BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

As You Were- an even further look...

Jul 14 2007 06:14 am   #1Scarlet Ibis

Okay, the other thread was already long enough, and there's been talk of starting another separate thread dedicated to "As You Were," and since I didn't see one, I figured I'd start it, and respond to comments already made.  Here is my response.

2. The LBJ/Nixon reference. That could be about Riley and Spike. But the relationship described (one getting tossed out for the other) has already happened. Nothing about that is relevant to the plot, except that Buffy’s ex-boyfriend happens to be in the episode, so I don’t think it’s really a clue that Riley has an ulterior motive. Also, considering Joss’ penchant for inserting bizarre foreshadowing regarding things that won’t happen until two seasons later, I wouldn’t put it past them to be referring to Buffy getting voted out of her own house in favor of Faith in season 7. (Okay, I’m mostly kidding about that one.)

 

Just because Riley is currently taken, he' still in love with Buffy. And though he can't step in, being married and all, it still doesn't change the fact that Spike is *officially* out. Although, it could consequently be foreshadowing as well.

3. How did Riley know where Buffy worked? The LJ theory’s explanation is that he was spying on her when she was having sex with Spike on the lawn and noticed her DMP uniform. First of all, she was wearing a *coat*, and it's pretty obvious she's wearing a turtleneck sweater underneath it - not her uniform. I don't know when and where she changed, but she's not even carrying it with her. So, how did he know? Riley works for the government/military – and a pretty powerful, secret (I think… that wasn’t quite clear post-Initiative) branch, in fact. It’s pretty easy for the government to figure out where a person works. That’s the great thing about this country – we all gotta pay taxes, including Buffy and the Doublemeat Palace, and hey, the government controls the IRS. They also have the FBI, who could probably figure out where Buffy works (I mean, if they knew about my pot-smoking college roommate…). The point is, Riley has plenty of resources for finding out where Buffy works. He doesn't need to have been spying on her, and thus, wouldn't have seen her with Spike.

 

But, the first logical place for Riley to look for Buffy would be the Summers home. Furthermore, in all of the sex scenes between Buffy and Spike, how many have had such an *incredibly* long, long-shot? It does give me the specific impression that *someone* was watching them.

9. Why does Riley send Buffy and Sam to look for the nest in a graveyard when the eggs are supposed to be kept frozen? Actually, he didn’t give them specific instructions on where to look. He just said, "Find that nest." Also, presumably, the Doctor can’t *control* the Suvolte demon, what with it being a supposed man-eating terror and all.

 

"Man eating terror," eh? Why is it that there happens to be no casualties of the demon while it's in town? Why is it not attacking people? We see people get attacked on this show all the time by all kinds of demons, so why is this demon so exceptional? It's within several feet of many innocent bystanders, and yet, only knocks about inanimate objects. No one else finds this weird?

 

 

13. "[Spike] says he's just holding the eggs for a friend." Uh… what friend? The LJ analysis points out that Spike "is loathed by every demon in town who isn't Clem." Since Clem is, as far as we know, also not an international arms dealer, I think we’re pretty clear Spike is lying.

 

Spike isn't loathed by every demon in Sunnydale. Clearly, he doesn't have an abundance of friends, but there are demons in that town still willing to do business (or play poker) with Spike. Futhermore, knowing that Spike *is* a demon killer, entrusting the eggs with him is a good bet, since he'd protect them if another demon came along to steal them.

1. "what if...Riley's entire point for coming to Sunnydale is to break up Spike and Buffy?" How did he know Buffy and Spike were together before he got to Sunnydale? If Buffy’s closest friends didn’t know, I can’t imagine that Riley, all the way in Central America, would know. Finding out where she works is one thing. Finding out who she’s sleeping with? Definitely harder.I think, despite their tendency for sex in public places, Buffy would go to great lengths to make sure that no one knew about her relationship with Spike.

 

I don't think his entire motive was to break up Spike and Buffy- more like the shock from hell from him when he initially arrived, which I still think was when Buffy and Spike were having sex on her front lawn. I think they (Riley and Sam) were tracking the Suvolte, Riley sees it as a good reason to check on his ex, who is also the woman he still loves, and sees Spike getting it on with her out in the open. And as for Buffy going to great lengths to keep the relationship a secret, huffing and puffing on the front lawn where little sis can hear *and* see is not such a bright idea.

I don't believe Spike is lying about holding them for someone. It's possible he hadn't been paid since he's a middleman. It still doesn't explain why he didn't try to explain his behavior at the end as trying to get money to help Buffy. Because frankly I think it would have helped his case as opposed to "petty evil for the sake of it."

 

Spike doesn't know about Sam- he thinks he's already loss to the soldier boy "come home" again. He doesn't see the point, and Buffy choosing Riley's side (and punching him a few times in front of the wanker) definitely doesn't give him warm and cozy feelings on their relationship at that point, so he probably figured, "why even bother? She won't believe me anyway. I'm just an evil, soulless thing, right?" The first thing he says to her was "Thought you'd be snogging with the soldier boy," or something like that.

Okay- what's next? I think that eppy was a whole bunch of BS in disguise, well, I mean it had a point, but was disguised as B.S. intending to make Spike look "evil and opprotunistic."

 

 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 14 2007 06:48 am   #2Eowyn315

Well, Zoe and I just kept going on the other thread, so I'll probably be repeating myself somewhat.

Just because Riley is currently taken, he' still in love with Buffy. And though he can't step in, being married and all, it still doesn't change the fact that Spike is *officially* out.

Wait... huh? Are you implying that Spike=LBJ (the one who's out) and Riley is potentially Nixon (the one who moves in)? Because that's what it sounds like... but that's the complete opposite of the metaphor. Riley is LBJ, and was tossed out in season 5 because he didn't have his ear to the public (i.e. didn't know what Buffy wanted), or however Todd put it. Spike (Nixon) is now "in" and Riley/LBJ is pissed about it. The Kennedy/Angel predecessor just cements that.

But, the first logical place for Riley to look for Buffy would be the Summers home.

Right... and I said in the very next section that it's entirely possible that he *did* go there, and no one was home all day. That doesn't mean that he was watching them the night before. The camera angles are interesting, but I wouldn't say it's proof of anything.

"Man eating terror," eh? Why is it that there happens to be no casualties of the demon while it's in town?

I actually responded to this one in the other thread. I think it boils down to it just being a crappy demon. We've had a lot of demons where the effect just didn't work, and even though we were *told* how dangerous it was, it really didn't look it. I think they thought "property damage and screaming, but unharmed, people" was the easiest way to pull off this demon... I also think it didn't work.

Spike isn't loathed by every demon in Sunnydale. Clearly, he doesn't have an abundance of friends, but there are demons in that town still willing to do business (or play poker) with Spike. Futhermore, knowing that Spike *is* a demon killer, entrusting the eggs with him is a good bet, since he'd protect them if another demon came along to steal them.

