BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

I Love You?

Jun 13 2007 03:33 am   #1FetchingMadScientist

I just wondered, did anyone else think that Buffy was a real well...witch to Spike in season seven, even after she knew about the soul?

And does her treatment of him make her declaration of love suspect, even if she did mean it?  I mean- I don't remember her ever treating Angel like she did Spike.  She did everything but call him a baby and a whimp in "Get It Done."

I don't really blame Spike for not believing her.  What do you think?

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Jun 13 2007 05:59 am   #2ZoeGrace

Most people already know what I think on this topic, but I'll say it again anyway.  I think she needed to be spanked.  And that's not just me turning everything into something kinky.  She doesn't have to like it, she just really needs to be turned over someone's knee and blistered. 

Jun 13 2007 06:05 am   #3lostboy

It's funny - being a guy - but sometimes I think I'm the only one around these parts who feels bad for Buffy.  Total outsider, asked for so much, given so little...  maybe I'm a softee.

Anyway, I also seem to be the only one who believed her I-L-Y in Chosen. 

Yeah, she wants him, wants things from him, is disapointed in him, and occasionally tries to kill him.

Sounds like love to me.

Jun 13 2007 06:11 am   #4ZoeGrace

hahaha @ "yeah she wants him, wants things from him, is disappointed in him,and occasionally tries to kill him.  Sounds like love to me."

ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!

and yes, you are a softie.  Don't give in to the pouty Buffy face.

Jun 13 2007 07:38 am   #5goddess_hecate

While her timing and treatment did make the ILY itself suspect, I believe her because of the look in her eyes in Beneath You.  I was watching the scene in the church the other day and you can see her sudden comprehension and her love in the scene.  

I don't think she was especially awful to him in during s7, I just don't think she spent much -any- time thinking about being in love (with the exception of Him, which is a stupid episode IMHO), simply because she was too busy trying to save the world.  And he was spending an awful lot of time brooding.  If she needed Angel she would have called him back to SunnyD.  She simply didn't have time to coddle him.

Speaking of the Great Poof, someone mentioned that she must not have loved Spike because she never treated him as she treated Angel.  Of course she didn't.  She never loved Spike and Angel in the same way.  Her love for Angel was very immature.  She was willing to go along with a lot of what he said and did because she was too afraid to lose him.  Buffy's love for Spike (and I'm convinced down to my socks that she loved him) was more painful, but more honest.  She and Spike didn't lie to each other or sugar coat things.  Of course she treated Spike differently.

All that said, I totally don't blame Spike for not believing her.  I wouldn't have either, half the times she was nice to him he was insane or she was The First.  And the timing was horrible.  Still, I like to think that she was trying to tell him that she loved him during their conversation in End of Days.

Jun 13 2007 09:19 am   #6Always_jbj

You're not alone, Lostboy. I like Buffy, and I really feel for her a lot of the time.

I not only think she meant the 'I love you' but I also think that Spike believed her.

Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


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Jun 13 2007 10:39 am   #7Guest

I believe she meant it.

I'm not convinced Spike believed her, simply because from everything we know of him, if he was 100% sure he was loved back in the romantic sense, he would have gone to her the second he was flesh again. If he was sure of his place of being loved, he wouldn't have even had to think. And all I need to come to that conclusion is to have watched him on BTVS, then hear that he came back as a ghost, then didn't go to Buffy when he was corporeal. (Being contracted to AtS doesn't matter for the argument.)

I didn't start believing she loved (more than friends) until she rescued him from the First - that look on her face of being so relieved he was more-or-less intact - and then her slip of "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?" - classic Buffy denial when she's too busy for human matters.

Do I think she was in the right for berating him like that in public in "Get It Done"? No. Do I think that was an action of not loving him, more than being stressed and not wanting to carry the entire war on her own shoulders? Also no. She's right in saying that everyone needs to step up and give their best at what they do. She was wrong in her delivery.

But yeah, Spike totally has reason to doubt - especially because he NEVER had a woman love him back romantically like he did them. He needed plain words at that time in his life, and she couldn't/wouldn't do that until she knew *there was no time left*. Because in typical Buffy fashion, she thought there would *be* more time. I think she refused to accept that Spike would die in that final battle - he was a survivor, and he was the one that kept coming back.

Caro Mio

Jun 13 2007 10:43 am   #8Guest

As far as Angel goes, she did try to push him around when she went to L.A. after Faith. Every time we saw Buffy and Angel interact once she was an adult, it was under special circumstances - Faith, he was human, her mother's death, and then the amulet bringing. I definitely think by season 7, she would have yelled at Angel, too, if she thought he wasn't helping when he could.

