Was there anything Spike did in the show that you disliked? Some fans hate the attempted rape. Some dislike that Spike went off to kill that woman when he thought his chip stopped working. Some people disliked that Spike shagged Harmony at Angel the show instead of looking for Buffy... and the list go on.

While I disliked most of these things, I think what I really disliked was Spike tying Dru and Buffy up in Crush, threatening to kill Drusilla in order to get Buffy to love him. Not only that it makes Spike look like a pathetic idiot but it also shows him as a betrayor and a very disloyal person. It's one of my least Spike moments so far.

What about you?

I have no problem with any of that. I do have a problem with the way he let Buffy string him along though. Love and loyalty is nice and all, but it ought to be earned - and if the other person thinks she's too good to have to earn your loyalty, then you shouldn't prove them right.

I also disliked how he let Buffy use him like that. I know that love is different in vampire terms, but I wish Spike had more dignity.

I hate the whole bathroom scene in "Seeing Red." It's not really the attempted rape so much as what went on before hand. Buffy dumped him and then had the gall to act all wounded girlfriend after he slept with Anya. Spike hadn't done anything wrong! Why the hell should he have to apologize? 

I really wish he had just told her, "I'm not your boyfriend. You never would have acknowledged me as your boyfriend anyway, so take your wounded girly act and piss off."

Ok, lets hope I don't hijack the thread with this, but: Says who? Where in the show does it say that vampires expirience love differently than humans? Cos if it was mentioned, I must have missed it. Some humans (CoW, Scoobies) may think so, but we've never seen anything that verifies their views on the matter - on the other hand, we've seen plenty that proves them wrong. And if this is about vampire-lore again: fanon, fanon, fanon. BtVS contained almost nothing that can be considered vampire-lore, at least not the kind you see in other vampire novels/games/shows. No rules, laws, whatever. The BtVS vamps are not all that different from humans. Yes, they are evil, and they feed from humans, but that's about it.

It's easy to dislike any of the scenes where Spike's demon/vampire nature is on display, but I think they were important as reminders of what he was and how far he had come.  Chaining Buffy up was probably in part, a reaction to having Dru standing there when she popped up (plus a bit of embarrassment and anger that she'd been snooping around his "shrine").  Again, vampire - offering to kill Dru probably seemed to him like a legitimate proof of his affection. lol.  Who knows if he actually would have done it - he was ranting and pleading at that point.  I don't know that I took him seriously while he was saying it.

He hesitates before he drinks from the girl Dru kills for him, he has to talk himself into attacking the woman when he thinks the chip has failed - both subtle signs that his nature is changing bit by bit.  I think the writers felt that it was important to emphasize his demon nature from time to time - especially the ones who didn't want Buffy to be with him.  We needed to remember what he was in order to set the stage for how big a deal it was for him to get his soul.

I, personally, would have liked to see him show some more balls from time to time around Buffy- like when he sent her home when she was invisible.  There were little glimpses of self-respect and gumption, but mostly he was "Love's Bitch" - his own description of himself.  That is how the character was written, though, so it made sense. It just wasn't always pleasant to watch.  I choose to think that he probably got a good bit of his own back when the cameras weren't on them....

The Harmony thing probably bothered me more than anything else - but again, the writers had to work around the fact that there was no Buffy with which to resolve things - and, it was Angel's show and she was supposed to be the love of his life, so they would have wanted to keep Spike less heroic and desirable.  They changed his character quite a bit on AtS from what he'd evolved into on BtVS - using him much more often for comic relief.  That was hard to see sometimes, even though he was very funny.

What bothered me was most was everything after "Beneath You" in season seven.  I mean, Spike was hugging a cross, and Buffy does *Nothing!*  Then, she has the nerve to make fun of him in the very next episode, and use him like a bloodhound.

The fact that he went out and Got a soul, really seemed to mean nothing to her.  I know...I know, she gave that *amazing* act lip- service, but that's exactly what it was, and I think it was trite, to boot, IMHO.

Nothing really changed after that, and something should have.  Some say that Buffy loved him during that season, but I don't see it.

When she finally did say the words, if she meant them, I think it was too little, too late.  It's no wonder Spike let Angel talk him into staying away from Buffy.

FetchingMadScientist

Finally, someone who agrees with me. I liked Spike throughout BtVs but AtS was another story.  I just felt that the Spike in Angel wasn't the sameone from Buffy season 7 but then again I didn't watch much of Angel. I mean AtS was filled with more Angel (I know it was his show) than I can handle in an episode.

Like others have said, I don't really have a problem with Spike. The whole bit with chaning both Buffy and Dru up, like Patti said, he's a vampire in his mind it made perfect sense. And I guess since I was little I was obssessed with vampires and it made perfect sense to me as well, lol.

