BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

A Tale of Two Almost Rapes

Feb 16 2007 04:43 am   #1Immortal Beloved

 

So, I was watching "The Pack" the other day, and during the scene where Hyena Xander corners Buffy in the classroom, I had a moment of Hmmm...

While possessed by the spirit of the hyena, Xander approaches Buffy and tries to force her to be with him.  When Willow says to Buffy, "Oh, Buffy, the hyena in him didn't...," and Buffy says, "No," I think it's safe to assume that Xander tried to rape Buffy even though we don't actually see it on screen.  Later, Xander lies to Buffy and tells her that he doesn't remember anything that happened while he was Hyena Xander.  Giles is there, too, and agrees to keep Xander's secret: he tried to rape Buffy, and he does remember it. 

Fast forward 6 years or so to "Seeing Red."  Spike attempts to rape Buffy.  Xander finds Buffy after the attempted rape, he starts to go after Spike until Buffy stops him, he tells Dawn that Spike tried to rape Buffy, and he never lets an opportunity to bring up the attempted rape pass ever again.

The Hmmm...part: Why was Xander so adamant about bringing up Spike's attempted rape?  Was it because Xander felt guilty for his own attempted rape?  Was he trying to punish himself by punishing Spike?  Did Xander see a part of himself in Spike?  A part that he didn't like, a part that he tried to cover up?

What do y'all think?

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Feb 16 2007 05:02 am   #2ZoeGrace

Where were you on the night of December 11th? ;)

hehe, all the questions in quick succession made me feel like I was watching "Matlock" ;)


Feb 16 2007 05:19 am   #3Scarlet Ibis

Nah, I don't think Xander even thought about what his possesed self tried to do all those years ago- I think Xander harped on it because that was the one thing that he could pin on Spike in recent events that would peg him as "evil," (which it didn't, IMO), for if it hadn't happened, blaming Spike for sleeping with Anya just wouldn't sound as bad, and people wouldn't have sided with him as easily in the Spike=bad department as opposed to "oh, he's an attempted rapist- how much do you like Evil Undead Jr. now?"

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 16 2007 11:30 pm   #4Dead Man Walking

*agrees entirely with Scarlett Ibis.*

Mar 17 2007 06:15 am   #5GoldenBuffy

I agree with Scarlet, I think Xander only pounded away on that nail because Spike hadn't done anything really evil after his chip. So the rape was the only thing he could sink his teeth in. And if Giles wasn't the crack head watcher that he was he could have mentioned Xander's past as well. *sigh* Well we shall fix that now won't we? We are fanfic writers.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 17 2007 07:37 am   #6Scarlet Ibis

**Psst- you guys, it so wasn't attempted rape if you think about it...**  Yes, Xander's was an attempted rape (though he was possessed).  Buffy took that in stride though- she banged his head against a desk until he was unconscious, and was all like "Hey, no big."  But with Spike... I dunno.  She still didn't think it that big a deal- taking Dawn to be watched by him, and not having his invite revoked.  It was just blown way out of proportion, IMHO...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 17 2007 11:31 am   #7GoldenBuffy

Again I agree with you. Xander was the one who made a big deal about it. I mean didn't Buffy keep Spike's coat? Xander wanted to light the tourch and go burn down Spike's crypt with the pitch fork carrying mob behind him screaming "Monster." Once it was over Buffy was cool with it. Do you think she kinda understood how the bathroom scene happened? I think she did.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 17 2007 04:26 pm   #8Scarlet Ibis

Yea, but she still was a total bitch to him when he came back.  He's lost his mind in the school basement- "Oh, I'll get back to you," and when he showed up at her house, and Dawn too (what a bitch!). Bah.  And I think Xander may have destroyed Spike's crypt- I mean, it didn't get destroyed all on its lonesome... Somebody had to bulldoze it over, right?  Hmm, who had those tools?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 17 2007 04:38 pm   #9SpikeHot

Wasn't Spike's crypt destoryed by Riley in As You Were? I don't think I follow. I thought Buffy and Dawn's anger at Spike was justified in the beginning of the season. Buffy later was a big support to Spike and forgave him for the attempted rape. Xander also softened toward Spike.

I don't think souled Spike and Xander are risponsible for the attempted rape.

Mar 17 2007 04:45 pm   #10Scarlet Ibis

No, the lower half of his crypt was destroyed by Riley and Buffy in "As You Were."  Dawn, who annoys people till they tell them everything, never bothered to ask for Spike's side of the story.  Like Xander of all people was gonna give her an unbiased view.  Buffy too.  And it still, in my opinion, wasn't exactly attempted rape.  Spike unsouled was also "not guilty."

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 18 2007 07:28 am   #11GoldenBuffy

*nods* for me Spike didn't need a soul. That was just a cop out on the writers end because they put tso much weight in soul = good, no soul= bad. Spike was Spike no matter what. Dawn was just a bitch, period. I think all those months with Buffy without Spike rubbed off on her. I mean she was 17 she could have showed some maturity by then. If she was so close with him she could have at least asked for his side of the story. Some friend, right? Don't get me wrong, I love Xander. But he still was an ass, and its sad to say that only after Spike got the soul and went crazy did Xander finally give him a chance. Oh, plus the fact that Buffy wasn't having sex with him anymore. And I agree I think he did bulldoze the crypt.  And Buffy. I can understand her pain, but if she had gotten over it right after it happened why hold a grudge? PMS much?

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 18 2007 12:55 pm   #12SpikeHot

But unsouled Spike did try to rape her. She didn't just say no, she screamed it and was scared, but he kept on. It was until she kicked him away that he stopped. Spike was a big man for feeling guilty and trying to fix what happened. He thought Buffy wanted a soul and he went to get her one, he fought against his nature to get her one, not only that, the soul would help him more to be a better person. Not that I'm saying every soulled person is a saint, but having a soul makes it easier for a vampire to hold himself from doing evil.

We all remember that Spike had tried to feed on a woman when he thought his chip had stopped working.

As for Dawn, I think she should have listened to Spike's side on his relationship with Buffy. But she had the right to be upset with him over the attempted rape. That's her sister in the end.

I still don't see Xander blowing Spike's crypt, why would he do that? The most important thing to him is Spike being gone. Plus he had more issues in mind than Spike at the moment.

This is my opinion. I do think the Scoobies were hard on Spike in the beginning but later they all had softened toward him, except for Dawn and Anya.