CM

Jun 13 2007 12:21 pm   #9slaymesoftly

Not much that hasn't been covered already - just chiming in with my opinion.  There are times, watching the DVDs, when I think Buffy is a major bitch to Spike (all seasons) - but I have to remind myself that, as sexy as he is, he was an evil(ish) vampire and had given her no reason not to hate him. Spike's tongue is pretty sharp and he often gave as good as he got.

I always felt for Buffy - she endured a lot of trauma and heartbreak at a very young age; not including the whole "Chosen One - must save the world" thing that she had going on.  By Season VII, I think her affection for Spike was showing pretty well; she was just too overwhelmed with battling the First to deal with it.  She took him for granted - which is, in its own way, something of an example of how comfortable the relationship was. There were lots of telling incidents throughout that season; I just don't think, once things really got rolling, that she had time to deal with the relationship. It was easy to put off telling him she loved him and to deal with what that would change, by telling herself that she would worry about them after the apocalypse.  Then suddenly there was no more time and she had to blurt it out before he was gone.

I agree, though, that Spike probably didn't believe her.  Timing is everything. LOL  He knew she cared about him, but with her waiting until the last second like that, he wouldn't have believed that she meant it the way he wanted her to mean it.  We have to fix it. That's why we write fan fic! LOL

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jun 13 2007 11:21 pm   #10Scarlet Ibis

I think Buffy loved him in s6, but I feel that she just refused to ever admit to it for oh so many reasons, but mostly because she was afraid.  She was afraid then, and probably even more afraid in s7.  Afraid that she could love a soulless being, that she was "wrong," that her friends wouldn't approve, etc.  Even in s7, she initially backs down to the condescending remarks about Spike, and lies about why she's helping him (blaming it on getting closer to the thing "beneath them" as opposed to just helping him).  Eventually, she gets some back bone, and isn't afraid to show her affection for him, and need to protect him. 

Of course, that wasn't enough- Spike didn't believe her (IMHO).

She spent too much time being a bitch to him.  He believed that she cared about him, and that she believed in him, but her poor treatment of him, her indifference, her "I'm not ready for you to not be here" as opposed to "I don't want you to leave," and the Angel kissage was all too much for him to say, "well, she loves me."  Either way, he didn't need her to love him back, which is pretty much what he tells her in "Empty Places." 

And I agree, that had Spike believed her, he would have gone to her when he was made flesh again (they couldn't get SMG, fine, and Spike was supposed to be there the whole season, also fine, but he could have left for half an episode or a week, and we could've seen him at an airport or whatever, and he could've come back and talked to Angel about how it all went, and what Buffy's been up to, and how they're on their own paths, yada yada yada if the writers truly felt that Spike believed her and had reason to see her).  But meh, in canon, Spangel made more sense anyways ;)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 14 2007 01:26 am   #11Immortal Beloved

I've been involved in many a forum debate on whether or not Buffy loved Spike and whether or not she meant her "I love you" in "Chosen."  I'm generally in the minority with my opinion, but I believe it so strongly that I feel the need to say it again:

Buffy loved Spike, and she meant it when she told him that she loved him. 

I have my theories about when she fell in love with him (the kiss in "Intervention"), why she waited so long to tell him ('cause she's a confused, heartbroken idiot with a severe fear of abandonment by men, not-so-delusional delusions of grandeur, and impeccably bad timing), and why I believe, without a doubt, that she meant what she said.  But I'll just get into why I believe the "I love you" was true.

She did tell Angel that she loved him, all of the time, in fact.  And that turned out so well that his soul went on sabbatical, he nibbled on half of her school, murdered her favorite teacher, stalked her friends and family, killed Willow's gold fish, tortured her Watcher, and tried to have the world sucked into hell.  So, for Buffy, love soulless vampire = mayhem and death.  Why would she admit to Spike--or even herself--that she loved him before he had a soul?

Which brings me to my next point: Buffy had enough trouble telling the people that we know that she loved that she loved them: Giles, Dawn, Joyce, Riley (though I think she loved him, but was not in love with him).  Why would Buffy say it to Spike if she didn't mean it?  She had ample opportunities to lie to him if she had wanted.  She's never spared Spike's feelings for any reason, never done anything just because it's what he wanted.  So, when she pulls those three little words out of her hope chest and brushes off the dust of disuse, I have no reason not to believe her.  Did Spike believe her?  No.  Hell, I don't even think Buffy believed it until she said it out loud.  But I sure did.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jun 14 2007 01:51 am   #12Scarlet Ibis

She meant it- she mentions it (only the viewer would know) in "Dead Things about always hurting the ones you love, and it was obvious she was personally referring to Spike.  Ever since "Intervention," Spike systematically broke her walls down, even though god knows she tried like hell to build them back up again over stupid stuff.

I just feel that... it was too little, too late, and for whatever reason, that SMG didn't try all that hard when she said it. 

Also, Joss *so* cheated us with that basement scene.  It's almost unforgiveable, and such a blatant slap in the face to Spuffy fans.  We're forced to endure Angel kissage, with Spike *watching* for crissakes!!

