BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Explaining The Duster

Oct 20 2007 01:23 pm   #1SpikeHot

What's up with Spike's duster moving around to strage places? Why would Spike leave his duster at the stairs before talking to Buffy in the bathroom in Seeing Red? Why was the duster at the school basement in season seven and how come Spike knew where it was?

Oct 20 2007 04:30 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis

I actually took on the bathroom scene, explaining why he left it...He rushed out of there, soon after the incident I believe.  Him not wearing it in the first place to see Buffy were probably because 1- the director probably felt it would make him look more vulnerable without it (which it did), and 2- Spike was probably settling in for a long conversation with Buffy, which unfortunately didn't happen, exactly.

It was probably in Buffy's house long before the school basement, and Buffy probably brought it there (with some of Spike's other stuff- there were several boxes, and he was rifling through them like he wasn't sure which one it was in) sometime after she saw him there and before him  moving into Xander's.  The fact that his crypt was destroyed (and why would one crypt be singled out to be destroyed unless it was Spike's?  I surmise it was Xander, getting the anger and aggression out, but it could have been some demon as well), well, someone clearly salvaged his things (probably Buffy), and was able to save some of his stuff.  And of course, once he got himself together, she told him where to find it when he was ready to retrieve it.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 20 2007 05:28 pm   #3Eowyn315

The fact that his crypt was destroyed (and why would one crypt be singled out to be destroyed unless it was Spike's?  I surmise it was Xander, getting the anger and aggression out, but it could have been some demon as well)

Wait... huh?? When did they ever say Spike's crypt was destroyed (other than when it got blown up in As You Were)? The last we heard of it, Clem was living there.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 20 2007 07:15 pm   #4Unbridled_Brunette

I always thought that Spike's abandoning the duster in "Seeing Red" was a metaphor for his leaving his old life behind him.

I have no idea how it ended up in the school basement, however, unless Buffy brought it back to him. That's a lame excuse though. Why would she?

Faithfully bowing at the altar that is Stephen Colbert
Oct 20 2007 08:01 pm   #5slaymesoftly

Yeah, totally unaware of any destruction of Spike's crypt, other than torching of the basement.  I would guess that Clem probably packed up Spike's stuff and got it to him in the basement. Maybe he saw him somewhere; maybe Buffy told him where Spike was. Who knows? But if Buffy told him where Spike was, she might also have given him the coat that was left at her house at that time.  I don't know why he wouldn't have taken it with him to Xander's, except that it was a symbol of his old life and probably not one he wanted to dwell on once he had his soul.

UB - I think the expression on Buffy's face when she finds him in the school basement makes it possible to imagine her keeping the coat - perhaps not sleeping with it, as so many fics have depicted - but hanging on to it for him.  I don't recall if she would have known at that time that he took it from Nicki; if not, then there's no reason why she wouldn't have returned it to him.  IF she did know, then it becomes a bit more problematical to think she would have kept it and/or worried about returning it.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Oct 20 2007 08:30 pm   #6Scarlet Ibis

It's one of those canon facts mentioned offscreen, like learning Anne's name.  In fact, I read them in the same place.  Before Spike move's in with Xander, and Buffy confronts him of why he won't leave the basement, his response is "I've got no place to go."  The crypt was gone, you guys.  Like, a big pile of rubble top and bottom gone.

And I think...regardless of where he got it, or if Buffy was aware or not, it was still Spike's and had been for decades.  It's a lot more comforting than keeping a lighter in your pocket.  I think she did hang it up in her closet--she definitely took it from Xander, more than likely right after the bathroom scene, since that's where we saw it last that season.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 20 2007 09:03 pm   #7Eowyn315

It's one of those canon facts mentioned offscreen, like learning Anne's name.

And what might this mysterious "canon" source be? Sorry if I sound skeptical, Scarlet, but it's not the first time you've thrown out fanon or speculation and called it canon. In fact, I think we've had this exact discussion before about the destruction of Spike's crypt, and I don't remember a canon source (i.e. on the show, in a script, or out of Joss' mouth - and that last one's questionable, since he changes his mind, so unless it's written or filmed, I don't know that we can trust it) that said Spike's crypt was destroyed. 

Names are different - we don't always learn people's names on screen, but they're always given names in the script or the credits, so we can find them. But something as important as Spike's crypt being destroyed? That sounds like it should be important enough to mention ON screen, if it's meant to be part of canon.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 20 2007 09:15 pm   #8Guest

I think if Spike's crypt was destroyed it would have been mentioned on screen. Clem was in the crypt so maybe Spike didn't want to take back.

