BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

The Big Bad vs. the Big Poof

Jun 14 2007 07:37 pm   #1chlarkspuffy

I don't see a thread dedicated to discussing our the two legendary vamps that some of us simple love and others love to hate. So, I am starting one since I am really intrigued by similarities and differences between Spike and Angel/Angelus and their respective journeys toward redemption. 

My first question is to those of you are intimately acquainted with the happenings of AtS and are therefore better equipped to answer it. In the episode Destiny (at least I think that's the one), Angel makes a statement to the effect that he has helped avert more apocalypses than has Spike. The way I see it, Angel has helped avert (until that episode) only one 'apocalypse' and that is in Chosen. Spike on the other hand, helped at the end of Seasons 3, 5, and 7. Would you wager this to be accurate considering both series?

"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."

- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Jun 14 2007 10:22 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis

The two vampires had this discussion during "The Girl in Question," actually, and in it, it was pretty much shown that Spike stopped more.  Spike has Acathla, participated in stopping Glory, and self sacrifice with Liz Taylor's necklace. 

Angel has the opening of the hellmouth mid season three, participating in stopping the mayor, they debated whether or not stopping Jazmine actually counted, and killing that rock monster man, that may or may not have been apocalyptic.  Oh, and he also claims that helped stopped Acathla, for he signaled Buffy with his eyes to run him through with a sword, though we all know that was rubbish ;)

Spike wins simply because Angel/Angelus had a helping hand in starting apocalypses- Acathla, allegedly Jazmine was "salvation for humanity," and he stopped her, and starting the big fight with W & H.  Spike was only personally involved with the Judge, though I'm not sure he was high on the "apocalyptic" scale.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 15 2007 12:45 am   #3DreamsofSpike

Well, the OCD in me is making me do this...let's take it systematically and see who the winner should be....(and I'm using the idea that any apocalypse that they might have helped to start, and then helped to stop, soooo doesn't count! :P lol)

Season 1 -- neither boy was much help, and there was no real apocalypse to avert

Running Score:        Spike: 0          Angel: 0

Season 2 -- Angelus nearly ended the world, Spike helped avert the apocalypse

Running Score:          Spike: 1          Angel: 0 (or -1, technically :P)

Season 3 -- Angel helped with the Mayor, Spike wasn't really around

Running Score:            Spike: 1            Angel: 1 (or 0, technically :P)

Season 4 -- Angel was off having his own show, which did not end with an apocalypse, if I recall, while Spike helped Adam, but in the end fought him, cancelling out his actions for this season...Adam's hybrid army would have brought about the apocalypse, so this counts as apocalyptic

Running Score:             Spike: 1 (+2, -1)   Angel:  0 (+1, -1)

Season 5  -- Spike helped stop Glory, Angel, again, had no apocalypse

Running Score:                Spike: 2 (+3, -1)    Angel: 0 (+1, -1)

Season 6 -- Spike did not help with the apocalypse, because he was off getting his soul, and Angel did not have an apocalypse to deal with, either

Running Score:              Spike: 2 (+3, -1)        Angel: 0 (+1, -1)

Season 7 -- Spike made the ultimate sacrifice and died to save the world, while Angel gave Buffy the amulet and thus helped, and also averted Jasmine, so actually, during this season Angel gets two points, and Spike gets one...but that's only by simple number of apocalypses, because Spike did sooo much more!

Running Score:       Spike: 3 (+4, -1)         Angel:  1 (+2, -1)

 

So, end result is, Spike is three times as heroic as Angel...just as I suspected :P lol

Jun 15 2007 12:58 am   #4Scarlet Ibis

Wait!!  Um... pardon my lameness, but what's "OCD?"  It's probably something real simple if I think really hard, but shucks... could ya just tell me?  And, Angel did help in that one apocalypse in "The Zeppo," and was knocked unconscious.  Does that count?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 15 2007 01:50 am   #5Unbridled_Brunette

Scarlet -- OCD is an abreviation for "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder." People with OCD are often fixated on certain rituals, which can include cleaning, collecting objects, or counting. :) 

Faithfully bowing at the altar that is Stephen Colbert
Jun 15 2007 01:52 am   #6Scarlet Ibis

Yes... that is so obvious, it's not even funny.  In fact, if you hadn't mentioned my name UB, I'd probably delete that post to spare myself further embarassment, and for looking like a complete and utter tard.  However... what the hell?  I'm sure we all have some sort of problem or other on here, so I feel right at home :D

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 15 2007 01:56 am   #7Unbridled_Brunette

lol. Don't worry; I've had plenty of "blonde" moments myself (especially considering the fact I am a brunette). I can delete my post if you want; that way, you can delete yours.

Faithfully bowing at the altar that is Stephen Colbert
Jun 15 2007 02:03 am   #8Eowyn315

DoS - I think your OCD missed the opening of the Hellmouth in Doomed (s4). That'd be considered an apocalypse, right? Spike tried to help (by fighting the demons) but ended up almost accidentally *causing* the apocalypse by throwing the demon in the Hellmouth. So, uh... not sure how you count that one, lol.

And Scarlet is right - the apocalypse in The Zeppo (s3) should give Angel another point.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 15 2007 02:13 am   #9Scarlet Ibis

It's cool UB- I'm sure it'll happen to some other poor schmo sooner or later ;)

And E- totally forgot about "Doomed," and I think it counts, cause he thought it was helping.  Therefore, he's still ahead of Angel.

