Was there ever a decent family on the show? Even Joyce couldn't be described as a good mother. I think Faith, Xander and Tara had the worst parents, it is interesting how each one of them turned out to be in the end.

That we saw or heard talked about? Nope.

it's implied that riley's from a good family background, but never really put out there for sure...and...well...there's no one else, really. Everybody else's family lives sucked

huh

Joyce was probably the closest thing to a good parent, though she did too much deliberate repressing where she should have actually known some things about Buffy far sooner...I want to say Giles was a good example of a parent through most of the show, but the events of "Helpless" kind of undo all that...that was quite a betrayal there...

No, there's really no solid example of a good family dynamic in the show... :(

DoS

Spike had a good mother when he was human. Aside from the TB and the fact that she allowed him to cling to her apron strings for far too long...

I didn't see Joyce as a "bad" mother. I think she avoided seeing the things she didn't want to see, but that's human nature. She was always ready to fight to protect her daughters when she needed to.

I'd disagree that Joyce was a bad mother. I think it was hard for her when she didn't know about or didn't understand Buffy being the Slayer, but I think she tried her best, given the situation. And I can't think of one example in seasons 3-5 where Joyce would be considered a "bad" mother.

Also, if you're including Angel characters, Fred had nice, normal parents. But yeah, for the most part, I think it's pretty clear Joss has daddy issues. :P

I think it's pretty clear Joss had daddy issues.

You stole the words right outta my mouth :-)  Hank's disappearing act screams my-daddy-abandoned-me.  The women on the show being the stronger ones, the protectors?  My-mommy-raised-me-all-by-herself.  Trust me, I should know :-P  I don't know anything about Joss's childhood (although, I do live near Wesleyan University :-D ), but I don't think I'd even need my Psychology degree to come to those conclusions :-P

Anne, definitely (especially being a single mother in those times. Too bad she just couldn't tell William to "man up" every once in awhile).

And though Giles and Joyce weren't perfect, they were pretty close, considering the circumstances.  I think Joss had to have Giles mess up a couple of times ("Helpless," though he did come through in the end, even if it was too late) because of those damn daddy issues he has.  And perhaps his mom was a drinker?  A lot of alcohol moments with the parents... Cept for Anne (and maybe Sheila Rosenberg, though methinks she's a pill popper).

Scarlet, I don't really see the drinking thing. The only one with alcoholic parents was Xander. There's this fanon idea that Joyce was, too, but as far as I can tell, that's only based on Becoming II, when she has a drink after Buffy tells her she's the Slayer (which, let's be honest, I'd probably be drinking then, too). I don't recall any other time where it's even hinted at. And none of the other parents, that I can remember, have a drinking problem. (I'm thinking of Willow, Tara, Cordelia, Wesley, Fred, and Spike, which are the parents we've seen or heard about.) I'd agree, Willow's mom seems like the "abuses prescription meds" type, though.

One of the biggest things that screams "bad parenting" about Joyce to me is the constant guilt trips on Buffy. Not the punishments immediately after she disobeyed, but all the "I had to quit my job because you screwed up." "We had to move here because you screwed up." "Things are hard for me in a new town because you screwed up." Sorry, but when you're the adult, you don't blame everything on your child and their actions. She didn't encourage Buffy in positive things she did, but harped on all the bad things......until *after* she believed Buffy was a Slayer, and even then, there was the constant "Are you going to run away again?" questions, instead of getting Buffy to open up about WHY she ran away, and what they could do to fix it.

Joyce got drunk with her friend. I think it was at Buffy's Welcome Home party in "Anne". It seemed to be a common thing for while Buffy was gone - there was a strong hint that that was regular behavior.

CM

DO you think Joyce's drinking was a common act, or something that developed out of guilt beacuse she felt like she was a bad mother. She turned a blind eye to her daughter and her well being, she saw signs that something major was going on in Buffy's life but chose to ignore it and dive more into her work. And at the end she basically tossed her out, and Buffy ran away. Maybe that's when she started drinking, and once Buffy came back and they mended things then the drnking got better?

Tee hee Immortal Beloved...you are on the money!  I've read in bios that Joss' parents split when he was young.  His mom raised him without much interaction with his dad (Mom moved to England at one point with Joss and his dad was in California).  Oh yeah....daddy issues and then some!

That might explain his inability to let couples in love live happily too.