I did hate how Spike lost all balls when it came to Buffy though. I hated how he sat back and let her treat him like sh*t. I know he felt her was helping her but still. I enjoyed Angel and Spike together they were funny, but I do see how they tried to chance him, put more focus on Angel. But, hello, fans that came over to Angel after Buffy was over did so for Spike. I mean I stopped watching AtS after season one and then started watching bits and pieces of season five after Spike came back. No mater how hard they try the writers screwed themselves. Spike will always be the true champion no matter how he ended up there.

And the whole Harmony thing after he came back. I just chalk that up to typical horny male. I mean when they get like that I sure they'll go with anyone, lol.

I enjoyed Spuffy better on paper here in fan fic then I did on the show.  Buffy was a bitch, and I don't blame Spike for any of things he had done or attempted to do (the bot, the bathroom scene, trying to prove himself as an evil vampire when he thought his chip was busted).  Yes, he let Buffy walk all over him, but it wasn't that much different for letting Dru get away with cheating on him all the time- physical (with a coloring of emotional) abuse from Buffy, and extreme emotional abuse from Dru (the cheating, and abandoning him).

And though it doesn't say it directly, vampire love was allegedly different from human love to a degree- Spike mentioned in "Lover's Walk" that Dru must not have cared or loved him that much, because she didn't even bother to "chop of my head or set me on fire-" that would have meant she cared, putting him out of his misery in a violent way.

I started watching Angel in s3, and didn't stop till it was over.  I can honestly say that the Spike and Angel dynamic was the most interesting couple of both shows, and I wish there had been more.  They had the most stable and healthy relationship at the end of the day, and that's a sad commentary considering their two vampires- the humans couldn't do any better (cept for maybe Wes and Fred, but we don't get to see them grow).

As for Spike being a totally different vamp on Angel s5 as opposed to Buffy s7, I totally disagree.  Spike had finally come to terms with the soul and the demon meshing together.  He had no qualms of defending himself, or torturing others to help those he cared about.  He did it in s7 of Buffy (with Wood, and threatening to kill Faith, and I think he was serious about it), and torturing that guy on Angel, ya know "screams, various fluids, and a name" guy.  I still ain't mad at him.

And screwing Harmony- so what?  He had just been made corporeal, and hadn't gotten laid in at least a year.  He was over joyed at being back. Meh.

 Scarlet Ibis Spike tortured a guy? I had no idea. When I said that Spike was different I mostly meant that in Buffy he was in focus but in Angel, the focus was on Angel and he got to be the hero and stuff. Though there were certain differences but they mostly remimded me of season 4/5 Spike. And I actually like the Spike & Harmony thing. Spike sort of made amends with her, didn't he? I did like the Angel-Spike interaction and I liked Spike and Ilyria(no, not as a couple). They were fun to watch. They should make a Spike show and have Spike, Angel , Andrew, Ilyria and Anya. Spike's love's bitch, we can't change that but that doesn't mean we have to like it. The solution? Read fics where Buffy chases Spike for a change. I know a few good ones.

Yup- the torture occured when Fred was dying, and the guy refused to tell what he knew.  Fallen Angel, do you mean Spike got to be the hero on Angel?  I was a little confused on what you wrote there...

No, I meant Angel got to be the hero. Which is understandable since it's his show. I know I'm not making sense today but I had history exams and brain's exhausted.

Actually, they (the writers) always through Spike and Angel together if there was some kind of mission or a fight, and they also point out how Spike is the better champion.  And yet... one didn't overshadow the other. I loved that season.  Curse you, WB execs.  Curse you...

Spike didn't always play the whipping boy.  He kicked Buffy out of his crypt when she showed up Invisible Girl and was acting naughty in front of Xander.  Buffy was plenty pissed when that happened, too.   He was plenty snarky, too, whenever Buffy gave him a hard time. 

When Spike beat the daylights out of Robin Wood, it was more or less in self defense.  Really, Spike should have killed Wood since he could never be sure that Wood (and his Buddy in Traitorness Giles) wouldn't come after Spike again.  Right after the fight, you see Spike coming to terms with having a soul but still being strong and able to violent in appropriate circumstances.

I hated the bathroom scene.  Sometimes I think it wasn't justified by what went before (Buffy and Spike having a very violent relationship at all times) and sometimes I think it was motivated (Spike finally being pushed too far and feeling jealous and vindictive and wanting to establish some dominance in the relationship).  It's interesting that after Spike attempted to rape Buffy and she was supposed to be so upset, she never did a disinvite spell.  Spike walked right into the house when he returned from Africa.

I also hated when Spike came back with his soul and he and Buffy and some others were at the Bronze.  Anya realized he had gotten his soul back and Spike starts saying some really nasty stuff to Buffy about her needing another trip up to the balcony, in order to keep Buffy from finding out.  That was just too rude.

