BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Bangel vs. Spuffy

Oct 10 2007 08:15 pm   #1Guest

I know there's been a shipper war going on between the two for what seems like forever, but I was wondering if anyone was ever a bangel fan before they were a Spuffy fan? Or if anyone has ever argued back and forth with a bangel fan about Spuffy?

Oct 29 2007 01:42 pm   #2Guest

I fell in love with the sweet relationship of Buffy and Angel from the beginning, so I guess I qualified as a bangel person--even tho' at the time I kept wondering why Angel was never around to help her patrol or try to save her from the master.  Then along came Spike and his very first episode I was amazed at the actor and the character.  Watching and cheering for Spike through the next few years made me totally spuffy--although I think she was horrid to him in season 6 and he deserved better (me maybe!).  But Spuffy fan tho' I am, I am not an Angel basher; I watched the Angel show and continued to cheer for him--just not for him paired with Buffy. (Of course, Angel got much better after Spike joined the cast in season 5, but like any good Spuffy fan,  I'll always hate The Girl in Question!!!!)

Oct 29 2007 02:22 pm   #3GoldenBuffy

I wonder why all the previous posts are gone? But I answered before, I used to be a bangel waaaay back in the begining, then when Spike rolled onto the sceen I just knew he and Buffy had to hook up. I think what it was for me that helped me sway towards Spuffy was the fact that what Buffy and Angel has weren't real. It was puppy love on her part, and hero worship on his. Plus him wanting to control every moment of their relationship, and deciding that it was better for her when HE left.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Oct 29 2007 06:14 pm   #4Guest

Technically I'm neither a bangel or spuffy shipper. I didn't watch Buffy until it was finished and was pretty much neutral to both pairings. I do now however like spuffy fanfic. Would never read bangel though unless it was spike/buffy/angel.

As far as I'm concerned anyone that says "When you kiss me I wanna die." Isn't in a healthy relationship. Personally when I love someone I want to be with them, not dive off the nearest cliff.

So yeah I personally think they should all find other people but if push came to shove I’d choose spuffy.

And no I haven't argued with any bangel shippers, what the point? ¾ of them live in their own fantasy world where everything is perfect and chaste.

Oct 29 2007 10:58 pm   #5GoldenBuffy

Don't get me wrong, season six was noth healthy, buffy was not healthy mentally ans she was taking her agression out on spike. but it wasn't as if he helped matters, putting himself there to be abused, so in a nutshell i HATED s6. it made me sick. but i also got to imagine what it would have been like between them. s7 made up a bit for it. i do believe that spike is the ONE for buffy and vis versa, but she needs/needed to continue to mature. spiek got thtat s5 angel and i hope buffy got that during the same time. now after their time apart and much soul searching on her part, because i believed it when she told him that she loved him. and after much taling and healing they can finally have the relationship that we wanted back in s6. and it would be healthy, lol. so i'll always be a spuffy girl until the end.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Oct 29 2007 11:02 pm   #6Guest

Season 6 wasn't healthy but the "When you kiss me I wanna die." was Buffy's comment to Angel.

Oct 30 2007 01:27 am   #7Snausigeer

sup all, im a dude, i like buffy "thank god we're hot chicks with super powers" --- Faith End of Days - nuff said

as for bangel and spuffy i think smg said it best in an interview. heres the quote, more or less but im drawing this from my memory so it maybe be off a bit:

"...part of me will always believe that angel is buffy's true love but buffy and spike will always share a special bond in that they both have lived a hundred lives..."  or something like that you can look it up on google or something for the exact thing

point is yea, true love = bangel, but really is true love all its cracked up to be? if two people are perfect for each, they fit perfectly together no friction or anything, then how can there ever be any spark?

besides angel had his chance and made his choice, with buffy and spike just when it seemed like they finally had a chance he dies saving the world

wow didnt mean to write this much but guess that comes with the whole author territory - ill be posting a fanfic soon so heres hoping you guys read and enjoy it - take it ez :goodevil:

snausigeer
Oct 30 2007 01:49 am   #8Guest

I think Jane Espenson said it best when she said that, 'Some would say Angel and Buffy really had more of an idealized first love with Spike and Buffy have the more adult, messy kind of love which is more realistic. That's right. It's not idealized and it's just so often ugly and yet when James Marsters does his stuff where you look in his face and you go 'Oh, mu God, he loves her so much!' Ahh, it's just so wonderful.'