Kathleen

CM - and yes, the moaning and groaning whenever Buffy had to go do her duty

I don't think she was a horrible mother. (I mean, it could've been worse - she could've smacked Buffy around when she drank... well, until Buffy became super slayer and could hold her own, lol) She did annoy me with the stuff that CM mentioned and the somewhat immature way she whined when things didn't go the way she wanted. And being somewhat in the same boat as Buffy, being the oldest and all, it always drove me up the wall when Dawn got coddled and Buffy just got ragged on... I sooo know that pain. I also understand empty nest syndrome, but most parents still WANT their kids to move out and be independent... they don't whine and try to undermine that independence by guilt tripping their kid into spending all their time at home. (Though, I say this while my roommate's mother lives with us and is currently banging around in the kitchen over my movie.... and polluting my lungs with her cigarette smoke....)

Joyce got drunk with her friend. I think it was at Buffy's Welcome Home party in "Anne".

It was "Dead Man's Party," and yes, she was drinking with her friend. But there's a difference between drinking and getting drunk. First of all, they're drinking schnapps. If they were really trying to get drunk, they'd be drinking something stronger. She doesn't slur her words, she doesn't appear to have any problems with balance or reflexes. I'd say she was buzzed at best. And when you consider that it was a "friend trying to cheer up another friend" type of drinking, as opposed to the more dangerous "drowning your sorrows alone" kind, I don't see it as all that bad.

I also don't know where you're seeing these hints that it was a regular thing, whether it's all the time or just while Buffy was gone. Other than the two episodes mentioned (Becoming and Dead Man's Party), I can't think of a single line that indicates Joyce was drinking, a single shot of her with a glass in her hand... I can't even remember seeing alcohol bottles in Buffy's house. We've seen Giles drink way more than Joyce (and get very drunk on at least one occasion), and yet no one calls him an alcoholic.

Schnapps is at least 100 proof and therefore drunkworthy.  Joyce is plainly drunk in that scene.  That and Buffy's accusation in Becoming 2 - "Why don't you just have another drink?" are pretty damning. 

BTVS is not only the land of bad fathers, it's the land of bad Baby Boomers and bad parents.  (See the Band Candy episode.) 

Giles - formerly known as Ripper.  He has a bad past, a bad temper, ends up being a murderer and betrays Buffy on more than one occasion.

Joyce - possibly a drunk, gets all her parenting knowledge from self-help tapes, blames Buffy for her problems, including the fact that she can't get a date (substitute get laid.) 

Willow's parents - workaholics.  'We had these kids, now somebody else raise them' types who are too busy with their own precious lives (making money) to even notice their only child got half her hair chopped off and that she's running all over town every night.

Xander's parents - drunk and destructive.

Ethan Rayne - evil.  Into cults and destruction for fun.

Principal Snyder - a jealous, sadistic worm.

Tara's father - what a jerk.

Cordelia's parents - Total money grubbers.  Her father gets caught cheating on his taxes. 

Unknown mom - remember the kid who's at the playground after dark when Drusilla comes along?  He complains that his mom is always late.  She leaves him all alone in a park at night, forgotten, unloved and unprotected. 

What's most telling is that several of the Boomer generation characters have no children, the main characters have no brothers or sisters until Buffy acquires a mystical sister, no one gets pregnant (except Cordelia with her demon spawn) and no one has children.  Our two favorite vampires are sterile.  Tara has a brother, but he's bad news.

Spike's mother, although not a Boomer, can still be read as part of that generation, since he is frozen in time in his late 20's.  She is not a good mother.  She keeps William in a state of child like dependency long after she should have booted his butt out and told him to butch up.  And, where is William's father?  Dead?  Run away?  Given the way Anne clings to William and the fact that William's father isn't discussed, I'd go for abandoned his family. 

Angel's father - we don't see much, but Liam is in a fine state of acting out prior to be turned - drinking, whoring, stealing, leaving his drunk friend in the road to be run over and bragging about never doing an honest day's work. 

Drusilla's mother - before Angel turns Drusilla, her mother is all over her for having visions.  Drusilla's whole doll (read baby) fixation is beyond creepy. 

Nikki Wood - She takes her four-year old boy out at night, in the pouring rain, to slay vampires.  Given what we know about vampire sense of smell, Spike certainly knew that the kid was hiding under the bench.  Great Mom.  And, as Spike points out, she didn't love him enough to give up slaying (read her career.)