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 14 2007 02:08 am   #13Eowyn315

Not sure there's anything new left to say, but here I am, posting anyway. :)

I think Buffy meant it when she said it. Her actions in most of season 7 said she loved Spike, but just didn't have the time to sit down and work it out. With everything going on with the First, and so many people around, all looking to Buffy for direction, there were too many other things that took precedence. She probably thought Giles was right - that wasn't the time for dating. 

I think Touched was really the first chance they had to explore their feelings - but Buffy, being Buffy, needed to take baby steps - "just hold me." I agree with whoever said their conversation in End of Days seemed like Buffy trying to tell him she loved him without saying it - sort of, "I don't want to get into this now, but can we love each other when the world doesn't end?"

The problem, of course, being that she never expected to lose Spike. So, when she was suddenly faced with the now-or-never situation, she had to tell him. But, considering the circumstances, I have no trouble figuring out why Spike wouldn't believe her. Despite her obvious feelings for him in season 7, he's got years of bad treatment and "I'll never love you" to get past, plus the soul (and everyone else) telling him he's not worthy of Buffy. I don't think he would've believed it under any circumstances without extensive convincing - saying it once probably wouldn't be enough. And certainly not when he's about to die - that just screams "pity." 

I definitely see the point about Buffy having trouble telling people she loved them - but I don't think Spike knew that, or if he did, it would've been in season 6 when he could chalk it up to the being dead, so any emotion was hard for her. So, I can understand him sitting through these conversations with her, in First Date, Touched, End of Days, etc. and thinking, "If she really loved me, she'd say it." But instead, she's saying things like "I'm not ready for you to not be here" and "Does it have to mean something?" Then, when he finally hears it, it's utterly the wrong moment for him to let himself believe it.

I don't think Get It Done was an indication Buffy didn't love him. She berated plenty of people and hurt plenty of feelings, in that episode and in others. It seemed more like stress overwhelming her. It probably feels harsher because she targets Spike's soul, but I don't think she meant it that way - she didn't really understand what the soul meant to him, and how that was hurting him, asking him to go back to the way he was before. 

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 14 2007 02:29 am   #14Scarlet Ibis

I agree, E.

Also, the fact that she didn't wholly accept him pre-soul probably still stung. It's always "oh, he has a soul now" as opposed to "he *earned* his soul."  Which is still pretty stupid when you think about it, because the show has shown many times that the soul or lack there of has nothing to do with one's actions morally or ethically, which is why Spike pre soul didn't bother me in the least.  If I'd been Buffy, I wouldn't have given a damn and said sod off to anyone who had a problem with it.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 14 2007 02:30 am   #15Spikez_tart

She loved him she loved him she loved him.

Also, I hate the Angel 5 Spike - the writers just didn't get him right, he was just a jerk most of the time and they didn't do anything with him except have him stand around looking ghosty.  Grrrr.  If they had properly continued the character, he would have chased after Buffy in a flash.  The only good episode was the one where he and Angel beat each other to a pulp of a cupful of Mountain Dew. 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jun 14 2007 03:01 am   #16Scarlet Ibis

I personally loved Spike in AtS s5- James and David were brilliant, and I <3 snarky Spike.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 14 2007 04:41 am   #17Eowyn315

I agree, Scarlet... I loved Spike in AtS s5, too, and especially the combination of him with Angel. He definitely had some OOC moments, but I don't think not going after Buffy is one of them. As said above, he didn't believe she loved him. If he did, *then* it would've been OOC for him not to go after her. But, thinking she was only pitying him, I can understand why he might not want to set himself up for rejection again. 

And I think, by that point, he was content with his love being unrequited. He seems to be saying that in Touched, and when he tells Buffy she doesn't love him, he doesn't really look sad about it. He seems like he appreciates the sentiment (he thinks she wants him to have that last comfort before he dies). So, I don't see him running off to try and convince Buffy to love him once he's back. If he still felt that desperate need for her to return his love (like he felt in seasons 5 and 6), then running after her would make sense. But by s7, it's pretty clear that he's accepted her not loving him, and so rather than get his heart broken again, he'd choose to stay and do something good in L.A. and let her think he died a hero.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 14 2007 10:46 am   #18Guest

I reread my reply in this thread and it's a complete nonsequitor like I've been smoking the wacky weed or something.  I think my train jumped the tracks too early.  

My reply would have made more sense (at least a little) if I had put my thoughts leading up to it lol.  I can't decide whether she meant it or not or whether Spike believed it or not.  I think it was meant to be ambivilant on purpose because Joss can't do closure.  

But...I think whether she loved him or not isn't the key issue.  Her behavior toward him even in season seven IMO was abysmal and she needed to be turned over someone's knee for thinking she could treat someone like that.