Zoe pointed that out on the other thread (that he does have other friends), though I still think the most likely motivator is money. As to the second part - interesting thought, though I think most demons would kill another demon for the right price. But I still think there's an argument that Spike is the *worst* person to entrust the eggs to, because the probability that Buffy would find the eggs is much higher if they're someplace she goes frequently (like Spike's crypt).

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 14 2007 06:48 am   #3Scarlet Ibis

 I don't know that I agree with your characterization of Riley. I think he's a straight shooter - I don't see him as conniving, and though I agree that he hates Spike, I don't see him as being out for the pain. He's always been a quick kill kind of guy - he's an Iowa farm boy, he doesn't have that darkness that likes torture.

Riley can't bring himself to actually kill Spike, so he goes for the pain. How does one just happen to acquire a plastic woodgrain stake anyway, and for what reason would one need such an object besides the torturing of vampires, if not one specifically?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 14 2007 06:57 am   #4Eowyn315

Riley can't bring himself to actually kill Spike, so he goes for the pain.

I think, in season 5 at least, part of the reason he can't kill Spike is the same reason Spike doesn't try to kill humans... he's gotten used to him. Buffy's insistence on not killing Spike has forced Riley to be around him - and even though he violently dislikes Spike, I think he's started to see him as a person, and not just a "hostile." (Separating himself from the Initiative probably also helped with that.) Riley would love to kill Spike, just like Xander would, but neither of them do because Buffy has made it clear she doesn't want it.

So, Riley's only option is to scare Spike - but it doesn't work, because as I pointed out, they end up drinking together. Riley just doesn't have it in him to prolong the fear. As soon as Spike realizes he's not dead, he knows that Riley's too weak to actually kill him, and Riley totally caves. 

Also, in the midst of all this "Riley would go for the pain" talk, let's not forget what Riley actually said when he staked Spike: "Stay away from her. Or we'll do this for real next time." So, why wouldn't he "do it for real"? Why would he toy with Spike and try to hurt him when he promised that he'd kill him?

And where does he get a plastic wood grain stake? Maybe the Initiative? Seems like the kind of thing they'd have around for God-knows-what purposes. Riley could've snagged one, just in case it ever came in handy.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 14 2007 07:02 am   #5ZoeGrace

Scarlet, That's a good point on Number 13.  Spike is like the underworld's underworld with his demon killing.

And I totally agree about that weirdass long shot.  What was THAT about?

Good point about Spike thinking Buffy was out "snogging the soldier boy"

Eowyn,

Not to keep going with my "zomg conspiracy there is no doctor!"  But the fact that no one would trust Spike who knows the SLAYER with the eggs, to me proves there is no doctor.  We know Spike isn't the doctor.  Why in the frilly heck would the doctor give the eggs to Spike?

Why would any international arms dealer for any reason stow his eggs with someone else without alerting them to proper temperatures especially?  What purpose could he possibly have?

Further, Why would the doctor give the eggs to someone else who would give them to Spike?

Why wouldn't "the doctor" just take them straight to the foreign military powers?  You would think there would be some kind of a plan for pickup.  It really makes no sense that he would involve a middleman, and if he did, it would be a middleman he trusted.

What is the likelihood Spike has a "friend" like this.  Especially if you think no one but Clem likes him?  ZOMG we've missed it this whole time.  Clem's the doctor!  

Scarlet, yeah, Riley has already shown precedent on going for the pain and not the kill.

Eowyn, I think Riley was all talk on the "we'll do it for real, next time"  If he drops into sunnydale and kills Spike, then Buffy's gonna know it was him.  This way he can leave sunnydale the hero who saved her from herself.

Jul 14 2007 07:15 am   #6Scarlet Ibis

Okay, let's just say I was a bit confused on the LBJ/Nixon metaphor... I totally didn't study that era in U.S. History five years or so ago. 

And I agree with Zoe- the demon world knows that Spike is in alliance with the Slayer, so why would the Doctor entrust the eggs with him in the first place?

Riley could've snagged one, just in case it ever came in handy.

Why would it come in handy beyond reasons of torture?  And what would be an excellent way to torture Spike at that point in time?  Take away the one person he loves and cares about.  And Riley succeeds, driving the metaphorical stake home.  Then he gets to fly off and leave Buffy and her relationship in shambles, looking like an awesome GI Joe hero with the wifey in tow.

The camera angles are interesting, but I wouldn't say it's proof of anything.

But we never see camera angles like that *before,*  and it does seem as if the camera is from across the street.  I think it's more than interesting- it seems to be implying something.  It was so far away from the two of them... they've never done that before without a reason (the extreme long shot in s4 of Buffy, Anya and Harmony) or maybe a fight scene, but there was no logical reason to make such an artistic call here, unless it was implying something...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 14 2007 07:27 am   #7Eowyn315

Zoe, I think the circumstances surrounding Spike are problematic enough to indicate that there was no Doctor... however, I'm not convinced that Riley would have or could have orchestrated the whole thing before he got to Sunnydale. 

Although, I must say, "Clem as international arms dealer" would make a very funny fic.

If he drops into sunnydale and kills Spike, then Buffy's gonna know it was him.

Good point... but if Riley knew about Buffy and Spike before he got to Sunnydale, and the whole mission was just a ploy for Riley to get revenge anyway, why couldn't he just go in, stake Spike, and leave without ever seeing Buffy? Then, she'd NEVER know it was him...

This way he can leave sunnydale the hero who saved her from herself.

Do you think Buffy sees it that way? I definitely don't. I'm unclear whether Riley expects her to see it that way. The crux of his goodbye speech seems to be "you're better than this" - which, oddly is the same thing Spike said to her, like, three episodes ago. I think Buffy is coming to the revelation that she's using him - and maybe Riley is a catalyst for that (since he prompts her "tell me you love me" bit) - but I think it's a revelation she's been slowing coming to since the end of Dead Things.

Also - this is something I was just reminded of when I rewatched the episode tonight - when she breaks up with him, she calls him William. Anyone want to venture any thoughts on that, in the context of what we've been discussing? I think it's interesting that, in the midst of this "Spike is evil" nonsense, they give us Buffy referring to Spike in a very human way, and evoking the image of the innocent love-struck poet. Quite the juxtaposition with "international arms dealer," lol. Possibly has something to do with the Doug Petrie connection, since he *created* William, in a sense. And... now that I think about it... Spike as the "fool for love" would make sense if he's lost everything because of Buffy, if he had in fact done it for Buffy, and ended up getting his home blown to smithereens for his efforts. It's a very physical representation of what Cecily did to William emotionally.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 14 2007 07:44 am   #8Scarlet Ibis

I saw it as her wanting him to take her seriously.  Instead of "No, I mean it this time Spike!" a softer "I'm sorry, William" let's him know that she means that it's really over.  Then of course, she walks into direct sunlight where he can't follow...

My god, he looked so crushed- so broken... I was there with him emotionally that season.  He was just so... vulnerable.  It's bad enough she had to destroy his home, with Riley no less... Argh. 

