BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
Why Spuffy?
Guest
I'm just wondering why people like Spuffy so much and what got them into the couple, and when they started to like them together?
I discovered Buffy during S5, so I didn't have any loyalty to Bangel, though I can see the appeal of the relationship.
For me, Spuffy is about a relationship between two flawed, imperfect but very well-matched individuals. Bangel is about a girl in love with a tragic hero, and while it is a classic scenario, it doesn't do much for me.
And Spike? Well, Spike was just dreamed up to push my buttons. The accent, the hair, the black nail polish. Yum. Mostly I think I love seeing Spike love Buffy ... if the show had given us Spaith or Spander or Spara, I'd probably feel the same way about that 'ship.
I'm probably more post-Spuffy than Spuffy. But there are a lot of reasons for why I was first drawn to the relationship:
1. They have a good dynamic. Spike has this truth-telling ability that Buffy needs, since she tends to evade the truth. Her devotion to duty was something he needed, since he needed to see the possibilities of leaving behind a life of evil. They both give as good as they get, and I like the equality inherent in that. There's just a spark there... which is why Spuffy fic can be so much fun.
2. I love, love, love (and always will) the dramatic changes Spike was willing to go through for her. He doesn't remotely understand at the beginning how much he's going to change, and how much it's going to hurt (both themes that were first sounded way back in School Hard). But I like the process of him first trying to be good to impress her; then trying because he just wants her respect; to realizing that deeper changes are needed and getting the soul; to coming back and being willing to help her in the final fight. Most of this is done with him knowing, sometimes explicitly (The Gift, Season 7) and sometimes implicitly that he's not really going to get the girl, which means that I see his journey as essentially unselfish.
3. I love the range of the relationship. They really do know the worst sides of each other. And the best sides. In season 6 we saw them drag each other down. But then we got the healing in season 7. I totally agree with Jane Espenson that where they ended up was totally beautiful -- and it's a beauty that wouldn't have been so blinding were it not for the ugliness of season 6. I totally believe that we can't reach our highest heights until we confront the darkness within. And that's what the movement of season 6 and 7 was all about for me. (By contrast, Buffy's relationship with Angel never got to that real confrontation with their respective darknesses, largely because both Buffy and Angel wanted to push his darkness off onto 'Angelus' and they both agreed to not look too closely, if at all, at hers, which means that we haven't seen them hit the high of loving each other in full knowledge of who they both are.)
I tend to be post-Spuffy because I'm not sure that Buffy ever cleared her idea that Angel is her one true love (which for reason #3 I tend to read as a refusal to grow up in important ways). She projected a lot of her angst about Angelus onto Spike and never owned that. I go back and forth on this, but I mostly don't think she ever fully owned her part of the badness that was season 6. And we never saw her fully give herself the way Spike totally gave himself. They ended in a place where things could have worked for them. But that depends on just how much movement Buffy had done, and our picture of that is completely opaque. I'm glad Spike chose not to track her down. He has given everything, and I really do believe that even if Buffy did love him, he had good reason to believe she didn't. It's time for him to figure out what he wants for himself. And if she really does love him like that, then it's her turn to do the reaching out. Whoever Buffy ends up with, I think it would do her a world of good to do the reaching. Her spirit guide told her that she needs to love, give and forgive. She's made a lot of progress on that in season 7. But I don't think she's nearly done baking.
And that's probably more than you were looking for!
Well, for me I was just drawn to the character of Spike from point one. But when s4 rolled around, and their playground antics, and then the "what if" ep Something Blue happened, I was really pushing for a Spuffy. I loved the teasing, childish behavior they had with each other in the beginning. I was their for the Bangel, but it was too dark angsty for my tastes (which is why I particularly love that scene in "The Zeppo" when Xander interrupts their moment chock full of histrionics). And then, as it progressed, seeing their reactions towards one another, and Spike's devotion, it was just lovely (till ya know, Buffy got all scared and what not, and the dying...)
