Okay, this is a bit of a personal rant, I suppose, but please feel free to weigh in if you have any explanation for this odd reader behavior...

As most of you know, I tend to write stories that, whether I intend them to or not, make readers end up getting mad at my Buffy...lol...and I usually don't intend to, I just write her as I read her character, which may or may not be accurate -- it's just my perception of the character. I don't hate her -- I'm just trying to be real.

Cases in point --

1. Blood Bound, in which Buffy was only mean and evil when she was possessed by the Slayer demon; when she was herself, she was nicer to Spike than she was in canon, and yet people got mad at her.

and more recently:

2. Because He Needs Me, in which Buffy made some huge mistakes, unintentionally got Spike hurt, but people came to the conclusion that she could not possibly love Spike and make those mistakes, and got very mad at her, even saying that they'd rather they didn't even get together in the end.

Now, understand, that's not what I have a problem with -- 99.9% of those comments were well-thought-out, logical, and complimentary, and I enjoy the conflicting views of various readers, it makes reading reviews even more wonderful than it already is :)

And also note that the following comment is not referring to the reviewers *here* -- I don't think anyone here has done this:

I just don't get how the same people who've written several-paragraph-long reviews on why what Buffy did is wrong and why she doesn't deserve Spike and why he should not forgive her, read the last chapter in which he said he was having a hard time forgiving her -- and suddenly did this about face!!

"Spike is such an idiot!"

"I hope she makes him make the first move!"

and my all-time most flabbergasting favorite:

"Well, he left without saying goodbye, so what right does he have to whine about anything?"

What right does he have to whine about the situation? After all that's happened to him? What is that?

Again, please understand -- my problem is not with any of these comments per se...and if anyone here has made a similar comment, don't think I'm talking about you. Those opinions, whether or not I agree with them, are perfectly valid.

I just don't get the abrupt about-face on the part of those readers who have made both types of comments....It's like one minute they want one thing, the next they want the opposite...

I'm confused...and also kind of interested in what psychological dynamic might create this kind of reaction -- like what would cause someone to change their mind so drastically, with no known cause as far as I can see in the story???

Any comments? Anyone?

And P.S. I really hope I haven't offended anyone with this comment...if I have, I'm sorry...I'm just really curious and thought someone else might be able to shed a bit of light on the thing... :)

No idea how to explain such behaviour. I guess, they are just dying for fluffy spuffy and being denied are lashing out at whichever character is causing the non-fluffyness. OR they've begun to sympathise with Buffy due to all her inner rants and saying goodbye to xander in the chapter Goodbye. As for me, I hate Buffy (ok, not really) and only put  up with her because Spike loves her more than anything. I mean how can I not love something Spike cares for so much? I just love it when Buffy wants Spike and he gives her a taste of her own medecine. So, continue with the BHNM current track. Buffy needs to earn Spike. Afterall he's wanted by every female on this fandom and others.

I've read recent reviews for you at another site, and I was amazed at the "Spike needs to get over himself" comments. Of course, I don't agree, since *hello*, he's been freakin' traumatized, so what the hell are they smoking? Ahem....

As for your question, I think FA is right in her estimation that they're mad at any character that "gets in the way" of Spuffy happy/sex/love. Which is really immature, IMO. If you want fluffy Spuffy, a DoS fic is not the right target (no offense, hon!). I really don't get some readers.....

Caro Mio

lol, no offense taken, CM :) *hugs*

i know, i was kinda thinking the same thing...i would think most people would know by now, unless they've never read one of my fics before, that i don't exactly *do* fluffy, ya know? :)

my goal really isn't to make either character look bad, just to place them in a situation and do my best to play it out the way i think the characters would behave...good or bad....

i think you both are probably right in your assessments, though :) makes sense to me :)

I think, possibly, in the places that have more teen readers.....that they're probably just not getting the complexity of all the psychology. Not that a young person *can't*, of course, but in general, they don't have that maturity to consider others in that way, yet. They're looking for a pay-off, if the movies marketed to them are anything to go by. :P

I love it when people agree with me. I really don't like fluffy spuffy too much. I think their chatacters and their relationship are all too complex. I like fics which take this into account so I generally tilt towards angsty stuff. DoS, one of the reasons I love your fics so much is because you potray this aspect of Spike and Buffy well.