Well, what do you know?  The bitch actually apologized...

Pardonez, parle-vous, ma francais.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 14 2007 08:45 am   #9Maggie2

Hey guys, Lots of interesting stuff on an episode that probably doesn't deserve the effort.  We agree that Spike can't be an international arms dealer.  Certainly it's possible he'd hold eggs for a friend and/or for money.  But what bugs me about this episode is that it portrays Spike as unbelievably stupid about the only thing that matters to him: Buffy.  The eggs can only come between him and Buffy.  I mean, he's holding them in the basement of the crypt where they have sex.  What's he planning on doing if/when she comes by looking for a quickie downstairs?  He's a terrible liar. 

But it's worse.  If Spike knows what the eggs are, then he's got dangerous things in the basement of the crypt knowing that Buffy could come by at any time.  (Not to mention that he lives there himself).  If he doesn't know what the eggs are, he still has to know that Buffy, who never ever gives him the benefit of the doubt, is going to jump to some horrible conclusion about them if she comes across them. 

I suppose we could say that he had a deal to hold the eggs for a very short period of time, and was hoping that he'd get lucky and that Buffy wouldn't be by his crypt during that period.  And maybe he'd earn enough money to help her out.  But surely he knows that she wouldn't take money from him if he got himself a legitimate job, let alone if he just handed her some cash from an unnamed source. 

So why would he risk the relationship that means everything to him, in order to hopefully get some money that she isn't going to take anyway? 

So we have an elaborate plot that makes Spike look (to me) more like an idiot than a diabolical mastermind.  Blech.  This was the guy smart enough to know how to hunt down and effect a cure for Dru.

The other gaping hole in the logic of the episode is Buffy's reaction.  Either Spike did something Really Evil.  In which case, she should have done more than just break up with him.  Maybe she can't bring herself to stake him -- but order him out of town?  Why not?  She's going to walk away from a guy who in her mind is convicted of trafficking (either as the mastermind or as a middleman) in horrifically dangerous demons?  How is that a feather in her cap as hero? 

Or Spike didn't really do something Really Evil.  In which case, Buffy's copping out and using a flimsly excuse in order to dump him.  Maybe what really turns her off is the discovery that he's a drooling idiot. 

Nothing here is flattering to anybody.  And there are no repercussions.  We don't see Buffy treating Spike as though she has new evidence that he's actively evil again.  Indeed, her one invocation of the incident comes in Normal Again when she throws it out to Xander and Willow as an excuse for talking to him -- i.e. she herself treats it as a device, and not a fact.

'Tis a muddle.  And since the egg affair has no impact on anything that follows, I feel free to treat it as a non-event.  In effect, it never happened. 

The Riley conspiracy piece is fun, but not convincing -- for the reasons Eowyn gave.  My own course is to ignore the episode as a massive brain fart from the writers.  And since they themselves ignored it in subsequent episodes that seems fair enough.  Buffy was going to work out a reason to dump him sooner or later. And all the episode does is serve as a place holder for whatever the proferred reason was going to be.

Jul 14 2007 09:00 am   #10ZoeGrace

hehehe Eowyn, I'm totally wearing you down! woo hoo. :) :P  

I'm not sure whether Riley could have worked all that out or not, I just figure, if Spike isn't the doctor (and it makes no sense to say he is) then anyone who actually WAS in international arms dealing wouldn't be giving the eggs to Spike.  So we're left with no doctor.

Which means either Riley got some bad information, or Riley set him up.  But if Riley got bad information it's a terribly huge coincidence that Spike has these eggs in his crypt.

As to "why not just blow in, stake SPike and never tell Buffy." Um...because he doesn't get to play the hero that way.  This way he gets to rub his life in Buffy's face.  Show her what she could have had if she'd picked him.  I don't think Riley would pass up an opportunity to show her he's the better man.  Because I think he really did always suspect Buffy had a little bit of a thing for Spike.

Maybe Riley wants to "be" her hero rather than just being "seen as" her hero.  I'm not seeing this necessarily as all a lie.  I think he thinks he's rescuing her, and if she gets to see what she missed, well so much the better.
 

But I don't buy captain whitebread, cornfed Iowa good old boy.  I don't think he's that nice of a guy really.  I mean let's not forget the vamp whores.  And let's not forget the Jealous boyfriend routine he pulled everytime Buffy had to go do something Slayer-y, especially once his enhanced strength was gone, as well as the ultimatum after the vamp whores.  

Maggie, I think Buffy's copping out.  I think she knows he's not the arms dealer too.  I think she also knows he's not friends with the arms dealer.  If she thought he was, she'd have kicked him out of her town.  I don't think she could stake him unless he did something unignorably world ending like Acathla.

In fact, i think back in Season two Angelus could have happily been chowing down on the populace indefinitely if she didn't have to see it and he hadn't gotten the bright idea about the big rock demon.

Jul 14 2007 06:22 pm   #11Eowyn315

I saw it as her wanting him to take her seriously.  Instead of "No, I mean it this time Spike!" a softer "I'm sorry, William" let's him know that she means that it's really over.

Good point, especially since he tries to brush her off at first as "I've heard this tune before."

Then of course, she walks into direct sunlight where he can't follow...

I don't know if you saw this, Scarlet (I think it was in the comments on the LJ post), but that wasn't in the original script. We were supposed to stay on a close-up of Spike and his crushed expression. Buffy walking into the sunlight screams of someone in the production process making the decision that Buffy needed more light/dark symbolism, and that walking into the sunlight means she's on a brighter (better) path now that she's ended things.

Maggie, I agree with you about Spike and the eggs being a problem - and actually, despite my intense hatred of this episode prior to this discussion, the fact that Buffy might have caught him never really occurred to me as one of the many things wrong here. But I don't think Buffy's reaction is all that problematic. I think she knows he wasn't the Doctor - the way she talks about it so lightly at the end makes it sound like she knows he was only a bit player in whatever was going on. And she's let her boyfriends slide on evil things before (Zoe mentioned Angelus). That's her weakness - she could *never* kill Spike, unless he tried to end the world or something. She might have told him to leave town, but I don't think she even has the strength for that.

I don't think she breaks up with him because of the eggs. It's not her "flimsy excuse" for dumping him. She dumps him because she's realized that she's using him, and she doesn't want to do that anymore. I think she would've done it even if he hadn't had the eggs.

And there are no repercussions.

Sadly, that's pretty much the theme of this season. AYW is nowhere near alone in that regard. Think of all of the big emotional moments and revelations that have no follow-up. Giles and Willow's confrontation in the kitchen about her magic - and then Giles just leaves, without a concern for how Willow might be going down the wrong path. Buffy blurts out that she was in heaven, the Scoobies mope for one scene, and then everything is right back to the way it was before she told them. Buffy and Willow have this big thing about Willow's magic when Buffy realizes she's addicted - and then Buffy barely shows a concern for Willow's state after that. Buffy beats the crap out of Spike and leaves him for dust in the alley, and the next episode it's practically like it never happened.

As for Riley setting Spike up (and in turn, Riley's character), since Doug Petrie does actually like Riley as much as he likes Spike, I think the most likely angle is that he was trying to set up an episode where both of them are trying to do what they think is best, even if it's a little ethically gray. Riley convincing Buffy that Spike is evil "for her own good" is a little ethically gray. Riley setting Spike up from the beginning, I think, makes Riley too conniving and evil to be sympathetic. I don't think we're supposed to dislike Riley in this episode - of course, we weren't supposed to dislike Riley for most of seasons 4 and 5, but that didn't stop us! :)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 14 2007 08:15 pm   #12Nobodys Girl
After reading the entire thread, I've come to the conclusion that there's only one explanation: The writers wrote the episode at 2 in the night after eating 25 silces of pizza, drinking 152 cans of beer and chatting with Andrew Wells on IM for 2 hrs.
We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone. -- Orson Welles
Jul 14 2007 08:16 pm   #13slaymesoftly

Hee! I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if the writers (and Joss) had had any idea that so many years later fans were going to be picking apart each episode, they would have put more thought into it!. LOL  Although, the boards at the time being what they were, they all had to know that their every move and word was being scrutinized, still, I doubt they had any idea that comments about inconsistencies and discrepancies weren't going to be short-lived and quickly forgotten.  It would be kind of a cool feeling, actually, to know that something you'd written was living on long after the series ended and the actors moved on to other things.  Even if was living on because the fans thought that you'd royally screwed up. LOL 

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jul 14 2007 08:56 pm   #14Maggie2

Slayme -- It's a measure of how good the series really is that it's worth all the careful scrutiny.  And the overall quality is what makes the not-so-good moments leap out that much more strongly.

Eowyn -- I think there's a different sort of non-repercussiveness going on here.  Giles fails to follow through on his concerns about Willow's magic, and we end up with her trying to end the world.  The plot point definitely doesn't get lost there.  Or, the Scooby's reaction to Buffy's revelation about heaven is minimal -- and her distance from the group remains a constant throughout the season.  Again, the plot point isn't lost.  The theme of the season is the disconnect between the Scooby's, heavily fueled by their habit of sweepoing unpleasant realities under the rug.  Even when they *have* to look at them, they are pretty anxious to call it 'fixed' and move on.  That's what we're shown in the examples you mention.  By contrast, in AYW, we supposedly learn that Spike was involved one way or another with trafficking in eggs that are so deadly international arms dealers want them. No ripple effect. 

I think you point to the best way of making sense of this -- which is that Buffy realizes pretty quickly that Spike couldn't have known what those eggs were or something like that.  My problem is that we can't have it both ways.  If this episode is supposed to be evidence that Spike is really evil, then Buffy needs to react more strongly to the supposed evil.  I agree she's never gonna stake him.  But "that's just you" doesn't quite cut it.  If she caught him draining a human she wouldn't shrug and say "that's just you".  If we agree that Buffy doesn't react more strongly because she knows that Spike didn't realize he was trafficking in deadly eggs, then we can't point to the episode as evidence that Spike is really evil.  Buffy herself doesn' think he's really evil.  So we have to pick.  Either Spike is really evil and Buffy's reaction is way off.  Or Buffy's reaction makes sense, in which case the episode doesn't advance the case for Spike's evil-ness.

Totally agree that none of this is why she finally breaks up with him.  Though I suspect we disagree on the why (you being more sympathetic to Buffy than I!!!).

Jul 15 2007 05:17 pm   #15Eowyn315

Either Spike is really evil and Buffy's reaction is way off.  Or Buffy's reaction makes sense, in which case the episode doesn't advance the case for Spike's evil-ness.  

Here's my hypothesis - it was *supposed* to advance the case for Spike's evilness, but failed to do so because Buffy doesn't take it seriously. The same sort of thing happens with the AR - if we're supposed to see what Spike did as such an evil thing, if *Buffy* thinks of it as such a violation, why does she turn around and take Dawn right to him for protection? I don't think there's any question *that* episode was meant to show Spike's evilness. But it seems like every time they try to make Spike evil, there's always mitigating circumstances that somehow make it understandable or excusable. Really gives the impression there were two dueling forces behind the scenes, the Spike-lovers and the Spike-haters, you know?

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 15 2007 08:56 pm   #16Spikez_tart

 *Buffy* thinks of it as such a violation, why does she turn around and take Dawn right to him for protection?

Spike's rape attempt is "human" and not "vampire" evil.  He's in his normal human face when he tries to rape her.  His anger is directed solely at Buffy and in some way she must understand that she has contributed to what happened.  She takes Dawn to Spike because there is no one else, he has a chip in his head and can't hurt Dawn and somewhere in that thick skull of hers, she knows that Spike can be trusted. 

I'm not sure if this is true, but I don't think we see Spike in vampire face for the entire season and not again until Season 7 in the bar scene where Anya sees that he has a soul. 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 15 2007 10:12 pm   #17ZoeGrace

We see Spike in vamp face several times in season 6,  and not just when he's slaying demons.  When he has the argument in the alley with Buffy in "Dead Things" he goes to game face.

Also, I don't think he was angry at all during the AR, he was desperate for Buffy to reciprocate his love, but I don't think any of that was done out of anger in any sense of the word.  If it was anger the sex would be meant to hurt her, but it was meant to make her feel what she feels with him.  It's desperation, not anger.

Jul 15 2007 11:16 pm   #18GoldenBuffy

I agree Zoe, just look at his face. He's pleading with her with body language as well as through the eyes. He just wants her to open up and to let him in, to hear him out, to see him and what he thought they had as real. It wasn't anger, hence no bumpies.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Jul 15 2007 11:43 pm   #19slaymesoftly

I third that. I never saw AR as anything but frustrated desperation.  And I suspect Buffy realized that also, hence the taking Dawn to him for protection rather than a stake for retribution.  Not generally a big fan of "she was asking for it"  or "it was my fault" kinds of excuses for sexual attacks, but in this case, I believe she had every reason to understand his motivations and forgive them.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jul 16 2007 02:09 am   #20Scarlet Ibis

Not that it needs to be said, but I fourth that, lol.  Spike wasn't angry at all- he only gets angry when he gets back to his crypt, and realizes what we almost did (though he had no intention of doing so).  Okay, on with more responses...

And she's let her boyfriends slide on evil things before (Zoe mentioned Angelus). That's her weakness - she could *never* kill Spike, unless he tried to end the world or something. She might have told him to leave town, but I don't think she even has the strength for that.

She couldn't kill Spike even when he wasn't her boyfriend (yeah, I know, they were gonna bring Spike back in s4, so they couldn't kill him), let alone the fact that she has emotional ties to him. I don't even see her stabbing him to send him to hell.

I don't think she breaks up with him because of the eggs. It's not her "flimsy excuse" for dumping him. She dumps him because she's realized that she's using him, and she doesn't want to do that anymore. I think she would've done it even if he hadn't had the eggs.