Plus he was newly ensouled, maybe the crypt held bad memories and he didn't want to go back there.

I certainly don't believe it had been destroyed. Other than perhaps the crypt set was taken down and that's why it couldn't be used again.

Oct 21 2007 02:52 am   #9Scarlet Ibis

When that season was out, my friend and I would go to this website (which I don't recall) each week at our high school library for spoilers, which is how I learned about Anne being his mother's name, the crypt being destroyed, and the fact that Spike was going to get his hands chopped off months in advance before "Damage" even aired, and tons of other stuff.  So yeah, you don't have to take my word for it--it's fine.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 21 2007 02:55 am   #10GoldenBuffy

That makes sense, him being souled and not wanting to live in teh crypt now. Plus, not only bad memories, but would anyone with a soul want to willing live with the dead?

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Oct 21 2007 03:32 am   #11Blood Faerie

Plus, sometimes we learn "canon" in books and interviews with the creators, from what I've seen.

Unfortunately, we had big vampires in the next room, and I didn't think they'd wait while we had hot monkey sex. ~Cerulean Sins :: (Anita to Jean-Claude)“Is there anything your bloodline does that doesn’t involve getting naked?" ~Danse Macabre :: I’m dating three men, living with two more, and having occasional sex with two others. That’s seven men. I’m like a pornographic Snow White. I think seven is plenty. ~Danse Macabre
Oct 21 2007 05:40 am   #12Immortal Beloved

The last we see of Spike's coat is when Xander brings it into Buffy's bathroom in SR.  Spike leaves town without it.  The coat ends up in the school basement, but we don't see it until GID.  The school was a new building, so it had to be someplace between Buffy's bathroom and the basement.  

We don't have any solid evidence of how Spike's coat wound up in the school basement.  So, we have to speculate.  My guess is Buffy gave it to Clem, and Clem packed it up with some of Spike's other stuff.  When Buffy found Spike in the school basement, either she or Clem brought him the boxes.  Or Buffy kept it for safekeeping until Spike got back, whenever that happened to be, and either she or Clem packed it up with rest of Spike's stuff and took it to the school basement.  Buffy and Clem seem to be pretty chummy when she sees him in the bar with the Potentials, so I think it's safe to surmise that they bonded a bit during Spike's absence.  It IS Sunnydale, and stranger things have happened, but I doubt that the coat got up and walked to the basement on it's own :-)

That sounds like it should be important enough to mention ON screen, if it's meant to be part of canon.

I'm with E on this one.  If the crypt were destroyed, it would have been pointed out in some sort of canonical way: verbally by a character, as a note in a script, or maybe even just a quick shot of the rubble in the cemetery.  Some sort of evidence would be available.  I mean, we even get a quick explanation of what happened to Miss Kitty Fantatisco when Dawn says, "I told you, I don't leave crossbows around all willy-nilly.  Not since that time with Miss Kitty Fantastico."  We hadn't seen Kitty since Season 4, but we found out what happened to her.  Surely, if the crypt were torn down, someone would have mentioned it.  It's possible that the writers thought about destroying the crypt, and for one reason or another, the idea was scrapped and revised.  Yes, Spike does say that he has no place to go, but the crypt's basement was blown up, and I just can't see souled Spike wanting to visit all of the bad Buffy memories there.  Just like the coat, it's a symbol of his old self, which Spike tries desperately to shrug off.  Besides, Spike was bug-shagging crazy at that point.  What did he know? :-P

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Oct 21 2007 06:22 am   #13Eowyn315

I don't think spoilers are the same as canon. Plenty of spoilers get leaked, reported, and posted on websites that aren't true. Sometimes it's misinformation, sometimes it's speculation, sometimes it's something that was supposed to happen but scenes get cut, scripts get rewritten, and for whatever reason it just doesn't end up in the show. That's why you can't really consider spoilers a reliable source of canon until they end up on the show. 

The other things mentioned - Anne's name, Spike's hands being cut off - no one disputes them because we can verify them. Spike's mother is credited as "Anne" in LMPTM. We saw the episode "Damage" so we know what happens to Spike. Nothing on the show ever confirmed that Spike's crypt was destroyed beyond what we saw in "As You Were." I agree with others who have said that Spike's "I don't have anywhere else to go" isn't definitive evidence that the crypt was destroyed. He could be saying it because Clem lives there now, because he doesn't want to go back with all the bad memories, because Clem moved out and some less friendly demon moved in, or hell, maybe because he's just bat-shit crazy and doesn't remember he HAS a crypt. Point is, there are any number of reasons why Spike wouldn't go back there, and nothing definitive that says the crypt was destroyed.

Plus, sometimes we learn "canon" in books and interviews with the creators, from what I've seen.

I wouldn't take the books as canon. I've never read them, but from what I can tell, there was little oversight by Joss or others involved with the show, and the books contain plenty of contradictions with canon. Interviews with Joss I could see being taken as canon - but as I said above, Joss has been known to change his mind, so anything that comes out of his mouth should be taken with a grain of salt unless/until it's backed up by the show.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 21 2007 03:14 pm   #14slaymesoftly

What Eowyn said!

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Oct 21 2007 05:10 pm   #15Guest

From what I recall of the scene where he gets the coat from the pile of boxes, it didn't look like the school basement - more like some warehouse or something. Clem would have boxed up Spike's stuff after Spike left and stowed it then. Nobody knew Spike was at the school until after Buffy found him, and then it seems weird that his boxes would be carried all the way to the very creepy school basement, which Spike gets pulled out of to stay with Xander. I'd more likely believe that Spike's stuff has been at a storage facility all this time - Clem would be thorough and considerate like that.

CM

Oct 21 2007 06:33 pm   #16Spikez_tart

Personally - I think the writers forgot that Buffy had the coat.

Spike's Coat abandoned - I agree with UB that he abandons his coat as metaphorically leaving his old life behind, but this is partly refuted when he puts the coat back on.  Maybe he isn't ready to leave it all?  Maybe he needs some part of it to help General Buffy.  Later in Angel the coat is destroyed and Wolfram gives him a new (identical) one.  He says something about the coat being part of his identity. 

Perhaps he has also abandoned his crypt (what's left of it) as part of his change, (and now there is no place that he actually belongs since he is no longer evil, but can't consider himself good in view of the past that is now weighing him down) but he gets sucked into the Hellmouth (school basement) when he comes back.  Buffy doesn't consider taking him back to the crypt - it's Xander's apartment or her own house (where he eventually ends up). 

Which of course raises many questions - how long is he back - what is he doing before he crawls into the school basement - was he crazy to start with or did the Hellmouth and the First push him over the edge?  How could Buffy be so cruel to leave him in the basement when he's plainly nuts?  How could she run off when he asks her to stay with him? 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 21 2007 07:37 pm   #17Eowyn315

From what I recall of the scene where he gets the coat from the pile of boxes, it didn't look like the school basement - more like some warehouse or something.

Sure looks like the basement to me. Immediately after he gets it out of the boxes, we see him walking down a hallway of lockers - plus, Principal Wood is there. Why would he be at a warehouse? How would he know where to find Spike? If it's the school, at least Wood sort of has a reason to be there.

Personally - I think the writers forgot that Buffy had the coat.

*snort* Probably true.

I agree with UB that he abandons his coat as metaphorically leaving his old life behind, but this is partly refuted when he puts the coat back on.  Maybe he isn't ready to leave it all?  Maybe he needs some part of it to help General Buffy.

Yep. That's pretty much exactly it. He goes to get the coat after being told by both Anya and Buffy that they liked the "old Spike" better, because he was tougher, and that's what they need right now - a warrior. Always thought that was kinda bitchy of Buffy - he went and got a soul for her, and she told him she liked him better soulless. Since the coat is a big part of his identity as "evil Spike," I guess it gives him the desire to kill that he needs to defeat the demon in that episode.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 21 2007 09:28 pm   #18Immortal Beloved

He goes to get the coat after being told by both Anya and Buffy that they liked the "old Spike" better, because he was tougher, and that's what they need right now - a warrior. Always thought that was kinda bitchy of Buffy - he went and got a soul for her, and she told him she liked him better soulless.

I think what Buffy was trying to point out is that Spike needed learn to integrate his weepy souled self with his badassed warrior self.  He did spend a lot of time weeping, which was perfectly understandable under the newly souled circumstances; but, what Buffy needed--what they all needed--at the time was for Spike to fight.  Granted, Buffy did verbally castrate him to get her point across.  She could have been a bit more sympathetic, but she was trying to rile him up.  And it worked. 

Later in Angel the coat is destroyed and Wolfram gives him a new (identical) one.  He says something about the coat being part of his identity.

Then the buxom Italian CEO of Wolfram & Hart gives him a new one and (something like) 12 others, and Spike is like "Cool, that'll do."  He shrugged off the old coat, his old self, but he can still be souled and be a warrior, just like Buffy.  New coat, new badassed warrior.  Sometimes, you have to put part of yourself on the back burner depending on what you need during the circumstances, but it's still a part of you.  Life has different situations, and Spike has to adjust to them all. 

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Oct 21 2007 09:50 pm   #19slaymesoftly

<i>Since the coat is a big part of his identity as "evil Spike," I guess it gives him the desire to kill that he needs to defeat the demon in that episode. </i>

Exactly! I can't believe there can be any ambiguity about that. Buffy tries to pull out the big bad who she needs for this fight; the demon kicks his butt (which someone - Anya? - points out); he agrees that the demon did kick his butt, gets a determined look on his face, gets the coat,  kills the demon and feels like his old self again.  Clearly, not wearing the coat was part of his souled persona, but when the warrior was needed, he wanted that extra edge. By the time he'd died a hero, come back and earned something of a place with Angel and Co., he had integrated his different selves enough that he could view the coat as an important part of his image, but not something that he needed (in it's original version) anymore in order to be strong.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Oct 21 2007 10:28 pm   #20Immortal Beloved

Crap :crap:  I forgot to point this out before: 

Buffy's harsh, although necessary, words get Spike riled up and thinking about what she said; but, he doesn't actually do anything about bringing back the badass until Buffy's actually in danger.  In GIT, he makes a half-hearted attempt at killing the exchanged demon, but it kicks his ass...through the ceiling.  His new soulful persona doesn't have what it takes to kill the demon.  He realizes this, dons his coat, and gets the job done.  And he's right, fighting is good for his soul.  He got the soul for Buffy, and when she needed it, he became a killer again--for her.  Everything he does, he does for her.  Bryan Adams ain't got shit on Spike :-)

Spike keeps vacillating between weak and warrior in Season 7.  It's part of why he goes crazy.  The coat, the clothes, all represent his attempt to find a happy medium.  He says it in "Beneath You" when he tells Buffy that his costume didn't work.  He can cut and dye his hair (No, Spike!  I LOVE crazy basement hair :-(  ).  He can put on the coat, he can take it off, but he has to integrate the inside.  By the time he dies in "Chosen," he's pretty much accomplished his task: He uses his soul to make a warrior's sacrifice to save the woman he loves.  God, I love him :happy:

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Oct 22 2007 12:33 am   #21Spikez_tart

Slayme - damn that basement hair was the best.  Apparently, the Buffster liked platinum better.  Dumb bitch. 

After Spike resumes wearing the coat and "feels like his old self again" he doesn't go crazy again, does he? (Angel later admits that he moped around for a hundred years, or something, while Spike spent three weeks in a basement and was fine.)

 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 22 2007 12:50 am   #22slaymesoftly

Yeah - I totally loved "crazy Spike basement" hair.  Could have happily looked at that all season. LOL (Although, I think it was IB who mentioned it?)

Nah, he doesn't go crazy. He just gets a grip on his soul and stops letting it keep him from being the fighter he needs to be.  Angel enjoys his brooding...what can I say? LOL  Spike, I think, had a more fatalistic attitude - there was nothing he could do to bring any of his victims back to life, so after he'd grieved over his behavior and their deaths, he was able to resume life.

And, we see Angel go off to save a submarine during WWW II, including turning a man to safe everyone else. I think he was living in an apartment when they found him, so I don't think he wallowed in those alleys eating rats the entire time....

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Oct 22 2007 10:02 am   #23Guest

Nope, Angel was solitary dude a lot, but not moping. He didn't do the rat thing until he'd taken human blood from the dying clerk in the 70s. That put him as homeless rat eater.

I'd forgotten about him walking by the lockers, etc. It still confuses me why all his boxes were at the school and *still* at the school. I wouldn't abandon my stuff on a Hellmouth! :D

CM

Oct 22 2007 03:37 pm   #24Enisy

Nah, he doesn't go crazy. He just gets a grip on his soul and stops letting it keep him from being the fighter he needs to be.  Angel enjoys his brooding...what can I say? LOL  Spike, I think, had a more fatalistic attitude - there was nothing he could do to bring any of his victims back to life, so after he'd grieved over his behavior and their deaths, he was able to resume life.

Joss actually commented on that transition...

Joss Whedon: Well, he's a different guy than Angel. Hopefully he's a different guy because otherwise Angel's going to be really boring. I think Spike was actually a lot closer to human. Angel was at full-tilt evil, that just got clothes lined by those Gypsies and spent 100 years going, "Ah yah aha hah," trying to figure it out -- what it was he had to do. Spike actually went in search for a soul while he had none, so I think he was much more evolved than Angel, personally. I think that's why it was easier for him to make the transition.

That's our boy. :heartfic:


Oct 22 2007 09:20 pm   #25daniel_nieves

I think all of you have brought up very valid points on why Spike's coat is so important to him. I pretty much agree with all that was said, but I wanted to add on something. I think that for Spike, it was a symbolism of the balance he was trying to find in himself and dealing with a soul. While Angel broods and stares at pictures of Lindsey, Spike was trying to become a new man for Buffy, while remembering his roots. The sentimental value of the coat was great for him as seen in TGIQ, it was taken off the body of the second Slayer, a huge accomplishment for him.

Spike felt bad for what he had done, but didn't really regret it or was sorry about it. He realized that killing was what he was supposed to do as a vampire, and now with his soul he felt bad, but didn't bother brooding like Angel. It's why he didn't take as long to recover from the initial ensouling as Angel did.

The duster meant alot to him, which was why when Wood took it in Lies My Parents Told Me, after he kicked his ass, he takes the coat back.  I could be wrong, but that's my opinion.

Spuffy peed on Angel...
Oct 22 2007 09:29 pm   #26Scarlet Ibis

No Daniel- you aren't wrong.  The duster is an important part of the Spike persona.  Taking it back in GiD was meshing the old with the new--a convergence of demon and soul.  He regrets the killing of innocents, but not his battles with the slayers. It was the nature of things, after all, as he explains to Robin.  Two warriors battling it out, well, the objective is for there to be a winner. More likely than not, the loser dies.  Such is life.

As Spike said, "I came, I conquered...I feel really bad about it." 

Not so much ;)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 23 2007 05:57 am   #27Blood Faerie

*sighs* I can't call Buffy bitchy since I agree with her, I liked him better before he got the soul and became a brooding poofter in s7 *shakes head* among the other things I hated about that s7... the only season I refuse to rewatch

Unfortunately, we had big vampires in the next room, and I didn't think they'd wait while we had hot monkey sex. ~Cerulean Sins :: (Anita to Jean-Claude)“Is there anything your bloodline does that doesn’t involve getting naked?" ~Danse Macabre :: I’m dating three men, living with two more, and having occasional sex with two others. That’s seven men. I’m like a pornographic Snow White. I think seven is plenty. ~Danse Macabre
Nov 21 2007 08:25 pm   #28LindsayH

I have found this to be a very interesting thread, and just wanted to add my two cents.  Anytime I can't justify the actions or words of a character after season 5, I look to the most plausible and enjoyable reason possible:  it's Marti Noxon's fault.  Hating Maudlin Noxious is the little black dress of my love for BtVS:  it goes with everything, and it fits almost every occasion.

So, we don't know what the heck happened to the crypt?  Yep, accuse the exec producer who was there all the time.  Although I do think Spike would not be able to live there after getting his soul because of the pain of the memories.

Evidently a leather coat can travel on its own power?  If it wasn't an artifact that had so much importance placed on it in the past, I'd say it wouldn't rate a mention, but it's Spike's coat--his shield, his trophy, the first thing we ever see of him along with his boots and the Desoto (which makes me question what happened to the car?  We don't see it after Crush, do we?)  That should have been hammered out in script development.  A little bit of exposition would have taken care of that, and we could have dropped the scene where Wood asks him where he got the coat.  Cause by then we already knew Wood hated Spike, for a good reason, saw the whole bleeding stake and First-talking Mama, so that little snippet wasn't necessary.  Not to lay blame at anyone's door, but the suspect is blonde and likes to take characters ooc and beat the ever living stuffing out of them.

Here endeth the rant.

"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Nov 21 2007 11:07 pm   #29Spikez_tart

Now now Lindsay - just remember that M Nox brought us all many hours of pleasure and if she screwed up once in a while - hell she's human. 

I don't think Buffy ever found out about where Spike got his original coat.  If she had she would probably have kicked Spike's ass and taken it away from him.  What the audience sees in Fool for Love - Spike killing Nikki Wood and taking her coat - is not what Spike is telling Buffy.

Spike does try to change clothes, but can't accomplish it.  I guess that's JW's way of saying that Spike's change isn't complete?

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?