i'm watching Never Leave Me, and Buffy and Spike are in the basement. Now did he mean what he said to her, or did he say what he said just to get ehr to kill him?

No, you got off easy too. (stands) Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you— (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry.

I think he meant it. There was too much emotion and guilt in his eyes for it to be a lie.

ETA: Also, I just remembered. In the AtS episode "Destiny" there was a scene where Angelus and Spike (then still called William) were riding in a carriage together in London. They had just broken up a wedding and murdered everyone involved except the bride. The bride was sitting in the carriage with them, clearly half-dead, and Angelus offers her to Spike because he's had his fill of her. Spike refuses. Later, when Spike walks in on Angelus and Drusilla having sex, he can't see who Angelus is on top of at first. He jokes "Guess you haven't had your fill after all." To me, this insinuates that he thinks Angelus is raping the bride and that it isn't something that is unheard for him. And since Angelus is Spike's "Yoda" ...

Yeah, I think he ment it too. But i wanted a second opinion.

Second opinions are good. Personally, I'd like to hear everyone else's take on it as well. :)

I think, from the way it's played, he meant it... but it still seems like a ret-con in that rape never seemed to be in Spike's character until they decided they needed to justify Seeing Red.

Oh, he meant it, no question.  But, that doesn't mean it wasn't a bluff.

Spike was disgusted with himself, and his soul was dripping with guilt.  I think he said the most vile thing he could think of-he even brought Dawn into the mix and ratcheted up the ick factor-so that she would give him what he thought he, and she, wanted.  A good old-fashioned dusting.

Ok, I'm in the minority here.

Actually...  I think in that moment, he was probably thinking "what can I say to make Buffy change her mind?  What will disgust her the most?  Simply turning people won't do the trick..." In FFL- he tells her in great detail how he killed the Slayers, and what a rush and thrill it was of not knowing the outcome.  Fist and fangs, blah blah blah..

And the part UB just mentioned from "Destiny," well, I interpreted it as Angelus "teaching" him the proper ways of being a vamp, such as drinking just enough... yada, yada, yada, but it really isn't Spike's style.  Torture in general, be it a human or a demon (and, he didn't torture Angel- he had someone else do it) isn't in his nature.  I think he watched, probably laughed... and if he did participate, I think it was definitely minimal. 

He likes to fight and challenges, and making some girl cry (unless it's a Slayer) would probably bore him. 

Also, he mentions the bride as being Angelus' spoils.  My take on that scene was that William probably fed on a few of the wedding guests, but the maiming and torture that he laughed and joked about was all done by Angelus.

And, how could Buffy *possibly* have gotten off easy, when she's stronger than him?  That made no sense whatsoever.  That line he gave her in the basement, and the SR bathroom scene is circuitous B.S. to me attempting to justify soulless Spike as being 100% evil.

Oh, and not saying that Spike didn't make room for torture, but I personally think he got it all out with his rail road spike (made fun of him when he was a human) victims.

I think I'm somewhere in between.  On the one hand, Spike/William clearly thought that ripping out eyes and limbs and raping half-drained victims was jolly good fun.  But as he says in What's My Line, Part II, the 'pre-show' was never his favorite part -- he liked to get to the killing.  I tend to think Spike's time as a guy who thought Angelus was a hoot and a yoda gave him enough experience to honestly make that confession to Buffy.  But he was still nothing like Angelus.  Thus, he could both accuse Angel of turning him into a monster (Destiny) and then agree with Angel when they discuss their different tastes (Damage).  So my take on Never Lie to Me is that Spike was telling the truth -- but with a big spin, over-emphasizing the relatively rare *very* dark side.  It's important to remember, though, that Spike's ordinary taste for violence led to slaughters of orphanages and so on -- so to say he's not quite as sick and twisted as Angelus is hardly a complement.

I agree with Scarlet that the whole schtick of Spike as Buffy's rapist is a crock.  She was strong enough to throw him to the wall.  That's not the experience of genuine rape victims.   The real reason Spike needed a soul was because he really didn't get what the problem was with all the stuff he had done in the past.  By season 7, he clearly does get it. 

Me like the growth in the character.  Me no like the way the writers used the contrivance of 'rape' to motivate the getting of the soul.

ok, this is me having a blonde moment. when he said she had gotten off easy, that did not dawn on me to s.r. rofl. i'm slow like that at times poor. me. i do agree, i think he was refering to a time when angelus still had him under his wing, and he was feeling the water to see what he liked. he used that to try and ruffle buffy's feathers.

Well, I'm not saying he made a habit out of raping and torturing, Scarlet. But I do think he did it at least once or twice when he was starting out. Especially the torturing part ... the raping he might have seen as cheating on Dru. But he seemed to have no problem watching Angelus rape someone and to me, that is no better than doing it himself.

I still don't see the rape part- there was never anything to indicate that that was something Spike was inclined to do or did.  William was always there- his romantic notions about him and Dru (or in general), his sense of loyalty, etc.  And he only tortured when it was personal.  Rape isn't adding up for me at any point in time for Spike.  Actually, I don't quite see Darla indulgining in that kind of "fun" either. 

Drusilla- yes, of course.  

However, I do agree that watching someone else do it isn't any better, even though one isn't committing the act.