Sorry, I still can't refer to the bathroom scene as the "attempted rape" scene fully, considering, well, everything.  That was not his intent, and had it been, he would've tried again, even after she pushed him away.  The one time out of a thousand she says "no" and means it, and being the abuser  and tormentor for their entire relationship, I can't help but sympathize with Spike.  Had Buffy been a man, and Spike the woman, we'd all probably would've wanted to kill her or exact some type of revenge for the bulk of season six.  She was just like those guys you see on Maury or whatnot who beat and physically abuse their wives, and there were plenty of times when sexually assaulted him, or did things without asking.

And as for Spike being rude, well, that was just him taking the attention off of himself, he wasn't ready for anyone to know at that point.  And so what if he was rude to Buffy- she needed a stick out of her a$$ anyway.  Xander too, for that matter.  Loved it when he punched him in the face in "Sleeper."

*nods with Scarlet*

Go Scarlet Go!

About A5:  Was Angel really portrayed as a hero?  He's working for an evil law firm because he made a deal to mind-wipe all of his friends (which Cordy totally calls him on).  He decides to go out with a big bang -- which involves killing a totally innocent person in cold blood (Drogan), risking the lives of his crew and anyone else in downtown LA who runs into the hordes of nasty beasts who come as a result of what he does, and he orders the cold-blooded execution of Lindsey -- and all for what?  To stop the world from going on the way it normally does.  Yes, they always have Angel in the hero-posture, dominating the screen and all of that.  But what they show him doing is all really very morally bankrupt.  Compare that to Spike's selfless and glorious sacrifice in The Chosen.

And the writers did acknowledge Spike's essential superiority to Angel when they realized that there was no way they could justify having Angel beating Spike in the fight over the destiny cup.  Spike won that battle because he's the true hero.  All the rest of the stuff that made Spike look lesser than Angel is just window-dressing.  The big theme of the season was that appearances don't match reality.

lol, thanks guys

Maggie, you're right.  Angel did start a war that wasn't necessary. However, the writers were pretty much backed into a corner to be fair- they needed a big fight to end all fights for the series finally.  I liked the alley scene at the end better than Chosen (even though I was pissed as all hell about Wesley),  as well as the fighting sequences, though I don't get why Gunn didn't just bomb the place, and why Wesley didn't wait for Illyria for reinforcement.  Hello?  Poor planning...  And Lindsay didn't have to be taken out- I always wondered if that were a direct order from Angel, or if Lorne chose to do that.  Of all the people he asked to do murder, it was Lorne?  The singing club owner guy when he had Spike and Wesley, even Illyria?  I didn't get it...

Scarlet, I kind of think the writers did it all deliberately.  I mean, they didn't *have* to have Angel kill Drogan just to get to the Alley Way.  And they didn't *have* to have Angel order the hit on Lindsey.  (And it was Angel's order -- that's why Lorne tells Angel that after this 'operation' he will never have anything to do with Angel again.)  Angel picked Lorne because that way Lindsey (and the audience) wouldn't see it coming.  So while I agree that the writers had to scramble after the cancellation of the series to wrap things up in a dramatic way -- I think they chose to wrap it up in a way that puts a huge exclamation point on the failure of Angel's project of redemption.  Angel is in the alley way at the end because he has given up, and has contrived a big-bang way to go out so that he can assuage his ego.  IMHO.

All true, but... If you think of it this way, had their been a Spike movie like there *should* have been, the end of Angel set it up as Spike being the true vampire Champion with a soul.  That's the only thing that consoles me   And Lindsey should've been in that alley too, damn it. Killing him didn't make sense.

Yeah, the Lindsey thing was really sad.  I think they did it to show how much Angel fell over the course of four years.  In A1, his shiny moment was believing in Faith and giving her room to find her redemption.  In A5, he denies that to Lindsey -- and it looks like Lindsey might well have been about to find his moment.  You leave me with a good picture, though -- Lindsey in that alley would have been hot!

Of course Spike was the true vampire champion with a soul.  Would like to have seen it in the movie that was supposed to have been, but also suspect Joss would have found some way to pooch that.  I somehow doubt that Joss would want to have a hero who is unambiguously a hero.

Angel knew that Lindsey would betray them sooner or later. Lindsey's goal was to have W&H. He couldn't stay away from the power.

As for Spike on AtS - Spike was the foil to use against all of Angel's crap. He's Angel's conscience several times, he's a friend to Angel that Angel doesn't have to lie to to keep a certain image, and he's a reminder of how things should be done - back to basics. Spike was "different" as much as he was in a different setting. Spike around Angel is going to be more snarky, occasionally immature, and guarded - they're not close at the beginning of the season and can't stand each other - but they're brothers, family, and they eventually resolved a lot of stuff. Had there been a Season 6, we would have gone further into their bonding and Spike being Angel's Jiminy Cricket.

The only thing I have a problem with is the Harmony sex that season, as it just didn't make sense for Spike's character.....he's pretty much over the Hedonistic tendencies of an unsouled vampire, and still head over heels for Buffy, so grabbing the first skirt he sees that he knows will be willing wasn't post-Chosen Spike at all. That was the only time the writers let me down Spike-wise that season.

Looking back on BTVS, I have the same issues we've discussed on other threads pertaining the AR. And the Scoobies should have given more weight to Spike having his soul....that's a definite oversight. After Beneath You, I think Buffy was in shock, and what does Buffy do when surprised? Go into denial......and she's certainly not the prime candidate to help someone with mental stability issues, either! It was in character for her, but SUCKED for Spike.

She cares for him that season, she's focused on him (helping Spike despite what everyone else wanted), and I do believe she meant her words in Chosen (because the character never says I Love You without meaning it before), but yeah....too little, too late. Spike knows she cares, knows there was affection, knows she needed his help - but it's just not enough, after 8 months, for him to risk the big hurt again. He doesn't go because he's unsure, but he also didn't leave because it was a chance to be Spike for Spike, too. He had lots of reasons for staying in L.A., and a post-NFA Spike, provided he lives, won't let Buffy push him around and take over his life like that again. He took his balls back, to be blunt.

CM

 If you watch some of the interviews on the Angel season 5 dvd Joss says that even if they had gotten a sixth season the fifth would have ended the same way it did. The only differences would have been some characters would have lived (and by this I think he means Wesley and possibly Gunn, not sure about Lindsay), and they would have probally had Illyria channeling Fred.

I agree with you CM about the Harmony episode.  It was OOC (for where Spike was at that point), and for him to use her after what he went through in B6 -- well... it's ugly.

But the writers in A5 also let me down when they had Spike (and Wesley and the rest of the gang) go along with Angel's apocalypse at the end.  If I recall correctly, Spike and Wesley exchange one questioning glance when they realize that Angel killed Drogan -- but they don't seem to question the project of seriously risking all of their lives in order to launch a battle that Angel acknowledges will accomplish exactly nothing.  Spike's role *had* been exactly to be Angel's nagging voice of conscience, and it mysteriously disappeared at the end.  And Spike, of all people, should have seen it for what it was -- Angel's desire to go out looking like a hero, because he had given up hope of ever actually being one.

As for the Harmony scene, come on you guys, you have to realize that he was an intangible being for how long?  Not being able to effect things, not being able to feel, and Spike was the most tactile character on both shows.  He just wanted to feel, and Harmony knew it for what it was- sex, even if she did have feelings for him.

As for Buffy saying "I love you" to Spike, no, I didn't believe her.  She said it to Riley too, remember?  She sho nuff didn't mean it then either... It was kinda like a "meh, I know you're bout to die now."  Okay, to be fair, maybe Buffy meant it, but SMG so f-ed it up.  She half assed it, and didn't give it the feeling she used to give with her "I love you" scenes with Angel.  She just didn't show up 100% acting wise, and it came through in a piss poor performance in that last moment, which totally sucked.

And Spike and Angel got along before he was corporeal, the little moment they had in "Hell Bound," when they vehemently deny caring about each other at all and so forth.  Oh, and at the end of "Damage" too- they had a tumultuous history, but they still cared.

She didn't actually say it to Riley. She'd say "I'm your girl" or "I'm with you" but she never confessed love.

Oh, come on! He just wanted to feel? Spike spent a year not being able to act on any touches with Buffy, and he had perfect control of himself. To take it up with Harmony? Totally OOC for where he was by then!

Wes was pretty much suicidal at the end, so him going along with Angel didn't faze me a bit. And Spike....well, he'd already had peace as a dead guy once, and if he couldn't have that, then he could look after his grandsire....because if he had the chance to, and just let Angel die, he knows Buffy wouldn't forgive him for it (even if she never knew).

Yeah, SMG wasn't showing up 100% emotionally after a while. Her "I love you" to Spike was more felt than a lot of the other things she'd said to Spike earlier in the season, though. She at least had tears.

Yes, if there had been a Season 6, Wes and Gunn would have lived. Fred would regain some power in Illyria, and the gang would probably be in a post-apocalyptic world or dimension where they had to band together more than ever to get home. Per interviews with both Joss and Amy.

Ok, she never said I love you to Riley. Fine.  But as for Spike, he didn't try to have sex with any ol' body- it was Harmony.  They had a history together.  He was glad to not be incorporeal anymore, and wanted to celebrate.  He takes Angel's blood, had there been some alcohol around, he would've had that too.  He's sharing blood with Angel, hugging Gunn, and decides to get a leg over.  So what?  How is that OOC under those circumstances?

It isn't. IMHO Spike was being Spike. And like you pointed out he was sleeping with Harmony. They did date, it wasn't as if he seduced her, took her home, sexed her up then tossed her to the curb. She knew what she was getting into. And really, are you going to tell me that Harmony would have refused, no. lol. And yes Spike was at one with both his soul and demon, but he's still a man. Men have needs as well as women. After tossing Harm to the side on Buffy he didn't have anyone else to turn to 'cept maybe his hand. And he did get his itch scratched with Buffy later one. But with harmony in S5A, come on give him a break. He'd just brunt up wearing a piece from the Elizabith Tylor collection, was unable tot ouch or do anything then became whole again. He needed to unwind, lol.

Amen to that, GB

It was a moment when I really hated Spike.  Yeah, they always played Harmony for laughs -- but on more than one occasion in A5 they had her expressing on-going feelings for Spike... which is how he managed to seduce her so easily.  And notice that she did say no first -- and then (cause she's an idiot) all he had to do was give her a look and tell her its a nice skirt, and off she goes.  Then we get this really gross shot of Spike just grunting on her, and not looking at her at all.  And yeah, it's because of the spell or whatever, but when she does freak out, what she says is that she's not going to let him use her, and she tries to kick him off and he punches her lights out.  Somebody using someone for sex when the other person has feelings for them is not a good thing.  And Spike knows this, cause it's what Buffy did to him.  And the only reason we don't care in this case is because Harmony is an idiot and we don't care about *her*.

Now, if Spike had wanted to run off to find some stranger who wanted to get laid, I've got no problem with that.  I get that he was anxious to get back into physical life with gusto.  But having him treat Harmony with the sort of contempt he used to get from Buffy?  It's not making my highlight reel of favorite Spike moments.

Ok, wouldn't compare it to the Spike and Buffy relationship.  Did Spike like Harmony?  Yes, but it was mostly physical for him, which is way obvious.  Harmony is an idiot, however, she was aware that Spike was using her.  She (like many women out there, who sometimes can't resist the guys they care about) just didn't care.  When he told her she had a nice skirt, she gave him a look like, "Okay, let's do it," not, "oh, yes, my blondie bear has finally come back to me and we can go prancing in a field of daisies" look.  She was aware that it was going to be a rough and tumble- she's dealt with Spike before.

In s5 of Buffy, she asks if she can stay with Spike in his crypt to hide from Buffy, and doesn't mind that she has to have sex with him when he wants in order to do so.  "Oh- will I have sex with you?  Well, yea."  She knew for a long time that it wasn't making love with him.

Did he treat her like crap most of the time in s4 when it was an actual relationship (of sorts)?  Absolutely.  But was it as bad as the way Buffy treated Spike?  Not even close.

Almost everything you say here applies to both relationships.  Did Buffy like Spike?  Yes, but it was mostly physical for her, which is way obvious.  Spike is an idiot, however, he was aware that Buffy was using him. He just didn't care.  When she approaches him for sex, he doesn't think she's asking him for a real relationship.  And he often was aware that it was going to be a rough and tumble -- he'd dealt with Buffy before.

It's true that Spike doesn't pound on Harmony, use her for emotional support etc. etc.  So yeah, Buffy is worse.  But on the question of using someone for sex?  Exactly the same.  In fact, I think the writers intentionally wrote the Spike/Harmony thing to be a mirror of the Buffy/Spike thing.

Finally, here's a conversation between Harmony and Spike one episode after their 'innocent' rough and tumble:

Harmony:  "Just one look at you, and she'll forget herself, and she'll get all tingly, and it won't matter how horribly you treated her in the past and how you took her for granted, and..."

SPIKE: I never took her for gr (realizes she's talking about herself) Oh.

And then Spike feels the need to be nice -- offering her consolation for some of her other problems.  So even Spike knows, one episode later, that the way he had treated Harmony sucked.

Basic similarities between the two pairings?  Yes.  But Spike actually believed that Buffy really did have feelings for him.  Hell, she even tells him that.  Harmony wanted Spike to have feelings for her, but she knew that he never did.  As you said, "just one look..." and she lost herself.  She chooses to ignore his treatment, so that they kick it or whatever.  Harmony was his rebound chick and F buddy, and Harmony was well aware of that.  Because of the relationship prior to the sex Spike had with Buffy, he believed it to be more than that, and it was, even if Buffy was ashamed of it. Did it hurt Buffy to see Spike with someone else?  Yes.  Would have hurt Spike to see Harm with another guy?  Absolutely not.  There's the difference.

Was his sexual relationship a highlight of Spike moments?  No, but it most certainly wasn't so bad that I thought it out of character, or made me not like him.  I found the way Xander treated Spike more offensive than that. 

good point maggie, but it still comes down to the fact that harm knew spike only wanted her for sex. she knew this when they were sorta together also. he was a master vamp she a lowly sireless vamp. she attached herself to him for statues, as well as the fact that he was hot and good in bed. and again in agnel, she knew spike only wanted sex from her. she said no, but went along with it anyway, again knowing what she was getting into.

where as with buffy and spike, he's loves bitch, he was blindly following buffy hoping not only to help her but to get her to love him back. its a diffrence. and spike didn't realize what he was doing to harm until she pointed it out to him. again, typical male reaction, lol. their slow, alot passes over their heads before they ever catch on, if they ever catch on.

At least it wasn't quite the actors' fault that scene came off so rough, as the writers had originally intended for it to look like a fluffy, light-hearted shag, pre Harmony going crazy with the plague. The director took it in a different direction, though, and they didn't have time to re-shoot afterwards. No one was happy without how it came off when they saw it back, though.

I really didn't see it in character that Spike that's been all "Buffy, Buffy, Buffy" would hop on a chance with Harmony the second he's corporeal again, though. That wasn't *souled Spike* behavior. That was *pre-soul* behavior to use Harmony like that. He even yells at her to shut up during the act, and doesn't even seem like his typical gentleman self that would have made sure the lady got off, too. That moment of him proposing they find an empty office just didn't jive with who he'd come to be up 'til then. Why on earth would he have *suddenly* been reduced to making base urges a priority over anything else just because he'd been a ghost? It made Spike look like a jerk, like any other guy you'd pick up in a bar. Totally OOC.

Yeah, I also thought that Spike's treatment of Harmony was very awful. I don't even wanna use the excuse of Spike being soulless because if I did, then I can also say that Buffy is justified for treating Spike that way because he's soulless. Whenever Spike comes with Harmony, I get annoyed with him. He wants Buffy to treat him better yet he's a jerk to Harmony. And the sex in season five, wrong, wrong, wrong. Poor Harmony.

I feel a little bad for creating a negative thread, I think I'll create a positive one now.

Scarlet, you and I *really* see the Harmony thing in a different light.  It seems to me that the running gag was that Harmony always thought Spike had feelings for her, always thought she was in a relationship with her Blondie Bear.  The joke was that she was so incredibly deluded about it.  They carry this joke all the way through to A5.

The thing is, from Buffy's POV, Spike would have looked to her exactly the way Harmony looked to Spike.  Spike thought there was a relationship, some feeling there -- but Buffy totally denied it. 

Now, we can say in retrospect that Spike was closer to being right than was Harmony.  But that doesn't change the facts about what Harmony believed.  And Spike had to know that's what she believed because she never said anything BUT that.  And he never cared.  We hate Buffy for not caring about Spike's feelings.  Well, it has to count as a black mark that Spike didn't care about Harmony's feelings.

But at least Spike came around.  After the conversation where he finally gets how he's been treating her, he stops treating her with such total contempt. 

Harmony knew that being with Spike was unhealthy- she tells Cordelia exactly that in "Disharmony."  She also knew that in s5 of Buffy, Spike just wanted to have sex with her, and she agreed.  She wasn't a total moron.  It was different circumstances, and the way Spike treated Harmony had nothing to do with his having a soul or not- his treatment of her didn't change when he got one.  He was amicable with her without a soul, but he could also be a bastard.  At least he was honest about being one. And he didn't keep it a secret like *some* people, denying that they were even together.  And he wasn't underhandedly condescending to her (as Xander was with Anya), and I see that as being worse.  Harmony knew his terms, and eagerly consented to them.  Did she hope for more?  Of course.  But did he make her believe it was more than what it was?  Never, which is also another imperative difference.  He was cruel to her, and used her, but he didn't hide that fact, and didn't play head games with her.  She knew it all, and that's why I don't blame him.  Can't blame him because she allowed herself to be his doormat.

And Spike wasn't Buffy's doormat so much as her personal punching bag, stringing him along, so you can't compare the two. Nope.

As for Spike being OOC, I still don't concur.  He loved Buffy in s5, was willing to die for her and be tortured for the sake of her happiness, and still had sex with Harmony (while thinking about Buffy).  And everyone is trying to differentiate Spike soulless and with a soul, when really, not all that much changed- he's basically the same. The way he loved Buffy at the end of s5 was the same as when he had in s6 and s7 (minus the insanity and extreme solemness at first, but hey, he was adjusting).

Spike also knows that Buffy doesn't love him, that she's using him.  He tries in Gone to stand up for more, but otherwise just keeps going along with it.  And if your criteria for the OK-ness of Spike-Harmony is that Harmony knew the deal and acquiesced -- well, Spike went along with Buffy every ugly step of the way, too.  I guess we can't blame Buffy because Spike allowed himself to be her doormat.  I don't see that Buffy was "stringing" Spike along.  She was quite clear about not loving him, about the fact that she never would love him.  And Spike knows this in B5 ("I know you'll never love me.") and in B7 (We both know it isn't love). 

I did say that Buffy's use of Spike as a punching bag makes things worse -- I'm just talking about the pattern of treating someone who cares for you with contempt and using them for sex.  Buffy certainly treats Spike with contempt, and Spike treats Harmony with contempt.  Please don't read me as extending the comparison further than this one narrow issue.

My thing about OOC is not about having sex with someone other than Buffy.  It's about being so cruel to another person.  I would have thought that by the time we got to A5, Spike would have learned something about not treating people with contempt.  And if I recall correctly, after his realization of what he's doing with Harmony in his conversation with her at the end of Harm's Way, Spike *did* stop being so openly contemptuous with her.  So he was capable of learning and that's IN character -- and since people can have learning moments, I won't push the OOC claim too far.  But I stand pat on ugly.  IT's a saving grace for Spike that he can see that it was ugly and stop doing it.

Also, curious what you make of the fact that Spike with his super-tactile nature appears to live as celibate as a monk in the second half of A5.  Am I wrong in recalling that he doesn't even have a double bed in his apartment?  Yeah, he goes to bars to watch the girls -- but do we ever see him with one?

He didn't have a double bed - you're right on that. At most, it was a twin and a half. And he wasn't shown with any girl in a romantic/sexual capacity the rest of the season. He went back to being just as celibate as he was in BTVS 7. I think he went to the stripper bars just because they leave you alone there, as long as you don't cause a fuss. He could drink in peace without being bothered to dance, either.

CM

Actually, Spike didn't realize that Buffy was using him until s7 in "Never Leave Me."  He wasn't allowing him to be her doormat so much as thinking that he would do whatever he could to help her cope with her many problems, particularly coming back from the grave.  He refers to her as being his girl, and expects her to not see other people because they were in a (secret) relationship.  In fact, we learn in "Normal Again" and "Seeing Red," that he does believe that Buffy loves him, but is denying herself happiness with her whole martyr syndrom thing.  When Dawn tells him that he succeeded in hurting Buffy, well, you can't hurt someone that doesn't care.  Spike did not know that she was just using him.  Even though she said so, he clearly did not believe that until s7.

And I don't agree with Spike treating Harmony with contempt.  Used her, yes, but he wasn't contemptuous with her all of the time- that's just inaccurate.  Buffy treated Spike with contempt most of the time, the same does not apply to Spike's treatment of Harmony.  Spike was mostly annoyed with Harmony, and treated her as a nuisance, or was indifferent, but Buffy treated Spike with disdain.  There's a huge difference.  Spike did not despise Harmony as Buffy despised Spike.  In fact, he's complimented her, and implored her before ("The Real Me") to steer clear of danger (leave the slaying of slayers to the professionals).  If he felt contempt for her, he wouldn't care either way.

And using someone for a quick round of sex does not equate to contempt- it was what it was, just sex.  He wasn't all "Harmony, you make me sick.  But let's have sex, cause I despise you so much," as Buffy loved to do.  It was more a "hey, now I'm corporeal finally, and Harmony you look good and feel really nice- let's both get a leg over."

As for the second half of Angel s5, we don't have to see Spike with girls- you can have sex in a single bed (Anya and Xander in Spike's little cot in s7), assuming he even bothered to take the girls back to his place and not theirs, or an alley, or the place he picked them up in. You really don't need a bed to have sex, anyway. Just cause he wasn't in a relationship doesn't mean wasn't getting laid.  In s7 of Buffy, he was still going out, talking to women because he couldn't talk to Buffy.  I don't see why he wouldn't have sex, especially when she's on an entire other continent.  My guess is it just didn't happen with the same someone, so there was no point in bringing it up.  We only see Angel have sex cause he was in a relationship.  We never see a character really have a one night stand unless it's with a character who will appear more than once, and in Angel s5, there were way too many other story lines to deal with then to take the time to shoot several seconds of Spike having sex with some random chick.  Spike is very sexual in nature- he's always doing something (strip clubs, wanking off, as he so eloquently puts it, fighting, whatever), and I'm sure that in some cases, a non descript someone.  My guess is, he probably found a string of short blondes to entertain himself with from time to time.

Well, I don't think we are going to come to any kind of agreement on this.  Neither relationship was non-stop contempt.  But both had plenty of contemptuous moments.  You are focusing on the contemptuous side of B/S and the non-contemptuous side of S/H (such as it was), and downplaying the other sides.  All I can say is that I would have *hated* to be in Harmony's situation with Spike, just as I would have hated to be in Spike's situation with Buffy.

As for Spike believing that Buffy loved him.  He certainly hoped it.  But he tried to kick her out in Gone because he saw what the deal is.  And in the alley way he conceded that he was trying to NOT love Buffy cause he could see that it was a raw deal.  In fact, I attribute 99% of the 'negative' Spike stuff in B6 to his frustration/anger with the situation with Buffy... the nasty stuff he said to her was his way of trying to get his own back -- but he never just leaves cause he's love's bitch, etc. etc.  Much like Harmony just couldn't say no to Spike, even though she complained about his treatment of her.

Well, we're just going round and round.  About the celibacy thing -- I suppose we can read in anything we want and say that the writers just didn't show it.  I'd say the fact that we ARE shown scenes of Spike in bars, and when we see them there's never girls in the picture suggests that you are reading in something against the grain of what is suggested by what we did see.  And Spike says he was "just" talking to the girls in B7 -- in a context which would have him assuring Buffy that it was nothing more.  So I tend to think that from Anya on the table top to Harmony in the office, there was a drought for Spike, and I tend to think it continued thereafter.  But no, we don't have a 24/7 Spike-cam to consult on the question. 

Um... Harmony was the rebound girl- Spike didn't hate himself when he was with her as Buffy hated herself for being with Spike (in s6).  We see Spike having sex with Anya or Harmony because we know who they are- they're regulars.

And when I referred to Spike talking to women, I know it was just talking in s7.  I'm saying if he even went through the trouble to talk to them when Buffy was around because he was feeling lonely, then why not take it there or further when she was no where near him?  Spike on Angel s5 was more about being himself, and doing what made him happy because he didn't have anyone to please or look down on him (what with "Angel's Avengers" being accepting of him and who and what he was), so he was free to be himself and do what he liked.  Spike likes sex, so I assume he did that too.  His main thing was proving how much he wasn't like Angel, so sitting around, brooding, and being celibate would definitely be the opposite of that.  But no, we'll never see eye to eye on this, so I'll conclude my thoughts here for the moment, and see if someone else will weigh in

But it was fun to argue about it -- and a great excuse to not keep ploughing through my homework.  Plus it's a first for me -- I'll defend Spike against almost any negative charge.  I mean, I seriously think that the only way to read BtVS/AtS is to understand that it's really (REALLY) All. About. Spike.  Strange to take the other side for once.  Anyway, we agree on stuff like the so-called AR, etc.

Yes, that's true Maggie.  We do agree on the not so AR, and that the both shows were all about Spike.  If it hadn't been for him, I would've stopped watching Buffy, eventually.  The Riley story arc made me sick, and s4, I didn't really watch after less than half way through the show until s5 rolled around, and I watched reruns to find out the things I missed. 

Oh, I remember the first time I saw "School Hard," and I was just drawn in!  Even if he was all "evil," I couldn't stop rooting for him, hoping he'd get more air time.  He just melted my twelve year old heart. Sigh   You know, they should really get a "I <3 Spike" smiley.  I'd probably use it all the time...  And those first few sentences probably prove that Spike could rarely if ever do any wrong in my eyes.  If I had been Harmony, for the most part, I'm not sure how much I'd care...  Although I think she went easy on him when she shot him with that arrow- I so would've kicked his ass, and beat him with something heavy and blunt.  Okay, off topic.

Great point - you need that contrast to make his journey meaningful - it is tempting to forget just how bad pre-chip Spike could be, HLOD is another great reminder.  Going from the Spike that so casually will test out a potential gem by staking his current companion to Spike from Intervention is a huge change.

slaymesoftly:
"...he has to talk himself into attacking the woman when he thinks the chip has failed..."  

Another wonderful connection with this scene is his lines about the natural ability, like something learned in childhood that one never forgets - Spike leaving behind his natural vamp behavior.

GoldenBuffy"
"Like others have said, I don't really have a problem with Spike. The whole bit with chaning both Buffy and Dru up, like Patti said, he's a vampire in his mind it made perfect sense."

We should remember that this is the same behavior that Spike applies to his other  Love, Drusilla - tie her up.

Maggie2:
About A5:  Was Angel really portrayed as a hero?  He's working for an evil law firm because he made a deal to mind-wipe all of his friends (which Cordy totally calls him on).  He decides to go out with a big bang -- which involves killing a totally innocent person in cold blood (Drogan), risking the lives of his crew and anyone else in downtown LA who runs into the hordes of nasty beasts who come as a result of what he does, and he orders the cold-blooded execution of Lindsey -- and all for what?  To stop the world from going on the way it normally does.  Yes, they always have Angel in the hero-posture, dominating the screen and all of that.  But what they show him doing is all really very morally bankrupt.  Compare that to Spike's selfless and glorious sacrifice in The Chosen.

And the writers did acknowledge Spike's essential superiority to Angel when they realized that there was no way they could justify having Angel beating Spike in the fight over the destiny cup.  Spike won that battle because he's the true hero.  All the rest of the stuff that made Spike look lesser than Angel is just window-dressing.  The big theme of the season was that appearances don't match reality.

WESLEY
And how does your kind define "love"?

DEMON
Same as all bodies. Same as everywheres. Love is sacrifice."</i>
The implication is that love is defined the same among demons as with humans even if the one word definition is simplistic.

As for the actual thread question...The AR in Seeing red bothers me to no end.  There were other things they could have done to make him go get the soul if they felt they had to do so.  I felt he was harsh with Harmony when they were together but at least he WAS honest about his lack of feeling.  Can't really blame him for the zipless fuck (he never unzipped for heavens sake!) on Angel though.  I hated some of the dialogue they gave him on Angel it seemed out of character from the vampire we saw on Buffy.  In particular is the way he refered to the sex with Buffy in a way that made it less lovemaking and more Fu**ing when talking to Angel (I think he would have emphasized the love ESPECIALLY to Angel), his blowing off the comments from FakeRoger about when the Council saw him in action eating kids in an orphanage.  I think souled Spike would have been less casual at that reminder.

That's about it..nothing I can't wank in fic *G*.

Kathleen