Either way, I enjoy very much seeing the dynamic of the two together, whether they're getting along or pissing each other off.  Spike and Xander too- when they're just getting along, though.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 15 2007 02:19 am   #10DreamsofSpike

in my opinion, if he was *trying* to help, that counts...i was only counting negative points for when they deliberately *caused* an apocalypse... :P lol...

and yeah, i guess "doomed" counts too :) hmmm....and the zeppo....but doesn't that leave the actual difference between them still the same? spike has two more apocalypses than angel :P lol

Jun 15 2007 02:21 am   #11Immortal Beloved

To me, it doesn't so much matter the quantity of good deeds as the quality of good deeds, and also the hero's motive.  And for me, Angel's desire to do good to redeem himself and to possibly receive an award for himself is not heroic because it's too selfishly motivated.  In contrast, Spike does good things for others, namely Buffy.  Granted, you can argue that if Spike does good, and Buffy approves, then he might get something--her love and respect--in return, but, by the time Spike burns in the hellmouth, he seems to care only that he does something good for Buffy.  And, let's face it, if he knows he's dying, he can't exactly expect to reap the benefits of Buffy's love and respect :P

So, Angel is his own hero, wanting to save himself.  Spike is Buffy's hero, wanting to save her.  He's my hero, too :D

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jun 15 2007 02:24 am   #12Scarlet Ibis

Oh, that just reminds me- true Spike wanted Angelus dead to get Dru back, but he did help stop Acathla cause he *liked* the world as is, sans soul (though I don't think it matters about the soul, but since the show puts so much damn emphasis on it), then regardless of the rest, he'll always top Angel, cause technically, Angel had a big push with his cursed soul to do good, so ha, ha!  I still like Angel(us) though.

And DoS- you're right, that would cancel the other out, those two... But still, good to mention for OCD reasons ;)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 15 2007 03:17 am   #13chlarkspuffy

So it looks like I wasn't completely off my rocker when I reacted with incredulity at Angel's statement. I wasn't sure who had averted more apocalypses but I was pretty damn sure that Spike had helped with 3 at least up until that conversation. Thank you DOS, especially for the breakdown. :)

Immortal Beloved, I do agree that motivations count which brings me to another question I have about the duo. When they were both evil, back in the good ol' days, has canon ever shown/described what horrific acts Spike committed to the extent that Angel's has been? Spike killed a couple of Slayers, that much I do recall. However, both series take great pains to establish that Angelus was a sadistic evil-doer. Was Spike not in the same league, then? I know fan fics draw this distinction, but I am wondering whether this is canonically correct.



"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."

- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Jun 15 2007 03:36 am   #14Scarlet Ibis

Yeah, the distinction is particularly made in "Destiny" during the fight, when Spike points out how Angelus pretty much corrupted him, "... wanting so desperately to see his own reflection" or something like that.  Spike was about the fight, Angelus about the pain and torture.  In "Damage" too, in the last scene at the hospital, Angel talks about how he would've considered Dana to be a master piece cause her head was so screwed up.  We see glimpes of the distinction of the two in most of the flash backs.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 15 2007 01:23 pm   #15Guest

We can also give Angel another point for helping to get rid of the Scourge in "Hero", for which Doyle made the ultimate sacrifice. Angel was going to to stop the bomb, but Doyle punched him off the catwalk. The Scourge wouldn't have stopped with just getting rid of those human-laced demons.....they were severely radical about demon purity on Earth.

Chlark, neither show actually *showed* the extent that Spike might have done as "monstrous". Things are alluded to, and we can gather that he did somethings during the time Angelus was still with them, but of Spike's own choosing - he seems to be mainly about the fight and feeding, not the seriously depraved stuff, not without reason (like if it was revenge for Dru).

CM

Jun 15 2007 02:12 pm   #16Maggie2

I think it's hard to use apocalypse counts to compare the two 'heroes'.  The various situations are all so different, and (especially) the motives are different. 

To me what matters are the following points:  Angelus sure as heck never did anything to stop an apocalypse.  Pre-souled Spike (Spikelus!!!) did.  Angel did work to stop apocalypses, but only because he has a soul which he got as a curse.  And although he does do quite a bit of good, there are still some severe problems.  First, Angelus is always lurking under the surface and can sneak out and do very bad things as we saw most notably in season 2, but also in Angel 4.  Second, even with the soul, Angel can do some very dark things.  He engineered a major mind wipe, for one thing.  The whole black thorn thing at the end of Angel 5 is a very bad thing in my book -- the 'apocalypse' he was trying to stop is just the world going on as it normally does; to 'stop' it he killed an innocent man, ordered the death of a man who was not obviously going to continue being dark, put his colleagues at risk of death (losing at least Wesley and probably Gunn), and endangered the lives of who knows how many innocent bystanders when the demon armies let loose in retaliation.  (I have some energy about this cause so many people treat it as heroic, and it's really not.  It's an example of doing some pretty serious evil in the name of 'good' when it's really about ego or personal drama or whatever). 

Spike's lone black marks with a soul (as far as I can tell) are torturing a doctor for information to save Fred and not opposing Angel on the Black Thorn thing (though he had an obvious concern about the killing of the innocent man).  The latter is a result of Spike believing that Angel is a 'hero' and following him -- so it's more a matter of bad judgment than actual grayness.  I hope the A6 comics deal with that!

Anyways, that's my two cents!

Jun 15 2007 09:27 pm   #17Guest

I understood it that Angel knew from Cordy's vision that Lindsey would betray them. He started that whole thing *because* of the vision she gave him. so the Powers must have had a purpose for it.

CM

Jun 15 2007 09:48 pm   #18Maggie2

We don't get a lot of information about the vision from Cordy.  Angel says it was a "one-shot deal" that showed him where the real powers were.  So I don't see that assassinating Linsey was part of the vision.  It's also pretty clear that Angel worked out the Black Thorn plan, rather than being told what to do by the powers. 