Alot of the problem is some people only read the title not the warnings or summary then when they start reading fic and Spike ends up crying his eyes out or hurt their all put out. As for leaving reviews saying you don't like the way an author is treating a character , well that shows their immaturity... You can't exspect a child to understand everything that goes on in the adult world...

BHNM causes many conflicting emotions in me. At first I was so happy with the way Buffy acted and lately I just want to bash her over the head...repeatedly. I think the biggest reason why you're getting conflicting reactions is because it's so easy to get sucked into the chapter and forget the big picture. Maybe those reactions are due to imaturity, maybe they're just due to the fact that your chapters are usually so emotionally involving that people review first and think later. Maybe it's a combination of both. 

As far as the flaming of Spike goes for the last chapter... I wanted to hug him to pieces.

DoS-

I've been remiss in my coments, but I have read the fic in question from the beginning.  I have been taken on an emotional ride, with lots of ups and downs, but I knew what I was getting into. :) I'm a grown woman, and the things you write still affect me, and that's the sign of a good writer.

Just imagine what it would be like reading your story if you were slightly less mature?

Don't worry, DoS, just keep doing what you're doing.  Write the story *you * need to write, and the readers that understand that- will follow you.  As for those that fall away?  Well, to borrow a bit of wisdom:

"...Sod all else, right?"

FetchingMadScientist

Here, here!!

FMS, would you happen to be updating today? :)

Yeah I'm someone who doesn't particularly want Spike and Buffy together in this fic.  I just don't think she deserves him.  I think she's got too many issues blah blah blah.  I wish he could end up with Fred.  But yeah, this is a Spuffy site so that won't happen.  Of course I haven't hopped over to the other side of the ship to freak out on Spike lol.  I think he's right.

I think Buffy should be spanked though.  Gah.

But yeah.  And I agree with the comments that said they probably just want fluffy spuffy and any character that keeps them from being together is enemy number one for that chapter.  But yeah, you don't do fluffy, so are they morons? um hello. 

Don't worry, DoS, just keep doing what you're doing.  Write the story *you * need to write, and the readers that understand that- will follow you.  As for those that fall away?  Well, to borrow a bit of wisdom:

"...Sod all else, right?"

FetchingMadScientist

I was quoted!  Squeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

I mean, Spike was quoted! *grin*

Ok, my .02... You already know I'm a big fan of yours--and if you didn't, then my begging you to write me into White Magic went COMPLETELY over your head--and just like FMS, you take me on an emotional rollercoaster ride so I respond accordingly with each chapter.

Look at it this way...someone who starts out hating one of your characters in the beginning who by the end is rooting for them...that just shows your mettle as a writer. If you can evict the strong emotional responses that go from one extreme to the other, then please take that as a sign that you are doing something right...or else they wouldn't bother responding at all.

You have a huge following hun...and as new readers come across your fics, they will either immediately love you or immediately write you off (no pun intended) it because you are not a Fluff writer.

Keep in mind though, we have a LOT of people on this board...writers and readers alike and there are gonna be opinions from one extreme to the other. The readers that start off adamantly feeling one way at the story's beginning only to seemingly do a 180 by the end...those are the ones that should make you sit up a little taller in your seat because YOUR fic...YOUR words were the ones to make them change their mind and to that I say:

WAY TO GO DOS!

And if all else fails...pull a Spike!

I've been reading the comments on BHNM pretty closely, cause the diverse reactions are so fascinating.  I have been wondering how you feel about it -- cause there's no way you can please everyone on this!  Personally, I think it's all to your credit -- you've written a complex enough story that you are eliciting lots of diverse reactions.

I was taken aback by the "Spike needs to get over it comments."  I agree that these comments must be coming from those who just want their fluffy Spuffy -- but why they expect to find it in a fic like this is beyond me.  While I like some fluffy Spuffy to lighten up the day, the reason I read Spuffy is because of writers like you, ones willing to explore the complexities of this difficult relationship.   Even when I disagree with you (often, cause I'm an opinionated kind of a gal) about the details of how you work things out, I think you create situations that are interesting to think about.  (Much appreciated.)