Yeah, one can see spike doing it. And personally i don't see him liking it. he may have tried it, didn't like it and left it at that. Romantic notions aside, he's a vampire and of course he was going to test his limits see what he liked. Just like we know he was faithful to dru, but once she got sick what do you think he did? I doubt wanking off would have a lasting effect after a while. Not saying he went out and took it. But I'm sure he found willing women to help him.

I pretty much see the William-softness as extending no further than women he happens to love and/or care about.  As late as season 5 the only reason he can find to not drink the blood of a female disaster victim is because Buffy wouldn't like it.  That's not the reaction of someone with some latent softness for human females in general.

The Spike of seasons 2 and 3 just sliches through people he doesn't care about.  He breaks the 'not veal' guys neck for the hell of it; munches on the Magic Box lady when he decides she's of no other use to him and so on.  And he's awfully smooth at picking up Sheila, and he feeds her to Drusilla without any thought about her at all.  So I don't see why that Spike wouldn't rape a woman if he felt like it.  I just don't think he gets off on their pain and terror the way Angelus did.  Spike does most of his damage thoughtlessly, treating others like trash to be used and discarded at a whim.  Certainly he exhibits ZERO chivalry towards Sheila or the Magic Box lady.  And I don't think screwing random women would count as being unfaithful to Dru.  What Spike wouldn't have done (I don't think) is make love to another woman.  But rape a woman if he was in the mood?  Why wouldn't he?  He doesn't care a jot about the vast majority of human beings.  I'm just thinking he spent more time creating mayhem and fights cause fists and fangs got him off more... not because of some latent romantic sensibilities.  That seems to me to be a purely fannish construction.

I don't really remember the episode, but didn't Spike start touching Willow in a sexual way in Lover's Walk before she jumped away from him. I know some who consider then violent scene in the Initiative as Spike trying to rape Willow. The writers admitted that the scene had a sex conclustion with Spike not being able to perform "in bed", but Spike's intention was killing Willow and not raping her.

He got sniffy in Lover's Walk, and stroked her hair, but he was also *very drunk*. And Willow smelled good.

I think, in the beginning, that William would be given ideas by Angelus. I don't think certain things would have occurred to him to do, since he didn't seem like the type. But, once he's comfortable as a vampire, knowing his strengths and limitations? Anything goes.....Rape being a *frequent* thing? Nah. Something that he's done? Highly likely. If Spike was egged on or encouraged by Dru, I can see him doing anything. It Spike was really angry, I can see him doing anything.

Most nights, he probably just hunted like your standard vampire. But, if they happened to set up in a house with toys.....or he was extremely bored, well, it's too soft of us to not think he did all kinds of horrible things pre-Sunnydale. There was no reason he should care, after all.

Now, did he say things on purpose to get Buffy to end him (and his torment)? YES. He's too upset for there not to be *any* truth in his words, but we can't know the *exact* truth without having a 24/7 camera. I think with "her getting off easy", that it didn't just mean SR, but their entire relationship pre-chip. She did get off extremely easy considering Spike's past. Especially because young Buffy wasn't that great of a fighter. What she had, was incredible luck.

Caro Mio

I only scanned what everybody else said, so forgive me if I repeat.  I haven't seen the episode in awhile, either, so I'm just going from memory.  This discussion will probably prompt me to get distracted and watch it later, though :-)

Spike as rapist: Yes, Angelus was his Yoda, and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Angelus would rape both men and women, probably with Darla cheering from the sidelines.  And I could see Angelus teaching newly-turned William to torture, and mame, and rape, and just about everything else 'cause Angelus is a sadistic bastard.  I could also see William watching Angelus rape victims.  The line about Angelus not having his fill could definitely be interpreted in that way.  William seemed eager to learn from Angelus as is evidenced in the coach scene in “Destiny.”  Perhaps William even did it a few times, curious to see what it was like.  But I don’t see rape as something that would have occurred to William on his own, something that he would have liked, or as something that may have continued to be a practice once he was out from under Angelus’s wing—once he became his own vamp, so to speak, once he developed his own style, probably right around the time that he started calling himself Spike.

Was Spike bluffing when he told Buffy that she got off easy, that it’s not worth it if girls don’t cry when they are raped?  Based on my interpretation of the Angelus and Spike relationship, I’d say that Spike was not bluffing, but there’s nothing to indicate that he wasn’t perhaps embellishing to get what he wanted—Buffy to stake him.  What better way to push the woman whom you’ve tried to rape to kill you?  :-P  Bringing Dawn into the mix clearly shows how desperate Spike was to dust.  There’s no evidence to suggest that, while Spike was a veal kind of guy, he ever even THOUGHT about harming Dawn.  The Dawn bit was Spike’s attempt to push Buffy to slaying point.  Clearly, Buffy saw through it ‘cause she didn’t stake him.

Seeking sex elsewhere while Dru was ill after Prague?  Don’t buy it.  Spike was too devoted to her buy that point, too focused on making her well again.  Case in point (from WML, Part II):

Spike can’t wait to get it on with Dru.  One could argue that he’s just missed sex with Dru and not necessarily sex in general, but I don’t think Spike had been philandering.  Once Dru cheated on him?  That’s a different story.