 In NFA, the discovery that Angel murdered Drogyn as a part of his plan worries Spike, Wesley and Lorne.  Lorne especially comments that Angel isn't acting like a true hero here... and he ends up telling Angel he wants nothing to do with him after this final play.

So for me, the powers sent Angel a vision trying to get him to regain confidenced in the mission -- but Angel doesn't have enough moral compass left in him to carry it out in a truly good way.  Personally I think it's brilliant story-telling.  Most real evil has been done by people who were convinced they were doing good. 

Jun 16 2007 01:44 am   #19Immortal Beloved

Most real evil has been done by people who were convinced they were doing good.

Anybody remember that Hitler thought that "cleansing" his race was a good thing for the German people?  Angel started what is at least his second apocalypse because he thought it would help him to take back the power from the Senior Partners.  The Acathla incident could at least be chalked up to  having no conscience, no moral compass.  Angel allowed Darla and Drusilla to eat those lawyers, tried to suffocate Wesley, orchestrated a mass mindwipe, and indirectly unleashed the hordes of hell WITH a conscience and a moral compass.  Of course, Liam wasn't exactly Mahatma Ghandi when he was human, so it shouldn't come as much of a surprise :-P  Whether human, vampire, cursed with a soul, he pretty much has trouble with morality no matter what.    

Perhaps it's because Angel's primary motivation is his own redemption.  I don't think that there are many purely altruistic acts, but saving yourself definitely ain't one of them.  Angel constantly blurs the lines between his sense of good and his sense of evil until it's difficult for him to notice the difference between the two.  By the end of AtS Season 5, Angel isn't even in it for his own redemption.  He signs away his chance to Shanshu (of course, I don't think that it was ever meant to be his, but that's a-whole-nother thread) because he finally realizes that he's veered too far from his intended path to ever get a reward.  The lines are blurred, the white turns dark grey, and the hero falls.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jun 16 2007 05:57 am   #20Scarlet Ibis

I don't see Angel's actions as particularly heroic, but at the same time, I don't deem them as evil.  He's horribly misguided, and I think Angel's actions, whatever the motivation, are terribly human.  He messed up, sure, but I didn't see it as bad when he let those lawyers get eaten by Dru and Darla, then setting them on fire.  I didn't get the choking Wesley thing, but once again, I didn't see it as "Angelus is peaking through" so much as reacting not too good in a bad situation.  The whole "soul having" concept made no sense at all on either show.  Either you're good, or you're not, and you don't have to be either good or bad all of the time.  No one is like that- excluding sociopaths (no conscience= always bad, more than likely).

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 16 2007 06:48 am   #21Maggie2

I guess I tend to think of murder, attempted murder, and aiding and abetting mass murder as pretty evil actions.  Throw in a massive mind-wipe and essentially setting up his friends for a pointless suicide mission that could well bring on a real apocalypse with lots of 'collateral' damage -- and I think it starts to get pretty epic.  As I said before, it's creepier because it's much more realistic than Angelus-type evil.  Angelus did evil things because he enjoyed them.  But in the real world most evil things are done for a 'good' reason of one sort or another.  And Angel is a master of supplying 'good' motives for his very bad actions.  He also did some very good things.  Most people we might be tempted to call 'evil' do good things in their lives.  Doesn't change the fact that they are responsible for their evil actions.  And Angel has an awfully long and damning list of actions for which he is responsible.  By the standards of BtVS he's way over the line. 

Jun 16 2007 06:08 pm   #22Eowyn315

Maggie, I think simplifying what Angel did to murder and mass murder is like simplifying the bathroom scene to rape. Maybe the action is there, but it's so much more complex than just the crime.

When Angel locked Dru and Darla in the room with the lawyers - we're remembering they're EVIL lawyers, right? And I don't just mean that in the "all lawyers are evil" sense, we're talking about the law firm that is actively trying to kill Angel and has their hand in all kinds of demonic evil. If you can't kill the people trying to destroy you, who can you kill?

And the attempted murder... didn't he try to kill Wesley after Wesley kidnapped his son, and got him sent to a hell dimension? Not saying that makes it right, but any parent would understand the feeling behind it, I think. Like Scarlet said - very human and misguided, but not really "evil."

Same with the mindwipe - he did it to save Connor, to give his son a life that wouldn't end in violence and destruction. Personally, it's nice to see a father figure on a Joss show that's NOT evil or a terrible/negligent father. And honestly, I can't really blame Angel... I wish I could have some of those Connor episodes wiped from *my* mind, too. ;)

Also, in comparing Angel-with-a-soul to Spike-with-a-soul, it's pretty ridiculous to say that Spike has a much shorter list of reprehensible actions. Of course he does! He only had a soul for two seasons! Angel had a soul, like, fifty times longer than Spike did. It's natural that he'd have done more bad things with a soul than Spike did. Check back with Spike in a hundred years, see if he's done anything comparable to Angel.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 17 2007 05:30 am   #23Scarlet Ibis

Just wanted to say that I didn't see the mind wipe as a bad thing- it was neccessary. A bad mind wipe would be what Willow did to Tara, and tried to do again to Tara and Buffy.  The circumstaces and reasons behind them were totally different, and I didn't see Angel as being evil, bad, or having a lack of morals of doing so in order to save his son.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 17 2007 03:51 pm   #24Maggie2

Eowyn, I don't agree with your characterization of my claim.  The bathroom scene isn't rape because rape didn't actually happen.  Nor is it attempted rape because Spike doesn't intend to force Buffy to have sex with him.  It's an out ofr control behavior -- and the analogy would be if Angel lost control of himself and almost killed someone, but then immediately regretted it when he came to his senses again.  I don't see that Angel ever regretted anything he did.