Mar 18 2007 02:20 pm   #13Scarlet Ibis

Yes, from Buffy's POV, that's what occured.  But since we, the audience had been there from point one of their f-ed up relationship (which was mainly her doing), that had not been Spike's intention- he wasn't trying to hurt her or have power over her.  In fact, that was what Buffy had did to him for most of the duration of s6, so technically, one could say she raped him emotionally, and that Willow raped Tara's mind.  Those two people pissed me off more than Spike's bathroom scene. 

As for attacking that woman in the alley, he had to talk himself into it first, and had his chip not been working, I don't believe he would have killed her.  Spike didn't need a soul to know what was good or bad in the human world, cause if he did, he never would've helped Buffy in s2, saving the world or getting Drusilla back be damned.  Had that been Angelus, and he wanted Darla's affections back or whatever, yea, Buffy would've taken place from a hell dimension as opposed to Sunnydale after that.

And you're right, Dawn should chose her sister first.  But I still don't see it as black and white as he just plain old tried to rape her- just can't see it...

And if not Xander, who did it?  I'm not saying that he did, but it's never explained, and who would just destroy a crypt that happened to be Spike's?  The place wasn't trashed, but there was nothing left but rubble.  Who would take the time to do that?  Certainly not someone from the demon world- they couldn't even be bothered to dust Spike, let alone take apart a small building brick by brick.  I still think Xander had enough of a vendetta to do it- all his favorite girls either having a crush on him or having sex with him.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 18 2007 04:49 pm   #14Eowyn315

Okay, a few things...

First, I agree with everyone who's questioned the black and white of the attempted rape. What Spike did was clearly wrong, and Buffy's behavior leading up to it doesn't excuse him, but you're holding him to an unfair double standard if what *Buffy* did to *him* is considered acceptable but what he did to her is not. They were both pretty damn destructive to themselves and to each other, and I'm not very surprised that it ended the way it did, with the bathroom scene.

I also don't think it makes Spike "evil." I think it's a natural reaction to a bad situation from someone with less-than-stellar moral judgment. And I think it mitigates the situation that it wasn't about power - it was about desperation and love, even if poorly expressed, but he didn't intend to hurt her, and he didn't really intend to force her to do something she didn't want. He thought he could make her want it - and he was wrong, but he realized that eventually.

I think Buffy understood most of that - I think if she really thought Spike was evil and dangerous, she'd have treated him much harsher. She did have some things to work through - because no matter what they were thinking, it was still a traumatizing experience for her, and it does take some time to get over that. And I think she did recover - enough to trust him and believe in him in a way she never had before.

And as far as the comparison to Xander, I don't think you can really hold Xander responsible for something he did while he was possessed. However, I do think it was cowardly of him to not admit to remembering - and he should have apologized to Buffy. I also think it's hypocritical to harp on Spike's actions when he's done the same thing, regardless of influences.

I think Dawn's reaction to Spike in season 7 was completely justified, at least initially - as far as she knew, Spike tried to rape her sister. Granted, she doesn't know the whole story of their relationship, and she probably should have asked for it - but who was she going to ask? Buffy certainly wouldn't have talked about it, and Spike was gone. So she had several months with only Xander's version of events, to stew in anger and allow the love and trust she had for Spike to fade away in light of this new development.

Combine that with the sense of betrayal she was probably feeling because Spike hurt someone he loved and then abandoned them - two things he said he'd never do - and I can see Dawn being pretty damn upset. It's sad that once he came back, they never really worked things out, but I think that's more just neglect on the part of the writers because of everything else that's going on. I don't think they deliberately intended for her to still be mad at him the whole season.

And one question - what's the deal with Spike's crypt? Did I miss something? Am I not remembering something? The last time I remember seeing the crypt was when Buffy brought Dawn there and found Clem. It had been blown up by Riley, but not complete rubble like some of you are describing. Did we see it again after that, and I just don't remember? I assumed it was still there, and maybe Clem was still there, but Spike didn't go back because of the First drawing him to the Hellmouth, which was why he was camped out in the basement.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 18 2007 05:12 pm   #15Scarlet Ibis

Eowyn, very good points made.  I don't feel as if it's a double standard though because how Buffy treated Spike was intentionally meant to hurt him, while his actions in the bathroom were not. He probably thought he was hurting more than she was...  In your opinion, do you think Buffy only gave him some slack due to the soul, or would she have been as accepting if he hadn't gotten one?

Anyway, the whole crypt thing- you're right.  We never see it again after season six.  However, this, the fact that it was completely destroyed, was a detail given from a Buffy website that gave spoilers (can't remember the name or the address, but I remember my bff and I printing it out every week practically junior year in high school during s7), and explained things that was not knowledgable to the viewers (for instance, William's mom's name and their last name- Anne and Pratt).  It was stated that Spike's crypt was completely destroyed to a pile of rubble, and he couldn't go to Buffy's, and he was kinda crazy cause of the soul, but that's how he ended up in the basement on the Hellmouth.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 18 2007 05:47 pm   #16Spikez_tart

To clear up some earlier points and continue the rant.

1.  The Pack - Xander definitely tries to rape Buffy.  Here's her conversation with Willow as they are locking him up.

Buffy:  He tried his hand at felony sexual assault.
Willow:  Oh, Buffy, the hyena in him didn't...
Buffy:  No. (they arrange him on the floor of the cage) No, but it's
safe to say that in his animal state his idea of wooing doesn't involve
a Yanni CD and a bottle of Chianti.

Buffy doesn't sound all that upset.  Later, when Oz's wolfiness is revealed, Xander accidentally reveals that he does remember what he did when he was possessed by a hyena spirit.  Buffy calls him on it, but isn't all that upset then, either.

Xander:  I know what it's like to crave the taste of freshly killed
meat, to be taken over by those uncontrollable urges.
Buffy:  You said you didn't remember anything about that.

2.  Spike's crypt - the basement part (his bedroom) was destroyed by Buffy and Riley with hand grenades in "As You Were."  We see Spike in his crypt after the rape scene when Clem comes to visit.  In "Villians" (the episode following Seeing Red) Buffy takes Dawn to Spike's crypt; Clem is living there and Spike is gone, which Buffy didn't know.  We never see all of Spike's crypt destroyed, but it doesn't appear in Season 7.  Spike hangs out at the Hellmouth, then Buffy makes Xander take him in, finally he ends up in Buffy's basement. 