Furthermore, Spike treated Buffy as an adult, as a woman and as an equal, which was something that completely escaped Angel and Riley. He was threatened by her being stronger than him, and didn't have this possessive need to protect her from every little thing. He didn't have this idealistic view of her, and saw her for who and what she really was, and that was why he loved her. It was more complex and more realistic than the other pairings on the show.
But yeah, I'd be happy to see Spike with (*almost*) anyone on the show. Had it been Willow, well, there would've been a considerable amount of less drama, and a fight between Oz as a werewolf and Spike would've been interesting...
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The bickering, the fighting, the jokes, the totally hot sex, the angst, the tears. Everything.
I agree with a lot of what's been said regarding the complexities of their relationship, and how that makes them much more interesting to read and write, but what initially sold me on Spuffy was really the acting.
First, you have Spike, who was the most dynamic character on the show. James commanded my attention and made me love him. And, as with any ensemble cast like this, there is the tendency to want the main character with the person who is your favorite and the most dynamic. (The same thing happened on Veronica Mars with Logan, and I will admit that, when I started watching Heroes, I wanted Peter and Claire to get together because they were my favorite characters... for the record, I now realize why that's awkward and icky.) So, loving Spike as much as I do, the obvious result is that I want Buffy to love him, too... even when it didn't always make sense for the character.
Plus, Buffy and Spike on screen together was magic. James has chemistry with anyone and everyone, but he and SMG really were incredible together. Right from the very beginning, the sexual tension was there, their fight scenes were always charged, and they played it masterfully, even without really knowing the direction Buffy and Spike were going to go in.
As it developed, and as Spike changed and the relationship got more complex, a lot of the character-related things already mentioned came into play, and that's where I get my inspiration to write Spuffy, but as far as what got me into them as a couple? It was what was happening on the screen.
Guest
I love Spuffy because of the chemistry the have with one another. Even from the beginning in the alley scene I found they had ten times more chemistry than Bangel. Because, whether the writer's intended it or not, there was foreshadowing in season two about what their relationship was going to be.
Spike from the very first moment he stepped out of the Desoto and on the screen commanded my attention. He just had such a dynamic and presence to him. Then, the caring and love he showed the sick Drusilla clinched my interest in him. I found that the 'soulless' vampire showed more passion and care in his relationship with Drusilla then Angel did the whole time he was with Buffy on screen.
So when Spike realized his love for Buffy and the levels that it brought him to, it was astounding. What he did for a woman he didn't even know would ever love him back, it was amazing. So few people love that truly and passionately. It was complex and full of contradictions. Spike and Buffy had everything that Angel and Buffy didn't. I couldn't picture Angel and Buffy laughing together, truly having a good time, but I can picture Buffy laughing and having a good time with Spike once she let down her walls.
It's All About The Journey -
I totally love, respect, admire, and believe in the metaphor that is Spike and Spike&Buffy -
Love your post - well said
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
What a great film work and directing with that transitions shot of Vamp Spike into Human Face Spike when he turns to Drusilla - absolutely wonder film making.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
When the show was on it was fairly obvious (s4 and s5 anyway) they were going to put Spike and Buffy together at some point in the future. When they brought Spike back on during season four as this sort of pathetic guy with the ditz girlfriend I thought that was pretty lame. It was the easy route. Spike became this sort of ... reversal of what he had been in season two. Sure, it was the chip, but I really wasn't a fan of the way they went with the character. He as better as a bad guy. More unpedictable, less romance-novel hero-ish. They already had their funny man, Xander, and turning Spike into the comic relief seemed like poor writing to me. Throwing him into the unrequited crush roll so he and Buffy could look cute together was just too easy. Too predictable. (Keep in mind this was my attitude while watching it as it aired.) During the final season of the show I stumbled upon fanfiction for the first time and read a Spike/Buffy pairing that branched off into an AU after the first or second episode of that season and it just ... clicked. After that I had a hard time imagining Buffy with anyone else.Don't have that trouble with Spike though.
Re-watching it now I'm not nearly as annoyed, but there is still this little voice wishing it hadn't been so predictable.