Evil lawyers deserve to be killed.  In the Buffy universe evil people don't deserve to be killed.  Buffy couldn't kill Warren.  In the real world, we don't get to kill people because they are evil, either.  And you can only kill in self-defense when your life is actually threatened at the time -- which is not Angel's situation here.  I agree that this is a greyer action.  But anything like this in the real world would have Angel in jail doing time.

The attempted murder of Wesley is closest to the uncontrollable rage thing.  Except that Angel never repents of it.  (I don't think he does, anyway -- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Mindwipe -- The ends do not justify the means.  If to save my child I have to rape, torture or murder other people, it still is wrong to rape, torture or murder them.  A mindwipe is a grotesque violation of personal space.  Especially for Wesley who lost a huge chunk of important personal history.  We can UNDERSTAND why Angel does it and still think its wrong. 

You conveniently disregarded the murder of the innocent man Drogyn.  There is no moral theory that would justify that action.  By the standards of Kant it is simply purely wrong.  By the standards of virtue theory, it is not a virtuous action.  By the standards of consequentialism, there are not enough good results from the action to justify the badness of killing an innocent man.  By any moral theory this is an evil action. 

And starting an apocalypse and endangering the lives of your colleagues and innocent bystandards when there is NO expectation of making anything better, but rather because you want one moment of exercising 'freedom' also is not justifiable by any moral theory I know of.

He's handsome and sexy (to some people at least).  He is trying (for the most part).  But he has done actions that are objectively evil.  By the moral standards of the Buffyverse he has gone over to the dark side (killing humans for any reason, often).  By the legal standards of our society he would deserve to be in jail. 

Spike's first two years with a soul were much better than Angel's first two years.  And it's hard to see Spike having the sort of arrogance and lack of self-awareness that leads Angel to commit evil actions in the name of 'good intentions'.  But you're right -- the jury is out on that comparison.  I'd bet heavily on Spike winning the comparison though. 

Jun 17 2007 04:20 pm   #25SpikeHot

Spike had Buffy to help him out during his first year as a vampire with a soul, Angel had no one. Spike understood more about the aspect of a soul because he already met a vampire with a soul, there was already some information about a vampire with a soul. Angel was the first vampire with a soul.

Jun 17 2007 08:12 pm   #26Guest

Ah, but does it change if Drogyn willingly sacrificed himself? Because it was practically telegraphed from the time we met him that he was going to die in a memorable way, and there's this total vibe once the plan is in motion that really makes me think he knew what he was in for.

Angel and Wesley made their peace eventually after Wes rescued him from the bottom of the ocean. Time took Angel's anger about Connor's abduction away, especially after the boy reappeared, and he remembers that Wesley's intentions are always good, with the knowledge he has at the time. Angel assures Wes that he's a good man after he shot the robot-masquerading-as-his-father.

As for the consequential memories to Wes? He was happier after the mind wipe. He didn't have the pain of being forsaken by Fred after Connor's kidnapping. He and Gunn were on better terms. He didn't have to look at his friends every day and feel the guilt of all that crap that happened. Plus, nearly dying from having his throat slit?

I'd be happier not to know that stuff, too.

The thing is, without a season 6, we can only extrapolate on what happened in that alley. The demons could very well have focused on the Angel's team, and left the rest of L.A. alone. We don't know what they were ordered to do. The whole shebang could have been moved to another dimension, for all we know. And as for everybody who signed up - free will. It is a bitch, but they all had the choice. They knew exactly what the plan was, and did it, anyway - with the knowledge that the SPs would most likely retaliate. We can't pin that all on Angel.

CM

Jun 18 2007 07:18 am   #27Scarlet Ibis

Angel didn't go into that intending to kill Drogyn.  Unfortunately, Drogyn was captured (while under Illyria's protection) by that Baldwin guy in the fancy suit (I forgot his name).  Had Angel not killed him, which was really a mercy in itself considering the horrible torture the Black Thorn was forcing him to endure, they would've killed and tortured Angel (though he'd survive the torture, but they'd kill him eventually), and then come after Spike, Gunn and Wes.  He didn't have much of a choice there.

I still don't see the mind wipe as bad- it did improve the relationships amongst them all.

And as for when Angel initially was forced into having a soul, well, you really can't compare it to Spike who willingly walked into it.  Angel was lost- he still tried to fit in with the rest of his scourge of a family, but couldn't seem to quell this need to not kill people, and saving babies.  After being shunned by Darla, he's lost- he has no one.  Can't be with the humans, demons or vampires, and is utterly alone.  I'm not entirely sure how one is supposed to cope with such a thing, but trying to practically disappear off the grid and keep to yourself seems about right.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 18 2007 11:06 am   #28Guest

Exactly - getting cursed with the soul was personally devastating to Angel in the beginning. His whole world is turned upside-down, allies are no longer allies, and he has the massive guilt trip to end all guilt trips. Liam doesn't strike me as one who made "true friends", and Angelus barely held affection in his heart, so Angel is clueless how to fit into his new worldview. His body craves blood, but he can't get it from the sources he used to. The demon craves violence, but the soul is telling him not to hurt innocents. And all without a single person he can lean on and spill his heart out to.

It says what a good heart he'd had deep down, that while pulling away from the temptation of humanity, he's still pulled to save innocent lives. There was nothing in the curse to *make* him help people - he just had to feel guilt for all the damage Angelus did. Could have spent the rest of his existence in a bottle of booze. And in a time when most crimes were punishable in most places by death, I don't blame him for killing rapists and murderers. But even that, he can't stomach anymore........taking human blood is just too painful.

