obsesses over trying to get her magical powers back in her own comic miniseries. In fact, the end of "Season 8" tees up a series of Buffyverse comic books through publisher Dark Horse, including a new title about Angel. And all of this is going on while Whedon preps to direct the mega Marvel movie The Avengers. "I haven't worked this hard since I had three shows on the air," he laughs.
How does he feel about the recently anounced plans for a Buffy reboot movie without his involvement? "It doesn't not offend me," he admits. "But the fact that Buffy has made enough of a mark that somebody would want to do that speaks well of the work we did. I'm more just curious. After they rebooted Spider Man - which genuinely shocked me - something like this really doesn't."
Written by Adam B. Vary
The acclaimed (oc)cult TV show Buffy the Vampire Slayer went off the air in 2003 after seven seasons. But for nearly four years, Buffy's story has lived on in creator Joss Whedon's "Season 8" comic book series, which finished its 40-issue run Jan. 19. Whoa, boy, did things go down. (Warning: Spoilers follow.) Buffy became a god, warred with her ex Angel, and watched him kill mentor Giles. And then she effectively destroyed the seed of all magic on earth.
Whedon tells EW exclusively that Buffy "Season 9" should debut in the fall, and that the end-to-magic twist was an attempt to get back to basics. "I got very excited when I had a comic book with the idea that I could do absolutely anything," he says. "We just sort of said, 'Wheee!' Ultimately, 'Wheee!' caught up with us in a cavalcade of mythology. It became clear that people really liked when Buffy's adventures reflect what we're going through in our lives at that age. Not a lot of people are leading armies."
To that end, expect Buffy to face more human-scale drama, while her BFF Willow obsesses over trying to get her magical powers back in her own comic miniseries. In fact, the end of "Season 8" tees up a series of Buffyverse comic books through publisher Dark Horse, including a new title about Angel. And all of this is going on while Whedon preps to direct the mega Marvel movie The Avengers. "I haven't worked this hard since I had three shows on the air," he laughs.
How does he feel about the recently anounced plans for a Buffy reboot movie without his involvement? "It doesn't not offend me," he admits. "But the fact that Buffy has made enough of a mark that somebody would want to do that speaks well of the work we did. I'm more just curious. After they rebooted Spider Man - which genuinely shocked me - something like this really doesn't."
Written by Adam B. Vary
Jan 21 2011 11:07 pm #204SpaceLord
Guest
coalitiongirl I hardly think willingly becoming the leader of a group of people that is set out to kill slayers and anyone associated with them and then having sex to create a new universe while the old one is destroyed is something Angel can blame someone else for, sure they couldn't have him kill Giles personally cause that would be too damaging to his character but let's face it after the space sex he wasn't too keen on going back when they ended up in Twilight. He seemed perfectly happy to let everybody die, it was only in the last 2 issues he was taken over before that it was all Angel and his God complex.
Jan 22 2011 08:02 pm #205ladycat713
Guest
That letter from Joss is long overdue. Why couldn't he have seen a long time ago that season 8 was a train that needed to be derailed , repaired and put on the right track.
Something should have told them to screech to a halt at the latest when the only thing that showed up of Spike in the dreamspace was a threesome fantasy of the two of them and Angel. The guy died saving the world , she should at least have had something like the image of him burning up or maybe one of speeches like in Touched or Lover's Walk even if she felt nothing personal for him sacrifice should have made a non sexual impression.
Something should have told them to screech to a halt at the latest when the only thing that showed up of Spike in the dreamspace was a threesome fantasy of the two of them and Angel. The guy died saving the world , she should at least have had something like the image of him burning up or maybe one of speeches like in Touched or Lover's Walk even if she felt nothing personal for him sacrifice should have made a non sexual impression.
Jan 22 2011 08:05 pm #206ladycat713
Guest
edit to above
after him it should say His sacrifice should have made a non sexual impression that they could use. Sure the guy's sex on a stick but the reason people love him goes beyond that.
after him it should say His sacrifice should have made a non sexual impression that they could use. Sure the guy's sex on a stick but the reason people love him goes beyond that.
Jan 23 2011 12:24 am #207coalitiongirl
@spacelord Did I miss the part in the comic when he blamed someone else?