As for the people who flip back and forth, my money is on the argument that people are just having knee jerk reactions to the chapter of the moment.  One thing about reading a WIP is that it's harder to read the work as a whole... and that could be why you get such inconsistent responses from the same person.  You do update frequently so it's easier to stay in the flow of what you are doing, but this is a long work -- so maybe that explains why some readers are losing their place. 

Anyway,  I think you should take the voluminous response to this work as a big compliment!  Lots of readers.  And lots of them who care enough to argue about it.  It's all good.

Take it as a compliment, DOS.  You've got your readers by the short and scruffies and they're howling.  Would they care if they weren't so involved in the characters and the story?  Nope.

As to Buffy, she's a pain in the butt sometimes, but I love her.  I'm sure you're going to fix up everything in due time - say 30 or 40 chapters. 

lol. DoS I know exactly where the whiny Spike comment came from because I saw it on another site today and thought "Huh?"

I think you just have to chalk it up to everyone having different opinions and perceptions about what they read. Most people don't intend to upset the writer (some do; but that's another rant altogether). When an author writes a particularly angsty story--and writes it well--people tend to become emotionally invested in it. Just take it as a compliment when people get angry at your characters--it means you have made the characters real to them. :)

I didn't read through every comment, so forgive me if I repeat anything that's already been said.

Maybe it comes from reading a WIP.  Perhaps when people write their comments on a particular chapter, they focus on the particular chapter and put all of the events that occurred earlier in the back of their minds.  

Maybe people just want Spike and Buffy together as soon as possible.  They've read 50+ chapters of gut-wrenching, non-Spuffiness, and one more thing that could prolong the Spuffy ending is just one thing too many.

Maybe they like to point out the perfectly obvious.  They've spent 50+ chapters hating Buffy and her many, varied, readily-apparent faults, and, when Spike finally has a Dumbass Moment of his own, they latch onto it and point out the perfectly obvious.

Maybe you've spun such a heart-wrenching, stomach-churning, suspenseful, thought-provoking tale with such beautifully flawed, raw, true-to-life characters that people can't help but to cry, and to rant, and to incite heated debates :boohoo:

Maybe it's all of the above. :P

Haven't had the chance to read this particular fic of yours, however, IB's comment got me thinking- this is similar (the reviewer's reaction to jumping on Spike's balls after one mistake, ignoring Buffy's MANY mistakes) to what the writers of the show were hoping to achieve in "Seeing Red."  But you, as a fan fic writer, didn't go for that- allowing Spike to refuse the relationship with her (I assume).  Which is good on him.  And pure fluff is bloody boring.

I've been reading your Spara, and to just "forgive and forget" is well... Stupid.  You forget, and history repeats itself.  Sounds like in this particular fic that they need some time apart.  With distance comes growth... or something like that.

Okay, I'm tossing in my 2 cents. Really I don't think once can say that some of the reviews left could be from younger readers. I think it's based on maturity level, in both adult and teen readers. I was more mature at certain ages than my peers, and even today some adults or less mature than others. (sorry but it's true, lol).

I know what I'm getting into when I read your stuff DoS, and I heart it. If someone is waiting on a payoff and not getting what they want I guess they would react in that way leaving you certain reviews. And just like others said, some people have beent aken on a roller coster of emotions. Me, not so much. You write Buffy perfectly (imho) and I expect her to act in a certain way and you write it, and the same with Spike and the others. I guess the emotions are making them react, they want luffy spuffy lovin and they're not getting it. Before it was Buffy's fault and now its Spike's. They've completely forgotten that he was the victem in all of this, and I guess they want him to forgive her and forget everything. So they are mad at his reaction.

I'm also on the boad that Buffy needs to work for Spike this time around, and like Zoe said, needs to be spanked with a wooden paddle. Oh, say, 100 times, lol.

i must say, all of your kind comments have been very very encouraging to me :) makes me feel a lot better about the -- well, frankly, *weird* -- feedback i'd been getting lately :P lol

all of your comments, reviews, and just general support really helps me to take all the other stuff in stride :)

*hugs to all*

DoS

I still say you should write me into White Magic...you know...just in case Tara needs some backup! *grin*

lol...we'll see, love :) i might try to see what i can come up with ;)

Oh but GB, a riding crop would make prettier marks. :)  Plus you can "hear it" more in the downswing.