I think without a guide or friends, Angel did the best he could, pre-'70s drop into homeless depression.

And Scarlet's right about Drogyn.

CM

Jun 18 2007 07:08 pm   #29pfeifferpack

Well it is noteworthy that Angel did little proactive good until he was shown Buffy.  That's about a hundred years where he (mostly) didn't eat people, was pushed to try to help the lovely girl in the hotel (then in anger leaving them all for the demon...because the girl "betrayed" him out of fear) and the US Govt. who blackmailed him into the submarine incident.  No search for redemption there, no trying to "undo" any evil he set loose.

He could have hunted down the powerful "children" he had spawned who were actively killing.  Not only Spike and Dru but Penn and James and Elizabeth were all master vampires killing plenty of people (not to mention Darla and the Master before Buffy came into his life).  Then he turned Lawson on that sub and while that made sense and was necessary....he didn't stake him after the sub was nearly in port but set yet another vampire loose along with Spike!  What of those killed because he made those choices?

Angel with a soul was actually Angelus with a curse that specifically called for him to feel guilt and he did.  And, to his credit, he started to become a real (however flawed) champion after meeting Buffy, especially after he left for LA.  Spike on the other hand chose the soul in order to make choosing good easier for him (to protect Buffy).  And he had made choices to help the side of good before the chip or the soul, something Angelus would never do.

Kathleen

Jun 18 2007 07:22 pm   #30Scarlet Ibis

To be fair to Angel, Buffy (initially) didn't kill Angelus when she had the chance (when she kicked him in the nuts during the whole Judge incident), and could've prevented the deaths of many, including Ms. Calendar, and saved Giles from being tortured, and she didn't kill Spike, during the Halloween incident, nor in s3 when she knew where Xander and Willow were.  Not being able to kill Angelus I get, but she let Spike walk away.

And Angel, you're pretty much asking him to kill his family, the one's he so desperately wanted to be accepted by, even though he was cursed.  He kills Darla eventually, but he surely didn't look happy by it.  He doesn't really want to hurt/kill them.  Even when he set Dru and Darla on fire- he could of did it so that it actually killed them, and not just scarred them.  Even Spike- as much as Angel pissed him off, couldn't kill him.  Drusilla couldn't kill Spike for his betrayal... they do have feelings.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 18 2007 07:33 pm   #31Eowyn315

Maggie, I wasn't suggesting that there's a one-for-one comparison between the bathroom scene and Angel's deeds. The point is that, in a general sense, it's not just the action you need to consider - it's the motivation behind the action and the circumstances surrounding the action that also color the goodness or evilness of the action.

In the Buffy universe evil people don't deserve to be killed.  Buffy couldn't kill Warren.  In the real world, we don't get to kill people because they are evil, either.

Well... I disagree a little bit. Buffy couldn't kill Warren because he was a human committing a human crime (murder with a gun) and therefore, it was a matter for the police. BUT how do you deal with a crime that is committed by magic or other supernatural forces? How do you possibly explain to the police that someone was killed using magic, or someone sent a demon after you to kill you? There is virtually no way to hold Wolfram & Hart accountable for many of the things they did - and also, as a vampire, Angel wouldn't have the benefit of going to the police to solve the problem. Even Kate - the only officer who remotely believed him, still wasn't enough to help him. You're absolutely right about the real world - but we're not dealing with the real world. We're dealing with a world that involves the supernatural - and in those cases, it is exactly people like Buffy and Angel ("champions" of the Powers) whose job it is to hold evil accountable. 

Buffy has said she can't kill humans, which is noble, but I think Buffy's moral code is limiting - she can kill all demons (good or evil) but she can't kill any humans (good or evil)? What sense does that make? Say what you will about his later actions, but in season 2, Angel actually shows a more sensible moral code in only going after evil - human or demon.

I didn't address the Drogyn issue, because I haven't seen the series in a long time, and didn't actually remember he killed Drogyn until someone mentioned it on the forum. So, I can't really talk about the circumstances, although I think Scarlet did a pretty good job.

Also, I think plenty of things have been brought up that illustrate the ridiculousness of comparing Angel with a soul to Spike with a soul, so I won't repeat them. I think it's absolutely impossible to make a comparison when their situations are so different.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 21 2009 01:11 am   #32ladycat713 
I don't really count Angel delivering the amulet as too much help. Fedex could've done the same job and without causing angst. Angel was too easily dissuaded from staying and fighting. A second front if they'd lost at the Hellmouth would've been unable to do any good since the majority of the forces for good would've already been wiped out not to mention the Turok khan (?) now roaming around and possibly spread and therefore harder to catch and kill/
Sep 21 2009 09:29 am   #33nmcil
With regards to the memory wipe - Our Memories are what make up our lives as we know it - taking away a person's memories is, IMO, almost as bad as killing them physically.   Angel's sacrifice of the memories of his AI Team, without their knowledge or choice, was not morally, IMO, the right choice.  Even under the horrific circumstance that became the life of Connor - Angel, nor any parent, has the right to have sacrifice another being as an exchange for another life.  The writers made the situation even more horrific by bringing in all those innocent people that would have been blown up along with Connor.  From the moral and ethical judgements and perspective, it probably should have been Angel's choice of action to kill Connor.  And as much as we hate to think that any parent or that Angel  would have to take that action,  it was not Angel's right to take away the memories of his friends. 

Nor can we, IMO, say that because Drogyn was going to be tortured or killed by the Black Thorn - Drogyn was collateral damage, a life that was sacrificed due to Angel's actions.  It was Angel's plan to go out in a Blaze of Glory against The Black Thorn and The Senior Partners that brought Drogyn, someone who was never given a choice to be part of the plan not to sacrifice his life for Angel's choices. 

As for the setting Darla and Dru loose on the lawyers - it is not the standard of comparisons against the actions of the evil doer or persons who commit crimes that we measure our heroes and champions against.  It is not be degrees of wrong that we set standards of moral law and behavior - if the lawyers and people at that wine tasting party are models of "wrong," Angel letting Darla and Dru kill them all does not make his actions right.  What were Angel's motivations when he did this?  If those people were what The Champion was suppose to eradicate or fight against - it was Angel who should have done the killing, not Darla and Dru. 

nmcil

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 24 2009 12:56 am   #34Rebcake
I'm with nmcil on the memory wipe thing. There were other options, none of them good, but Angel decided what was best for everybody, consent or no. And, he doesn't ask for consent. (I might have a different opinion if he had asked Wes, a la Dollhouse, if he wanted to forget. Maybe.) How is this different from Willow's memory wipe? Her excuse is also that Tara and Buffy would be happier without those pesky memories. Happier is all very nice and everything, but self-determination is more important, in my book. (And lots of other books, besides.) So he wasn't trying to make people forget his own misdeeds. He still took the easy way out. Feel free to disagree.

Really, this business of Angel making communal decisions all by himself, for his own reasons, is why he'll never be my hero. Especially since he chooses wrong so often.

Sep 24 2009 03:38 am   #35e33l 
I liked a lot of questions raised in AtS, but I always wondered why the writers never brought up how people look at doing the 'right thing'. Angel gets a soul and within a year goes back to Darla, Dru, and Spike. He's willing to let them slaughter innocents and he himself kills, even if he tries to only kill criminals (and they mention thieves specifically, when good people in such times as that revolution might have been driven to stealing, which is thought of differently than rapists). Later, does Angel stop killing because he understands right and wrong and wants to do right? Does he not want to add to the wrongs he's committed? Or is it totally selfish; that he chooses not to do anything that his soul would make himself feel bad about-- only to spare himself more pain? And even if humans can choose to ignore their souls or consciences, they don't suddenly have a terrible amount of guilt and torment thrust on them afresh before making that decision- humans often justify and make excuses and spiral down into not listening to what is good or wrong.

Humans are flawed and make mistakes, and with how long Angel's been around, of course he's made several mistakes, but my main problem is how he doesn't ever admit he'd made a mistake or a bad decision or the wrong call when he didn't have all the information (I'm only talking about his souled mistakes only). He sometimes beats himself up about how he feels awful in a bad situation, but he never admits fault. Sometimes he reminds me of the novel Frankenstein, how Victor is constantly claiming his creature's evil deeds are his own fault for making the creature, but moans and pities himself for feeling so horrible, but doesn't take any responsibility for the actions or consequences he admits are partly because of him. Then he never claims any fault, except that he was too intelligent and misguided and innocent at the beginning, when he made the creature.

BTW, Angel brought an innocent warrior for good, Drogyn, into a situation with the purpose of killing him. He said he wanted the black Thorn to believe he killed Fred, and he planted evidence. It sounds like Drogyn never found that evidence, though the Black Thorn did. Mission accomplished! But to be sure the Black Thorn quickly thinks he's gone bad, he sends an assassin after Drogyn to make Drogyn think he's gone bad, so the Black Thorn will think someone as good and pure as Drogyn wants Angel dead... he must be evil!  Angel says he knew Drogyn would come to warn Angel's friends, which means he knew Drogyn would come right to where the Black Thorn was because of his action. Angel sucked Drogyn into a scheme that had to end with his death, and he doesn't even seem to care! The plan might have worked even without Drogyn!
Sep 24 2009 03:42 am   #36Scarlet Ibis
Willow did it for selfish reasons--so they wouldn't remember her mistakes or why they were pissed at her, etc.

Angel did it to save his son, and the only thing that was taken from their memories was Connor--everything else was still there.  So it's still not the same.  Gonna disagree on the "Angel never finds fault with himself" comment, simply because it isn't true.

Eh, I'm too tired right now.  At any rate, not much to add that I or others up the thread haven't said in respect to Angel.  Who I love.  Yep.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 24 2009 06:43 am   #37nmcil
I think Angel does want to try and redeem his past - but I think that he makes a great many mistakes and one big flaw, in my pov of his character, is that  many times his choice for action becomes entangled with what is primarily important to his life.  His Drogyn plan is a good example - I need to go back and read the transcripts, but bringing in this other warrior, without his consent or knowledge of "the plan" is just one of the things that Angel does that is of very questionable morality. 

Another instance when I find his choice for action working from this "self centered" position is when he sends in Connor to fight Sahjahn.  Origins is one of my favorite of all the season - one where all the complexity of Angel and his life with the AI team come into play.  While Connor's life is saved in the end, Angel's choice to send him in, as Vail's instrument for killing, was done without knowing the full parameters of Vail's conditions.  We have to remember that Connor did not have his former fighting skills at his command - he was seriously being beaten by Sahjahn.  It was only by  Wesley's destruction of the Orlon Window that Connor was able to defeat Sahjahn and save his life.  Angel's choice for action is all predicated on his own needs to keep Connor's current life in place - he disregards Wesley's advice about Vail, he sends Connor into fight an extremely powerful demon, I guess on the assumption that somehow Connor would be able to access his natural fighting skills.  Angel went in thinking that he could help Connor if needed which proved wrong - it was only the breaking of the spell that saved Connor's life. 