'How do you follow-up her romance with Angel? I like the romance with Spike better. I'm more interested in the heat between those two characters because I felt Buffy and Angel had romantic love. Spike and Buffy have something so much more ocmplicated that it's got that romance and all this other stuff on top of it which makes it so interesting for me.'

Of course, I've never believed in one true love or one soul mate. Buffy loved Angel, but it was first love. It was new and shiny and when you think that everything is going to last, and when it doesn't you heart feels like it's going to be torn from your chest and you'll never love again. But you do, you find someone else, and that relationship is usually more complicated, messier, and yet more mature and meaningful. You've been through loss and you know what it feels like, and I think that means you able to love more clearly because of it.

Angel may have been Buffy's 'soul mate' but Spike was her equal and I think that means a lot more in the long run. I think someone made an analogy to Dawson's Creek once, and it really fits in that Dawson was Joey's 'soul mate', but she choose Pacey, and I think that meant something more.

~Nika

Oct 30 2007 01:53 am   #9Guest

I don’t believe in one true love. That's just...yeah I won't go into that.

I don’t think Buffy and Angel ever really got know each other and I think if they were ever to reunite it would have to be way in the future and they would really have to take the time to get to know each other and to learn who each other are. They’ve both changed so much over the years.

I just don’t think they did fit perfectly together, I think they were just very bland and they just didn’t know each other enough to make the pieces fit.

Oct 30 2007 02:09 am   #10Scarlet Ibis

The long and short of it?  You shouldn't be able to love someone you don't know, and Angel and Buffy don't know each other, and never took the time to understand the other. Buffy put Angel on a pedestal and vice versa.  It wasn't a genuine love, and to me, that means it didn't count.  Nor can they pick up where they left off--too much has happened, and the gap that was between them brought on by their idealization of the other has grown to a gigantic canyon.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 30 2007 05:24 am   #11GoldenBuffy

I agree with you Scarlet. Angel was not Buffy's true love. He can't be because he didn't know her and she didn't know him. He was the mysterious vampire hunk who was hounded by what he did sans soul. That's what Buffy loved, what she idealized in her mind. And Angel was in love with the idea of "caring" for the slayer. Not to mention what got his motor going was a 15 yr. in a skirt sucking on a sucker. I think that about sums his idea of her up!

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Oct 30 2007 08:00 am   #12Guest

I was on another Spuffy board and some (can't remember who) made a good point in the (what seems to be eternal) arguement in Spuffy VS. Bangel. In the scene where Angel tastes Buffy's blood he doesn't stop, it brings out the monster in him and he almost drains her to the point of death. In season seven, when a triggered Spike tastes a drop Buffy's blood he is brought back, the man is brought back from the monster.

~Nika

Oct 30 2007 05:36 pm   #13Guest

That's an interesting point.

Oct 30 2007 05:41 pm   #14TammyDevil666

That's very true, it just proved that Spike had more control over his demon than Angel did.  Sure, he was nearly dying, but if he really loved her, he would have been able to control himself more.

When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Oct 30 2007 06:27 pm   #15Eowyn315

In the scene where Angel tastes Buffy's blood he doesn't stop, it brings out the monster in him and he almost drains her to the point of death. In season seven, when a triggered Spike tastes a drop Buffy's blood he is brought back, the man is brought back from the monster.