Angel's trying to atone- he's been trying to atone since he returned from Twilight and was again confronted with the result of his actions, back in #36. And no, I don't think he should be blamed for having that sex when even Buffy calls it "boinking Twilight" in this past issue. He's far from blameless in his earlier actions, and he's paying the price now, an outcast for bad decisions that resulted in villainy. But he's both a victim and a repenting hero, and I think that's a necessary detail that's being overlooked here.
@ladycat
I don't think Buffy *owes* Spike fantasies, though we did get a nice collection of them in #37. I agree that perhaps it would have been wise to include some, but it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Spuffy the Vampire and Slayer, and in this season in particular Spike wouldn't be relevant to Buffy's dreamscape.
IMO, the season really jumped the shark in #33, when Angel pulled off that mask. I hate the fact that the writers had to resort to sensationalism in order to sell comics when Twilight had a far more significant potential than just that of betrayal. I do like that they attempted to return to that theme in #40, though, at least giving the season a valid overall theme (even if it was too little, too late...)
Angel's trying to atone- he's been trying to atone since he returned from Twilight and was again confronted with the result of his actions, back in #36. And no, I don't think he should be blamed for having that sex when even Buffy calls it "boinking Twilight" in this past issue. He's far from blameless in his earlier actions, and he's paying the price now, an outcast for bad decisions that resulted in villainy. But he's both a victim and a repenting hero, and I think that's a necessary detail that's being overlooked here.
@ladycat
I don't think Buffy *owes* Spike fantasies, though we did get a nice collection of them in #37. I agree that perhaps it would have been wise to include some, but it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Spuffy the Vampire and Slayer, and in this season in particular Spike wouldn't be relevant to Buffy's dreamscape.
IMO, the season really jumped the shark in #33, when Angel pulled off that mask. I hate the fact that the writers had to resort to sensationalism in order to sell comics when Twilight had a far more significant potential than just that of betrayal. I do like that they attempted to return to that theme in #40, though, at least giving the season a valid overall theme (even if it was too little, too late...)
Jan 23 2011 04:17 pm #208ladycat713
Guest
I didn't say Spike was owed a fantasies. I said considering he died saving the world couldn't she have had a non sexual image of him in her dreamspace .
He fought by her side a lot more than Angel (and a lot of Angel was cryptic warnings) and died saving the world while Angel was easily persuaded to leave. And given what a powerful image him burning up was you would think it would stick. That was the only image of Spike in her dreamspace while I'm pretty sure Angel had more . I didn't really like the Angel sexual image either but I'm pretty sure there were more pictures of him (I don't want to look to find out) not to mention he really wasn't much more than sex, cryptic warnings and leaving. He really did nothing positive to her life. He didn't even try to revive her when the Master killed her. The vampires have no breath was a bad excuse.Vampires don't need to breathe , they have breath or they wouldn't be able to talk or smoke. In fact a vampires breath would probab;y work better since they wouldn't convert oxygen to carbon dioxide.
He fought by her side a lot more than Angel (and a lot of Angel was cryptic warnings) and died saving the world while Angel was easily persuaded to leave. And given what a powerful image him burning up was you would think it would stick. That was the only image of Spike in her dreamspace while I'm pretty sure Angel had more . I didn't really like the Angel sexual image either but I'm pretty sure there were more pictures of him (I don't want to look to find out) not to mention he really wasn't much more than sex, cryptic warnings and leaving. He really did nothing positive to her life. He didn't even try to revive her when the Master killed her. The vampires have no breath was a bad excuse.Vampires don't need to breathe , they have breath or they wouldn't be able to talk or smoke. In fact a vampires breath would probab;y work better since they wouldn't convert oxygen to carbon dioxide.
Jan 25 2011 09:22 pm #209SpaceLord
Guest
@Coalitiongirl
Yeah and Adolf Hitler is was just as much a repenting hero, with heroes like Angel who the hell needs bad guys? It comes a time when making bad decisions time and time again just stops being an excuse and no he's not a repenting hero is a complete tosser that should be thrown in a dark hole to make sure he doesn't try to save the world again because the next time he might succeed and the world goes to hell.
Angel is the type of hero that can justify anything if it corresponds with his personal objectives, I just feel they took it way over the top in the comics but really he was pretty much the same on the show.