The only good family I remember is Fred's family, who search for her for years and turn out to be wonderful, loving and supportive despite all the suspicions of Angel and his crew when they first show up.

So, apparently, Joss likes Texans for raising kids, but everyone else sucks, LOL.

I wouldn't say Anne was a *bad* mother. She was ill for quite a while, so that changes their relationship. William might have been on his way out in the world, for all we know, and then stuck close to home to take care of her because she's all alone.

Society was much more devoted to family back then compared to now. You have to remember when considering Anne the time period she came from - WAY different to now. Women couldn't do many, many things compared to now. William had to either care for her himself, or hire someone respected to do it if he had the money for that. It's likely that his father is dead, and even more likely that he was much older than Anne. My great-grandparents were around in that time, and my GGF was 35 when he married my GGM at 18. He died in 1919, whereas my GGM died in the 1950s, when she was in her 80s.

Depending on Britain's property laws in 1880, Anne couldn't have even owned the house she lived in. It was William's. He would have been expected to bring a wife back to their house, and his mother would live there until she died. Generations of families only moved away from each other if 1) there was a massive falling out, 2) work was just too short and they had to go, or 3)war split them up as it carved through where they lived. It was not Anne's place to scold her son once he was an adult, because she's a woman. She can gently nudge, or mildly display her displeasure, but she *cannot* blatantly call him on anything. He would have been in his rights to treat her rather poorly for it if she did, because she was just a woman.

CM

So, apparently, Joss likes Texans for raising kids, but everyone else sucks, LOL.

I wouldn't say Anne was a *bad* mother. She was ill for quite a while, so that changes their relationship. William might have been on his way out in the world, for all we know, and then stuck close to home to take care of her because she's all alone.

Society was much more devoted to family back then compared to now. You have to remember when considering Anne the time period she came from - WAY different to now. Women couldn't do many, many things compared to now. William had to either care for her himself, or hire someone respected to do it if he had the money for that. It's likely that his father is dead, and even more likely that he was much older than Anne. My great-grandparents were around in that time, and my GGF was 35 when he married my GGM at 18. He died in 1919, whereas my GGM died in the 1950s, when she was in her 80s.

Depending on Britain's property laws in 1880, Anne couldn't have even owned the house she lived in. It was William's. He would have been expected to bring a wife back to their house, and his mother would live there until she died. Generations of families only moved away from each other if 1) there was a massive falling out, 2) work was just too short and they had to go, or 3)war split them up as it carved through where they lived. It was not Anne's place to scold her son once he was an adult, because she's a woman. She can gently nudge, or mildly display her displeasure, but she *cannot* blatantly call him on anything. He would have been in his rights to treat her rather poorly for it if she did, because she was just a woman.

CM

Amen! Maybe she should have encouraged him to come out of his shell more...but then again, maybe she did and we just didn't see it. Ultimately, it was William's decision whether or not he wanted to venture out into the world and make friends, and I commend Anne for sticking by him and loving him regardless. Although he mentioned in LMPTM that he wanted a wife, he really didn't seem comfortable socializing with other people. At the party in FFL he wasn't talking with the other guests; he was sitting alone in a corner writing poetry. Only his desire to be close to Cecily prompted him to join the rest of the group. He seemed like a very sensitive and fantasy prone personality, and I always got the feeling that despite his declaration of love, he really didn't know Cecily that well beyond being on the edges of her social group.

And if his father died when he was young (which, like you, is what I suspect) he wouldn't have had a male role model to help him figure things out...especially things about male/female relationships. It would have been considered beyond vulgar for Anne to speak with him about it. I can't imagine how confusing it would have been for him to try and figure things out on his own.

To me, it seemed only natural that he and Anne clung so closely to each other; for years they had no one else. The knowledge that she was dying made him that much more devoted, I'm sure. And you're also right in that, because of the time period he lived in, William would have owned the house and been expected to allow his mother to live with him so he that could take care of her. He seemed to be a nurturer both by nature and by necessity, and I think if he had gotten married, he probably would have treated his wife with the same obsessive devotion he showed Anne. I think that had more to do with his own personality than anything Anne had done to him.

Personally, I wish I could have had such an understanding and loving parent as she seemed to be.