I do think she uses the eggs as a B.S. excuse to dump him. She was waiting so long for someone to tell her that it was wrong (mainly Tara), and when Riley finally gets to (indirectly) say "Bad, Buffy- Spike's evil," she gives in, and dumps him. And then, we learn she isn't even happy about it. In "Normal Again," she's patrolling in Spike's cemetery, near his crypt. When he finally shows up, she pretends like she's busy. When he stops her, and asks "did you cry?" her back is to him, but she's like "What?" as if she's been caught- she thought he was referring to the breakup, and she looks guiltly (as in yeah, she was crying about it), but then Spike clarifies that he was talking about the wedding. I think he missed it though- the fact that she almost let it slip that she cried over him.

And that kinda pisses me off too, btw- how come we see her cry over Angel several times, and look sad over Parker, but we get to learn of her misery of not having Spike around (even if it was her own doing) through a slip up that I'm willing to bet a lot of you missed in the first place? Forgive me if I'm wrong on that last bit- the part about you guys not noticing it (and if you thinks its not, look again). Season six gave me tons of pause for thought when it first aired when it involved a scene with Spike and Buffy or Spike...

and then Giles just leaves, without a concern for how Willow might be going down the wrong path.

I kinda understand what Giles' reasoning was- he couldn't just sit around, wasting away supervising them and telling them "no, that's wrong" all the time. Especially since they were going to do what they wanted to regardless of what he said. We see this as the years pass on- Giles says no, reprimands, and the children do what they want anyway. He probably just said "the hell with it," and got on with his own life. At least he comes back...

Buffy and Willow have this big thing about Willow's magic when Buffy realizes she's addicted - and then Buffy barely shows a concern for Willow's state after that. Buffy beats the crap out of Spike and leaves him for dust in the alley, and the next episode it's practically like it never happened.

Well, Buffy does remove all magical temptation from the house- even stuff that was her mom's, so I'd say that is concern (though going cold turkey wasn't the best idea in the end, but what else could they do?) Willow does the honor system, and keeps her promise to stay away until Tara's murdered (huh- turns out she doesn't even need herbs, funny urns and stuff to call on mystical spirits or turn her eyes black).

I don't think Buffy saw Spike again till her b-day party, though Spike does bring it up at the party. Even then, she doesn't apologize for it. However, what makes it weird to me is that no one bothers to ask Spike about his fucked up face- not even a "Gee Spike, what demon did you get into a fight with? Owe more kittens or something?" Nothing. That made no sense, considering Xander, Dawn and Anya are more than likely to point out stuff like that.

Riley setting Spike up from the beginning, I think, makes Riley too conniving and evil to be sympathetic.

I think the writers did do that ep, AYW, to make Spike appear "evil," and when they realized they failed, in comes SR. Anyway, Riley's had it in for Spike ever since s4 when he realized that Buffy was aiding and abedding "a hostile-" and not just any hostile, one that wished her dead. And he can see that Buffy more than just tolerates Spike. In "Out of my Mind," when Buffy mentions staking Spike in the beginning cause they were bored or whatever, I have no doubt in my mind that Riley would have went through with it had Buffy given the A-Okay. He thinks she has things for vamps. Sure, Dracula had a thrall, but that doesn't explain Angel, or why Spike is still around. Riley, unlike Xander, was not oblivious. I think when he loss the power of the Initiative juice in s5, he did feel, to an extent, that Spike was his competition, or at the very least, a potential threat. But he doesn't have it in him to kill Spike (though I think Xander might have if Anya hadn't stopped him), because he can't defend himself. Had Spike not had a chip, he would have tried to stake him, as he tried to stake Angel in s4.

She takes Dawn to Spike because there is no one else, he has a chip in his head and can't hurt Dawn and somewhere in that thick skull of hers, she knows that Spike can be trusted.

Not true- Dawn could've went to a friend's house. Willow wouldn't have gone around looking for Dawn- she had important things to do.  The only time she confronts Dawn is when she's standing right in front of her.  But that's not the point- that was to prove that Buffy still wanted Spike's help (and more importantly, his presence), because the whole season, he was the one person she went to when there was a problem.  Furthermore, when Xander asks her about her decision in taking Dawn to Spike, she says he *won't* hurt Dawn before she even mentions that he can't. 

And, Buffy wanted a reason to see Spike.  When Clem says that he would be gone for awhile, she looks crestfallen, and even asks if he said when he'd be back.  Oh yeah, geek is my middle name...

 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 16 2007 06:29 am   #21Eowyn315

Spike's rape attempt is "human" and not "vampire" evil.

I don't think it really makes a difference... if someone tries to rape you, human, vampire, or otherwise, you *don't* let them babysit your little sister! Even with the chip in Spike's head, I'd question Buffy's judgment in leaving Dawn with him - IF it had been a "normal" rape attempt. I think the fact that she does still trust him with Dawn is a big indicator that it wasn't normal, and that it's not just viewer sympathy for a character we happen to like. But of course, that completely undermines the "Spike is evil" message they were trying to get across.

Not generally a big fan of "she was asking for it"  or "it was my fault" kinds of excuses for sexual attacks, but in this case, I believe she had every reason to understand his motivations and forgive them.

You know, I think that's one of the things that pisses me off about this scene (one of many, let's be honest). I absolutely detest the "she was asking for it" excuse for sexual assault, because NO ONE deserves to be raped or assaulted. So, it drives me absolutely crazy that they've set up a situation where you actually can blame Buffy for driving Spike to do what he did... because it completely gives credence to the "she was asking for it" excuse that is so emotionally damaging to *real* rape victims.

I do think she uses the eggs as a B.S. excuse to dump him. She was waiting so long for someone to tell her that it was wrong (mainly Tara), and when Riley finally gets to (indirectly) say "Bad, Buffy- Spike's evil," she gives in, and dumps him.

I don't think it was the eggs, though. She *knows* he's not the Doctor, and she explicitly says it's not about the scheme. I *do* think that Riley played a role in her decision to dump him, but that could've happened even if Spike hadn't had anything to do with the eggs. I think it's the shame of being caught sleeping with Spike and Riley's "you're better than this" speech that prompt her to dump him. (And I'm sure Riley would've given the speech without the Doctor thing... he already thought Spike was evil way before this.)

And that kinda pisses me off too, btw- how come we see her cry over Angel several times, and look sad over Parker, but we get to learn of her misery of not having Spike around (even if it was her own doing) through a slip up that I'm willing to bet a lot of you missed in the first place?

I think maybe they were uncomfortable showing her crying over an "evil, soulless killer" and a dysfunctional, unhealthy relationship. But I think their conversation at the wedding - when she admits she's jealous of Spike's date - is meant to show that she does care about him and miss him.

In "Out of my Mind," when Buffy mentions staking Spike in the beginning cause they were bored or whatever, I have no doubt in my mind that Riley would have went through with it had Buffy given the A-Okay.