Spike wanting to rape Willow in “Lovers Walk?”  Nuh-uh.  He hasn’t had a woman in weeks, and since Dru’s been shacking up with the slimy guy, he’s definitely insinuating sex.  But, Spike turns bumpy when he says it.  He’s mostly thinking of biting Willow.

I am anything but forgiving when it comes to men who hurt women.  I just think that Spike is so unpredictable, so layered, that one never knows what he’d do or not do, what’s in character and what’s out of character.  Spike had definitely done tons of diabolical things before he came to Sunnydale, but he was more interested in blood and mayhem and evil schemes than in causing physical or emotional or psychological damage to his victims.  That was more Angelus’s bag (see Drusilla and Buffy.)

Of course, all interpretations of the text—including mine—are all just conjecture in our attempt to understand the many plot holes and things left unseen and unsaid by Joss and his peeps :-P

I agree with IB- I don't think Spike had sex with other women until after the whole Angelus thing (especially with all of the mocking).

Spike killing people at a whim doesn't equate to wanting or needing a power trip raping others.  Cause rape is about the power, isn't?  Spike proves he has that by killing the Slayers.  He's got the title and the reputation (that he had only twenty years after he was turned- as an individual from the Scourge, anyway), and for the majority of his unlife, so it makes no sense (to me) why'd he rape afterward.

And the whole Willow thing?  He says to her "I haven't had a woman in weeks.   Unless you count that shopkeeper."  He meant biting/killing her- not rape.  And the Initiative breakout scene where he attacks Willow, yes the biting alluded to sex, and his attempted was posed to look like rape, cause because of the whole "Biting=sex/sexy/sexual/whatever" type thing, and the conversation afterward about his lack of performance funny.  But he wasn't trying to rape her then, either.

I know I'm going to get kicked here, but personally I don't think rape is about power all the time. In truth sometimes it is just about sex. I'm not going to get into it because that's a personal area that I don't like visiting, but it's not always about power.

I forgot about that scene between Dru and Spike, then then, yeah, no cheating on Spike's part, lol. For me I would love to have seen more into Spike's past, he's development into becoming what he was before coming to SunnyD. More fics exploring that would be great. *hint* *hint* I feel a challenge coming on.

I agree with a lot you've said, IB. I'm still on the fence as to whether Spike *actually* raped someone himself, because he might see it as cheating on Dru. But I do think the insinuations were there. And as I said before, he certainly watched Angelus do it and found it to be amusing. I don't see that as being any more moral than if he had actually penetrated the girls himself. Either way - he got off on it in some respect, whether it be for a laugh or an orgasm.

However, that being said, I don't see him cheating on Dru in the conventional sense. Especially not when she was ill. He absolutely worshiped her; he'd spent the the last century and more trying to impress her and make her see him as worthy of her attentions. So, I just don't see him going out and picking up a chick for a quickie. After she cheated on him with Angelus and then the chaos demon ... maybe. But I'm doubtful that he did even then. Because she was never exactly what one would call faithful. She slept with Angelus in the 1880s for instance. It seemed like he understood this was something he couldn't change and tolerated it as best he could. After all, *he* didn't dump her for cheating on him in South America. He caught her doing it, they argued, and then *she* said she was going to see other people. Had it been his choice, I doubt they would have split up.

The sexual innuendos with Willow were played for laughs, nothing more. At least that is how I perceived it.

And yep, he did some truly reprehensible things. A lot of fans seem to want to gloss over his violent past (I learned that when I wrote about it, lol) but the fact is, he was *evil*. He did evil things; he enjoyed doing them. That is what makes his journey into redemption so amazing.

Yep, UB, you've got it down. :)

Yeah, all we know post Dru is that he hooked up with Harmony some time that summer, because they were pretty familiar with each other when we saw them in HLOD. Spike's been digging underground for a while, Harmony's nested and bought lingerie....they have minions...And hell, even with Harmony, Spike is faithful. He might have been lusting on Buffy, and cursing Harmony's stupidity, but he still keeps going back to her.

Spike hated being alone, and vampire sex is still vampire sex.

CM

Since there's nothing definitive one way or the other, we are all filling in based on our version of Spike.  My Spike loved Dru -- and precisely because of that he probably slept around.  That might sound strange, but seeing as how she was neither offering nor asking for fidelity (Destiny), Spike would have had to make a distinction between sex and love in order to believe he had something special with Dru (love).  So that's why I totally see him being casual about sex (and taking it by force when things don't go his way) --because he really doesn't give a *@!& about anyone who isn't in his immediate circle.  He was smooth with Sheila.  He's had a LOT of practice with the art of seduction since his William days, and I find it hard to believe that oft-rejected William would have used those newly-honed seduction skills for JUST eating.  Anyway, none of that would have had anything to do with his feelings for Dru because -- to repeat -- evil Spike does not see others as people AT ALL.  How can you cheat on someone by using a thing?  And that's what sex with others would have been for him.  Wanking off in a more interesting way.  Not cheating at all.  Spike's faithfulness to Dru is manifested by the fact that he was never going to be the one to walk away; and if she had any objection to him fooling around he wouldn't have.  But she probably expected him to, and so he probably did.  Hell, she probably got off on watching.

I take the scene in season 2 as being all about how long it has been since Spike has made love to Dru.  My guess is he'd have said the same thing to Buffy if she had showed up in LA wanting to go to bed with him the day after he hopped on Harmony.

I don't think this little bit has been mentioned, but right after the rape attempt in SR, Spike charges into his crypt, flashing back on the scene in the bathroom.  Though he's clearly upset about it, he's heard saying to himself:

What have I done?  Clearly remorseful.  But then:

Why didn't I do it?  Clearly confused.  The way he said it seemed to me that he'd done it before, and had no qualms whatsoever with it.  And finally:

What has she done to me?  I think that small scene told me more than anything that he thought he was a soulless, remorseless demon, who should have had no problems with what he'd almost done, and that he'd done it before.  But for some reason, with Buffy, it was different.  And then, of course, comes the battle for his soul.

Even if I don't like the idea of the horrible things Spike must have done when he was evil, I don't try to fool myself.  I'm sure he did it all:  rape, torture, maim, and of course murder.  But, in my opinion, that makes his redemption all the more impressive, all the more amazing.  And I'm not necessarily referring to the soul.  Like many others, I don't necessarily believe he needed a soul to be redeemed--certainly not with the direction his character was going throughout Season 5.  As for Season 6 and the many issues associated with it, well, there have already been numerous discussions about that, so I'll just leave it alone! :-p

Coquine

I don't believe he was bluffing.  He may have brought up the subject to goad Buffy into dusting him, since he never tells her about the things he did before.  I didn't get his statement that she hadn't seen the worst he could do as referring to Seeing Red, either, or at least not specifically.  I thought he meant that she and her friends had mostly only seen him while he was chipped and couldn't rape, maim and kill is his usual and customary fashion.

With respect to Willow, although the scene where he tries and fails to bite her is mostly played for comedy, if you view the actual attack parts, it is very violent and frightening and it looks like he is trying to rape her.  In Lover's Walk it seems clear that he wants to have sex with Willow (which would necessarily imply force) as well as drink her blood.  Willow may actually want to have sex with Spike since she "invites" him into her room.

I also doubt that Spike is a totally one-woman guy with Drusilla.  It's interesting that with the exception of Fool for Love, we never see Spike and Drusilla have sex.  They cuddle and kiss and play around, but nothing more.  In the scene in South America, Drusilla implies that Spike isn't cutting it in the sack any more because of his obsession with the Slayer, which is why she has to find her pleasure elsewhere. 

Finally, Spike isn't faithful to Buffy.  He sleeps with Anya, he takes the girl (Tarantula) to Anya's wedding and it's implied that he's going to have sex with her or maybe he already has since he's french kissing her in public, and when he stops being a ghost, the first thing he does is have sex with Harmony. 

What have I done?  Why didn't I do it?  What has she done to me?

Very good to point out that scene, Coquine.  I hadn't thought about it before as I tended to see "Why didn't I do it?" as just what it says and not as referring to anything else besides what just happened to Buffy.  I could see how one would think that his words imply that he had raped before, so why not do it now?  However, I'm not completely convinced that that is what he was saying, but I'll definitely look at the scene differently from now on :-)

With respect to Willow, although the scene where he tries and fails to bite her is mostly played for comedy, if you view the actual attack parts, it is very violent and frightening and it looks like he is trying to rape her.  In Lover's Walk it seems clear that he wants to have sex with Willow (which would necessarily imply force) as well as drink her blood.  Willow may actually want to have sex with Spike since she "invites" him into her room.

Spikez_tart: Willow didn't intentionally invite Spike into her dorm room.  The door was closed, he knocked, and Willow--distracted in her grief of Oz's leaving--says, "Come in."  She accidentally invited Spike into the room, so she didn't invite Spike in for sex.  She didn't know who was at the door, but she was too wrapped up in her moping to remember that she shouldn't invite anyone in without knowing who it is :-P

As for "Lovers Walk," there are clearly sexual undertones, which Willow does pick up on: "There will be no having of any kind."  That scene does not have the comedic tone of the one in the dorm room, and it is clear that Spike hasn't had sex with Drusilla what with the slimey guy, and all; but, Spike does mention eating the shopkeeper.  He did not have sex with the shopkeeper.  The "Lovers Walk" scene is definitely darker than the dorm room, so it can be interpreted in more ways.

Spike and Drusilla: There is no way for us to know if Spike was always faithful to Drusilla.  We have concrete evidence that Drusilla was not always faithful to Spike (Angelus, chaos demon, fungus demon).  But since we don't get to see their 120-year relationship, I can't speculate on his faithfulness to Drusilla.  I'm not saying that he might now have slept with other women when Dru was off screwing other men.  I just highly doubt that he'd cheat on his black goddess while she was focused on him.

Spike was, however, 100% faithful to Buffy.  He never slept with another girl while he and Buffy were a not-so-couply couple.  He slept with Anya after Buffy dumped him.  Would we say that Anya cheated on Xander because she had sex with Spike after they had broken up?  Smart move? Nope.  But not cheating.

As for Skanky Goth Girl at the wedding:

SPIKE: You want us to go?
BUFFY: No. No, I ... you have every right to be here. I pretty much deserve-
SPIKE: That's not true, you... (sighs, looks at the ceiling) God, this is hard.
BUFFY: Yeah.
SPIKE: (sighs) I think we'll go.
BUFFY: Go where? To your place?
SPIKE: (not thrilled) Yeah, I suppose. That was the idea.
BUFFY: Yeah.
SPIKE: (defensively) Evil.
BUFFY: Of course.
SPIKE: But I won't. Or I... (frustrated) I'll just go. Give 'em my best or whatever. The happy couple.

They were French kissing, but, personally, I've kissed a lot of guys whose bones I never jumped.  Spike definitely thinks about taking Skanky Goth Girl back to his crypt for some action, but they he tells Buffy that he won't.  Even if he did go off and have sex with Skanky Goth Girl, it still wouldn't be cheating because Buffy has already dumped him.  In the words of Ross to Rachel: They were on a break!  Smart move?  Nope :-P  But not cheating.

As for stupping Harmony on the desk, that had to be Spike's biggest bone-headed move EVER.  But, as he was not with Buffy before or after he died, it's not technically cheating.  Smart move?  Nope :-P  But not cheating.

That was me, IB.  Laptop problems = double post and logging out :-P

Even if I don't like the idea of the horrible things Spike must have done when he was evil, I don't try to fool myself.  I'm sure he did it all:  rape, torture, maim, and of course murder.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not saying that Spike didn't rape because he wasn't evil enough. I'm sure he was evil enough to do it if he wanted to. I just don't think it interested him:

Rape, IMO, seems like a much more psychological evil than the basic murder and mayhem that Spike enjoyed. It always seemed more like Angelus' domain - he was always about "making them cry." I'm not saying he never did it, but I doubt it was a regular thing. I especially don't think he would bother with rape when he was with Drusilla. Why go for a quickie with your food when you can make love to your queen? As for what happened when Drusilla was off with someone else... maybe.

I'm not sure Drusilla was as unfaithful as everyone seems to think, though. Definitely, she belonged to Angelus at first. I don't think that ever sat well with Spike, but he was the newbie of the group, so he had to obey. But once he kills his first Slayer, when he becomes his own man(pire), I think he claims Drusilla as his own, and pretty much sees her as his until Angelus comes back. (It probably helps that Angel gets his soul around the same time and is therefore ashamed of what Drusilla represents. So, he's not competition for Dru until he loses his soul again.) Spike seems to think that everything will be fine and dandy once he gets rid of Angelus, which leads me to believe maybe Dru wasn't all that unfaithful (except with Angelus) until Spike made the deal with Buffy.

It's interesting that with the exception of Fool for Love, we never see Spike and Drusilla have sex.  They cuddle and kiss and play around, but nothing more.

IB pretty much said everything I would have in response to Spikez_tart, but I want to add that I think the reason we don't see Spike and Dru having sex has more to do with production issues than with the characters. Spike and Dru were together in season 2... the show just wasn't doing gratuitous sex scenes then. In fact, the only sex I can remember in season 2 is Buffy and Angel, and that was a Big Damn Event. For the most part, the audience was younger, the Standards & Practices were stricter, and they just didn't do sex scenes. If Spike and Dru had been together in season 5 or 6 - oh yeah, we'd have seen it (like FFL).

But if you want a reason that is based in character, then consider that for their entire on-screen relationship, one or the other was injured/ill. Drusilla is "weak" and so Spike probably wasn't getting much because he wouldn't want to wear her out, and the episode when she is healed, Spike gets the organ dropped on him. So, with him in the wheelchair, again, probably not getting any. If we'd seen them both at full strength at the same time, there might've been more action.

IB - It's true Willow doesn't know it's Spike, but she's lived on the Hellmouth too long to be inviting people in no matter how mopey she is.  Her actions later are more telling - she's flattered that Spike thought of her in a sexual way (the bit about the fuzzy sweater) and she encourages Spike to try again after he fails to bite her.  In some way, unconscious perhaps, Willow is equating sex with vampire biting.

Spike's comment about the shopkeeper is interesting, too.  We know he didn't rape her, but he thinks of biting in context with sex.

Spike unfaithful:  Buffy may have kicked him to the curb, but she's still the woman he loves and obsesses over.  He knows very well that having sex with Anya is wrong and will hurt Buffy.  He has to get drunk to even contemplate it.  Same for Skanky Goth Girl.  Since he's sober, he's able to satisfy himself with the thought that Buffy is jealous and hurt.  Harmony is really unexcusable.  Buffy's last words to him are that she loves him.  Whether he believes her or not, surely he'd want to find out the truth of those words for himself before he jumped Harmony's bones.  The fact that he does have sex with Harmony while loving Buffy, proves to me that he doesn't consider the occasional sex partner to be cheating.  Which it is.

In defense of newly, coporealized Spike, he was just excited to be solid again.  The first thing he does is touch, and touch, and touch Angel till he makes him stop (he has to remove his hand), and gulps down blood with such pleasure and relish as if there's no tomorrow.  So, on impulse, he wanted to do all his favorite things.  I can't blame the guy for that.  And he and Buffy still weren't together- even if she did "love" him.

And, Spike didn't wanna rape Willow.  In canon, sometimes biting in general is equated to sex or being sexual, or is a euphemism for it, but I don't think that means just cause Spike wanted Will's tasty blood meant he was gonna hold her down and then rape her as well.

 Spike unfaithful:  Buffy may have kicked him to the curb, but she's still the woman he loves and obsesses over.  He knows very well that having sex with Anya is wrong and will hurt Buffy.  He has to get drunk to even contemplate it.  

Actually, neither Spike nor Anya is aware that the other's know they are having sex in the Magic Box.  They have no idea about the nerds' cameras or the fact that Willow just tapped into the feed.  They only find out once it's over.  And Spike had no idea that he'd hurt Buffy by boning Anya.  Dawn comes to his crypt to tell him that he did, and THEN he goes to apologize.  That doesn't go well, as we all know.

Same for Skanky Goth Girl.  Since he's sober, he's able to satisfy himself with the thought that Buffy is jealous and hurt.  

SPIKE: (quietly) Hello, Buffy.
BUFFY: Hey.
SPIKE: It's a happy occasion. You meet my friend?
BUFFY: No. Not yet. But she seems like a very nice attempt at making me jealous.
SPIKE: (small smile) Is it working?
BUFFY: (quietly) A little. It doesn't change anything ... but if you're wildly curious, yeah, it hurts.
SPIKE: (softly) I'm sorry. (remembers himself) Or, Good!

Spike wants Buffy to feel jealous, to realize that she does want him.  But he also doesn't want her to hurt.  Spike is confused, but he's not being vicious.  He even leaves later to alleviate Buffy's pain.  Spike is anything but satisfied with the situation.  He has no idea what he wants at that point.

Harmony is really unexcusable.  Buffy's last words to him are that she loves him.  Whether he believes her or not, surely he'd want to find out the truth of those words for himself before he jumped Harmony's bones.  The fact that he does have sex with Harmony while loving Buffy, proves to me that he doesn't consider the occasional sex partner to be cheating.  Which it is.

Again, boning Harmony was beyond stupid, but he and Buffy had never established a monogamous relationship.  Technically not cheating.  The occasional sex partner is not cheating when there is no one on whom to cheat.  I'm in no way saying that Spike should have boned Harmony, that boning Harmony was a good idea if he had even the tiniest shred of hope of being with Buffy.  Spike wasn't cheating on Buffy, but he was cheating himself, cheating his heart. 

Okay - feeling ancient here.  True love?  Sexual and emotional fidelity?  Out of style? 

neither Spike nor Anya is aware - heh heh.  This is the Hellmouth.  Everybody finds out everything eventually. 

You know, before Spike slept with Anya, the last thing Buffy said to him was that she believed the love was real- for *him,* and that he should just move on and get over her.  And let's make it clear- Anya and Buffy were not BFF's.  They dealt with each other because Xander, Buffy's actual best friend was dating Anya.  I doubt they even had one on one time just for fun-- the mall, the Espresso Pump... Two people who got egg thrown on their faces spent a little quality time together healing (of course, Anya ruins it by trying to explain it away as Spike being convenient- "He was just there..."  Bah), and Buffy and Xander thought they had the right to come down upon them with righteous indignation?  They were the *dumpees,* and should therefore feel no remorse with what they do with their hearts or their bodies.

Okay - feeling ancient here.  True love?  Sexual and emotional fidelity?  Out of style? 

She dumped him. She told him she *didn't* return his feelings. How long was he supposed to wait before moving on? Yes, it hurt Buffy to see him with someone else. It always hurts a little bit to see your ex with someone else. But Buffy didn't want him - she made that very clear. Was Spike supposed to remain celibate for the rest of his life? True love and sexual and emotional fidelity have their place in a relationship, but when only one party feels that way, he's under no obligation to be faithful to a woman who doesn't feel the same way, and has no intention of returning said love and fidelity.

I second that, Eowyn315.  She dumped him.  He was not responsible for her feelings after that.  It wasn't Spike's fault Buffy was floating on a river in Egypt.

I don't think rape was his thing, he might have tried it during his days with the scourge.  But it doesn't seem to fit with his evil ways which are alot more about challanges, chaos and destruction. 

And not to forget, Angel telling Fred about the dangers of Spike's charm.  It seems to me that during their years togheter Spike was able to easily seduce women, he probaly did kill them afterwards but i think that they willingly went to his bed, only to find themselves sucked dry by a monster afterwards.

I think he may have seduced a lot of women to follow him, and then drain them or give them to Dru as he did with Sheila, but Spike was totally monogamous.  When Drusilla cuts him off for good, he makes Harmony his "girlfriend" just so he could come home to the same woman, for goodness sakes.  Spike could easily have gotten any female, demon, vampire, or human, and moved from one to the next.  But he didn't- he chose one he didn't particularly care for to sleep with.  And with Buffy, he had to work himself up to even say that he was taking his date home (which he probably didn't).  No point to rape or have sex with other women while Dru was sick- it wasn't Spike's deal.

It seems to me that during their years togheter Spike was able to easily seduce women, he probaly did kill them afterwards but i think that they willingly went to his bed, only to find themselves sucked dry by a monster afterwards.

That brings up a really good point, which we may have approached earlier in the thread, but never actually stated right out. Spike doesn't need to rape women in order to have sex. If he wants sex, he can go to Drusilla, and if Drusilla won't have him, there's no shortage of women who would fall prey to his seductive charm and good looks. Why force a woman when it's so easy to get a willing partner? (I'm not saying he necessarily *did* sleep with other women - that seems like an entirely different argument, in which Scarlet just made a good point - but he *could* have, quite easily.)

He also doesn't need to rape in order to have power. Spike doesn't need to prove anything by "conquering" a woman. If he wants to prove himself, he can take on a whole angry mob - or a Slayer. Raping a woman would probably be a really easy way for Spike to affirm that he's the Big Bad. But when has Spike ever gone for easy? He'd rather seek out a real challenge, prove himself against a worthy opponent - that's what gives him confidence and power, not forcing himself on one helpless victim.

And he doesn't need to rape in order to destroy his victim. If he wanted to, he could be like Angelus and psychologically torture them, make them cry before he kills them. Angelus loved the destruction of a human being - Spike didn't, and he's explicitly said so on the show. So, there was really no reason why he would choose rape when there are so many other things he enjoys doing more.

The most obvious scenario (and one that plays into his reaction to the bathroom scene) is that he must have seduced some women who decided to back out (maybe at the cool skin or lack of reflection or maybe just second thoughts).  Any chance he'd stop the flow of things because they weren't into it?  He'd have to care what they thought, and I don't see that he would have.  He'd have forced them through it.  There's not a shred of evidence that evil Spike would have given a toss if they decided to object at the last 'mo.  I mean, we're talking about the guy who you guys concede is planning on eating the girl afterwards in any case.

Other scenarios include fun and games with Dru and some 'dollies' and going along with Angelus.

I think all three are likely in the extreme... completely in character.

I also find it bizarre that there seems to be some idea that if Spike was a rapist he is some how less forgiveable than he would be as a 'mere' mass-murderer.  This guy ate entire orphanages.  We know what really happened to the little girl in the coal bin.  etc. etc.  The beauty of his story is precisely related to how far he had to come in order to make that change. 

Unless it was some weirdo game with Angelus in the first eighteen years of his vampiric existence, I don't see when Spike would make the time or have the desire to rape.  Not only would it be too easy and make no sense since we obviously agree he had no problem seducing women to follow him, it'd constitute cheating on Dru, and he seems to be very particular in who he sleeps with.  In fact, had Harmony not been there when he was recorporealized, I'm willing to bet he probably just would've went somewhere to "diddle his willy" as he so eloquently put it. 

Mass murderer, yes, serial (or even occasional) rapist or serial one-night-stander, nah.

Maggie, I never said he didn't do it at *all*. I think he must have, at least enough to be telling the truth when he says the line to Buffy in NLM. And I'd guess that it happened mostly under option #3 - Angelus encouraged it, or he wanted to emulate Angelus. The "it's not worth it if they don't cry" just reeks of Angelus' teaching. Have we EVER seen Spike that determined to damage his victim before he killed them on the show? He's not much for the "pre-show" and he just "liked the crunch." I think he probably did it because Angelus did it, but once he stopped needing to impress Angelus, it wasn't something he did habitually.

I think, if a woman had tried to back out, it'd be less hassle for Spike to just kill her right there, rather than to force her to have sex. Assuming they hadn't actually started, if they were still in the "propositioning" phase. If they were already in the midst of having sex, and she wanted to back out, then yeah, it'd be hard not to finish. But again, not a regular habit. And Scarlet makes a pretty good argument for Spike being monogamous - so I don't know that he even sought out willing partners at all. He may just seduce them in order to kill them.

I don't really see Spike and Dru doing the "fun and games." Maybe we don't see enough of their sex life to judge, but when Spike is with Dru, I think he's *with* Dru. Wouldn't want anyone else, even as a toy. And Dru seems to enjoy that devotion. I think it's more likely that they'd do what they did in FFL - kill, feed, and then fuck over the dead body.

I also find it bizarre that there seems to be some idea that if Spike was a rapist he is some how less forgiveable than he would be as a 'mere' mass-murderer.

I don't think that's the case at all. At least, that's not what I'm saying - maybe others do feel that way. I don't think not being a rapist would make Spike more forgivable, and I'm not saying he's not a rapist because I don't think he's evil enough to do it. I'm just saying - as I thought my previous post laid out - that it's not his preference. Saying, "I think Spike would rather murder than rape," is like saying, "I think I'd rather watch TV than listen to music," for a normal person. One isn't more or less evil than the other, and choosing one over the other doesn't say anything about your character other than stating your preference.

I think he may have seduced a lot of women to follow him, and then drain them or give them to Dru as he did with Sheila, but Spike was totally monogamous.  When Drusilla cuts him off for good, he makes Harmony his "girlfriend" just so he could come home to the same woman, for goodness sakes.  Spike could easily have gotten any female, demon, vampire, or human, and moved from one to the next.  But he didn't- he chose one he didn't particularly care for to sleep with.  And with Buffy, he had to work himself up to even say that he was taking his date home (which he probably didn't).  No point to rape or have sex with other women while Dru was sick- it wasn't Spike's deal.

Can I get a "Amen?"  

Spike doesn't need to rape women in order to have sex. If he wants sex, he can go to Drusilla, and if Drusilla won't have him, there's no shortage of women who would fall prey to his seductive charm and good looks. Why force a woman when it's so easy to get a willing partner? (I'm not saying he necessarily *did* sleep with other women - that seems like an entirely different argument, in which Scarlet just made a good point - but he *could* have, quite easily.)

Amen!

I'm sure that Spike used his sexual magnetism to lure away unsuspecting women so that he could eat them.  In fact, he's shown doing so throughout his tenure as the First's bitch, particularly in "Conversations With Dead People" and "Sleeper."  Remember the pretty blonde (not Spike, the girl blonde ;-)  ) in CWDP?  She approached Spike at the bar.  They are shown drinking, gabbing, and then he walks her home like the gentleman that he is.  Then the gentleman eats her :-P  In Sleeper, Buffy tries to trail Spike when she sees him lure a girl away from the line outside a nightclub.  He takes said girl into an alley, and she is clearly looking for some smoochies.  Then he eats her :-P  Also in Sleeper, Buffy talks to the bouncer outside of the nightclub, and he tells  her that Spike leaves the club with a different girl every night. 

Personally, I never made a habit of following handsome men in leather pants into alleys; but, I never met a guy who looked like Spike at a bar, either.  So, I can see why--with the eyes, and the cheekbones, and the tongue, and the accent--girls might be tempted to go with him willingly.  The girls Spike lures away in the episodes aren't looking to be eaten.  They're looking for some sallow-but-in-a-hot-way action; or, at the very least, a little snogging.  Why would he have to force a girl to do something that she's willing to do? 
I'm not saying that Spike would have sex with them before dining, just that he could if he wanted to do so.

LMAO- one bite stands... what sane, heterosexual woman could resist dipping off with Spike to some dark corner?

Hi Eowyn, We're probably pretty close.  I was mostly responding to the general tenor of this thread -- and trying to do the duties of staking out a minority position.

With respect to your position, I'm glad you agree that Spike almost certainly did rape.  I tend to agree that it probably wasn't a frequent thing.  I also agree that he wouldn't have raped for the sorts of reasons that Angelus did.  As Spike himself says, he never looked at the victims... i.e. wasn't interested in the 'artistry' of tormenting them.  But he also says he just didn't care about them, and that's a feature of his personality which was well-established in season 2.  And that leads me to think that if he'd felt like it, he'd have had no compunction about it at all.  Which means that he's still not anything like the "I would never rape a woman" Spike who often shows up in fanfic -- and it's in those sorts of fic that one gets the feeling that the supposed refusal to hurt women in that particular way is part of what allows us to see him as more redeemable than, say, Angel.  And that's the sort of thing I was mostly responding to.  If Spike didn't rape much, it's not because of some chivalric concern for his potential victims.  Even if he didn't rape at all (or much) he still has a scandalously black ledger to deal with.  And we seem to totally agree on this!

We do disagree about the Dru scenario.  But I don't see how we could sort it.   The fics which depict her as someone who likes to play with 'dollies' always ring true to me.  And since Spike was certainly willing to do anything for his dark princess, the rest follows.  Canon Dru seems capable of anything, but we don't get much detail about what that actually means.  But that's a minor thing.

 Guest and avid Spuffy reader here.  I always felt that Spike was speaking the truth here...he would know, especially having teachers like Angelus and Dru.  I also felt and still do, that Spike said this to get Buffy to dust him.

And may I say, I thought JM look absolutely gorgeous in these scenes...face and body.  I have a definite drool problem everytime I watch these scenes.

Shanna

An excellent example of what Spike The Evil Vamp was capable of comes in HLOD when he stakes harmony - that is a creature/man with no sense of guilt or loyalty or compassion.  Another side of his face is his actions with buffy and dru when he threatens to dust dru - with these women that he does love, his reaction was to vent all his anger and frustration in a great roar. 

Spike before he transformation and love of the slayer was a vampire, coached by some of the most vicious vamps ever - plus his scene in LMPTM when he states that he is not the same man his demon mother hated and reviled and the "destiny" episode, imo strongly suggest that he had done many acts to be accepted into the vampire role. 

The important thing about his description to buffy with the "You have'nt seen the real me" is that it begins with "You have to kill me" - He knows what he was capable of pre-chip and pre-buffy love and that being controlled by "the first" makes him a lethal weapon against buffy and everyone else there.

someone else posted (sorry don't have the name) that it was the difference between what he did and would do as "spike the big bad" and spike on road to change that makes he journey and story so compelling - i think that is what the majority of his fans love about his story and character.

William/Spike is left behind for a very long time except for his relationship with dru.

another thing with the raping of victims - with spike's looks, he could have had sex trouble free just about anytime he wanted - 

my idea is that left to his own patterns he would go for all the violence of brawls and killing just for the immediate gratification. his choice of torture would be more of bringing his victims to the ultimate point of fear; their immediate deaths at the hands of a maniac. this fear in his victims would add to blood as food. i think would have been his primary mode of hunting and feeding would be to make his victims filled with fear and suffering for their inpending death and their loss of love and connection to their loved ones.