Does having bad parents affect these characters? I think it does, let's look at the obviously abusive parents, Faith's mother never told her she loved her, and here's Faith who hides her insecurity behind Bad Ass Girl image. Xander's parents who drink and fight (and probaby hit) all the time made him insecure about others' affection for him, hiding insecurity behind sarcasm. Tara's father and brother yelled and hit her, turining her into a quiet, stuttering, trembling girl. Too insecure to defend herself or state her opinions.

I think if he had gotten married, he probably would have treated his wife with the same obsessive devotion he showed Anne.

I think that's pretty much a given, considering the obsessive devotion he showed to Drusilla and Buffy. :)

Well, I *knew* you'd agree, UB! :D The historical accuracy is one of the reasons I love your story so much.

SpikeHot - yeah, it does. We're all products of our parenting, or lack there of. While we all still have free will to make our own choices, much of what we do has been pointed in a certain direction by how we were raised. People with bad parents have issues, simple as that. 

CM

A lot of people view that obsessive behavior as a product of his being a vampire, which is why I mentioned it. I don't think that is the case at all. I just think he had a habit of clinging tightly to the people he cared about, even to the point of unhealthy fixation. Remember Spike's behavior in "Crush"? The shrine and all the rest of it? I'm fairly certain that was the William side of him acting on his infatuation, rather than the demon. I could easily see him behaving similarly (although without the kidnapping and death threats) as a human. And I really don't view that as being a result of his raising...

ETA: And thanks, CM. :D

I checked the Internet for women's inheritance law in Britain in 1880.  The Married Women's Property Act gave women married after 1870 the right to own and control personal property, so William doesn't necessarily own the house.  Even if he does own the house, he could certainly get married and bring his bride to live in the same place as his mother.

I think his mother uses her illness to keep William on a leash and the fact that Dad is never mentioned points to him abandoning Anne and William.  If he'd only died, he would be mentioned fondly, or Anne would compare William to his father.  Assuming of course, that the writers had time to get all that bilge in, but I think we have to assume that there is some family problem, if for no other reason than all the other characters have bad families. 

We also have to assume some problem with Mom since William ends up in an alley with a very unsuitable woman (Drusilla) and getting turned into a vampire instead of going home.  Taking up with a female who appears at best to be a pickpocket and at worst a prostitute seems like a fine way to get back at Mom and all her kind (Cecily).  William also picks out an unsuitable woman in Cecily - unsuitable in that she's unattainable and cruel.  He doesn't pick out a woman that he has some chance of marrying - thereby keeping his status as mama's boy.

William is silly, has no friends, apparently has no occupation and devotes himself to writing very bad poetry and his mother.  She treats him like a child, praising his silly little poems, singing to him, having him sit on the floor next to her like a lap dog.  It's more than just going along with William's character, she's actively encouraging him. 

Spikehot - I forgot about Faith.  Her mother may be the worst of all. Drunk and dead. 

I  checked the Internet for women's inheritance law in Britain in 1880.  The Married Women's Property Act gave women married after 1870 the right to own and control personal property, so William doesn't necessarily own the house.

I somehow deleted my first reply, so here it is again ...

A married woman who became widowed could only own property is she had no sons. If there was a male child, he would automatically inherit. William owned the house.

As for the rest of it ... that seems very much speculation. I doubt the writers wanted to waste time having William and Anne fondly reminiscing over William's father, and I certainly never saw any anger for Anne out of William. He even wanted to take her with him after he became a vampire. As for his being in the alley when Dru found him ... that seemed a lot more like depression than rebellion. Like I said, he was a fantasy prone personality who had just had his most cherished fantasy dashed by Cecily. That made him a very easy target.

A lot of people view that obsessive behavior as a product of his being a vampire, which is why I mentioned it. I don't think that is the case at all. I just think he had a habit of clinging tightly to the people he cared about, even to the point of unhealthy fixation.

I agree, UB. I think a lot of his behavior with Buffy was colored by being a demon (i.e. he always seemed to choose the creepiest way to show his affection) but the sentiment behind it was all William.

The Married Women's Property Act gave women married after 1870 the right to own and control personal property, so William doesn't necessarily own the house.

Do you mean "women who got married after 1870" or "married women, after 1870"? Because there's no way Anne got married after 1870. William was born in 1852 or 1853, and I assure you, Anne would have been married before her son was born. Assuming it's the second, then, does the law apply to widows? (Or abandoned wives, as you seem to believe William's father left them.) Because I imagine that, too, would make a difference.

I think we have to assume that there is some family problem

I disagree. I think, given the social norms and the health conditions of the time period, it's much more likely that his father died. I wouldn't assume there was an abandonment unless it was mentioned, simply because that was less common back then than it is today.

We also have to assume some problem with Mom since William ends up in an alley with a very unsuitable woman (Drusilla) and getting turned into a vampire instead of going home.

Again, I disagree. He was in the alley because he was upset about Cecily, not his mother. I can totally understand not wanting to explain to his mother what happened, so if he's going to get his crying out, he had to do it before he got home. Can you imagine going out to a party, only to come home early in tears, and have to face your mother? I know MY mother would be all over me, asking me what was wrong, and I wouldn't want to talk about it. So, yeah, cry it out before you go home, then regain your composure enough to say, "The party was lovely, Mother, but I'm quite tired. I think I'll head right up to bed." He just didn't get that chance, because Drusilla found him first.

He doesn't pick out a woman that he has some chance of marrying - thereby keeping his status as mama's boy.

I don't think he chooses Cecily because he doesn't want to get married and wants to stay a mama's boy (even subconsciously). He says he DOES want to get married - she's just not interested. I think he picks unattainable women because he admires them. Buffy was pretty damn unattainable, too, and loving her had nothing to do with being a mama's boy. Even Dru was somewhat unattainable at first, because of her devotion to Angelus. I think that shows he just has a pattern of loving women he can't have; it wasn't just Cecily, and it wasn't just about his mother.

Okay- Buffy is the one who insinuates Joyce's drinking problem in B2, and we see it again in "Dead Man's Party," so I think at some point, particularly after the divorce, she did.

Oh, but I still think she was a good mother. 

And Giles a good father, though he screwed up horrendously.

Okay, finally got around to reading most of that.

Long and short of it?  Anne was not a bad mother- just sickly, and a single parent in a not so friendly single parent age.  Being on the brink of death, there was only so much she could do, and if singing to her son made him happy, she'd do it.  William as well, loved his mother dearly, and knew that time was running out with her.  So holding onto that, the person he loved, and the only true constant in his life, is normal.  IMHO, his father died very early on, which made their bond even stronger.  There was no interference.

And as for loving the "unattainable," well... Love is blind, kids.  He didn't willingly seek out women who would reject him in some shape or form.  It unfortunately kept happening to him.  He wanted them to love him back as he loved them.  To be true, to be his... as he was theirs.  He didn't like to chose women who could hurt him- just pure, unfortunate happenstance.

That inheritance even extends to a woman having no males around her who could take the inheritance *at all*. And being upper class, Anne's husband would have had some kind of will, and even if William was only 5, the property and holdings would have gone to him, with the specification of an executor to take care of business until he was old enough. If William's father had had a brother, cousin, business partner, even best friend, they would have gotten everything before Anne did. She wouldn't have even been raised to know *how* to manage the finances.

And being upper crust, William wouldn't be expected to have a "job". He'd have the responsibilities of managing his inheritance - the money at the bank, investments, and property. And I very much doubt William was the type to fritter money away. He's a gentleman - the most activity he would be expected to do is ride a horse about town if he didn't want to be driven. His only "job" is to make his mother comfortable in the lifestyle she's been accustomed to.

Men could do whatever they liked.

CM

Verity, I think you hit on an important point regarding Joyce. Being a single parent is hard. Being a single parent when your child has been chosen to fight the forces of evil? Infinitely harder.

I think Joyce does a respectable job, considering her circumstances. She's a working mom, with increasingly less participation from Buffy's absentee father as the series goes on. (He starts out as a "summers and weekends" dad, and progresses - regresses? - to "Uh, I think he's in Spain somewhere...") She has a daughter who burned down a school building, was suspected of murder, and claimed to be a warrior in a battle against mythical evil creatures. Buffy is, putting it VERY kindly, a handful. 

I think Joyce tries her hardest to be a good mom, and although no one's perfect, I think for the most part, she recognizes her mistakes - which is a lot more than I can say for many real-life parents I know. The times when she's thrown for a loop are almost exclusively times when Buffy just throws something supernatural at her, and expects her to deal.