3.  Seeing Red - This episode appears to be a thorn in everybody's butt and rightly so IMHO.  Spike came to see Buffy to apologize and he does a pretty good job, then he gets into his head that if he can get her to have sex with him, they'll get back together, even if it's only in the crappy way that they are together.  He may be thinking that this time it will be better since all her friends know about their relationship and didn't put up half the fuss that Buffy was afraid they would.  Things get out of hand, Buffy is definitely screaming and struggling to get away.  He rips her clothes.  I hate it too, and I'm not sure Spike at that point would do anything remotely like that, but it's in the show. 

Buffy would surely be upset about that for a long time, even if she wasn't in any particular danger due to her super strength.  It was a terrible betrayal by Spike.  Terrible because she did trust him.

 

 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 18 2007 06:38 pm   #17Maggie2

The problem I have with the bathroom scene is that we are supposed to believe that Buffy ever would have gone into the weepy victim mode rather than just punch his lights out the minute it started.   That is obviously exactly what she did to Xander way back when.  Yeah, we're supposed to think she's too injured.  I don't buy this either since she eventually does kick him into the wall very, very hard.  But even if we say that the delay is because of the injury it seems to me that it's clear that Spike could not possibly have expected her to not kick him off if that's what she really meant.  So my read of the scene is that Spike expects a physical no, and is in such an emotional melt-down himself that he just doesn't register what she's saying until she communicates with him in the way that he would have expected.

This doesn't let Spike completely off the hook.  He was a willing participant in a very ugly relationship.  If he had loved Buffy in a good, healthy way, he would have put a stop to the relationship much earlier -- not only was it abusive to him, it was bad for her to be acting like that.  She was becoming a monster, and he had fallen for her exactly because she's not a monster.  And for me, Spike's complete failure to get this is because he doesn't have a soul.  I don't think the soul is necessary for a vampire to want to do good, and to stop being quite so evil.  But it does seem to serve as some sort of moral compass/ability to empathize with the human condition.  Spike himself says in B7 that the soul let him see that what Buffy was doing in B6 was not about secret feelings of love for him, but about self-punishment.  

The bathroom scene served to underscore how completely ugly and monstrous their relationship really was.  With Buffy in post-heaven freefall, and Spike without a soul, there was nothing to stop the downward spiral.  So I can go with the bathroom scene as a catalyst for the soul.  I just really hate that most people see it as Spike doing something that is equivalent to the huge amounts of abusive crap Buffy had been dumping on him all season.  To repeat a point I've made often: if they had shown a man acting the way Buffy did we would all hate him, full-stop, as a completely villainous abuser.  It's only because Buffy is a woman that we are willing to tolerate her behavior, and view Spike's unhealthy reactions to it as somehow equivalent.

I actually do think part of Xander's reaction is because of his hyena experience.  It's also an easy way of maintaining the "Spike is evil" meme.  Xander needs to believe he's better than someone -- and Spike is the natural candidate.  But it involves two lies -- first, that Xander himself is not also capable of vile behavior when freed from the soul; and second, a refusal to recognize that Spike is much less evil than he "should" be given that he has no soul.

Mar 18 2007 07:18 pm   #18Scarlet Ibis

Spike's actions were so overbearing, that it was hard to hear what it was he was saying.

Spike: You love me...Let it go. Let yourself love me. I know you felt it, when I was inside you... You'll feel it again, Buffy... I'm gonna make you feel it.

One could say it was a double entendre, however, I don't think this was the case- obviously, she would feel something of the physical sort during sex, but what Spike was referring to was the fact that she would feel for him, and the only way it was possible for Buffy specifically to feel that love for him, was through the act of having sex with him.

Buffy: I have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love. I could never trust you enough for it to be love.

That line aside, moments before the incident, there've been numerous occasions where she tells him how much she doesn't trust him, how he's bad, evil, a thing, etc.  So how could she feel betrayed, when she vocally said she didn't trust him?  I know, action wise, she's proven that to be false, but she did tell him that.

"Trust men and they will be true to you; treat them greatly, and they will show themselves great."  ~R.W. Emerson

This quote isn't always true, but pertaining to Spike specifically, it is.  If Buffy openly had that trust in him, it wouldn't have gone to the pisser the way it had.  Therefore, I feel that Spike's actions should be judged by the incidents leading up to it, in my humble opinion.

      Oh yea, and I agree with Maggie2

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 18 2007 09:19 pm   #19Eowyn315

Thanks, Scarlet, for clearing that up! As to your question, I think Buffy would have forgiven Spike even without the soul, but it might have taken longer. We only saw two episodes of what their relationship would be without the soul factor, but it seemed like she wasn't angry at him - she seemed surprised to see him in the basement, but she's not violent or harsh towards him, she readily accepts his help in Beneath You, and if he hadn't freaked out in the Bronze (which I think was a desperate attempt to distract attention from Anya noticing his soul) she probably would've tried to be friends with him again. The only time we see her react badly at all is the purely physical flinch when he hands her the flashlight - which seemed like an involuntary post-traumatic thing more than anything else, that would've gone away in time.

I think the soul certainly made things easier. It was an easy excuse for her to say "He's a different person now" - but really, the reason she should forgive him and trust him is not because he has a soul, but because he chose to get it. That more than anything tells her that he knew he was wrong, and he did his best to fix it and ensure it would never happen again.

Maggie - this is just my interpretation, but I think the reason Buffy doesn't fight Spike off right away is because she *does* trust him (despite what she says) and she honestly believes he'll stop when she says so. But what she doesn't realize is that he's too far gone to see that no means no, instead of all the times when she said no but meant yes. He's too lost in his own desperation to notice hers, so it's not until she physically stops him that he gets it. 

I also agree with you that Spike probably expected her to fight back if she really didn't want it, so the fact that she didn't fight right away made him think it was okay. I imagine that they've had consensual sex that was rougher than what we saw in the bathroom scene, so the problem isn't really the violence, it's the lack of communication. Spike doesn't understand what Buffy's feeling, and Buffy's not giving him the signals he expects, and Buffy's expecting Spike to behave a certain way, not realizing that he's completely lost control of himself.

I just really hate that most people see it as Spike doing something that is equivalent to the huge amounts of abusive crap Buffy had been dumping on him all season.