I don't think that's a totally fair comparison, though. Angel HAD to almost drain Buffy. Wasn't that the whole point of killing Faith? If it was as easy as Angel taking a taste of Buffy's blood and stopping, they would have done it with no problem. But in order for it to cure the poison, he had to drink to the point of death. He wasn't about to kill Buffy so Buffy tried to bring him Faith. When that didn't work, they tried the next best thing, which was to drain Buffy *almost* to the point of death, and hope that was enough.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 30 2007 06:42 pm   #16Shadow

I think the whole gist of it wasnt the fact the angel almost drained her... I think it was the fact that tasting Buffy's blood made angel's demon take over... but when Spike tasted it... it subdued the demon and brought out the man in him

Tahlmorra lujhalla mei wiccan, cheysu.
Oct 30 2007 07:04 pm   #17Eowyn315

Is that really true, though? I mean, what does "bringing out the demon" mean? Buffy brought out Angel's demon (i.e. got him to vamp out and bite her) by punching him repeatedly, before he ever tasted the blood. Once he bit her, how could you tell that the demon had taken over? Whether it's the demon or the man acting, he still needed to drain her... in my mind, if the demon *were* in charge, he wouldn't have been able to stop.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 30 2007 07:15 pm   #18Guest

I just find it confusing to think as the demon and man as two different people. Far as I'm concerned both Spike and Angel are one person (each obviously), there's no switching between demon and human mind.

Oct 30 2007 07:22 pm   #19Scarlet Ibis

But there is demon instinct, which was what the First was triggering within Spike.  He was like...caveman vampire.  Spike's a talker, but whatever button was being pushed within him mentally cancled out his humanity temporarily.  And yeah, Buffy's blood snaps him out of it...which should mean something.  And I'm not going to hold an on the brink of death Angel 100% accountable for his actions.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 30 2007 07:27 pm   #20Guest

hehe caveman vampire, I'm just picturing Spike running around in a loincloth all grr.

Yeah I get the vampire instinct, I just don't like to think of them as split personalities. Demon vs human. But yeah I agree their was demon instinct there.

Oct 30 2007 07:29 pm   #21Maggie2

But isn't the fact that Buffy had to bring out the demon the point?  Angel was refusing to drink.  She brings out the demon to get him to drink. And he does.  The shooting script describes Angel as getting lost in the drinking, while it's killing her, until she finally screams and that gets through.  So there's a sense of loss of control on his part.  And, as Joss says in the commentary, the metaphor is very thin -- we're supposed to be thinking sex -- and we know how that works for Angel.

But there are other points where Spike's 'inversion' of Angel is clearest.  Loving Buffy causes Spike to get a soul.  Loving Buffy caused Angel to lose his soul.  Buffy had to kill Angel to save the world.  Spike voluntarily gave his life to save the world.  etc. etc.  I really don't see how Bangel works after Spuffy.  Unsouled Spike's ability to love Buffy and to get a soul forces her to admit that Angelus didn't HAVE to be so evil just because he didn't have a soul.  And her recognition of continuity between unsouled Spike and Spike (she recognizes the man who fought back against the monster) will make it harder for her to pretend that Angelus is some whole other guy.   And finally, she's got to wonder about Angel's zeal for her.  When Spike realized he needed a soul, he got the soul.  Angel's had five years of knowing about the curse, but he's never done anything to try to get the soul pinned down.  On the contrary, on at least one occasion, he deliberately tried to lose it by sleeping with Darla. 

Nov 01 2007 12:50 pm   #22Sensei

I just joined bsv so I was still a guest when I put up the 2nd posting on this thread.  I'm glad to see so many people feel that you don't have to dislike Angel just because you like Spike.  They both have their good points.  But I also agree with those of you who said Angel and Buffy had a crush/hero worship romance and that Spike and Buffy were evolving into adults with a real relationship that was just getting started when he died.  That is why I like post-Chosen fanfic; in Angel season 5 Spike really found himself again, and hopefully Buffy was doing the same in Italy (minus that Immortal garbage!) and they have grown to the point where they can have a healthy relationship now.  So long live fanfic!!!  (Now can anyone teach me how to make my avatar?  Email dogsled.fan@yahoo.com  Thanks!) Sensei


Nov 01 2007 01:21 pm   #23Nika

For Bangels I think a reason that some of them might hate Spike is because of his relationship with Buffy. I love Spike, and I don't hate Angel, in fact he can be a great character sometimes. I just don't like the relationship between Angel/Buffy and don't understand it the way I understand Spike/Buffy.