I have a riding crop, if anyone cares to borrow it. :P

Although, come to think of it...a schooling whip might serve better. Smaller tip, stings a lot more...and is good for teaching lessons. :D

I'm so glad you posted this - just the other day I was telling my husband about some of the reviews for this story & how they make me crazy!  My opinon - if you don't like don't read it! 

As mentioned before, the fact your work evokes such varied  responses is a testament of your talents. It's all I can do to write a post in this forum, let alone have the guts to submit a story(I'm too thin -skinned). Sometimes you have a little more angst than I would like - but I knew what I signed up for when I started reading.  

I'll stop rambling now - keep up the great work!

see, i dont even mind so much if it's a negative review...people are entitled to their opinion, and id rather have one bad review that explains why the reader feels that way, than fifty "postiive" two-word "good story" type reviews, you know?

it just didn't make sense to me that the same people who've been hollering "buffy's bad! stone her!" are now saying, "spike should forgive her at once! he's a whiny wuss for not getting over it in two seconds"

lol *sigh*

but everyone's comments have really helped to put things into perspective a bit, and i appreciate your consistently kind and thoughtful comments :)

hahaha DoS, well you can rest easy knowing that at least I'm consistent with my Buffy hate. ;)  I'm still fully and completely on team-spike.

I see your point, a negative review can be constructive - as for why people go back and forth - who knows, some people you just can't please?  I've been  reading fan fic for about six months but I'd never left a review, until I started reading BHNM, the whole chatting with folks I can't see or hear is a bit odd for me but I seem to be getting past it, hence the posts. Now I always try to leave a review.

 I don't hate Buffy; however she definitely needs to do some major  kow-towing. I love to see Spike with upper hand, we never got to really experience that in the show.

and rarely get to experience it in my fics :P lol

yes DoS I don't think you write a very growly spike. lol.

no, that's why we have you :P

hehe true.  My Spike is always dominant. :)

And Buffy will fall in line.  Or else he'll use the thrall thingy or spank her or something. :)

and then she'll fall in line, right? :P

Of course.  Spike can still be the big bad scary when he wants.  And we are done with bratty buffy. :)

 lol...we'll see, love i might try to see what i can come up with

HA! Tease! I'll probably end up the girl sitting on the bus bench that gets flattened by the bus that Tara magically flings at Buffy! *grin*

Something like that! But seriously, we really do want to help Tara and Spike get the evil bitch. :D

You know I've been thinking, maybe after Buffy's been spanked she sould have a topper. Like say a bit of rubbing alcohol on the bum. Ok, I'm evil, but it would drive the point home that Spike is in charge. I think not only would she fall in line she'd stay there forever, lol.

I think Buffy would like Spike in charge.  She's just fighting it.  But deep down... yeah. ;)

 we really do want to help Tara and Spike get the evil bitch

Hee! <3 Kimmy!

*Hugs*  We could so do it, right? She'd never suspect a couple human chicks. (Boyfriend even owns a sniper rifle, hee hee hee.)

Check to see if he might have a bazooka hidden in there too...I want her to hurt badly.

*grin*

I'd love to read your fiction, would you give me a link?

oooh, of course!! you can find it at several places, my own website, which is www.darktreasures.net/dbd , or the Fang Fetish archive, www.athenewolfe.com/justrewards , or at my lj, which is friend-locked, so you'd have to friend me to read it there... http://dreamsofspike.livejournal.com

It's called "White Magic", you can just look it up by title at my site, or under my name at the Fang Fetish archive :)

Hope you enjoy it, let me know what you think, love :)

OMG DoS! I just read through the reviews on the last 3 chapters of BHNM and HOLY F**K!

No wonder you started this whole thread with the feelings you have.

Woman, I am so glad you have the Spikeness to keep writing that story your way, especially after some of the seriously POINTLESS reviews. Its one thing to debate the characters or to argue or complain who's in the wrong etc., but Spuffygirl4eva just kind of pissed me off. Her review was COMPLETELY pointless, with no merit to it at all, especially considering the kind of fic she hasn't seemed to have have read much of judging by the idiocy of her review. I'm not even the author of the story and I'm wanting to throw stuff at her!!