I guess my opinion is...even if she meant it it doesn't ultimately matter because she was someone unwilling to take the risk to love.  The first slayer vision taught her absolutely nothing.  Because she didn't take the risk.  She was afraid to risk the pain and she didn't, instead she became a martyr, a whiner, and a bully.  

She needed someone to take her firmly in hand and not allow her to pull that crap.  Spike could have done it, but he couldn't seem to stop letting her abuse him, even though he had the power to stop it.  He just kept enabling her behavior because he thought she could work through her issues. But that wasn't the type of help she needed, IMO.

Jun 14 2007 10:47 am   #19ZoeGrace

That was me.  For some bizarre and mystical reason I wasn't auto-logged.  It must expire after awhile.  Or else it's because of the zombie uprising today.

Jun 14 2007 05:25 pm   #20pfeifferpack

Lost Boy is not alone.  I have lots of sympathy for Buffy after her resurrection and I do think she loved Spike not only in S7 but in S6 (and the very end of S5 as well).  I think she was afraid to go there again in S7 for MANY reasons, including the reminder of how badly she had treated him and how close to destroying him she had come.  Her every action AFTER bringing him into her home showed love in some way, even if grudgingly.  Her subconscious words as well (the famous, "Why does everyone think I'm STILL in love with Spike", her near litany of "must save Spike" when the FE had him among those words....Xander and Willow certainly saw it).

I think there was too much happening for her to explore the feelings and we know how she likes to avoid that in good times!  By the time she KNEW she loved him she was losing him.  The look on her face when she said it had a bit of shock to it as though she was finally seeing clearly for the first time.

As for Spike....in S6 he saw the signs that she loved him and had the confidence to believe it.  His acting on that belief, ignoring her words that she didn't, led him to "hurt the girl" and after that he no longer trusted his instincts with reading her actions any longer.  He could see the love just as Willow and Xander did but since the words never came he didn't believe what he saw any more.  When the words came....it was not the opportune time for him to decidejust WHAT she meant.  What did she mean by "love"?, did she mean it? was it the kiind of love he needed and wanted?  He didn't have time to explore those questions before dusting and when he returned he was still too insecure to put it to the test until too late (and the Rome incident topping Angels carefully worded hints that Spike had reason for insecurity didn't help).  Again....timing was the killer.

As for the comics...Joss will never put her with either vampire for a myriad of reasons, many commercial.  I'd like to think, however that logical character progression would have led Buffy and Spike to each other and a chance to iron it all out.  I don't think that is wishful thinking but just looking at the progression of all the characters as we saw them on screen.

 

Kathleen

Jun 14 2007 05:44 pm   #21pfeifferpack

Oh I also wanted to remark that the writers on Angel seemed to make a conscious choice to write Spike more like the Spike of S5 (heavy on the snark and light on the soul).  I know many of those writers said that was the Spike THEY preferred.  Anyway....things like his blowing off FakeRoger's rememberance of eating the orphans didn't jive with the soul filled S7 Spike for one example.

 

Angel chipped away at Spike's remainind confidence where Buffy was concerned and coupled with Spike's own insecurities re her emotions he would have needed far more time than he had (before Angel manipulated all his "friends" to commit suicide) to go after her and find out for sure.

I've always felt the Spike we saw on Angel was played more as soulless.  That perhaps the soul burning away was the "cleansing" done by the amulet.  It would make perfect sense that W&H would give something like that to Angel fully expecting HIM to wear it and return to them as soulless Angelus (their goal all along).  Spike without a soul would have been difficult to be certain of since he had already changed so much without one.  I don't think even he would necessarily have "missed" it and it would explain how he acted.

As for Get it Done...Buffy was yelling at everyone (including herself) from stress, grief and fear.  She knew Spike was her best ally and was afraid of seeing him holding back so she lashed out.  She was sorry she did...you could see it but Buffy is not one to apologize in the best of times.  I don't think it had a thing to do with love or no love.  I think it also showed that deep down she knew the soul didn't make him "good", merely hesitant, and spoke more of her acceptance of him as one of the good guys with or without a soul....a big leap for her really.

 

Kathleen

Jun 14 2007 06:24 pm   #22Scarlet Ibis

Nah, I think Spike's soul was still there- he was just able to cope with its existence, and the fact that he's still a vampire.  He's a champion, just not Ghandi.  A good example was his promise to Wood in s7 of offing him should he try anymore funny business, and offering to kill Faith, setting it up as an accident if Buffy gave the word.  I seriously doubt he was joking, and it doesn't bother me. 

We've seen Angel with his soul be not so goody goody, and in my opinion, that's normal.  Having a soul doesn't make you regretful of everything, or inherently want to be good, etc.  Having a soul doesn't decide whether you have "the 'tude" and so forth, or not being bothered by your past mistakes.  Spike and Angel in s5 seemed pretty normal to me, and I see no reason to question the existence of Spike's soul. 