Wesley and Illyria are great in this episode and their last conversation is splendid, an awesome resolution to the Connor Reality spell -

ILLYRIA: You betrayed Angel. You stole his son. He tried to kill you.

WESLEY: Yes.

ILLYRIA: Are these the memories you needed back? Does this now make you Wesley?

WESLEY: At least I know what happened.

ILLYRIA: Do you? There are 2 sets of memories--those that happened and those that are fabricated. It's hard to tell which is which.

WESLEY: Try to push reality out of your mind. Focus on the other memories. They were created for a reason.

ILLYRIA: To hide from the truth?

WESLEY: To endure it.


I love Angel as well, but he is one conflicted and complex hero model -


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 24 2009 07:37 pm   #38e33l 
Um, Scarlet, you might have noticed that Connor's existence had a bigg effect on all the AI team. BIG effect, and undoubtably caused them emotional conflict and they'd struggle with conscience and reason and feelings about everything, and maybe even change how they think or trust or believe in 'truth' or in other people. Taking away memories of Connor means changing their memories of situations surrounding him, which means changing their thoughts and fears and feelings. It wasn't taking away a car and replacing it with another, and with no memories of if the other car was worse or better or how. It was violating their experiences that had helped them change and evolve into the people they then were, and even if it wasn't obvious, undoubtably their thoguhts and feelings were different from who they'd been before when they had the complete memories. Don't try to shrug off that Angel had a good reason and wasn't trying to harm his friends that that means taking away the memories was OK.

Besides, why did his friends have to forget Connor? He remembered Connor. Why not make everyone but the AI team forget? they could be careful adn not visit him so enemies won't know about him, and go on with their lives, but still be the same people choosing not to talk about him rather than having their minds forcefully altered.
Sep 25 2009 02:30 am   #39Scarlet Ibis
Don't try to shrug off that Angel had a good reason and wasn't trying to harm his friends that that means taking away the memories was OK.

Besides, why did his friends have to forget Connor? He remembered Connor.


The bottom line is that he wasn't trying to harm his friends.  And as for why his friends--why everyone had to forget Connor existed but Angel wasn't Angel's choice--that was the only way the spell could be done (or at least, that was the deal that was on the table, so he took it).

Um, Scarlet, you might have noticed that Connor's existence had a bigg effect on all the AI team. BIG effect, and undoubtably caused them emotional conflict and they'd struggle with conscience and reason and feelings about everything, and maybe even change how they think or trust or believe in 'truth' or in other people. Taking away memories of Connor means changing their memories of situations surrounding him, which means changing their thoughts and fears and feelings.

As someone else pointed out up the thread, it actually improved the AI Teams interactions with one another, so it wasn't bad.  Honestly, I don't see why people make such a big deal about it--taking away memories of Connor, or adding memories of Dawn...

In the end, it didn't effect them or their relationships all that much.

I think the question is, how far would you go to save someone you loved more than yourself?  That was the option that was given to Angel to save Connor, and I don't blame him for doing it, or think he had nefarious intent whatsoever.  And in the end, doing what he did more than likely saved people from a suicidal and homicidal Connor. So yeah, not seeing the downside.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 25 2009 03:01 am   #40Spikez_tart
Besides, why did his friends have to forget Connor? - Anyone whose memory of Connor is wiped should be eternally grateful. :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 25 2009 05:06 am   #41e33l 
Tara forgot that she was upset with Willow, and the result was that she was happy and her relationship with Willow was great and she had fun with Dawn... so "it actually improved her interaction with others, so it wasn't that bad." The ends do not justify the means. Inserting fake memories and feelings connected to Dawn was wrong, too. If Willow decided memories of her mom and her death were making Buffy unhappy and took away memories of Joyce, with good intentions, and the result was a happier Buffy, is that alright? No!   I wasn't outraged throughout all of season five because I was thinking about how Angel started with a terrible choice about Connor, but when the issue is addressed to reflect his character and decision-making ability, I'm not going to let people talk as if it's irrelevent. At the very least, he could have asked his friends if they would agree to save Connor and have their memories wiped. I was also unclear at the end of the episode if Angel had the authority to sign up his team for something without taking whatever their decision might have been into account--

FRED:     (to Wesley) I can't believe it. Are--are you saying we should take the deal?

ANGEL:     I already took it.

FRED:      Angel, what--what?

WESLEY: You took the deal?

ANGEL
:   Executive decision.
Sep 25 2009 06:40 pm   #42Scarlet 
 There wasn't time in making the decision about Connor.  However, Angel's choice to stay at W&H was only about him--he didn't sign up the team.  They agreed to stay before that excerpt (except for Wes, who would have followed Angel regardless).  Gunn and Lorne were already on board, and Fred wasn't too far behind.

And comparing what Angel did to what Willow did is NOT the same morally and ethically.  That's apples and oranges there.  Willow only did those spells so people would forget her muck ups and not be mad at her anymore--she wasn't trying to solve the actual problem for the greater good.
Sep 25 2009 07:16 pm   #43e33l 
So havign good intentions makes any action OK? There's a saying about the road to hell...  And I know the others were talking about agreeing before Angel showed up, but Angel didn't know that. I wasn't talking really about the decision he made, I was talking about how he didn't think about anyone else's opinion. I've had friends who try to make decisions for me, and even if it's the same decision I would have made myself, I don't like it when the freedom and power of the fact that it is my decision is taken away. I have a right to make the choice.

But I guess we won't agree on Angel's flaws, so I won't write any more on this thread.
Sep 26 2009 03:30 am   #44Scarlet Ibis
My point is that you're misunderstanding the deal that was made in the last episode of s4.

It wasn't an all or nothing deal--the entire team did not have to sign on--they each could choose as individuals, and when Angel said he took the deal to be CEO, it did not include his whole team.  Did Angel signing up help sway a few others (Wes and Fred)?  Yes, because they willingly followed him.  But not one of them were forced to become apart of Wolfram & Hart.  

Yes, it's true Angel had everyone who ever met Connor--have his existence be erased from their memories, but that action did not coincide with their decision to join or not join W&H.  Especially for Gunn and Lorne--they were ready to sign on before Angel told Lilah to make the deal.

Yes, Angel has many flaws and has made many mistakes.  Saving Connor wasn't one of them.  In my opinion, of course.  Write what you like, and I'll do the same.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 04 2009 11:09 am   #45Sensei
wow, this is one filled with some of the best  replies I've ever seen on a bsv thread.  You all put a lot of thought into your answers and really gave me something to think about.

Instead of addressing topics already covered, I would like to add a few new thoughts. 

We all closely followed Spike's growth and changes through the seasons, but I was always amazed at the change Joss gave Angel as well.  I love Spike's personality as a "do-er".  He jumped right into every situation and got actively involved.  Sometimes he did it impulsively and it backfired, but he still was there actively protecting and helping those he loved--Buffy, Dawn, even Giles and the other Scoobies when needed. 

In the early seasons of Buffy, Angel just materialized to make doom and gloom pronouncements or warn Buffy of something.  Then he'd disappear again and was rarely at her side to help.  He certainly didn't often go patrolling with her to watch her back. In fact, at the end of season 1, when he heard about the prophecy that the slayer would die, I seem to recall he  just agreed that it was her fate and didn't actively do anything to help her--like trying to stop the Master himself, staying by Buffy try to keep her safe, etc. And in season 2 when Spike became a threat, all he said  was that Spike never stopped until he'd accomplished his goal; but he didn't go out and try to stop Spike himself or again didn't stay by Buffy to watch her back.  (He didn't even get to the high school when Spike attacked until after the other vamps had arrived.)

Then Angel got his own show and Joss let him grow as a character.  Angel began to be actively involved in saving people--perhaps Buffy had set a good example for him.  He learned to stand on his own two feet, take the lead, and even built his own little "scooby" group around him.  Through the following years, Joss created a complex, flawed and tragic hero--one we could cheer for, be sympathetic to, and yet shake our heads at when he stumbled.

It didn't help Angel that while Spike had the stability of Buffy (and to a lesser degree Giles, Willow and Xander) all the way through the series, Angel lost both of the initial people who had  believed in him and supportedvhim in his quest  to become a "hero" (Doyle and Cordy).

Don't forget I am at this site because I am a bigger fan of Spike than of Angel.  But I really got into watching both characters' evolutions.  Angel's path was dark and brooding, twisty, and full of wrong turns although leading in the right direction; his ultimate destination was the shanshu.  Spike's path, I think, was more like a straight Roman Road.  He knew exactly where he wanted to go even if he stumbled along the way.  His destination was Buffy, and he never wavered from that path.  The addition of the souls also meant both of them wanted to do what was "right" along their journey.

On another note, to me the most poignant scene between Angel and Spike that implied so much more than was said aloud was after Dana had been taken away by Andrew and Angel was with Spike who was in the hospital bed with his reattached arms.  They were discussing how vampirism and slayerhood (and perhaps Dana's childhood abuse) were thrust upon them all. ..how Dana was a victim and how once they had been victims, too.  It made my heart ache!

Oct 06 2009 06:55 am   #46nmcil
For me the Angel series was very much about the struggles with the inner demons that we create - this was a perfect metaphor for Angel/Angelus and the life he made for  himself.  The most tragic part of his story, one that connected the most with me,  was the continuous loop that he always seem to be caught in.  All the horrors from his Angelus life is directly connected to all the tragic results of  Connor's life.  Angel took the life of the Holtz children and in revenge and pursuit for what Holtz considered justice, he takes the life of Angel's son.   When he takes the W&H deal to save his son and the AI tean come over to W&H, ultimately Fred is sacrificed for Illyria and so it goes - his life becomes a nightmare manifestation of his history.  Even if it is Gunn that signs the paperwork, Angel is still caught up in all the pain and loss that is connected from his having to deal with W&H as a way to salvage what he can from all the damage that Holtz did. 

I was happy for Angel at the series ending that he shares his last day with his son and it was great to have Connor come and help him in what he sees as his last battle. 

Angel being given his own show was probably the only way that the character could be kept as part of the Buffyverse - his story in Sunnydale with Buffy was finished and LA gives him all his own place and life.  Even when he comes back in "Pangs" - he physically looks much older.  I sure wish that they would have given the Angel-Cordelia more time and development in the series - even is Cordelia was still taken away from him, it would have been nice to see them together as a potentially deep relationship.  It will be very interesting to see how the comic season and the LA Hell is resolved.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 07 2009 04:02 am   #47Spikez_tart
the most poignant scene between Angel and Spike - nah, it was the scene where Angel tells Spike he liked Spike's poems.  You have to think about it - Spike the bad ass vampire reading those dopey poems to Angel. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 07 2009 04:36 am   #48nmcil
"the most poignant scene between Angel and Spike - nah, it was the scene where Angel tells Spike he liked Spike's poems.  You have to think about it - Spike the bad ass vampire reading those dopey poems to Angel."

LOL - you are so right - they must both have been totally sloshed bordering on crazy for Angelus to have listened or read and Spike to have given him access. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.