Gah! Mean people suck! DoS--you're amazingly sweet and highly tolerant of needless stupidity and I, for one, hope to God that you continue to write your story without influence of anything other than the feeling you have when writing it and if its not a Spuffy ending, so be it and anyone with a problem with it can just kiss your posterior! SOD ALL WHAT ANYONE THINKS! Just keep that in mind!

Grrrr...my hackles are all in an uproar now. I just want to stand by you with a bat and dare someone to leave an asinine remark.

Too bad we can't slap people over the internet....

lol...your support makes me feel a lot better about the whole thing, really...it's like the polar opposite of the meanness some people were exhibiting, and it's incredibly welcome, love :)

thanx so much for being so supportive and encouraging with your comments, it means more than you know :)

*hugs*

DoS

DoS...I'm trying to be all RAWR and intimidating and if you're all huggy and mushy, no-one is gonna take me seriously!

*grin*

Seriously, just know I care and I have a bat at the ready ;)

Thanks DreamsofSpike, sadly I don't own a Live Journal, but I'll check it out in these sites.

Cool, let me know what you think!!! I'll give you cookies and brownies if you do!! Okay, not so much....but still let me know!!!!

(I am *such* a review whore :P lol)

Dreams - I just looked at the reviews for your latest chapter (excellent IMHO) and you certainly excite some wildly different reviews.  Some people loved Buffy's apology, some people thought it wasn't enough.  They should know that you are going to wring every last drop out of Buffy before you get through.  No mere apology, no matter how heartfelt, will satisfy.  I trust you to put Buffy through the wringer to make her worthy of Spike. 

I agree with Spikez tart, once this fic is over Buffy is going to be someone she wasn't before all this started. Maybe this will finally mature her, cause, really, running off to Rome and hooking up with the Immortal so wasn't mature.

Now if her change will be good enough for Spike we'll have to wait and see. I'm straped in for the ride. Ok, going back to bed now, lol. Or maybe not. Need to red fic-age.

TGIQ was such a disappointment, because Buffy had seemed to have matured during B7.  That's the main reason I'm excited about the new B8 comic books -- because about the first thing Joss does is tell us that it wasn't really Buffy in Rome.  So now I can think better of her.  Or at least hope that I can think better of her.  Meanwhile, in BHNM, I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out for her -- she still has a ways to go, but since this is DOS it's probably safe to say we aren't too near the end yet.

I totally forgot about S8 comic. *slaps forehead* So yeah, my view is back to her and her maturing during S7.  But DoS won't let us down.

DreamsofSpike, I finished Because He Needs Me last night. How intense, arousing different emotions. I have to say that I never expected Xander to be the torturer because as much as he dislikes Spike, he doesn't have it in him to be so mean, but looking back at his dream in Restless his homelife is much worse than we expect if The First Slayer is disguising as Xander's father to kill him. Buffy's mixed up emotions were written very well and I felt for her in every sentence, I didn't hate her at all. You made me cry rivers for poor Spike and any writer who can make me cry is awesome because I don't cry easily.

oh, thanx so much!!! so glad you're enjoying the story so far, it's not quite done yet, but we're getting close :) thanx for your kind words..

lol...i might have given you the wrong link, you asked right at a point in the thread when another one of my fics was being discussed, a spara one, so i thought that was the one you were asking about, since it's not up at this site, obviously :) so i'm sorry if i didn't give you the link you were looking for :)

again, thanx so much for your kind words, it means so much to know the story touched you...and i agree about xander...he went through a lot...that doesn't excuse his actions, but it might serve to help *explain* them a bit.. :)

*hugs*

DoS

okay, so what the heck is the deal with people? i feel like the feelings of the characters have been pretty well laid out in this last chapter, and that both spike and buffy are pretty understandable....

especially spike, after all that he's been through...yeah, he was no angel in season six, but keep in mind that this is pre-SR, and at the point this story picked up, the worst thing he had done was try to convince buffy to spend more time with him and less with her friends...a perfectly normal thing for an obsessed vampire to do :P lol

and yet i'm getting reviews over at SR that are like, "Spike just doesn't care about anyone but himself" and that's a direct quote!

HelllOOOO!!?? the guy *ought* to do a little caring about himself, because it's not like anyone else has before this fic picked up! and it's not like buffy has showed as much care as she should have in this fic, even!

I just don't get it...he's the one who was victimized in this story...and because he doesn't immediately just get over it, suddenly he's the selfish one?

*sigh*

Okay, end rant.

*beat*

For now.

Until the next stupid review that gets my hackles up :P lol

I think it's like whoever said before - they're lashing out at whoever's holding back the Spuffy love. You've definitely laid out both characters' feelings, and while not speaking for anyone else, I at least can see where both of them are coming from. 

Spike soooo deserves to think of himself - especially in this fic. Jeepers creepers, the guy's been tortured, and he STILL can't catch a break. I think it's mostly that you've put your readers through an emotional ringer (but in such a good way) but now they want happy Spuffy and if Spike's standing in the way of that, he's selfish, for not thinking of the readers who want Spuffy smut!

Or maybe you just pissed off some Xander fans. ;)

I agree. I think some people just want you to cut out all the drama and get to the Spuffy loven, lol. Most likely its some teens. majority of them can't hold out for the pay off. *shurgs* But keep up the good work hun, cause it's good. I love it.

I shake my head at the dummies over there all the time, LOL.

I sometimes wonder if the attraction of Spuffy for some people is the idea that Spike will love Buffy no matter what -- she can bitch and use and beat and pound all she wants and he keeps on loving her.  It feeds the fantasy of having a relationship in which we can do no wrong in the eyes of other.  So if Spike shows a bit of backbone, like here, well -- that's just not slavish enough, now is it? 

I hope that's not what's really going on, but I do wonder with some of those reviews over there at that other place.

You could be right, Maggie. Unfortunately.

I just recently started posting stuff at SR again after a very long absence (can you say tons of unaswered two-year old reviews? cough)  and my feeling is that a huge number of readers there don't care about anything except Spuffy loving.  You could write a totally plotless, illiterate fic and as long as it had Spike and Buffy together (preferably naked and horizontal) in every chapter, it would get raves.  So, I tend to agree with whomever said that maybe the reviewers wanted to get to the Spuffy loving.  Some of them cannot see past the absence of sex and smoochies to the actual relationship issues that make the whole thing interesting.  More of a reflection on them than on the fic, I would think.  *shrugs*

I agree with Slaymesoftly. I've seen other sites were horribly written stories get tons of positive reviews because they are nothing but fluff and porn. I happen to like a bit more substance to the stories I read and write.

DoS if you had had Spike imediately fall into Buffy's arms and declare his undying love and forgiveness for every sin she's committed against him then, to be perfectly honest, your story would have stunk. Instead it's real and heartbreaking and absolutly wonderful.

I may occasionally rant and rave over something you've had the characters do but I love it just the way it is. :)

so let me start by chiming in with a "what they said...."  And maybe that's what those complainers don't like about the story, it's very real as opposed to the shiny, happy, people fluff.  So far your characterizations have been spot on and their actions and words have been completely realistic - there was no other way for Buffy and Spike to behave towards each other.  If they would have fallen in each other's arms when Buffy showed up in LA, well, yeah, you would have gotten a lot of shiny, shaggin' spuffy.  But then the chapter wouldn't have been worthy; this is a great story!  Don't worry about the complainers, write the story you have in you and *big ole rasberry* to the rest... :)

Just wanted to say I really appreciate the kind words from everyone, it means so much, all the compliments and support....

All of your points make sense, they're all issues i've run up against at SR before, and most of your opinions I've thought myself about the readers over there, though I didn't want to say it for fear of sounding like a bitter resentful writer who was insulting readers because i didn't like their reviews :P

Again, much appreciation for all the encouragement and kindness.

*hugs*

DoS

Nah, don't worry DoS. You know BHNM totally rocks, so I bite my thumb at those who flame you, lol. I've gotten one flame for It Happened One Night over at SR, the reader was so pissed that Joyce wasn't all "I'm so happy that your knocked up by Spike," at that point. They went on this rant saying how they were so upset they stopped reading and they couldn't read the rest of my updates. *shrugs* Their lose, lol. I'm not going to beg or apologise for what I'm writing. It's my story. And the same goes for you, don't feel bad, try not to let those evil reviewers her your back up. It's your fic, it's a awesome fic, write what you want. If people can't stomache it, then back the hell away and don't say anything. *ok, steps down from soapbox* I'm running from the room now, lol.