And the fact that he willing chose to get one negates everything else, cause if he hadn't succeeded in the trials, the fact that he went through them says everything about the change inside of him, and knowing what's right and what's wrong.  And that he's not afraid to unleash his demon for the greater good or self preservation (with Wood and torturing that guy on Angel in order to help Fred) still seems normal to me.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 14 2007 10:04 pm   #23ZoeGrace

hehehe "you give the word pet, and she's a bloody footnote in history."

I love spike lol.

Jun 15 2007 01:11 pm   #24Guest

I agree, Scarlet.

Spike definitely had his soul. Just look at how torn up he was over the Dana situation. Those who doubt it, have to remember that 1) Spike was thrust into a new UNCOMFORTABLE situation by landing at W & H. 2) He's with STRANGERS. 3) He's with ANGEL, who he's had nothing but animosity with for a long time. 4) He's a GHOST, which would make anybody testy. 5) He has to figure out how his life is going to be while he's in L.A., because once he starts to get to know and care about Angel's crew, and gets his body back, he has OPTIONS. Something Sunnydale really didn't afford him.

Why would we have lovey dovey soft Spike among Angel and a bunch of strangers? It doesn't make sense. Spike's attitude is as much *armor* as it's a natural part of him, and he needed that when stuck with Angel and *strangers*. I think we can all admit that there's *someone* in our lives that we know that can bring out the most immature and childish part of yourself because they just grate on you in that way, no matter how evolved we are. That's what happened with Spike. You can't possibly watch past "Destiny" and say he has no soul........it just doesn't work.

Jun 15 2007 03:27 pm   #25lostboy

Damn.  It always seems to come back to this soul/no soul business, doesn't it?  I agree about the armor stuff, but Spike never seemed to require some glowing, ghosty-thing to feel torn-up about stuff.  I personally think that Spike's soul was a MacGuffin, and the best evidence that he still had one in AtS was that he never mentioned it was gone.

Still, that's rather strong evidence, given how important it apparently was to him.

Jun 15 2007 06:52 pm   #26Guest

I know this has probably been argued out so much, but I just felt like writing my opinion. I do think that Buffy loved Spike. She might not have loved him as much as she loved Angel, but I think she really did love Spike. And people have to remember that while Angel was her first love, what was right for her as a teenager, may not be right for her as a woman. Buffy has changed so much from the innocent girl that Angel fell in love with, that if Joss had ever tried to put them back together I don't think it would have worked out. Both are too different  now then when they were together. Spike fell in love with the woman Buffy was, and I think that Buffy came to love him for the man he became for her. Personally I never thought Buffy and Angel fit together when they were a couple. Buffy and Spike always made so much more sense to me. But I agree with pfeifferpack, that in the comics, Joss isn't going to put her with either vampire.

Jun 15 2007 09:26 pm   #27chlarkspuffy

My tuppence on the issue - Buffy did love Spike, in her own special way, lol. She was just loathe to admit it early on and she always did give too much credence to what the damn scoobies would think. In season 7, however, she got over that as well. Her declaration just had lousy timing, making it suspect. Also, I agree that it was timed to make it ambivalent else TPTB would have had an even harder time explaining why Spike doesn't run off to see her after being re-corporealised. By the way, I hated that they reverted to snarky Spike on Angel without explanation. I do prefer that Spike to S7 Spike, but it messed with continuity, IMO.

"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."

- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Jun 15 2007 09:31 pm   #28Guest

There's an easy explanation - Spike was around *Angel* and a bunch of strangers. There's not a single person there he already feels comfortable with, and that knows him well as the man he became in Sunnydale. He has to deal with the mistrust and suspicion all over again, plus the long-standing animosity with Angel.

Post "Destiny", we see Spike loosening up, and by the time the season ended, he was S7 Spike again, only with more self-acceptance and less brooding.

CM

Jun 15 2007 09:51 pm   #29chlarkspuffy

I suppose that makes sense, CM, but I don't like it. One of the things I like about Spike is that he doesn't pander to other's expectations of him and his swing from S7 on Buffy (when everyone expect Buffy treated him with suspicion and mistrust) to Season 5 on Angel was way to dramatic, IMO. It's not just that he was snarky, but that he became immature and dumb. There was no reason they couldn't have worked out his inferiority issues with Angel in a manner that didn't make him revert to old Spike. I guess, I am cribbing because I would have liked to see some progression in the transition between series.

"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."

- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Jun 15 2007 10:35 pm   #30ZoeGrace

I think Spike is Spike is Spike.  With or without the soul, he's the same guy.  I didn't think his personality change was THAT big in Season 7.  A lot of it IMO was all the weird stuff being thrown into the mix, like hallucinations and such.  Sure he had the guilt now, but I really don't believe Season two spike at root is THAT different from season 7 Spike.  There's just different layers of BS in each mask he wears.  He just switched teams, not personalities. IMO.