That seems to contradict the "Riley didn't have it in him to kill Spike" and "Riley would go for the pain, not the kill." It seems weird that losing his "superpowers" would simultaneously make Riley hate Spike more, but want to kill him less...

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 16 2007 06:44 am   #22Scarlet Ibis

 

That seems to contradict the "Riley didn't have it in him to kill Spike" and "Riley would go for the pain, not the kill." It seems weird that losing his "superpowers" would simultaneously make Riley hate Spike more, but want to kill him less...

I mean, if Buffy were to initiate such a thing, he wouldn't have a problem with it cause it's her job/duty to kill vampires anyway, but Riley does have morals, and I don't see him harming a "defenseless creature."  I think it did make him hate Spike more, only because now he especially didn't have Spike's physical strength (though Spike couldn't fight humans anyway, I mean in regards to demons), and would be less useful to Buffy on patrol, whereas Spike would not be.  Riley was then viewed as more of a liability, which was weird considering how many patrols Xander went on...  Anyway, I'm sure that Riley would have loved to have killed Spike, but would never act on it just cause Spike couldn't fight back.

 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 17 2007 03:16 am   #23Spikez_tart

 She takes Dawn to Spike because there is no one else, he has a chip in his head and can't hurt Dawn and somewhere in that thick skull of hers, she knows that Spike can be trusted.

Scarlet:   Buffy can't take Dawn to a friend's house - knowing what she knows about all the evil that lurks around Sunnydale.  She has to take her to someone who really can (and really will) protect her.  I agree that she isn't thinking about the chip, but that Spike cares about Dawn and will take care of her. 

She is upset when Clem tells her that Spike left town, without even telling her.  Maybe if he stuck around, she would have forgiven him.  Instead, by the time he gets back, she's hardened in her anger, no doubt prodded by Xander. 

I didn't mean to imply that Buffy "deserved" to be raped, but that by indulging in rough sex with Spike and not establishing a line of acceptable behavior, and also by never beinig honest with him, she has no way to stop him when it becomes necessary. 

Also, she says she doesn't love him and doesn't want to be with him, but then she's jealous of the girl he brings to the wedding and stricken when he schtups Anya, so he comes to the conclusion that she is denying her own feelings and he only has to do the thing he does best (sex) and she will come around again.  Things get out of hand, as they so often do with Spike.

 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 17 2007 04:01 am   #24Scarlet Ibis

I definitely think Xander had a *huge* hand in convincing Buffy and Dawn how horrible and what a monster Spike was (especially since Dawn repeatedly compared how great Spike was, and how great Xander wasn't before Xander rubbed the "attempted rape" in her face in order to shut her up).  I do think she would have talked to him about it, forgiven him and maybe even apologized had he actually been there.  Which would make for an interesting one shot... Hmm... I have to ponder that.

I think... the problem with SR is that people keep trying to compare Buffy, and her situation that we've seen from point one, with anonymous, real rape or attempted rape victims.  They should not be brought into the equation- keep the topic and the (fictional) facts on the realm of the show, and not on RL.

And in that regard, yes, Buffy provoked the situation, and Buffy specifically had it coming.  That fear, and her moment of "weakness," (though I still don't buy it- she waited on stopping him.  After crying and begging, her powers all of a sudden come back, and she isn't so wounded anymore?) was what Spike had been going through for the majority of the season.  She only got a taste of the misery he'd been dwelling in because of her.

 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 18 2007 12:46 am   #25Eowyn315

I think... the problem with SR is that people keep trying to compare Buffy, and her situation that we've seen from point one, with anonymous, real rape or attempted rape victims.  They should not be brought into the equation- keep the topic and the (fictional) facts on the realm of the show, and not on RL.

I think the problem is that the writers tried to make us think that it was a "regular" attempted rape, like what would happen to a woman in real life, even going so far as to make Buffy weaker in order to seem like a genuine victim. And that's what pisses me off - that they wanted it to play like a real life rape, even though the circumstances are so different that it barely makes sense to call it an attempted rape.

Also, in light of James' Fangoria comments, I think it's even more disgusting that they made him play a rapist. Lovely renewed hatred for Marti Noxon.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 18 2007 11:21 am   #26Guest

Yep, yep, yep........I mean, duh, you take a situation that was originally a woman trying desperately to fix the relationship if they just screwed one more time, and make it a man on screen? When the *character* would never carry out a standard rape situation? Yeah....don't let Marti write TV anymore!!!

And how blind was every single person there, that they couldn't see that James was having a hard time with the scene?! The guy's face is an open book, even if he's not trying to be.

CM

Jul 20 2007 01:58 pm   #27Spikez_tart

 I think... the problem with SR is that people keep trying to compare Buffy, and her situation that we've seen from point one, with anonymous, real rape or attempted rape victims. 

Exactly right, Scarlet.  The writers really muffed it on this one.  Then, they try to bolster their stupidity in Season 7 (Never Leave Me) by having Spike imply that it wasn't the first time that he's forced a woman to have sex: 

SPIKE
No, you got off easy too. (stands) Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you— (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry.

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 20 2007 08:27 pm   #28Scarlet Ibis

The "Cause it's not worth it if they don't cry" leads me to believe that was something that was told/taught to him- probably by Angelus.  But torturing victims, drawing out their pain really isn't Spike's thing, so I don't think he did it in abundance.  Was he capable of it? ("You have know idea what I'm capable of") Sure.  But did he do it often, and for pleasure like some other vamps that we know?  I don't think so.  That wasn't something that he chose to do on a regular basis, IMHO.  In the early years, he did what was taught to him, to prove himself as well as to impress Angelus, like with that whole "stick your hand in the sunlight" thing.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 21 2007 04:41 am   #29Guest

Yeah, I also think that was an "Angelus years" thing. Which was 18 years of mayhem, so.......lots to feel guilty for. 

CM

Jul 21 2007 03:35 pm   #30slaymesoftly

In addition to it being something from the Angelus years (although Dru is pretty nasty herself, when she's in the mood), at the time Spike said that, he was trying to get Buffy to stake him.  So, it could also easily have been an exaggeration or even a complete smokescreen.  He may well have been talking about Angelus rather than himself.  He was just trying to get her to understand how dangerous he could be so that she would dust him.  

On the other hand, we don't know (or, I don't know) how much of the "Spike would never rape" is canon and how much is fanon.  I think the writers were too inconsistent about everyone's background for us to make a call on that.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jul 21 2007 03:43 pm   #31Guest

Very true, very true...

CM

Jul 22 2007 06:16 pm   #32Spikez_tart

 So, it could also easily have been an exaggeration or even a complete smokescreen. 

I think Spike is telling Buffy the truth in that scene, and I don't think he's exaggerating just to get Buffy to kill him.  Spike was a bad bad bad guy and he can't push it all off on Angelus.  Angel sticks William's hand in the fire, but William holds it there despite excruciating pain in order to prove how tough he is.  (Also, that he wants to have sex with Angelus.) 

If you take away the thorough going badness that was Spike, then his redemption becomes meaningless and Buffy's actions - that she doesn't want to be involved with him - are inexplicable.  They both know he was terrible.  Their issue is to what extent Spike has changed and whether that change is permanent or just until his leash is off. 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jul 22 2007 11:29 pm   #33Eowyn315

I always thought Spike's insinuation of raping girls in Never Leave Me was sort of a retcon.

I always saw Spike as a "don't play with your food" kind of vampire. Angelus was the one who saw killing as an art, the one who tortured his victims before he killed them, and Spike mocked him for it. Spike liked mayhem - he'd rather kill ten people really quickly than one really slowly. I mean, look at the situations he finds himself in - in the FFL flashbacks, he's starting brawls, he attempts a massacre in School Hard, he arranges for an all-you-can-eat buffet in Lie to Me - always quick, easy killing with a high body count. When have we ever even seen him put any thought into a kill, other than Slayers? In fact, the one time he threatens to torture anyone is Willow in Lover's Walk... and he gets *bored* before he actually hurts her. He doesn't even have the patience to torture Angel himself when he wants something... he has to hire someone else.

I felt like the line in Never Leave Me was two-fold - first, it "proved" Spike's history as a rapist, as though to justify Seeing Red. And second, it emphasizes how evil Spike is, to justify him needing the soul.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 23 2007 10:42 pm   #34Scarlet Ibis

I agree, E.  Especially in "Destiny," William was too hung up on Dru, and keep her by his side and away from Angelus to worry about other women.  Although, we also see that he does think that torture can be funny in that same ep, but I agree- he's too impatient to take the time to do it.  Look how he kills the Slayers, which is really is greatest kills, and some of the "best moments" of his unlife- he kills them fairly quickly, and doesn't have to.  The Chinese Slayer- he didn't have to drain her, cause this is twenty years after he was turned here- he *knows* the trick how to drink "just enough, so that she'll still cry..." and so forth, and yet he doesn't.  It isn't his style.

(Also, that he wants to have sex with Angelus.) 

Gonna have to *vehemently* disagree there- Angelus wanted to have sex with him.  However, I do beleive that he at times (particularly in the beginning) sought Angelus' guidance and attention (probably amplified cause of his alienation from his peers as a human, and lack of father figure, and the loss of his mother), and yes he cared for him, as they come to care about each other much later.  Homoerotic UST in s5 of Angel?  Most definitely, but I still don't think that William wanted to have sex with him... It just didn't make any sense at that point in time.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jul 24 2007 12:26 am   #35Guest

Agreed. I think it might have been retconning for how Spike was post Angelus, and at least partially true for the Angelus years. I can see a William that doesn't care possibly taking women as he drained them, if he found her intriguing, but she's probably close enough to death that the rape turns into necrophilia fairly quickly. I'm sure he had to be curious about a warm screw at least once, since Dru was all he knew to begin with. Wanting a warm woman was normal as a human, so....

I can definitely see him torturing someone if a) there's something personal in it, b) they hurt Dru, c) Dru or Angelus really egged him into it and he didn't want to lose face by walking away. A spot of violence always cheered him up, but it's not like torture would turn his stomach. It was just primarily about patience.

CM

And yeah, for William, Angelus was a mentor and a brother, but wanting to have sex? When he's still got a new thing with Dru? Nuh-uh.

Jul 24 2007 01:56 am   #36Eowyn315

Although, we also see that he does think that torture can be funny in that same ep

I think that was less about the torture itself, and more about wanting to be like Angelus. I like Caro's reasons why he would torture, though even the first one is shaky (there was something personal in torturing Angel in In the Dark, and he still got someone else to do it), and I can't see him torturing just for torture's sake. I don't know about the rape/necrophilia thing. I think he was so enamored with Dru, I can't really see him being interested in another experience... except maybe 40 or 50 years down the line, when her cheating on him started to bug him.

I agree with you - I don't think he wanted to have sex with Angelus... but I do think he loved him. In a father figure/role model kind of way, except more passionate than that. I think the UST in Angel s5 is mostly about two people who've known each other forever, and so have this intimate awareness of each other. Sometimes it makes them hate each other... but sometimes it makes them really close. They really are like an old married couple.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 24 2007 09:14 am   #37Guest

Well, I would be willing to make the "personal" exemption for family. If it was personal and not family who did it, I think all bets would be off.

Jul 24 2007 11:41 pm   #38Eowyn315

Hmm... I'd say the fact that it's Angel is what makes it personal, in that particular instance. I mean, the ring was important to Spike, but once he got his "little red hen" rant out of the way, he got over it pretty quickly. On the other hand, I can't think of anyone Spike would rather torture (for any reason) than Angel at that point. Granted, he's family, but I think Angel having a soul made it easy for Spike to ignore the family connection. Plus, I imagine there's gotta be some hatred and resentment from the way Angelus treated him, that torturing Angel would seem like pretty good payback. And yet, Spike doesn't even bother to do it himself.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 25 2007 01:11 am   #39Guest

Spike, IMO, didn't want to torture Angel himself. I think he wanted it done, but for whatever reason (ahem), couldn't seem to do it himself.  It's not as if he didn't know how- I'm sure Angelus gave many lessons.

What was that he said about chainsaws?

Lol

~Scarlet

Jul 25 2007 03:05 am   #40slaymesoftly

Eowyn, is the fact that Angelus tortured or was otherwise rotten to Spike canon? Other than Angel's anger at him when he was a fledgling and getting them in trouble, and the flaunting of his relationship with Dru.  I don't remember much  that would indicate that he was as physically abusive as depicted in most fan fic.  Spike himself calls Angel his "yoda" and they share some fun memories during season V of Angel.  I've always kinda leaned towards Angel's having been the head of the family, and therefore maybe an authority figure that Spike felt duty-bound to annoy as much as possible, but not an enemy of his family until after he got the soul and left them.  The submarine episode indicates that they aren't too crazy about each other, but other than Spike's "you're still a dick", I don't remember anything very specific that would indicate a long-standing animosity. Anyone?

Clearly they don't get along once Spike has come to Sunnydale, but I'm not sure what that's based on other than Angel = good, Spike=evil.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jul 25 2007 03:15 am   #41Eowyn315

No, Angelus torturing Spike wasn't canon... but I think what he did with Dru in season 2 was probably torture enough - and probably still fairly fresh in Spike's mind when he went to L.A. Maybe he wouldn't have bothered with torture just for that (I think helping to kill him and taking Dru back was satisfying enough), but when the opportunity to torture Angel arises, don't you think he'd take the chance to pay him back for stealing Dru, and all the tormenting while he was in the wheelchair?

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 25 2007 03:17 am   #42Scarlet Ibis

I don't think that Angelus tortured Spike.  I think in s2, the animosity was the fact that Angel switched sides, but other than that, pissing contests aside, they cared about each other.  They were family, and I think it meant something to both of them.

I also think that Spike has some sort of... abandonment issues, and Angel did in fact leave them.  I'm sure every time they ran into each other up until Sunnydale that Angel pushed them away, but that was mostly because he didn't know how to deal with them anymore.

I know that Darla initially wasn't meant to stick around, but I think, had she not had guns, that Angel wouldn't have killed her then.  Setting her and Dru on fire, sure, but I don't think he's too keen on killing his family unless absolutely necessary. And when I say family, I mean just the three- Darla, Dru and Spike.  Also, I think the same applies to those three as well.  They're connected.

Edited: Oh, and I think it hurt more, the Angelus sleeping with Dru, because Spike wasn't his usual, physical self.  And Angelus was cruel, mocking him and so forth, but I think that had do with being trapped behind the soul for so long.  He wasn't the Angelus that Spike remembered, exactly.  More insane.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jul 25 2007 03:32 am   #43slaymesoftly

Quite true, there was a good bit of mental cruelty in canon - mostly related to Dru - so I guess that could have helped Spike build up a good dose of animosity.  I suppose Angel was constantly balancing his soul and, once he'd been put on the path to redemption, his desire to be good, against the pull of his "family".  Clearly, we see in AtS when Darla is back and human, that she still has quite an effect on him.  And in season II, when he first sees Dru, he makes no attempt to kill her - just tells her to take Spike and leave.  If he was really all hot to be redeemed, you'd think he might want to rid the world of the rest of his family while he had the chance. But he doesn't. 


I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jul 25 2007 04:08 am   #44Eowyn315

I think the family dynamic is interesting... Angel clearly struggles with the loyalty to them, as slaymesoftly pointed out. And Spike clearly has a familial attachment to Angelus in the beginning, and Angel after they're both souled. But it seems like in between, when Angel has the soul and Spike doesn't, all bets are off for Spike... he has no remorse about killing Angel, family be damned. I think it's definitely an abandonment/betrayal thing.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 25 2007 02:39 pm   #45Guest

Yeah, if I were Angel, it'd be really hard to kill my family even though they're evil. His memories with them, in context, are good ones, and he wasn't close to his human family before he was turned...  Angel loves them, even though he doesn't like it now with the soul. Hate the sin, not the sinner, basically? If they make him choose between them and someone else he loves, then we get the Darla situation, but otherwise........he's a lot more of a softie then he's ever been comfortable with.

CM

Jul 25 2007 11:53 pm   #46Eowyn315

Is it a surprise to anyone that I think Spike's reaction to family is actually more interesting than Angel's? lol

That's sort of what I was trying to say before... Angel's reaction makes sense, because even though he has the soul, he's still torn because they're his family. But Spike, on the other hand... he tries to kill Angel several times, with not a shade of remorse. It's as though Angel having a soul completely invalidates the family connection - Angel is no better than a stranger to him. It just makes Spike's decision to get a soul that much more interesting... did his opinion of the soul change over time, or was he willing to become a stranger to himself to give Buffy what she deserved?

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 18 2007 04:14 pm   #47nmcil

 

I don't think it was the eggs, though. She *knows* he's not the Doctor, and she explicitly says it's not about the scheme. I *do* think that Riley played a role in her decision to dump him, but that could've happened even if Spike hadn't had anything to do with the eggs. I think it's the shame of being caught sleeping with Spike and Riley's "you're better than this" speech that prompt her to dump him. (And I'm sure Riley would've given the speech without the Doctor thing... he already thought Spike was evil way before this.)

Sorry I missed the original discussion but just wanted to add this - I think the NIXon/LBJ metaphor is a good connection for this episode and series theme.  nixon we no was all about watergate and the huge cover-up (just like buffy's little dirty secret) and LBJ's ouster from power and position was public opinion (again, perfect for the foundation of buffy's dirty little secret) - buffy's use not only of spike, but giving up her power to feel and love whomever she wants and needs over the concerns of her social order.  Another wonderful and ironic connection with the lbj metaphor is that he had his wonderful project for human social advancement for the under previliaged and outsiders in our society - who more was a symbol of the outsider than spike?  That buffy's go seemingly into the light where he cannot follow is precisely where he ends up - being the light that destroys the uber-vamps, the rediscovered man and hero/warrior.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 23 2007 11:21 pm   #48Spikez_tart

Is there some reason why the "Doctor" can't be the same guy from Season 5 that Spike takes Dawn to see about raising Joyce from the dead?  In The Gift, Buffy knocks Doc off the tower, but I don't think we see him die or get squashed. 

Naturally, Spike would be pretty pissed at the Doc for cutting Dawn and opening the hell dimension for Glory, but he might go back to deal with the guy if the circumstances and the price was right. Or, if the Doc was blackmailing Spike for something. 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 23 2007 11:29 pm   #49Scarlet Ibis

I'm gonna have to say no dice to that.  If Doc wasn't killed in s5, I have no doubt that Spike went and took him out good and proper once he was physically able.  And if he managed to somehow get away and survive, Spike would never do dealings with him.  He was the reason that Buffy killed herself.  Dawn was pretty much safe from Glory.  Had Spike not still been healing from being tortured by the hell god, he would've been able to defeat Doc, but unfortunately, that wasn't the case.  That's why Spike feels partially responsible for Buffy having to jump.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 24 2007 12:33 am   #50Spikez_tart

Thoase are all good arguments except that no one in the buffyverse ever really dies.  Unless their agent gets too greedy.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 24 2007 02:58 am   #51Eowyn315

Much as I would've liked it (because, let's face it, Joel Grey could only have made things better if he'd appeared in that episode), I have to go with Scarlet in that Spike would never have done business with Doc, not after what happened in The Gift. And he says he was holding the eggs for a friend - he would never consider Doc a friend.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 25 2007 02:24 am   #52Spikez_tart

If he's holding the eggs for a friend - and we know that he's not exactly loaded down with them - who does that leave?  Not Clem.  Willy?  Don't see him as the international arms dealer.  One of the guys he played poker with - they were all card cheats like Spike.  Sharky is a possiblity, although he's no friend. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 25 2007 04:14 am   #53Scarlet Ibis

I think he meant friend in the sense of "someone paying me quite a bit to hold them for awhile."  And his poker buddies working the black market in the WMD sense- nah.  Demons who cheat at poker where the stakes are kittens...makes no sense (including Spike.  International arms dealer my ass).

And how come the adult Suvolte killed *no one*?  Thought it was supposed to be all dangerous and stuff- hell bent on killing humans and so forth.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 30 2007 03:10 pm   #54Enisy

Based on James's delivery ("I'm holding these for... a friend, who..."), I think we were meant to believe that Spike is the Doctor, nonsensical as that is. The least they could do would be to mention that he was trafficking the eggs to gather money for Buffy, as he hinted in "Doublemeat Palace", but I guess they were trying to make us side with Buffy in that episode -- at which they failed miserably. (If you've seen the dailies, you'll know they even cut James's crying in the breakup scene.)