"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold
Nov 04 2007 09:04 am   #24Guest

What bothers me is that by the end of season seven Spuffy love was almost becoming Bangel schoolgirl crush love, only the "Never leave me" and "We're just friends" and "I believe in you" and "I won't kill you even if you kill a billion people" lines (rewatch s1-3 if these don't resonate Bangel with you too) were mixed with Buffy having to head the defense against the First Evil. It's almost like if they didn't blow their time on useless stuff like potentials and the First, we would have a nice romance.

I dunno, I always find the unrequited, realistic love much more endearing than the former.

And yeah, I find that Spuffy fans are usually much more better about Angel than Bangel fans are about Spike. I guess it's because Angel isn't all that threatening to our ship (not really anyway, besides the mixup in the end) whereas Spike is absolutely a monkey wrench in Bangel.

Nov 04 2007 09:30 am   #25Always_jbj

LOL. I GREATLY dislike Angel...not because of Bangel...not because I love Spike... just because I can't stand Angel. As far as I'm concerned he is a self-centred, narcissistic, manipulative, control freak. I never liked him, and as the seasons progressed I liked him less.

Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Nov 04 2007 01:45 pm   #26Spikez_tart
You shouldn't be able to love someone you don't know

Heh heh Scarlet - but not knowing someone makes it sooooo much easier.

Re Spike's tasting Buffy's blood.  Does he "recognize" the taste of her blood (he'd earlier threatened to bite her if she didn't stop being a bitch, which we know she didn't) or does Slayer blood have a distinctive taste? or does Buffy's blood taste different because she's been brought back from the dead?

Re Angel's draining Buffy - Did Buffy really intend him to nearly kill her? Or is she hoping that something less will do.  If so, is this Buffy's first suicide attempt?  (If you consider jumping off the tower a suicide, which I do.)

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 04 2007 10:02 pm   #27Eowyn315

Does he "recognize" the taste of her blood (he'd earlier threatened to bite her if she didn't stop being a bitch, which we know she didn't) or does Slayer blood have a distinctive taste?

We don't know for sure that he ever actually bit her, even though he threatened it (my instinct is to say no, I don't think she'd let him). If he never bit her, I'm not sure if he'd be able to recognize it or not. Spike mentions that the blood of a Slayer is an aphrodisiac... not sure if that would make it taste different.

Did Buffy really intend him to nearly kill her? Or is she hoping that something less will do.

When he protests that it will kill her, she does say, "Maybe not. Not if you don't take it all." But I think she was willing to do whatever was necessary. If it meant he had to kill her, she'd let him. She knew the cure called for "draining a Slayer" so she knew that was a possibility if she wanted to save him.

I guess you could consider that a suicide attempt, although I think there's a difference between willing to die and wanting to die. She's been willing to die plenty of times in the series - starting with facing the Master despite the prophecy. But I think jumping off the tower was the first time she also *wanted* to die, which I think is what really makes it suicide.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 08 2007 02:31 pm   #28Sensei

Hey Eowyn, I think what they meant about recognizing Buffy's blood was the taste he got iin season 7 after the First got him to turn all those people who held Buffy while Spike under the First's influence was going to bite her until the taste snapped him out of his daze.

The comments above made me wonder...Buffy was willing to sacrifice herself for Angel and did sacrifice herself jumping off the tower.  Spike was willing to sacrifice himself in the series finale for Buffy and for the world.  But did Angel ever show he loved anyone or the world enough to be willing to unselfishly sacrifice himself?  I don't remember it if he did.  Angel was trying to buy redemption for himself; Buffy and Spike were doing it for others.  Buffy and Spike were much more similar and nobel in their outlook than she and Angel ever were.


Nov 08 2007 04:17 pm   #29Scarlet Ibis

We don't know for sure that he ever actually bit her, even though he threatened it (my instinct is to say no, I don't think she'd let him). If he never bit her, I'm not sure if he'd be able to recognize it or not. Spike mentions that the blood of a Slayer is an aphrodisiac... not sure if that would make it taste different.