I don't think it's equivalent - but I think they're both equally at fault for everything that happens. I think one action is a direct result of the other - Buffy's treatment produces Spike's behavior. But either one of them could've put a stop to things, and didn't. And Buffy's breaking up with Spike wasn't really putting a stop to things, because by that time, it was too late.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 18 2007 09:51 pm   #20Guest

Eowyn,

I agree that they are both at fault in the sense that either of them could have and should have put a stop to things before they got so very out of hand.  But Buffy's got the soul and Spike doesn't -- and if the soul is supposed to mean anything, it should mean that the moral burden of all that badness lies more on her side.  And once he saw (in the bathroom) how bad things were, he did do everything in his power to fix it (i.e. he got the danged soul).  It's not clear she was ever going to do anything to meaningfully put things back to rights.  The break-up was a step in the right direction.  But Normal Again makes it pretty clear that she's still in massive denial about a lot of things.

About the rape: I'd like to read her delay as being due to her inherent trust in him.  But that doesn't match up with the desperate weepy thing she had going.  I can't make any sense of that *at all* save bad writing.  Buffy just doesn't do victim.  Even during the cruciamentum when she really lost all her powers she wasn't about to start crying and begging.  So I have to think that the writers wanted us to see her as the aggrieved party in the ugly relationship that was Spuffy in B6, and I just think they are way off the mark on that.

Also, one thing that really disturbed me was the last thing that she said to Spike in the bathroom -- that she should have stopped him "a long time ago".  I wonder if there wasn't a moment when she was happy he had lost control -- because that justifies her whole worldview that he's inherently evil and cannot change.  I think she does feel that, for just a moment.  But then she realizes how much else she loses (Spike's the one she counts on most) and probably her role in pushing him to the edge -- and that accounts for her subsequent reaction -- which is not the self-righteous bitchiness she could have fallen into.  She does take Dawn to Spike for protection after the bathroom scene, and as you note, she's wary but not hostile when she sees him again at the beginning of B7.  So the bathroom scene ends up being cathartic -- and it sets up the real development of trust between them in B7.

Mar 18 2007 09:54 pm   #21Maggie2

That last post was from me. 

Mar 18 2007 10:15 pm   #22Scarlet Ibis

"He was a willing participant in a very ugly relationship.  If he had loved Buffy in a good, healthy way, he would have put a stop to the relationship much earlier -- not only was it abusive to him, it was bad for her to be acting like that." 

I think that he did love Buffy in a good, healthy way, but was trying to make the best of a very bad situation- Buffy had it evolve into ugliness.  However, I'd just like to point out that though willing, Spike was the initial victim in the relationship.  But that being said, I'm still angry at him for just taking it all those months.  But then again, it was to be expected of him, being love's bitch and all.  He accepted Drusilla's infidelities, and accepted Buffy's abuse because he was in love with both of them.  Spike had such a need and desire to be loved and accepted in any shape or form that he was willing to settle and take it anyway he could, which is really, really sad...  Not sad as in pathetic, but just plain depressing.

Also, DoS just made me consider (from her last comment in the thread "Moments that Made You Cry) the parallels between Buffy and Willow and s6- the destructive paths they took, hurting and abusing the ones they love, their respective addictions (Willow's crack magic and Buffy's addiction to pain- either giving it or taking it), and both believing themselves to be superior to others.  Just wanted to mention that...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 18 2007 11:46 pm   #23Maggie2

 " I think that he did love Buffy in a good, healthy way, but was trying to make the best of a very bad situation."

He didn't love her enough to see that the way she was treating him was killing her.  But I admit that I go back and forth on this.  If he had just walked, he would have been abandonning her, and that might have been even worse.  And on that view, he was trying to make the best of a very bad situation. 

About Buffy and Willow believing themselves to be superior to others.  I think this is *the* big problem with the Scoobies.  They have been fighting evil for years, and this made them blind to the fact that they had their own internal demons to deal with.  Xander suffers from this too.  And their respective significant others all take it on the chin in B6 as a direct result.  Not sure they did enough in B7 to redeem the Scoobies from this rather glaring ugliness. 

Mar 19 2007 12:12 am   #24GoldenBuffy

I look at it from this view point. Let's just say Spiek did know that their time together was killing Buffy. But he loved her, he needed her, he couldn't imagine his wrold without her. He was the one being abused. The abused know what is right and what is wrong, but mentally they can not leave. They are trapped because they want to make the badness work. Buffy too, knew it was bad, that it was killing her. But she was addicted to it. Needed it, she took from Spike with out question. She didn't care what he really needed, all she knew was that he loved her and would do anything she wanted. She could beat him to a pulp and he would still be there. And as I said in a older post in another thread, both are guilty but Buffy played the biggest roll. And Spike was the victim.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 19 2007 12:21 am   #25Eowyn315

Maggie - you do bring up a good point about Buffy holding more responsibility because she has the soul. I guess I just don't place as much faith in the soul as the show would like me to. The very points that you mentioned - that Buffy, with a soul, showed no sign of making amends for what she did, while Spike without a soul sought one in order to make things right - seems to indicate that the soul isn't really the end-all be-all of moral compasses. And we've seen plenty of other indications of that, with souled people (humans, as well as Angel in A2) doing bad things, and Spike being selfless and choosing to be good (especially after Buffy died).

So I'm not sure you can say that Buffy ought to hold the moral burden, since I think Spike was capable of making the decision that their relationship was unhealthy - I think he didn't put a stop to it because he was starved for any sign of affection from her, and because he was deluding himself that it would lead to more (that she would love him), and possibly because he thought he was helping her.

I'm with you on the bad writing for the bathroom scene. I think they *were* trying to paint Spike as the villain and Buffy as the victim (they and JM have said as much in interviews), and they ended up writing Buffy way out of character, because she is *not* a victim. The only way I can really justify it - and this is fanwanking, I suppose, but it's just my read of the scene - is that the only time we've really seen Buffy vulnerable is in her relationships. She's very fragile in that area, she's been hurt and had her trust broken so many times that it's possible to see her as an emotional victim, coming to trust Spike somewhat against her will (since she keeps denying it, but we see in her actions that she does) and then having him violate her trust by not stopping when she says no.