Jun 16 2007 01:58 am   #31Immortal Beloved

I think that Spike's behavior in AtS Season 5 can be chalked up to a few reasons: Angel and Angel's show.  NOBODY brings out snarky, defensive, childish Spike quite like Angel :-P  It's kind of like how people's different personality traits tend to be magnified in different situations.  At work, I'm confident and competent.  With my husband I'm laidback and funny.  With my family, I sometimes turn into the whiny youngest child that everybody picks on :-P  I think that could explain Spike's magnified personality traits.  We did, however, see the more serious, sensitive Spike a few times, like after Dana and in TGIQ.  

It was also Angel's show, and the writers couldn't have someone else (i.e., Spike) stealing the spotlight :-P

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jun 16 2007 06:02 am   #32Scarlet Ibis

I think Spike's personality on Angel was more than natural- he was able to be *himself* in my opinion.  Did anyone notice how the Angel gang accepted him with practically no questions asked?  Even Angel.  Sure he bitched about it at first, but he really didn't mind Spike being around that much.  He got along with them all a hell of a lot better with the Scoobies, and a lot of his sarcastic remarks weren't necessarily mean spirited.  We can tell when Spike's angry or pissed off at someone, and I don't think he was ever truly angry at Gunn, Fred, Lorne and Wes, if ever.  He got along with the "strangers" better than with the folks that he knew.  He trusted them, they  trusted him, and it was all good to me (and for me-- terribly refreshing, and in my humble opinion, one of the best seasons as a whole I've ever seen of any show).

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 16 2007 05:22 pm   #33maryperk

I think Buffy began to realize she cared for Spike at the end of Intervention, but the next couple of years were such Hell for them both.  For Buffy it was Hell literally for a very long time.   If Spike wasn't there during season 6 to keep her mad, she might have fallen into a depression.  Imagine how different season 7 would have been if she'd stayed inside the delusion the demon venom gave her.

So, I think she meant the 'I love you' in Chosen, and if Spike hadn't been ghostly and tied to WRH at the beginning, he would have went to found her.  Heck, maybe he found something out while there as a ghost and figured he needed to keep an eye on the old poofter. Keep him out of trouble so Buffy wouldn't have to stake either of them for doing something stupid.  LOL.

Jun 16 2007 06:21 pm   #34Eowyn315

Well, maryperk, I agree that if Spike hadn't been a ghost at first, he would've gone after her. But "maybe he found something out" that made him think he needed to stay is pretty damn fanwanky. Granted, most of our speculation is fanwank, since the "official" explanation is what Spike tells Harmony - he doesn't want to ruin the heroic exit. But I think it's more reasonable to evaluate his emotions at the time and postulate that, while he was a ghost, he thought about it, and he realized going to Buffy would most likely result in breaking his heart again. So, why ruin the way they ended - her telling him she loved him, him dying to save the world - by going to her and finding out she didn't really mean it? Saying that he discovered something as a ghost that gave him a reason to stay, when we never saw or heard anything about it on the show... seems like a stretch.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 16 2007 06:45 pm   #35maryperk

eh, probably is.  They just wanted to keep Spike on ATS to try and keep the viewers.  So, they didn't have to give an explanation as to why he stayed, other than not wanting ruin the heroic exit.

Jun 16 2007 10:38 pm   #36spikes_wish

I actually think Buffy gets a pretty raw deal from us Spuffiers. Although she treated Spike *really* badly, I still sympathize for her hugely throughout Season 6. 

I honestly don't think she loved Spike in said season, for the simple reason that she hated herself. Before she could fall for him, and accept him and his love for what it was, she needed to love and accept herself. I think Spike comes to accept and understand this in Season 7, and that's when Buffy allows herself to accept that she has feelings for him, and that there was nothing wrong with them.  This grew into love throughout the season, right up until those last few moments in 'Chosen'.

Do I blame Spike for not believing her? Yes, in a way. One thing you can say about Spike and Buffy- they were never anything but honest with each other, right from the word go. She never lied before, why would she start then?

(so ha ha Bangel shippers- a relationship full of secrets and lies, in comparison to Spuffy. She totally meant it.)

Jun 17 2007 03:51 am   #37Eowyn315

Good point, spikes_wish. I've gone back and forth on the point when Buffy fell in love with Spike - and I think you may have convinced me that it wasn't until after season 6. I think she definitely started down that road at the end of season 5, but her intervening death changed things. That whole "you can't love someone else until you love yourself" thing applies - and Buffy had to go through that, and it wasn't until season 7 really that she was in a position to love him.

I think Spike realized that in season 7 as well (that she couldn't love him in season 6) - he says something along those lines in Sleeper, I think, or the one after that - when he's tied to the chair in Buffy's room. He didn't know it in season 6, he really thought she loved him despite the self-hate, so maybe it was the soul giving him insight on the whole "loving yourself" thing. 

But just because he realized that doesn't mean that he believed she loved him in season 7. I don't think you can say "she never lied before" - maybe she didn't outright lie, but she definitely said things she didn't believe, and she said one thing when she meant another... heck, that's pretty much all she did in season 6, so I think it's perfectly reasonable for Spike to think she didn't mean it when she said she loved him.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 17 2007 05:38 am   #38Scarlet Ibis

Kinda disagree- I think she did love him in season six, but was just so screwed up it really didn't matter.  I think besides the fact that she thought she was "wrong," she thought it to be even wronger to love a soulless demon, regardless of all of the things he'd done for her and her family and friends, and knowing that he most certainly loved and was in love with her.  I just think she was in denial over it for a long time, and perhaps, during the summer, and she and Xander began talking again like old pals, letting each other back in the other's lives or whatever like they used to do, maybe she admitted to him that she loved him, because if she hadn't, then the whole "why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike" would have been an actual shock, and someone would've called her on the Freudian slip, but no one seemed surprised.  That's why I don't think it was a slip of any kind, just something that we viewers hadn't definitively heard before. 

Also, Xander is sympathetic when Buffy first tries to help Spike in s7, while Anya and Dawn are all pissed off.  Isn't that... odd considering?  Wasn't Xander on the "Hate Spike" bandwagon?  I think he and Buffy most certainly had a heart to heart, and he knows his bff still has feelings for Spike.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 17 2007 09:56 pm   #39Eowyn315

Hmm... interesting thought on the conversation between Buffy and Xander. Although I'm not sure I agree that Xander is sympathetic and Anya and Dawn are pissed off. Xander is pretty pissed at first - he threatens Spike in Beneath You, and doesn't want to leave Buffy alone with him. Once the revelation comes about the soul, he's more accommodating (letting Spike live with him) - though he does mention reviling that plan.

And Anya, I didn't really see her as pissed off. Any conflict between them, I saw that more as a result of them having sex, and nothing to do with Buffy. I don't think Anya would've cared if Buffy was in love with Spike or not... she's not really the type to like someone just because someone else does (witness her dislike of Willow even though she's Xander's best friend) - she mostly judges people on their own merits.

Dawn, I think, has the most reason to be pissed off. Spike was her best friend, and by hurting her sister repeatedly (first sleeping with Anya, then the bathroom, and then leaving) he betrayed Dawn's trust. Plus, he hurt Dawn by leaving, too. Xander already hated Spike and thought he was evil - finding out about what happened with Buffy doesn't really add much fuel to the fire that wasn't already there. But with Dawn, this is a sudden realization that her friend is not who she thought he was, and so I can understand her being very angry at Spike, both for herself and for Buffy. Also, since Dawn is the only one who thought of him as a person before the soul, I can see how that wouldn't make a difference to her, but it would make the others more sympathetic toward Spike. 

Xander and Buffy do sort of have a heart-to-heart on camera... right before Buffy gets shot in Seeing Red. I think Xander realizes that there's a lot he doesn't understand about Buffy's relationship with Spike, though neither of them call it love.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 17 2007 11:27 pm   #40Guest
I don't remember which episode, but sometime in season 7, Buffy was talking to Willow saying, "why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?" take it as you will
Jun 18 2007 07:23 am   #41Scarlet Ibis

E- I didn't mean that Anya was jealous, or that Dawn was hurt. I meant they were pissed that Buffy was still willing to help Spike, even though he killed (with no free will, but killed all the same) those people and made them into minions or whatever.  Xander is the one who evades Anya's prodding of "why does Spike get off the hook, and why can't he be staked?" and so forth (though that could probably be mostly explained by her bitterness of Buffy running her through the chest with a sword), by saying he has a house to fix.  A typical (uninformed, I think) Xander reaction would've been "Hey, maybe Buff needs another intervention, cause aiding a mass murder- one who's murdered recently in fact, is so not of the good," or somethig  ;)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 18 2007 07:48 pm   #42Eowyn315

Ohhhhh... I completely misunderstood, lol. I thought you were talking about their reactions when Spike first came back - and why was Buffy willing to help him, after what he did to her. So, I was thinking everything in terms of Xander, Anya, and Dawn's reactions to the AR.

If we're talking about the people Spike killed while under control of the First... yeah, I think Anya was pissed that she got run through with a sword, whereas Spike gets off the hook. Except, um, Anya? You're still alive, right? I'd call *that* getting off the hook with Buffy. Especially considering that Spike had no free will, and Anya did - she had the free will to become a vengeance demon, and she had the free will to grant that wish. In any case, I see that as more personal Anya issues, and less to do with Spike - she kind of had the same reaction to Willow being welcomed back.

I can't remember... does Dawn give Buffy a hard time about helping Spike after the killing spree? I know she definitely doesn't support Spike, but I thought she was kind of silent on Buffy helping him. Again, I'd say that any reaction from Dawn is colored by her relationship with Spike, and feeling betrayed by him.

So, really, it's just a matter of Xander being more accepting of Spike than he used to be. Which could be the result of a conversation with Buffy... or it could just be that he's more mature. He shows maturity in other ways, too, and it's possible that, seeing how Buffy is with Spike, he's picked up that she loves him, *without* her telling him. So, I don't think it necessarily points to them having a conversation. In fact, I think it's more likely that Buffy didn't say she loved Spike until the very end when she told him... Xander just figured it out.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 29 2007 09:51 pm   #43FetchingMadScientist

I know this is an old question, but it's been brought up in another thread, so I thought I'd post my thoughts.

I think Spike did believe Buffy when she said "I love you" but denied her because he wanted to get her out of the Hellmouth.  I think that he said what he did so that Buffy wouldn't have to live with the thought of being responsible for the death of someone else she loved.  I mean, he had to know she took Angel's "death" hard.  

It may not have been the best way to do it, and it was tough for me to hear him say the words, but I think Spike was trying to make things easier for Buffy.  

He was taking care of his Slayer, just as he always had before.

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Jul 29 2007 11:08 pm   #44Guest

Yeah, whether he believed her or not, he definitely said it to get her out of there.

Aug 01 2007 03:09 am   #45Spikez_tart

Bah - Obsesso Tart says you are all wrong.  Buffy loved him in Season 2 when she said We don't have to do this with weapons, do we?  Spike says it makes him feel all manly, but they both toss down their weapons and the dance begins.

To those who believe Buffy didn't love him, in the scene where she's sleeping in her basement with Spike on his cot and the First comes to visit, the First says something like why aren't you sleeping in your dead lover's arms?  Buffy, who denied a dozen times that Spike was her boyfriend, looks at Spike and says --- nothing.

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Aug 01 2007 08:20 am   #46Guest

strictly from the mythic connection reference in CWDP - cassie, which I take as a variation of cassandra, makes a grand symbolic theme and description of their entire relationship.  Spike's "not you don't" is the direct connection to Cassie/cassandra.   It serves also as the reflections and ironic contrast of Buffy's entire series theme -   Spike's inability to love as the souless vampire/beast man vs the ensouled/integrated (dark&Light) Spike..    All of the visual symbols in that last scene are about a true integration and joining - their hands and fingers and hearts are joined at last and cleansed by flame.  They have completed their rite of passage into  joined entities of light and dark..  

I think their last scene is a beautiful and wonderful use of mythic symbol and great contrasts; while Spike may be saying "No you don't" all the visuals, in my opinion, tell of a final coming together. and one can read it as Love between two people or as a spiritual-mythic LOVEl

Nice to read the discussion -  nmcil    

 

Aug 01 2007 08:46 am   #47Scarlet Ibis

Um... Spike didn't have an inability to love unsouled.  He loved "quite well," actually.

:D

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 02 2007 04:15 am   #48Spikez_tart

I agree guest - the actions contradict their words.  Cassie is certainly meant to be Cassandra.  Damn another good character killed off. 

Scarlet - Was Spike really capable of love, or only obsession and jealousy and lust?

At the least, when he gets his soul, he is able to love more selflessly - he pretends to be okay when Buffy goes out on a date with Principal Wood, he offers to leave until she needs him for the big battle (when he'd surely rather be right there under her feet) and finally, he tells her that she doesn't love him because he wants her to be free after his death.  His love, post soul, is of a very different character. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Aug 02 2007 04:25 am   #49Scarlet Ibis

Only obsession, jealousy, and lust?  Nah, it was definitely love.  No one undergoes torture for lust (when he wasn't getting any) and obsession.  It definitely started out as obsession, but it was love in s5.  No one sticks around to keep a promise to protect those you care about when the girl you supposedly only wanted to bang dies, and you have no hopes of her ever coming back from the dead.

Love.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 03 2007 03:48 pm   #50Spikez_tart

Scarlet - you convinced me.  I still think that Spike was more selfless post soul.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Aug 03 2007 04:27 pm   #51Scarlet Ibis

Yay! (claps hands)  I think the soul gave him...huh.  The only real difference I saw, is that when she came back, and they were together, he had a hard time letting her go, and worrying about how she felt about him.  But with the soul, he was in a place where he could let her go (though she wouldn't let *him* go...), and be with who she wanted to be with.  I don't think his love was ever selfish, or about what he couldn't have, pre or post soul, but the soul helped him realize, I think, that she would never fully be his (and that she often tried to make it about her).

If that sounded weird and confusing at all, forgive me, I'm still a bit sleepy ;)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel