Ok, I'm not trying to start a great and epic battle, lol. But I just want to see what everyone else thinks. I really really hat those fics that turn Spike human. Now don't get me wrong. I like some all human fics, I'm talking about fics set in the Buffyverse were she is the slayer and Spike is a vamp and through some means he's turned human. I've read only two turned human Spike fics that I've enjoyed, but they still left me feeling hallow. Wanting Spike to get revamped.

There was one fic that I didn't like so much and stopped reading were it was made that Spike didn't enjoy being a vamp. Ok, I may be slow but he did enjoy being a vamp why would he no longer want to be one since he was now in love with Buffy? He got a soul for that reason. I just feel that once you strip Spike of his demon he now becomes half or less of who he was. He' sno longer Spike, do I make sense? And plus, if he's Buffy equal how can he be her equal without super human powers? Once those are gone then he's just human like Xander, Riley, Parker and the others. Now I have no problem were the author keeps him a vamp but through some magic or what ever he may have a heart beat, and produce children, but fully human is down in my book. Just my mini rant.

Yowza. Okay, first let me just say that Spike, shanshued and sans demon or whatever, would still never be on the level of Xander, Parker and Riley. God, that's a nasueating thought...

My feeling is this- injecting a heartbeat or a soul doesn't get rid of the demon.  Or if such a thing did "cleanse" Spike of his demon in fic or otherwise, that still doesn't chnage his memories, and doesn't change his personality.  He'd still be Spike, just without the super powers and all the vamp hindrances. Just like William and all his thoughts and feelings are still present within Spike (even though he didn't have a soul for so long).

True, Spike enjoys being a vampire to the fullest extent, and as a vampire, yes, he's Buffy's equal (though physically, she's still stronger than him), but not just because of his demon- it's so much more than that.  He gets her- all of her- the woman, the girl, and the slayer parts, and isn't envious or over protecting of any of the facets that make up  Buffy. 

 However, should the day come that Buffy was to love and be in love with Spike fully as he is with her, I don't think he'd mind trading in the super powers so that he could be in the sun with her, and give her "something alive," as JM mentioned (somewhere).  He's been a vampire for about twelve decades- and fought the hell out of Angel so he could be the one to shanshu- be human, and thus not a vampire anymore.  It's really not so far fetched...

That being said, I get why some fans just don't understand "human Spike" within canon, and some like him down right evil (or insane, or both), and depending upon the fic and the author, it works.  But yea, "Destiny" totally proves that he'd have been okay with being human.

Good topic ;)

I like fics with human Spike as long as it's set in the Buffyverse. I quite like it when he gets shanshued or magically grows a heartbeat, but I can't handle fics where Buffy isn't the slayer, because if Buffy isn't the slayer and there's no such thing as vamps... well, it's just... it doesn't feel like i'm reading about buffy and spike, it's just like reading about someone called buffy and spike... get what i mean... it's not them!! Unless it's done really well, if it's too much out of character, i'm just not into it. If Spike gets a heartbeat it doesn't matter if he does or doens't retain his superhuman powers, as long as they're still living in the same world, they are still somewhat in character and have their character's personality traits that we all know and love... and they are still them. Spike can turn human, but Buffy can't be non slayery... in my opinion anyway! To me, being the slayer is part of what makes Buffy, Buffy. So when Buffy's not the slayer and no vamps around, for me IMO that = :down:

Basically, as long as there are still vamps in the world and buffy's still the slayer, I'll read it :) Tho I still prefer Spike all with the grrrr :D

William fics on the other hand... I thought i would hate them because essentially it isn't Spike, but for some reason i can't resist reading them..... and I always end up loving them :)

I gotta go with GoldenBuffy on this one.  I think a lot of what was going on with Riley towards the end of their realtionship arc was about the fact that Buffy couldn't handle being with a human because she isn't fully human herself.  And I think Spike likes being a vampire, especially since he's so good at it.  But even more than that, I think that the demon and the man are inseparable at this point.  I'm sorta attached to the notion of vampires being demons who "wear" the bodies and brains of dead humans.  So the demon uses William's brain to think thoughts and evaluate feelings, but I don't see William as being "alive" in any real way.  Plus, Spike sees Drusilla and Angel as his parents just as much as he does William's mum (maybe even more so).  So it would kind of be like saying you were going to suddenly strip all of my Mom's genes out of me or something, but then you'd be left with only half a person...and probably, a bit of a mess to clean up  :)

I don't mind fics that have Spike being turned human as long as he gets to keep some of his strengths, I don't think of the Shansu as being a reward if you are going to be turned into cannon fodder. So if Spike got the Shansu, then I would hope it would be sort of like him being a male slayer.

Scarlet I still have to disagree with you. Yeah JM said that, but still I think Spike wouldn't want to lose his super powers not even to walk in the sunlight with Buffy. I mean hey, he could always get the ring back from Angel for that. :D Then he still could stay grrr. Maybe the Shansu wasn't even real. maybe it was something created by the PTB which they never really decided to follow through with. Or maybe getting shansu means the heart beat, sunlight walking but one still keeps their powers. Spike and William are one, but if you remove one from the other then Spike is no longer the same person. And no I didn't mean he would be like Xander or Riley, but as far as being human he would be on their level now, and no longer an option for Buffy. Buffy can't do normal human male, she needs a little monster in her man. Spike has to stay a vamp, lol.

I can't fully agree with GoldenBuffy here. Okay, Spike as a real, soulless vampire did enjoy his demon, his superpowers and the whole 'being through society rules' gig. True. But Spike with a soul? I mean, it was William's soul, the part that was making him truly human. Can you imagine gentle William enjoying being a corpse? I think that indeed, he wanted to be stronger, to be independent, but... he was a good man. What he wanted was the possibility of breaking the rules, of being above them, but being a vampire is something truly horrible, how could he accept that? 

Okay, but the problem is far more complex, 'cos the soul's William, but the memories, behaviour and appearance are Spike's. So IMO after getting his soul back he constantly struggles with his human and demon selves.

But I think that it's possible that he wanted to be human. 

I don't think of the Shansu as being a reward if you are going to be turned into cannon fodder. So if Spike got the Shansu, then I would hope it would be sort of like him being a male slayer.

Oh, yeah? Just watch them :) PTBs are the meanest powers in this universe - I think that Shanshue is exactly this: pure humanity. And maybe no memories. That's the funniest part, IMO. I've read a few good fics featuring shanshued Spike - some of them made him weak, some of them strong but without any memories and I liked that.

I have to put in a plug for Spike's Heart's WIP "Beloved".  Fallen Angel recommended it, and it's really great.  Anyway, in it, Spike gets the Shanshu alright -- he comes back as a baby!  And Angel gets saddled with the job of raising him!  Sounds like a weird premise, but it's really great.  Plus, if more people read it, maybe she'll actually finish it!  (It's over at SR).  Oh yeah, and it's Spuffy, in a totally engrossing way (and no, Buffy's not cooing over him and changing his diapers).

Just gotta say... I think its so cool how inventive some writers get with this material.  If a million lost boys typed for a million years they would have never dreamt up something like that "Beloved" example above.  Its just so interesting how much creative mileage ppl get out of these characters. 

But GB- regardless if the Shanshu prophecy was real or fake, or if it just gave him a heartbeat, etc., Angel and Spike were both under the impression that it would make them plain human again, and they both fought desperately for that, referring to it as a "prize," and "the ultimate redemption."  So in canon, Spike would've been okay with becoming human, even if Buffy was on the other side of the pond... And if becoming human didn't erase Spike's memories as a demon, or William's, then personality wise, it's still Spike.  Just like when he was chipped- he couldn't perform fully as a vampire, but it didn't change the 'tude.  As for Buffy, the only reason she needs a little monster in her man is because it's that darkness that could relate to her darkness, and Spike (assuming he would retain all memories) would remember what it was like, and could still relate to her.  Would he be able to spar with her as much or as hard as he did before?  No, but IMHO, that would be the only main difference, and brute strength isn't what attracted Buffy to Spike in the first place, and vice versa.  As Buffy said in "Out of my Mind," it isn't all about super powers. Sexiness aside, Spike had personality :D.

Oh, and Angel destroyed the ring, so...

Hmm... interesting thread so far. To answer GB's original question, I don't have a problem with fics that turn Spike human - I actually have an outline for one where he shanshus. Hadn't gotten as far as working out whether he keeps the superstrength, but honestly, that's not really an issue for me. I'll do whatever works best for the story. I don't think making him human means he isn't still Spike. He'd still have his memories and experiences as a vampire (at least, in my mind, he does... I suppose you could write it any way you wanted, though), and that would definitely color his approach to life as a human. If he became human and *didn't* remember anything, then yeah, that's not Spike. That's William, or someone completely different, if he doesn't remember being human before, either.

I also agree with Scarlet about Spike wanting to be human - I'm sure part of the fight in Destiny was about taking something away from Angel, but I don't think he could've beaten Angel unless he really wanted it. I know we've seen that he enjoys being a vampire - but especially now that he has the soul, I think at least part of him wouldn't mind getting that reward eventually.

I disagree, in some sense, with the "monster in her man" theory of Buffy boyfriends. I don't think Buffy *can't* be with someone human - yes, she needs someone who understands the Slayer part of her, but there are others besides vampires who could offer that. Spike turned human would understand her no less than he did as a vampire. I'd even say that a human with the right kind of experience could understand the Slayer (like, for example, Robin Wood).  It's not just about strength and fighting skills and not being fragile during sex. If that's all Buffy wanted, she could screw any old demon. I think the most important thing that Buffy needs is that understanding - I mean, look at Angel. He's a vampire, he had the strength, and if they'd wanted to, they could've worked out the sex thing. So, by that reasoning, he should've been a good match. But the reason he wasn't was because he didn't understand the Slayer. He wanted her to have a normal life, which is completely contrary to what a Slayer is. So, it's not just the "monster" that Buffy needs - it's more than that. And of everyone she dated, vampire and human, only Spike really understood her. I think that makes human Spike a better match than any vampire or demon would be.

And as far as Riley is concerned, lostboy, I disagree with you. I do think that their problems stemmed from Riley not being as strong as Buffy - but I think that was *Riley's* problem, not Buffy's. Riley was the one who couldn't handle it. And if he hadn't been such an ass about it, I think Buffy would've been okay with dating someone weaker than her. She didn't seem to mind when Angel was human and weaker - again, it was the guy who had the problem, and Angel chose to be a vampire again (which, actually, makes his quest for shanshu kinda weird... but that's a different topic).

I think Spike is more secure in himself than either Riley or Angel, and if he were to turn human, I think he'd want to help Buffy as much as he could, but he wouldn't be an idiot about being weaker than her. Hell, he's weaker than her as a vampire, and he seems okay with that.

Oh, and GB - Spike can't get the Gem of Amara back from Angel. Angel smashed it in In the Dark... what a dumbass (Angel, that is, not you).

As with just about everything in fan fiction (except all-human fics, about which we will not speak), so much depends on the story and the writer. A realy  good writer can make anything seem real and right - no matter what a reader's personal preferences may be. Having said that, I'm a bit partial to Spike shanshuing into a male slayer, or keeping some of his vampire enhancements, or, as happens in some fics, being revamped at some point.  However, fully human Spike would in no way be the William he was before being a vamp for 126 + years, so human or not, I suspect he would be a pretty amazing guy to have, vampire powers or no. :)

I tend to agree with the opinion that the Shanshu thing wouldn't necessarily change anyone's personality (although the course of how that persona would develop from then on would certainly change).  

I understand what Eowyn's saying too.  But the only problem I'm having is that one of the major breakthroughs in Buffy's physical relationship with Spike happened the moment she realized he could hurt her again.  IMO there's something very "kinky" going on at the bottom of their relationship, and I think a big part of that has to do with the rough stuff.   And while I think it's true  that Buffy would still "have feelings" for human Spike, I think eventually he'd wind up in the friendzone with Xander if he couldn't deliver the hi-velocity viscosity.   

But also I actually never really thought the "becoming human" thing was really about walking in the sunlight or not having to drink blood.  I think the part of the vampire curse that was bugging them the most was not being able to age and, eventually, die.  That just seems to be the worst part of the curse if you're in love with a human, having to watch them age and die helplessly, and knowing you'll be alone forever after that.  I don't think they wanted to destroy their demons, necessarily, or change who they were inside.  I think they we're just willing to risk that sort of stuff for the opportunity to age.  Kinda like Highlander.

*que Queen theme music* 

I totally forgot that Angel destoryed the ring, drat, lol. Oh well. Maybe on some level Spike does what to become human again, but I'm going with the opinion that he hasn't though out the disadvantages of being human bring, lol. Him as a vamp is better not only for himself but mankind as well. He's a champion and has the powers to help them and further the cause of good. As a plan human he wouldn't have any of those. So Spike as a human wouldn't work for me. And I still dislike vamp turned human Spike fics, lol.  But it's good to see everyones views on the subject, glad I started it. *not patting onself on the back* Everyone also brought some good points too. But for me Spike as a human doesn't work. Maybe give him some human quailites but don't take away the demon.

About the kinky thing - I think a lot of that has to do with Buffy's mindset at the time. If they'd gotten together at any other point, I doubt it would have been like that. IMO, a big part of Buffy's willingness to be kinky was that she had come back "wrong" - so, in her mind, it wasn't really her doing those things, or it wasn't her fault. So yeah - the beginning of their physical relationship coincides with him being able to hurt her - but it also coincides with him telling her she came back wrong. And almost as soon as Tara tells her she *didn't* come back wrong, she stops doing it.

Notice that their relationship in season 7 contains no violence or kink at all. True, they don't go as far as sex, but she clearly has feelings for him, yet doesn't seem to be interested in the rough stuff they did before. I think it's because she's at a different place emotionally, and doesn't need that release anymore.

Also, as Scarlet said, I don't think Buffy's attraction to Spike is solely, or even mostly, about the brute force. There was an obvious attraction before he could hurt her - when she started kissing him in OMWF, he was still chipped, and I'd say there's evidence she was attracted to him even before season 6. As was also pointed out, Buffy herself says it's not just about the strength.

Hey Eowyn, as for the no sex in s7, there is the alleged "basement scene" that we never get to see... Okay, that's not what I intended to say, apparently, in "Dead Things" when she beats him up, the writer of the ep says that she was really "beating up herself, and calling herself an 'evil, soulless thing that's dead inside.'"  Ch'yea...

Oh, and as for Spike turned human (well, Slayer) fic, Nautibitz's "Heart Don't Lie" kicks major ass you guys, seriously.  It's only missing the epilogue, and is the continuation of Saber Shadowkitten's "Humping Like Bunnies."  It's locked, and you have to ask for permission I believe.  But it will (if some of it hasn't already) been posted on her site, which is down, so check it out LJ:

http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=nautific&keyword=HDL+Complete&filter=all

I love Spike in all his various incarnations: shy human William, newly vamped William, evil Spike, chipped Spike, babysitter Spike, soulless Spike, souled Spike, and Shanshued Spike with superpowers, and even Shanshued Spike with no superpowers.  Spike is adaptable and a survivor.  He adapts to being a vampire, he adapts to losing Drusilla (although it does take an inordinate amount of whiskey and a rebound with Harmony), he adapts to being chipped, he adapts to getting his soul back (after waxing poetic with the basement rats).  And I think that he would adapt to being human once again. 

To me, Spike is the same man in every form that he takes and every persona that he projects.  The core of his being--no matter if he's human or demon, soulless or souled--is Love.  It's his driving force, the primary motivation in every significant thing that he does.  Spike is sexual love, familial love, romantic love, nurturing love.  And I think that, as long as a writer keeps Spike's key characteristics in mind, she or he can write a convincing Shanshued Spike.

We interrupt this thread to bring you the following message:

It's actually funny that this topic should come up 'cause I recently had the idea of starting up a new community for Shanshu fic.  There are tons of places to read about Spike and Angel as vampires, but I've read some really great stories where either of them is part or all human, and I'd like to archive them in one place.  I'm still working out the kinks and gathering writers to post their stories.  I'd like to have any fic featuring any of the major vamps becoming human again (I've even read one with Drusilla becoming human) for whatever reason, or even part human, etc.  So, if anyone has read or written any fics, feel free to recommend them to me :)  The community's gonna be called "Shanshu Bugaboo." 

We now leave our shameless plug to return to our regularly scheduled thread...

Oh, Scarlet, I totally second your recommendation of Heart Don't Lie. One of my favorite fics right now.

I've heard that explanation of Dead Things - and isn't it right after that, when Tara tells her she's the same Buffy, and then she suddenly changes her behavior? I think she really does believe she's somewhat soulless, definitely dead inside, and that's why she let herself do what she does with/to Spike. 

And a big AMEN to IB... that's all so true.

IB... I have written a couple, both Shanshued Spike with superpowers, and Shanshued Spike with no superpowers...  A Fortune Told which is one of my first fics and in severe need of some reworking LOL, and an angsty little ficlet called  We All Have Destinations

If you haven't read it you MUST read Anaross' My Life Closed Twice it is brilliant.

I don't think I said that the only reason or the main rason why Buffy was drawn to Spike was because of the sex. I don't believe that. I also think if we believe it or not a lot of us have a darker side or a kinky side and there is nothing wrong with that, and I don't believe Buffy thought that her kink came from her coming back wrong. She used that as an excuse (this is just my opinion). Buffy goes into denial on many things, and this could have been one. Sure maybe when the whole sex thing started between then she thought that way and she was hoping this was the reason behind her doing the things she did with Spike. But I'm sure if they had gotten back together in S7 or later on there would have been kink. There is nothing wrong with kink,lol.

Nope, still don't like him human, it doesn't work for me. Spike is who is is because of both his human side and demon side. For me, and this is me speaking for myself he is not the same if he is no longer a vamp. He wouldn't be any good as cahmpion, period. I've read Nautibitz's and like I said before that was one of the ones I've read and enjoyed, but it still left me feeling like I was missing something. Spike needs to be a vamp for me or he's not the same.

I have no problem with Dru or the others being turned human, well sometimes I have a grip with Angel too, but I get over it. And like I said before I'm not knocking any author in their ablilities, yes one can make a very good story with him becoming and staying human, but for me I don't like it. :)

I'm with you, GoldenBuffy. Human Spike is not real Spike any more.

I have read few fics featuring Spike as human and only one I liked.
It was "A Terrible Thing" by Herself. Spike got Shanshued and at the end he hated it. Hated being just a man. The transfomation literally destroyed him. (It's not a spoiler becouse it's just the begining of the story!).

It's very sad story (but gets better in the secon part) and that sadness felt right. Spike without his vampiric part - sad picture.

And the story you can find here:

http://www.echonyc.com/~stax/Buffy/herself/terriblething1.html

IB - I think that's an amazing idea! I'd contribute/read there for sure. I've got a few future fics with one or the other of the guys shanshued - Life Goes On is one - I'll have to make sure I've got the urls right for the Angel ones and hunt up the other Spike one.  

And, I totally second Always_jbj - you must read My Life Closed Twice. It is amazing.  Also, Lizerrrbeathan's The Book of William.   They rock.

It's a pretty well-established theme in the Buffyverse that people take out their own feelings about themselves upon the faces/bodies of someone else. Faith beating Buffy (in Faith's body) while she tells her how disgusting and worthless she is; and the, the obvious one, Buffy beating Spike and saying things that are really more about how she feels about herself than about him. I had another example in the back of my mind, but it's escaped me now and I have to get ready for work. 

I've been reading My Life Closed Twice, on your recommendation, Always - it's so wonderful! Plus it's a two-for-one deal: you get a poetry lesson and fanfic, all in one story! I've learned more about poetry reading that fic than I ever did in English class.

LOL...maybe it has something to do with the teacher?

There's a little fic with Shanshued now human Spike at ff.net called "Gifts" by Maia1. Right now, it's a Dawn and Spike friendship fic, but could go Spuffy......The detail I really liked is that she chose to have him pop up with William's body...the last point he'd been human, you know? And he had to deal with William's immune system being exposed to now. Good story so far, though it hasn't been updated in a bit.

Hi all - Did everyone forget that Angel was human for a day (paused to have sex with Buffy) then realized that he wasn't strong enough to fight with her anymore and asked to become a vampire again?  The price was having Buffy mindsucked.  Real nice, Angel. 

I'm pretty sure that in Destiny (A5) the Shanshu is reported (by the unreliable source Sirk) that the vampire champion will endure tortures blah blah blah and become human.  No details given that I remember.  Spike races to the place where the prophecy is supposed to occur and beats the crap out of Angel in order to win the cup.  Does he want to be human?  Sure sounded like he did at the time, although later he decides he doesn't care.

As soon as I say I don't like a particular kind of fic, some smart alecky writer comes along and proves me wrong.  I've seen some good fics with Human William. 

LOL, Always, if only Spike had been my English teacher... *sigh* Though I did have an economics professor who had a teaching style like Spike's in MLCT.

Spikez_tart - *I* remembered Angel was human for a day! *pouts* And the fact that he wanted to be a vampire again, as I mentioned, makes his quest for shanshu kinda silly. Spike, on the other hand, I don't see making that choice. If he were human - especially if he fought and sacrificed for it, to win the shanshu - I think he'd stay that way. I don't see Spike fighting for something, only to give it up because it's not what he expected.

I thought Angel gave it up because... it wasn't apart of the PTB plan or something, and jumping the gun would *somehow* result in Buffy's death, as they explained it to him. He believed it, at any rate.  Mohra demon blood isn't a shanshu...

They told him Buffy would die in the future...and she did. Angel was supposed to choose to prevent that by *doing* (in the PTBs mind), but he just had the day taken back and let her go back to Sunnydale. Love was supposed to win out there, but what they had wasn't enough. Which I also think was a point of the PTBs.

CM

I'm going to add these fics to my list for Shanshu Bugaboo.  "My Life Closed Twice" is already on my list.  I read Anaross' "Long Day's Journey," and it was practically perfect in every way.  If MLCT is half as good, I'm sure that I'll enjoy it.  Thanks for the recs, and I'll keep you posted on the community :)