I speculate that he did taste Buffy's blood previously sometime in s6 (hell, it would add to Buffy's whole "degrading" part of the sex experience with Spike), because the First knows that he has tasted the blood of a Slayer before (he never actually tastes Nikki's blood), so it's fair to assume that tasting the blood of another one wouldn't make a difference.  I think he did recognize her particular taste because he tasted it before.  He only takes a little lick, and I'm hard pressed to believe that one itty bitty lick of something you never tasted before will snap you out of whatever thrall the First had him under.  I don't think the First would've made it that easy to lose Spike, especially since it's agenda was to get Spike to kill Buffy.  It wanted Spike to drain her, a Slayer, so tasting a Slayer's blood couldn't be a cure to snap him out of it--kinda defeats the purpose.  It had to have been the fact that it was Buffy's blood specifically, which the First didn't count on.  Spike is, afterall, able to ignore her voice, and her scent--both of which he is intimately familiar with.

Um...Angel went through hellish trials to save Darla. and there was no gurantee he'd win.  That was a sacrifice.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 08 2007 11:55 pm   #30Eowyn315

Hey Eowyn, I think what they meant about recognizing Buffy's blood was the taste he got iin season 7 after the First got him to turn all those people who held Buffy while Spike under the First's influence was going to bite her until the taste snapped him out of his daze.

Yeah, I got that. My take on it, though, was that in order to recognize her blood then, he'd have to have tasted it before, and we don't know that he did.

the First knows that he has tasted the blood of a Slayer before (he never actually tastes Nikki's blood), so it's fair to assume that tasting the blood of another one wouldn't make a difference... It wanted Spike to drain her, a Slayer, so tasting a Slayer's blood couldn't be a cure to snap him out of it--kinda defeats the purpose.  It had to have been the fact that it was Buffy's blood specifically, which the First didn't count on.

If the First knows that Spike has tasted another Slayer (the Chinese one), then why wouldn't it also know if he'd tasted Buffy before? It's possible that Spike knew it was slayer blood, and automatically realized it had to be Buffy's (because what other Slayer's blood would it have been?). In other words, any Slayer's blood wouldn't have been a cure, but Spike was able to make the connection to Buffy, and *that's* what the First may not have counted on. 

Angel went through hellish trials to save Darla. and there was no gurantee he'd win.  That was a sacrifice.

He also fought in a trial for that random pregnant girl, when he killed her protector by accident.

Honestly, every one of them - Buffy, Spike, Angel, even the Scoobies - all risk their lives just about every episode. They're always trying to save someone or stop some evil or save the world. Just because it doesn't come with some grand gesture like jumping off a tower or burning up in a pillar of sunlight doesn't mean they're not willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. And just because they manage to survive doesn't make it mean less - they still went into each situation knowing there was a possibility they could die, and they did it anyway.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 09 2007 04:34 am   #31Scarlet Ibis

As for making a sacrifice, Xander comes to mind in "The Zeppo" with the bomb as well as in "The Replacement."  He's the one to push Buffy out of the way from Toth's stick, not knowning what it would do to him.  Could've burned him to a cinder...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 09 2007 05:27 am   #32Guest

Angel went through hellish trials to save Darla...  I'd say that was for love- it's pretty obvious that the love of Angel's life is Darla and not Buffy, though I think he'd like it to be Buffy, because Angel feels guilty for loving Darla (as Buffy does for loving Spike) and he thinks Buffy is more worthy.

He also fought in a trial for that random pregnant girl -  That was out of guilt or a sense of obligation, both of which Angel seems to feel a lot.

- Cas

 

Nov 09 2007 11:24 am   #33SpikeHot

I'd say that was for love- it's pretty obvious that the love of Angel's life is Darla and not Buffy, though I think he'd like it to be Buffy, because Angel feels guilty for loving Darla (as Buffy does for loving Spike) and he thinks Buffy is more worthy.

  That was out of guilt or a sense of obligation, both of which Angel seems to feel a lot.

Are you saying that Angel's attempts to save others are less heroic than Buffy's because he's either gulity or in love?

Nov 09 2007 05:21 pm   #34Scarlet Ibis

hmm...I don't think the reason behind a heroic act matters--if it's for your best friend, for your lover, or family member, or you want the attention, etc., if you're putting your life on the line, you're putting your life on the line.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 09 2007 11:07 pm   #35Spikez_tart
We don't know for sure that he ever actually bit her, even though he threatened it (my instinct is to say no, I don't think she'd let him).

 

Heh heh - there's a lot of things that Buffy wasn't going to let him do ...  He might have tasted her blood without biting her - part of the whole degrading sexual experience (and you have to ask yourself, what Spike could possibly have been doing that a modern girl like Buffy would consider degrading) - or he might have tasted it on his hands after he punched her in a fight, in a more or less innocent way. 

Quick - someone watch all of season six for a clue, especially those Buffy wearing a scarf around her neck cause it's so cold in California.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 09 2007 11:48 pm   #36Guest

and you have to ask yourself, what Spike could possibly have been doing that a modern girl like Buffy would consider degrading

"Modern" or not, Buffy's sexual experience is pretty limited, and I would guess, fairly traditional. I don't think it would take much for her to consider it degrading. I think just the fact that it was with Spike makes it degrading, him being an evil, soulless demon. Also, that it was violent - I don't see Buffy as the type of person who is comfortable getting off on rough sex. And the handcuffs. And having sex in public places. Obviously, she's into all of it, since she keeps going back for more, but she hates to admit it, and she's ashamed of herself for liking it.

Being bitten could probably also be considered degrading, but to me that feels like a line Buffy wouldn't cross. Letting him bite her means admitting that she gets off on vampires, which she is very adamant in believing that she does not. It's one thing to enjoy her supernatural partner who lets her use her full strength and who can make it hurt a little in return, but it's another thing to take pleasure in a specifically vampiric act.

especially those Buffy wearing a scarf around her neck cause it's so cold in California.

I don't think that's really a clue. Buffy has *always* seemed to bundle up way more than necessary. (I may have noticed, and been slightly jealous of, her extensive winter coat collection.) Having never lived there, I can only assume that living in the desert, it can get colder at night in the winter than one might expect for southern California.

Nov 10 2007 01:08 am   #37Maggie2

I lived in LA for fifteen years -- Buffy wears too many heavy coats.  There are a very few nights when you might put on a heavy jacket.  But they are few.  And you just don't wear winter coats.  (Now I'm back in the land of the snow, and sadly had to go and get a winter coat.  I miss LA every day.)  :(

Nov 10 2007 01:51 am   #38TammyDevil666

Yeah, like in "Amends."  It was supposedly really hot out and she was wearing that white coat.  It was like she knew it was going to snow.

When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Nov 10 2007 05:50 am   #39Scarlet Ibis

True on the coats...however, in s6, she busted out with an arsenal of turtle necks, which was new.  Just saying...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 10 2007 05:51 am   #40TammyDevil666

Probably to hide all of the love bites...lol!

When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Nov 11 2007 04:55 am   #41Guest

I'm sure she had hickies to hide. ;)

Well, as a CA girl all my life, and also a petite thing, I get cold in winter! I'm talking sweater + coat + gloves cold. It gets down in the 40s and lower down here most winters at night, and when the air gets really dry, it feels even colder, like it's sucking all the heat out of you. It's sharp. Just last January, it got below freezing.

Now, the coats past March? Even I need a light jacket at most, unless we're having an extended winter feel.

CM

Nov 23 2007 10:15 am   #42Sensei

I think there was a good reason Buffy wore those coats--Sarah was cold!  Remember with all the filming done at night how James would say he used to loan her his duster to wear between scenes because the evenings were chilly? (until the coat got so old and stinky that she refused to wear it anymore!)

That was a good question above--why would Spike recognize her by the taste of her blood but not her scent or looks in order to snap out of the First's thrall?  Spike gave the answer when he said, "It's always about the blood."

Back to bangel vs spuffy, she did let Angel drink her blood to save his life, but since she insisted she didn't love Spike, I doubt she ever let him do it during season 6.


Nov 23 2007 05:59 pm   #43Scarlet Ibis

It's all about the blood, sure, but her blood would be irrelevant if he never tasted it, I would think.  The First knows enough about Spike's past to know that he killed slayers, and being a vampire, I think it's safe to assume the almighty first would think that he's tasted the blood of one of them.  So Buffy's blood being the key to snap Spike out of the trigger (which it does--the First is not able to control him after that, even if the trigger was still there.  He's kidnapped, and the First just talks to him in incarnations of Dru and Buffy to try to tempt him to change) has to mean something--something as in he tasted her blood before somehow or someway...  And the turtlenecks only existed inn abundance in s6--not before, and not really after (like one episode--after "Showtime).

I may or may not have said this up above, but honestly, I didn't feel like checking.  Either way, this is me pondering and surmising :P

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 23 2007 09:52 pm   #44Eowyn315

I think there was a good reason Buffy wore those coats--Sarah was cold!

This is just me doing deductive reasoning here, but "Buffy" filmed in southern California. It's also set in southern California. So, theoretically, whatever the weather actually was when they were filming, it should be similar to the weather conditions on the show. In other words, if Sarah was cold tramping around in "graveyards" all night, Buffy would be cold, too. 

So Buffy's blood being the key to snap Spike out of the trigger (which it does--the First is not able to control him after that, even if the trigger was still there.  He's kidnapped, and the First just talks to him in incarnations of Dru and Buffy to try to tempt him to change)

It doesn't really do as much as you credit it with. The blood apparently snaps him out of his trance, or whatever you want to call it, that one time. But we never see the First try to use the trigger after that, so there's no indication that it *can't* still control him. The trigger IS still active, since Wood uses it in LMPTM, so there's no reason why the First couldn't also use it. Probably, since the First knows that Spike is aware he's being manipulated, it decides to use a different tactic (kidnapping and torturing him).

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 06 2007 01:35 am   #45Guest

Going back to an interview put into another thread, who's love do you think was more possessive? Angel's or Spike's for Buffy?

Dec 06 2007 03:18 am   #46daniel_nieves

That's a tough one, I would say Angel's in my opinion. He stalked her more and believed that Buffy was solely his and wasn't capable of caring for anyone else by him as seen in ATS Destiny.

Spuffy peed on Angel...
Jan 13 2008 05:45 pm   #47Guest
I was actually on another forum for Spuffy and one person, I'm guessing Bangel shipper, was on the thread, posting that she/he thinks that everyone is secretly a Buffy/Angel shipper, even if they don't want to admit it.

Jan 13 2008 07:32 pm   #48TammyDevil666
Yeah, a big no on that one.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Jan 14 2008 04:59 am   #49nmcil
One thing that has to be considered is simply that scene is the foundation for the arc of "I Believe In You" the scripts has to include a control by Spike- 

there are several things that could have caused Spike to stop drinking from Buffy - it could just be that he remembers Slayer Blood and that Buffy is a Slayer - could also be his own memories of their former intimate sexual relationship, with his scent memory of Buffy coming into play.

As for Angel and slayer blood as cure - complete draining of a slayer, if that is the condition and Buffy intentionally plans to feed Faith to Angel, would that make this a premeditated murder by Buffy, manslaughter maybe.  This one factor of the sacrifice of Faith's life (if she must be drained) for Angel's life - I just can't find my way around that thus Buffy's Love for Angel was not a good thing.  That she will sacrifice herself, that is one thing, just like a parent is willing to give their life for their child, but to sacrifice another life to save your lover - how can Bangel ultimately be a good and postive love?  I think the writers really leave the morality of this episode in a very bad place - While this may have been intended as a sexual metaphor, I don't think that the viewers came away with that.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 14 2008 03:17 pm   #50Guest
I`m actually a Spuffy and a Bangel:)  .... I am more of a Spuffy then a Bangel (still love em`all though), i think the reason to that is because Buffy and Spike fills eachother in such a sweet way. He always makes her feel better and the way he looks at her (Buffy back from the grave, Spike`s look... Such a tear moment!!) always make me feel all tingely with just looking at that sort of love.. Angel broke Buffy`s heart and made her *don`t come close girl* wich i really hate him for, Spike was the one to open up her heart for love again..  The reason i like Bangel is the romance that us Spuffy`s could only see in "Toutched" "Chosen" and "End of days", I love watching them being a cuddely like that. But Buffy and Spike`s love is the purest, People may argue about this but it`s true... Spike loved Buffy even without a soul, Angel wasn`t abel too. So i think i might say i`M 55% Spuffy and 45% Bangel...
I think the two love stories are the best in history, and watching them always make me jello girl:).......
Jan 14 2008 10:32 pm   #51Quark
Never was an Angel/Buffy fan.  While they had some great moments (the best of which in my opinion is "I Only Have Eyes For You" because the acting from both was outstanding and far better than even the season finale) overall their relationship didn't have any true depth - at least not the kind that could sustain anything real or long lasting. (Can you imagine those two having an argument over whose turn it is to wash the dishes or take out the trash? I can imagine it between Spike-Buffy, but the idea of Angel in that sort of domestic situation falls flat.) I thought some of the best writing ever was "The Zeppo" because of the scenes where there is tongue-in-cheek acknowledgment that the whole Buffy-Angel thing is a bit melodramatic and full of high octane angst.

With that said, I can't say the Spike/Buffy relationship was much better.  Buffy doesn't have a successful healthy romantic relationship for the entire series because (and I think Whedon might have even said this in an interview once) frankly, it's boring.  Without some angst, some drama, it wouldn't be as much fun to watch.  For me, I liked watching the Spike/Buffy interaction the most.  Possibly because of the actors, possibly because of the writing, but overall - much more interesting.  I have a hard time imagining Buffy with anyone other than Spike because that relationship made the most sense to me in spite of the abuse/bad writing/drama of season six.

~ Q
~ Q
Jan 15 2008 06:32 pm   #52nmcil
"at least not the kind that could sustain anything real or long lasting."

This theme and the Angel Affair is just what Buffy throws out to Spike in SR - Not saying anything against Bangel but there are just so many references to how much they did not work together as the Long Haul -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 22 2008 05:59 am   #53Guest

Bangel to me was very unrealistic. I never really saw a time when they were completely there for each other. Angel was always off disappearing on Buffy. He did things in the relationship that he says were for 'her own good' but it always came off as more of being for his own good then hers.

I saw him sacrifice more for Darla, so I honestly think that he loved Darla more than he ever loved Buffy. Buffy was his ideal, the woman he wanted to love above all others. Darla and Cordelia, they were stubborn and vicious and didn't take any crap from him. In Spike's words, 'He saw the best and the worst of them.' And he loved them despite it. Angel never saw the worst of Buffy, not like Spike. I don't think Angel could have dealt with what Buffy was going through in season six, because she was not his 'ideal' Buffy then. Buffy never accepted all of Angel, she could never accept Angelus, who is a part of him despite how much they all try to deny it. With Spike, she saw the demon and she saw the man and she saw them joined. She even did admit to having feelings for ‘unsouled’ Spike, dismayed as she may have been by them.

Spike, the way he loved her moved me so much more. What he does for that love, changing and growing because of her. She, in her own probably unintentional way, brought out the best in him and raised him to levels of selflessness not many can reach when it comes to love. The brought out the worst and the best in each other. Even in season seven, it was only because of Spike that she was able to go on fighting the battle with the First.

And unlike Bangels, I don't need my ship to be validated by the writers. The actions of the characters already do that. I don't need Buffy and Spike to be 'soul-mates'. They were equals and partners. Buffy and Angel were never equals, one always had the other up on a pedestal and sooner of later people fall.

Though, I did once unknowingly stumble upon a Bangel board. Some of them seemed off in their own world, blaming Conner for being born to Darla and not Buffy and saying he ruined the pureness of Bangel love. I wouldn't have even bothered trying to argue with them, I don't think it would have done any good.