The point you made about Buffy being glad he lost control was really interesting. I think she *is* relieved - because when she says "I should have stopped you a long time ago" what she means is she should have stopped herself. Because, really, what was he doing that she wasn't initiating and encouraging? His actions give her a reason to put a stop to it, when she couldn't really convince herself.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 19 2007 01:28 am   #26Maggie2

Hey Eowyn -- I agree that a soul, by itself, is not enough to make someone good.  This is obvious.  Warren is about as evil as anyone we saw on the show, and he surely had a soul.  OTOH, I think souls help.  Trying to be good without a soul is like trying to take a cross-country trip without a map.  You might get where you're going, but you're more likely to get lost.  So Buffy had the map, and she still got lost.  That weighs more heavily against her than Spike's getting lost without the map.  I think Joss has said that this is pretty much his view of the soul.  It's true that the characters often cling to much simpler views of the matter -- but I think that Joss means to critique them for doing so. 

I'll have to watch the bathroom scene at some point to see how quickly she goes into victim mode.  I agree that we could read her (generously) as finding out in the most awful way that she really had trusted Spike up to this point, and having that call up the wounded little girl in her.  Do you recall her ever reacting that way when betrayed by the other men in her life?  The closest I can think of is her morning-after with Angelus... maybe the only thing keeping her from weeping and begging was her shock and denial about what was going on.  Still, I've always thought that Buffy shut down emotionally after the whole Angelus thing, so I have a hard time seeing her being emotionally open enough to anyone to provoke the kind of response you are describing here.  Interesting to think about, though!

Mar 19 2007 01:46 am   #27Eowyn315

Hmm... now you've got me wanting to watch the episode again, too. In terms of the emotionally vulnerable thing, I was thinking of the morning after with Angelus, where she didn't cry but I'm sure she wanted to (and I think she does cry later, doesn't she?). But I was also thinking of her desperate attempts to keep Parker's interest, and running after Riley after Xander's little speech. She is angry and emotionally shut down during their fight, but then it seems like if she could've caught the helicopter, she'd have been begging him to stay.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 19 2007 04:14 am   #28Scarlet Ibis

Okay, with all this talk of Buffy getting lost with her soul, as do a few of the other characters, and Spike almost getting there, and then actually achieving it with getting his soul back, doesn't that make him better than them at the end of the day?

Also, you guys keep bringing up her "trust" in him in that bathroom scene, when in the scene itself, she says she in fact *didn't* trust him.  And why is it that of all of the men in her life who literally walked out on her, she chases them, but the one who stands by her side, who kept his promise to her when she was six feet under for five months, and he assumed forever, why is she pushing him away, hating him? He was the only one willing to stand by her crazy ass after everything.  So basically, yea, I see Buffy as still being inherently worse and stupid too.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 19 2007 05:44 am   #29GoldenBuffy

I agree with Scarlet alot, I can't help it. So, I'm nodding my head in agreement with you once more. I do think she trusted him to a point, beacuse it has started in S5, but she wouldn't admit it. I also think since he never tried to really hurt her after finding out that the chip didn't work on her it never crossed Buffy's mind that Spike would or could be pushed to do something to desprate like that. I agree after the whole Angelus incident she shut down put walls around her heart. And I think her chasing after those who left her justified her atempt at keeping them or trying to make it work. But I could be wrong. And if she truly took that step and opened up to Spike, letting him in. He in turn would end up leaving her as well. In a way he did on the Hellmouth. And I think it will take time for her to forgive him after coming back for not contacting her. Which would prove her point that all the men she ever loved left her.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 19 2007 10:46 am   #30Guest

I think that in the B/S disaster relationship the soul issue really does count, not because the soul makes you good or evil cause I don't think that's right.  It counts because Buffy thinks it does, she's learnt from the Angel/Angelus thing that it must count cause if it doesn't then her first love wasn't as great as she thought.  So the soul issue is important but not in whether or not Spike has one but in whether or not Buffy does.

When Buffy first sleeps with Spike he has just shown her that he can hurt her even though the chip still works.  They both assume that it means Buffy isn't human and must be a demon.  I think this revelation was actually a relief for Buffy, if she's a demon then maybe she doesn't have a soul anymore.  Maybe that's why she feels dead inside, why she's so apathetic now.  Spike handed her with a very neat excuse to not be the perfect little slayer anymore and she took it and ran with it.

In Buffy's mind Spike had nothing to do with the relationship, she was punishing herself, I think she wanted Spike to kill her at first was trying to get him to with out actually asking him.  That he didn't even try to kill her eventually made her grow a begrudging respect for him (once she got past the suicidal thing) and start to trust him more and more.

Spike on the other hand was just trying to help, only he helped the only way he knew how.  He helped Buffy like he would have helped Dru, a 100 year habit has got to be hard to crack after all.  That was his mistake so the way I see it...

Spike has to own the attempted rape, no means no and no one can argue with that.  He would have been confused after the relationship but its not an excuse.

Buffy's really responsible for the disaster relationship, it takes two, but she's the one that wouldn't let it become anything healthy because she wanted to punish herself.

Saying who is more guilty out of the two overall though is really impossible and irrelivent.  By the end of season seven they'd forgiven each other

As for Xander's attempted rape (cause I noticed this whole thing kind got off topic and focussed on the B/S stuff... hmm, wonder why?)  I think Xander felt he wasn't responsible at all, only the Hyena and that by season 6 he'd proven his loyalty to Buffy (Saving her life in Prophecy Girl and not taking advantage of her in BB&B).  So Xander still felt that the two instances were completely different.  Another excuse to hate Spike wouldn't have hurt him but I really think Xander didn't see his Hyena possession as the same as Spike being a vampire, Xander hates all vamps because of Jesse remember?  (Or by then the writers had forgotten about Hyena Xander's attack.)

Mar 19 2007 03:20 pm   #31Scarlet Ibis

Um... I don't see why Buffy would think that Spike would kill her when he just saved her life like two weeks or less before- he could have let her dance herself to a hell dimension, cause the Scoobies sure were *not* gonna stop her from doing it.

As for Xander hating all vamps because of Jesse- I don't think that's true.  I just saw the end of "The Harvest" yesterday, and he and Willow didn't even focus all that much on the fact that their best friend since preschool was dead and wasn't coming back.  They just went to school and was all "la la la, let's help Buffy and Giles save the world some."  There was no mourning for the boy.  I think Xander's resentment actually stems from Angel hatred.