~ Q
I thought Spike could give her something she had lost when she was chosen, because, like Xander and Willow, he was helping because he wanted to keep the world safe, not out of duty or because of "ought" or "should." And of course I have always loved the idea that without a soul Angel couldn't love Buffy, but Spike kept so much of his humanity. That was Spike--just when Buffy got used to things, he would push or pull her totally off balance. It seems like the greatest love stories have that element to them.
"Sure, it was the chip, but I really wasn't a fan of the way they went with the character. "
Don't you think that using the Chip as a plot device both continuity to The Initiative arc and Spike's removal from being the killer; he could not be allowed to remain in his Big Bad persona. Having chipped Spike allows for his ability to function as the killer through minions or other devices, thus the tension of uncertainty remained. Plus, how long could they sustain the Buffy vs Spike duel without turning Spike into a "forever failure." Spike was placed into a role, from the start, of failed attempts to kill Buffy even as his fangs are ready for the drain, Joyce is able to defeat him.
What alternative role could he have taken after? If he remained in the role of Evil Vamp, he would have to have been killed fairly early in the series as there was already a primary male vampire character in Angel. If Spike remained as The Big Bad, don't you think an entire season would have to have been created around that theme? The problem with keeping Spike as evil vamp was that the writers bogged his character so many failed killer of Buffy scenes.
When did I start liking Buffy and Spike together? from the moment Spike wakes up from his Buffy as Lover nightmare and we know that his great fear is his potential to love and to be consumed by that love. I loved that scene when his described himself as "an empty shell."
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
There are lots of good reasons stated above, but the enemies draw to each other is what got me hooked right away.
I don't like how they handled it. The chip became a way to turn Spike into more of a comical character with too many contradictions against the sort of character he was in s2 without much of a lead in. The Gem of Amara episode that led into the AtS episode was a good beginning because the audience saw him as a intelligent, if impulsive, bad guy. After the chip suddenly he's a bit stupid and unable to take care of himself after more than a century of survival not just taking care of himself, but a crazy Drusilla. Huh? Doesn't compute. Starving? Too stupid to grab the first minion he found and drain it? Doesn't make any sense. At least not against the character already in place.
He's been injured before and unable to hunt. The Master - head of his line - was trapped underground for decades. Angel fed off rats, and drank animals blood. He's got real world experience and vicarious knowledge (in canon) in dealing with and knowing about eating one step removed from the harming humans route. He's smart enough to study the slayer before going up against her. He's got the ability to hunt down supposedly lost artifacts using either his own knowledge or the knowledge of others. Yet, the chip had him starving and begging the Scoobies for food and help within the span on one episode. Imagine Wesley from s1 of AtS suddenly turning into Wesley of s5. It doesn't make much sense without the experiences of the in between seasons does it? Spike was handicapped by the chip just as he was with the wheelchair but handled it in such a slapstick and unintelligent way it didn't ring true with the character they created.
There was so much potential there with the chip and they turned it into vaudeville. Ropes tying a master vampire to a wooden chair? Keeping him in the bathtub while feeding him from a novelty mug? Sure, it's funny but it would have been more believable if Spike had a scene or two where it was made obvious he was putting up with that crap for a reason, or using them to his advantage. Or, at the very least, had some plan that fell flat.
Plus, I really didn't like the continued theme of "kick the Spike" where Buffy was punching him whenever he said something she didn't like and Xander picking on him, etc. Once or twice, no biggie, but over and over. Gaah. Just wrong. Sure, good guys are flawed and they each had their issues but what a contradiction. Suddenly they are petty. Where's the gang that, if reluctantly, allowed Angel back into the fold? Where's the people who accepted Cordelia and all her meanness? Where's Defender Buffy who doesn't put up with people picking on her friends or others weaker than them? Apparently they took a vacation along with Spike's brain.
Got off on a bit of a tangent.
Didn't mean to derail the thread. ~ Q
I loved Spike pre-chip and pre-love of Buffy but that is not the character that eventually I admire and respect and ends up being the most interesting of all The Buffyverse. That Spike, for me would have been another Caleb - a remarkable character but one that we always be an instrument of all the darkness and negative forces at work within a social structure.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Which is probably why I enjoy fanfiction so much. Lots of potential for fixing all of that.
And now back to the regularly scheduled thread.
How about that Spuffy, eh? Great stuff!
*chuckle*
~ Q
it also distracts the viewers from the vamp killer history and makes his transition into a potential ally or useful fighter on the side of the white hats a possibility.
You know what bothers me about that sentence? It distracts. I don't want to be distracted. I don't want to forget that Spike's a killer. The Scoobies certainly haven't forgotten. Glossing over Spike's past in order to make him a regular character is what made a lot of people dislike Spike in the first place. I don't want it glossed over; I want it dealt with. I want it to seem logical that even with his history, he is still a viable member of the group - he's already proven his usefulness, he's proven he can be trusted (well, sometimes...), he still can't hurt anyone with the chip, and loving Buffy gives him a reason to stick around. So why did we need the clown routine?
Absolutely. That is what is missing in the character's development. I would have rather have seen him being pulled in reluctantly because situations forced his hand (like the Angelus-Acathla incident) and have him still doing the frustrating bad guy thing - like leaving with Dru while Buffy and Angel were still fighting - until something, some situation forced him to reevaluate and change his actions without making him come off as some kind of idiot. The series, s4 in particular, was rife with opportunity for those sorts of sub-plots. Instead they stole Xander's funny-man hat and forced it on Spike's head.
*sigh*
~ Q
This was a show All About Buffy and not a show about Buffy and Spike in continual confrontation or Spike the Big Bad Vampire. Spike had to be allowed to change and transcend his vampire killer history while at the same time being a minor character.
If was extremely unfortunate that his transition from earlier seasons and his capture by The Initiative was not given more screen time and a much better exploration but we have to consider that the season story arc was the exploration of Good and Evil of The Initiative and the Romance and Relationship of Buffy;s search for life with Mr. Joe Normal Riley. For good or bad, that was the story arc when Spike was taken and chipped. Yes indeed there were so many more interesting things that could have been done with Spike's story, unfortunately he was not the primary story arc character. - Tthe writers took an easier path, comedic Spike, instead of a deeper exploration of options that he might have taken as the survivor and vulnerable predator - but they were not telling the tale of Spike.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Also, part of Spike's persona, his bravado, was throwing his weight around--dusting vamps that pissed him off, breaking the necks of people he thought were too old to eat. He thought he was utterly helpless against anyone or anything. Who doesn't hurt the helpless? His mortal enemy and her friends, of course.
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No doubt, total NO LOGIC - Nor particularly funny - but again, I think this is about transition - Spike can still be a killer and eventually work on the side of the series heroic side. Heroic Side, a side with great many flaws but still Buffy and her Scooby sidekicks are the series White Hats, whether we like it or not.
Great thing with all the FF writers, they can give us a totally different Spike, Buffy, and Scoobies. And who the hell ever came up with Scoobies - now that I think about it Scoobies Title is in fact my A Number One Pet Peevee.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
And true, as much as I'd rather see it differently this wasn't an ensemble show. It was "all about Buffy" so it is probably unrealistic to expect the creators and writers to focus on continuity with supporting characters such as Spike. But, -and here's my biggest issue- they didn't stay consistent with Buffy either when it went against the plot, or maybe better stated when it would have made the plot more complicated. I'm going to hold to my belief that it was possible for them to tell the story without turning Spike into a half-baked clown, or Buffy and the rest of her friends into emotionally obtuse bullies. Enjoying the show as much as I do, how can I not wish they had reached for the best?
I've read more than one interview/article/essay where someone or other claims the reason the show never won any of the big awards was because it was a horror show about vampires with a silly title. It's probably a little more honest to recognize that they missed the mark, time and again, when it came to great show essentials like continuity, keeping characters in character, creating a solid background world and let's face it - great acting. I'm more than aware I'm going to get some flack for stating this, but the lead actress, while good, wasn't always great. If the supporting cast had been even the tiniest bit less spectacular than they were I doubt we would have seen seven seasons. Being professional, always knowing one's lines, giving a technically flawless performance isn't always enough. Great acting, in my opinion, isn't always definable but I know it when I see it.
This show that I love has some serious flaws, but I watch it anyway and I don't turn my head and just accept the screw ups. Spike the clown was an enormous screw up. Buffy the abuser was a ginormous screw up. And so on, and so forth. No matter the argument I'm never going to buy that Spike, the character from s2, s3, didn't drain the first minion he found after escaping the Initiative and didn't spent the next however long testing every single limitation of the chip so he knew exactly what he was dealing with. No matter the argument I'm never going to buy that often bullied and treated like crap Xander, and even Willow, would support and participate in bullying behaviors toward anything they saw as unable to fight back - certainly not repeatedly. I'm not going to buy them letting Buffy get away with it, without at least calling her on it or vice versa from her. S4 Spike, and by extension how he was treated by the others was lazy writing in an effort to get laughs, or maybe to make Spike more likable to keep him on the show. Whatever the reason, it didn't work. They ended up with a radically changed character and lots of little continuity issues that could have been avoided.
Think the horse is dead yet?
(I officially declare this thread derailed and its probably all my fault.)
~ Q
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
If we're talking season four, then I don't see a problem in the Scoobys behavior. It hasn't been long since Spike tried to kill them, they can't just switch their feelings from hate to pity, even though it was clear Willow pitied and felt bad for Spike. The Scoobys were becoming too trusting of Spike that they paid for it in The Yoko Factor. Didn't Xander provide Spike army clothes just before he was manipulated by Spike? Wasn't Giles still keeping blood for Spike right before he was manipulated by Spike?
If Spike hadn't betrayed them, I can see that maybe they would have accepted him sooner.
Actually...though I haven't watched s4 recently, from what I recall, and please, someone tell me if I'm wrong, the parameters of the chip weren't fully defined yet--like it wasn't fully functioning until like twenty-four hours later or whatever. He's able to escape the Initiative with some semi violence against those lab techs, right? He's able to push through Riley and his friends to jump out the window, which comes after not being able to bite Willow. Once the chip has "settled in" or whatever, he can't even point a fake gun in Xander's direction. Now, this could be another snafu cause of the writers, but the first couple of eps while he's chipped, he can at least push people. As soon as he escaped the Initiative, he goes gunning for Buffy, and is kinda one tracked mind about it. He clearly didn't have time to kill anyone (I don't think) between escaping, and going to Buffy's dorm.
Spike trying to stake himself, well, is that really completely OOC? Sunlight takes too long--the waiting, and the slow burn, and Spike's Mr. Impatient. A quick stake in the heart is well, quick. Spike has lost a big part of his facade due to the chip, and is forced to live in a basement with Xander (granted, he could have found a demon doctor somewhere...but brain surgery is a big deal--perhaps he didn't trust it. When that doc comes to town for Riley, that was clearly a much more viable option), and notice how he doesn't try to off himself at Giles, where I suppose he had some semblance of dignity, but yeah, he tries to kill himself. What's the point, after all? No Dru, no Big Bad, no nothing. He gets over it in the same ep, of course (and hey, depression really isn't OOC, now that I think of it, and that's exactly what that was for him), with the aide of Willow, and learning he can kill demons. Xander takes cheap verbal shots at Spike, sure, but that's what he does. He did it to Angel all the time, and at least he's not putting his hands on Spike. Taunting him and verbal spars are one thing--hitting someone who can't hit back is a whole other can.
And Spike wasn't a complete buffoon as I recall it (though clearly, others are recalling this the exact opposite, but I'm working my way up to s4 real soon), and had several insightful moments. "Pangs" specifically comes to mind...damn, I have to rewatch the season. Anyway, Spike has layers, and considering the hell he went through that is season four, I can suspend my disbelief. Granted, season four is probably my least favorite season...but the Spike bits (and other bits) made it kinda fun. Even so, I did still not tune in every week when it first aired for that season sometime around "Where the Wild Things Are," and didn't see it in its entirety until later. Actually, it was "Restless" that specifically renewed my interest. And how strange is it that I'm kinda defending a season that I didn't even bother to watch all the way through the first time around? Yup, Strange is my middle name.
Spike washing his clothes--I assume he had minions for that, or stole tons of the same black shirt and pants and threw out the dirty ones. Pre-chip, he didn't have to hurt for money, or minions, and I'm sure clothes fit into that as well. Or hey, maybe Xander had a crap washer and dryer, and it screwed up the clothes, or you had to use very specific settings, and Spike wasn't aware of them. It happens (with old washers and dryers--my washer machine, in fact, has to be closed a specific way in order for it to complete the cycle).
And um...which flaw in Spike's plan, exactly? Buffy figuring out he was separating them on purpose? Been a minute since I saw that ep, so someone has to break that part down for me.
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That was never actually specified. It WAS a writer's snafu - they didn't know what they were doing with the chip. Spike does indeed hurt humans in his escape from the Initiative, and then is able to wrestle with Willow and hold her down on the bed in order to bite her. It's only the actual attempt to bite that causes pain. For pretty much the entire rest of the series, the causes of the chip's firing depended solely on whatever the plot (or joke) called for, and not any semblance of continuity.
He clearly didn't have time to kill anyone (I don't think) between escaping, and going to Buffy's dorm.
No, he didn't - otherwise he would've discovered the chip before he attacked Willow. But after he escaped from the dorm, what was stopping him from testing it out? Especially considering the limited circumstances in which it first operated - he should've concluded that he could hurt people, just not bite them. But at some point, he apparently determined (without ever testing the theory) that he couldn't hurt ANY living thing, only to be proven wrong a few episodes later, when he realized he could hurt demons.
And um...which flaw in Spike's plan, exactly? Buffy figuring out he was separating them on purpose?
No. The original plan was for Spike to "steal" some disks from the Initiative and give them to Willow to decrypt them. The contents of the disks were meant to lure Buffy to the Initiative for Adam's big massacre. But then Spike's plan of separating the Scoobies meant that Willow wouldn't be speaking to Buffy to give her the information, so Spike pretty much screwed himself with Adam. But actually it was the writers who forgot Willow needed to be talking to Buffy to give her the info when they came up with the brilliant "Yoko" plan, so they turned it into Spike's screw-up to cover their asses.
Spike's flawed plan...really, the writers could've just had Spike get the info from Willow, and give them to Buffy. It's common knowledge that Adam's been dissecting demons in the most awful of ways, leaving their part around town, so why would Spike be working with him? Him wanting the Slayer to take the patchwork bastard down would've been plausible. Of course, they just had to have Spike screw it up altogether instead...I think we can all agree that wasn't the first or last time the writer's completely missed the mark.
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And for Spike being presented as "dumbing down" his answer to Willow's argument regarding the subjugation and destruction of the indigenous population is actually a very realistic and intelligent assessment of human history. Spike being used as Comic sideman did not make him an automatic Blockhead - there were times when his character is used for cheap comic effect - i.e., "Damaged" with that scene Angel when he was thrown out of the window by Dana His beautiful and poignant scene with Buffy in the empty house is almost ruined by the writers having him describe himself as following his blood and his plans are sometimes not good (sorry again for having to paraphrase) That "I follow my blood was used to try for some continuity with the idea that Spike's plan were not usually effective and failed - I do think the writers made a big mistake with that line and that it did a big disservice to the character.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Think about the chip - the only way that it could work and still be an effective deterrent would be for it to work on intent. If it is to protect humans then it must work on intent and be able to identify a human being - without the chip's capability to measure intent how would it even work as protection? What good would it serve if it can only inflict excruciating and debilitating pain after the fact? In any cause of life and death scenario, either to himself or Buffy and Dawn or when he felt there was not alternative, Spike would have taken on the pain caused by the chip.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