And by the way how much is Angel to be blamed according to you? Obviously not the space sex, is he to blame for becoming Twilight and having all those slayers killed? Do you blame a junkie for something they do under the influence or an alcoholic?
I think he should do the samurai thing and just end his life for the sake of all humanity.
Yeah and Adolf Hitler is was just as much a repenting hero, with heroes like Angel who the hell needs bad guys? It comes a time when making bad decisions time and time again just stops being an excuse and no he's not a repenting hero is a complete tosser that should be thrown in a dark hole to make sure he doesn't try to save the world again because the next time he might succeed and the world goes to hell.
Angel is the type of hero that can justify anything if it corresponds with his personal objectives, I just feel they took it way over the top in the comics but really he was pretty much the same on the show.
And by the way how much is Angel to be blamed according to you? Obviously not the space sex, is he to blame for becoming Twilight and having all those slayers killed? Do you blame a junkie for something they do under the influence or an alcoholic?
I think he should do the samurai thing and just end his life for the sake of all humanity.
Jan 25 2011 10:50 pm #210BandS
Guest
@Spacelord
AMEN! And can I hug you? Everything you write here, just makes me jump for joy! No matter how many times I have said this, dislike for Angel asside, but you can attone so much. How many get out jail cards do you get before it makes it right? How many killings, and mistakes does one get to let that slide?
HE killed Giles. He continuously makes excuses then states he is attoning? Attoning my a**!!!!! Sorry not going to buy that, and @coalitiongirl, I know you love Angel just as much as the rest of the characters (I believe you have said as much), but when does it stop? He keeps getting into these situations and digging himself further than six feet under and yet we just brush it off and pat him on the back and say 'oh, you were being used in the great scheme of things, you weren't wrong, keep atoning and we will forget you killed those Slayers, and oh, yeah...Giles.' You are my hero!
Okay that was way sarcastic (sorry), I know, because I have the greatest revulsion ever for Angel. I don't and will never get his greatness...ever. I think the hero here at most throughout Season 8 was Xander...and that's saying a lot. Here is a guy who doesn't have a super power and puts himself out there. That's a hero. He may have had his faults and mistakes, but I think I finally got him in Season 8...he tried and did his best and I swear I place him in the same category as Spike. Besides Spike, I'd definitely say Xander changed and for the best! Huh, imagine me saying that! LOL
Totally forgot my password so I didn't sign in LOL! Yes it's been awhile...busy life!
AMEN! And can I hug you? Everything you write here, just makes me jump for joy! No matter how many times I have said this, dislike for Angel asside, but you can attone so much. How many get out jail cards do you get before it makes it right? How many killings, and mistakes does one get to let that slide?
HE killed Giles. He continuously makes excuses then states he is attoning? Attoning my a**!!!!! Sorry not going to buy that, and @coalitiongirl, I know you love Angel just as much as the rest of the characters (I believe you have said as much), but when does it stop? He keeps getting into these situations and digging himself further than six feet under and yet we just brush it off and pat him on the back and say 'oh, you were being used in the great scheme of things, you weren't wrong, keep atoning and we will forget you killed those Slayers, and oh, yeah...Giles.' You are my hero!
Okay that was way sarcastic (sorry), I know, because I have the greatest revulsion ever for Angel. I don't and will never get his greatness...ever. I think the hero here at most throughout Season 8 was Xander...and that's saying a lot. Here is a guy who doesn't have a super power and puts himself out there. That's a hero. He may have had his faults and mistakes, but I think I finally got him in Season 8...he tried and did his best and I swear I place him in the same category as Spike. Besides Spike, I'd definitely say Xander changed and for the best! Huh, imagine me saying that! LOL
Totally forgot my password so I didn't sign in LOL! Yes it's been awhile...busy life!
I really liked the development of Xander in S8 - and the Xander-Dawn relationship. Very happy that they did survive the great battle and I was glad to see them living with Buffy and helping her through this terrible time. The Xander-Dawn love arc is one of the few things that I liked in the series. Giles and Faith working together and seeing their relationship go from "Faith will doing the needed killing for us" to working together as partners, Faith finally having redemption from how she treated him in the earlier seasons. Why did he name Faith as his full beneficiary of his estate? Big surprise - I wonder if part of that will come out in Season 9 with Faith taking over the charge of some of the Slayers. It's such a strange plot move, that I expect it will have significance in the future. It must have hurt not only Buffy but all the inner circle from Sunnydale.
Regarding Angel/Twangel - I am still surprised that Dark Horse and Joss Whedon expect that readers and fans would easily accept the "controlled by outside forces" with the scale of damage and destruction that was presented with the Angel/Twangel "The Plan-Buffy Protector" premise and treatment. For me, it's so much about the magnitude of damages. I am having a very hard time thinking of Angel and forgiveness just now. I feel like I am being asked to forgive and accept back a mass murderer. This is not like Spike and Angel/Angelus being vampires and killing all those people in their past. This is just so different, I can't even explain how all this killing is different, it just is.
I've seen a lot of negative comments regarding the Buffy-Spike panels - would love to read some thoughts on their sequence.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 26 2011 04:36 pm #212ps
Guest
Personally, I don't think you give up on anybody trying to better themselves, no matter how many times they mess up. As for making the possession excuse work, well look how many people excused and forgave Xander for his attempted rape of Buffy while possessed by the hyena. Angel as Twilight doesn't work for me. Angel has developed far beyond the broody loner vamp obsessed with Buffy to fit this role. I know IDW is writing, as a favor to Joss, Angel's descent into Twilight, but from the series and the comics to date, he does not fit this role. If I were IDW, I'd have Angel get his redemption and move to a higher plane to live happily with Cordy, let DH figure out how to make him Twilight. Since they decided early on to kill Giles, it would have been more powerful and emotional to have Twilight revealed as Hank Summers. Buffy would have been in a true no win situation.
I too liked Xander's development. We started seeing it in S7 and I'm glad they continued it in S8. But it looks like he's going to become the asshole again, since Scott Allie said in an interview that Xander doesn't want Spike in his apartment, that's why there's no invite. Considering how many times Spike lived with Xander, and that in S7 Xander tolerated Spike for Buffy's sake, that doesn't make sense. Dawn not wanting him to have an invite would make sense since that's a relationship that was never reconciled. I haven't read the negative comments about Spike-Buffy, so don't know how to answer. Buffy seemed brattier than what we saw in S7, but I don't think she's ready to forgive herself yet, so doesn't want to hear Spike forgive her. I don't like that Spike's popping in, giving her cryptic warnings then taking off. Too Angel like. And is he going to ride around in that spaceship all the time or is he going to get his Viper back.
I thought Giles' will was a slap in the face to Buffy, one last betrayal for the road. I've read people putting a pretty face on it by saying "Oh, he gave each of them what they needed." To me it was more like "here Buffy. Read this and maybe you'll get it right next time. Kill vampires, don't ally yourself with them or sleep with them." And does Buffy really need to be stuck in a low paying, dead end job and sleeping on Xander/Dawn's couch because she has no home, while Faith has 2 homes.
Joss says in his letter that S8 was necessary to get to Fray verse. Is Fray verse worth the destruction of the Angel and Buffy verses, the ruination of Buffy's and Angel's characters and the death of Giles? Not to me it's not.
Lastly, I'm one of the hateful reactionary blowbacks that Joss talks about, but I found the message of S8 to be the most regressive, disgusting and demeaning to women that I've seen since the days when men were found not guilty of rape by claiming a woman asked for it by the way she dressed. Apparently, too many powerful women in the world goes against the natural order to such an extent the universe becomes a sentient being and recruits a man to help it. The man lies to and manipulates the strongest woman. He physically, emotionally and mentally abuses the woman for her own good and to eventually make her stronger. Then when the women is at her lowest, he has sex with her, and she becomes a sperm depository to birth a new universe. Although the new universe, their child, is perfect in every way, the strong woman turns her back on her child and abandons it because she loves others more than her child. What were they thinking?
I too liked Xander's development. We started seeing it in S7 and I'm glad they continued it in S8. But it looks like he's going to become the asshole again, since Scott Allie said in an interview that Xander doesn't want Spike in his apartment, that's why there's no invite. Considering how many times Spike lived with Xander, and that in S7 Xander tolerated Spike for Buffy's sake, that doesn't make sense. Dawn not wanting him to have an invite would make sense since that's a relationship that was never reconciled. I haven't read the negative comments about Spike-Buffy, so don't know how to answer. Buffy seemed brattier than what we saw in S7, but I don't think she's ready to forgive herself yet, so doesn't want to hear Spike forgive her. I don't like that Spike's popping in, giving her cryptic warnings then taking off. Too Angel like. And is he going to ride around in that spaceship all the time or is he going to get his Viper back.
I thought Giles' will was a slap in the face to Buffy, one last betrayal for the road. I've read people putting a pretty face on it by saying "Oh, he gave each of them what they needed." To me it was more like "here Buffy. Read this and maybe you'll get it right next time. Kill vampires, don't ally yourself with them or sleep with them." And does Buffy really need to be stuck in a low paying, dead end job and sleeping on Xander/Dawn's couch because she has no home, while Faith has 2 homes.
Joss says in his letter that S8 was necessary to get to Fray verse. Is Fray verse worth the destruction of the Angel and Buffy verses, the ruination of Buffy's and Angel's characters and the death of Giles? Not to me it's not.
Lastly, I'm one of the hateful reactionary blowbacks that Joss talks about, but I found the message of S8 to be the most regressive, disgusting and demeaning to women that I've seen since the days when men were found not guilty of rape by claiming a woman asked for it by the way she dressed. Apparently, too many powerful women in the world goes against the natural order to such an extent the universe becomes a sentient being and recruits a man to help it. The man lies to and manipulates the strongest woman. He physically, emotionally and mentally abuses the woman for her own good and to eventually make her stronger. Then when the women is at her lowest, he has sex with her, and she becomes a sperm depository to birth a new universe. Although the new universe, their child, is perfect in every way, the strong woman turns her back on her child and abandons it because she loves others more than her child. What were they thinking?
Jan 27 2011 03:10 am #213Spikez_tart
how many people excused and forgave Xander for his attempted rape of Buffy while possessed by the hyena - Yeah, but Xander only did that once. Angel is always coming and going and repenting and killing and back and forth. This was really the last straw for me. Why doesn't Spike take him to the basement and give him the three week and you're better cure. I'm sick of the whole ANGEL IS REDEEMING HIMSELF arc. Get over it dude.
What happened to Angel loving Cordy? I can sort of see Buffy, she was always dreaming about the one who got away, but I thought the oh so mature Angel was above all that.
What happened to Angel loving Cordy? I can sort of see Buffy, she was always dreaming about the one who got away, but I thought the oh so mature Angel was above all that.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 27 2011 05:44 am #214ps
Guest
I didn't want to debate the pros and cons of the Xander possession story. I gave the Xander possession as an example of why the PTB's (Joss, Scott, the writers, etc.) might feel it was all right to use Angel in this way and afterwards everything would be fine. If it worked for Xander, it will work for Angel. As I recall, Angel has only been possessed the one time also. And he and Xander have both screwed up in their lives. While Xander's screw ups tend to be on a smaller scale and more human related, he has gotten people killed. Angel's screw up are more spectacular and have lead to the potential end of the world and they have gotten people killed.
What the PTB's should have remembered was what happened with Cordy. She had sex with Connor while she was possessed and the audience rebelled because it reeked of incest and pedophilia. So they killed off Cordy and had her become a higher being. I do believe that Cordy was a much better match for Angel than Buffy and that he did love Cordy.
The redemption story is boring especially when it has been repeated ad nauseum . In my opinion, Angel is no longer a viable character and I'll be surprised if his comic is successful. If Buffy can't even look at Angel, how did Joss think the audience was going to react to Angel being Twilight and to Giles being killed by Angel.
What the PTB's should have remembered was what happened with Cordy. She had sex with Connor while she was possessed and the audience rebelled because it reeked of incest and pedophilia. So they killed off Cordy and had her become a higher being. I do believe that Cordy was a much better match for Angel than Buffy and that he did love Cordy.
The redemption story is boring especially when it has been repeated ad nauseum . In my opinion, Angel is no longer a viable character and I'll be surprised if his comic is successful. If Buffy can't even look at Angel, how did Joss think the audience was going to react to Angel being Twilight and to Giles being killed by Angel.
Jan 27 2011 09:24 am #215ladycat713
Guest
Even if you ignore the Hyena possession for Xander there is the singing demon episode. Xander asked early on if the singing and dancing were related to the burning and was told yes and yet still didn't say anything about the amulet . Judging by the amount of firetrucks seen and heard in the background there were a considerable amount of people burning up then. There's no possession excuse for that especially when you consider that a guy engaged to a vengeance demon should know better than to mess with amulets.
And Angel's redemption is boring. It's been repeated so often we yawn hearing about. Plus there's the fact that he doesn't seem to actively do anything about it except fighting . I would have found his redemtion much more believable if he'd just once sought out a way to anchor his soul so he wouldn't be so much of a threat to people around him. Or if he'd realized he was a threat to his son and that Wesley was right in believing that Connor needing protecting from him (his blame of Wesley was hypocritical). Or maybe if he'd swallowed his pride and asked Spike how he got his soul (or even sneakily asked Wesley to ask Spike saying he was asking because he was curious) .
Or if he'd admitted that whole two seperate persons was for the most part a crock (there might be exceptions for instance William's mother was physically weak so she might have been nothing but demon either that or she was trying to get him to dust her) . The ep with the Judge proved that losing your soul doesn't mean losing your humanity since Dalton, Dru and Spike had humanity , Angel didn't .Darla said something along the lines of What you are determines what you become.
And yes Cordy was a much better match for Angel. He got off his high horse with her. Not to mention that ep with him being drugged proved that she is much better at stopping him than Buffy. Cordy also matured where Buffy didn't .
People point out the ep where's Angel's fantasy made him lose his soul as proof he was thinking of Buffy because he said Buffy when he lost his soul. I always thought he said that because he was with Buffy the last time he lost his soul . It was his fantasy , if he wanted to be with Buffy he could have been with Buffy not Cordy.
The thing about that fantasy, is that it is just that- Angel's perfect fantasy conjured to give him perfect happiness. The thing about it? It was whatever it took for Angel to lose his soul. Had it been Buffy, he would have drempt that it was Buffy there, not Cordelia.
Speaking of Queen C, I'm just wondering, in a different world, if Angel revealed himself to be Twilight to her, how do you think she'd react? Personally, I don't see her jumping into space sex...I quite see violence and condemnation on her part. But that might just my take on her character.
And on the is Angel at fault or not, he's not directly responsible for Giles's death because he WAS poessessed (which is overused), but that doesn't mean he's not indirectly responsible. It was his choosing to go with the Universe's plan that eventually led to Giles's death. Angel bears responisiblity, and he really can't get out of it. I'm not saying he can't be redeemed, but it'll take a hell of a lot. No, hell of a lot is an understatement.
Speaking of Queen C, I'm just wondering, in a different world, if Angel revealed himself to be Twilight to her, how do you think she'd react? Personally, I don't see her jumping into space sex...I quite see violence and condemnation on her part. But that might just my take on her character.
And on the is Angel at fault or not, he's not directly responsible for Giles's death because he WAS poessessed (which is overused), but that doesn't mean he's not indirectly responsible. It was his choosing to go with the Universe's plan that eventually led to Giles's death. Angel bears responisiblity, and he really can't get out of it. I'm not saying he can't be redeemed, but it'll take a hell of a lot. No, hell of a lot is an understatement.
~ Niori ~
Jan 27 2011 10:39 pm #217ladycat713
Guest
I think Cordy would have slugged him dead in the face and then kicked him in the balls. Not to mention she would have been a much better choice to lead an army. She probably would have had Willow hack into the council's accoounts to get money instead of having them robbing banks.
One thing people forget is that Cordelia came from being pretty much the same type of personality as Buffy in the beginning. Cordy however proved to be more independant once things went bad for her and a great deal more practical. Good example of thier differences there was an Angel ep where the bad guys were killed and there was a breifcase full of cash left behind. Angel wanted to leave it because of where it came from (bad guys) , Cordy pointed out that he had bills to pay and a baby to support (I would have loved to have had Cordy find out Angel had some Angelus accounts squirreled away and make him get the money and talk him into it by pointing out they could help more people if they weren't put out of business because they couldn't pay the bills) .
Buffy OTOH instead of having Willow hack into the accounts (possibly magically assisted) took girls to rob a bank, not only committing a crime but teaching all those girls that might makes right and planting a seed of corruption.
What makes Cordy and Spike good matches for Angel and Buffy is the fact that both are practical and have common sense. Sure Spike was a fool for love but he told her he could get money and it was the day to day that completely screwed her up. If he'd been around he probably would have suggested that Willow hack into the accounts and figure out how the council made money all those years . Also both Cordy and Spike are very strong willed where Buffy and Angel are weak willed.. Sure Spike spent time depressed in the basement after he got his soul but he pulled himself together and soldiered on to help even though along with the new soul he had the First Evil tormenting him. Angel OTOH hand spent decades being pretty much useless including the time he spent with Buffy. It was only once he left her in LA that he made an effort.
I'd love to read an AU where Cordy didn't die and really did wake up and how it would effect events all the way through season 8. Things would definitely change for the better.
One thing people forget is that Cordelia came from being pretty much the same type of personality as Buffy in the beginning. Cordy however proved to be more independant once things went bad for her and a great deal more practical. Good example of thier differences there was an Angel ep where the bad guys were killed and there was a breifcase full of cash left behind. Angel wanted to leave it because of where it came from (bad guys) , Cordy pointed out that he had bills to pay and a baby to support (I would have loved to have had Cordy find out Angel had some Angelus accounts squirreled away and make him get the money and talk him into it by pointing out they could help more people if they weren't put out of business because they couldn't pay the bills) .
Buffy OTOH instead of having Willow hack into the accounts (possibly magically assisted) took girls to rob a bank, not only committing a crime but teaching all those girls that might makes right and planting a seed of corruption.
What makes Cordy and Spike good matches for Angel and Buffy is the fact that both are practical and have common sense. Sure Spike was a fool for love but he told her he could get money and it was the day to day that completely screwed her up. If he'd been around he probably would have suggested that Willow hack into the accounts and figure out how the council made money all those years . Also both Cordy and Spike are very strong willed where Buffy and Angel are weak willed.. Sure Spike spent time depressed in the basement after he got his soul but he pulled himself together and soldiered on to help even though along with the new soul he had the First Evil tormenting him. Angel OTOH hand spent decades being pretty much useless including the time he spent with Buffy. It was only once he left her in LA that he made an effort.
I'd love to read an AU where Cordy didn't die and really did wake up and how it would effect events all the way through season 8. Things would definitely change for the better.
Lastly, I'm one of the hateful reactionary blowbacks that Joss talks about, but I found the message of S8 to be the most regressive, disgusting and demeaning to women that I've seen since the days when men were found not guilty of rape by claiming a woman asked for it by the way she dressed. Apparently, too many powerful women in the world goes against the natural order to such an extent the universe becomes a sentient being and recruits a man to help it. The man lies to and manipulates the strongest woman. He physically, emotionally and mentally abuses the woman for her own good and to eventually make her stronger. Then when the women is at her lowest, he has sex with her, and she becomes a sperm depository to birth a new universe. Although the new universe, their child, is perfect in every way, the strong woman turns her back on her child and abandons it because she loves others more than her child. What were they thinking?
~ ps
I'm with you on this - I absolutely hate the casual use of violence against women and the entire Brad Meltzer was so offensive to me - I get mad everytime I think about it.
I'm with you on this - I absolutely hate the casual use of violence against women and the entire Brad Meltzer was so offensive to me - I get mad everytime I think about it.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 28 2011 10:09 pm #219ps
Guest
The really sad thing about this is that I read other Buffy discussions last night and saw people express concern over the attitude and violence towards women that S8 conveyed, and people (male and female) were defending it. Would they defend a man beating up a woman for her own good or to make her stronger if they saw it on COPS instead of BTVS. Would they defend a woman having sex with the man right after he beat her if it was on COPS instead of BTVS. I don't think they would. To dismiss it because BTVS is fantasy, not reality doesn't change things. The message is there.
Coalitiongirl said the comic jumped the shark with the Meltzer arc. She's right. The Twilight reveal and Meltzer's arc was where it went very wrong. Before we knew Angel was Twilight, the battle was between two soldiers on opposite sides of the field. With the reveal that Angel, Buffy's "true love 4eva", was Twilight, the whole dynamic changed, and not for the better.
I don't understand Joss saying that even though magic is gone, the Slayers would still have their powers, because he didn't want to dilute the empowerment message of Chosen. Wasn't the empowerment message destroyed by turning it into a bad thing and blaming the problems of S8 on too many slayers. If DH is able to get Gail Simone to write S9, this might be turned around. With a new artist and new writers, I might be willing to give the comics a second chance.
Coalitiongirl said the comic jumped the shark with the Meltzer arc. She's right. The Twilight reveal and Meltzer's arc was where it went very wrong. Before we knew Angel was Twilight, the battle was between two soldiers on opposite sides of the field. With the reveal that Angel, Buffy's "true love 4eva", was Twilight, the whole dynamic changed, and not for the better.
I don't understand Joss saying that even though magic is gone, the Slayers would still have their powers, because he didn't want to dilute the empowerment message of Chosen. Wasn't the empowerment message destroyed by turning it into a bad thing and blaming the problems of S8 on too many slayers. If DH is able to get Gail Simone to write S9, this might be turned around. With a new artist and new writers, I might be willing to give the comics a second chance.
Jan 29 2011 12:58 am #220ladycat713
Guest
The only way I can see the Slayer reamining Slayers making sense is if the power is in thier DNA (after the first Slayer that is) and the only magic involved is keeping the power from becoming active.
The Slayer spell should have been limited to Sunnydale . That would have been the right thing to do right out of the gate at the end of season 7. Especially given that Buffy spent so much time complaining about being made Slayer taking her choices and freedom from her. Add in to that the obvious rape parallel when they showed how the first Slayer was made and it never made sense that Buffy would do to so many what had been done to her.
Unless they were trying to make us believe that something can be reprehensible if a man does it but perfectly fine if a woman does it. Like for instance Willow's magical rape of Tara's mind and body was ok and Buffy's abuse of Spike was ok, but Spike was to be forever vilified after snapping like a twig after said abuse (descibed by Barb C I believe as the kind of abuse that would make someone snap and take out a McDonald's with an uzi) . Buffy and Willow showed no remorse but Spike who was supposed to be evil did.
The Slayer spell should have been limited to Sunnydale . That would have been the right thing to do right out of the gate at the end of season 7. Especially given that Buffy spent so much time complaining about being made Slayer taking her choices and freedom from her. Add in to that the obvious rape parallel when they showed how the first Slayer was made and it never made sense that Buffy would do to so many what had been done to her.
Unless they were trying to make us believe that something can be reprehensible if a man does it but perfectly fine if a woman does it. Like for instance Willow's magical rape of Tara's mind and body was ok and Buffy's abuse of Spike was ok, but Spike was to be forever vilified after snapping like a twig after said abuse (descibed by Barb C I believe as the kind of abuse that would make someone snap and take out a McDonald's with an uzi) . Buffy and Willow showed no remorse but Spike who was supposed to be evil did.
If they ever put Buffy back with Angel/Angelus they will have made the most tragic willing victim ever. After Season 8 - going back and watching the TV series has changed my perspective on Buffy. I always thought she was an extremely flawed heroine model - but I now am seeing her in a lot more negative perspective. Buffy post Season 8 has made her into a much darker character and she seems even more emotionally traumatized than she did before. She can be such a loving woman one day and instance and then completely turn into a hard and violent angry person. All of the characters take such a different quality when they find out that Spike has fallen in love with her. I guess after their experience with Angel/Angelus it would turn them totally against even the possibility of another vampire-Buffy relationship. I find that I am more than ever disgusted with the premise of Angel being good and special because he has a soul. I felt so sad seeing all this play out again after Season 8. Especially seeing all the images coming of the Egypt - Angel/Twangel, TwiAngel and Buffy/Love Victim causing all that death and destruction touched my heart on a deeper level.
Yes, Buffy is not real life and only a lousy comic book - but the Buffyverse and Angelverse have always been reflections of real life to me, and the theme of personal agendas and killing people and destroying lives all for "the greater good" or for conquest and political power, it's all so tragic.
Yes, Buffy is not real life and only a lousy comic book - but the Buffyverse and Angelverse have always been reflections of real life to me, and the theme of personal agendas and killing people and destroying lives all for "the greater good" or for conquest and political power, it's all so tragic.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Here is a nice James Marsters Captain John Hart Variant Cover for the Torchwood "Shrouded" story. Open the "actions" to see all the sizes.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
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