As for who's ultimately to blame the most for the crappy and dark Spuffy relationship at the end of s6 besides the writer's who were secretly sniffing crack before writing, was Buffy.  Her actions determined his- Spike could have epitomized a perfect boyfriend for her had she given him that chance and stopped with the petty b.s. and worrying about what her friends would think.  And protecting Dawn from Spike?  What the hell does that even mean?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 19 2007 03:37 pm   #32Maggie2

Hey Scarlet,

I do think that Spike is "better than Buffy" at the end of the day.  She was much worse than him in B6 and she had a soul, so that just compounds her failure.  And even in B7 she's still emotionally stunted and not capable of taking full responsibility for her actions -- in stark contrast to Spike. 

Additionally, she just never fulfills her destiny, as given to her in Intervention by the First Slayer.  She was to open herself to the huge love inside her by being willing to risk the pain.  But from that point on, Buffy just starts shutting down precisely because she is no longer to risk the pain -- and she's only barely opening up to that in B7.  Spike is the one who does this and that's why Spike gets the moment of shining effulgence in The Chosen.  He and his very hard-won soul save the world.   Buffy and the slayerettes have almost nothing to do with it.  So, from the end of B5 on, I really think Spike is the hero -- and Buffy, at best, is drafting along in his wake. 

To the guest:  "no means no" -- sure, kind of.  In fact lots of no's don't mean no.  This one did.  But I'm not sure how Spike was supposed to hear it, given their past, and given his highly reasonable expectation that if he crossed a line with Buffy she'd pound him into the pavement.  She always uses violence with him to express her wishes -- so I can't be too hard on the guy for not responding to a verbal no that wasn't accompanied by her fists.  It was a failure on his part -- but I really resist dumping it into the standard category of 'attempted rape'.  I mean, 'attempted' implies he thought he would succeed -- and there's no way Spike thought he could force Buffy to have sex against her will by using force.  It can't possibly have crossed his mind that way -- he knows she's stronger than him.  And when she does respond with force he immediately gets the 'no' and stops.  So trite phrases like "no means no" really don't help us understand what really happened in that bathroom.  IMHO.

Mar 19 2007 08:17 pm   #33GoldenBuffy

*nods* I have an explanation for the bathroom. In some way wacky Hellmouth burp we got sent to an alternate deminsion, where that verse's Buffy and Spike were having a huge argument that got way out of control. Hence, the OOC for them both. Or the truth, the writers not only sniffed some white powder they followed the rabbit down the hole, danced all over Wonderland then went to find the Wizard of Oz. Nuff said.

If you you're going to hold the "no means no" over Spike's head then you have to hold Buffy in account too. Didn't Spike tell her no and she went ahead and had sex with him anyway. Just because one's body responds doesn't mean they want it. What about when they first had sex. Did she ask him if they could? Did she as him if he wanted it? No, she just went ahead and took what she wanted. So again, I say the majority of the hell that was Spuffy was Buffy's fault.

And I agree Spike was the hero of the show, Buffy and the others just rode along for the ride taking all the credit and belittling him, cause they were jealous. Plus I think it was hard for them all to accept that fact that a soulless evil creature could be better and more willing to help the human race then they could.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 19 2007 11:58 pm   #34Scarlet Ibis

Maggie and GB- you guys= awesomeness.

You know in "Intervention," and the First Slayer apparition tells Buffy that "death is your gift, when I first saw that, I swear I thought that was in relation to Spike somehow.  That whole ep revolves around love, and Buffy's worried she doesn't have enough (she really didn't), and I was thinking that Spike tied into that because he truly did love her, and that could somehow show her to be open more, because if she let herself love a soulless being, then that would be like this ultimate risk, but worth it in the end because her love would be returned- her gift.  I went "bah" when she thought she had to die for Dawn, and that dying was her gift.  What kind of crazy gift is that?  Could've been avoided, that's all I got to say bout that...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 12:19 am   #35Eowyn315

I smell a plot bunny! *pokes Scarlet* I thought about going there when I wrote my post-Intervention fic, but it wasn't really what the story was about, so I didn't do much with the First Slayer's message. Still think it's a cool idea though, if someone were to write about it. *pokes Scarlet again*

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 20 2007 12:21 am   #36Scarlet Ibis

Hmm... you know Eowyn, I just began an alternate s5 fic, and I could definitely use that (sense I didn't know where the hell I was going with it).  Thanks for pointing what I pointed out, but Muse was too tired to see it :D

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 12:23 am   #37Eowyn315

Anytime! Sometimes I moonlight as a muse. ;)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 20 2007 12:34 am   #38Maggie2

Hey Scarlet -- I totally agree that what the First Slayer says about Buffy fits Spike much better.  And I'd love to see a fic that did something with that!  This is me sitting back and waiting hopefully...

Mar 20 2007 12:37 am   #39Scarlet Ibis

Oh gosh- peer pressure!  The walls are closing in, and I'm all claustrophobic... Okay, I'm on Spring break, and I'll see what happens.  I have two s5 fics going (one that isn't posted), but I'm not sure which one to use it in.  The one that's on here is going off canon once I go through s5 backwards... and the other one is kinda dark- Like tortured Spike style.  Where should it go?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 06:41 am   #40GoldenBuffy

I'm all for a little bit of torture Buffy once your done with Spike. All in the samw fic, lol.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 20 2007 02:20 pm   #41SpikeHot

 I think Xander's resentment actually stems from Angel hatred.

I think it starts from Jesse, looking at how upset Xander was when he saw that Jesse was turned and then we had the first "I don't like vampires" quote, but his hatred grew with Angel, Buffy choosing a vampire over him, Angel losing his soul, Angel drinking off Buffy to save his own ass, quoted by Xander.

The other day I in some message board I found a long discussion about Spike's 'rape' of Buffy. I wanted to politely point out that he didn't actually rape her, then I discovered that they weren't talking about Seeing Red, they were talking about Dead Things, the balcony scene to be exact. How was that considered a rape, I know Spike was a jerk in that scene to a very depressed Buffy, but she didn't seem to reject the sex.

Mar 20 2007 03:04 pm   #42Scarlet Ibis

Spikehot- OMG, whoever said that is insane!  He did not *rape* Buffy ever.  And if that had been a rape in "Dead Things," a fully alert, uninjured Buffy, then why the hell not rape her again in "Seeing Red?"  Buffy didn't want him to stop.  She has Spike and vamp tinglies- she knew he was there, or she knew that he would come.  Come on, does she always leave her friends to go stand on the balcony *alone*?  What ep was before that- "Dobulemeat Palace?"  Spike always just shows up, and when she saw him in that ep the second time, she rushes out back to meet him.  You must share this thread with the rest of us... 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 20 2007 07:28 pm   #43GoldenBuffy

I don't know if I want to read that thread. I don't want high blood pressure. And I know if I read that I will get it.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 26 2007 03:08 pm   #44Guest

Hi...  This my first post, so plz bear with me.

I've been thinking about the way Xander was written and I realized something.  I don't remember him every taking responsibility.  

I know there are more, but here are a few examples I could think up quickly:

Xander and the hyena.

Getting Amy to do a _love_ spell.

Lying to Buffy about what Willow said as she goes off to face Angelus.

Summoning "Sweet" and the accompany deaths, along with Buffy's almost self-immolation.

Leaving Anya at the altar.

Attacking Anya about sleeping with Spike. As if he had a right too. (Not to mention take an axe to _off_ Spike.)

And finally, this one is a bit quazi  - helping to pull Buffy from HeaVEN. 

Are there more I'm missing?


Side note: Personally, I think the Scoobies have always had a Get-out-of-jail-free card.  I mean hell, they didn't give Anya any of the crap they gave Spike when she reverted back to being a (souless) Demon. (A choice she made willing.) 

Look how they treated her after she took out the college boys.  I didn't hear anyone calling her a soul challenged evil thing.  Yea, Buffy ran her through with a sword.  Big fricken deal.  

Oh, I know, ""It's complicated!!"  Thanks _B_ for clearing that up for us.   Wow, am I bitter or what.  Thank the Powers that Be, for all you talented writers that keep the "real" Buffy and especially Spike alive and well in my computer.

Cheers!

Shoot!  I thought I was done, but I have a couple more comments:

If I remember correctly Dawn when to Spike, an berated his actions with Anya and told him, "You really hurt Buffy."  

And the way it's played out... It's like Spike cheated on her with Anya.  She kicked Spike to the curb, but I guess even if she didn't want him no one could have him.  (Remember the jealousy with Faith in the basement and the I'm not ready for you to be gone song or the date from the wedding that wasn't.)

Then a "Drunk" evil demon goes to Buffy to apologize (why I have no clue) and can B accept his apology and send him on his way. No she has to demean him again. 

Oh, I'm sorry the dear girl is hurt.  Whatever!  I mean doesn't she remember what she said to Spike when he took a beating from Glory...  She would remember it.  Yeah right.   All the writers had to do was let her acknowledge his pain, but noooo.

Instead, we endured a season of Buffy being more demon then him (want, take, have) Abusing her power, keeping Spike her dirty little secret.  Never once throwing him a crumb and this one time when it doesn't register in Spike's poor misused brain that she might actually mean NO! We get a desperate attempt at unseating our hero.  It makes me want to break the those so-called writers into itty bitty pieces.   

Like Spikey says, "Can't be a man and can't be a proper demon!"  Whats a manpire to do?  

::Geezuz, this is better then paying for therapy:: Sorry, for the ranty part.  I now return you too your regularly scheduled program. 







Mar 30 2007 01:10 pm   #45jess2357

Hmm, back to the comments about Buffy's response in the bathroom scene. I always felt it made perfect sense. If she had been angry and wanting him to stop in that kind of way, then sure, she'd have punched him straight away. Instead, it's more like she suddenly realises what she's done to him - she's pushed him until he is willing to hurt her. She may or may not have trusted him in general, but she always thought he'd love her, and thus not hurt her. In this scene, she's pushed him too far, and I think her delay in pushing him away is due to her hoping he'd stop himself.

To me, it seems as though she's less upset about what he tried to do per se, and more upset about the fact that once again she's driven a guy into hurting her.

Mar 30 2007 05:59 pm   #46SpikeHot

Guest, don't you remember Xander running to Giles admitting that he made a mistake by blackmailing Amy to do a love spell and had called himself twice an idiot for doing that spell? Don't you remember Xander apologizing to Anya many times, telling Buffy and Willow that he made a mistake by leaving her, asking Anya to make it right?

He took responsibility for his actions sometimes and sometimes he didn't. I don't remember him getting a free pass after cheating on Cordelia and leaving Anya at the altar. Buffy didn't quite take a free pass when she makes mistakes like in Empty Places and Dead Man's Party. Willow didn't take a free pass when she made the accident with Dawn.

The difference between Buffy, Xander and Willow forgiving each other and being hesitant about Spike is that Buffy, Xander and Willow are friends, friends love and forgive each other. As upsetting as it sounds, they're not Spike's friends, and in real life, it's easier to forgive your friend than a stranger or someone you HATE.

Besides Tara and Anya got A LOT of free passes because they're Willow and Xander's girlfriends. Yet there was a time when Tara and Anya didn't give Willow and Xander free passes when they made mistakes. Tara left Willow and Anya rejected Xander's request to get back together.

Mar 30 2007 09:39 pm   #47pfeifferpack

About "The Pack".....I expected Xander's reaction at the end but what really angered me was the "wink wink nod nod" reaction from GILES to Xander lying about his memory.  Giles was supposed to be Buffy's father figure and he was all good ole boy with the Xan man about keeping the secret of Xander knowing what he had done.  It made me hate Giles for quite a while.


I always yell at Xander on the screen when he goes on about Spike and the "rape" or "Rape attempt".  This is a subject that I have personal reason to be sensitive about and his "forgetting" that HE tried it and had to be hit with a desk and caged to stop him whereas Spike, when shoved off, stopped in horror of his own actions!  Buffy never mentioned what she had to do to stop Xander and that angered me too.


Okay.....too much emotional happening so I'll stop here.  Point is Spike was a vampire with no soul...the thing that was surprising was that HE STOPPED....it was what he DIDN'T do that was important as usual and it was never credited to him.


Anya must have killed more than the entire fanged four in her 1100 years as a vengeance demon and she never regretted any until the frat boys in S7.  No one ever held her accountable.  Xander never reckoning for those who died with the dancing demon (no one even remarked that Xander's careless calling of the demon had resulted in DEATHS).  Even Buffy had consequences really but Xander and Anya were not really held accountable for their forays into the dark.


Kathleen

Mar 31 2007 12:03 am   #48Scarlet Ibis

I think the two most forgiving "free pass" people towards Spike would be Willow and Joyce- hands down.

And Anya was way worse then Spike- she chose to become a demon twice, and if she never lost her soul becoming a demon, then she killed or helped to kill all those people the entire 1120 years she served D'Hoffyrn.  Also, weren't Anya and Hallie responsible for a revolution or something?  They said something like that in "Help..." in one of the flashbacks.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 31 2007 01:19 am   #49pfeifferpack

Yup they helped start the Russian revolution and THAT led to much badness and death not just in Russia (Just check out Stalin's death count for one!).


Once I did a calculation for Spike if he killed one person a day for 127 years and the total was: 46,355 (127 years x 365 days a year).  If he was extra hungry and ate 5 a day it would be 231,775
.  Now that's a lot until you hold it up to Anya's likely count and let's not forget that Willow nearly destroyed the entire world complete with every man, woman and child (and puppy and bunny too)...that's in the billions!  Not to discount life but I think Anya has 'em beat and Willow would have been champ if Xander hadn't pulled out the yellow crayon!


Kathleen

Mar 31 2007 06:46 am   #50Guest

One thing that stands out to me about Xander not taking responsibility for is the singing demon. I remember him practically begging Giles to tell him that the music and the person catching on fire had nothing to do with each other. So he at least suspected that the demon he summoned was causing deaths yet he said nothing even after Dawn was kidnapped. Everyone guessed it was him because of what Sweet said.

The Scoobies saved the world but on a personal level they could royally suck.

Mar 31 2007 06:47 am   #51Guest

I forgot to say ladycat713 so different from previous guest.

Mar 31 2007 02:57 pm   #52SpikeHot

I guess the reason Anya was easily accepted is that the scoobies never saw her in action before, the only one who got close to Anya in her most badness is Willow when Anya wanted to get her necklece back, that probably explains Willow's resentment of Anya. Xander and Buffy never saw Anyanka until they became attached to Anya.

However, the Scoobies saw Spike in his evil days, got hurt because of him, tried to stop him from killing Buffy, first impressions usually stick and are hardly to change.

The Scoobies knew Willow as the sweet friend of them, so it was hard to see her get killed. She's their best friend.

I guess it's deeper than just Anya killed more people than Spike. The Scoobies first met Spike as a murder who wanted to kill them, it's hard to change that thought so easily. The Scoobies met Anya as a 17 year old student who used to be evil, just like Giles, so it's easier to look past her evil past, moreover, she was rarely taken seriously.

pfeifferpack, I don't think Giles knew what Hyana Xander had done. He knew Xander got mean, but didn't know anything about what he did. Only Willow knew about the Xander AR, also the fact that Buffy wasn't heartbroken by it helped Xander forget about it. He did immature 16 year old thing by lying about remembering so he won't deal, even though everything that Hyana Xander did isn't Xander's fault to begin with.

I agree with Scarlet about Willow and Joyce being very forgiving of Spike. Willow because of her sweet nature, and Joyce because she didn't really meet evil Spike in person.

Mar 31 2007 06:17 pm   #53Scarlet Ibis

Oh SpikeHot, I meant I thought it was kinda ironic that Willow and Joyce were the most forgiving of Spike because Joyce saw Spike trying to kill her daughter, and Spike threatened to kill Willow two times, but they were two kindess people to him- Joyce letting him spend quality time with her, and Willow trying to stop Spike from committing suicide. Although, as much as Xander spoke against Spike, he did rescue him in s4 in the same "suicide attempt" ep (I can't remember the name, damn it!).

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 31 2007 08:03 pm   #54SpikeHot

I guess the scene in Becoming II in which Buffy reintroduced Spike as a friend made Joyce feel comfortable around him. I do remember though that Joyce wasn't thrilled about Spike having romantic feelings for Buffy in Crush. Poor Spike.  

Willow is always sweet natured and very open minded so it's not a surprise she'll be sympathetic toward Spike.

I think Xander put his life in danger to save Spike in Doomed, didn't a piece of wood fall on top of Spike while the building was falling down? Xander could've left with Willow but he returned to save Spike. Looking back at season four, I think Xander wasn't too hostile with Spike until Spike betrayed them with Adam. I could be wrong though.   

Mar 31 2007 10:44 pm   #55Scarlet Ibis

You know, after s4, there isn't much Xander and Spike interaction until after Xander finds out Spike's feelings about Buffy and the whole being chained up thing.  But, then he flip flops and defends Spike's sex bot, and says they should give it back to him.  And then flip flops again when Spike nixks the trailer, and stays on the "Spike bad" bandwagon when they ressurect Buffy, chalking up his love and devotion for the Slayer to mere stalking, just to defend Spike to Anya and Dawn when the First took control of his mind, and not throw in Spike's face the *alleged* AR when Spike accused him and the rest of the Scoobies of betraying Buffy when they kicked her out of her own home.  The fact that he didn't bring it up, surprised me quite frankly. In conclusion, Xander is capable of not being all vindictive half the time (about).

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 01 2007 01:54 pm   #56SpikeHot

Xander's feelings toward Spike are very complicated and can't be summed up with "Xander hates vampires". I don't even think the reason he dislikes him had anything to do with Spuffy because he disliked him before Spuffy happened.  

But I can say that things are different in season seven. Xander had matured a lot. I won't lie that I used to hate him, and Spuffy fics were part of the reason, but when watching season seven again, I came to love him greatly and try to understand him more. His attitude toward Spike started to change gradually into the better. I can't think of one insult he threw Spike's way after Him, perhaps living with a soulled Spike had changed his mind about Spike.

Apr 01 2007 08:27 pm   #57Scarlet Ibis

I totally agree with you there, SpikeHot.  The fact that he let him live with him again to begin with says alot- if you really hated someone, it wouldn't matter how much your best friend begged you to do something for them- soul or not, vampire or not.  Or maybe, Xander just has a big heart.  Or both.  I really don't hate Xander- he just irks me sometimes.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 01 2007 10:08 pm   #58SpikeHot

Me too. He annoys me a lot sometimes but I don't think he's evil or have an evil side in him. Most of the mistakes he did show how disturbing his upbringing was I guess.

One thing I noticed about Xander from rewatching is that he's very forgiving when someone hurts him yet not so forgiving, if at all, when someone hurts his friends.

Apr 01 2007 10:34 pm   #59Scarlet Ibis

Yeah- his childhood was pretty crappy, and he pretty much thrives on loyalty and bonds of friendship.  I don't think that he likes change very much, cause that usually leads to badness or downward spirals, so it makes him hesitate with self doubt.  But because of his big heart,  and usually kind disposition, I do like him.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel